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Do you approve of the way DNC Chairman Howard Dean is doing his job?

Vote :: Results

Originally posted to Daily Kos on Tue May 23, 2006 at 08:15 AM PDT.

Poll

Do you approve of Howard Dean's performance?

87%11837 votes
9%1226 votes
3%442 votes

| 13506 votes | Vote | Results

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Comment Preferences

  •  Not since he went on the 700 club (11+ / 0-)

    and tried to appeal to the racist, homophobe wing of the Republican party

    Joshua P. Rosenstock is the Managing Editor of WashingtonHotlist.com

    by Washington Hotlist on Tue May 23, 2006 at 08:07:45 AM PDT

    •  Oh, come on. (0+ / 0-)

      He messed-up.  Give him a break.

      "In the beginning the universe was created. This has been widely criticized and generally regarded as a bad move." -- Douglas Adams

      by LithiumCola on Tue May 23, 2006 at 08:14:39 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Was it an innocent mistake? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        melvynny, rgdurst

        The Washington Blade reports that he's made the mistake before and been corrected on it.

        I'd like to see their sourcing, but that's troubling.

        •  Sourcing (5+ / 0-)

          Damn right I'd want to see sourcing on a claim like that.

          If Dean intentionally misspoke on the 700 Club after having been corrected in the past... can you imagine that he could possibly have thought no one would notice?

          Here's a guy who has had fairly innocuous statements blown up into major attacks.  I can't imagine that he'd knowingly misrepresent the party platform on the 700 Club and expect it to slide.  

          It's far more characteristic for him to have misspoken himself.  Dean has notoriously slipped up in things he's said... but he also has shown himself to be a damn fast learner.

          I've never seen him make the same mistake twice.  So the accusation that he had been corrected on this point in the past doesn't make a whole lot of sense. It'd need to be documented before I'd give it any credence.

          Don't mourn. Organize.

          by Malacandra on Tue May 23, 2006 at 08:47:04 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  The Washington Blade (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Crisis Corps Volunteer

          The Blade has been selective in its reporting and has cherry-picked facts to support its storyline.

          Liberal: "I still think it's a respectable word. Its root is "liber," the Latin word for "free," and isn't that what we are all about?"--Mary McGrory

          by mini mum on Tue May 23, 2006 at 09:46:56 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Explain, please (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            rgdurst

            What facts hasn't the Blade reported that it should have? You could help balance the story by posting them here.

            Most important (to me at least): Do you have reason to question the Blade's report that Dean was told on multiple occasions that his assertions about the party platform were incorrect, and yet he continued to make them?

            I'm not saying you're wrong.  I'd just like to know more about the story so I have more information on which to base an opinion.

            •  Yes, I do question it (0+ / 0-)

              Because the statement is unsubstantiated:

              He’s said the same thing too many times after being told it misrepresents the party’s official stance, which is to leave the issue to the states to resolve.

              Who told him?  When did they tell him?  We don't know and I suspect Chris Cain doesn't know either.  After all, if Crain knew, he should have named them.  But it fits the storyline of the overal editorial.  

              It's like reading about the "prominent Democrats" who are obsessed about the state of the Clintons’ marriage--anonymously, of course.  It's not necessary to name them because it supports the overall story.  It's just enough to suggest they're out there, just like it's just enough to suggest that Dean is a repeat offender.

              I come by my skepticism of the Blade honestly: a good friend of mine (now deceased) was gay and he was the only one I felt comfortable talking to about GLBT matters.

              Liberal: "I still think it's a respectable word. Its root is "liber," the Latin word for "free," and isn't that what we are all about?"--Mary McGrory

              by mini mum on Tue May 23, 2006 at 10:48:47 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  Didn't they hire Gannon to write a column? (0+ / 0-)

            Why yes, yes they did: Click Here.  Just saying.  

        •  Dean has not changed his position here... (3+ / 0-)

          It's been quite clear:
           
          (a) Marriage, as given by most religious organizations,
              is defined as between a man and a woman.

          (b) Civil Union is the "State" version of a Marriage,
              and need not have this restriction

          This distintion is very very important to the bulk of
          Americans, and even liberal Vermonters.   So when the
          Washington Blade reports that Dean says (a), but fails
          to report (b), they are deliberately twisting the facts.

          The Washington Blade, is filled with two sorts of Gay
          Men: (a) Log Cabin Republicans, who are delusional
          libertarians, and (b) Very liberal Democrats who don't
          understand national politics.   So, don't take what
          this news paper says for granted.   It is targeted
          at the DuPont Circle crowd (where there are lots
          of boys, but if you're a girl, you cannot get a date).
          It's pretty out there on most mainstream issues.  

          •  His position isn't the question (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            guyute16

            It's the Democratic Party Platform that he was talking about on the 700 Club, not his own personal position, so I'm not sure your comment is relevant.

            The Democratic Party Platform says nothing about a man and a woman.  It says the issue is best left to the states.

