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The New York Times today published an article on the topic of outsourcing. Steve Lohr, the author of the article, contends that outsourcing is climbing the skills ladder. What he means by this is that the jobs that were originally outsourced were simple assembly tasks. After these jobs were outsourced, companies began to outsource higher skill jobs, such as computer programmers. Now, outsourcing has progressed up the skills ladder to include such highly skilled jobs as engineers and scientists.


According to the article, "A new study that will be presented today to the National Academies, the nation's leading advisory groups on science and technology, suggests that more and more research work at corporations will be sent to fast-growing economies with strong education systems, like China and India." The common perception will be that these jobs are leaving because of cheap labor and tax incentives. However, "the report found that multinational corporations were global shoppers for talent. The companies want to nurture close links with leading universities in emerging markets to work with professors and to hire promising graduates." The real reason then we are losing these jobs is because of education. Companies want to move to places where there is a link between their companies and leading research universities.

Marie Thursby, an author of the study and a professor at Georgia Tech's college of management, says "you have to have an environment that fosters the development of a high-quality work force and productive collaboration between corporations and universities if America wants to maintain a competitive advantage in research and development." If there was ever a clear sign that we need to get serious about education in this country, I think this is it. It is time that we stop letting Republicans say that lose jobs because of cheap labor and start to tell them we lose jobs because their policies make us uncompetitive. We need to make sure that our best and brightest can go to college, so not only can they get a quality education, but also so that companies will stay here and our graduates can get jobs.

In addition to education, a recent article in Dissent Magazine, which I cannot find to reference, brought to my attention the issue of health care in relation to economic competitiveness. The basic premise of the article was that companies do not want to pay for health care for their employees in the United States so they move their jobs to countries with universal health care. After reading this article, at a recent campaign event a person shared a related story with me.

Within the last few years, several companies have looked to move into the state of Ohio. One of these companies, I believe it was an auto manufacturer, decided against moving their operation to Ohio and instead located to Ontario, Canada. Obviously, they did not locate to Canada because of lower taxes, which is why Republicans want you to believe that we lose jobs. They moved to Canada because after a comparative analysis, and after all of the tax incentives offered to companies in the United States, it made more sense for them to go to Canada because it offered universal health care. While it helps their bottom line not to have to pay for health care, companies also like knowing that their employees will be healthy and able to get medical care if they are sick, reducing the amount of employee sick days. This makes sense to me and it is time we as Democrats start articulating these issues not only in moral terms, which also make sense to me, but also in economic terms, which appeal to people's common sense.

In short, Democrats need to stop taking the bait and talking about outsourcing in terms of tax incentives and cheap labor. We need to start talking about it in terms of health care and education. Democrats need to start going with the flow, because our companies and jobs are flowing with the marketplace of the 21st Century. Nicholas M. Donofrio, executive vice president for technology and innovation at I.B.M., said ""We go with the flow, to find the best minds we can anywhere in the world." It is time that Democrats become the party of the 21st Century and assert policies that guarantee the United States has the best minds in the world. If we are to become the 21st Century Party, as we were the party of the 20th Century, then we need to realize that the marketplace is no longer only about taxes and wages; it is also about education and quality of life. Only if we come to this realization will we once again lead this country, and to some degree the world. If we do not, then this century we will not be leaders, but followers of the marketplaces of Japan, Europe, and China.

John Swords
Candidate for Congress
Ohio's 12th United States Congressional District

Originally posted to John Swords for Congress on Thu Feb 16, 2006 at 12:54 PM PST.

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Comment Preferences

    •  The auto company that went (4.00)
      to Canada recently was a company (I think it was Ford or GM) that had been in Alabama.  Not only were the health care costs non existant in Canada, but mangement was thoroughly put off by the skill level of the Alabama workforce.  It appears from the stories that I have read, many of the workers had to use visual aides to learn their jobs.  The ability to understand critcal pieces of information was limited. So it is about paying for the infrastucture. Roads, and railways are one type, education and healthcare are another.

      Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities-Voltaire

      by hairspray on Thu Feb 16, 2006 at 01:07:31 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Toyota (none)
        I believe.

        It was also about the cost of health insurance. They saw Canada and said, mm hm, I think we'll go there.
        IIRC, they were offered serious tax incentives to open up in the States, but figured they were still better off up there.

        And the Republicans say we don't have any plans. Of course we do. Smarten up the country and keep 'em healthy.

        10. Magic Imperial Authority. Kitty. Box fan. -driftglass

        by justme on Thu Feb 16, 2006 at 01:44:33 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Not Entirely-- (none)
    I don't have a reason to change your policy focus on education and health care.

    But I did support staff work for a university research admininistration department 10 years ago [they managed the contracts between sponsors and researchers], and here's what I recall:

    Even then there was a vigorous outsourcing movement away from the university into private research organizations for reasons of cost (not only labor but also for avoiding the indirect costs of helping pay for university facilities) and of course for keeping results secret and proprietary.

    We had the best minds on our campuses at that time and the companies appear to me to have been fleeing them for low cost and information control.

    I'm not an expert in this field--I just did the pre-India computer support for the research administrators--but I think all of this comes down to money a lot more ways than not.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy....--ML King, "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Thu Feb 16, 2006 at 01:01:46 PM PST

    •  In a nursing publication (none)
      that I read recently, I learned about the movement away from university based research to research conducted in the pharmaceutical laboratories. In this case the companies took over control of the process (downsizing of government was the mantra in the '80's) and then began shifting it to things that would benefit their commercial endeavors. This steady move away from inductive to deductive science has given us the corporatization  of all new discovies.  

      Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities-Voltaire

      by hairspray on Thu Feb 16, 2006 at 01:32:47 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  As a software engineer ... (none)
    I concur.

    Also, the company that located in Canada instead of the U.S. was Toyota.

    However, I personally am a former Ohioan (Born in Akron, went to Ohio State, but now live in Missouri). My mother-in-law does however live in your district. I will contact her and her peers to push for your election.

    (-6.25, -5.23)
    Hopelessly pedantic since 1963.

    by admiralh on Thu Feb 16, 2006 at 01:04:24 PM PST

  •  health care (none)
    I think this is an area of growing consensus behind the scenes. Many CEOs/etc, that are normally solid R, are openly complaining about this. The real question is, will either party (I worry about Dems too, I'm afraid) allow the other to be seen as having success on this issue? In other words, if Dems try to do something, will Repubs sabotage it--against the desires of their corporate sponsors--simply because they can't allow Dems to get credit for something so good for so many? Or worse, would Dems sabotage a Repub effort simply because they can't afford to cede arguably their top issue to the Repubs? Time will tell. I hope we (Dems) make the right choice if it comes to that.
    •  Education doesn't matter (none)
      if the guy in India, with the same degree, can do the same job for 20% of an American's salary.
      •  cheapness overestimated (none)
        The cheapness of outsourcing to India is overestimated IMHO. I have direct experience with it. There are substantial overheads, etc. Also I think the reporting sensationalizes things by quoting the extremes--the highest-paid of our guys vs. the cheapest quotes someone found by googling for their guys. Check out this idea: outsourcing to rural United States engineers. Much of the reason computer programmers in the US have such a high salary on average is because of the skew caused by many of them being located in Silicon Valley, which has a ghastly high cost of living. Just think about what kind of house $300,000 will buy you in the middle of nowhere (mansion), vs what it will buy you in San Francisco (nothing), and you get an idea of how much cheaper engineers could be, with the same standard of living, in other places in the US.
    •  that is just flat out scary. (4.00)
      To think that this country is so divided that one party would sabatoge another at the expense of the people of the country just to prove a point.

      I can't stand my sister. I barely talk to her on christmas. But when she has no money for her meds or her bills, I step up and help her out. Why? Because we're in this together.

      If that infighting and sabatoge is indeed the case, then perhaps outsourcing is for the best for now, until we all realize we are all in this together, and we have to work together. This "everything is either/or, on/off binary" mentality has to stop. Life is full of all shades and tints of color, not just black and white.

