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UPDATE: there may be more to this story - East side levee bombed by the Army Corps of Engineers

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Wed Sep 07, 2005 at 04:33:17 PM PST

This from boingboing

10:57 Raw transcript of comments by NOLA evacuee Clara Barthelemy: "The 17th street levee was bombed by the Army Corps of Engineers to save the more valuable real estate in the city... to keep the French Quarter protected, the ninth ward was sacrificed... people are afraid to speak out... everyone who was near there heard the bombings... they bombed seven times. That's why they didn't fix the levees... 20 feet of water. Gators. People dying in water. They let the parishes go, not the city center. Tourist trap was saved over human life. A six year old girl was raped in here.. 9 year old boy killed. A man in the shower beaten. No hot food. No help for elderly."
That was from a IM chat Xeni had with Jacob Appelbaum. It is so far unconfirmed.

Xeni also reports that only certain media are being permitted in. Other are refused entry. Deaths and rapes are also happening and remember, this is the Houston astrodome we're talking about. Not the superdome

12:29 Evacuee Irvin Skinner: We have a curfew. We're being kept inside after 11pm. Forced to stay inside. They threw guns on everyone. Said 'come inside or your out of here'. Shoved guns, pointed them at adults. I'm a grown man, I have rights. This is an instituion to us, it's like a jail. I'm a middle class man with a home being trated like a criminal because I'm black. If we were white, we wouldn't have this problem."

It just never ends.
Update
Jacob Apllelbaum has filed his version on his blog. Here is an excerpt.

I have no way of substantiating the statements of those Jacob spoke to, but I present them here as a snapshot of first-person accounts. While some misinformation may be circulating as rumor among evacuees, let’s also remember that reports of deaths and violence inside the New Orleans Superdome and Convention Center were dismissed as “rumor” in early days by authorities before reporters proved them to be true.
I also note that Armando now has a post on the censorship of the media by Bush. Jacob Apllelbaum writes:
Is it irresponsible for me to write about things without being able to confirm them? I do not think so. I simply presented what I was told and asked by those same people to tell the world...
What I find most amusing is that it was dismissed outright as being impossible that someone would blow up a levee to save a city. Now that history has shown that this has been done before, something done in New Orleans around 75 years ago, I think it’s worth at least trying to get to the bottom of.

Boingboing also has an update to their story, this time from an LA Weekly article:
I met a man named Robert. He invited me to take a seat beside him on a cot pushed against the wall...
"After the storm," he told me almost as soon as I sat down, "they blew the levees up so they could flood New Orleans."
"We survived the storm," Robert went on. "We survived the wind and the rain. After the storm passed, the water started rising, and all you heard was 'Boom!' " The explosions, he said, were the levees blowing. "Ask any of these people. The hurricane wasn't that bad, but the opportunity came up."
It was a real estate grab, Robert explained - gentrification with a genocidal edge. And if he was more than slightly paranoid - he didn't want to tell me his last name, and grew visibly nervous when a white stadium employee began sweeping the floor within earshot a few feet away - his theory made a certain kind of sense, far more than any of the official excuses for government inaction.

I have also taken a lot of heat for relaying the information on boingboing and Jacobs blog. Some of that was perhaps justified, I wasn't as careful as I ought to have been. Well, that's how you learn, by making mistakes, I sure seem to be learning alot lately!

I do think this is a very important story and that it should not be marginalized. Us poor (I'm white and quite poor, BTW) and minorities are often simply dismissed due to political expedency. But when "events" happen in our neighborhood we know what went down, and we know why. We understand that we live in a racist and classist society and that we get screwed because we are poor or black or hispanic.

This accusation that the levees were blown for political reasons fits with an overall pattern consistantly persued by this administration. Indeed, it fits with the objectives outlined by many in the neo-con camp, with the past support of the Bush family of eugenics, and with the recent callous remarks
"We finally cleaned up public housing in New Orleans. We couldn't do it, but God did."

"God" had precious little to do with it. It was, in my opinion, deliberate and premeditated.
"Fuck Bush They Fucking Left Us Here Them Bitches Flooded Us . . . Them Bitches Killed Our People."

Tags: New Orleans, Army Corps of Engineers, levees (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 128 comments

  •  I don't believe that (4.00 / 7)

    Sorry, unless you can vet the hell out of it I refuse this 'info'.

    They wouldn't be able to control the fallout from this (or at least anticipate that they could).

  •  Bombing the levee? (4.00 / 2)

    Enough of this - its bad enough anyway but spreading this sort of stuff just makes it easy to dismiss everything else including the truth as crazyness

    -4.63,-3.54 If the people will lead the leaders will follow

    by calebfaux on Wed Sep 07, 2005 at 04:32:45 PM PST

  •  I used to watch the X-files... (4.00 / 3)

    One of their basic premises was that the easiest way to cover-up a truth, was to engender enough lies. Get enough theories and accusations going around, and no one will ever be able to discern the truths from the untruths.

    Be careful here. And if they were going to blow a levee to protect the French Quarter, it would have been the industrial canal going into the lower 9th ward.

    Study a map, and you'll see what I am talking about.

    Usually a candidate only has to run against one Party. Ned Lamont had to fight the entire CT Rep Party, and 1/3 of the CT Dem Party. No wonder he lost.

    by DeanFan84 on Wed Sep 07, 2005 at 04:33:13 PM PST

    •  Great (none / 0)

      "And if they were going to blow a levee to protect the French Quarter, it would have been the industrial canal going into the lower 9th ward."

      Now you tell us...

      "Quotes from others represent a mental laziness in themselves" - Dailykos member "Rudgirl"

      by misterblaine on Wed Sep 07, 2005 at 04:36:10 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Heard about the bombing (none / 0)

    of the levee already. By someone talking to Rachel Maddow when she was subbing for Al Franken last week.  

    I'm not at all surprised, btw.  

    Hope is a dream by one who is awake- Aristotle

    by smugbug on Wed Sep 07, 2005 at 04:35:52 PM PST

  •  This is an old intelligence trick called (4.00 / 2)

    Poisoning the well: the intentional promotion of lies to blend with an embarrassing truth to discredit it.

    "Unless we each conform, unless we obey orders, unless we follow our leaders blindly there is no possible way we can remain free" - Frank Burns

    by Central Scrutinizer on Wed Sep 07, 2005 at 04:38:21 PM PST

  •  It's possible (none / 0)

    The most successful conspiracies are the ones that are the hardest to believe.

    This is definitely worthy of attention, but before making conclusions we should get more information (if possible).

  •  So.. wait a minute (4.00 / 3)

    in order to protect the highest part of New Orleans from flooding, they bombed a levee and flooded New Orleans, therefore making the French Quarter closer to floodwater..

    Riiiiiight..

    Anyways, i'm pretty sure that a levee breaking makes a loud sound, sorta like an explosion.

    "Our country right or wrong. When right, to be kept right; when wrong, to be put right" - Carl Schurz

    by RBH on Wed Sep 07, 2005 at 04:40:22 PM PST

    •  Not to mention (4.00 / 3)

      that the French Quarter is above sea level anyway.

      Ablington is a scab at the bending factory. Relentless!

      by ablington on Wed Sep 07, 2005 at 04:54:48 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  The lake was 5 feet above sea level from the storm (none / 0)

        Heard that on WLTV on Monday.
        •  And your point is? (none / 0)

          New Orleans only has a ring of levees and walls around the outside; the notion of a poor neighborhood being sacrificed to protect a richer one is silly because if any break happened anywhere, the whole city would be at risk.  Lower lying areas would be more at risk, while higher lying areas would be at less risk.  The French Quarter and Garden Districts are generally above sea level, from 0 to 4 feet above sea level.  Any flooding in those areas would be minor and would go away quickly as lake pontchartrain returned to normal elevation.

