Daily Kos

(Updated) A Simple Response to Those Blaming Blanco/Nagin

Thu Sep 15, 2005 at 09:38:47 AM PDT

I was just watching Howard Dean on (shudder) "The View", the disturbingly vapid "half a dozen gums flapping at once" show on ABC.

Dean held his own pretty well, but one of the hosts--the youngest one, don't know her name--is apparently a member of the Bush Koolaid Brigade, pouncing on Dean with her 8-month-old "outrageous statement" talking points.

When discussing FEMA/BushCo's completely botched response to Katrina, the Coulter Wannabe tried her best to do what the GOP always does in cases of Bush Administration accountability: shift the blame to the state & local officials.

Naturally, she threw the "Nagin didn't use the school buses" meme at Dean.

While his specific response was so-so (the buses were under the jurisdiction of the school board), and his general response was fairly good ("plenty of blame to go around"), I really wish he had simply stated it this way:

Me: "Do you live in New Orleans?"

Wingnut: "No."

Me: "Do you live in Louisiana?"

Wingnut: "No."

Me: "OK, then. Neither do I. I don't vote for Mayor of New Orleans, and I don't vote for Governor of Louisiana. I don't pay their salaries, and I don't pay their taxes. The mayor and/or the governor may have made mistakes or may not have made mistakes, but if they did, it's up to the PEOPLE OF NEW ORLEANS and the PEOPLE OF LOUISIANA to judge them, not you, not me.

"On the other hand, I do vote for President of the United States--and therefore, for those he chooses to appoint. I do pay his salary--and that of his appointees. I do pay federal taxes--which are spent on FEMA and other federal agencies. Therefore, I do have every right to criticize and question HIS judgement, HIS appointments, and HIS administrations' response."

This, to me, slams the door on the "blame the locals" crowd pretty well; instead of getting bogged down in a defense of Nagin/Blanco, it puts the focus back where it belongs: Bush and his admnistration MUST be held accountable for THEIR screwup *regardless* of any errors on the part of others. They're separate issues.

NOTE: I've never requested a Recommend before, but the responses so far seem to indicate that I may have actually come up with a Highly Useful diary for once in my life! So, for the first time, I'm Rec-begging :)

Update [2005-9-15 15:18:43 by Brainwrap]: Many, many people in the comments have been discussing the "2,000 buses" meme, which I mention in the diary solely to point out how irrelevant the "bus" question is with regards to the Federal response. However, for the record (and for those who don't feel like slogging through all of the discussion), the gist of the "bus" issue seems to be:
--First, there were NOT 2,000 buses; there were only 324, and 70 of these were apparently broken or otherwise unusable before the fact, leaving only 254 usable buses
--Assuming that they were able to hunt down enough drivers (either licensed or "voluntary") to drive all 254 buses, and assuming that they were able to fill up every bus with perhaps 35 people apiece (?), that means they *might* have been able to transport, at *most*, 8,900 people...assuming that the buses wouldn't have been washed away, stalled out, or otherwise caught in the storm.
--Even if that many people had been transported out of the immediate harms' way, they would still have been left to starve, dehydrate, be unmedicated or otherwise left to rot for 4-5 more days by the FEDERAL government, whose screwups are the point of order in the original discussion anyway!

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  •  nice! gotta love the federal system of government (4.00 / 4)

    I may not pay "their" salaries, but I do pay his...
    •  Regarding the "2000 unused buses" meme (none / 0)

      With no one to drive or coordinate the picking up of people, it couldn't happen--even if the 2,000 unused buses rumor is true.  They needed drivers to get those people out and the school bus drivers, or whomever they are supposing would've driven these possibly fictional buses, evacuated along with many other people that had the means (the money) to do so.
      •  Most of the drivers in my school district (none / 1)

        are women - predominantly SINGLE MOTHERS trying to make a living and still have some time with their children.

        I suppose La. should make a law that all bus drivers be prohibited from leaving the area early during the voluntary evacuation?

        The truth always matters.

        by texasmom on Thu Sep 15, 2005 at 10:47:09 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Actually (none / 0)

          where I live, county employees (does that include school bus drivers?) are considered First Responders.  I am required to report to the county seat for duty immediately in an emergency, no excuses.

          "A bad government is elected by good people who do not vote in elections." -- Unknown, pg 342, "The Shell Game" by Steve Alten

          by sockpuppet on Thu Sep 15, 2005 at 11:19:45 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  You dont need... (none / 0)

          "School Bus Drivers" to drive a school bus, they are not terribly complicated machines.  Anybody with a CDL would have no problem at all, and anybody who knows how to drive a straight line can get them going if they take their time.

          And all the monkeys aren't in the zoo, everyday you see quite a few

          by Ageredon on Thu Sep 15, 2005 at 06:35:02 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Not 2,000 (4.00 / 12)

        That number is wrong. Look here: http://mediamatters.org/items/200509120005


        As of 2003, the most recent year for which data appears to be available, the Orleans Parish school district, which operates New Orleans' public schools, owned only 324 school buses. In addition, a Louisiana Department of Transportation and Development profile of the New Orleans Regional Transit Authority (RTA), last updated May 5, notes that RTA owned 364 public buses, bringing the total of the city's public transit and school buses to fewer than 700 (assuming the fleet of school buses has not been dramatically increased since 2003), far fewer than the 2,000 Pruden claimed. Even so, Pruden's claim was repeated that evening on Fox News' Hannity & Colmes by co-host Sean Hannity, who insisted, "Two thousand buses sat; 2,000 school buses." The falsehood was echoed the next day by Fox news political analyst and former Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich (R-GA), who baselessly suggested that the city owned more than enough buses to help every poor person leave the city. And In a September 11 Pittsburgh Post-Gazette column, national security writer Jack Kelly asked, "[W]hy weren't the roughly 2,000 municipal and school buses in New Orleans utilized to take people out of the city before Katrina struck?"
        •  I was hoping that someone would bring that up (4.00 / 4)

          On the AF show today: out of the 324 they had, 70 were broken down, leaving 254 that could actually move. That's a 254:2000 truth to lie ratio. Newt Gingrich, Sean Hannity and all the usual suspects pushed the 2000 number.
          •  that's still a lot of buses (none / 1)

            over 7,000 people could have been evacuated if a plan was put into action to use those buses.  i'm not sure how we could criticize the federal government for not sending in troops and supplies from across the nation while excusing the local officials who let these buses sit in the parking lot.

            by excusing this waste of resources, we appear to be looking to score political points against bush rather than finding out how we could have saved more lives.

