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They are vehemently against abortion, they resist progressive woman's rights. They view homosexuality as a crime against nature and God, some advocate the death penalty as an option for it. Separation of Church and State is despised by these folks; they insist the nation is founded on the principles of their religion, and they work hard to bring that de facto theocracy about. They deplore strong language, gay characters, and sexual content on TV and in the media. And they ignore the Geneva Convention when it suits their ideological purposes, including provisions against torture or due process. They're anti-stem cell research, pro-creationism, and generally distrustful of science. These folks are easily whipped into a state of frenzy with ideological manipulation to the point where they will commit violence, or at least tacitly endorse that violence is acceptable, if it advances their Divine agenda. They then take great pains to justify that violence, including unprovoked attack of civilian areas, under certain conditions, with convoluted theological gymnastics. They are almost to the man pro-death penalty ... Am I railing against the religious right again?

Could be, but my target here is actually Al Qaeda and related fundamentalist Wahhabism; the source of terrorism, the scourge of our planet, the Axis of Evil.

Strangely, when I visited a blog frequented by GOP apologists this evening, all merrily playing the "Democrats are like bin Laden" sweepstakes, they were shocked, shocked I tell you, when the tables were so easily turned on them. They were outraged :::Gasp:: can you imagine? They were almost speechless when I pointed out the eerie parallels between Osama bin Laden and fundamentalist Islam, and the stated social policy goals of the extremist religious right currently running the so called Republican Party. Nope, they didn't like it one bit.

When the neocons say that Liberals or moderate Republicans are against America and for the terrorists, they could not have it more backwards. The extreme religious rightwing of the GOP is the closest thing to Islamo-fascism we have in our country, and no one is worried that Al Qaeda will be storming ashore on our beaches en masse, invasion style, anytime soon.

I was once a pretty staunch Republican, although I was always a moderate. But I've always thought the system works best when you have at least two parties to keep check on one another. I never wanted one party to extinguish the other from existence, and I'd like to see three or four robust parties. I was also constantly amazed at the shit the democratic campaign and image gurus allowed their extremist GOP counterparts to get away with. It never made a lick of sense to me that they wouldn't address it head on and/or use the same advertising tactics.

Currently I'm now registered as an Independent, and lately I vote democratic on every single issue. I'm under no illusions that Democrats would never try to feather their own nest if they happened to control all three branches of power and could thus rig the game. But the threat is not coming from the democrats, it's coming from the GOP, infested with the radical religious right, who hope to bring freedom and democracy as we know it and enjoy it, to an end.

What makes Democracy work half-ass, most of the time, is that politicians can't get away with too much naughtiness, especially if it hurts the interests of the rank and file voter. Or they'll get voted out of office by a hungry competitor who will expose them to voters who are fed-up.

What the Neocons have done is brilliant in its sick, slimey way. They've managed to convince a large segment of Christians in the US that cutting benefits and protection for the working class and poor, extending benefits to the wealthy at their expense, engaging in warfare based on lies and deception, and torture, are more central values to Christianity than mercy, civil rights, help for the poor and sick, and the shunning of wealth and power. It's a stunning achievement considering how backasswards that is to the Gospels and the entire New Testament.

And whenever the wheels look they might fall off on a specific bit of deception, and their own rank and file will notice the emperor has no clothes, the Neocons engage in calling their opposition, whomever they may be, unpatriotic, fags and lesbos, cowards, and terrorist sympathizers. The Big Smear. It doesn't matter who or what gets in their way, they'll do it to anyone, for the most trivial of reasons. George Washington could rise from the grave with Thomas Jefferson at his side, and if they disagreed with the agenda du jour of the WH or Tom DeLay, they'd be painted as cowards and traitors. The Neocons smeared John McCain, Max Cleland, John Kerry, and now John Murtha, and by proxy, the greatest generation. The religious right dutifully swallowed it all and spread it like a virus.

Enough of that crap.

If the WH and Culture of Corruption is going to fight back with ridiculous claims that anyone who points to the impressive list of failure racked up by George Bush and associated incompetent goons is an Al Qaeda mole, then they've opened a door to the shit house. And I strongly urge the democratic advisors to place a fan at that entrance to let that foul stink circulate for as long as the Rovians are dumb enough to let them.

Be crystal clear with expensive, repeating, ads about which party acts and thinks most like the terrorists who attacked us on 9-11, and which does not. I said last night that newscasters shouldn't be compared to bin Laden. But that doesn't apply to party ideologies, and we didn't start this bullshit.

They did.

So, if the shoe fits ... It's the Neocon, fundie dominated, GOP that is the closest thing to fanatical Wahhabism in our nation today and there's no major political faction anywhere near giving them a run for the money.

Originally posted to Daily Kos on Sat Jan 21, 2006 at 07:46 PM PST.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Fundies of all stripes (4.00)
    are the enemy of the moderate, and the tolerant, and the intellectually open-minded.

    Welcome back to the land of the reality-based.

    •  The Devil hates (none)
      competition...

      If a thousand men were not to pay their tax bills this year, that would not be a violent and bloody measure, as it would be to pay them, and enable the State...

      by HenryDavid on Sat Jan 21, 2006 at 07:51:04 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Out the CIA (4.00)
        http://msnbc.com/...

        NEW YORK, Aug. 24, 1998 --  At the CIA, it happens often enough to have a code name: Blowback. Simply defined, this is the term that describes an agent, an operative or an operation that has turned on its creators. Osama bin Laden, our new public enemy Number 1, is the personification of blowback. And the fact that he is viewed as a hero by millions in the Islamic world proves again the old adage: Reap what you sow.

        ...

         Yet the CIA, concerned about the factionalism of Afghanistan made famous by Rudyard Kipling, found that Arab zealots who flocked to aid the Afghans were easier to "read" than the rivalry-ridden natives. While the Arab volunteers might well prove troublesome later, the agency reasoned, they at least were one-dimensionally anti-Soviet for now. So bin Laden, along with a small group of Islamic militants from Egypt, Pakistan, Lebanon, Syria and Palestinian refugee camps all over the Middle East, became the "reliable" partners of the CIA in its war against Moscow.

        ...

        love life, ride bikes

        by common terry on Sat Jan 21, 2006 at 09:53:55 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I just got an idea: (4.00)
          Whenever wingnuts thumps themselves on the chest declaring their godfather Reagan did the Soviets in, why don't we add that he had 'good' help - he couldn't have done it without 'al-Qaeda'.

          Restore Democracy! Denounce the GOP (George Orwell's Party)!

          by high5 on Sun Jan 22, 2006 at 02:09:44 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Because It's Wrong (none)
            The CIA worked with the mujahadeen, who later formed into the Northern Alliance, who the CIA and Special Forces worked with to overthrow al Qaeda and their Taliban sponsors.  The al Qaeda fighters in Afghanistan were almost exclusively foreign fighters - even the Afghans referred to them as such.

            People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf - George Orwell

            •  The gang that fought against the Sooviets (none)
              a lot of them were foreign fighters and Osama was one of them. It was only when blowback from this group was starting to occur against the US that the US started calling this group 'al-Qaeda'. Don't try to bullshit me.

              Restore Democracy! Denounce the GOP (George Orwell's Party)!

              by high5 on Sun Jan 22, 2006 at 12:44:04 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Not Trying To BS (none)
                The majority of the mujahadeen were Afghan.  Some foreign fighters, like OBL, went to fight the Soviets, just like some Muslims went to Bosnia and Chechnya.

                The US did not start calling the group "al Qaeda", or "The Base"; they chose the name.  You can read FAS's write-up here linked text

                And thanks for keeping an open mind.

                Hatred blinds

                •  On Al Qaeda (none)
                  "
                  Established by Usama Bin Ladin in the late 1980s to bring together Arabs who fought in Afghanistan against the Soviet Union. Helped finance, recruit, transport, and train Sunni Islamic extremists for the Afghan resistance.
                  "

                  George W. Bush's told the nation last spring, "The evil one is among us."