          No on Prop 8::Sometimes I get to hitch a ride on the Democratic Bus--they let me stand on the back bumper.

          by steve04 on Wed Sep 07, 2005 at 05:17:38 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Yes. (none / 1)

        The french quarter and garden district are largely above sea level, so the notion that the poor neighborhoods were sacrificed is spurious.  Please delete this diary.

        This is a conspiracy theory, and it is easily disproved by taking a look at the facts.

        (Go here: http://www.gnocdc.org/ and click "Elevation Map" in the right hand navigation bar to check which parts of the city are above sea level and which are below)

        Contrary to what's been accepted as fact, the 17th street canal isn't lined by levies but by walls that keep back the water; this is because there isn't space for the wide footprint levees take up.  I would imagine that a wall giving way to the enormous water pressure behind it would sound like an explosion.  The explanation given, which sounds perfectly reasonable to me, is that waves from lake pontchartrain overtopped the walls, and slowly erroded the foundations of the walls on the back side.  After enough weakening, the walls would just buckle.

        No on Prop 8::Sometimes I get to hitch a ride on the Democratic Bus--they let me stand on the back bumper.

        by steve04 on Wed Sep 07, 2005 at 05:15:04 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I'm supposed to believe (none / 1)

          that slowly eroded walls that eventually buckle and give way sound like an expolsion? Rushing water sounds like a roar, or a freight train. I can believe that dropping large sandbags sound like a bang before I'd believe that.

          There is a great deal of pain in life and perhaps the only pain that can be avoided is the pain that comes from trying to avoid pain. - R.D. Laing

          by brenda on Wed Sep 07, 2005 at 05:32:43 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Yes. (none / 1)

            OK, you know what rushing water sounds like.

            Do you know what the sound of a sudden release of pressure sounds like?  I.e., a wall buckling?  It's a sudden event, and sudden releases of pressure are by nature explosions, though I wouldn't expect the wall breaking would be particularly loud.

            Lets also remember that you haven't provided any reliable source that says explosions were heard that day.  You're saying there may have been explosions, and therefore they must have been bombs.

            No on Prop 8::Sometimes I get to hitch a ride on the Democratic Bus--they let me stand on the back bumper.

            by steve04 on Wed Sep 07, 2005 at 05:37:45 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I said no such thing (none / 1)

              I said that Applbaum reported to Xeni that people at the Astrodome claimed that levees were bombed. That's it.

              There is a great deal of pain in life and perhaps the only pain that can be avoided is the pain that comes from trying to avoid pain. - R.D. Laing

              by brenda on Wed Sep 07, 2005 at 06:04:34 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  ummm (none / 1)

              "remember that you haven't provided any reliable source that says explosions were heard that day."

              But I have, two sources in fact. Xeni from boingboing and Applebaum.

              There is a great deal of pain in life and perhaps the only pain that can be avoided is the pain that comes from trying to avoid pain. - R.D. Laing

              by brenda on Wed Sep 07, 2005 at 06:11:26 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I'm going to question that (none / 0)

                All that I can see is Xeni reporting what Applebaum said.

                Now, if I said that the Borg was taking over Mississippi, and I told it to a friend, would we really count as two sources, or wouldn't we just have 'one source'

                For such things as rumors, posting the rumor in the title like that (without anything like a question mark) is counterproductive to whatever you're aiming for.

                It's not a confirmed story, and that's the nice way to put it. The harsher way is "It doesn't make any sense at all"

                "Our country right or wrong. When right, to be kept right; when wrong, to be put right" - Carl Schurz

                by RBH on Wed Sep 07, 2005 at 06:21:55 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  actually it is confirmed (none / 1)

                  below.

                  There is a great deal of pain in life and perhaps the only pain that can be avoided is the pain that comes from trying to avoid pain. - R.D. Laing

                  by brenda on Wed Sep 07, 2005 at 06:29:17 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Well, sort of (none / 1)

                    only that the "confirmation" was involving another levee.

                    I hope you can see why I don't believe this. Because it's implausible and there's nothing to back it up.

                    "Our country right or wrong. When right, to be kept right; when wrong, to be put right" - Carl Schurz

                    by RBH on Wed Sep 07, 2005 at 06:33:24 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Still, for all the shit I've taken (none / 1)

                      on this, it turns out that yes, there was a levee breached.

                      It's implausible? Yeah, like FEMA waiting five days while people die on TV. That's just crazy talk.

                      There is a great deal of pain in life and perhaps the only pain that can be avoided is the pain that comes from trying to avoid pain. - R.D. Laing

                      by brenda on Wed Sep 07, 2005 at 06:39:40 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  That wasn't the issue (none / 1)

                        Levees breaching was not the claim, The 17th Street Levee being blown up by the Army Corps of Engineers was the claim. An unsupported claim stated as fact by yourself.

                        "Our country right or wrong. When right, to be kept right; when wrong, to be put right" - Carl Schurz

                        by RBH on Wed Sep 07, 2005 at 06:43:47 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  Please update your diary (none / 0)

                        Traditionally, once corrected information is available, diarists update the title and content of their diaries to reflect the truth.  I think it would be useful to keep your diary, with the accurate information about which levee was actually breached by the army corps under a heading like this:

                        Update by Brenda at xx yy time:
                        ...
                        ...

                        No on Prop 8::Sometimes I get to hitch a ride on the Democratic Bus--they let me stand on the back bumper.

                        by steve04 on Wed Sep 07, 2005 at 06:52:57 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

  •  Don't dismiss this out of hand (none / 0)

    There were contingency plans for blowing the levees.

    Why?

    Simple.  The Mississippi river is higher than the lake.  If the levees on the Mississippi side were to fail, it would make sense to blow the levees on the lake side to let water out.

    But the levees on the Mississippi side didn't fail, so I don't really understand why they would blow the levees on purpose.

  •  others have said the same (none / 0)

    that the army corps bombed the levee to make sure the water flowed to the poor people and not the wealthier area just on the other side. Not confirmed, and it's possible that the bangs people heard were just the levee breaking and not bombs... but we don't know.

    If you look on the satellite pictures, it is very obvious at a glance that the breach side of the 17th st levee is much poorer than the intact side.

  •  BS (none / 0)

    Sounds like they had to destroy New Orleans in order to save it.

    This just isn't true.

    I agree with the guy who mentioned the sounds of a levee breaking - water busting through a levee is likely to make quite a noise, not to mention all of the other debris getting tossed around in that area.  

    Conspiracy theories like this just aren't helpful, because they ignore all the real shit that went down and fucked over the City.  We don't need to make stuff up to call this a travesty.

  •  I smell Rove (4.00 / 2)

    or some other "operative." Until confirmed, do NOT recommend this.

    The last thing we need is a front page, or top recommended conspiracy diary for the world to look at and then ridicule us when it proves false.

    This space available. Bad credit, no credit, no problem! Financing available!

    by Stand Strong on Wed Sep 07, 2005 at 04:48:26 PM PST

  •  Oh Please (none / 0)

    Give me a break.  With so much reality to choose from, why do people insist on posting the ridiculous.  

    Freedom is what you do with what's been done to you. Jean-Paul Sartre

    by Stevo on Wed Sep 07, 2005 at 04:50:09 PM PST

  •  Has everyone forgotten (none / 1)

    the story of how, before the leevy fully burst open, helicopters were being used to drop sandbags on the breach, but the choppers were pulled away for other duties and so the leevy finally failed?

    I would imagine the sound of big sandbags hitting the water from 50-100 ft would make a significant boom.

    •  I think this is an EXCELLENT point. (none / 0)

      What I want to know is...if they knew that the levvies could break ahead of time...why didn't they reinforce the levvies with sandbags ahead of the storm?? If they broke after that...oh well...but perhaps they could have withstood some of the storm if they had been reinforced.