            As for the Blade, whether it's liberals or wingnuts working there is less relevant to me than whether the facts they publish are accurate.  And you provide no reason (beyond boys being able to get dates at Dupont Circle) for me to doubt the veracity of the facts that the Blade reports.

        •  He said we need to show that we have values and (0+ / 0-)

          they do not have a monopoly on that.  He said we need to show the guy with the gun and the confederate flag on his truck that he has more in common with us then Pugs.  Howard made no secret that he wanted to bring these people back into the party.  He might not have handled it well, but he did what he said he was going to do.  

          "Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid, it is true that most stupid people are conservative." John Stuart Mill

          by dkmich on Tue May 23, 2006 at 02:27:28 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  He didn't say he would spread falsehoods (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            dkmich

            The question isn't whether he is or should be reaching out to those with guns and pickups.

            The question is whether he has been intentionally misstating the party's position to do so.  

            Those are very different questions.

      •  I think Washington Hotlist is correct... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Crisis Corps Volunteer

        We all need to jump long and hard on every mistake any good man makes, stirring and dividing our movement to the point that it has no value and is no threat to the Nazi's who are now running things. We must turn on each other, right Washington H? I'm gonna go on over to the front page and find some small error to jump on right now!! Wheee!! Here I go!!!

        When NSA employees are spending their days spying on Americans, what is it they should actually be doing, and what is slipping by because they aren't?

        by MuldraughTim on Tue May 23, 2006 at 06:02:07 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Give me a break (0+ / 0-)

          Legitimate interparty discussion/criticism is what this site's for.  There's a big difference between that and turning on each other.  Discussing our differences candidly will help, not hurt, us in November.

          •  Dean needs the break! (0+ / 0-)

            If we were a busload of tourists being heldup on the side of the road by a gang of murdering thieves and Howard Dean was the ONE MAN standing at the front of the crowd rolling out his plan to save us, would you think it wise to abandon his leadership because something he said offended somebody on the damned bus?? Well, that's the situation TIMES A HUNDRED MILLION! Whatever the man said or did he said or did it FOR US!! With votes as close as they've been , it just may be the votes of a few homophobes that give us back our country. Like the rest of us, WH and you need to spend more time showing him appreciation and support, EVEN WHEN HE ISN'T PERFECT BY OUR STANDARDS. Let's save the negative "discussions" for matters and people who deserve it.

            When NSA employees are spending their days spying on Americans, what is it they should actually be doing, and what is slipping by because they aren't?

            by MuldraughTim on Thu May 25, 2006 at 12:47:03 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  reality check (0+ / 0-)

              Most of us participating in this discussion are not "abandoning" Dean.

              And the analogy you attempt is so far removed from reality that it has pretty much zero value, imho.

              One could just as easily make a worthless analogy in the opposite direction:

              If we were all sitting around a campfire, and it was Howard's job to add a log to keep it going, but he set the log in the wrong place, should one of us tell him so he could make sure it got into the fire and was able to burn or should we all refrain from "negative" discussion?

              Obviously that analogy is ridiculous, but so is yours.  If the best argument you can put forward has to do with what a busload of people facing a gang of murdering thieves should do if there is only ONE MAN rolling out a plan, you're going to lose this debate.

              •  I wish I had some of that good stuff (0+ / 0-)

                You're SMOKING! My analogy not REALISTIC? Did you vote for BUSH or what? You really don't see that what Bush has done is more seriously dangerous and more criminal than a highway robbery? These scum are killing us in Iraq everyday, they've been responsible for the deaths of God-only--knows how many deaths in New Orleans, they are stealing our rights of every type, spying on us to gain political advantage while robbing future generations of their chance at the kind of lives you and I have known, and YOU say none of that comes close to comapring to a simple robbery???? Are you playing devils' advocate or are you actually on his payroll?
                I think I've met my first real troll, face to face.

                When NSA employees are spending their days spying on Americans, what is it they should actually be doing, and what is slipping by because they aren't?

                by MuldraughTim on Thu May 25, 2006 at 09:43:18 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Impressive (0+ / 0-)

                  Your argument is so incisive, your use of caps so persuasive, and your accusation that I'm a troll so insightful that you've persuaded me.

                  Or, wait a minute ... no, you haven't.

                  Come back when you want to stop name calling and have a discussion.

                  •  Because... (0+ / 0-)

                    Anyone

                    who tries to minimize the horrendous crimes of this administration IS a troll.

                    When NSA employees are spending their days spying on Americans, what is it they should actually be doing, and what is slipping by because they aren't?

                    by MuldraughTim on Fri May 26, 2006 at 12:16:52 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Glad I'm not a troll then (0+ / 0-)

                      Since nowhere in the preceding thread have I mentioned President Bush, his administration, or their crimes -- much less tried to "minimize" them.

                      Neat use of graphics, btw.