                  Does he know who it is? Usama doesnt seem powerful enough.

                  love life, ride bikes

                  by common terry on Mon Jan 23, 2006 at 01:38:08 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

    •  Heh..I KNEW there was a reason I gravitated to you (none)
      or at least your diaries.  I am also a scientist-by-training although not really by profession.  The worldview is difficult to escape...

      Welcome back to the reality based universe indeed!

      I am another life-long Republican now turned Democrat - at least that's the ticket that has the right take on all the issues I care about.  I've always been an "independent" in any meaningful sense: I think for myself.

      And, yes, the GOP is turning into a parody of itself...as an above reply noted: their whole machine is built around being a opposition team - not a governing machine.  So, they have honed the opposition offensive attack system (guerilla warfare) to a fine art, with no real thought beyond those talking points.  As with Iraq, once they're in power, they have no idea what to do...least of all how to cope with the sniping.  

      A strong conservative (she believes herself to be anyway) close to my heart was recently finally acquiesing to my attacks on Bush and admitting: everyone hates him now, and still the Dems don't stand for anything.  I tried to explain that by 'standing for something' they would simply give the R's a target to go on the offensive against - and provide a distraction from the absolute mess they've made of governing.

      Keep feeding them rope...make sure they really hang themselves good.

      Cheers!  Happy Schadenfreud!

      •  the opposition that (none)
                     isn't. So by looking weak and cowardly the 'Crats have a 'stratagy'!

        Let's call it the 'roll over, get them to piss on you'-offense. Or as they say in boxing - lead with your chin.

        •  Boy, you are itchin' for a fight! (none)
          Listen, I think we ought to be an opposition party in the same mold - and you've got your analogies exactly backwards.

          We do not let the GOP piss all over us, or "lead with our chin" - in fact, that's exactly my point - don't put something out there for them to swing at!

          The GOP is the party in charge - they have no choice but to put a plan out there.  We put a "serious" "governing" plan out there and they can take pot-shots at it all day - the story becomes how bad "liberal ideas" are, instead of just how crappy and empty GOP rhetoric is as real governing policy.

          Intead - we do exactly as DarkSyde suggests in this diary: take a note from the GOP's opposition plays and start tagging them left right and center with the easy jabs.  When Pat Robertson & the tele-taliban-gelist crowd says dumb stuff, mock them - make the rest of the GOP feel the pain of being tarred and feathered - guilty by association - just as the GOP has done to every single liberal/progressive politician for 30 years now.

          We are the opposition - we don't have to put serious governing solutions out there for them to shoot at.  Cut it with the "we're not going to lower ourselves to their level" nonsense - this is for keeps - play for real & to win.

  •  The Analogy Is Overblown (4.00)
    Unlike in Saudi Arabia, conservative soccer moms in the U.S. are allowed to drive.  In fact, they're encouraged to drive large, gas guzzling vehicles...so we use lots of oil, which sends our money to Saudi Arabia, which helps prop up the Saudi regime.

    Wait, uh, maybe there's some consistencies here...

    The revolution will not be televised, but we'll analyze it to death at The Next Hurrah.

    by Dana Houle on Sat Jan 21, 2006 at 07:48:51 PM PST

    •  I'll (4.00)
      tell ya what's interesting DH, these guys are OK on the offensive, but on the defensive, they just come apart at the seams. They're not used to it man, they've grown soft and lazy.

      And man, are they clueless, without the guys on the aforementioned blog to use as Guinea Pigs, not to mention the link to a Kerry diary to use as a beacon, I never would have known just how easy it was to turn the tables on them over this particular issue. They bought my whole country dumb act, hook, line, and sinker.

      Read UTI, your free thought forum

      by DarkSyde on Sat Jan 21, 2006 at 09:33:11 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  An amazing quote from the year 1851 (none)
         
        "And now, after making due allowances for evils that are natural and can not be avoided - and so few are they that I challenge the whole host of Western metaphysicians to call them evils or trace them directly to an independent cause - I will point out the greatest, the chief cause of nearly two thirds of the evils that pursue humanity ever since that cause became a power. It is religion under whatever form and in whatever nation. It is the sacredotal caste, the priesthood and the churches. It is in those illusions that man looks upon as sacred, that he has to search out the source of that multitude of evils which is the great curse of humanity and that almost overwhelms mankind. Ignorance created Gods and cunning took advantage of opportunity. Look at India and look at Christendom and Islam, at Judaism and Fetichism. It is priestly imposture that rendered these Gods so terrible to man; it is religion that makes him the selfish bigot, the fanatic that hates all mankind out of his own sect without rendering him any better or more moral for it. It is belief in God and Gods that makes two-thirds of humanity the slaves of a handful of those who deceive them under the false pretense of saving them. Is not man ever ready to commit any kind of evil if told that his God or gods demand the crime; voluntary victim of an illusionary God, the abject slave of his crafty ministers. The Irish, Italian, and Slavonian peasant will starve himself and see his family starving and naked to feed and clothe his padre and pope. For two thousand years India groaned under the weight of caste, Brahmins alone feeding on the fat of the land, and to-day the followers of Christ and those of Mahomet are cutting each others throats in the names of and for the greater glory of their respective myths. Remember the sum of human misery will never be diminished unto that day when the better portion of humanity destroys in the name of Truth, morality, and universal charity, the alters of these false gods."

        Khoot Hoomi Lal Singh (Master K. H.)  1851

        from  "The Mahatma Letters to A. P. Sinnett"

        •  Great, great quote. (none)
          This "evil" has been with us for a very long time, now.

          Should we not consider eliminating it?  Disestablish dogma, organized religion, preachers.  Let the faithful gather in their rooms and worship together, and the early Christers did.  But stop organized religion.  It will bring us no good that disorganized religion cannot provide.

          -9.25, -7.54

          Who's a guy got to deny having sex with to get impeached around here?

          by Marc in KS on Sun Jan 22, 2006 at 04:25:01 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  And the other side of the coin (none)
          Religion does good too. Amen!
        •  If Jefferson were alive today? (none)

          George Washington could rise from the grave with Thomas Jefferson at his side, and if they disagreed with the agenda du jour of the WH or Tom DeLay [snip]

          Oh, they would disagree. Most strenuously. Probably to the death.

          We mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor -The Declaration of Independence

          by occams hatchet on Sun Jan 22, 2006 at 08:09:39 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  wow, (4.00)
    well written. This needs to be part of the democrats talking points. Lotsa zingers in there.
    •  here here! (none)

      YES!  The Ds would be crazy to not make the comparison.  Use Robertson and Osama as the figurehead pictures while the announcer reads off the points of similarity.  

      No one can call you anti-Christian for using Robertson's picture this way; the man himself has been making so many un-Christian statements that it's surprising he still has an audience.  And if you have to emphasize that, say something about how both of these madmen are fully out of phase with their own faiths, and show some kind of pictures to make the point.  

      •  In God They Trust (4.00)
        No, Democrat politicians follow the way the wind blows - on TV. That's why theocrats made so much out of the groundless media spin that "values voters" decided the election - somehow more than the much larger group of "masochistic laborers" who also vote for Bush. Because now, part of the "conventional wisdom" (regardless of "intellectual fact") is that Robertson Christians are an unopposable force in American politics. The poser Christians who control their media puppet with a few tiny, unsnappable strings have managed to turn "separation of church and state" into "persecution of christians". Of course they'll turn any defense from even such an antichristian as Robertson into "an attack on religion". Robertson's audience seems bigger than ever, despite your surprise.