      And I finished this letter with unshakable faith that the dream will be fulfilled for this generation, and preserved and enlarged for generations to come.

      by Elise on Wed Sep 07, 2005 at 05:03:53 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  sand baggers needed sexual harrasment training (none / 1)

        before FEMA could send anybody to help fix the levee, FEMA had to be sure that all of its vollenteers recieved a lecture about sexual harrassment

        seriously, check the memo Brownie sent to Chertoff 5 HOURS AFTER the hurricane made landfall

    •  I watched all the city news conferences (none / 1)

      on WLTV and heard the Army Corp of Engineer rep say  Tuesday evening they couldn't drop sand bags because they had no slings.

      Also Mayor reported they were going to have to open a levy to relieve pressure, water would rise to lake level over the next 10-15 hours.  This was an overnight release so people were flooded while they slept if they didn't have at least a radio to hear the report.

      I'd give links but it seems everything from 8/28 to 9/2 is getting scrubbed.  I did go to WLTV.com and can't find anything, can't find any transcripts.

      •  You'd give links if you weren't trolling (none / 0)

        Give me a break.  Show us some links, please.  Failing that, take the time to read the links others provide to dispute this conspiracy theory.  The whole diary should be deleted.

        I do remember the Mayor saying eventually some levees on the river side of the city could be opened to help drain the city, but as for intentionally openning a levee on the lake side, mother nature had already done that.

        No on Prop 8::Sometimes I get to hitch a ride on the Democratic Bus--they let me stand on the back bumper.

        by steve04 on Wed Sep 07, 2005 at 05:25:03 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I didn't say it was a lake side levee (none / 1)

          I was just trying to point out they announced they were opening levees to releave pressure and everything would rise to lake level apparently from the original break.
          •  OK--sorry (none / 0)

            Suggesting you were trolling was a bit much-sorry.

            I'm just pissed because this whole diary is spurious, and people should not post diaries that are so easily refuted.  If they do, they should delete them when others show them the evidence.

            There was no "sacrifice" of the poor neighborhoods--they just happened to be the lowest neighborhoods there.  Part of the fault of the levee failures lies at the feet of george bush for not funding the army corps of engineers enough to shore up all the levees or fund the study on improving the levees so they could withstand a category 5 storm.

            (To see which parts of the city are lowest or highest, go here: http://www.gnocdc.org/ and click "Elevation Map" in the right hand navigation bar.  You'll see that the French Quarter and traditional tourist areas were never in any real danger of flooding.  1 or 2 feet of water is nothing; 10 feet is entirely different)

            No on Prop 8::Sometimes I get to hitch a ride on the Democratic Bus--they let me stand on the back bumper.

            by steve04 on Wed Sep 07, 2005 at 05:33:03 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  And the storm swell was 20ft (none / 0)

              There is a great deal of pain in life and perhaps the only pain that can be avoided is the pain that comes from trying to avoid pain. - R.D. Laing

              by brenda on Wed Sep 07, 2005 at 05:38:06 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Link? (none / 0)

                I don't think the storm swell was ever 20 feet.  If it was, I especially don't think it was still 20 feet when the water level in New Orleans stabilized somewhere around Wednesday.

                Considering the fact that the French Quarter never really saw bad flooding (remember 20% of the city wasn't ever flooded), I think you just pulled that number out of thin air, or at best tried to apply a fact that was true at one time to another point in time when it was not true.

                Check your facts, please.  If you find that they're wrong, then delete the diary.

                No on Prop 8::Sometimes I get to hitch a ride on the Democratic Bus--they let me stand on the back bumper.

                by steve04 on Wed Sep 07, 2005 at 05:41:04 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  here you go (none / 0)

                  "Baig has estimated the peak storm surge at 27 feet. That was atop the normal 2-foot tide at that time of the morning. The estimate is based on a computer calculation, Baig said, and it could take a month or more to verify the figure."

                  http://www.sanluisobispo.com/mld/sanluisobispo/news/nation/12580121.htm

                  yup, that's 27 feet, but I'm the crazy one who should delete her diary because you don't believe me.

                  Now....do I get an apology? Or do those things only work one way form you?

                  There is a great deal of pain in life and perhaps the only pain that can be avoided is the pain that comes from trying to avoid pain. - R.D. Laing

                  by brenda on Wed Sep 07, 2005 at 05:48:51 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  No appology for you (none / 0)

                    From the article you so kindly provided:

                    "Baig said Katrina's maximum surge evidently hit a five-mile stretch along Bay St. Louis in Mississippi, near the Stennis Space Center, which remains closed, and a Navy oceanographic facility. It probably penetrated five miles inland and lasted about four hours, he said."

                    New Orleans isn't in Mississippi, and it's probably more than five miles inland.  Lastly, to completely disprove your claim that New Orleans suffered from a 20 or 27 foot storm surge (from two of your posts), the levee broke in New Orleans after the storm had passed, not within the four hour window during which that 27 foot storm surge occured.

                    I'm sorry you're unable to read entire articles and instead only skim for numbers that support your conspiracy theory.  Perhaps an appology is in order from you to me for saying "Or do those things only work one way from you," when in fact I'm the one who made the appology up thread.

                    Delete your diary.  Your facts don't apply to New Orleans, or to the time frame during which the levee broke.

                    No on Prop 8::Sometimes I get to hitch a ride on the Democratic Bus--they let me stand on the back bumper.

                    by steve04 on Wed Sep 07, 2005 at 06:29:26 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Still wrong (none / 0)

                      "Katrina's maximum surge" The word to note is 'maximum'. Are you trying to say there was no surge in NOLA?

                      "A 15 to 30 foot (5 to 9 m) storm surge came ashore on virtually the entire coastline from Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama to Florida. The 30 foot (10 m) storm surge recorded at Biloxi, Mississippi is the highest ever observed in America."

                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurricane_Katrina

                      "Katrina's surge could have contributed to mammoth waves. "It deepens the ocean and allows waves to come much farther inland than they did before," Baig said.

                      Baig said waves can reach heights 80 percent of the depth of the ocean. For example, water that is 5 feet deep can support 4-foot waves. That means waves as high as 23 feet could have formed above Katrina's surge. Thus along St. Louis Bay, waves could have crested at more than 50 feet above sea level.

                      The estimates by SLOSH - Sea, Lake and Overland Surges from Hurricanes - typically are within 20 percent of the actual measurements, Baig said. In Katrina's case, the surge range would be 22 to 32 feet. Even if the numbers are in the low range, that would mean waves potentially as high as 40 feet above sea level."

                      http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/nation/12580121.htm

                      There is a great deal of pain in life and perhaps the only pain that can be avoided is the pain that comes from trying to avoid pain. - R.D. Laing

                      by brenda on Wed Sep 07, 2005 at 07:46:54 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  No. I was claiming that the surge was small. (none / 0)

                        According to this, the surge was only 9 feet above sea level in Lake Pontchartrain.  http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nationworld/bal-te.lake07sep07,1,4696975.story?coll=bal-news-nation

                        Combine that with the fact that a storm surge only lasts as long as the wind is blowing especially hard, and it's clear that the surge itself wasn't enough to flood New Orleans.  The Levees do provide protection, and the fact that most of the French Quarter was not flooded, at an elevation of 0-4 feet above sea level, shows that the storm surge wasn't the be all and end all of the devastation.

                        The storm surge may have caused the 17th Ave levee to fail, but it was gone by the time the main flooding started.

                        I asked you to back up your various claims or insinuations of a 20 or 27 foot storm surge, and you didn't find anything relevant to New Orleans.

                        No on Prop 8::Sometimes I get to hitch a ride on the Democratic Bus--they let me stand on the back bumper.