            •  I can't speak for anyone else, but... (4.00 / 7)

              ...I, for one, am NOT suggesting that we even bother "defending" the non-use of the buses, however many or few there were.

              The original point of my diary is that any errors on the part of Nagin, Blanco, or any other local/state officials should not detract from an honest appraisal of the federal performance, which was utterly pathetic at best, and criminally negligent at worst.

              •  one (4.00 / 2)

                suggestion. Brainwrap, at the end of the day, would it be possible for you to list the various point smade here and some other related diaries, and post a summary of the most potent/promising ones as an update, or even as a new diary if you check other diaries extensively?

                That way, people can circulate the best points around the blogosphere and even start some kind of a letter campaign?

                thanks for posting the diary.

                Just say NO to BAYH (for VP)! Here's why!

                by NeuvoLiberal on Thu Sep 15, 2005 at 12:12:49 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Heh...funny you should suggest that... (4.00 / 2)

                  ...I just finished a small update to this diary (see above) with a few of the more important "bus" related "bullet points".

                  I'll see about doing a more comprehensive summary tonight--I'm incredibly flattered at getting not just getting recommended, but all the way up to the top! A first for me on both counts!

                  Guess getting "front paged" would be too much to ask for lol...

                  •  summary (none / 0)

                    Guess getting "front paged" would be too much to ask for lol...

                    A powerful summary covering other diares might make it to the FP. DO this: at night, when you have more time, after you go through your diary for the "best suggestions", perform a search among all diaries for "nagin buses" (I was doing this on the web the first time I saw the story appear on drudge; then I tried to call the mayor's office to put out his immed. response to quell the crapola. couldn't get through, of course. look what it has blown into. looks like we just need to get down to the field and roll up our sleeves). really outrageous how the wingnuts have manager to spin  the buses into a catastrophic behemoth. bas****s.

                    I'll check the diary if you give an approx time when you might post your summary. I'll go over and give some feedback. sounds good?

                    Just say NO to BAYH (for VP)! Here's why!

                    by NeuvoLiberal on Thu Sep 15, 2005 at 12:31:45 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

              •  and there is a big smokescreen (none / 0)

                effort underway to blame and shame and cover up for the Feds. Come on, anyone with half a brain can see the Bushits ignored the calls for help. I know there are many with less than half a brain but don't let us fall for this crap.

                A society of sheep must beget in time a government of wolves. Bertrand de Jouvenel

                by Little Red Hen on Thu Sep 15, 2005 at 04:57:21 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  The busses (none / 0)

              And even if you can't get people on the busses...move the busses so they don't get ruined in the flood, and everything else on wheels for that matter.  I'm just guessing that school district is struggling financially like every other school district in the country.  Probably more so.
              •  Yep (none / 0)

                They had to stop paying salaries this week because they only have one payroll's cash in the bank.
              •  Don't Defend Nagin, folks... (none / 1)

                Let Nagin twist in the wind, folks.  First of all, the "numbers game" the G.O.P. blowhards is playing IS galling, and the truth SHOULD be pointed out - in due time.

                More importantly, though, we need to point out how many times this man's tried to bury Governor Blanco AND the Democratic party every time he's had a chance to PARTICIPATE with the party.

                Let's see... he endorsed Dubya's waterboy, Bobby Jindal in the last gubernatorial race here.  He not only endorsed, but CONTRIBUTED to, George W. Bush in 2004.

                I haven't exactly seen him speak out in support of Blanco in negotiations she's had to be FISCALLY tough on with (republican supporter) Tom Benson, the New Orleans Saints owner who benefitted from his "good ol' boy" buddy (former G.O.P. governor) Mike Foster with a sweet-heart deal.  The Saints get paid at LEAST $10 million annually from the state, along with all the concessions and parking and suite perks he's groveled for to "make ends meet" for the Saints.  And for that, the state gets the HONOR of his team playing in THEIR dome for next-to-nothing.  Oh, and the "team" has a yacht?

                Has Nagin stood beside the governor on that?  No.

                Has Nagin stood beside the governor when the White House was pointing blame at her?  No.

                Did Governor Blanco have jurisdiction over those buses, Ray?

                No.

                Fuck off, Ray.  Pardon my french, but he only "became" a democrat when he decided to leave the boardroom of his business to run for mayor.

                GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO DAWGS!! Sic 'em! WOOF WOOF WOOF WOOF WOOF

                by SouthernDemRon on Thu Sep 15, 2005 at 01:40:40 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  That barely puts a dent in 100,000 (none / 0)

              Aht's more, you would have had riots about which 7,000 out of the 100,000 got to leave.
            •  My understanding ... (none / 0)

              is that this had been brought up / discussed in the past and there were simple hurdles / questions like:

              • Where would the busses take them?  Concept, of course, being that people could go to Superdome with then resources coming in to help them as soon as storm was over.

              • Could this evacuation be handled / coordinated within the pressures of a last minute evacuation effort, which would almost certainly be the case for a storm evacuation?  NOTE: History of storms created great uncertainty over storm paths which, due to cost of 'crying wolf', drove logically to 'last-minute' decisions about mandatory evacuation.

              And, so on ... In retrospect, it seems clearly regrettable that there were not 5-7000 people bussed to perhaps ten separate evacuation centers 100 miles from the coast, with Red Cross support for all the evacuees in place when the busses arrived. This was a "failure" in terms of handling evacuation and seems an error in 'judgment'.  On the other hand, this seems to have been a 'judgment' call based on trying to make risk / benefit decisions.  (This is based on my limited understanding of what was in NO history re evacuation planning.)  

              On the other hand, Bush's continuing his vacation, strumming (incorrectly a guitar), eating cake with John McCain, failing to have DHS (and the rest of the government -- except the Coast Guard) go to General Quarters to rescue and help endangered Americans were all also 'judgment' errors. However, these errors seem more driven by combinations of incompetence and simply disregard for those American lives rather than 'analytically based' policy mistakes.  

              Again, words above are an analyst's view of the situation based on limited information in hand.

              •  some points to add. (4.00 / 2)


                Something I had left over from another discussion:

                So even if your optimistic 700 number is close to true:
                -an entire city should evacuate for a cat 3 storm (as it was in time period to be able to evacuate)
                -Every bus the city had was running well enough for a 3-5 hour trip?
                -What place could possibly handle all of those people? (NIMBY)
                -People are going to leave everything they have, including pets and valuables to the unknown of an abandoned and unprotected city.
                -How many buses does it take to evacuate a baby on a ventilator?
                -How much staff does it take to move a nursing home?
                -what are the logistics of providing food and facilities for a population of 35k, moving to an unknown destination?
                -how many bus drivers do you think the city had? could they use some random kid off the street? what would happen if there was an accident?
                -How do you collect and organize a population of 35000 in a day, get them to a central point and get them bussed out of a city?
                -what happens if the storm blows over, and causes little no damage?