        What success would take would be someone like Billy Graham calling out Robertson. Graham's credentials include converting Bush Jr from alcoholic to Jesusfreak - pointing out Robertson as a dangerous hypocrite, seducing real christians with his forked tongue and worldly temptation, would resonate within the christian feedback loop enough to at least get christians to think about the difference between Robertson and Jesus, between prophets real and false. But Graham has passed his own Christian business empire on to his family. Though a real christian would just tell the moral truth, leaving audiences to decide whether to cast moneychanger Robertson out of the TV temple, his silence speaks volumes. These greedy, powerdrunk takers of god's name in vain would never rock the boat that's delivered them to their golden shores, despite their eternal reward.

      •  My first thought (none)
        on reading your post was that Robertson hasn't presided over any kooks flying planes into buildings packed with people.

        However...think about all the untold suffering, loss, loneliness, bitterness, and resentment that foul piece of trash has caused by fomenting bigotry and hatred over the years. I'm sure it comes to a tidy sum.

        •  Also, (none)
          consider that these are the people who condone, if not actually encourage, shooting abortion doctors and beating to death gays.  And even if they aren't condoning these things, they use their small, petty gods to damn people to hell.  We haven't had a pogrom in this country, yet.  It seems that the atmosphere is increasingly conducive to one, though.

          Can there possibly be another form of human activity that has caused as much suffering as religion?

          I don't think it's even close.

          -9.25, -7.54

          Who's a guy got to deny having sex with to get impeached around here?

          by Marc in KS on Sun Jan 22, 2006 at 04:23:20 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  So True (4.00)
    The British Documentary "The Power of Nightmares" tracks the birth of the Neoconservative movement along with the rise of radical Islam.

    According to the film, they developed around the same time and in reaction to many of the same forces in society.  Both movements felt as though modern society was leaving behind the essence of what is good.

    The Anti-Sam Brownback Blog
    Keep Senator Brownback out of the Whitehouse.

    by KansasNate on Sat Jan 21, 2006 at 07:49:23 PM PST

    •  Power of Nightmares (none)
      is an excellent documentary -- highly recommended viewing.
    •  the essence of good, or...? (4.00)
      The desire to restore goodness is hardly sufficient to impel some of the more overt evils that these movements have spawned, from bigotry to bombings.  

      What is at work here is the reaction against uncertainty by attempting to re-impose rigid certainties.  

      By "uncertainty" I mean everything from the fundamental insights of modern science, to the changes in gender roles and gender identities.  People whose mental development has not gotten past the early-childhood stage of concrete thinking, are positively terrified by this stuff: they can barely grasp abstraction as such, much less fundamental uncertainty across the board.  

      To this, add the legitimate conservative value of skepticism toward change (or more precisely, toward changefulness or rapid change for its own sake), and you end up with a large movement whose fringes are capable both of excess and of using excess to lead others.  

      If we want to fight this at its foundations, we have to address this point.  Doing so might stir up a frenzy of hatred from the concrete-thinkers, but that might make them shoot themselves in their own feet sufficiently to lose the rest of their audience and isolate themselves into harmlessness.  

      •  So True (none)
        "What is at work here is the reaction against uncertainty by attempting to re-impose rigid certainties."

        What I meant to say was they want to return to what they think of as good.  Something certain and comforting.

        You are absolutely correct.  Change scares them beyond belief.  

        The Anti-Sam Brownback Blog
        Keep Senator Brownback out of the Whitehouse.

        by KansasNate on Sat Jan 21, 2006 at 10:55:44 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Parallel Evolution by Design (none)
      We've still got Amish Christians and Chasiddic Jews living side by side with secular Americans. Fundamentalist Mormons and other 19th Century science fiction cult members. As long as the cult perpetuates political power over a sustainable community, it persists - for centuries, changing only just enough to survive, if at all.
      •  One difference (none)
        I have never heard of the Amish getting violent or forcing their views on anyone.
        •  Believe It or Not (none)
          I'm not saying the Amish are equal to the Qaeda or the Christaliban. Nor are Chasids, Mormons, or even Hale-Bopp Heaven's Gaters. I'm just pointing out that medieval cults are completely consistent with the modern age. I agree with your point that those cults need not go Branch Davidian, and can perpetuate without violence (apparently). Though I do disagree about forcing their views, as they do force their views on their own children, as do we all.
    •  There are parallels to be drawn (none)
      with the left as well, as far as turning away from crass materialism and empty, souless ways of living.  To illustrate: I was having an interesting discussion with a group of fellow actors once.  I was the resident flaming liberal, and another was the resident fundamentalist Christian. A sweet-tempered guy, a good friend, he just had this kooky religious thing that I could not grasp.  Anyway, the discussion was about ethics.  A fellow actress had done a local commercial for the Republican party, even though she was a liberal.  I was quite shocked, and said as much.  I asked the other actors if they would perform in a commercial or show that was against their value system.  Most seemed to say, "Sure."  A job is a job.  What you say in a commercial doesn't have anything to do with who you are, you are acting a part.  I asked my fundamentalist friend if he would, for example, do a commercial advertising  Scientology.  He said, emphatically, no.  And I realized that I had a lot more in common with my kooky religious friend than a lot of the other people in the room.
      Many on the left reject the materialism of the mainstream.  They reject a consumer society that devalues human dignity and puts profit above all.  They often live strictly according to these values, becoming vegetarians, eating only organic foods, only buying clothes from non-sweatshop companies, boycotting Wal-Mart and other big box stores.  Bicycling whenever they can.  They even try to get other people to follow their examples.  They say that our society is headed for a bad way unless we all do our part and reform our wasteful ways.
      I am not equating clinic bombers with vegetarians, or anything silly like that.  I'm just saying there is common ground to be found out there, if you look for it.  The main ground being that both are looking for a meaningful, spiritual life in a culture that seems increasingly shallow and material.
      Sorry for the long post. (:

      If not for the cat,
      And the scarcity of cheese
      I could be content.
      --Jack Prelutsky

      by Reepicheep on Sun Jan 22, 2006 at 12:00:21 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  No Difference (4.00)
    Feminists have been making this point for a while - just different versions of patriarchy as far as women are concerned.  
    •  I want to name a daughter 'Athena' (none)
      but my wife hates the idea. I may have to settle for sneaking it in as a middle name. It's not really used, but it's feminine sounding, and has a great story.

      Bush Wants Absolute Power To Run A War He Lied To Start.

      by bejammin075 on Sat Jan 21, 2006 at 08:22:57 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Kids whose parents (none)
        who listen to oldies stations on the way to soccer practice would be singing Pete Townsend songs to her.

        The revolution is ongoing.

        by The Gryffin on Sat Jan 21, 2006 at 08:53:19 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  before you name her Athena . . . (none)
        you might want to examine the Athenian myths in depth. Athena was not exactly what you might have in mind to represent feminity. You may want to examine your perception of feminity first and then look deeply into the myth.

        Athena was a virgin goddess. Virgin was defined differently in those days whether it applied to a goddess or a human female, and most certainly did not mean she still retained her hymen. Virgin meant that she was not bound to any male for her livelihood: not husband, father or brother. She was completely independent, materially and spiritually.

        Athena sprang forth as a fully-formed adult, dressed in armor for battle, from the forehead of her father Zeus. She was the goddess of war, and as such Athenian armies offered prayers for victory to her before all battles. She was dual-natured and was also the goddess of peace. Her myth is rich in duality, both good and bad. She had many roles worthy of her name. Athena was also the goddess of culture.

        As an adult, I often thought of leagally changing my name to Athena. Second thoughts won out, for the better, I believe.

        Saddling a child with a name that insinuates divinity might be a burden or an inspiration.

        Just think carefully about ANY name's effect on the child who carries it.

  •  Here, here!! (none)
    "Enough of that crap," Indeed!

    "Oblivious! In Denial! Dangerous!"--Nancy Pelosi on GWB. IMHO, excellent summation.

    by oofer on Sat Jan 21, 2006 at 07:49:37 PM PST

  •  Is Osama really against stem cell? (none)
         Might get him off kidney dialysis...
    •  well we know (4.00)
      he's pro terrorist cell.