      We have no future because our present is too volatile. We only have risk management. The spinning of the given moments scenario. Pattern Recognition. ~W. Gibson

      by Silent Lurker on Thu Feb 16, 2006 at 01:31:15 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Oh, please. (none)
        To think that this country is so divided that one party would sabatoge another at the expense of the people of the country just to prove a point.

        Not to be disparaging, but, where have you been for the last five years?

        The Bankruptcy Bill.
        No Child Left Behind.
        Medicare Reform.
        The Help America Vote Act.
        The Heathy Forests Initiative.
        Election 2004, and everything connected to it like...
        The Swiftboat Veterans for Truth.

        I could go on, but I don't want to scroll off the page.

        It's what they do. It verily defines who they are. It is zero-sum politics. If you deprive somebody of something, that means you must be better off, right? Relative wealth. That's their game, and they play it as dirty as possible.

        It's disgusting but it's true.

        There is no nuance to fascism. You're either with it, or you're against it.

        10. Magic Imperial Authority. Kitty. Box fan. -driftglass

        by justme on Thu Feb 16, 2006 at 02:04:13 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  nt (none)

          Not to be disparaging, but, where have you been for the last five years?

          /rude

          We have no future because our present is too volatile. We only have risk management. The spinning of the given moments scenario. Pattern Recognition. ~W. Gibson

          by Silent Lurker on Thu Feb 16, 2006 at 02:10:58 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  My apologies. (none)
            I don't mean to come off as a prick, I'm just sayin'.

            Your presence here on the site does indicate an awareness of the problem. Your comment just struck me as a bit "Capt. Renault".

            10. Magic Imperial Authority. Kitty. Box fan. -driftglass

            by justme on Thu Feb 16, 2006 at 03:49:53 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

  •  one way to nip this in the bud.... (4.00)
    Outsource the jobs of CEOs, CFOs, and COOs.

    Once these guys and gals see their jobs are in as much trouble as everyone elses, they will find ways to show how outsourcing is bad for business and put an end to it.

    •  Been there, done that (none)
      Isn't the guy that's running Ford from Europe?

      Toyota (or any other company) still has to pay for health care costs in Canada.

      They pay for them via taxes, rather than via insurance premiums.

      They probably pay less in Canada but to say "They don't pay for health care costs" would not be completely accurate.

      •  And that's the kicker (none)
        it's not that they don't pay healthcare, it's the cost of it.

        If EVERYBODY pays, it's cheaper for everybody.

        The WalMarts of the world DO NOT pay for their workers healthcare in the same way that the big manufacturers do. The WalMarts of the world offer insurance, and make the WORKER pay for it -- ALL of it. Then to make it worse, they don't pay them enough to even afford it in the first place, so they wind up not getting any care until it's so bad it costs 10 times more than it should.

        And to add insult to injury, WE wind up footing the bill - and so do the big manufacturers, in increased insurance costs as well as taxes.

        Same with small companies, for totally different reasons. They simply can't afford to pay insurance costs and still pay their workers.

        In the rest of the civilized world, your TAXES fund the healthcare system, and EVERYBODY pays, and EVERYBODY is covered.

        Which is one of the reasons why most of the civilized world lives longer, healthier, lives than we do.

    •  No - outsource the finance guys (none)
      There aren't enough of those executives to make a dent in anyone's consciousness. What they need to do is start outsourcing the MBA people. There's lots of them, they make a ton of money, and they're not used to outside competition at all. You outsource those jobs, and outsourcing would be made illegal the next day.

      A word after a word after a word is power. -- Margaret Atwood

      by tmo on Thu Feb 16, 2006 at 01:34:09 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  the top guys make a lot of money (none)
        of course, that means the rest of top managment also makes a lot of money.  I do agree that the MBAs should go first though.  But in the end, I think this outsourcing craze is going to end up with a lot of previously American brands being bought up overseas, particularly by Chinese companies.  It's happening every day.  The executives don't care so much because they have golden parachutes.