                      •  You did say that Bush crimes don't compare (0+ / 0-)

                        to highway robbers and killers, didn't you? How in the hell can a war against an innocent people NOT be worse than a simple gang of psychopaths who rob and kill for other people's pocket money? Maybe you're not a troll, I don't know, but you damn sure have some kind of huge problem if you can't see that Bush is the worst thing to happen to this world since Hitler, and that includes EVERY robbing murderer out there. He's worse than any serial killer in history. And you think comparing him to murderous robbers is unrealistic? Give ME a break!

                        When NSA employees are spending their days spying on Americans, what is it they should actually be doing, and what is slipping by because they aren't?

                        by MuldraughTim on Fri May 26, 2006 at 03:37:19 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  I didn't mention Bush (0+ / 0-)
                          •  Berning baby, (0+ / 0-)

                            if we were not discussing how Bush and his crimes compared or did not compare to highway robbers we weren't talking at all. We must have imagined this entire diary. Go back to sleep and I'll see you in the morning.

                            When NSA employees are spending their days spying on Americans, what is it they should actually be doing, and what is slipping by because they aren't?

                            by MuldraughTim on Fri May 26, 2006 at 10:22:57 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  My analogy was ALL about Bush.... (0+ / 0-)

                            I WROTE:

                            "If we were a busload of tourists being heldup on the side of the road by a gang of murdering thieves and Howard Dean was the ONE MAN standing at the front of the crowd rolling out his plan to save us, would you think it wise to abandon his leadership because something he said offended somebody on the damned bus?? Well, that's the situation TIMES A HUNDRED MILLION!"

                            Your response to this analogy was:

                            "the analogy you attempt is so far removed from reality..."

                            blah blah blah

                            "The situation" I mentioned WAS Bush and the nightmare he has created for America. I assumed you knew that, I mean you are on the Dkos site after all. What other situation would I have meant? So your response would have either been about BUSH or you would have been typing without a clue. In either case I think it best we part now while we're still friends.

                            When NSA employees are spending their days spying on Americans, what is it they should actually be doing, and what is slipping by because they aren't?

                            by MuldraughTim on Fri May 26, 2006 at 10:36:20 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

    •  That was a mistake (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      guyute16

      And according to the Washington Blade, he's said the same thing (misstating the party's platform on gay marriage) and been corrected on it before.

      But he's done a lot of things right too, including the 50 state strategy.

      I'm somewhere between approve and disapprove.

      •  Agreed, some place in between (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        guyute16, boofdah, berning

        I agree, I'm somewhere in between these days.

        I don't believe for a minute that was a mistake. And YES I DO think the Democratic Party (not just Howard Dean) would gleefully jettison gay and lesbian voters if those votes could be made up someplace else.

        •  Wow (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Malacandra, mini mum

          I would need to hear a very good argument before I accepted that.

          "In the beginning the universe was created. This has been widely criticized and generally regarded as a bad move." -- Douglas Adams

          by LithiumCola on Tue May 23, 2006 at 08:43:11 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  The quest for ideological purity never ends. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          xerico, gmb

          And YES I DO think the Democratic Party (not just Howard Dean) would gleefully jettison gay and lesbian voters if those votes could be made up someplace else.

          Are we still nattering on about this?

          Look, Howard Dean stated the position of the Democratic Party on same-sex marriage in a way more palatable to religious conservatives. This did not change the party's position, did not enact legislation, did not affect the lives of even one gay person in this country, period. But it did marginally improve the possibility of winning a few conversions among conservatives unhappy with the Bush Presidency.

          Are we really saying that we are too good to reach out to these people? That we don't want these votes? It would be one thing to make political sacrifices for the sake of same-sex marriage if this was a cause that we could conceivably win on outside of a few liberal enclaves in the foreseeable future. But it's not, and in showing flexibility in the way he talks about the issue Howard Dean is only giving up something we have never had in the first place, and can't expect to have in the near future.

          For the time being, the LGBT movement has to be about something other than the same-sex marriage movement. Unless you live in Massachusetts, the cause is lost. Cry about it and move on.

          •  Ideological purity? Give me a break! (0+ / 0-)

            For the time being, the LGBT movement has to be about something other than the same-sex marriage movement. Unless you live in Massachusetts, the cause is lost. Cry about it and move on.

            Just for the record, I'm not crying about it. I believe the LGBT movement needs to be about civil rights and not waste time wringing our hands about marriage. I could care less about marriage, whether its same-sex, opposite sex, yours or anyone elses. As for me personally, I oppose any special priviledges for "married" people. Now THAT's ideological purity.  

            However Dr. Dean and my so-called Democratic Party friends don't exactly burn with a desire to support civil rights for gays and lesbians EITHER.

            •  Clinton aside, history doesn't really support you (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              gmb

              The roster of Democrats who have lost elections in whole or in part because they have taken courageous positions on behalf of our community is actually pretty long, including Senator Birch Bayh in Indiana in 1980 (to Dan Quayle) and Senator Max Cleland in Georgia (to Saxby Chambliss) four years ago. (Cleland was a sponsor of ENDA.)

