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Just now on Hardball Ron Reagan brought up and interesting aspect of this story that hasn't really taken legs yet.

There's another aspect to this too Chris, and that is whether the VP was interviewed by local law enforcement, or whether the Secret Service intervened in that.  If you or I shoot somebody, accidentally or not, we're going to talk to the cops about that and they're going to ask us a few questions.  Among them, 'have you been drinking'?  And apparantly, at least from what we're hearing now, they weren't allowed to do that to the VP.
There are plenty of us cynical enough around here to suspect a larger coverup by Cheney's people.  But, I have to say I hadn't considered this possibility yet.  Just another crime potentially committed by this VP?  A drunken accidental shooting?  If I'm a local DA, I think I'd have a few questions as to why there was not an immediate interrogation...

Update 18:00:00 - Changed title...

Originally posted to mstarr77 on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 02:48 PM PST.

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Comment Preferences

  •  I was having a debate last night with someone (4.00)
    over whether this could be considered reckless assault (the defitition is that the person has to have conscious disregard towards an unjustifiable risk).  I was saying, from what we know, I didn't see how it could possibly be considered reckless.

    That could change if alcohol was involved, no?

  •  Ron was (4.00)
    great...so was Pat Buchanan actually...everyone is incredulous about how badly this was managed.

    Cheney's drinking now can be the only explanation!

    •  i dont think it's the only explanation (4.00)
      I could see how the white house wouldn't want people to know that Cheney, you know...show someone, even if accidentally.  However, yes, it raises eyebrows definitely.
      •  It was handled like everything else Cheney touches (4.00)
        is handled.  Energy taskforce?  Lead-up to Iraq?  Relationship with Haliburton?  Were any of these not cloaked in secrecy?
      •  its certainly the leader in the clubhouse, tho n/t (none)

        The thing with politicians is I wouldn't have suspicions if I saw their worst positions and their ugly underneath...

        by mstarr77 on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 02:58:03 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Drinking and... (4.00)
        The first thing I said when I heard it was that maybe he'd been drinking. Still think that. Also, I have a theory, albeit a morbid one, on why they waited. If the injury is worse than they let on to begin with, which I think it is as most people do, maybe they were waiting to see if he survived surgery. It might be one thing to say he accidentally shot someone, it is another thing so say he accidentally shot someone and killed them. Even if you are Darth Cheney.

        They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. ~ Benjamin Franklin

        by melthewriter on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 04:00:13 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  In fairness, this wasn't badly managed at all. (4.00)
      I mean, how long would you think it SHOULD take to try to convince all your rich buddies who were out hunting with you to take the blame for the fact that you shot a guy in the face? Trust me, it's not easy to convince a guy with a 12-figure asset portfolio to take the fall for you, even if you are the Vice President.

      Clearly the VP's people spent ten hours making offers and threats and covering up evidence and saying to the injured guy, "Hey, wake up! Sign this waiver! We'll give you a check right now if you sign this statement saying you did it to yourself... Hello? Can you hear me? Hey, can we turn off the ambulance siren so we can negotiate something with this guy? Throw me a frickin' bone here!"

      And it probably would have worked too if the ranch-owner hadn't called the local newspaper and spilled the beans. I can see the headline now - "Illegal Mexican immigrant charged with shooting Cheney's hunting buddy - claims he's a patsy, was just mowing the lawn and cleaning up dead bird carcasses when he was arrested - Supreme Court dubs him 'enemy combatant' - no trial expected as suspect detained in secret prison."

      •  "Hello? Can you hear me?" (4.00)
        Dat's funny! Have a four.
      •  Remember the ex basketball player who shot (4.00)
        the limo driver by mistake with a shotgun. He killed him. He panicked and started a cover up, lying,destroying evidence etc. I forget his name but it was like a year ago.
         I can imagine the cover up that was concocted in that field. I hope one of the hunters is mad enough to flip on him. This is the kind of thing that "news" shows and tabloids (redundant?)would be all over. People might actually hear the rest of the criminal and evil things Cheney and Bush are doing.

        "Patriotism is loving your country always and your government when it deserves it"-Mark Twain

        by fool me once umm on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 03:52:12 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Yeah...and it takes even more time (none)
        to waterboard somebody--actually, they were ahead of schedule in terms of handling the whole thing!

        ...the White House will be adorned by a downright moron...H.L. Mencken

        by bibble on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 04:15:45 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Contempt (4.00)
        You know I'd like to think they were telling the truth about making sure the dood was getting medical care, etc.

        However, they should have gone out of their way to avoid even the appearance of trying to cover anything up. Otherwise you get people who are not sheeple thinking the conversation went down like this:

        Cheney: "I accidentally shot someone on my hunting trip, junior. "

        George W Bush: "Well, just have your guys disappear the body."

        Cheney: "Not that simple, junior. He was white."

        George W Bush: "Well, pay them a little extra."

        Cheney: "There were witnesses as well."

        George W Bush: "Well, it's your call, boss. Let me know if you need any help."

        That's kind of what I'm thinking was going on. They should have been out front with Cheney admitting what he was done, it was an accident, the guy was in ICU.

        But again, words like "transparency", "honesty", "full disclosure" will never be used in a sentence with these punks.

        "I will not trust Bush with the life of one Iraqi."

        by Tamifah on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 05:08:37 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  failure to render aid - is that only (none)
          for car wrecks?