                •  Pets... (none / 1)

                  "-People are going to leave everything they have, including pets and valuables to the unknown of an abandoned and unprotected city."

                  I wish someone would bring up the pet issue. Many people (myself included) would rather abandon their right arm than their pets. Fortunately for me - each time I had to evacuate, I was temporarily flush (just got paid) so I was able to not only hoof it, but also get a place to stay (many thanks to the wonderful, pet-friendly folks at La Quinta).

                  One place I ended up (still in the path, but farther inland) mentioned on their local newscast a list of shelters, then to my shock - listed where the PET FRIENDLY shelters were, too! Well, DUH! I'd be willing to bet you that the compiance with evacuation orders in that county is much higher than counties that force to to save yourself at the expense of your critters.

            •  Evacuated to Where? (none / 1)

              Getting people onto buses wasn't the only issue involved in evacuation. They had to be taken somewhere. See if you can follow this logical chain.

              Why did they have to be taken somewhere? Because the city might flood.

              Why would the city flood? Because of a hurricane.

              Is a bus a safe place to sit out a hurricane? No.

              Is an empty field outside of the flod zone a safe place to sit out a hurricane? No.

              Does a mayor have the authority to load tens of thousands of people onto buses and drive them into someone else's jurisdiction? No.

              Does a mayor have the authority to commandeer shelters outside of his jurisdiction to house tens of thousands of people during and after a hurricane? No.

              So what's the conclusion to be drawn? Buses alone weren't the answer.

              For a real evacuation, there needed to be people going door-to-door to get people who couldn't leave on their own out of their houses -- unless you planned on leaving elderly and infirm people behind. There also needed to be enough time to do that.

              The buses needed destinations either far enough away from the expected path of Katrina or sturdy enough to withstand the hurricane to house the people.

              If there weren't enough buses to take everyone in a single trip, there had to be enough time to make multiple trips to get them to safety. As we've seen, even without traffic problems caused by a general evacuation, getting people out of centralized locations like the Superdome and Convention Center took days -- once they actually started.

              That kind of effort needed state help at the very least. Considering the fact that a quarter-million Louisiana residents are now in Texas, one might expect that the coordination would have had to be at the federal level.

              You can't just stick people onto buses. That argument's a red herring.

            •  and where would they have gone? (none / 1)

              did FEMA tell nagin where to drive those buses?   was the astrtodome offered as a refuge BEFORE the Hurricane?  was there a plan as to where 7-10 thousand evacuees would go?   other then to higher ground to wait for the cavelry?

              nagin has absolutly no authority to just drive thousands of people to somewhere else and dump them there...he is the mayor of ONLY New orleans...

              i kept hearing WHY didnt he just bus all those people out....he did..he bused them out of immediate harms way...and waited for the cavelry...it never came....

              i am less interested in those school buses then i am in that bridge seperating the "haves" from the "gonna drowns" in NO....

              how many people could have crossed that bridge to some kind of safety if they had not been declared enemy combatants by their neighboring parish?

              every time you argue over the buses and nagin karl rove smiles...the arguement over nagin and the buses is roves RED HERRING...if he can keep america looking at the buses and blaming nagin he can tip the scales back to bush....we need to stop allowing the rove machine to control the debate..especially about katrina.

              The CONSTITUTION is MY Flag pin

              by KnotIookin on Fri Sep 16, 2005 at 04:26:42 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  Sounds like (none / 0)

            fuzzy math to me...

            I honor John McCain's military service to our country (but I have no intention of voting for him)

            by frsbdg on Thu Sep 15, 2005 at 12:00:15 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  And then there's still the question... (4.00 / 3)

        ...of where they would have driven them TO. Other than the Superdome and other shelters inside the city, Nagin didn't have the authority to send evacuees anywhere. The people who left did so because they had friends and relatives to go to or could afford hotels. Sure, after the fact shelters across the country are opening but it took a real look at the devastation to make them do that.

        conscietious objector in the battle of the sexes

        by plymouth on Thu Sep 15, 2005 at 10:53:23 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  exactly...where, prey tell, (none / 0)

          were these busloads of people supposed to go?  we know gretna's doors were closed...

          "Government, like dress, is the badge of lost innocence; the palaces of kings are built upon the ruins of the bowers of paradise." Thomas Paine, Common Sense

          by Cedwyn on Thu Sep 15, 2005 at 12:03:53 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  As you say, the busses are a meme (none / 0)

        True or not true, reasonable or unreasonable, just talking about the busses -- even if refuting the lies of the right -- still brings up the subject of busses and casts doubt on the locals (and away from the feds).  This is what BushCo wants.  If we talk, rationalize, argue about busses or otherwise discuss them, we're right on message -- Republican message.

        The diarist is absolutely right -- those of us not living in NoLa should concentrate solely on the Federal response.

        •  Disagree (none / 0)

          The Bus Thing is so easily disprovable (no drivers, nowhere to evacuate to)that any nut who tries should be made a fool of. Problem is, most of Nagin's defenders have allowed themselves to stumble and stutter when asked about it. Why? Not thinking, that's why.
          •  How much time do you have? (none / 0)

            When talking to a wingnut?  Wouldn't that time be better spent accentuating BushCo's failures than disputing an inherently false talking point?  I don't know, but talking about the busses feels the same to me as it does whenever anyone on the left says "death tax", "tax burden", "partial-birth abortion", etc., etc., etc.
          •  why? (none / 0)

            why were there no drivers?  because there was no plan to use these buses when the inevitable storm hit new orleans?  this is inexcusable and should be part of the independent investigation we are calling for.

            i've seen the footage of hundreds of school buses submerged in water.  that is not a meme, its a very powerful image that cannot be explained away.

            •  Troll? (none / 0)

              I'm not going to troll rate a response I disagree with to a post I've made.  However woos has only written two comments on dKos, both of which add fuel to the fire of the bus meme.

              And yes it is a meme.  A very powerful image that has been turned by the right into the very point you're making.  It can however be explained -- please look to the scores of comments to this diary alone that do so.

              My argument (and that of the diarist) is that even if there was no rational explanation, the despicable response of George W. Bush and his crony administration is something the whole country should be concerned with, whereas the response of the locals is of concern primarily to the locals.

