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Once again my brain missed that left turn in Albuquerque.  What started as a survey of recent immigrants about whether they think there are Americans who would do their jobs if they left them, has turned a bit strange.  You see my night job is at the minimum wage flying knife UN.

As I worked my way around the crew prodding them yet again about something that at the time was at best a distraction to them and an excuse for me to avoid actually working.  By the time I got to the 5th person the topic of green-card marriages was brought up 5 times (not by me).  Not to trivialize gay marriage, but the group conversation quickly turned to "would you enter a gay marriage for a green card?"

more below

I am not gay and don't feel I have the right to tell anyone they can't get married.  My one semi-scientific argument for gay marriage (besides the recent pheremone discoveries) is that there is a higher than anyone would think number of babies who are born intersex. I don't think it's fair to tell someone they can't get married to anyone because they have a physical birth defect.

Ok - back to the gay green-card marriages.  First of all when a bi-national couple try to get residency for the immigrant half of their unit, they are flung into the akward pretzel of a position of trying to prove that they are in fact really married.  The one easy way to prove a marriage has been consumated is by having a kid together.  Many couples jump through a bunch of weird hoops like trying to memorize details like their partners toothbrush color.

While I don't have any documented proof of this issue ever being presented to immigration, I'm sure if it hasn't happened yet, it will soon.  What I am wondering is how they would differentiate between two men in love and two roomates looking to beat the system.  Hell, I'd marry a guy for decent health insurance.  I don't know what I'd do if I were looking to not get booted out of the country.  Not surprisingly it took a couple of minutes for the machismo in the air to boil off before the guys started saying that yes they would (FAKE) marry a guy for a green card.

Most sets of roomates I know argue like old married couples anyway.  How could anyone prove or disprove their marriage if they were to claim they had one?  who knows. I bet this is one of the reasons the Gay-marriage amendment is being pushed at the same time as immigration reform though.  I can't be the only one twisted enough to have thought of this...... Can I?

Originally posted to my foot itches on Wed May 17, 2006 at 11:26 AM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

  •  what do you think? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Hamish in CT

    there is no tommorow. there is only today and hope.

    by my foot itches on Wed May 17, 2006 at 11:21:13 AM PDT

  •  The marriage... (0+ / 0-)

    (of whatever type) doesn't get you citizenship... this is a myth expounded by those who don't know what they're talking about.

    The details are on INS website:
    http://www.uscis.gov/...

    And yes, you'll have to dig...because it's hard to get answers from INS...deliberately so for law-abiding folks.

  •  of course (4+ / 0-)

    It's plausible.  But lots more people heterosexually marry for the same reason; should that be reason to outlaw marriage all together?

    By the way, the intersex stuff (hermaphrodite is not really representative of who we are) is easily available without the fake porn but you simply need to search the right words and hermaphrodite isn't it.  Conservatively it's about 1:2000 live births, realistically it's probably more in the range of 1:250 if you include all the different chromosome variations that are possible.

  •  I'm getting gay married to a Spaniard... (6+ / 0-)

    ...but we're going to have to move to Spain to be together.  Even if we are legally married here in the state of MA (where I live), he is not allowed to move here since immigration is a federal thing.  Unless gay marriage is legal in all 50 states through federal statutes, then no one will ever be able to 'gay marry' to get a green card or permanent residency.  Since that's not likely to happen in this country for a long time, it's not really a concern that people will be trying this.  Hence, I'm moving to Spain where they will allow me to live with the man I love.

    Here's a quick little item about it on my blog if you're interested.  http://jowlmovement.blogspot.com/...

    "Everybody needs a good Jowl Movement to start their day!" Jowl Movement

    by Tallsonofagun on Wed May 17, 2006 at 11:35:55 AM PDT

  •  I am one half (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    brittain33, Bob Love, pico, my foot itches

    of a bi-national couple.  My boyfriend is Thai (his stepfather is American), and he recently got his Green card.

    I have been told by friends to be very careful of entering into a civil union with him, if only for the risk to his eventual application for citizenship.

    (next weekend marks the second anniversary since we met).

    January 20. 2009 cannot come soon enough.

    by Crisis Corps Volunteer on Wed May 17, 2006 at 11:38:07 AM PDT

    •  Happy Anniversary! (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      my foot itches

      And good luck on his application.

      In my many years I have come to a conclusion that one useless man is a shame, two is a law firm, and three or more is a congress. -- John Adams

      by artifex on Wed May 17, 2006 at 11:42:11 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  6 years (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        my foot itches

        to get his green card, thanks to post-9/11 bureaucracy, a semi-competent immigration lawyer and a mother who should have taken him to the US when he was a teenager rather than him coming to the US as an adult (he is 32).

        Thanks.  I do have to say though, thanks to all of the above, I was able to meet him.  He was volunteers for a non-profit organization and one of his co-workers, who lives next to me, hosted a Memorial Day BBQ.  We met there and started talking.  He flattered me by saying how well I spoke Thai, but the next thing we both knew was that it was midnight and he gave me his phone number.  We met again the next week, and that's when we started going out.