          I give Cheney the 30 minutes it takes for the airlift.  He probably does not have any blame for being indisposed until the paramedics leave.  However, the Secret Service heavies are standing there with all the technology in the world strapped to their chests.  What the hell were those guys doing?  I pay their salaries too.  Who did they call?  Who is the county Sheriff?  Where is the police report?  There is either an investigation or a coverup going on, Period.  

          Something tells me Jack Daniels was a guest as well, or a Mr. Glenfiddich.

          "An inglorious peace is better than a dishonest war." - Mark Twain

          by skwimmer on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 06:05:34 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Katharine Anderson, Bush Pioneer (none)
        Before she was a Bush Pioneer, she was appointed to the Texas Parks and Wildlife commission by George W. Bush. She's also on the board of several hunting-oriented groups - all this to say, she's not just some hapless landowner who happened to invite the VP over.

        http://www.whitehouseforsale.org/...
        http://www.whitehouseforsale.org/...

  •  drinking or not... (4.00)
    ...it's pretty clear that they were trying to decide how much of this incident they would reveal, which begs the question, what are they hiding now? I'm guessing that, barring a secret service leak (they were the only non-hunters, there, right?) we'll never get the full story.
    •  leaks (none)
      Exactly right. No one who would go hunting with Dick Cheney would flip on him not even the guy he shot. And the woman who called the police was reading from a Karl Rove script and was calling who he told her to call. It all looks bad, but there is no way to make it look good. It is likely worse than it appears to public in terms of injury level and it is pretty hard to imagine how it could happen if either of them were sober. Both are experienced hunters.

      The only surprise is that they didn't find someone to frame. It does show that there are limits, which is encouraging. The only other limit I have noticed to their willingness to lie and cheat was that they did not plant WMDs in Iraq. I have always been surprised about that. It just seems inconsistent.

      •  There was actually another diary today (none)
        that says the CIA intercepted some VX nerve gas being shipped to Iraq for just that reason.  I'll give you one guess as to the name of the covert CIA agent who was working on it and the name of the front company she worked for.

        A good plan today is better than a perfect plan tomorrow.

        by Webster on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 05:08:33 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  I watched Paula Zahn and they had the first hint (none)
        of a Fall Guy.  

        The slick young WHITE reporter covering the story went directly to the scene.  And he went out in the conditions Cheney was in.

        He explained how easy it was for an accident to occur.  The sun was low.  The brush was high.  It coulda happened to anyone.  Even experienced hunters.  

        And it all comes down to how good your guide is.  Yep, the guide did it.  He failed to do his duty to keep all of the party informed of all of the others whereabouts.

        It was the first hint I've heard of someone other than Cheney being even mildly responsible.

        And if this guy is ready to take the fall I'm sure there is a sizable check in the mail.

        If we're dumb. Then God is dumb. And maybe a little ugly on the side.

        by Ghost of Frank Zappa on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 05:50:34 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Why go to all that trouble? (none)
          They can just round up some black man at random, fake some evidence, and toss him on death row. Twenty years later, "60 Minutes" can do a story on him and get him out. No harm, no foul.

          We are talking about Texas, after all.

          "Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!" -- Sir Thomas More, in A Man For All Seasons, by Robert Bolt

          by Shiborg on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 07:24:51 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  the other guy (none)
          the blame has already been placed on the other guy... he didn't warn me he was coming up behind me... who the hell shoots behind them?
        •  to paraphrase "Caddyshack".... (4.00)
          Judge Smeals (Ted Knight) throws a putter after missing a shot, nearly killing a woman eating lunch nearby:

          Caddy " I'm sorry judge, I noticed your grips were worn, I should have put some stickum on there, it's all my fault"

          Judge "That's right!!! Be more careful next time!!!"

          ...ten bucks says the guide gets a political appointment (or hired by Haliburton) within a year!

          "The Edge ... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who really know where it is are the ones who have gone over" HST

          by raygungnu on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 07:41:18 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  The Secret Service (none)
      was forced to testify against Bill Clinton during the whole Monica Mess. Thanks to the Right-wings nuts they have no grounds to stand on as far as the Secret Service testifying in a legal case.

      GWB will pry my 20 and 18 year old sons from my cold dead fingers.

      by Momagainstthedraft on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 05:32:39 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Why I love Ron Reagan (4.00)
    He not only said it once but got it out twice.
    When there is an accident especially when guns are involved the first question the police ask is was there any drinking. Thank god for Ron, he was able to say what no one else will dare say. Did you notice how tweety tried to cover for the veep and point out that Ron had mentioned this twice?
    Someone with balls!

    "I'm not going to be your monkey"

    by gabie on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 02:54:15 PM PST

    •  I would love it Ronny Reagan, Jr. ran for (4.00)
      President and won.  It would piss so many neocons off!!
    •  I have my doubts if Tweety will ask Ron back (none)
      Now that Ron has brought up something as unthinkable as the mere possibility that alcohol was involved.   Afterall, that might mean that Cheney committed a crime.

      Look up, not down, Look out, not in, Look forward, not back, And lend a hand. -Edward Everett Hale

      by deadinthewater on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 03:41:05 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Which makes how many crimes now? (4.00)

        "Patriotism is loving your country always and your government when it deserves it"-Mark Twain

        by fool me once umm on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 03:53:24 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Au contraire (none)
        Ronald Reagan holds the cards in this relationship.  

        The cable guys need him more than he needs them.  The advantage to a bright, articulate, considerate and committed individual having the name Ronald Reagan, Number One Son to the Godfather, is inestimable.

        I believe some day he will be involved in electoral politics and at a high level.  

        He learned politics from the master.  He doesn't share the master's views, but ... fuck em.  