      "You'd like that shit...it's all political and morose."

      by Miss Devore on Sat Jan 21, 2006 at 07:54:37 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  You didn't just come up with that. (none)
        Come on.  You didn't come up with something that good for a one-line response.

        Jumping on the politicalcompass.org bandwagon: (-3.63, -3.03) - Does that make me part of the right wing here?

        by someone else on Sat Jan 21, 2006 at 09:27:05 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Oh, come now ... (4.00)
      None of them are ever against using stuff that would help them personally. It's always the stuff that might help sinners. The privileged purveyors of this crap always would happily eat a baby if it helped them while railing the whole time against poor people's lack of ethics. Extremism walks hand in hand with hypocrisy. THere's a reason, in my opinion, that Jesus spoke out on that sin more than most.
    •  The March of Science (none)
      Hell, I've never particularly associated Creationism with Fundamentalist Islam, either (at the very least, it's hard to imagine that any folks over there who are at all close to the oil industry could be Young Earth types: As Glenn Morton could tell you, if you work from Young Earth assumptions, you don't strike oil). I suspect that Creationism is still primarily a bugaboo specific to portions of American Protestant Fundamentalism.
  •  Link please (none)
    I think a lot of us would enjoy a field trip to the site where you had this convo with our conservative friends. Probably deleted by now, though.
  •  I work with some of these people (4.00)
    They serve, like me, in the Armed Forces.  They think they are doing right.  As do I.  I am known as "the honest liberal".  Lately, I've quit confronting them.  But, I don't hear them spouting off as much, either.  I think they are disturbed by much of what passes for GOP policy these days.  I don't press them.  I think there is some sort of simmering period going on - a digestion of the events of the last few months.  Osama's latest missive came and went almost without comment.  I think many are deeply disturbed that he is still breathing.  We'll see...

    Drag out the klezmer and start acting like a man, 'cause you are about to get a truthmitzvah!

    by calipygian on Sat Jan 21, 2006 at 07:51:18 PM PST

    •  agreed: they're thinking it over. (none)

      I agree with you; your fellow warriors are thinking it over and coming to new conclusions.  You're right to not press them about issues at this point.  

      The emergence of the "unified executive state", while our arch-enemy is still running around making broadcasts, is so blatantly creepy.  I have got to believe that Americans know enough history to know what we're seeing at this point is not healthy and has to change.  

    •  simmering indeed... (4.00)
      even here on my local level.
      But first, I honor your service,thank you.

        I've had 3 staunch republicans(the real ones) call me in the last two weeks to let me know they had changed their minds about bushco. I had challenged them to remember what their party really stood for, not the neo-con bullshit, and gave them material to back it up. It took about a month, then the NSA crap.  When they called, I challenged them to go to their fellow R's LOCALLY and change their minds. So we shall see what seeds grow.
      Sorry this was so long, but as an ald Army Brat, you're post touched me.

      -6.13,-5.64 Our parents wouldn't allow us to have an easy button, but they did give us state-of-the-art bullshit detectors.

      by imabluemerkin on Sat Jan 21, 2006 at 08:18:13 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Liberaltarian Unity (4.00)
      Now is the time to start reminding your friends that you're a "libertarian": your politics is defined by supporting the Constitution. When they say "liberal", reply with "libertarian". Often enough that they won't notice the difference. It worked for the Bush fascists with "Conservative", and the libertarian/al co-opt has the advantage of being true (assuming that you do support the Constitution, of course).
  •  cults in general (none)
    lots of similarities across all kinds of categories...set rules, an authority figure, community discipline....DailyKos  ! ! ! !

    If we shall fail to defend the Constitution, I shall fail in the attempt.

    by spoon or no spoon on Sat Jan 21, 2006 at 07:51:28 PM PST

  •  Rove's mid-term campaign theme (4.00)
    Who would have guessed that Rove's mid-term campaign theme would be GWOT? I am shocked.

    So we are going to be entertained by another season of Rove's "if you're not with us, you are for the terrorists". How predictable!

    This coming from a team yet to get Osama "dead or alive" Bin Forgotten who continues to roam free and occassionally send us videos and audios to help buddy Karl.

    The team that created terrorists where none existed in the "Mission Accomplished" Iraq that continues on its way to civil war and victory to the theocracy in Iran.

    The team where emergency response to disaster in the US is "heckuva job" Katrina.

    If the Dems can't see this coming and go on the offensive now by not changing the subject but instead focusing on GWOT and the FUBAR situation that Karl's team has created; and, if the American electorate can be bamboozled for a fourth time by swiftboats and smear and can't see the incompetence and culture of corruption of the Rethugs; then even God can't help the Republic.

    We must resolve to only support fighters who will take the fight to the Rethugs with no apology during the Dem primaries! Only, then do we have a chance to prevent a complete takeover by the right wing extremists.

    •  Rove and Osama (4.00)
      I always wonder why no one notices that Rove and Osama could almost be in cohoots.  It's a ridiculous idea, but really, is there a better pairing in the world than GWB/Rove and UBL?

      Think about it.  UBL strikes America to try to create a war between the West and Islam.  Bush, rather than containing the war within Afghanistan and the destruction of Al Qaeda manages to start a generalized war in the Middle East with the Iraq war and deprioritizes the hunt for the guy who actually attacked us.  Could UBL have scripted the US response any better?  Or the attack on civil liberties and government spread of fear?  UBL wouldn't have been nearly as successful in his jihadist objective if it weren't for Bush.  I think that's why he releases these tapes, like the one before the 2004 election which made it sound like a vote for Kerry was a vote for him.  UBL loves Bush.  How could he not?  Bush played right into his hands by starting a war against Muslims while simultaneously undermining the basis of US democracy.

      I expect UBL to continue to release tapes attacking the American left wing and supporting Bush for as long as he is alive.  The left wing is UBL's enemy, and Bush is a gift from Allah.  We're the ones who want the focus to actually be on the people who attacked our country rather than some ill-conceived crusade against Middle Eastern countries as a whole.  It may sound like isolationism on the part of liberals, but sheesh, no one doubts we could have chosen our battles more wisely.  

      If Democrats were smart they'd turn this debate on its ear and say, hey, why does it sound so much like UBL wants Bush to stay in power?  Could it be because Bush seems to be fulfilling his objective of a jihad against the West?  Could it be because our wars in Muslim countries are weakening our country and diminishing our power and respect worldwide?  Maybe UBL is telling us a vote for Bush is a vote for him.

      •  Osama thanks Allah for GW every day. (none)
        A connection between the administration and OBL would not surprise me in the least. If the Dems were in control back in 2000, Osama would be dead as opposed to thousands of good American kids.
        I think the Dem talking point for Osama's latest tape should be "Five years, 20 trillion dollars, and a host of illegal wiretaps: why are 2000+ American soldiers dead and Osama still alive?"

        "No matter where you go, there you are" -Buckaroo Banzai "I drank what?" -Socrates

        by UEtech on Sat Jan 21, 2006 at 11:49:39 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Huh. (none)
    And here I thought you were going soft on us after that Know Your Creationists diary below.

    Mark Twain -Let me make the superstitions of a nation and I care not who makes its laws or its songs either.

    by Kingsmeg on Sat Jan 21, 2006 at 07:52:39 PM PST

  •  wow-this is "Hunterrific" (4.00)
    thanks

    "You'd like that shit...it's all political and morose."

    by Miss Devore on Sat Jan 21, 2006 at 07:53:04 PM PST

  •  Here's some real hardball (4.00)
    Faith itself is the problem. Faith is not a method for finding the truth. Faith is wishful thinking and nothing more. World views should be grounded in and guided by the scientific method, with uncertainty as a virtue. Certainty ("strong faith") is a vice.
    •  Wrong (none)
      Many, many people are motivated by faith to do good works--Sister Helen Prejian (sp?) the ardent death penalty opponent for one. Many people who volunteer in homeless shelters and soup kitchens are motivated by religious faith. These are true Christians/Muslims/etc.