                        by steve04 on Wed Sep 07, 2005 at 09:14:35 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  annnnnndd... still wrong (none / 0)

                          "As the storm surge rolled in from the Gulf of Mexico to swell Lake Pontchartrain, the bay rose to more than nine feet above sea level, overwhelming the levies."

                          It doesn't say how high the surge was, it says how high Lake Pontchartrain rose to. And the quote from the article says: "overwhelming the levies" which flies in the face of: "it's clear that the surge itself wasn't enough to flood New Orleans." Which you admitt here: "The storm surge may have caused the 17th Ave levee to fail."

                          Besides, this is about: "I think you just pulled that number out of thin air"

                          I didn't, I remembered it. Ive provided you with three good links that back me up. All you've done is play games with words.

                          "A 15 to 30 foot (5 to 9 m) storm surge came ashore on virtually the entire coastline from Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama to Florida."

                          This is what you claimed "I don't think the storm swell was ever 20 feet."

                          That claim is false.

                          Nowhere have I claimed that the surge was responsible for the levee break, or even the flooding. What happen was I had the gall to correct you.

                          There is a great deal of pain in life and perhaps the only pain that can be avoided is the pain that comes from trying to avoid pain. - R.D. Laing

                          by brenda on Wed Sep 07, 2005 at 10:59:28 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  We're talking about New Orleans (none / 0)

                            I'm not playing with words.  A 20 foot storm surge in one place at one time is not a 20 foot storm surge at different place at a different time.  If you call that playing with words, then there's no point talking to you.  I'm talking about specific times and specific localities.

                            Lake Pontchartrain is a tidal lake.  It's connected to "lake" Borgne through a little marshland.  If you look at a map of New Orleans, Lake Pontchartrain is the closest thing to a coast that New Orleans has--it isn't on the coast, it's on a "lake" that is barely connected to another "lake" (Borgne), which is clearly a bay attached to the Gulf.

                            If the conversation is about the 17th street levee (your original diary), then we aren't talking about the coast, we're talking about Lake Pontchartrain, which hopefully we can both agree had a 9 foot storm surge, which apparently lasted 4-5 hours.

                            Your links don't address central New Orleans.  I'm not arguing with you that higher storm surges hit surrounding areas directly on the coast, but the part of New Orleans that borders the 17th street canal did not see a 15-30 foot storm surge.  It saw a 9 foot storm surge according to the only article I found that directly addressed Lake Pontchartrain, which if you look at a map of New Orleans is where the storm surge would have hit.

                            In the end, we're both on the same side on the larger issue.  We're both furious with Bush for cutting levee maintenance and improvement budgets, and we're both devastated by the awful loss of life.

                            No on Prop 8::Sometimes I get to hitch a ride on the Democratic Bus--they let me stand on the back bumper.

                            by steve04 on Fri Sep 09, 2005 at 11:38:01 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                            •  Hey Steve (none / 0)

                              yes, we are both on the same side. My opinion is that this has been a tough buy fair debate. I don't believe that I've disrespected you, sure hope not.

                              Here is an update via NPR

                              Morning Edition, September 9, 2005 · Engineers and scientists are getting a better idea of exactly how the New Orleans area flooded. In addition to several breaks in the city's floodwalls, engineers now say the Ninth Ward in the eastern part of the city was hit by a huge wave coming over a levee.

                              No mention about when exactly the wave hit. Can we lay this to rest now and maybe join sides whuppin' some Bushite butt?

                              rewspectfully
                              brenda

                              There is a great deal of pain in life and perhaps the only pain that can be avoided is the pain that comes from trying to avoid pain. - R.D. Laing

                              by brenda on Sat Sep 10, 2005 at 10:18:04 AM PST

                              [ Parent ]

                        •  WWL -TV two LSU professors from (none / 0)

                          the university's hurricane research center on for an hour long interview last midweek. One of them was Ivor Van Heerden a unit director, and the other was a colleague, research associate or postdoc of south asian ethnic background who showed comparisons between their pre-hurricane wind direction/intensity and storm surge prediction models and the actual damage resulting in greater NO and MS from the surges and wind-driven sloshing in Lk Ponchartrain.  

                          They had been right on target even with their model predictions made late 8-27.

                          St Bernard and the areas in Orleans adjacent to lake Borgne (really more of an ocean bay) to the north  across the intra-coastal waterway and east of 9th Ward/ east of I-510 and Michoud Blvd and Willowbrook (there is a big NASA facility near there) were flooded by storm surge coming from east off of Lake Borgne  that was amplified by shape and depth of the bay   so that  overtopped but /largely did not rupture levees protecting the parishes' flanks near lake Borgne side. St Bernards parish AND the far north-east portion of Orleans parish east of the 9th ward  filled up with mostly ocean water from this surge and stayed there after the surge passed because  the protective flood gates and levees ringing the communities were still intact.

                          Did the Army corp or local authorities/residents of far-northeest Orleans  parish  deliberately breach flood walls or levees on the west side of the area to relieve the storm surge water out and into the 9th ward?

                          That is the question that none of the media or public officials seem to want to address directly right now, and some of the diary attackers in this thread seem to be trying to distract attention away from.

                  •  That's the surge that hit Mississippi. (none / 0)

                    Not New Orleans. The giant storm surge was on the east side of Katrina.

                    That's the wall of water that wiped out all those casinos along the Gulf Coast, and blew the first floor right out of two-story buildings leaving the second floor looking weirdly untouched.

                    NOLA's problem came, not from the Gulf, not from the river, but from Lake Pontchartrain. Even there, experts are now saying that the best evidence indicates the lake's surge may not even have overtopped the lakeside levees -- but it weakened them. And a barge may have been thrown against one of the canal walls, knocking the biggest hole.

                    Folly is fractal: the closer you look at it, the more of it there is.

                    by Canadian Reader on Wed Sep 07, 2005 at 06:50:35 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

            •  Apology accepted (none / 0)

              We are on the same side here.  The Mayor and the Army Corp of Engineers wouldn't announce it if it was some vicious plot.

              I do remember worrying about people getting hit with rising water in the dark while they slept when I first heard their plans.  They didn't seem to have a choice in what they were doing and were warning people.

            •  No one has yet refuted the post on BoingBoing.net (none / 0)

              In trying to refute the story people have written that it's unlikely that the levees were bombed. I agree. They'd said that there are no reports from volunteers that rapes, murders, beatings, etc are going on at the astrodome. I'm less likely to agree with that. But until I get other confirmation, I'll have to agree that it isn't actually happening.

              But the actual post on BoingBoing.net was an IM between two reliable sources quoting interviews with people who have been evacuated to the Astrodome. Jacob is there as evidenced by his photos and work on the radio network and PC network. Xeni has a long history of valuable journalism with Wired, MTV, and others.  

              Are you saying that this IM never actually took place? Or are you saying that the interviews never took place? If so, I have to disagree with you until Xeni or Jacob says they were lying, misquoted, or spoofed.

              Again, whether or not the rumors are proven false, the fact that evacuees believe in the rumors is pretty damning. The fact that Americans who had been stormed out of their houses, are near broke, then were abandoned at the Convention Center and Superdome, believe these rumors and feel they're being treated wrongly is the story we should be paying attention to.  

              •  WOW (none / 0)

                "The fact that Americans who had been stormed out of their houses, are near broke, then were abandoned at the Convention Center and Superdome, believe these rumors and feel they're being treated wrongly is the story we should be paying attention to."

                So what you mean is that the story we SHOULD be paying attention to is that people who have suffered are buying into unsubstantiated rumors that are being pandered about by people like yourself?

                I agree.  

                (Cross-posted in my pants)

                by Calishfornia on Wed Sep 07, 2005 at 05:49:44 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  more bad logic (none / 0)

                  The rumor, true or false, is comming from the people at the Astrodome, not the other way around as you imply.