        Love me, love my son.

        If we're dumb. Then God is dumb. And maybe a little ugly on the side.

        by Ghost of Frank Zappa on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 05:57:13 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  He may also have a contract to fulfill (none)
        Ron used to have a show on MSGOP that ran live twice a day, Coast to Coast. It was cancelled at the end of last year, but he said at that time that he was still under contract to the company and would be back on their other cable news shows from time to time. He was on the morning news roundup block that Allison Stewart sometimes anchors (I forget what they call it these days) as the resident commenter on some relevant topic. It has been a while since I've seen him, but I've stopped watching them EXCEPT for that news block. Sorry I missed him, but I can't stomach Matthews anymore.
      •  If Cheney 'looks' like he committed a crime... (none)
        It just may be The Out W needs to get rid of Darth's fat ass once and for all so he could cover his own ass and cut his losses.

        Frankly, the nation is ticked not only at W but at Darth and his Halliburton getting first dibs at anything coming his/its way.  Iraq.  New Orleans.  Iran's probably next.  

        If the nation is disgusted at W, it LOATHES Cheney vociferously.  Getting rid of Cheney plays into Bush's hand over this issue and makes him appear squeeky clean and effective, as if Cheney was the one staying his hand from doing good and well in the first fucking place.

        Yall better hold your breath and HOPE that Cheney stays as Veep long enough so get an indictment from Fitz.  Because if he bites it, Bush gets a new lease on life that we don't need.  AND a heir apparent that might rally the Repubs.

        An untypical Negro...since 1954.

        by blksista on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 07:44:28 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Unitary Vice Presidency (none)
    I'm sure you've heard of it. I know Scalia has.
  •  Buchanan (4.00)
    made one great point, he said something to the effect of if secret service wouldn't let Cheney talk to the locals someone told them not to let him talk to them.  Be nice know why and who made that decision.

    Who Burns for the Perfection of Paper - Martin Espada

    by demkat620 on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 02:56:47 PM PST

  •  What is scary is that a large chunk... (4.00)
    ...of the Republican base couldn't imagine going hunting without drinking alcohol.  

    My grandfather was a lifelong hunter, and his hunting trips with his buddies were an excuse to get away from their wives and drink.  Can you imagine the depth of your need for mood-altering behavior if you were married to Lynn Cheney?

    That sounded a little more "Brokeback Mountain" than I intended it too...

    "It's not selling out if you don't get paid, okay? We're not whores. When you do it for free, that's just slutty." -Wonkette -6.38/ -4.21

    by wonkydonkey on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 02:57:02 PM PST

    •  Yep, know several people who (none)
      drink & hunt.  Never thought that was particularly smart.
    •  Doesn't look (none)
      very "Brokeback" when the 2 ladies were also "hunting" with Dick and his shooting victim

      what's up with that?

    •  never understood (4.00)
      This is the part about hunting that I find so objectionable... not the killing of living things for food or for sport or any of that, it's that for a lot of people (mostly men, but some women) it's some sort of beer drinking, testosterone fest, where they all get together and hang out in the woods and "be manly" together drinkin' beer and killin' shit.  It's weird and anti-social and I just don't get it.  

      Not to mention that these are the same people who think that guys like me who live in the city and who go to plays, hang out at art museums and read at coffee shops, etc. are all a "bucha homos" or (insert other derogatory term for gay person here).  I don't get the logic here... hang out in the woods with a bunch of drunk dudes vs. hang out at places where there are lots of cute girls... doesn't make any sense to me.  

      •  To cause (none)
        the ripping of flesh and crushing of bone. To produce the suddenly horrifying writhing agony of a conscious, family valued living being, perhaps only after extendedly terrorizing the same with the yelping threat of canine fangs. What sport. Far more satisfying than the mere yanking of fish from the lake by their lips. Every dead hunter is a victory for the deer, as is a dead snowmobiler victory for the trees.
        •  Maybe you should remove yourself (none)
            from the planet, as everything you do affects "innocent" beings. Your house was built upon former animal homes, your car drives over roads which were built on the deaths of untold millions of poor little fuzzy animals. Your cotton clothing came from farms where millions of of animals are chopped up yearly in combines. So the only real thing you can do to actually have a so-called positive impact on those poor little fishes, and animals, and not participate in the rendering and tearing of bones and flesh is to remove yourself from the planet. Good luck with that.

           Or you can live in the reality based world.

          •  Astoundingly, (none)
            I've heard that one before.

            We have a long way to go. but opposing direct, immediate, first hand violence toward animals for mere amusement seems like a reasonable first step toward a more gentle spirituality.

            Just my opinion.

            •  Agreed, Live Simply (none)
              So that others may live.

              We can each reduce our footprints and our demands.  It's far easier than increasing production.

              Hunting is an expression of freedom to my native cousins.  It is a deep cultural memory and a symbol of survival for the Ojibway.  They eat their prey for sustenance.  How hunting has real meaning in the hands of a pacemakered former Halliburton exec I don't know.

              "An inglorious peace is better than a dishonest war." - Mark Twain

              by skwimmer on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 06:37:12 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  What hogwash (none)
            While you're at it, the early U.S. economy was built on slavery. Does that make it right?

            Meat eaters get so petulant if anyone points out even a smidgen of the reality of their nasty, nasty habit.