      "All governments lie, but disaster lies in wait for countries whose officials smoke the same hashish they give out." --I.F. Stone

      by Alice in Florida on Sat Jan 21, 2006 at 08:54:56 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Disagree (none)
      I am a staunch atheist and I have to disagree with this assertion. I have incredible strong faith, faith in ideals, of the human spirit and mind. I just don't worship or believe in a supernatural sky=-father.

      That said, I fully recognize that faith is a huge motivator for many/most people. Both for good and for bad depending on what, how and in what context. The same faith that gave us MLK and the civil rights movement also motivated the inquisition and clinic-bombers.;

      cheers,

      Mitch Gore

      A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything.

      by Lestatdelc on Sat Jan 21, 2006 at 09:09:56 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  of Faith and Fear (none)
        Faith and Fear are two strong motivators.

        Some leaders rely on faith, but many of the most powerful rely on fear (most obviously Cheney/Bush spring to mind, though history is FULL of others).

        Cheney/Bush count on frightened people to do as they are told. They have a flock, and the flock duck and huddle and scurry whenever they get confused or sense their flockmate doing the same.

        Sheep fear the unknown and our current shepherds are using the news media to keep us in the dark. A more informed populus would go great lengths in restoring my faith.

    •  We Know More than We Know (none)
      Faith, like proof, is a way to find truth. Proof is much more reliable, even offering a way to know whether what we've found is true. But proof cannot know everything - metaphysics, for example. So there is a role for faith. Even if its truths can only be distinguished from its mistakes by luck, or perhaps something else, with decisions governed by logic.

      To push the issue, there's another kind of knowledge between proof and faith: belief. That's truth that could be proven, but has not been proven to the believer, who accepts the belief as truth anyway. The logic behind that acceptance is usually  inference, a very weak and unreliable logic, but often is just faith. Someone we trust for some unrelated reason, like "they gave birth to us", or "they taught me algebra".

      It's important to acknowledge that we do not really  accept "truth" by personal applications of science, in all but rare cases. We live our lives on a lot of faith and belief, much more than what we get proven. We must also accept that proof trumps belief and faith, when it is available. But if we claim only science as our way to truth, we're either lying to ourselves about our basic mental status, or we're emulating robots.

  •  Brilliant Diary. (4.00)

    "He that sees but does not bear witness, be accursed" Book of Jubilees

    by Lying eyes on Sat Jan 21, 2006 at 07:54:05 PM PST

  •  Thankya (4.00)
    Much as I argued in my diary, "Worse than bin Laden"

    Not saying that Pat Robertson is more evil, or as evil, as bin Laden.  Just that bin Laden has no chance (and probably no desire) to shove his narrow views down my throat.  Islamofascists may land some blows, but they'll never take over my government.  

    But Pat and his ilk are succeeding at an alarming rate.

  •  We've had our madrassas (3.60)
    for several decades now.

    http://www.pfaw.org/...

    Heritage.  

    AEI.

    Cato.

    Christian Broadcasting Network.

    and many, many more -- the "entrepreneurial spirit" of selling Hate.

    If a thousand men were not to pay their tax bills this year, that would not be a violent and bloody measure, as it would be to pay them, and enable the State...

    by HenryDavid on Sat Jan 21, 2006 at 07:58:01 PM PST

    •  "Cato", give me a break. (none)
      The left is more like the religious right than libertarians are.
      •  Give you a break? (4.00)
        Which arm?

        ;-)

        Seriously though, CATO is funded by the same foundations, Scaife, Olin, Bradley, who fund the entire Fright-WingTM infrastructure and "think tanks". They are also behind funding Joe Lieberman's campus thought police and Al From of the DLC.

        cheers,

        Mitch Gore

        A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything.

        by Lestatdelc on Sat Jan 21, 2006 at 09:04:26 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  "Joe Lieberman's campus thought police" (none)
          Thats a new one. Boy, you guys really hate Lieberman dont you lol. If the democratic party took Al From's advice more seriously we'd win more elections. So if the right wing is funding him they must want republicans to lose.

          Ill take your word for it that Scaife, etc... is funding Cato, but I don't see any evidence that its impacting their positions on issues. They still seem pretty libertarian to me. Recently they just came out against Bush subpoenaing Google for search data.

          My point is that both the left and the religious right are for big govt, just for different reasons. Often theyre opposite the same issue: censorship of hate speech vs censorship of profanity as one example. Libertarians are against censorship of both.

          •  Did you read the diary I linked to? (none)
            I have never heard of anyone on the left agitating for FCC or Gov. censorship for "hate speech". You are trotting out false dichotomy and equivalencies.

            And Al From is precisely why we have lost three election cycles in a row, by following Al From/DLC advice. So your suggestion has proven demonstratively wrong.

            cheers,

            Mitch Gore

            A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything.

            by Lestatdelc on Sat Jan 21, 2006 at 11:10:17 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Bill Clinton was DLC and he won twice. (none)
              Gore won too you could argue (as a centrist), and although Kerry was an northeast liberal he ran as a centrist and almost won too. Had he run to the left he wouldn't of had a chance.

              I did see your link, but havent read it yet. I will. I don't like that Lieberman has associated himself with Lynn Cheney and her group, but I need to know more about it.

              Liberals always counter a conservative argument about censorship of sex with "well, what about violence, what about Ahnold, and Bruce Willis, and Charlton Heston, etc...." Theres alot of pressure from left wing activists to put more women and minorities in lead roles in Hollywood, and part of the way they do that is to complain about all the gun violence in Hollywoood entertainment. And of course there are feminists that have allied themselves with the relgious right to try to censor porn. I belive there are hate speech laws too, but I can't think of any off hand. I know there are alot of rules on campuses though, and their are sexual harrassment laws that can be really ridiculous sometimes. The democratic party pretty much voted in lock step along with republicans to pass higher fines and threats of revolking licenses of broadcasters. And then theres poltical correctness too which is left wing, and although thats not written into law, its intimidating nonetheless. You can get banned from websites for saying the wrong thing about the wrong group. I think youre way too easy on the left regarding this, whereas I see the problem coming from both wings.

              •  Clinton (none)
                Was over a decade ago. And I post that his never winning a majority (only a plurality) and Gore having ti be so close that BushCo. could steal it are precisely the result of moving to the center. Notice that through that time period we lost Congress and control of the majority of Governorships.

                Your cartoon frames about what "liberals" and censorship is also useless. And your "pressure from left-wing activists" to put women and minorities in lead roles is laughable and pretty telling about what set on nonsense you have swallowed and where you are coming from.

                cheers,

                Mitch Gore

                A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything.

                by Lestatdelc on Sun Jan 22, 2006 at 12:46:21 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

      •  Cato... Brought to you by EXXON (none)
        Cato, ah yes that "Libertarian" powerhouse of rational thought, no true believers there.
        Global warming? Simply a chimaera.
        •  Thats not proof that theyre like the (none)
          religious right though. In fact, Ill bet the RR would probably disagree with Cato on that, all they care about is abortion, gays, and porn. You already know that though, thats how republicans keep them in the party.
          •  To operate with a priori... (none)
            assumptions toward subjects is the very essence of what it means to be a member of the religious Right. My point (and your earlier one) was not about specific tenets of their belief systems. Whether or not the "RR" would agree with them about anything was never my point, you are either being disingenuous or not grasping what is being discussed.
            •  Well that was my point, and you (none)
              were responding to ME. I think youre the one that doesn't grasp what's being discussed.
              •  Read the damn thread (none)
                I presume when you wrote: "The left is more like the religious right than libertarians are." you weren't arguing that they wish to veil women and insist on praying only facing East, were you? We were arguing attitudes, NOT specifics! Again whether the "RR" agrees with the specific tenets of CATO was NEVER the point. So it you that I'm afraid either, doesn't 'get it' or are pretending not to. (nyah-nyah-nyah, so there!)
  •  Please say it ain't so, DarkSyde... (none)
    you were once a republican??!! Just kidding, I was ust as bad as that; I was once a centrist.
    •  I (4.00)
      actually don't see conservatism per se as THE sole problem. It's one party rule that is the problem and it's always been one party rule behind the biggest cluster fucks in history, be it leftist, right wing, fascist, or communist. One party rule allows the one party to rig the game and steal the system blind while crushing any criticism, it doesn't matter how noble the motives of the original party that started out are, it always ends up the same way. Any party can have a good solution or a very bad one, but one party rule unchecked equates to the worst of human nature unchecked, and that's always bad news.