                  There is a great deal of pain in life and perhaps the only pain that can be avoided is the pain that comes from trying to avoid pain. - R.D. Laing

                  by brenda on Wed Sep 07, 2005 at 05:52:53 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  And (none / 0)

                    how do you know that?  Did someone personally tell you?  And per your argument above, why should I believe you?

                    I think the more important question is: who is pushing this unsubstantiated rumor? And for what?  Attention on a blog?

                    (Cross-posted in my pants)

                    by Calishfornia on Wed Sep 07, 2005 at 05:58:31 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Do you not read? (none / 0)

                      There are links, please follow them and read the article. The quotations are from the article. There are even pictures.

                      Next time, please read the article before launching into a rant.

                      There is a great deal of pain in life and perhaps the only pain that can be avoided is the pain that comes from trying to avoid pain. - R.D. Laing

                      by brenda on Wed Sep 07, 2005 at 06:07:39 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  Bingo n/t (none / 0)

                      No on Prop 8::Sometimes I get to hitch a ride on the Democratic Bus--they let me stand on the back bumper.

                      by steve04 on Wed Sep 07, 2005 at 06:40:11 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

              •  My god! (none / 0)

                someone who doesn't attack me with bad reasoning and lies! will wonders never cease?

                There is a great deal of pain in life and perhaps the only pain that can be avoided is the pain that comes from trying to avoid pain. - R.D. Laing

                by brenda on Wed Sep 07, 2005 at 05:51:02 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Ohhhh (none / 0)

                  I see.  Now you're being persecuted.

                  I'm sorry was I oppressing you?

                  (Cross-posted in my pants)

                  by Calishfornia on Wed Sep 07, 2005 at 06:00:28 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Don't worry (none / 0)

                    Brenda didn't actually read the article she provided to back up a number she threw at me.

                    I doubt it if she followed the link I provided to New Orleans' elevation.

                    No storm surge at the time the levies broke + parts of New Orleans above sea level means her whole conspiracy theory that the army corps of engineers bombed the 17th street canal is garbage.

                    Lets all just hope this diary dies a timely death, since it's clear Brenda won't delete it.

                    No on Prop 8::Sometimes I get to hitch a ride on the Democratic Bus--they let me stand on the back bumper.

                    by steve04 on Wed Sep 07, 2005 at 06:33:54 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

            •  How does this reconcile (none / 0)

              With these reports?

              Bush spent more money on ACOE projects in LA then any other state, but much of the money was diverted to non levy use by the legislature.

              Bush spent more on these levies in the last 5 years then Clinton did in 8.

              The section of the levy that was breached was recently upgraded.

              The first two I heard on Tony Snow, so I would need to verify them.

              The 3rd was reported by the ACOE.

              Also the study was funded and set to begin in 2006.  Too little too late.

              The bombing story sounds silly to me, and it makes no logical sense.

              As for the blame, well I WIll reserve some judgement till more facts are confirmed.

              •  I looked around, and (none / 0)

                I found this that answered some of the questions:

                http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/07/AR2005090702462_pf.html

                It suggests to me at least that blame is going to point in many directions where the levies are concerned.

              •  well theres your problem right there (none / 0)

                Tony Snow? On Fox? He is just apeing the latest talking points from Rove. Fox is not a reliable source of information.

                There is a great deal of pain in life and perhaps the only pain that can be avoided is the pain that comes from trying to avoid pain. - R.D. Laing

                by brenda on Fri Sep 09, 2005 at 08:17:35 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  I believe I (none / 0)

                  Already acknolwedged that when i said they need to be verrified.  I personally wanted validation to support any accusations or presentations made here lately.

                  But the link i posted does suport a lot of it, as does factcheck.org.

                  So the question of blame is going to become a fairly large pie, and it will have to be divided according to degree of responsibility.

                  Bush will have his piece, but there is going to be alo to go around if those dividing it do so honestly.

                  •  the section that was (none / 0)

                    upgraded had subsided. Subsidence in NOLA is due to two factors; mud and silt compacting, and the extraction of oil and gas. Together they resulted in the levee upgrade to being two feet lower than they thought it was.

                    That probably wouldn't have helped much against the 20ft wave that hit.

                    As far distributing blame to past administrations, both Dems and Gopers share blame. The Bush administration though, has been especially vicious and have deliberately targeted anyone not groveling at their feet or enthusiastically kissing their ass. Lives are ruined and careers destroyed so they can have their revenge.

                    Critically needed funds were diverted away from the levees for purely political reasons. How can I know tis? Because everything this administration has done has been political.

                    There is a great deal of pain in life and perhaps the only pain that can be avoided is the pain that comes from trying to avoid pain. - R.D. Laing

                    by brenda on Sat Sep 10, 2005 at 10:35:59 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  you are right.... (none / 0)

                      Critically needed funds were diverted away from the levees for purely political reasons.

                      Yes they were, but also by the state.  Thats another reason why I want the State government to pony up to the mic and admit they share the blame.

                      I wont argue that the Administration has been on high defense, as have their defenders and pundits.  I expected nothing less.

                      But on the other hand, from the word go the democrats have been on the hardline attack, including trying to make this a racial issue.  They will hang Bush one way or another, their determination is obvious.

                      The blaming is helping nothing.  Both sides need to grow up, and take responsibility.

      •  I recall something somewhat similar in reference (none / 0)

        about 17th St levee (only) repair on TV last week.

        They said they would need to wait  for the levels on both sides of the 17th St levee (central north Canal St area) breach to equalize before repairs could be attempted.  

        However, iirc, they did not mention any specific active measures they might be undertaking  to "help" the water levels  equalize in the 17th street levee breach outflow area as far as I remember, and they never talked last week on the cable news about any deliberate flooding actions being conducted in the poor Black northeast side 9th Ward areas, that seems to be the subjuct of this controversial diary.

        Speaking of not talking about horrific unconfirmed  reports from the 9th Ward, let me plug this diary: 1200 Drowned at Marion Abramson School, Read Blvd, N.O.? of mine from last night. This needs to be aired by the US media and should be easy to either confirm or rule out. why is it not? Not newsworthy?

  •  Ever heard of... (none / 1)

    ...urban myths?

    This is most certainly one.  Pictures, video, then I'll hang the fuckers myself.  Otherwise this is just silly.

    He who will not reason is a bigot; he who cannot is a fool; and he who dares not is a slave. - William Drummond

    by Zergle on Wed Sep 07, 2005 at 04:50:35 PM PST

  •  I not making it up (none / 1)

    Did you even read the link provided? Xeni talked to  Jacob Appelbaum - here is his blog http://jacob.wordpress.com/

    He is the one who made the statement that the levees were bombed so the notion the he is a part of a disinformation scheme is ridiculous. But he may be picking up a rumor from the folks at the Astrodome that is just....unfounded or based on a real event that was misinterpreted, like the fact the the poor were in a low lying section to begin with. Or it may well be that it was a good idea to bomb the levee there from a civil engineering point of view.

    Never-the-less, that and the repression of rights and squelching the press going on in the Astrodome is very alarming.

    There is a great deal of pain in life and perhaps the only pain that can be avoided is the pain that comes from trying to avoid pain. - R.D. Laing

    by brenda on Wed Sep 07, 2005 at 04:58:24 PM PST

    •  Stop it. (4.00 / 2)

      I've been to the dome and I've seen it with my own eyes. They aren't squelching shit and people are getting along fine.  The situation is awful for everyone, but the police, volunteers and evacuees are getting along extremely well.

      But he may be picking up a rumor from the folks at the Astrodome that is just....unfounded or based on a real event that was misinterpreted

      So why would we even give it the time of day if no more foundation can be given than that?