        I definitely think that a lot of what is currently wrong with this country could be solved with education and universal health care.  Think about the advantages of starting a small business while not worrying about your own health care.  

      •  Finance guys? (none)
        They do that already. There are whole oppressions that specialize in accounting and bookkeeping--with CPA's even--outsourcing to India.

        The big guys feel safe because they are the guys sending the jobs overseas, we need to start sending their jobs over too.

        Lets start with GM.

  •  irony on outsourcing (none)
    In an ironic note:
    The NYTimes themselves have recently outsourced the compter operators, the cafeteria staff and System Support (my job for the last 25 years) is scheduled for June.
    There are indications that yet another round of layoffs will occur this Spring. The Times is moving into a new building in 2008 and it is rumored they want to eliminate the entire union workforce by then.
  •  Mr. Swords (none)
    Thank you for bringing this up.

    The problem is two fold.

    First off it is the economics. Companies can't burden the cost of healthcare any longer. I can't understand why Democrats don't push a universal health care plan that can be sold as helping small business, and for that matter big business. You think GE would like to get rid of its healthcare coverage?

    If I am a business owener with fulltime employees I am going nuts over this. Why shouldn't I go offshore if I could?

    If I had a business, and it didn't need to be in the USA, I would do it somewhere else.

    But us Dems stay quiet and we further alienate the small-medium sized business community. We are more worried about supporting labor in their fights with business for healthcare coverage than trying to help both.

    THIS SHOULD BE THE FUNDAMENTAL DEBATE IN 2006 and 2008.

    Also, there is a lack of skill and knowledge in mathematics and science in this country. Go to an upper level physics or math course at any college. Very few of the students in advanced engineering and science are Americans.

    They are all foriegners. We have to get back to learning in our public schools.  Everyone in school wants to be a Wall Street banker. Investment guy. They don't want to make their money by inventing things. They would rather invest in someone elses hard work. That hard work is going over seas.

    We have too many MBA's, and lawyers and not enough Dr's in physics and engineering.

    •  Wrong (none)
      We have too many MBA's, and lawyers and not enough Dr's in physics and engineering.

      Only Israel graduates more engineers per capita than the US. The whole 'China graduates 300000 engineers per year' is a comparison of apples and oranges as many of those engineers would not qualify to be called engineers in this country.

      The whole 'there is an engineering shortage in the US' was started by a guy named Harris Miller in the ninties as a function of his work for the ITAA.

      Allow me to share an e-mail I sent to the LA Times yesterday. It is long but I think important enough to post in this diary.

      The stuff regarding Harris Miller and the 'engineering shortage' is at the bottom - "And lastly I will add this link from the Linux
      Journal, dated October 1999."

      Ms. Iritani,

      I wanted to send you a note in response to your
      February 12, 2006 Times article titled 'U.S. Tech
      Firms, Citing 'Brain Drain,' Push to Hire More Skilled
      Foreigners'.

      I am an electrical engineer, and while I have a
      personal story which directly contradicts some of what
      you have been told by those you quote in your story, I
      will forgo my personal story and simply ask that the
      next time you write a similar story, you keep in mind
      some of the following when you interview IT CEO's and
      immigration attorneys.

      --- In a Feb. 2 speech at the Minnesota headquarters
      of 3M, the president said it was a "mistake not to
      encourage more really bright folks who can fill the
      jobs that are having trouble being filled here in
      America."

      http://www.programmersguild.org/...

      Apparently this is a new twist on the frame 'jobs that
      Americans just won't do', and apparently we need these
      'really bright folks' to fill jobs like Real Estate
      Analysts, Database Administrators, Tax Compliance
      Specialists, Restaurant Managers, Beauty College
      Vocational School Instructors, Landscape Architect
      Interns, and so on. Note that this link is a list for
      only Sacremento, and only for the year 2004.

      --- Marland Buckner, a senior federal affairs manager
      for Microsoft Corp., said the company has had "several
      thousand core technology positions" go unfilled in
      recent years because of a limited ability to hire
      qualified foreign workers.

      http://www.cis.org/...