              •  I gotta agree. (none / 1)

                Even if the mayor had disappeared - "poof!" into thin air - even if he had run screaming into the horizon, hands waving uncontrollably - that still wouldn't excuse the FACT that the President was Out To Lunch and completely unaware, that Condi was To Busy Vacationing To Care and Cheney was in an Undisclosed Location.

                It is NOT an either / or choice. No matter how everyone else's cards fall - Bush (et al) fucked up.  

              •  i have more (none / 0)

                than 2 posts here, although i'm not sure why they are not turning up.  however, i do tend to only post when i disagree with the common sentiment here and look for ways to improve and strengthen our stance.  accusing anyone who disagrees of trolling seems against the spirit of this community blog.

                I agree with everything that's being said about the bush administration.  i agree that the local government could not handle such a disaster on its own, but i take issue with those here who are making excuses for the city's inaction.  there were no bus drivers, there was no money to pay them, there was no place to bus people to.  These are all issues that should have been worked out BEFOREHAND. When katrina was spinning as a category 5 storm in the gulf, there was time to make these arrangments, even though they should have been dealt with long before.  Thousands of lives could have potentially been saved. period.

                in the immediate aftermath of the storm, the right tried to blame the victims for not evacuating.  we rightly pointed out that many of these poor citizens did not own a car and could not easily leave the city.  the obvious solution- BUSES!! but now we are declaring that it would have been impossible to mobilize a fleet of school and city buses in time.  so i am just pointing out that for the next time, we need to find a way to make this happen.

                finally, i don't agree that only locals who voted for their officials have the right to scrutinize their response.  every city on the east coast needs a hurricane evacuation plan, and we can learn from the failures of new orleans.  to say that local officials did everything they could in the face of this disaster will not help us plan for the next one.

                •  (sigh) I don't seem to be making... (none / 0)

                  ...myself clear:

                  I'm not saying that no one outside of New Orleans has the right to criticize the Mayor, or that no one outside of Louisiana has the right to criticize the Governor; I'm simply saying that for those of us out of the area, our PRIMARY responsibility and right is to criticize the FEDERAL response.

                  This does not mean that Nagin/Blanco get off scott-free, if indeed they did screw up; but as an outsider, my PRIMARY right is to find out whether those who are supposed to be working FOR ME did right or wrong--and it's pretty damned clear that they did wrong, bigtime.

            •  First, 7,000 possible evac'd (none / 0)

              doesn't put a dent into 100,000 w/o transportation.  Second, who gets to ride?  

              Third, and most important, do you want the Federal government to abandon YOU and your children if you have incompetent local and state officials? (which many of us do...)

            •  And in addition (none / 0)

              where would they go to?  For starters, which direction?  How far to go?  The H-3 wind swath from Katrina extended how far?  Do you drive straight North?  Go West or go East?  What if the direction you choose happens to be the direction the storm drifts after landfall?  Does anyone want to assert they would be safer in a school bus than a designated shelter?  You ever have to deal with a hurricane, woos?  Last year's round of 'God taking His vengeance out on Florida' (to paraphrase) left the hotels here in Atlanta filled with evacuees.

              And let's assume that you, the bus driver assigned the responsibility of a random busload, manage somehow to get them out of the storm path.  You can't keep them in the bus - obviously, there are no sanitary facilities in a school bus.  I don't know what may have happened in this particular case, but usually when a hurricane threatens, all motel rooms hundreds of miles inland are filled.  So where do the people YOU are now responsible for stay?  Do they have money with them?  If they did have the money for a motel to begin with, wouldn't they have left?  And while we're discussing money, how exactly are you going to buy fuel for the bus?  Put it on your own credit card?  Does anyone honestly believe the school districts would hand out a cash fuel fund?

              And even if you did find a motel with room for 45 people - what are you going to eat?  Again, are you going to be buying food for everyone on the bus?  Depend on the kindness of strangers?  I think we've all heard by now about the Gratna authorities' efforts to protect their own town.  Food and shelter my ass!  You ain't bringing that bus through our town!  

              These are just a few things that come to mind as I sit here sort of working.  Logistically, evacuating a city requires resources very few if any municipalities have at their disposal, which is the reason we have a national emergency response structure.

              No longer a Grand Party. Just an Old one.

              by EeDan on Thu Sep 15, 2005 at 02:21:16 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  you ask a lot of good questions (none / 0)

                and these are the things that need to be worked out when preparing an evacuation plan.  it was obvious that new orleans would face the need for a mass evacuation eventually, and experts should have been dealing with these issues long ago.  i refuse to believe that with all our resources mobilized, local and national, we could not have evacuated everyone who was willing to go.  so now that you've pointed out all the obstacles which need to be overcome, rather than throwing your hands in the air and saying there is nothing that could have been done to get people out, we should start pressing our politicians to come up with a plan for the next round.  

                yes, pressure should be on the federal government, and i am glad to focus most of my energy there. we need to counter bush's lame excuses, but we should also stop making similiar excuses for the inaction of local officials.

      •  The truth is... (none / 1)

        that there were only a couple hundred buses not 2,000.

        Moreover, in New Orleans hundreds of cops left the city.  Now, if hundreds of cops left the city, what's the odds that the bus drivers stayed?

        Anything but McBush

        by jpeskoff on Thu Sep 15, 2005 at 11:58:15 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  The easy answer to the busses theme is... (none / 0)

        When they had all the buses lined up, along with airplanes and trains, and with everyone pretty much located at only a few locations in New Orleans it still took them over 3 days to evacuate everyone.

        Fri to Mon if I remember correctly when evacuation was complete.

        And that was after they had time to OPEN the Astro Dome and some other areas to accomidate large numbers of people.

        I know that the images were horrible but the absolute best thing for New Orleans to do was to use those buses to take people to the superdome and other areas, which is what they were being used for. And quite frankly if we would have had better response to getting supplies and personnell in those areas they would have been much better off and I think everyone would agree that having them go to the superdome was a good idea.

        We need to keep focused on thet fact that this is a response issue and not an evacuation issue...

        What we do for ourselves dies with us, what we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. (Albert Pine)

        by laughingriver on Thu Sep 15, 2005 at 12:15:49 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  If they'd thought of it and planned (none / 1)

        accordingly.  They might have targeted the school buses for evacuating nursing homes and possibly hospitals.  Just figure out how many would be needed for that and arrange for the drivers to be assigned and assign the target to be evacuated.

        Then go through a dry (if you will excuse the expresion) run every year.  