      He who will not reason is a bigot; he who cannot is a fool; and he who dares not is a slave. - William Drummond

      by Zergle on Wed Sep 07, 2005 at 05:19:11 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  So your saying (none / 1)

        that the entire post by Xeni on boingboing and Applebaums blog are complete lies?

        Why should I believe you?

        There is a great deal of pain in life and perhaps the only pain that can be avoided is the pain that comes from trying to avoid pain. - R.D. Laing

        by brenda on Wed Sep 07, 2005 at 05:24:45 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  because this has been diaried before (none / 0)

          and it's bullshit

          levees failures sound like explosions

          it's just a law of physics

          I live in the midst of a thousand miles of levees, and they fail regularly around here

          every time a levee fails, some witness comes forward and says "It sounded JUST LIKE AN EXPLOSION'

          it happens every time a levee fails

          are you going to tell me that the government has been blowing up levees in my area for years, in case they ever got a chance to destroy New Orleans ???

          what other explanation could there be ???

          •  You don't seem to understand me (none / 0)

            I believe you if you say that when a levee goes it sounds like an expolsion ok?

            That wasn't what I was replying to nor was it what you wrote.

            You said that media weren't being censored at the Astrodome, I asked why I ought to believe you over boingboing and Applebaum, then you reply: "it's bullshit levees failures sound like explosions"

            Do you notice the disconnect there?

            There is a great deal of pain in life and perhaps the only pain that can be avoided is the pain that comes from trying to avoid pain. - R.D. Laing

            by brenda on Wed Sep 07, 2005 at 05:42:42 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  yeah, I notice a disconect (none / 0)

              I've witnessed levee breeches, and you want to know why you should trust me over two hacks who have probably never seen a levee close up

              I'm sitting 100 feet from a levee right now, but you insist that boingboing and Applebaum are credible sourses

              if these two hacks are telling you this story, without mentioning that ALL LEVEE BREECHES sound like explosions, then you're being fed bullshit

              and worse yet, you're serving it around to everyone

              this was debunked three days back, so who you gonna believe ???

              •  and confirmed below (none / 1)

                Levees were breached just not the ones initially reported by Applebaum. Maybe it was done for racist motives or maybe not. But it seems pretty clear now that it did, in fact, happen. In spite of being "disproved" three days ago.

                There is a great deal of pain in life and perhaps the only pain that can be avoided is the pain that comes from trying to avoid pain. - R.D. Laing

                by brenda on Wed Sep 07, 2005 at 06:17:54 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Stop it. You're totally confused. (none / 0)

                  The Army Corps of Engineers have been talking about blowing holes in one ring of levees -- not New Orleans, but St. Bernard Parish, which if you look at a map is an entirely separate "bowl". They've been talking about it (don't know if they've done it yet) because the water in St. Bernard was higher than the surrounding water level. There's already the one breech that is draining the area, but they want more holes so the water can drain out faster.

                  Since the area is mostly below sea level, that won't get rid of all the water, but they figure it's faster to let the excess pour out as much as it can, before sealing the breeches and pumping out the rest.

                  All this is very practical, and aimed at getting the whole area dry as soon as possible. But rumor seems to have caught little fragments of the truth and blown it up into this huge urban legend that you have apparently fallen for.

                  Folly is fractal: the closer you look at it, the more of it there is.

                  by Canadian Reader on Wed Sep 07, 2005 at 07:23:58 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  got a link to the talk you heard (none / 0)

                     about St Bernard Parish, and whether they did it or not? And the planned breach location and outflow areas?
                    •  I read it on NOLA.com (none / 1)

                      the web site of the Times-Picayune. I don't have time now to go hunt up the reference. Anyway, it was several days ago. In the story I read, it was all future-tense plans, and I don't remember if they specified exact locations. No idea whether they've actually done it yet.

                      I suppose enough time might have passed while they struggled to close the 17th street breech, that they could have found they didn't need to, because the water had already drained as much as it was going to through the existing breech...? Or maybe not. St. Bernard was under a LOT of water.

                      Folly is fractal: the closer you look at it, the more of it there is.

                      by Canadian Reader on Thu Sep 08, 2005 at 12:52:07 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                  •  Sure it's pratical (none / 0)

                    now...but I'm not talking about now. The evacuees in the Astrodome don't know what's happening in New Orleans now. What they are referring to is when the levees collapsed early in the morning on Aug 30th.

                    There is a great deal of pain in life and perhaps the only pain that can be avoided is the pain that comes from trying to avoid pain. - R.D. Laing

                    by brenda on Wed Sep 07, 2005 at 08:01:27 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Yeah, yeah. Rumors (none / 0)

                      can get things very mixed up, especially when you have a lot of tired, stressed, anxious people packed together without much access to real information.

                      A short reference to this future plan half-overheard on someone else's pocket radio, combined with some people having heard the loud sound that levees do make when they burst... those could easily have been the sources of the rumor you're talking about.

                      Folly is fractal: the closer you look at it, the more of it there is.

                      by Canadian Reader on Thu Sep 08, 2005 at 01:01:21 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  not true (none / 0)

                        "half overheard"?

                        No, you are mischaracterizing it. The converstation was between Xenia and Appelbaum and both have posted transcripts. They are in agreement.

                        The 'rumor' turns out to be mostly correct. Levees were dynamited though not the 17th street one.

                        To sum up - levees were dynamited, for whatever reason, the poor and minorities of NOLA did suffer disproportionately, whether that was deliberate or not is unknown. The evacuees believe it was deliberate. Rapes, murders and beatings have taken place at the Astrodome.

                        Was the collapse of the 17th street levee responsible for the specific rumor reported on boingboing and Appelbaum's blog? We don't know and probably never will.

                        There is a great deal of pain in life and perhaps the only pain that can be avoided is the pain that comes from trying to avoid pain. - R.D. Laing

                        by brenda on Thu Sep 08, 2005 at 08:39:22 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Final response in a dead thread: (none / 0)

                          levees were dynamited, for whatever reason

                          - to lower the water level.

                          the poor and minorities of NOLA did suffer disproportionately

                          - uncontested, but also unconnected to previous. There were more poor neighborhoods on low ground.

                          whether that was deliberate or not is unknown.

                          - topography determined who suffered. If you look at the NYT income level map of the city, there's an upper middle class neighborhood right in the lowest part of St. Bernard Parish, and it got flooded very deeply. So did Metairie, where all the rich executives live. Conversely, the income level in the part of the French Quarter that didn't get flooded at all, is quite low. Not "desperately poor" low, but "barely making it day to day" low.

                          The evacuees believe it was deliberate.

                          - such a belief is understandable under the circumstances, but wrong.

                          Rapes, murders and beatings have taken place at the Astrodome.

                          The Astrodome? In Texas? After they were rescued? Disputable. It may be a fabricated media slur against the evacuees. Even if true, it has nothing to do with the subject of this diary; I don't know why you would bring it up here.

                          Folly is fractal: the closer you look at it, the more of it there is.

                          by Canadian Reader on Thu Sep 08, 2005 at 09:21:18 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

        •  And (none / 0)

          conversely, why should you believe the others?

          Maybe because what they are saying fits into your own preconceived notions?  Nahhhhh....

          (Cross-posted in my pants)

          by Calishfornia on Wed Sep 07, 2005 at 05:35:30 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  Total crap! (none / 0)

    And if they did blow it, I guarantee there was a good reason for it. Not just to "fuck over the poor blacks and help out the rich whites". Remember, the Army Corps of Engineers' were the ones that for the past decade, or longer, have been saying that the levees were inadequit for hurricanes of this magnitude; if anyone knows what they're doing, it's them.