      "Missing the Core "Shortage" Issue"
      The employers claim to be "desperate" to hire, yet
      their actions show otherwise. Cisco receives 20,000
      applications per month but hires only five percent of
      the applicants. Inktomi hires only one percent,
      Microsoft two percent"

      --- Silicon Valley companies are among the most vocal
      advocates of H-1B reform.

      Reform? Type 'H1B fraud' into Google and scan some of
      the results that are returned. Just picking a random
      result from the 64,700 results returned.

      http://www.techlawjournal.com/...

      House Immigration Subcommittee Holds Hearing on H1B
      Visa Fraud (May 6, 1999)

      "Next, the H-1B Program is not without fraud. A March
      1999 report by the INS' Vermont Service Center on
      Indian H-1B fraud described companies that established
      subsidiaries in the U.S. and then solicited job
      candidates and guaranteed them employment in the U.S.
      for a fee of $8,000 to $10,000. If the applicant did
      not have the necessary educational background to
      qualify for an H-1B visa, the recruiting agency would
      charge an additional fee and provide the applicant
      with fraudulent educational certificates or employment
      experience letters.

      One of the questions we need to ask today is whether
      there are ways to eliminate structural vulnerabilities
      that exist in these visa categories while maintaining
      them as vehicles that are responsive to the real needs
      of legitimate companies."

      --- Every employer still faces a shortage of certain
      talent

      The law of supply and demand would dictate that if a
      shortage exists, the price for whatever it is that is
      in short supply will increase. That is to say, if
      there is truly a shortage of engineering talent, the
      wages offered for that talent should increase. Why is
      it then that salaries for engineers and computer
      scientists is going down, rather than increasing?

      http://www.elecdesign.com/...

      "engineering incomes remained relatively flat in 2005
      ... BLS says that over the next decade, most job
      growth will be generated by low-paying positions in
      the service sector. This is a major shift from earlier
      estimates, which projected domestic job growth from
      engineering and other white-collar/high-tech
      segments."

      --- Companies say that too few U.S. citizens are
      getting upper-level degrees in math and sciences.

      So the answer is to import those who do have
      upper-level degrees? What is the logical extreme here?
      Does anyone advocating importing so called 'talent'
      from overseas believe that the students now in college
      are going to be persuaded to study engineering or
      computer science as they now see not only the massive
      offshoring of jobs, as well as the importation of
      engineers and computer scientists for those jobs which
      cannot be offshored (yet)?

      In closing I will include three additional links.

      The first is from the Center for Immigration Studies,
      which was written in 2005 and has not, to my knowledge
      been contested either in its methods or its
      conclusion:

      The Bottom of the Pay Scale - Wages for H-1B Computer
      Programmers
      http://www.cis.org/...

      The second is a recent article by Paul Craig Roberts:

      http://www.counterpunch.org/...
      Nuking the Economy

      "In five years the US economy only created 70,000 jobs
      in architecture and engineering, many of which are
      clerical. Little wonder engineering enrollments are
      shrinking. There are no jobs for graduates. The talk
      about engineering shortages is absolute ignorance.
      There are several hundred thousand American engineers
      who are unemployed and have been for years. No student
      wants a degree that is nothing but a ticket to a soup
      line. Many engineers have written to me that they
      cannot even get Wal-Mart jobs because their education
      makes them over-qualified."

      And lastly I will add this link from the Linux
      Journal, dated October 1999.

      http://www.colosseumbuilders.com/...
      Is There an "Alarming" Shortage of IT Workers?

      "In 1997, the commercial software industry's
      mouthpiece, the Information Technology Association of
      America (ITAA), mounted a highly successful public
      relations campaign proclaiming an "alarming" shortage
      of IT workers. The campaign was led by the ITAA's new
      president, Harris Miller.