        On the local level I do blame them for not getting past the "let them all get to the Superdome as a last resort" plan.  As we've seen, they didn't look at the situation widely enough.  I hope the ghosts of those abandoned old people haunt them for the rest of their day.

    •  we all pay (1.00 / 8)

      Look, we are all paying because people were not moved out.  Blaming the feds cause you can does not matter - there were 44 deaad in a nursing home, why didn't nagin bang door to door on those?
      •  What's wrong (none / 0)

        with a plan wherein the bus drivers are allowed to get their families onto the buses, then head out of town?  It just seems so damn logical.....oh, wait....I forgot we're talking about GOVERNMENT here....logical isn't in their vocabulary.

        Anyway you slice it, there was no way even 2,000 buses would have moved 100,000 people....even the huge luxury buses only hold about 50 people each.  Do the math.

      •  He did! (none / 0)

        The nursing home operators were offered busses, and also had a contract with ambulances. They refused all help and left the elders to drown. This is one case in which I think death penalty would have a positive effect. Shoot these people in a local stadium, and let the relatives hold the guns.
        •  Many frail elders have died. . . (4.00 / 2)

          . . during evacuations.

          Nursing-home operators are faced with an awful choice: load people on buses adn ambulances and almost certainly lose some of them (and get blamed), or ride it out (and most likely nothing will happen).

          They bet the levees would hold, and they lost. But they most likely knew that some of the people in their care would die if they evacuated them.

          "Have nothing in your houses that you do not know to be useful or believe to be beautiful." -William Morris

          by Robespierrette on Thu Sep 15, 2005 at 11:19:50 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Good point. Tough call. (none / 0)

            "A bad government is elected by good people who do not vote in elections." -- Unknown, pg 342, "The Shell Game" by Steve Alten

            by sockpuppet on Thu Sep 15, 2005 at 11:45:08 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Frail elderly.... (none / 0)

            bussed from the Gulf coast to Jackson Mississippi area died while power was out in Jackson MS and the heat rose.  Being evacuated was no picnic either.  Hinds County Sheriff McMillon assisted in evacuating people from a shelter to hospitals.  

            Seriously, this was a very bad storm, but they should have followed the mandatory evacuation orders at that nursing home.

            You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you mad. Aldous Huxley

            by murrayewv on Thu Sep 15, 2005 at 07:30:40 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  Nursing home deaths (none / 0)

        The nursing home where 34 patients have died was located in St. Bernard's parish, outside out New Orleans and clearly out of Mayor Nagin's jurisdiction.  Don't try to hang that one on him.

        That was a tragedy, and the nursing home operators have been indicted for 34 counts of negligent homicide.  If there was additional culpability involved, it was parish officials, not the mayor of New Orleans.

        •  Negligent Homicide (none / 0)

          Sounds to me that if that couple gets convicted of it a lot of our government officials should be found guilty too.....

          Chertoff and Brown for instance.

          The Permanent Republican Majority lasted about as long as The Thousand Year Reich

          by lawnorder on Thu Sep 15, 2005 at 01:23:38 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  are you nuts? (4.00 / 3)

        or just a troll? by your apparent newly-minted membership to dKos, I'm guessing Troll, but I might be mistaken.
        Therefore, I'm giving you a "1," because you're clearly not getting the point of this diary at all.

        It's not whether it matters or not.

        It's the fact that we CAN blame the Feds -- and should, because clearly, despite whatever mistakes others (including Nagin) might have made, the Federal Government, especially President Bush, Homeland Security Director Michael Chertoff and FEMA Director Michael Brown were all decidedly negligent in performing their duties as directed by the National Response Plan, and, therefore, should be held accountable for their transgressions.

        NFTT Progressively supporting the troops

        by Timroff on Thu Sep 15, 2005 at 11:25:14 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  For my time (none / 0)

          i have been volunteering to find housing for people.  If blaming bush did something to help people, i would.  
          •  Blaming Bush... (none / 0)

            I blame Bush for those babies and old people dying while they waited for help and FEMA turned them away.  
            He appointed incompetent FEMA and Homeland Security people and then ignored their failures while people died there.  You are forgetting- people were stuck in NO since Tuesday to Saturday before lots of help arrived.  To the extent they were stuck there, thats one question.  Once they were stuck, who could help call out the military and get help?  FEMA, that who.  

            Bush's WH staff had to make him DVDs of the news footage.  This man is numb from the neck up to the suffering that went on.  
            Thank God for the Coast Guard and the Louisiana Fish and Wildlife people who came to help.  And for the people who went out to rescue each other.  

            You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you mad. Aldous Huxley

            by murrayewv on Thu Sep 15, 2005 at 07:37:50 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Meant to add... (none / 0)

              These people are SO incompetent, blaming Bush was what it took to get rid of one of them.  They are still finding people there, stuck in their homes.  Don't bring me Chertoff if it floods in WV any time soon.

              You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you mad. Aldous Huxley

              by murrayewv on Thu Sep 15, 2005 at 07:39:53 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  Why didn't the vacationing President? (none / 0)

        You don't know much about management, do you?

        No longer a Grand Party. Just an Old one.

        by EeDan on Thu Sep 15, 2005 at 02:23:35 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Best Fram Ever (none / 0)

      Wow!  This is clearly the best counter to the Bush frame possible.  It focuses the local issues to LA and keeps the pressure on the Feds.  You should send this frame to Gov. Dean.

      Economic Left/Right: -6.25 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.51

      by Democratic Hawk on Thu Sep 15, 2005 at 12:09:20 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  hijacking a bit... (none / 0)

      but the plethora of mis-information in these comments makes me a little bit concerned about our position as the reality-based community.  With two young children and a full-time job myself, I have found it incredibly difficult to keep up with all the outsanding Katrina diaries.

      I wanted to provide a couple of links that I have found immensely enlightening.  A Boston Globe article which includes some information on the infamous buses (LA Nat'l Guard requested 700 from FEMA and got 100) and an interesting blog entry resulting from an excellent diary by Sharon Jumper on the Hurricane Pam Exercise.  This kossack was PART of the exercise and offers first-hand information with one of the conclusions being that FEMA over-promised what they could provide in the plan.

      -7.25, -6.87 You must work - we must all work to make the world worthy of its children. - Pablo Casals

      by peacemom on Thu Sep 15, 2005 at 12:30:08 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  What school buses? (none / 0)

    Oh you mean the 2,000 school buses bogus story?
    •  no the one that kid stole and drove to houston (none / 0)

      with all the evacuees where they arrested him for stealing...

      what ever happened to that kid?