            "Animals are my friends--and I don't eat my friends." (G.B. Shaw) Click to read the 'Union'

            by Hudson on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 06:33:09 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  used to be... (none)
          I used to be a pretty serious vegetarian for about 8 years and during that time, I think I would have agreed with your statement.  However, I was one of those "bad vegetarians" that was really into eating mac and cheese and pasta and cereal for every meal and I gained a whole bunch of weight.  I stopped being a veg about a year ago and am pretty much an omnivor now.  I've been doing a high protein diet lately and have lost about 20 pounds because of it.  I feel great.  I bought a Foreman Grill and use that sucker a few times a week.  

          I was a veg for all of the usual reasons... thought it generally odd that we eat some animals and not others, thought it odd we eat other animals period, believe it is crule to eat animals, belief that animals may in fact have a soul or something resembling it (if humans do that is), beieved it better for the environment, etc etc.  I still do believe all of these things.  However, I am no longer a veg and the reason is this... I think I was not eating properly as a vegetarian.  My health was suffering and I was unhappy and, call me crazy, but I'm not going to die at the age of 50 because I'm carrying around too much weight. My father was diagnosed with type II diabetes and high blood preasure and he and I basically look and are built exactly alike.  That is what I had in my future the way I was going.  I'm happier now and I feel so much better.

          My whole point in all of this is that while I thinnk aspects of hunting are barbaric and strange, I do not believe that eating meat or hunting in general is bad.  Human beings have survived for hundreds of thousands of years eating meat and hunting and gathering.  What they have not done for longer than the past hundred years is sit at a desk and read books and dink around on a computer all day.  We are built to hunt.  Hunting is part of who we are.  I think there is something spiritual about hunting another animal and killing it.  In some ways, it is a very beautiful thing (kind of like when my brother used to be on the wrestling team... kind of strange and barbaric in a way, but in another way I thought it was beautiful to see two people locked in combat like that).  At any rate, I don't think that hunting is strange or wrong and I don't fault those who hunt for food for engagiing in that activity.  I just think a lot of the stuff that goes along with hunting, such as drinkin' beer, is weird.

      •  Well... (none)
        and don't misunderstand me, cause I live in NYC, read in coffee shops, dig museums and feel the same way about going where the cute women are... BUT, you gotta understand the same need to go into the woods and kind of shed all that.

        Actually, for me it's mostly an abstraction, cause as much as I liked camping as a kid, I never, ever get outta NYC. But my dad (despite his repetitive demands that I see Brokeback) is sort of a quintessential man, and he and his buddies have been camping for decades.

        Just explaining the logic of the retreat to the woods deal.

        As far as hunting, it bums me out, but if you're one of those eat everything and use the sinews to string a guitar dudes, I'm ok with it.

        The right is killing America

        by grushka on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 04:42:48 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Well, now you've gotten to the ultimate question (none)
      and that is: who is more sexually repulsive..... Lynn or Dick?

      If we're dumb. Then God is dumb. And maybe a little ugly on the side.

      by Ghost of Frank Zappa on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 06:01:19 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Yeah, but his buds also included a coupla women... (none)
      Brokeback Mountain ain't got nothing to do with this one.

      An untypical Negro...since 1954.

      by blksista on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 07:46:14 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Ask the Secret Service if the Veep was tanked. (none)
    I really don't think all of those straight arrows would cover for dead-eye-darth.
    •  Secret Service (4.00)
      I'm sure anyone who has not been 'vetted' to absolutely, positively cover for anything the administration has done and wants to do was 'replaced' about five years ago.

      I'm thinking Cheney's secret service detail knows they're first loyalty is to be to Cheney.

      Does the devil wear a suit and tie, Or does he work at the Dairy Queen- Martin Sexton

      by strengthof10kmen on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 03:26:47 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Secret Service? (none)
      Have you been around any of them since Bush took office?  They may as well be his secret police and will be under the new Patriot Act.  These people are so far up W's butt they all have brown hair, brown eyes, and brown skin.

      Pennacchio for Pennsylvania

      by PAprogressive on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 03:37:30 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  asdf (none)
      i don't really know shit about the secret service, but my guess is that there are regulations or laws in place that permit them to refuse to be interviewed for an investigation into a protectee.  probably similar to doctor/patient, lawyer/client, priest/confessee relationships.  so long as there isn't a liklihood of continued criminal activity, the public interest is probably better served by them generally keeping their mouths shut.

      even if htere aren't, i'm sure the SS would stonewall and force the sheriff to get a court order which would be appealed and appealed and appealed.  eventually the county sheriff, who probably wants it to go away just as much as the white house does, would cite mounting costs that aren't justified by a potential misdemeanor investigation.

    •  Have to agree with that (none)
      .. unlike the jaded viewpoints I see posted in response, I'd like to think that the first responsibility of the Secret Service is to the law.

      It's not as if testifying that Cheney was intoxicated or disabled would put the VP at physical risk of injury {quite the opposite, as he could have shot himself in the foot if he were inebriated}.

      "Rovus Vulgaris Americanus" nasty, soon-to-be-indicted co-conspirator -7.63, -9.59

      by shpilk on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 04:09:52 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Maybe (none)
        Maybe it is, but if so, why didn't Jenna Bush's Secret Service agents keep the waiters from serving her alchohol at Chuy's in Austin, TX, that time she got busted for having a fake ID? There were reports in the local media (I lived there back then) that instead of stopping it and preventing the lawbreaking before it happened, the SS guys let Jenna get served. Then, when it was pointed out to the manager just who she was (and everyone in Austin knew she was still under age at that point), the manager called the cops who (I believe) told the press. If I recall correctly, the agents said they had no responsibility to stop the serving or report it once it happened.
  •  I can only guess, BUT (4.00)
    I would suspect that it is unlikely that Cheney had been drinking.  He has enough health problems that it is likely his meds should not be mixed with alcohol.  
    •  True but.... (none)
      ...the meds themselves could be the problem. Some heart meds you are cautioned not to operate heavy machinery. Probably not a good idea to be shooting guns either.
    •  Right (4.00)
      And he also probably doesn't eat at Bob's Big Boy because they mix in an ounce or two of the french fry grease when he orders a Strawberry shake. I would imagine he has entirely given up consuming cheese and mayonaisse as well.
      •  Are you (none)
        accusing the fine folks at Bob's Big Boy of attempting to move the veep to a higher(or Lower)plane of existence?  Or do they always put french fry grease in all their milkshakes?