              The Democrats have been imperfect in supporting gay and lesbian equal rights. I'll never argue otherwise, and Clinton was an unmitigated disaster for our movement. But you can't generalize these disappointments to a party that's actually risked a lot for the sake of fairness, considering the backwardsness of much of the U.S. electorate.

              If I were to sum up my opposition to these criticisms of Dean, it would be that we save our dudgeon for the controversies that matter, and our energies for fighting people who are actively hostile to our wellbeing.

              •  Oh yeah? What's your evidence? (0+ / 0-)

                Have to admit, I don't know much about Birch Bayh's loss, but I do know there was a lot more going on in Senator Cleland's race than his support for ENDA (which, by the way, is overwhelmingly supported by the American public).

                Also, two candidates does not a long roster make.  Who else do you want to add to your list?

                Regardless of who else you include, I don't buy your hypothesis.  I don't think most voters care that much about LGBT issues, and I think the people that care the most about these issues are members of the LGBT community.  Imho, supporting equality doesn't hurt candidates.

                You should look at the recent empirical research done by Geto and de Milly that indicates that the numerous anti-gay state ballot initiatives in 2004 did not help Bush defeat Kerry.  (There's an article about this research in the most recent issue of the Gay City News, but it is not yet online.)

                •  Spare me the Progressives! (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Crisis Corps Volunteer

                  I can certainly give you a long list of centrists and even conservatives (like the late Barry Goldwater!!) who have courageaously and forthrightly supported gay and lesbian civil rights EVEN when their contituencies were rabidly opposed to them on the issue.

                  On the other hand there are so, so many so-called progressive Democrats over the years who have been something less than stellar (and I include Dr. Dean in that list) or openly hostile to gay and lesbian civil rights. Regrettably quite a few of the most adored liberal icons have been among our worst enemies (like the late Paul Simon).  

              •  Paul Wellstone? (0+ / 0-)

                Who's going to vote for the candidate that likes to "shake things up?"

                Good luck. One such politician (before he died in a plane crash) was Paul Wellstone. He went in all fire and zeal, and was basically told by the party leadership to STFU and play ball or he will get NO SUPPORT on ANYTHING - including basic normal federal funding for highway projects and such.

                •  And there is... (0+ / 0-)

                  Bernie Sanders. Granted Vermont is an odd place where an independent social democrat can be elected (repeatedly) while thumbing his nose at the Democratic and Republican establishment, but a great example that you don't necessarily have to throw away your integrity.

                  I think the old Non-Partisan League of North Dakota and elsewhere in the plains states could be a model for progressives to follow in the future. In North Dakota the left didn't think third parties had a chance at the polls so the NPL ran candidates as Democrats in Democratic districts and as Republicans in Republican districts. Then when the legislature met they voted as an NPL bloc against the Democrats and Republicans.

                  But that is another discussion.

                  By the way, speaking of Prairie Progressives, the Canadian Broadcasting Co. has released Prairie Giant: The Tommy Douglas Story on DVD. You can buy it from www.cbc.ca for around $30.00 US

                  The film is well worth seeing, just for Americans to learn HOW universal health care was won AGAINST the Liberal and Conservative establishment (not to mention the insurance companies, medical and business establishments who also opposed it).

                •  Actually, Paul Wellstone voted for DOMA (0+ / 0-)

                  He was a great senator -- one of the best.  I had a chance to see him in person on several occasions and he was truly inspiring.

                  But, like all politicians (including Howard Dean), Paul Wellstone was not perfect, and we shouldn't try to deify him.  One of Senator Wellstone's flaws was that he voted for the Defense of Marriage Act when many progressives voted against it.

    •  Really? (0+ / 0-)

      When in the hell did that happen?

    •  Depressing (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Levity, barbwire

      I'm not so much angry about Dean's humongous mis-statement while he was trying to kiss theocon asses as I was disgusted. How far will he -- and many other Democrats -- go to win these unwinnable votes? Is there no limit to hypocrisy?

      And, yes, I mean hypocrisy. I'm not saying he intentionally misstated the Democratic platform, but I can't believe it was entirely misspeaking. I think we're talking about something along the lines of a freudian slip.

      I'm a Democrat. Always have been. Always will be. But there are a lot of unfriendly-to-gays and lesbians Democrats out there I will support ONLY if doing so might help take a seat away from a Republican.

      •  All of you guys can deny, deny, excuse, excuse... (0+ / 0-)

        but don't we want to look and sound different from the other side?  Shouldn't we try to avoid splitting hairs and using words like "misstated?"

        Than why are we taking a page out of their (admittedly successful but for the wrong reasons) playbook?

        Joshua P. Rosenstock is the Managing Editor of WashingtonHotlist.com

        by Washington Hotlist on Tue May 23, 2006 at 08:46:15 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Give Me A Break (7+ / 0-)

        Ken Melman is out there unironically trying to woo African American voters (the most reliable Dem voting block) to the repub side and we should not try to communicate directly with the theocons?  