    •  *GASP* (4.00 / 2)

      That is most certainly not a bogus story... Why, just yesterday I heard Sean Hannity talking about it... again.  If it's on Fox News, it has to be true, right?

      That, according to my dad anyway.  He and I have been at each other's throats since well before the election and things aren't getting worse.  He'll parse out his right-wing propaganda bullshit to me and I'll slap him back with facts which only pisses him off even more.

      So last night, he tried to hit me with that bus story.  Give me a break.  I sent him links disproving his little talking point and strangely, I never heard back from him.

      Yeah... the holidays are going to be fun this year, I tell ya.

      No tears to cry. No feelings left. This species has amused itself to death. ~ Roger Waters

      by Kevin in Long Beach on Thu Sep 15, 2005 at 09:41:20 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Keep Getting this out there (4.00 / 15)

      Form another Kos Poster, who corresponded with a local reporter  two days after the Disaster.  

      To Summarize,:

      1. those buses belonged to the NOISD (New Orleans INDEPENDANT School District) the Mayor had no authority over them.

      2. They WERE considered as a way to evacuate the City but FEMA rejected that idea. Instead the Comprehensive Disaster Plan call for opening large public buildings as shelters which FEMA then would supply

      They decided that busing was not feasible (4.00 / 12)

      Following is my correspondence with Mark Schleifstein, a reporter at the Times-Picayune.


      Date: 2005/09/04 Sun PM 07:19:42 EDT
      To: Mark Schleifstein

      There's been considerable discussion on right wing forums accusing Mayor Nagin of having failed to use the New Orleans school system's busses to evacuate people. This is part of what appears to be a general right wing attempt to shift the blame to local officials and divert attention from the Bush administration.

      I've read that the busses were owned by the Laidlaw Corporation, which bugged out early and took the keys, but I can't find any verification of this. Do you have any information? Most of the cover-your-ass talking points are surprisingly easy to refute, but this one is proving difficult to track down.

      Many thanks for any help you might be able to offer, and my heartfelt compliments and best wishes to you and your associates at the Times-Picayune for your literally heroic work covering this disaster.

      Mark replied:

      I don't, but deeply, deeply doubt that's what happened. The logistics of using buses for more than moving people inside the city to refuge locations was just impossible. How do you guarantee the bus drivers will be there?

      Everyone recognized that, and discussed it at length at the Hurricane Pam exercise in 2004. They were trying to find other alternatives, like Amtrak, National Guard trucks, guaranteed private bus service, etc. But nothing had jelled by the time of this storm, so they returned to the plan they've always had: refuge of last resort.

      The mayor made announcements urging people to go to collection points and be taken to the Superdome. If the dome had filled, they would have opened more buildings.

      Not enough people took them up on the offer.

      You also have to understand that the school system is a completely separate government agency from the city and the mayor has no authority to order school employees to do anything.

      The school system also is bankrupt and being taken over, school by school, by the state. The state emergency preparedness department was aware of this problem, as was FEMA, Homeland Security, the Red Cross, the Salvation Army, the corps of engineers, on and on and on. Nobody did anything. Placing the blame solely on a mayor is ridiculous.

      Mark Schleifstein
      Environment writer
      The Times-Picayune

      newsroom-l.net News and issues for journalists.

      by Jules Siegel on Tue Sep 6th, 2005 at 09:49:51 PDT

      and from furhter down inthe same thread:


      new] The planning was based on a complete evacuation (none / 0)

      It wasn't just a question of shuttling back and forth. Once the people were on the buses, they would be leaving the city and the buses would not be coming back. These would have been refugees who had no ability to obtain there own shelter and maintaining themselves in any way. So that meant finding shelters for them and feeding them. The FEMA ruled out tents.

      The decision to send them to local emergency shelters was based on the belief that national and regional disaster relief resources would respond rapidly. The situation in the Astrodome and the Convention Center deteriorated because of the failure of the federal, regional and state relief operations. Where was the cavalry? Where was the food? Where were the emergency generators?

      How about Iraq?

      I think the main issue is why the FEMA, which was aware of the discrepancies revealed by the Hurricane Pam simulation, did not knock heads together and force an adequate resolution. In general, the lack of leadership by the FEMA and the federal authorities is the most outstanding failure, whether in the original planning or the actual event.

      The right wing reveals this when they argue that it was all a local resposnibility.

      newsroom-l.net News and issues for journalists.

      by Jules Siegel on Tue Sep 6th, 2005 at 10:49:43 PDT

      This is Meme killer of the highest order.  Get it out far and wide.

      Knowledge is power Power Corrupts Study Hard Be Evil

      by Magorn on Thu Sep 15, 2005 at 10:10:18 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  True enough... (none / 1)

    I don't know much about the specifics of what Blanco/Nagin did or didn't do during Katrina. They are accountable to the voters in NO/LA.

    I do know W was on vacation golfing and hamming it up at a fundraiser while NOLA was getting thrashed. What kind of message does that send?

    Chaos: Not just a theory, its a way of life.

    by Agent of Fortune on Thu Sep 15, 2005 at 09:39:39 AM PDT

    •  messages (none / 1)

      Messages aside,

      The chain of responsibility goes like this:

      Local->County/Parish->State->Federal

      That's how it has always been in this country: we are not a top-down centralized state, we are a bottom up federal system.

      The mayer/city govermment is the first line; then comes the county (in some states the county government is 'strong', in other's its practically not existent), then comes the state government, and then the federal government.

      And really, as far as I can see, it's not job of FEMA to come in and dictate to all those levels.   It is FEMA's job to manage the effort though, and that is obviously not what happened here in NOLA and elsewhere.

      Just an FYI.

      •  FEMA (4.00 / 4)

        Does have the power to come in and take over a situation though.  They do not have to wait for the locals to speak up.  That's in the National Repsonse Plan that Bush signed in 2004.  

        Yes, the chain of command starts with the locals.  But Blanco declared a state of emergency which Federalized the issue the moment Bush acknowledged it.

        FEMA had the power but Chertoff/Brown decided to not use it.

        No tears to cry. No feelings left. This species has amused itself to death. ~ Roger Waters

        by Kevin in Long Beach on Thu Sep 15, 2005 at 10:08:44 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Then explain this (4.00 / 3)

        This

        Since my diaries tend to be Long I will summarize:

        This diary chronicles an action by the White House that directly contradicts all  the noise that has been made about local control and bottom up solutions.

        On the night of Tuesday August 28th, the White House bypassed all state and local authorities and directly called the manager of a regional power company and gave him marching orders:

        Shortly after Hurricane Katrina roared through South Mississippi knocking out electricity and communication systems, the White House ordered power restored to a pipeline that sends fuel to the Northeast.