      Who's Miller? Now, you'd think the ITAA would be led
      by somebody with lengthy IT experience. Not so.
      According to Miller's chief adversary, University of
      California professor Norman Matloff, Miller is a
      former immigration industry lobbyist. Prior to heading
      up the ITAA, Matloff claims, Miller was a lobbyist for
      the National Council of Agricultural Employers (NCAE).
      This organization reportedly backed a controversial
      visa program for farm workers. Here's the formula:
      Industry associations flood the media with reports of
      acute labor shortages. The public gets scared that
      they won't get their zucchinis and cantaloupes. Worker
      advocates argue that no shortage exists, but they're
      ignored--as is the U.S. government study denying the
      existence of an acute labor shortage. So the
      legislation gets passed. Farm worker wages continue
      their downward spiral, amid charges of inhumane
      conditions for guest workers."

      <div style="font-size:10px;text-align:center;background-color:#ffd;color:#f33">If the terriers and bariffs are torn down, this economy will grow - G. Bush

      by superscalar on Thu Feb 16, 2006 at 02:25:17 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  And Harris Miller? (none)
        He's running for Senate in Virginia as a Democrat.

        If he wins the primary, then it's goodbye outsourcing as a Democratic issue.

        And, sadly, there are many even here on Kos that see Miller as supporting American workers. Well, those affected by his actions aren't fooled.

      •  Yes there is an engineer glut (none)
        It's crazy to become an engineer right now.  Sad to say, since I have a Ph.D. in engineering.
        •  The lunacy of it all (none)
          Is that those of us who are engineers ran around saying 'you cannot possibly believe that India and China will not also move up the value chain i.e. your argument that only the low value jobs will move offshore is fallacious'. We were not listened to, Harris Miller and his ilk had too much money and too much access.

          Now that same group of us are busy running around yelling 'you cannot possibly believe the education and health care is the magic bullet'. We will not be listened to this time either.

          <div style="font-size:10px;text-align:center;background-color:#ffd;color:#f33">If the terriers and bariffs are torn down, this economy will grow - G. Bush

          by superscalar on Thu Feb 16, 2006 at 03:15:01 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  Any American college kid ... (none)
      knows that the way to make a living is not to study engineering or science, but to take easy business courses while making the all-important contacts at the frat house.
  •  U.S. poor not going to college. (none)
    The U.S. has already ossified into a highly rigid class society. High-achieving students from low-income families are five times less likely to attend college than students from high-income families. [National Education Longitudinal Survey (NELS) 1998]

    Is private credit the friend and patron of industry? -- The Federalist Papers, No. 15, Alexander Hamilton

    by NBBooks on Thu Feb 16, 2006 at 02:05:31 PM PST

  •  Please do not join the crowd (none)
    If there was ever a clear sign that we need to get serious about education in this country, I think this is it.

    How can you possibly believe that education is the answer?

    • Given two engineers, one in India, one in the US.

    • Both engineers are building or developing the same product.

    • All factors regarding the education are roughly equal.

    • The engineer in the US makes 70,000 per year.

    • The engineer in India make 7,000 per year.

    Question - how does the engineer in the US compete? This is exactly the bill of goods we were sold in the nineties, 'move up the value chain, the old economy jobs are gone, we need to educate ourselves for the 21st century jobs'.

    Now the 21st century jobs are going and we are told again 'move up the value chain, go back to community college'. How exactly does going back to community college work when you have already spent a large portion of your life in college, and have two degrees. One degree by the way in engineering, which President Bush, Congress, and the rest in government say we don't have enough of.

    Education is a red herring. It is not about smart. It is about cheap.

    Kids are smart, they have seen the writing on the wall and don't buy into the whole 'American workers can compete with any worker in the world' line. They are rapidly discovering that we cannot compete on price - and price, over the past twenty years has become the ultimate decision maker. I think you will do yourself more good John by educating yourself as to what is really going on, rather than buying in to the same tired old load of crap that the rest of Congress is now being sold.