    Take five, smoke em' if ya got em'!!!

    by GARDOGG21 on Wed Sep 07, 2005 at 04:59:22 PM PST

  •  What's interesting is this (none / 0)

    What's interesting about these rumors is that the evacuees believe the levees were bombed. I think it's unlikely, but these people are so far down (near broke, homeless, bruised and battered from a storm, then abandoned at the convention center and superdome) that they're willing to believe the government would drown them and their houses to save the tourist and business areas. And who could blame them... they were left to fend for themselves, witnessed beatings, deaths, rapes, and murders, all while the Government held back aid and help.

    You'd probably think someone was out to get you too.

    •  Yes, you would (none / 0)

      And being poor myself it is no streatch of the imagination at all to think the government would do this. It's pretty much on par with the criminal negligence and propaganda that has been going on all through this crisis.

      How is bombing a levee any worse than denying the Red Cross entry? Turning back truck loads of water? Setting up check points that allow no one in and no one out? Cutting communication lines? Turning away shipments of fuel? Refusing media access, except for a select few, to the Astrodome? Jamming communications? Watching 50,00 people die and complaining no one filled out the proper paperwork?

      There is a great deal of pain in life and perhaps the only pain that can be avoided is the pain that comes from trying to avoid pain. - R.D. Laing

      by brenda on Wed Sep 07, 2005 at 05:13:19 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  I really dislike... (4.00 / 3)

    ...a title that states something as fact, followed by a diary that acknowledges the whole thing is made up of very lightly, second- or third-hand sourced, claims.

    This particular diary would be made slightly more defensible by changing the title to "Was the 17th St. Levee bombed by the Army Corps of Engineers?"

  •  Blame gravity, not the corps of engineers (none / 0)

    Call me a skeptic on this one. The areas of New Orleans not underwater are that way because they are above sea level, not because they are wealthier (the two may be connected, but that's besides the point). The national weather service and other groups did a tremendous job with their flooding models, but they perhaps didn't stress enough that the flooding predictions seem to essentially assume a given volume of water in the city, and distribute it where it will go, which is to the lowest-lying areas.

    I suppose you could try to arguing that breaking one canal wall would ease some of the pressure on the other levees, but I REALLY doubt that the city flooding took enough water out of that lake to make a significant difference. A better founded argument might be that the earthen levees ALL held, while several canal walls breached, indicating that the canals were weak spots, and more likely to run through places other than the wealthier neighborhoods (this is all speculation).

    If you really have doubts as to the flooding patterns, check out the computer models done by LSU and others, and I believe most of them show the French quarter, which sits on some of the highest ground in the city, to be the most likely to stay dry.

    •  NO, you couldn't argue that (none / 0)

      nice try, but this is DEAD WRONG

      I suppose you could try to arguing that breaking one canal wall would ease some of the pressure on the other levees

      purposely breaking a levee is most likely to cause several subsequent failures, Relieving pressure on another levee is likely to cause the other levee to fail too

      sending a new surge of water onto the dry back side of a levee is a reciepe for disaster

      trying to predict the chain of events after a levee is broken would mostly go bad, and blowing a levee on purpose would be kinda hard to conceal

  •  The Story's obviously BS (none / 0)

    The ACOE choppers wouldn't have the capability to "bomb" anything. If they wanted to destroy them for some reason, explosive charges would've been placed at the base, not dropped from a helicopter (?!?) No chopper in US service has the technical ability to "bomb" anything - they're all guided missile equipped. Ridiculous.

    When you have to shoot, SHOOT! Don't talk.

    by sean oliver on Wed Sep 07, 2005 at 05:08:37 PM PST

    •  Where did it say (none / 0)

      they were dropped from a helicopter? Nowhere in the story is there any mention of a bomb being dropped from anything.

      There is a great deal of pain in life and perhaps the only pain that can be avoided is the pain that comes from trying to avoid pain. - R.D. Laing

      by brenda on Wed Sep 07, 2005 at 05:18:27 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  C'mon (none / 0)

    Whether this particular item is true or not, we all know what these people are capable of. This should be either proven or disproved before we go crazier. But, if survivors are making the statement it should not be totally discounted until we know the truth (if we ever do).

    Progressively annoyed for too many years.

    by BrenP on Wed Sep 07, 2005 at 05:13:39 PM PST

  •  one problem (none / 0)

    The 17th street levee didn't flood the 9th ward. The 9th ward was flooded by the breach in the industrial canal. The 17th street canal flooded the lakefront (a rich white neighborhood) as well as mid-city (my neighborhood, which is a mix of rich and white.)

    So this idea makes no sense.

    I know people are saying the poor neighborhoods were deliberately destroyed and while I don't believe that's true, I do think there are people who will try to make sure that the black people don't return. That's the big issue facing New Orleans

  •  Reality is horrible enough... (none / 0)

    ...without gussying it up with "X-Files" stories like these. This does our side no credit and gives aid and comfort to those who want to cover up their messes. They can point to liberal blogs and say "See, these guys are nuts! They'll believe anything."

    Let's just hammer away with the unvarnished truth, it's damning enough.

    Arnold and Dubya star in "Twins II"
    http://msgeek703.googlepages.com/thearnoldanddubyashow
    Remember Katrina: throw the bastards out!

    by MamasGun on Wed Sep 07, 2005 at 05:47:35 PM PST

  •  Section of another canal was deliberately blown (none / 0)

    not 17th Street. I think it was part of Industrial canal that was deliberately breached late Tuesday ( 17th Street Canal breach got bad late Monday night early Tuesday morning.  I made a relevant comment regarding the deliberate flooding of the 9th Ward in another diary here.
    •  That clears up a lot (none / 1)

      Thank you.

      So...The people at the Astrodome were right to believe that levees were blown up, just had the wrong one. Yes, levees do sound like an explision when they give way, even more so when dynamite is in the mix. No, I am not part of a disinformation campaign nor am I a conspiracy theorist and this diary should not be deleted.

      There is a great deal of pain in life and perhaps the only pain that can be avoided is the pain that comes from trying to avoid pain. - R.D. Laing

      by brenda on Wed Sep 07, 2005 at 06:02:02 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  re:rumors (none / 1)

    I posted on the other thread, my cousin is in charge of water distribution and several drivers from my work have volunteered to work there.   On top of that the local NBC affiliate has posted on their website, www.click2houston.com, about those rumors.  

    There were no rapes, no murders, one assault is being investigated.  There are people trying to paint the evacuees as animals and starting bs rumors and those who are buying into the bs need to stop it you are only helping them.  There is no increase in crime in Houston and in that area of town, everyone wants to blame every store robbery and every picked pocket on people from NO.

    az

    •  Why would the evacuees (none / 0)

      start rumors about the evacuees?

      Nowhere have I mentioned anything about an increase in crime or robbery in Houston. I'm talking about inside the Astrodome hun, not out.

      There is a great deal of pain in life and perhaps the only pain that can be avoided is the pain that comes from trying to avoid pain. - R.D. Laing

      by brenda on Wed Sep 07, 2005 at 07:55:32 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Yeah.... (none / 0)

    I'm real sure an IM chat with some guy is a "credible source."  
    •  Not "some guy" (none / 0)

      He's a real person with a name. Go to his blog and ask him if you don't believe him.

      There is a great deal of pain in life and perhaps the only pain that can be avoided is the pain that comes from trying to avoid pain. - R.D. Laing

      by brenda on Wed Sep 07, 2005 at 07:56:45 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I don't have to (none / 0)

        ask him, I already know it's BS.  You can ask me if the sky is green, and I can say yeah it is.  Does that make it so?
        •  Not what I saud (none / 0)

          If I say "So and so just told me the sky is green, she saw it." And you say "No it's not, that's BS and I don't have to even look, everyone knows the sky isn't green." Who's right?

          The person who saw it. Around here, skys can turn green, right before a tornado. Deference should go to those who witness an event, not to those who sat around and "proved" it couldn't be so.