        That order - to restart two power substations in Collins that serve Colonial Pipeline Co. - delayed efforts by at least 24 hours to restore power to two rural hospitals and a number of water systems in the Pine Belt.

        there's more in the diary, but what I want ot know is if they could do that for the OIL why couldn't they do the same for the people?

        Knowledge is power Power Corrupts Study Hard Be Evil

        by Magorn on Thu Sep 15, 2005 at 10:41:09 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  response (none / 0)

          there's more in the diary, but what I want ot know is if they could do that for the OIL why couldn't they do the same for the people?
          I am not suggesting that they are good actions, however, there are numerous federal powers relating to power, energy distribution, and pipelines in specific.  Legally, are you suggesting he was out of line?

          It was most likely in Bush's legal power to override all local and state officals if he so desired for all activity relating to the hurricane.  Maybe he should have.

          However, three points:

          1.  That's not how our country has ever been designed, or ever operated.   Maybe the time has come to investigate it?

          2.  There is no guarantee that in any given case the federal response would be better than the local+state one.

          3.  The primary chain of responsibility, should be, in my mind, flow from the people most aware of the situation and with most at stake.  
          •  You're implying (none / 0)

            with this:

            "The primary chain of responsibility, should be, in my mind, flow from the people most aware of the situation and with most at stake."

            that Gov. Blanco and Mayor Nagin didn't beg, plead and finally scream for help from the Feds after the first 24 hours and the full horror of the situation unfolded and became apparent.  I know they did, because I saw it happen on 24/7 news coverage, (watching  since before the storm even hit).

            What really galls me today is watching the governor of North Carolina be so "efficient" and "effective" against the "wrath" of  [the meek compared to Katrina] Hurricane Ophelia.  As if to show the world what a Republican governor would do, how responsible and effective a good governor is in these situations.  Oh, and how much in place he has all his First Responders, and FEMA, oh my lord, how much FEMA is just right there ready to take action at the first break in the cloud.

            Gimme an effing break.  But I digress...(constantly)

             

            "A bad government is elected by good people who do not vote in elections." -- Unknown, pg 342, "The Shell Game" by Steve Alten

            by sockpuppet on Thu Sep 15, 2005 at 11:56:17 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Correction: (none / 0)

              A thoughtful Kossack has emailed me to politely inform me that, (uh, duh) the governor of North Carolina is a Democrat, for all my rant in the foregoing there.

              Ummmm...well, so I thought NC was a red state.  It iz...its two senators are both Repubs.  

              But the governor still seemed to be putting on a dog and pony show, imo, about how easy it all is to be perfectly prepared for a hurricane to hit one's region of governance, and of how wonderful FEMA was being with all its total readiness, etc. etc.  Which I thought was pr to help soothe the public's jangled nerves into believing that "all problems are now addressed, nothing to see here, go back to sleep, move along."  

              But maybe I'm just still in cynical shock after the events of New Orleans after Katrina passed...

              Anyway, it's very good that NC seems to be spared much harm or damage from Ophelia.  That's always good news, regardless...

              "A bad government is elected by good people who do not vote in elections." -- Unknown, pg 342, "The Shell Game" by Steve Alten

              by sockpuppet on Fri Sep 16, 2005 at 01:30:45 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  Sad to say (none / 0)

          I hate to speculate how much of Bush's slump in the polls can be traced to national tragedies (and crimes) like New Orleans and Iraq, and how much to $3.20 gasoline.

          In addition to being in the oil companies' pocket, Cheney may have poll numbers showing that if gas prices go down significantly, Bush's approval rating will go up. Corporate media outlets no doubt already have their "Bush rebounds!" stories written, just in case. Heck, we saw as much during his momentary bounce right after the hurricane hit.

      •  Also (4.00 / 3)

        It's FEMA's job to provide greater resources when the scale of a disaster overwhelms more local authorities, not just to manage.  It's pretty clear that even if the state and local officials had done everything perfectly (meaning as perfectly as they could with the information they had, not perfect with 20/20 hindsight), Katrina still would have overwhelmed their capabilities.  The fact that they weren't perfect in no way lets FEMA off the hook.
        •  well (none / 0)

          Katrina still would have overwhelmed their capabilities.  The fact that they weren't perfect in no way lets FEMA off the hook.
          I don't think so at all.  If NOLA had of been 100% empty than this would be a different situation.  

          The question will come down to whose responsibility it is to evacuate the city.

          •  If we're going to discuss impossible scenarios (none / 1)

            If NOLA had of been 100% empty than this would be a different situation.

            If Nagin had also funded that Hurricane annihilation machine, this would be a different situation too.

            An equally likely situation.

          •  Once the Federal State of Emergency. . . (4.00 / 3)

            . . . had been declared, it was all Federal responsibility. End of story. And that happened prior to the hurricane's land-fall.

            This country has a National Response Plan, for any "Incident of National Significance", which includes this one.

            Under that plan:

            The President leads the Nation in responding effectively and ensuring the necessary resources are applied quickly and efficiently to all Incidents of National Significance.
            . . .
            During actual or potential Incidents of National Significance,the overall coordination of Federal incident management activities is executed through the Secretary of Homeland Security.
            . . .
            The Secretary of Homeland Security utilizes multiagency structures at the headquarters,regional,and field levels to coordinate efforts and provide appropriate support to the incident command structure.

            Here's an editorial on the NRP, which includes a link for downloading it (which I did, and yes, the Feds are supposed to step in and do something, even if the locals don't ask - and the locals were screaming for "everything you can give us").

            "Have nothing in your houses that you do not know to be useful or believe to be beautiful." -William Morris

            by Robespierrette on Thu Sep 15, 2005 at 11:36:24 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  Actually danheskett (none / 0)

        it IS FEMA's job (well actually FEMA's via Department of Homeland Security's Job)

        Read about the NRP

        Georgia10's Diary

        The Republicans have a fundamental problem with telling the truth - Howard Dean.

        by NYC Sophia on Thu Sep 15, 2005 at 11:41:27 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Well I'd hate to be Nagin right now (none / 0)

    Criminal charges already brought against the Nursing home owners for negligence.  I really don't think Nagin was anything short of extremely negligent in his mayoral duties, with or without the buses sitting there.   Bush is responsible for some of the response, or lack thereof...but I blame Nagin for not taking preventative measures BEFOREHAND.  And me not being a voter in New Orleans is really irrelevent to me being able to criticize him.  I think Dean is right when he says there is plenty of blame to go around.
    •  The real problem: no coordinator (none / 0)

      My base assumption is that Bush, Blanco, Chertoff, Brown, Nagin et al. really wanted things to go well in New Orleans and wouldn't really have played politics for the sake of playing politics if they'd understood the results.