        Who Burns for the Perfection of Paper - Martin Espada

        by demkat620 on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 03:26:35 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  My theory is (4.00)
      that Cheney, who seems a bit off balance physically recently, using a cane etc, got out of the car to shoot, got set up, then lost his balance and partially fell or lurched thus causing the shotgun to go off accidently. Since  he has been billed as such a rabid and excellent gunsman and hunter it was decided that covering up the perhaps embarrasing truth that Dick Cheney is too feeble to function and should not be allowed to have a gun, shotgun or rifle. This seemed to be the wisest course. There is  no way on God's green earth that Cheney turned around to shoot the quail and shot a man unless he was either drunk, taking too many heart drugs, or siipped and almost fell.

      Otherwise why wait 24 hours to come clean. Makes no sense. Actually none ot it makes sense. And who were the others along on this "hunting trip" and why has the man who was shot stated he would not make a statement out of reverance to the VP?

      And why did Ms Armstrong, owner of the ranch make the first public statement instead of the VP office. It was Cheney's staff who should have reported this immediately.

      Very strange.

      •  asdf (none)
        along those lines, another theory i read by a hunter was that cheney just wasn't practicing proper gun safety by keeping the safety engaged and his finger off the trigger ("i'm a good enough hunter that i don't need to do that!") and stumbled or whatever and fired the shotgun.

        then again, i can also imagine even an experienced hunter following a bird too long, turning around and accidentally shooting a companion.  imagine you're out on one of those canned hunts killing hundreds and hundreds of birds.  firing guns and killing shit is probably a pretty big addreneline rush.  after awhile, you're all amped up and focused on killing a bunch more birds and just forget what you're doing.

        lastly, i'd say some one like cheney has not, for a very very long time, had to focus much on the wants and needs of other people.  imagine how weird that must be.  i can imagine that a guy like him really thinks he's the center of the universe and gun safety doesn't really apply to him as it's everyone else's responsibility to get the fuck out of HIS way.

      •  Answer to last question: (none)
        Attempt to cover-up the entire incident, evaluate whether a cover-up would be posible, conduct focus groups to determine the most believable lie, fix everyone's story to match whatever the official lie was going to be, coerce and/or bribe witnesses, local law enforcement officials, doctors, etc., as needed, and otherwise plan out damage control measures.
    •  Not sure about this (none)
      Having an alchoholic relative who takes medicine that shouldn't be mixed with alchohol I can tell you that just because it shouldn't doesn't mean it isn't.

      I have no idea if Cheney was drinking or not, I think the medicine thing doesn't really help determine things one way or another unless the medicine mixed with alchohol would kill or incapacitate him which most don't in the short term().

      () I am not a doctor, I am not telling you it's ok to drink and take medicine of any form.  Best advice I can offer is not to be a dumbass about it.  Being a dumbass might include getting high on meds and alchohol and shooting someone amongst other things.

      •  They do it all the time (none)
        My 46 yr. old winger neighbor w/ 3 heart attacks takes 7 pain & related pills / day, 100 lbs. overweight is a chain smoker & alcoholic to boot is a good case in point.

        Rich people make money using other peoples money... Republicans start wars using other peoples children.

        by fedupinca on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 05:12:24 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Ya know, that don't mean shyt (none)
      ...even with a condition like that, other people have been known to get tight, smoke dope and do dope (coke) in a kind of medical Russian roulette.

      I wouldn't put it past the guy.

      An untypical Negro...since 1954.

      by blksista on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 07:48:05 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  New Meme (none)
    More of the same from an administration and a party that can't shoot straight.
    •  We ought to bring this up at every opportunity (none)
      For example, if any Republican is disciplined for straying off the reservation, we can say that he has been sent "hunting with Cheney."

      "Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!" -- Sir Thomas More, in A Man For All Seasons, by Robert Bolt

      by Shiborg on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 07:51:37 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  asdf (none)
    If I'm a local DA, I think I'd have a few questions as to why there was not an immediate interrogation...

    If you're the local DEM DA, then yes, you'd have questions.

    Really, this should be investigated.  If Cheney had been driving and hit someone, would that not be investigated?

    "...no weapons of mass destruction over there, but Coretta knew and we know that there are weapons of misdirection right down here." -Rev. Lowery

    by Cecile on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 03:05:23 PM PST

  •  lmao (none)
    to show how way out there they are:

    When conservatives were polled about Democrats, Sen. Hillary Clinton (D.-N.Y.) maintained her status as the frontrunner among CPAC attendees. With 62% of the vote, Clinton was the clear leader in the straw poll.

    Former Virginia Gov. Mark Warner was the only other Democrat to hit double digits. Warner is considered the moderate alternative to the liberal Clinton.

    Oh yeah, Clinton is just way liberal. You know how she wants to just pull out now and opposes the PATRIOT ACT and all....oh wait...