        It is certainly possible that the theocons or whoever watches the 700 Club is never going to be interested in  a Dem message, but none of us will ever be confident in that assessment until we know that these folks are hearing our message without noise machine mediation.  It is part of the 50 state strategy -- you also talk to them via "their" media when you get the chance.

        Good on Dr. Dean for doing this -- he shows them all that he is not afraid of them, takes the chance to deliver a Dem message personally, and demonstrates to an audience that probably had no other chance to assess it (without Fox News or CNN assistance) that Dean is not batshit crazy.

        His mistatement is defintely bad, but remember that Dr. Dean signed the first civil union law (certainly after the courts told him he had to) in the US and lived with extra bodyguards and a bulletproof vest for awhile as a result.

        Ignorance, allied with power, is the most ferocious enemy justice can have. - James Baldwin

        by cassandra m on Tue May 23, 2006 at 09:55:00 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Nobody is saying that... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          berning, rgdurst

          ...Talk to the theocons if you must, just don't lie to them and throw the LGBT community under the bus while you'r doing it.  

          •  Come On (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            SulaymanF, Washington Hotlist

            You have a post below saying that you expect Dean's appearance on the 700 Club will be seen as a huge mistake AND that any trust you had in the man is deteriorated by his willingness to speak in the Lion's Den.

            Dr. Dean will never win in this scenario -- talk to them if you must, but at the price of my trust.  Oy vey.

            And you will have to provide serious evidence that he is trying to throw the LGBT community under a bus before that charge has any legs.  As far as I can tell, he misrepresented a platform item re: gay marriage on this program.  I don't think that one statement morphs into an entire pogrom.

            Ignorance, allied with power, is the most ferocious enemy justice can have. - James Baldwin

            by cassandra m on Tue May 23, 2006 at 11:40:10 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Uh....sure (0+ / 0-)

              He didn't "lie" he "misrepresented"

              Obfuscate if you must, but its clear to anyone not blind to hero worship.

              He didn't just go on the 700 club (which in itself is a pretty pointless thing to do).  No, he had to go on the 700 club and lie to those people about the Democratic Party's platform concerning gay marriage.  And he did so in a way that would appeal to their loathing of homosexuals.

              So yeah my two posts stand

              1.  I think its a dumbass thing to do for any Democrat to go on the 700 Club, but if you're gonna go that route at least don't lie and demonize gays.  And
              1.  His going on the 700 Club to lie and demonize gays has eroded my trust in him.

              I will concede your point however.  Dean can't win in this situation in my opinion.  And forgive the gay community if we don't wait until the pogroms are handed out before we start pointing out the hypocrisy and hate of such an act.

            •  of course you are right (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              gmb

              I think there has been a campaign by a few individuals with a personal grudge and it has been blown out of proportion.  

          •  he did neither (0+ / 0-)

            he certainly didn't lie.  He isn't that dumb.  He stated Kerry's position as the party position during the presidential race.  
            It was a completely inconsequential statement. You can chose to think he was pandering and take insult. But it was really not a reflection of Dean's intentions.  

            •  Whatever you think of Dean's (mis?)statement, (0+ / 0-)

              it surely was not inconsequential.  It offended a number of Democrats, resulted in continuing press coverage (see Frank Rich's NYT column on Sunday and Ruth Marcus' piece in today's Washington Post, for example), and led to discussion of other problems with the party's commitment to fairness and equality for the LGBT community.

              Also, I don't have a personal grudge against Howard Dean, I think my response has been of appropriate proportion, and I am not waging a "campaign" against him.  I am talking about his error, because it was a consequential one that deserves to be discussed.

            •  The Daily Show test (0+ / 0-)

              With all due respect, unless you've had a discussion with Dean personally on this you have absolutely no way of knowing his true intentions.  

              Also, your recent "rah rah let's all fundraise for Dean" diary hardly qualifies you as objective in this case to determine what is inconsequential.  The gay community LOVED Dean in 2003.  Now most have turned their back on them.  That's only inconsequential if you don't give a damn what we think, which believe me is coming through loud and clear.

              A final test of the craven nature of Dean's little stunt is how it was mocked on the Daily Show.

              Clips of Dean stating how much Democrats had in common with Christians, and in particular Evangelicals.  I mean, c'mon guys the Democratic party platform states that marriage is solely between a man and a woman!

              As Lewis Black said after running that clip "He's on his knees, but I don't think he's praying!"

        •  Why aren't we actively pursuing our supposed... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          berning, esquimaux

          base, I think we take the minority votes for granted, I believe many blacks feel the same way.

          •  This is An Excellent Question (0+ / 0-)

            I would hope that part of the 50 state organizing strategy is focused on helping the African American community get more politically involved in (especially) red states.  A heartbreaking NYTSR article in 2004 highlighted an African American community In SC that was largely abandoned by the Dems, until national elections occured.  The new focus on organizing everywhere I am hoping includes these forgotten communities.