    <div style="font-size:10px;text-align:center;background-color:#ffd;color:#f33">If the terriers and bariffs are torn down, this economy will grow - G. Bush

    by superscalar on Thu Feb 16, 2006 at 02:16:40 PM PST

    •  Reply (none)
      I am not saying that education is the only answer, but it is part of the solution. The fact that some people cannot go to college even if they are outstanding students limits the quality of our workforce, which is something that companies do look at in determining where to locate. My argument is not that tax incentives and cheap labor do not matter, but that there are other factors such as health care costs and education that play into the issue of outsourcing.
      •  Reply to your reply ;-) (none)
        First, I think that we need to agree that offshoring not outsourcing is the real issue. There is nothing inherently wrong with outsourcing.

        I simply have to disagree here John. Give multinationals all the universal health care and PhD's they want, I would argue they are still going to offshore the jobs.

        I am not saying that education is the only answer, but it is part of the solution

        But you would seem to say that tax incentives, health care costs, and education are the entirety of the problem set. My point is that it goes way beyond that.

        Pretend I am a US multinational

        • I can pay a worker in India ten percent of what I can pay a worker in the US
        • I can get tax incentives from the Indian government
        • I can hide my profits in India so as to escape paying US taxes
        • I can bribe the Indian goverment such that I am immune to upholding virtually any law
        • I can dump my toxins in India without the worrying about the EPA or any other annoying government agency
        • I can have the government act on my behalf to suppress worker rights and those annoyances such as unions
        • when the workers get to expensive in India, I can pack up shop and move to VietNam

        And the list goes on.

        I don't mean to pick on India. Choose your location - China, VietNam, Malaysia. The list is long.

        Now there are those on the hard left of the party that would say 'in the long run, we need to solve these issues for all peoples', and I agree. However as Keynes said, in the long run, we are all dead.

        <div style="font-size:10px;text-align:center;background-color:#ffd;color:#f33">If the terriers and bariffs are torn down, this economy will grow - G. Bush

        by superscalar on Thu Feb 16, 2006 at 02:56:39 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  My plan (none)
          I am interested in knowing what you view as possible solutions. My plan would include;

          1.) Further tax incentives for research and development firms

          2.) 3000 dollartax credit for college

          3.) Universal Health Care

          4.) The establishment of a commission whose sole purpose would be to determine how to reform the tax code and close the tax loopholes that corporations utilize to move jobs overseas

          5). I would only support trade agreements that had appropriate labor, environment, and human rights standards in it

          •  I don't mean to cop out on you here (none)
            But I think it is simply too late for solutions. The horse is not only out of the barn, he has disappeared over the horizon.

            I started screaming about offshoring, the loss of high tech jobs, and the stupidity of the H1B limits in 1999.

            I sent Lou Dobbs my first email about the offshoring of engineering jobs, and the fact that high tech firms were firing their staff and replacing them with cheap H1B's and L1's very early in 2002.

            People seem to act as though offshoring and the replacement of US engineers, computer scientists, and now restaurant managers, with H1B's and L1's is some kind of new phenomenon. It is not.

            <div style="font-size:10px;text-align:center;background-color:#ffd;color:#f33">If the terriers and bariffs are torn down, this economy will grow - G. Bush

            by superscalar on Thu Feb 16, 2006 at 03:57:13 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

  •  Life is ever so strange (none)
    Years ago, in the 50s, I watched workers laid off each year from the factories. No one gave a damn.

    Years pass and lower level management is laid off along with the production workers. No one gave a damn.

    Years pass and corporate America decides to down size. Anyone 55 years old was gone. No one gave a damn.

    Now we have eveyone in the God damn factory except the CEO subject to a pink slip. Education doesn't mean a damn thing.

    Well, well.

    How do I articulate this thought?

    Life is ever so strange......

    Way back when I was fortunate enough to become an apprentice carpenter. I worked steady my whole life. I'm retired now. No more worry, no more hurry.

    I visit the job sites from time to time. A young apprentice told me a few weeks back he doesn't ever have to worry about outsourcing because he's a carpenter, a man with a trade.

    I told him about the simple reality of life. He discovered he was not only smug but ignorant.

    If enough office workers jobs are outsourced overseas, how many office buildings will be built?

    How many will be renovated?

    Life is ever so strange.

    No one gives a damn.....

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