      It sounds as if one of the big problems was that this is simply the first hurricane where a massive, whole-city evacuation was really justified. Wolf has been cried so many times before that people didn't take Katrina as seriously as they should have. Lesson: There won't be any lasting lesson here. People will do a great job evacuating for the next 2 or 3 hurricanes. If those hurricanes aren't Katrinas, people will go back to their old lazy ways.

      Another huge problem was that communications was wiped out so much worse than it ever has been before in the United States that the feds had no idea how to get things done. Lesson: have lots and lots of satellite phones lying around, lots of spare batteries and lots of bicycle-powered battery chargers. The reason that the TV people could communicate so well was that they used satellites.

      But the biggest problem was just that there was nobody in charge right from the beginning, and everyone mistrusted everyone else. Lesson: Federal and state officials should appoint a disaster czar for each state and 2 backups. Each of those people should have satellite phones. If a disaster strikes, the disaster czar springs into action and, for the first 24 hours, wields dictatorial powers and can waive almost any law, regulation, contract, etc. in the interest of saving human life. The disaster czar can tell the military, the National Guard, FEMA, etc. what to send where.

      •  umm (none / 0)

        If a disaster strikes, the disaster czar springs into action and, for the first 24 hours, wields dictatorial powers and can waive almost any law, regulation, contract, etc. in the interest of saving human life. The disaster czar can tell the military, the National Guard, FEMA, etc. what to send where.
        Sorry, but this sounds exactly like a governor, only with a fancy name.

        What you've described is exactly what the governor and lieutenant governor are supposed to do.

        •  Then make the gov the disaster czar, but (none / 0)

          make it absolutely crystal clear that the governor can make FEMA spend a lot of money, make airlines and bus companies move equipment around, can shut down or open up infrastructure, etc.

          The big danger is that this czar could be a REAL dictator, and that's why that person's super powers should last only a very short time, such as maybe 24 hours, or 72 hours.

          •  sorry (none / 0)

            I hate to tell you, but the governor has all of these abilities already in a disaster zone.  
            •  Then everyone needs to understand that better (none / 0)

              I guess another problem is that there have to be "prepackaged" disaster pills. In other words, if you have a hurricane that's so big no emergency response managers are around to manage, the affected area gets X. If the disaster is a nuclear bomb, the area gets Y. Etc. So that you don't have the situation where Brown asks Blanco what she wants and she has too little information, expertise or energy to give Brown a detailed answer.
              •  agree (none / 0)

                I agree about everyone being on board.

                Part of leadership - especially high (president) is letting your people know who is giving the orders.

                Bush should have been on the phone with Blanco when the hurricane was 24 hrs offshore and told her she had carte blanche with DHS and FEMA.  And the heads of DHS and FEMA should have been on the line at the same time.

    •  The preventive measure beforehand (4.00 / 2)

      was to fix the levees.

      They are federal levees.  Federally built, federally owned, federally maintained -- or not, as we now know.

      The fault, the main blame, was at the federal level before and after the flooding.

      Btw, I hope you don't live near a federal dam. . . .

      "Let all the dreamers wake the nation." -- Carly Simon

      by Cream City on Thu Sep 15, 2005 at 10:03:09 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  The plan for LA was approved by FEMA (none / 0)

      In April 2005.  The plan stated that the folks without cars would be bussed to the Superdome and stay there during the hurricane.  It also provided for emergency electricity generator to last 60 hours, and for food/water brought in by the National Guard.  That's what happened.  No one died in the Superdome or the convention center from wind, flying debris, collapse of the structure, or drowning. Maybe not the best plan in the world, but it worked.

      I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty, than those attending too small a degree of it. - Thomas Jefferson

      by ktxlib on Thu Sep 15, 2005 at 11:14:00 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  My response... (4.00 / 2)

    My response to the buses thing is this..."even by all estimates, assuming they had access to the buses (which is doubtful they were all working or had fuel sufficient to drive that distance to get them out of harm's way), you're still talking about only 10% of the people left in New Orleans after the mandatory evacuations.  And it still DOES NOT deal with the COMPLETE lack of any assistance between Monday night and Friday.  That had nothing to do with Blanco, and nothing to do with Nagin.  Zero, zilch, nada.  They should have been airdropping supplies to the superdome by Tuesday morning.  And that is FEMA, no doubt.  And it is that lack of a calvary coming that really got most people to start blaming gov't...and the fact they had to use helicopters for saving and had NONE coming to help with levees is inexcusable...  

    TexasDemocrat
    Giggity giggity giggity...Iraq's a Quagmire

    by TexasDemocrat on Thu Sep 15, 2005 at 09:44:56 AM PDT

  •  what timing! (4.00 / 3)

    You know, I was just going to ask in an open thread for a response to the wingnuts who blame the Nagin and Blanco. PERFECT!
  •  Excellent idea -- kudos. (none / 0)

    **
    •  My simple response (none / 1)

      "You think Blanco and Nagin bear some responsibility?  Okay.  Fine.  Nail them.  Knock yourself out.  Because responsibility doesn't dilute.  Nagin could be 100% responsible for the disaster, and Blanco could be 100% responsible for the disaster as well, and Bush would still bear every bit of responsibility for the disaster that he bears today.  

      "So go ahead and blame other people, but if you're only doing it to take the heat of your guy, you're wasting your time: there's plenty to go round."  

  •  a simpler response still (4.00 / 4)

    "There they go again."

    --R. Reagan

    "Do not offend the Chair Leg of Truth! It is wise and terrible."

    by section29 on Thu Sep 15, 2005 at 09:55:03 AM PDT

  •  'Scuse me, I'm not a winger (4.00 / 2)

    and I was freakin' frickin' out on Sunday, August 28th, when Nagin issued his mandatory evacuation order and then told people without cars to report to the Superdome with food, water, and lipstick with which to kiss their heinies goodbye.

    They didn't use the school buses, they didn't use the city buses, they didn't use the Amtrak train (which Amtrak offered gratis), they didn't use the planes. To stand behind Nagin on this simply because he is a Democrat is to put party loyalty above humanity.

    -9.0, -8.3. History is more or less bunk.--Henry Ford
    Henry Ford is more or less bunk.--history

    by SensibleShoes on Thu Sep 15, 2005 at 09:56:55 AM PDT