            But I would argue that the place to showcase the value of African American voters is with Senators and Congresspeople who can propose and vote on legislation (and oversee the agencies) that might have some real impact on lives.  Granted Dem legislators have little power, but there are things that they can do to show how they would better support the lives of African Americans.

            Ignorance, allied with power, is the most ferocious enemy justice can have. - James Baldwin

            by cassandra m on Tue May 23, 2006 at 01:09:07 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  This is why liberals cannot win (0+ / 0-)

      Bush goes before a "secular" audience, tells 'em what they want to hear, and the fundagelicals forgive him because they know he's a true believer.

      Dean goes before an audience of troglodytes, tones down his oratory, and gets attacked by gay rights advocates.  Apparently they don't trust Dean, despite the time he had to wear a bulletproof vest to sign civil union legislation in VT.  

      This is so incredibly fucking stupid, for the gay rights wing to eat their own like this.  When I read about this, I wondered whether the gay rights advocates really want gay rights at all.  Questioning Dean's commitment to gay rights?  It's totally absurd!

      If the gay rights wing of the Democratic party cannot accept the fact that Democrats must tone down the gay rights rhetoric in front of knuckle-dragging end-timers, then perhaps Democrats should stop supporting gay rights.  Because if they are going to be called out like this, it will only sabotage their electoral chances.  Better to win than to stay pure as the driven snow and in permanent minority status.

      "Those who would trade liberty for security deserve neither liberty nor security." ~ Benjamin Franklin

      by Subterranean on Tue May 23, 2006 at 09:03:16 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  There's a difference between toning down rhetoric (0+ / 0-)

        and saying something that's not true.

        I'm all for trying to expand the party's base, but we need to stay true to ourselves while we attempt to do so.  Noting when the party's leader says something that's not true, and criticizing it, is not "eating our own," and I'm sorry to see you imply that it is.  I'm a Democrat, and my legitimate criticisms of Howard Dean when he says something that's incorrect are not going to harm the party -- they're going to strengthen it.   We're stronger when we have room for honest internal debate.

        By the way, Subterranean, calling the people we're reaching out to troglodytes is insulting, and isn't going to help.  That's far worse than questioning a misstatement of our platform.

  •  Poll, what poll? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TexDem

    We don' need no steenkin poll.

    No seriously, What poll?

    RULE OF LAW. That's all the reason you need to oppose Republicans.

    by nightsweat on Tue May 23, 2006 at 08:07:47 AM PDT

  •  this one isn't working for me (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TexDem

    I click, I get nothing.

  •  Cut, paste, change the name (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TexDem

    oops.

    What happened to the poll?

  •  where's the poll? (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TexDem, Lashe, Craig Burnham

    i'll be a citizen but my ballot box is missing.  did Diebold set you up for this? :)

    Reality has a liberal bias.

    by m00nchild on Tue May 23, 2006 at 08:09:07 AM PDT

  •  Hell yes. n/t (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TexDem

    The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries.

    by deathsinger on Tue May 23, 2006 at 08:10:00 AM PDT

  •  Dean (17+ / 0-)

    He makes mistakes, sure, but is overall strategy is a good one.

    And damn you, anonymous coward beltway insiders!

    Stop using Jesus as an excuse for being a narrow-minded bigoted asshole.

    by joeesha on Tue May 23, 2006 at 08:10:28 AM PDT

  •  howard is one of the few things (11+ / 0-)

    that's worthwhile in a democratic party full of wusses... (and feingold, of course...)

  •  BREAKING Lloyed Bentsen is dead! (11+ / 0-)

    Lloyd Bentsen, a courtly Texan who represented Texas in Congress for 28 years and served as President Clinton's first treasury secretary, died Tuesday morning, his family said. He was 85.

    Bentsen, also the Democratic 1988 vice presidential nominee, died at his home in Houston, according to the family.

    His distinguished political career took him from the humble beginnings of a county office in the Rio Grande Valley in the 1940s to six years in the U.S. House, 22 in the U.S. Senate and two in the Clinton Cabinet, where he was instrumental in directing the administration's economic policy.

    Thinking globally and acting locally

    by aaraujo on Tue May 23, 2006 at 08:11:18 AM PDT

  •  Howard Dean Is The Best (25+ / 0-)

    Dean came along when the Democratic Party was slinking around doing and saying NOTHING.
    He put the FIRE back in the party.
    Now he is the most articulate, up to date, voice we have.
    Go Howard!

  •  For the most part... (12+ / 0-)

    I may not agree with everything Dean does, but that's okay by me...I'm happy we have some new energy and someone willing to change the way we do business, so to speak.  We need more "Deans" and less of the status quo Dems.

    www.dems4pres.com :: Power Ranking the Presidential Candidates

    by dumbledoresarmy on Tue May 23, 2006 at 08:13:42 AM PDT

  •  Dean was broadsided by the Dems once, (7+ / 0-)

    when his mic was mysteriously isolated as he gave an enthusiastic battle cry, then that mic-isolated battle cry mysteriously turned up all over the MSN with suggestions that he was crazy. The "crazy" suggestion took, and Dean, offering real changes with enthusiasm, was suddenly schlepped aside for the comparatively uninspiring (no offense to the senator) Kerry.