      Read UTI, your free thought forum

      by DarkSyde on Sat Jan 21, 2006 at 08:11:34 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  "love of money...." (none)
        ....as Paul said, "is the root of ALL evil."  

        Single-party states degenerate into kleptocracies because they can.  

      •  But the democratic party (none)
        has never been unified, so it doesn't really count as one party. Like Will Rogers said, "I don't belong to any organized political party--I'm a Democrat."

        In fact, it's in the nature of our two-party system for the two parties to have room for multiple factions--the evil that has infected today's Republican party is not just one-party rule, but one-party rule dominated by an ideologically extreme faction.

        "All governments lie, but disaster lies in wait for countries whose officials smoke the same hashish they give out." --I.F. Stone

        by Alice in Florida on Sat Jan 21, 2006 at 09:00:08 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  cliché, but... (none)
        "Absolute power corrupts, absolutely."

        "Whatever you do will be insignificant, but it is very important that you do it." -Gandhi

        by midvalley on Sun Jan 22, 2006 at 01:29:29 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Beat the fundie wedge. (4.00)
    None of the pot-smoking coke-snorting beer-guzzeling republicans in the greater Clear Lake area likes those bizzy-bodies.

    Nobody likes a damn party-pooper.

    Its a wedge, beat it hard.

    Now with new improved snark !!

    by SnarkyShark on Sat Jan 21, 2006 at 07:59:36 PM PST

  •  What were some of your eerie parallels? (none)
    Great diary!

    Bush is NOT America!

    by annefrank on Sat Jan 21, 2006 at 07:59:58 PM PST

  •  It's called propaganda and the Repugs (none)
    are great at it. The Dems have been fighting with one hand tied behind their back since the Clinton Healthcare debate. They tied their own hands and we have been paying for it ever since.

    I hope they take your advice but I don't have a lot of hope.

    To sin by silence when they should protest makes cowards of men~~ Abraham Lincoln

    by Tanya on Sat Jan 21, 2006 at 08:01:22 PM PST

  •  I can see it (none)
    It's a great visual... I'd love to see this made into a commercial. It wouldn't have to mention a single democratic or independent candidate... or even a republican for that matter. It's so clear, and so frightening.

    'course, nobody but moveon would dare make it

  •  The amazing thing (4.00)
    is that OBL appears on tape, alive and kicking and breathing fresh oxygen - and it is the REPUBLICANS that are on the offensive.

    We simply are not as good as spinning as they are.  You would think that when OBL appears on tape the reaction would be outrage that we have not caught him yet.  This man is THE GREATEST MASS MURDER OF AMERICAN CVILIANS IN HISTORY.

    But the media never asks questions about where OBL is.  You never read reports about the efforts to find him.

    As I said - it' amazing.

  •  If their cause is so just, why all the weaseling? (4.00)
    That's the biggest hole in the argument that they're only trying to represent the 'Real' America. If so, they wouldn't go to such lengths to hide their beliefs behind dense multi-layered hooey. eg,

    Harriet Miers wasn't activist or ideological enough for the extremist Family Research Council, but they gave their ringer scAlito a "Golden Gavel" award and are now having a pray-a-thon to get him on the SCOTUS. (That's their prerogative, of course.)

    * FRC's objective is to establish a conservative Christian standard of morality in all of America's domestic and foreign policy.
    * FRC has dedicated itself to working against reproductive freedom, sex education, equal rights for gays and lesbians and their families, funding of the National Endowment for the Arts and the Corporation for Public Broadcasting. FRC supports a school prayer amendment and would like to `disestablish' the Department of Education. (People for the American Way)

    Pretending it's okay to lie his way past the confirmation process to scam his way onto the bench is bad enough, but let's not pretend that scAlito's views, judicial temperament or intentions are have even a passing acquaintance with today's mainstream.
    .

    If scAlito is mainstream, why lie about his record? Anyone? Bueller? scAlito?

    by Peanut on Sat Jan 21, 2006 at 08:12:11 PM PST

  •  Very tricky (none)
    very, very tricky

    Bush Wants Absolute Power To Run A War He Lied To Start.

    by bejammin075 on Sat Jan 21, 2006 at 08:12:49 PM PST

  •  bravo!!! (none)
    This is one of the best posts I've seen on DAILY KOS yet. I have often very gently pointed out to some Republican colleagues that their party's policies are eerily similar to Al Qaeda's.

    peace and eddies, redboat

    by redboat on Sat Jan 21, 2006 at 08:14:15 PM PST

  •  We Are the World (none)
    I bet most Muslims tell their kids that their religion's medieval fundamentalists are a thing of the past, that they're just a few hicks somewhere harmlessly remote. That the ones in control of dangerous countries like Pakistan, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Syria, are just posing as zealots to get some extra political support. Meanwhile secretly relieved that the nutjobs are doing the dirty work to make the world more like the one familiar to them. Why should they be any different from us? And why should that make us accept them, or the way that we are like that?
    •  huh? (none)
      Could you clarify a bit more what you mean? Do you mean that you think most Muslims secretly support al-Qa'ida? If so, do you have any evidence of this?
      •  They Are Us (none)
        As I stated, I believe most Muslims are like most non-Muslims. Silence in the face of evil in god's name is tacit support. I see that Islam and the religions here in America (mostly Judaism and Christianity) each tacitly support their own perceived national interests. Though that completely opposes the religious values that so many claim both overrides and underwrites those national interests.

        The biggest issue in Islam today, except perhaps the abuse of Islam by tyrants to kick down their Muslim subjects, is the abuse of Islam by terrorists to kill and make war. I don't hear about Muslim leaders denouncing either of those abuses, except in America and occasionally European countries which have been attacked by Muslim terrorists. And I look, both on the Internet and through people I've met while traveling in several Muslim countries.

        To be even more clear: this setup, where people around the world talk about god while accepting and rationalizing mass murder, is not unique to foreign Muslims. But by looking at them, we can see some of our own major malfunctions. That's certainly worth investigating. We have to be the change we want to see in the world.

  •  Good stuff. (none)

    ... we now know a lot of things, most of which, we already knew... (-dash888)

    by Tirge Caps on Sat Jan 21, 2006 at 08:31:32 PM PST

  •  Nothing like straight to the point (none)
    I can use this as another talking point.  This will be very helpful.
    One of the best, and that's going some, DarkSyde.

    -6.13,-5.64 Our parents wouldn't allow us to have an easy button, but they did give us state-of-the-art bullshit detectors.

    by imabluemerkin on Sat Jan 21, 2006 at 08:37:24 PM PST

  •  First, this is great stuff. (4.00)
    Second, for those interested in the geography of political thought, this meaty page will provide nourishment for the journey, if not a complete map.  (Disregard the section on Art, unless you read "Propaganda" for "Art".)  The writer contends that the Political Compass (popular here) misconstrues the lay of the land.  In his scheme, the brotherhood of fundamentalists is more clearly shown:  their plots of land are right next to each other.