        January 20. 2009 cannot come soon enough.

        by Crisis Corps Volunteer on Wed May 17, 2006 at 11:57:30 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  sigh. (0+ / 0-)

    Anti-gay marriage amendments have nothing to do with immigration, and everything to do with denying gays and lesbians fair and equitable treatment under the law, for things like survivorship, parental rights, etc.

    Also, you'd be more successful comparing homosexuality in humans with known homosexual activities in animals, countering the "unnatural" argument, than taking the tack that it's a rare anomaly, like hermaphroditism.

    In my many years I have come to a conclusion that one useless man is a shame, two is a law firm, and three or more is a congress. -- John Adams

    by artifex on Wed May 17, 2006 at 11:39:33 AM PDT

    •  see comment - of course by tvb (0+ / 0-)

      there is no tommorow. there is only today and hope.

      by my foot itches on Wed May 17, 2006 at 11:51:14 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  It doesn't work. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      my foot itches
      You suggest:

      Also, you'd be more successful comparing homosexuality in humans with known homosexual activities in animals, countering the "unnatural" argument . . . .

      I've tried that lots of times.  It doesn't work.  Some winger will say, "Homosexuality is unnatural.  You cannot find it in nature."  I'll counter with all the documented cases of homosexual behavior in nature.  They'll respond:  "Well, we are called to a higher moral level than animals!!!!"

      Religious prejudice against homosexuality is a non-falsifiable closed system.  Any evidence they use is a convenient excuse to bolster their position, but any evidence you use against them is ignored.

  •  'because they have a physical birth defect'??? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Crisis Corps Volunteer

    I know that your heart is in the right place, but considering being gay a "birth defect" is not very enlightened. Being gay hasn't been considered a "disease" by the medical establishment since the early 1970's.  And the connotation that there is "something wrong" with gay people can only help to continue to give the less enlightened reasons to deny us our full rights as human beings.

    "Reality has a well-known liberal bias" -Stephen Colbert (-6.38/ -4.21)

    by wonkydonkey on Wed May 17, 2006 at 11:40:22 AM PDT

    •  I think (3+ / 0-)

      He was talking about intersex people in that line.

      •  You are probably right, but... (0+ / 0-)

        ...I'm not sure many transgendered persons compare themselves to those with a club foot or a cleft palate either.  People deserve their civil rights because they are human beings period, which is what American civil rights progress has been all about.  Starting to consider "birth defects" as part of the equation puts us all on a slippery slope.  Is it OK to kill people with Downs' Syndrome?  Do people with Fetal Alcohol Syndrome waive habeaus corpus?  Are the autistic tax exempt?

        "Reality has a well-known liberal bias" -Stephen Colbert (-6.38/ -4.21)

        by wonkydonkey on Wed May 17, 2006 at 11:52:26 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  actually (0+ / 0-)

          what i was saying was that there are people who are born to a degree to be of both sexes.  either way it would be a same sex marriage.  they deserve rights to get married and the whole argument against samesex marriage never even considers that these people are even in existence.

          there is no tommorow. there is only today and hope.

          by my foot itches on Wed May 17, 2006 at 11:56:10 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  well (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          rserven, my foot itches

          Apologies here because I don't want to veer way OT on the diary but...(there's always a but for some reason)

          Intersex isn't transgender.  It's not even close.  While the communities may have some overlap the manifestation of trans and intersex are very different.

          Intersex is in the most basic sense a birth defect (even if I don't consider it one) and extraordinary measures are often undertaken to 'fix it' when the kid is an infant or young child.  While they may 'fix' the body, the genetics and mind cannot be changed. Amendments outlawing same gender marriage rely upon things like genitals and karotypes to classify into M or F and a lot of intersex people would fail that gender slotting test based upon the genes or genitals they were born with---karotypes and phenotypes are not always easily defined.

  •  Ablequerque? (0+ / 0-)

    It's Albuquerque.  And "my night job is at the minimum wage flying knife UN" is completely opaque.

    "... Just so long as I'm the dictator." - GWB, 12/18/00

    by Bob Love on Wed May 17, 2006 at 11:48:05 AM PDT

  •  Being gay not a place of honor in our culture (0+ / 0-)

    Sorry, but that dog don't hunt.  Why would two people lie about being gay so they could get a green card?  Coming out as LGBT only opens you to scron, hatred, discrimination and violence.  

    I am not sure how two heterosexuals can "keep up appearances" since they would even have to lie to even their intimate family members.  "We're getting married so Ricardo (or Jane) doesn't get deported, but don't tell the INS its all a lie.  They think we're gay."  Maybe a fraction of people could do it, but why not just hook up Ricardo (or Jane) with an appropriate member of the opposite sex?  It would be much more believable.

    •  marriage fraud happens all the time (0+ / 0-)

      and there is no need to keep up appearances.  cis doesn't make you video tape yourself in the act, nor do they call family members to verify anything.

      there is no tommorow. there is only today and hope.

      by my foot itches on Wed May 17, 2006 at 12:04:11 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Marriage fraud is marriage fraud (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    my foot itches

    gay or straight.  There are schemes set up all the time to enter into marriages so somebody can immigrate (this rings are also sometimes broken up by law enforcement).  Is that a problem?  Yes.  But it's a marriage fraud problem, not a same-sex marriage problem.

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