    He was torpedoed. I'd like to suggest to Dems that they don't torpedo Dean and seat some uninspiring MOTRer again - that strategy does not work.

    ::::::::::::::::::::::::::
    More fun than talkin' about Anne Counter's giant Adam's Apple ! [Cue Austin Powers] "It's a MAN, baby!"

    by Cenobyte on Tue May 23, 2006 at 08:15:48 AM PDT

  •  New Category: "Almost" (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    brooklynben, TexDem, berning
    Or am I too much of a perfectionist? Too sentimental about The Good Old Days?

    Where's Will Rogers when you need him?

  •  The Dean pattern: (27+ / 0-)

    Howard says something out of step with CW and is denounced as crazy, radical, naive or some combination of the three.

    Three to six months later, it becomes obvious that Howard was right.

  •  Hey, Kos: On a Scale of One to Ten? (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Viktor, IM, TexDem, barbwire, berning
    Can we get some nuance going?
  •  Keeping his word (35+ / 0-)

    Howard Dean has actually kept his promises to DNC delegates who voted for him for Chair.

    For once, a political leader has actually DELIVERED on what he PROMISED he would do.

    For that, Rahm Emmanuel and other party leaders are whining and wetting the bed.

    aka "Maura in CT", since I've had to relocate to CT this year...

    by Maura in VA on Tue May 23, 2006 at 08:17:42 AM PDT

  •  New Category: "Almost" (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    berning
    Or am I too much of a perfectionist? Too sentimental about The Good Old Days?

    Where's Will Rogers when you need him?

  •  He could phrase things better (5+ / 0-)

    and know the platform better on TV sometimes.

    but overall I'm still a Deaniac and glad he is chair.  I'm glad he is not backing down against the loser/mole class of consultants and pundits.  50 states, 50 state strategy, America's party.

    Check out my lte archive at http://www.livejournal.com/users/tomletters and feel free to use my ideas

    by DemDachshund on Tue May 23, 2006 at 08:18:31 AM PDT

  •  group think (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Aexia, rgdurst, vf2890

    I am surprised that the vote in favor of Dean is so lopsided.  For example, there is an obvious argument against his 50-state strategy.  Optimization requires that you put your resources where they have the highest return.  But anyway, I agree that Democrats focused their resources too narrowly in the past, and should attempt to put more states in play, but there is a lot of room between what the Democrats did before and trying to build the party in Utah.  I think a middle ground would be more sensible.  Also, Dean puts his foot in hs mouth all the time.  I know this won't make me popular around here, but I would expect a little more diversity in people's views, and I am a little put off by the group think.

    •  Short term vs. Long term (13+ / 0-)
      Well, yes, your argument makes sense for winning this election. But what about the next one? And the next one?

      Putting organizers in Utah sows the seeds for victory in 20 years. And then for the next 20 years after that.

      The GOP have been at this for four decades, and we haven't. This is why we're where we're at right now.

      That is why the Dean 50-state strategy is needed.

      ->Even Fox News says Iraq is a civil war <-

      by maxomai on Tue May 23, 2006 at 08:41:45 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  there is a middle ground (0+ / 0-)

        My point is that there is a trade-off between today and tomorrow.  Something between the narrow focus Dems used to have and the 50 state strategy balances the needs of today and 20 years from now.  To devote too many resources to tomorrow and not enough to today would be a mistake just like devoting too many resources to today and not enough to tomorrow as we used to do.

      •  Although the argument could be made (0+ / 0-)

        That 20 years is not long enough for the troglodytes in states like Utah to see the light.

        I support Dean's plan, but it might not be perfect.

        "Those who would trade liberty for security deserve neither liberty nor security." ~ Benjamin Franklin

        by Subterranean on Tue May 23, 2006 at 09:44:50 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  We've had decades of 'optimization' (8+ / 0-)

      And what did we get?  What we got!

      It's time to try something new.

      •  Clearly, we weren't optimizing (0+ / 0-)

        Replacing one bad strategy by another bad strategy is not the solution.

        I hate arguments of the form:  We tried X.  X didn't work.  Therefore let's do Y.  

        What about Z?

        Clearly we were doing something wrong, and I think that people have identified the excessive focus on a small number of swing states as a problem.  But in general when you are doing something wrong, doing the exact opposite is not the solution.  You have to think through your response more carefully.

    •  Compare Dean to what came before (14+ / 0-)

      and suddenly the overwhelming approval will make more sense.

      Dean's actually doing things that involve everybody, instead of the old method of only involving (what were basically) wealthy "investors".

      Under McAuliffe, the DNC was known for completely ignoring many districts, even when they did find a good candidate willing to run. The DNC was also known for ignoring many districts who simply needed help with signs and information for presidential candidates. Talk about just handing districts away to the Republicans...!