    Returning to the thesis of the diary:  absofuckinglutely!  Bring it on!  It's time to call a spade a spade, a heart a heart, a diamond a diamond, and Karl Rove the King of Clubs.

    BushAmerica -- Now killing 24/7/365. *Your tax dollars at work*.

    by Yellow Canary on Sat Jan 21, 2006 at 08:37:59 PM PST

  •  But, but, but... (none)
    ...they are evil madmen!  (You know, Satan on earth... or rather, out of touch with reality.)  Living in the past.  Still fighting a war that has long since ended.  And they're mass murderers.  And of course the way they treat "their women" is shameful!  Oh, and have you seen the way they dress???  Don't even get me started.

    I hardly think the analogy is appropriate.
    /snark

    (Amazingly, through some magical coincidence of space-time, these same exact words, give or take a reference to God or Allah, were spoken simultaneously in a parlor somewhere in suburbia and in a cave somewhere in Pakistan.)

    (-7.75, -6.05).   Life is like this analogy...

    by shock on Sat Jan 21, 2006 at 08:41:47 PM PST

    •  You mean (none)
      like this?

      bin Laden Nov 2002: We call you to be a people of manners, principles, honour, and purity; to reject the immoral acts of fornication, homosexuality, intoxicants, gambling's, and trading with interest.

      "How can there be peace when drunkards, drug dealers, communists, atheists, New Age worshipers of Satan, secular humanists, oppressive dictators, greedy money changers, revolutionary assassins, adulterers, and homosexuals are on top?"--Pat Robertson, The New World Order, p.227

      Read UTI, your free thought forum

      by DarkSyde on Sun Jan 22, 2006 at 04:38:24 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Fuckin' A DS... spot on as usual. (none)

    cheers,

    Mitch Gore

    A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything.

    by Lestatdelc on Sat Jan 21, 2006 at 08:51:37 PM PST

  •  Bang On (none)
    Little fundie creeps are the same the world over. How they detest tolerance!!

    Canada - where a pack of smokes is ten bucks and a heart transplant is free.

    by dpc on Sat Jan 21, 2006 at 08:56:57 PM PST

  •  Let's start by blasting their poster-boy, Alito (4.00)
    to kingdom come by fillibuster.  Send the bastards a message that The Democrats "Worst Nightmare" ain't gonna happen (you dumb shit, Frist).  Let's bitch-slap them till they go cryin home to Mama and are afraid to go to school in the morning.
  •  Brilliant in every part. (none)
  •  Same song (none)
       I agree with the sentiment, but Darksyde hasn't said anything new.  Hell, the whole "anti-choice, antilife, anticivil rights, but wait, surprise! it's not Republicans but Al-Qaeda" has been done to DEATH.  The horse is dead, beaten, and raped. In fact, I haven't heard anything new from anyone in Dailykos in quite some time.  This isn't an indictment as much an observation.
       In a week where traditional media turned up the stupid to deafening levels, I think we need to face a fact.  We, as a culture, as a group who want to change the shape of power, have hit a pretty big fuckin brick wall. Right now, the biggest success is  Brokeback Mountain and that is IT.  SO please lets stop posting the same thing over and over.  What we need to be discussing is how to grow a culture, supporting rights of all kinds that has significant influence over traditional media.

    I have carried you on my back like a poor man carries everything---Lucille Clifton

    by TigrMchine on Sat Jan 21, 2006 at 09:12:44 PM PST

  •  all fundies are alike - even marxists (none)
    all fundies are alike - i agree with that. sometimes on the far left we forget that our own far left can be like that too. we have to be careful in our own rhetoric how much we often contribute to reinforcing these fundie-battles.
    just a cautionary note.
  •  nitpick (none)
    The extreme religious rightwing of the GOP is the closest thing to Islamo-fascism we have in our country...

    ...other than, say, Islamo-fascism. Hey, the US is a broad church. We should welcome the presence of these extremists on both sides. I just wish that, in their own ways, they weren't either of them running the country.

  •  Fundamentalism and the rigidity of (none)
    thought that accompanies it is a big problem, no matter what kind of fundamentalism it is.

    "And you can dream--So dream out loud--And don't let the bastards grind you down." Bono, Acrobat, Achtung Baby

    by lecsmith on Sat Jan 21, 2006 at 09:52:49 PM PST

  •  There isn't a word anyone could add to this diary (none)
    that could better describe the current political situation and the necessary direction the opposition should take. The tincture of truth will sting at first, but the relief will be sweet.
    Now is the time to fight back!

    There'll never be a perfect world till God declares it that way, but that don't mean there's nothing we can do or say... Bruce Cockburn

    by elbamash on Sat Jan 21, 2006 at 09:58:21 PM PST

    •  Bruce missed the point--- (none)
                       there will never be a perfect world until the GOPmob gets God to fall in line and declare it 'their way'. Can you not hear the sounds from the torture room, "God convert or die!"?
  •  McVeigh was a conservative (none)
    Timothy McVeigh was a conservative. It is conservatives that have sworn to destroy the government. It is conservatives that got upset when the government tried to arrest religious fanatics with weapons of mass destruction (wackos in Wako). Hey, if Iran had weapons of mass destruction then so did Wako. Conservatives have simply found a new way to destroy the government. They will destroy it from the inside with extreme incompetence and massive budget deficits.

    Red is the color of my car, not my politics.

    by redneonexpress on Sat Jan 21, 2006 at 09:59:27 PM PST

  •  Question (none)
    I was listening to Air America and 2-3 moderate Repubs called in during the discussion of gay marriage vs civil unions.  The topic got down to the point that these people didn't mind them getting insurance, hospital visits, the right to file taxes jointly, and etc. etc.  So they had nothing to complain about.  It was very odd because they seemed open-minded, but then it hit me in the face.  They don't want them to have SEX!!!!  What is that??? Can anyone describe where that comes from and why?  

    It's SEX!!!!

    •  Did it just occur to you (none)
      This evening, that we are a nation of sexophobes? Did you miss that whole "wardrobe malfunction" thing 2 years ago?

      Well, it's not just sex, really. This country has a puritanical, pathological aversion to pleasure whenever it's obtained for its own sake.

      Just to keep this on topic, I reckon the Wahhabi folks suffer from a similar pathology :)

      (Bring to a boil, add oil, then bomb)

      by Tiny Wurlitzer on Sun Jan 22, 2006 at 02:55:49 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Parallels (none)
    Read an interesting book by John Krakauer, "Under The Banner of Heaven" and while I have no agenda concerning the Mormon church, it drew parallels between the Mormons and  Fundamental Islam as well. Both are the fastest growing religions in the world, both are insular, and consider themselves apart from the world. Both devalue science and education. The Evangelicals think that it is their brand of Christianity that will be combined with the melding of church and state. They should look over their shoulders at the religion that has surpassed the membership numbers of both Judaism and Episcopalions.
  •  funny... (none)
    really, you're making a big deal over something we all take so for granted.  the brand "american taliban" has long added value to the currency of our conversations.

    the "radical claric" james dobson formulation is also common.  

    Yes, we've always been familiar with the evil resulting from "god defines sin"  being taken as "god commands the state to prevent and punish all sin."  we took it for granted that we had decided to approach the state's roll with caution lest the evils ensue.  now bishops hunger for the inqusition and ministers for the lash and the stake.

    but that's not all.  

    dig their sophistication in and dedication to getting masses of people to believe that doing evil is doing good, perpitrators are victims, that the aggressor is the threatened, that embezzlement is husbandry, that facts are fiction, emotion is exalted and reason unworthy, that hate breeds tolerance and love breeds ruthlessness.  and this in a people used to science and technology, and in a country with the era's strongest military.

    does that sound to you like obl/aq?

    you want to use the truth as a weapon?  that "american taliban" is a fair and and hopefully sobering construct.   ok.

    what of the other inescapable comparisons.  less apt, but inapt?  so far those only have currency as small arms fire in outer blogos.  

    so...the big rove machine now pitches that we have gone from pawns to partners of obl.  

    if we hit that one out of the park, he who must not be named and the devil himself are in the bullpen.  

    batter up?