  •  5:30 is a bit late to be hunting (none)
    I'd imagine it was getting dark at that time in the evening.
  •  If Cheney was in fact drinking (none)
    You know what he was drinking. Wild Turkey, of course.
  •  Or Famous Grouse scotch... (none)
  •  Maybe His Pacemaker Made His Finger Twitch (none)
    Which would have to be covered up long enough for the Frist family and supporters to sell off some stock.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy....--ML King, "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 03:30:51 PM PST

  •  O+ or B- ??? (4.00)
    Why would he suck the old guy?  I thought he preferred baby blood.

    Welcome to the ownership society. If you have not been assigned an owner, please report to Iran for duty.

    by jm1963 on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 03:32:20 PM PST

  •  Shoot first, forbid questions later (n/t) (4.00)

    Are we still routinely torturing helpless prisoners, and if so, does it feel right that we as American citizens are not outraged by the practice? -Al Gore

    by soyinkafan on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 03:37:54 PM PST

  •  basic rules (4.00)
    Hunter safety is something I learned growing up in Montana. Rule #1, even before assuming that every gun is a loaded gun and should be treated that way, is that you can drink or you can handle guns--but not both.  After "every gun is loaded," comes: "the shooter ALWAYS takes responsibility for the shot." In other words, know your target, know what is behind and beyond your target, know where your hunting party is.  We expect our young hunters (who are pre-teens) to understand and accept those rules of safe gun-handling.  By now, Cheney should be able to quote such rules by heart, to say nothing of practicing them faithfully.

    I don't care if the guy who got shot was dressed up to look like a Texas quail.  Cheney shot him. Cheney should hang up his guns.  No hunter worth the name would hunt with him.

    I don't know about the drinking angle of this, but I do know that Cheney is getting on in years and, while I know some safe and sane hunters Cheney's age and older, someone ought to check that his eyesight and judgement isn't impaired due to age.  We don't always have to jump to the conclusion that alcohol was involved, as nasty as that would be. It could be that his vision, hearing or reflexes are not as good as they used to be.

    It is wonderful that the guy did't die.  In this case, Cheney is the one who dodged a bullet.  

    The person who defines reality wins.

    by Taylorbad on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 03:42:02 PM PST

    •  Right on (none)
      Great points....
    •  asdf (4.00)
      i mentioned in a comment above, i can picture cheney believing that normal rules and social norms don't apply to him.  how long has it been since he's had to care what other people thought, needed or wanted.  he's the center of every situation he's been in for decades.  in that case, his worldview could be that it's everyone else's responsibility to get the fuck out of HIS way, not the other way around.  and that would explain the excuse that it's the other guy's fault.
    •  I'll agree and add a question ... (none)
      What kind of police report do we have here? First accounts have the shooting victim coming up BEHIND the VP. Today's Three Blind Mice have a re-creation that puts the shooting victim in front of the VP, with the VP AND the Secret Service detail assigned to protect him losing track of a person that is part of the hunting party, and walked out in front of their very eyes! That would be considered contradictory accounts. This would not even be a close question on the detective-grade exam. (Guess it's time for Medicare Part B eyeglass prescriptions for the Secret Service; or re-assignment to FEMA and New Orleans, where good eyesight is not required.) And factually, reporters seem not to have found out the name of the manufacturer of the over-and-under style shotgun. Maybe the manufacturer is allowed 24 hours before reporting their name to the police, too.
        Suggestion: secret service should start keeping a log of the Global Positioning System co-ordinates for the vp's ass and his elbow. This way on the police report, they can check if the vp was firing in the direction of his ass (-180 degrees) or his elbow (+90 or +180 degrees). It's also nice that the vp gets the 24-hour delayed reporting program for police reports.
        By the way, isn't it nice to have a hospitalization plan that allows you to stay in intensive care for 5 days so far for a minor wound for a "common accident"? It's a good bet that the med bill is well over $100,000 by now.
      And, for the record, shooting a Texan in Texas, technically, is messing with Texas.
  •  Was this on hardball or highball? n/t (none)
  •  Surprised from behind (none)
    I also wondered whether Cheyney had been drinking. If the guy who was shot surprised Cheney when he came up from behind, that would mean Cheyney had to turn around and shoot.
  •  "Cheney's Chappaquidick"? (none)
  •  Editor and Publisher notes an interesting fact (4.00)
    There was an 18 hour delay in reporting the incident. Why wait 18 hours unless there was something about the mishap that they didn't want people to know about.

    I mean, it doesn't take 18 hours to spin a story like this. The only explanation they came up with was that it was a freak accident. Maybe they had to wait 18 hours to deal with a factor currently unknown to us (such as alcohol).

  •  I don't know if my experience is typical (none)
    but everytime I have been hunting in Texas, a half-rack was considered required equipment.

    I carried water for the elephant; Back and forth to the well I went; My arms got sore and my back got bent; But I couldn't fill up that elephant

    by Sylvester McMonkey Mcbean on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 04:08:28 PM PST

  •  Just a coupla fun-lovin' couples... (none)
    Katherine Armstrong, Dick Cheney, Pamela Willeford and Harry Whittington ... just a couple of fun-lovin' couples out with the cooler in the back of the truck, shootin' an having a good ol' time...til something bad happens.  Kinda 'trailer park chic' of our Veep, huh?
  •  Can I just (none)
    say sending Alan Simpson out to try to humanize Cheney is a really dumb idea.  Trying to describe Cheney as a humane, and caring hunter is not a good idea.  They've just gotta find a way to defend everything.  Simpson blamed Whittington on Twwety's show.  They've just gotta learn to stop sometimes.  Simpson sounds a little desperate to protect his friend.