          There is a great deal of pain in life and perhaps the only pain that can be avoided is the pain that comes from trying to avoid pain. - R.D. Laing

          by brenda on Wed Sep 07, 2005 at 08:29:03 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  The wealthy neighborhoods (none / 0)

    Are the wealthy neighborhoods wealthy because they are on higher ground?

    I imagine that living in a place like New Orleans places a premium on elevated land.

    Yes, other factors play a role in designating the value of property, but elevation in a flood plane is quite valuable in most of the world.

    •  Not in my opinion (none / 0)

      I lived there 25 years.

      The wealthy areas are on higher ground because that's where the city was originally built.  Unlike many cities, in New Orleans "older" is more desirable, and thus wealthier.

      But I wouldn't draw general conclusions from that.  There are many poor areas on high ground, and many wealthy areas on low ground--uppper-middle class Lakeview (where the 17th St. Canal broke) being one example.

  •  brenda, one thing is clear ... (none / 0)

    ... you're not a very smart person at all.

    I don't mean that as an insult, I'm just trying to be very honest.

    If I brought a structural engineer here to see if what you say makes sense, and he says no, you would still go on and on and on about how the people who posted these rumors are "reliable".

    The story is just "stupid", it's baseless speculation by non experts, and none of them are eye witnesses to anything. Your propensity to believe anything somebody posts on the internet, is really scary, one wonders if the people that fall for the Nigeriam scam fit your same mentality and profile.

    Please, please, stop making a fool of yourself.

    •  Not sure about Brenda, but your comments (none / 0)

      most certainly have a problem:

      Making nasty personal attacks and throwing up a lot of vapid unsuppported  assertions by unnamed alleged structural engineer  friends?

      Maybe there really is something to Brenda's diary, to bring all the rapid response smear-meisters out of the woodwork to try to discredit it.  

  •  Not complete rubbish, but close (none / 0)

    This story is a great example of nonsense based on truth.

    All the floodwalls that breached were on waterways that fed into the lakeside of New Orleans. Anyone who knows New Orleans knows that the French Quarter, Garden District and Uptown are along the Mississippi River, on high ground on the opposite side of town from Lake Ponchartrain.

    These areas are higher than the level of Lake Ponchartrain. They are lower, however, than the Mississippi. The flood danger to these wealthy areas of town is from a breach of the Mississippi River levees, which would send walls of water through these areas, down into the "bowl" of Gentilly/West End/Ninth Ward, exactly as it is doing now, whence it would also collect in the Lower Ninth Ward and St. Bernard Parish, exactly as it is doing now. Flood waters will always end up in this bowl eventually, because it is the lowest ground in town. The only way the French Quarter could be affected by such water is if it washed through or over the Mississippi levees.

    So - there is no significant flood danger to the French Quarter, Garden District or Uptown from lakeside flooding. Therefore you cannot "save" these areas by intentionally causing lakeside flooding.

    It should also be noted that the West End Marina area, which is where the 17th Street Canal breach took place, is among the richest areas of the city.

    Also, this story fails to "hold water" whether it refers to the 17th Street Canal, the London Avenue Canal or the Industrial Canal. The London Canal, like the 17th Street/Metarie Canal, opens to the lakeside only. The Industrial Canal connects the Ponchartrain to the Mississippi, but it meets the Mississippi more than a mile downriver of the French Quarter. While intentionally breaching the Industrial Canal would unquestionably flood the Lower Ninth Ward and St. Bernard Parish, it would not "save" the French Quarter because the French Quarter was in no danger from that point to start with.

    Finally, here is where I think this story comes from: on at least one occasion in the past, the State of Louisiana has saved New Orleans from river flooding by intentionally busting levees upriver of New Orleans. This inundated rural Louisiana and ensured that when the river reached New Orleans, it was not high enough to top the levees. This decision was very controversial and, as you can expect, led to a lot of bad feeling between city and country, rich and poor. It is still fairly fresh in many memories and most native Louisianians know about it. My guess is that this absurd claim -and I think I have shown that it is patently, completely absurd- is a bastardization of past history, conjured by distraught grasping for answers. I could go into how I think some of the anger over the response to this disaster is an attempt to deny man's helplessness before nature by ascribing blame to other humans, but that is for another post.

    •  You sound like you have detailed knowledge (none / 0)

      1. Can you show with Google Map where the breach in London Av Canal is located, day and time it broke, and into which neighborhood the water from this rupture flooded?

      2. Precise location, date and time  of the Industrial canal levee rupture

      3. Timeline for the break in the 17 th street canal levee?  The massive rupture was first reported on cable TV around 2:30 am EDT Tuesday, by call-in from a Tulane medical center medical administrator /hospital services chief.  She said the hospital  had been on dry land and accessible to ambulances Monday pm after the Katrina had passed, but water starting coming up later  at rate of  1 ft/hr, and was at that moment (~2 am EDT) close to the 2nd floor level (12 ft up) where the diesel powered generators were located. So when did the 17th canal break start??

      4. Was not St Bernard parish flooded by the storm surge coming in from the east as Katrina passed (8/29 Monday morning), which overtopped coastalmarsh side levees without breaking them, but St bernard was not flooded because a canal or waterway ( levee rupture?    
      •  Attempt at answers (none / 1)

        I don't have any detailed knowledge that cannot be acquired by anyone else with a knowledge of New Orleans and a good AM radio.

        1. I don't know how to post maps or link text. Here is URL for google map of New Orleans.

        http://maps.google.com/maps?oi=map&q=New+Orleans,+LA

        London Ave. Canal is on the lakeside (north) just to the west of the University of New Orleans. It runs due south along the east end of City Park. That would be the Gentilly neighbourhood, I think. Last heard, the CW was that this break occurred Tuesday morning, but that may just be when it was discovered.

        1. Again I don't know exact day and time of ruptures on the Industrial Canal, but current CW is that they occurred Monday before noon, a result of the storm surge that topped the floodwalls and eventually undermined them in a couple of spots. If you go to that google map, you will see that east of easternmost I-10/I-610 split there is a sort of "fork" in the canal, where three canals meet. Zoom in on that and move slowly SSW, when you get south of Claiborne but north of St. Claude - there was one breach in that narrow stretch of canal. There were others elsewhere. Not sure of exact locations but almost certainly they were near the intersection with the lake; that's where the surge would be highest so that's where you'd get water topping the floodwalls.

        2. The 17th Street canal - if you go to the google map to the westernmost I-10/I-610 split and zero in a little, the 17th Street canal is just west of that, running a little SW of due South. If you follow that north almost all the way to the lake, you see a bridge at Hammond Highway - that, on the Orleans Parish side is where the breach was. I know there was water rising Monday night, but if the report is coming from Tulane Hospital it doesn't really tell you what breaches had happened where, though there almost certainly would have to have been more than one at that time. So, a storm surge from the lake probably topped floodwalls in 17th Street and London Ave. canals, causing flooding on both sides of the wall which softened the dirt and eventually brought a section of floodwall crashing in on itself. The Industrial Canal got the same surge, but because the IC is larger and wider most the surgewater had more room to spread and still stay within the canal system. Probably you had some topping , until it hit the narrows at St. Claude and went over the walls again, on both sides. Same phenomenon with these, I guess: thin floodwall surrounded by water softens and falls in on itself. I have heard precious little about what caused the IC breaks; focus seems to be on 17th Street and London Avenue.

        3. Definitely was major flooding from surgewater from Lake Borgne as the top end of Katrina moved toward Mississippi. Monday night WWL radio was But the worst part of the storm, around the eye, probably only caught the end of St. Bernard. So there was flooding but nothing like there was in Plaquemines Parish to the southeast, which got hit squarely. The flood water in St. Bernard should have receded as the lakes receded, but for the most part that didn't happen. A goodly portion of the water still in St. Bernard after the lakes receded came from the river and the lake via the break in the Industrial canal on the St. Bernard side.

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