       

    we'll stand him up against a wall and pop goes the weasel /rufus t. firefly

    by 2nd balcony on Sat Jan 21, 2006 at 11:28:52 PM PST

  •  I say we go swiftboat (none)
    Start an Organization called "Republicans For Binladen" and run campaign ads about how he understands family values and would be the perfect President to follow through on President Bush's agenda.

    Make it looks like a draft binladen effort.

    He who lives in the present, has no knowledge of the past nor vision for the future.

    by DeanDemocrat on Sat Jan 21, 2006 at 11:39:28 PM PST

  •  This Diary (none)
    Is absolutely brilliant.

    Should be emphasized over and over and over again.

    The tiny sliver of humanity represented by the radical Christian right, the radical Jewish right and the radical Islamic right is destroying this world through their escalating intolerance, fear, ignorance and hatred.

    Fight back against the encroaching darkness.  Fight back against these reptile-brained paranoids and their self-fulfilling, dark delusions.

    Enlightenment.  Peace.  Compassion.  Communication.  Empathy. Love.

    Fight back against the suicidal, homicidal demands and dictates of these demon-haunted provincials with the light of Reason.

    Let There Be Light

    America is like a game of monopoly that has ended, but everyone is forced to keep playing forever.

    by Necons Will Ban Me on Sat Jan 21, 2006 at 11:52:04 PM PST

  •  Good job. (none)
    After all, the enemy of my enemy is not necessarily my friend.
  •  Make It Our Platform THIS WORKS!!! (none)
    DarkSyde's words must get sent to Pelosi, Reid, Dean, and any other possible leader in the party.

    These first few paragraphs above the fold are the very best I have seen since 9/11. It's short, sweet and nails the truth home. Others tried to say a similar thing by calling neocons the American Taliban.

    But DarkSyde's tactic in laying it out for the reader to step into the trap is painfully convincing.

    Below the fold is excellent too. There DarkSyde makes the same point as Al Gore: power over all 3 branches places our CONSTITUTION IN PERIL.

    DarkSyde, you have framed the fight, and more importantly, you've identified a formidable tactic: HOLD UP A MIRROR TO REPUBLICANS that reflects their own dark side back to them. But more importantly, one that reflects their dark side to the American public at large.

    Here's hoping someone in the Democratic Leadership carefully reads your remarks. Perhaps some DailyKos bloggers and readers know how to get that done.

  •  This is great rhetoric! (none)
    I'm going to fax this to one of those liberal talk show hosts on TV!  Someone who has a national cable show like John Gibson and Chris Matthews, except a liberal.

    Let's see, there's . . . No, he's not on the air anymore.  What about . . . No, they fired him.

    There are some comedy shows, but this isn't very funny.

    You know, I can't think of a single news/opinion show on television that has a liberal host.

    We're boned.

  •  Make that opening a permanent DKos banner. (none)
    "They are vehemently against ...  my target here is actually Al Qaeda.."

    This is the message of our time.

  •  Why is that no one ever (none)
    refers to themselves as a "staunch" Democrat?

    Seriously.  I want to know.

    "Here's a fork of easy pie. Go on and cram it in your pie hole."

    by Batman Jones on Sun Jan 22, 2006 at 02:56:53 AM PST

    •  I do. (none)
      I always have.  I like the word "staunch," especially when I'm bleeding, and so like to use it whenever I can.

      But I think most people don't because words are fashions, and people tend to speak fashionably.  For whatever reason, "staunch" has become closely associated with Republicans.

      -9.25, -7.54

      Who's a guy got to deny having sex with to get impeached around here?

      by Marc in KS on Sun Jan 22, 2006 at 04:33:26 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Superstitious ignorance is (none)
    superstitious ignorance, it matters not the two thousand year old myth of a non-existent deity with which you wish to replace rational thought.  Once you cede decision making capacity to patriarchal sky-deities most notable for enshrining vengence and punishment and creating oppressive rules for women's behavior, you will find you are have not chosen a path to enlightenment.

    The most profound surprise of my life has been observing the triumph of superstition over science that I see around me on a daily basis.

    "But the sea is wide, and I can't swim over, and neither have I wings to fly . . ."

    by bobdevo on Sun Jan 22, 2006 at 03:37:59 AM PST

  •  Thanks, DarkSyde. (none)
    It's great to have you on the FP.

    Along with the creeping tyranny, we have creeping theocracy.

    The scary thing is that these people are impossible to convince otherwise.  They're right, and they know it as sure as you know you're reading this comment.

    A true believer is truly frightening to me.  Impossible to reason with (faith does not admit of reason), positive in his or her righteousness, and puffed up with the knowledge that they're on god's side.

    Remember right after September 11, there was that graphic floating around with an image of Osama and Bush, and both were saying, "My god's gonna kick your god's ass."

    In the middle, of course, are all those billions of people who have some different idea about what or who god is.

    -9.25, -7.54

    Who's a guy got to deny having sex with to get impeached around here?

    by Marc in KS on Sun Jan 22, 2006 at 04:30:43 AM PST

  •  Bang! Dead on DarkSyde!!!!! (none)
    Hit the nail on the head again...
  •  Calling dissention terror (none)
    is like calling the fire department arsonists.

    Only neo cons could be confused to that level and extent.

  •  The Parallels (none)
    drawn between major world religions are made easier by the fact several major religions (Islam, Christianity, Judaism) began in the middle east region.

    of those, Islam and Christianity are clearly patriarchal. looking at Sharia (Islam's strictest religious laws) and the way christian fundies in the U.S. use the Bible-- including extremists like Paul Hill and the rest who feel it justifiable to murder in order to save the lives of the unborn-- it becomes hard to discern a significant difference between Islamic extremists and christian extremists.

    the scary aspect is in both examples, we can see "law enforcement" looking the other way in terms of the extremists putting their beliefs into action.

    in many Muslim countries the "law" has nothing much to say when "dishonered" daughters or wives are killed by fellow family members.

    in the U.S. "right to lifers" have been using extreme harassement techniques for many years now against clinics, doctors and women seeking reproductive services-- all in the interest of making these services harder and harder for women and couples to obtain.

    the "law" here has more or less looked the other way and allowed this to go on way too long.

    "We have no right to surrender our inheritance to boors and tyrants". Paul Goodman 1962

    by Superpole on Sun Jan 22, 2006 at 08:00:28 AM PST

  •  I couldn't agree with you more! (none)
    100% spot on.
  •  this has been my favorite post from you (none)
    thanks for this.

    ronald reagan is the devil. proof: his names all have 6 letters. Ronald Wilson Reagan = 6 6 6.

    by danthrax on Sun Jan 22, 2006 at 04:26:42 PM PST

  •  I don't believe you (none)
    that you were ever a Republican. Unless it's like that ex-smoker phenomenon. What a terrific diatribe. Send it to Matthews. Not that he'll get it but it might make us feel better.
  •  real hardball... (none)
    If we put serious money into replacing oil imports with alternative sources of transportation energy (e.g. biodiesel)... the amount pissed away on Iraq to "fight terror"... the oil-based cash flow that supports terrorism disappears along with US oil imports.

    Without outside funding, non-state actors who want to use violence as a political tool will have to raise money locally and put time and resources into doing this as well as whatever kind of violence they have in mind, and that should reduce the size of the problem to one that can be handled by the law enforcement that's compatible with a democratic society.

    If the money wasted on "the war on terror" had been used instead on non-snakeoil security measures and replacing oil, we'd be about 25% of the way to replacing oil imports... and the price of oil would probably already be dropping.

    Looking for intelligent energy policy alternatives? Try here.

    by alizard on Mon Jan 23, 2006 at 12:05:49 AM PST

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