    Who Burns for the Perfection of Paper - Martin Espada

    by demkat620 on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 04:10:45 PM PST

    •  Simpson (3.66)
      "The fault lies with Whittington, not Cheney"! Whittington came up behind Cheney and didn't tell him he was back so it was okay for Cheney to turn around and shoot the MF.
      Geeze, how much do you have to get paid to protect these guys?

      "I'm not going to be your monkey"

      by gabie on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 04:20:50 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Simpson's been reduced to a pathetic old apologist (none)
      It's the only way he can get any attention these days.  He really has become a nothing.
  •  How many drinks? (none)
    And where were the spouses?
  •  Who Killed Vince Foster? (4.00)
    Now we know - Dick Cheney.

    Solar is Civil Defense

    by gmoke on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 04:16:23 PM PST

  •  Breaking--more bad news for Cheney (4.00)
    New report just posted here at the Dallas Morning News stating that Cheney and his hunting partner did not have the  7 dollar hunting stamps (as required by law).  The Texas Parks and Wildlife agency issued a statement saying it would let Cheney off with a warning.
  •  Blame the victim. (none)
    That is what they do best.  I know of 2 quail hunting accidents, and both involved young teens.
  •  We need to freep this poll on MSNBC (none)
    on whether the delay was acceptable or not.

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/...

    "The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives and the dreams shall never die." - Senator Edward M. Kennedy

    by Phil S 33 on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 04:27:57 PM PST

  •  Is there really even a question? (4.00)
    The White House assembles coherent damage control on this sort of thing within minutes, not hours.  The only possible reason for an 18-hour delay is that the VP couldn't undergo a physical.

    He was definitely drunk.  That's the only explanation that makes sense.  The one thing the WH is not AWOL on is political damage control and spin-- that's their core competency, and it would be their only one if it weren't for bribery.

  •  What scares me? (4.00)
    If Dick Cheney had actually killed this man... there is a real posibility that we might never have known what really happened around it except as a tragic 'hunting accident'.

    They were all big time wingnuts out there.

    Cheney shot the grand old man of the Texas Republican party.

    If he had killed the man, one of the others could very well have taken the blame.

    Or they could have just covered it up as a passing hunting party shot the man, got scared, and ran off.

    Nobody saw a thing because "we were someplace else in the woods... Texas Slim Slappy went back to the camp to get another pack of shells that he had forgotten.... suddenly, we heard a loud shotgun blast and a holler... and when we found him, Slappy was dead", ---and its just awful what happened.

    There might be wild conspiracy theories for years, but nobody could ever prove anything.

    The Washington Post takes the gold for most dishonorable partisan hack as an ombusperson

    by LeftHandedMan on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 04:55:18 PM PST

  •  It takes time to spin (4.00)
    I think that there is a good chance that it really was just an accident.  The reason it took so long to release any information was that the first instinct of this administration is to spin the events to make Cheney look as good as possible.  It never even occured to them to just hold a press conference to explain what really happened.  

    The reason things seems kind of fishy, is because news of the shooting leaked out before they had a chance to finish coming up with their story, and they were forced to wing it.  They are lying about it because it never occured to them not to.  They are so use to lying about everything, they just do it by habit now.

  •  haha (none)
    On Countdown they had this caption

    Duck! Cheney!  

    -6.13, -4.46 * 2267 *

    by BDA in VA on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 05:23:31 PM PST

  •  Since This Is A Hardball Diary (4.00)
    Did anyone see the segment Chris had on interviewing Veterans running for Congress?  He had on 2 Repub. Veteran candidates and only 1 Dem. Veteran candidate.  WTF!  What the hell kind of ratio is that when we Dems. have around 56 Veteran candidates running for Congress and the Repubs. have barely 3 or 4.  Sure gives the public the wrong impression of the situation, don't it.  But Chris is good at misleading the public as we all know.
    •  My thought exactly... (none)
      Mathews did not even mention the relative numbers. The story made it seem like twice as many were Republicans.

      In my opinion this is a huge story! 63 veterams (and counting) come back and run for Congress because they want to change the direction of this country.

      Here are 40 or so of the Fighting Dems at a rally on Capital Hill last Wednesday:

      Here is the Fighting Dems website:

      http://www.fighting-dems.com/

      Here they are:

      Fighting Dems Muster Roll
       Name Rank/Branch  Duty
      1. PAINE, Herb 2LT, USA AZ-03
      2. LATAS, Jeff LtCol, USAF AZ-08
      3. FALZETT, Bill USAF CA-02
      4. BROWN, Charles D.  LtCol, USAF  CA-04
      5. FILSON, Steve USA CA-11
      6. BRANDT, Jim  Capt, USMC  CA-46
      7. OTTER, Karen Marie SGT, USA CA-52
      8. RINALDI, John Officer, USNR CA-52
      9. CASADY, Eric Officer, USN CA-52
      10. FAWCETT, Jay  LtCol, USAF CO-05
      11. WINTER, Bill USMC; USN CO-06
      12. DUCKWORTH, Tammy MAJ, ARNG  IL-06
      13. LAESCH, John USN IL-14
      14. AUMAN, Dick  IL-16
      15. CORNSTUBLE, Rick  USN IN-04
      16. STREIT, Eric USN KY-01
      17. WEAVER, Mike COL, USA KY-02
      18. HORNE, Andrew LtCol, USAF KY-03
      19. LUCAS, Ken USN KY-04
      20. STEPP, Kenneth USN 1968-75 KY-05
      21. BALDWIN, Mishonda  CPT, USA  MD-03
      22. DUCK, Andrew  CAPT, USA  MD-06
      23. STRACK, Fred USN MI-07
      24. MARCINKOWSKY, Jim  USN MI-09
      25. WALZ, Tim CSM, ARNG MN-01
      26. BURGHARD, Duane USN MO-09
      27. WILKES, Clint  USA MT-Senate
      28. DUNN, Tim  1stLt, USMC NC-08
      29. DUFFY, Pete  COL, ARNG NH-01
      30. SULLIVAN, Peter Officer, USA NH-01
      31. SEXTON, Rich LCDR, USN, USNR NJ-03
      32. JOHNSON, Bob  NY-23
      33. MASSA, Eric CDR, USN NY-29
      34. HACKETT, Paul Maj, USMC OH-Senate
      35. FIERST, David J. CAPT, USA OH-03
      36. SHIRA, Jack USAF OH-13
      37. WOLFE, John L. USA OH-13
      38. SULZER, Joe USA OH-18
      39. SMITH, Bert LTC, USAR OK-05
      40. SESTAK, Joe VADM, USN PA-07
      41. MURPHY, Patrick CAPT, USA PA-08
      42. CARNEY, Chris  LCDR, USNR  PA-10
      43. KOVACH, Tom USN PA-18
      44. AVILLO, Phil  Capt, USMC  PA-19
      45. SHEERER, Carl Capt, USMC RI-Senate
      46. BALLENGER, Lee  USN SC-03
      47. STULCE, Terry CAPT, USA TN-03
      48. GREER, Jeff SSGT, USA TN-07
      49. DODD, Dan  LtCol, USAF  TX-03
      50. THOMPSON, Charlie CDR, USN TX-05
      51. HARRIS, David MAJ, USAR TX-06
      52. MURFF, David USA TX-07
      53. ANKRUM, Ted  CAPT, USN  TX-10
      54. COURAGE, John  USAF  TX-21
      55. BOLANOS, Rick USA TX-23
      56. EWERT, Bern SGT, USA VA-05
      57. WEED, Al CSM, USA VA-05
      58. Webb, James H., Jr. USMC VA - Senate

      AND THERE ARE ONLY A SMALL HANDFUL OF REPUBLICANS

      It is absolutely ridiculous that Mathews would present this issue as an equally Democrat/Republican matter, and completely unconsionable that he would have more Republicans than Democrats on his program.

      I hope MSNBC is called out on this disgusting bit of misleading propaganda, and forced to cover the story of the Fighting Dems.

    •  That's the going rate (none)
        the one the market will bear. I think it's been studied a bit and 2 to 1 is about what goes on pretty much all of the networks.
  •  Who knows about (none)
    these bird pellets? How serious is this injury actually? Are we talking a few scrapes on the face? A lot of bleeding? Was there the possibility for permanent damage?
    •  bird shot (none)
      bird shot doesn't have a very long effective range. It would be mostly a minor injury unless one of the pellets hit the eye, or possibly the ear canal, maybe caught some facial nerves. my uncle one caught some shot in similar circumstances. typically you get caught from the side, and the jacket and the hat absorb most of the shot. of course regarding someone of advanced years, who might be taking blood thinners, the risk is greater, and the reaction to something like this is enough to send you into cardiac arrest. a more complete medical record will tell us, how close the shooter was, and how full on he caught the victim.

      "...in the future everything is chrome. Sponge Bob Square Pants

      by agent double o soul on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 07:57:23 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Are Dick and Karl (none)
    getting along?  This seems like the kind of blunder that was happening around Katrina, when Rove was preocupied with his legal affairs and everything was going to hell in a hand basket with Bush all by himself.

    I would think, unless Rove is an enemy with Cheney, he would be putting in a call to Rove before ever getting medical help for his victim.

  •  Good news! (4.00)
    Turns out the guy who got shot is covered by Medicare Part D (the new prescription drug benefit).  So he should be just fine...

    Anybody seen my owl?

    by Minerva on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 06:41:36 PM PST

  •  I'm no Hunter, but (none)
    it was early evening on a saturday. And alcohol is part and parcel in some "outdoorsman" and "hunting" circles, no?

    I haven't read the thread yety, but does anyone have data/statistics on the percentage of hunting accidents where alcohol is involved?

  •  Preemptive Strike (none)
    Maybe Cheney felt he was in danger and decided he needed to take some action.
  •  $18,000 shotgun doesn't shoot straight (4.00)
    I wanted to see what Cheney's WMD looked like.  You would expect that an $18k shotgun would keep you from hitting a guy in an orange hat and jacket because quail don't wear them.
  •  He was sober (none)
    Before he was drunk...
  •  Just wait; (none)
    We'll get the 'shots were fired from the grassy knoll' story soon.
  •  Cheney Pokes Fun at Kerry Hunting Trip (4.00)
    Anybody else remember when Cheney made fun of Kerry in the middle of the campaign for going hunting in a new camouflage jacket. It was kind of galling (partly because Kerry should have known better in the first place) but mainly because Cheney is such a friggin impostor himself.

    And now this.

    His jacket might have been new, but at least Kerry didn't shoot his hunting partner in the face.

  •  And let's not forget this about Cheney: (none)
    In 1965 he shot a man in Reno, just to watch him die.

    "W" stands for War Criminal

    by jazzmaniac on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 09:02:51 PM PST

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