      As for the 50 state strategy - I don't think sending 3-4 trained people (and paying their way) to a state like Utah is really costing the party all that much - while it could pay off tremendously. As I understand it, the goal is to send/train and support one person per district (except in states that only have one House seat, the larger ones may get 2-4).

      The vast majority of the support still goes to the more populous areas, BUT at least SOME help and attention is paid to the rest of the country. Before Dean started pushing the 50-state plan, there were several congressional districts that couldn't afford to even keep a phone manned during normal business hours.

      You can't do much to convince people to vote for Democrats if you can't manage to answer the phone or distribute signs, support the candidates, or be a solid presence at "the usual events" such as parades, fairs, and the like with signs, stickers, buttons, etc. You need the national support.

      Even better, the people sent out by the DNC are in frequent communication, so it's MUCH easier to share ideas on what works best in what kinds of districts/areas. They're trained to help the local parties work together to get the most bang for their buck. They're also trained to coordinate and train volunteers, as well as helping the local party get their people more involved in volunteering in the first place.

      In state and local parties (yeah, and higher up), people play power games that screw things up - sadly, that's just the way some people are.  Having these district coordinators from the DNC means that local parties who aren't getting enough support from the state have somewhere to turn.

      It also makes it MUCH easier to have an actual nationwide strategy.

      Most of the attention and funding is still going towards the big vote centers - they aren't being slighted at all.

      Ignorance killed the cat. Curiousity was framed.

      by Lashe on Tue May 23, 2006 at 08:51:03 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  good points (0+ / 0-)

        I agree that to really assess the strategy, we have to look at the numbers to see what is being spent.  If not that much is being spent in Utah, then I'm happy, but by the same token, to the extent that this is true the "50 state strategy" is more window dressing than substance.

        In any event, people are too eager to jump on the 50 state strategy bandwagon without thinking it through.  That's what I meant by group think.

        •  When states have been ignored for a few decades, (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          gmb, saucy monkey, SulaymanF

          sending even a couple of people in to help is a massive improvement!

          I think a lot of people who approve of the 50-state strategy are tired of seeing all the money go to the same few places, and watching as the national party ignores hundreds of state and federal districts.

          We've seen that ultra-tight focus fail over and over again. We've watched as the Republicans did what we used to do - focus on all the states. Republicans have been using our old methos with sickening success.

          When we focused on all the states in the past, we WON. Mind, we can update the method, but at the heart of it is the idea of working on the party everywhere.

          It's time to take OUR method back and get back to WINNING.

          I doubt there's anywhere near as much "groupthink" involved as you seem to suspect.

          Ignorance killed the cat. Curiousity was framed.

          by Lashe on Tue May 23, 2006 at 11:29:35 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I partly agree (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            vf2890

            I agree with you that there has been excessive focus on a few states, as I wrote above.

            As to sending a couple of people to Utah.  Is it a big improvement?  What does it acheive?  And if it is only a couple of people, and almost all the resources are still being spent on the same pivotal states, then it is just window dressing, and there is no real 50 state strategy.  

            Also, there is definitely groupthink going on here, because it is simply not the case that the 50 state strategy is obviously good.  There are pros (long-term party building), and cons (taking resources away from the pivotal states).  Unless you are an expert, a reasonable person should take a more agnostic attitude towards what is a very non-obvious trade-off, but (almost) averyone here seems to be gung-ho for the 50 state strategy.

        •  what the hell makes you think (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          gmb

          people didn't think it through just because you don't understand the wisdom of it?

    •  Don Fowler weighs in (18+ / 0-)

      Former DNC chair Don Fowler just issued a statement about Dean.

      I did not support Howard Dean in his campaign for Chair of the DNC. I supported my son, who also ran. But one thing Governor Dean has done that is absolutely right is his support--financial, organizational, and technological--for state parties. Many of our Party's difficulties during the last three elections have been due to weak state parties.

      Governor Dean, to his great credit, pledged during his campaign for Chair to change this sad state of affairs. He has kept his word and deserves our appreciation--he certainly has mine.

      Read all of it here.

      Don't mourn. Organize.

      by Malacandra on Tue May 23, 2006 at 08:58:42 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  the Democrats have been losing the long-term (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Ed in Montana, mini mum, gmb, SulaymanF

      battles by thinking exactly like this.  Entire states that should be in play have been ignored for decades.  Why is Kansas Republican?  Because Democrats stopped contesting it years and years ago.  The national party has conceded too much ground and has adopted a pathetic strategy of taking the Northeast and West Coast for granted, while trying the chip away Ohio, Missouri, or Florida.  It hasn't been working.  We haven't had a Presidential candidate get more than 50% of the vote since 1976, and Carter only got 50.1% running against a replacement who had pardoned the only President to ever resign.  The fight has to be made everywhere or it's going to fail.  

      And calling this kind of thinking "groupthink" is insulting.  You should learn the difference between being unpopular and being right.

      •  You forget Gore so soon? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        gmb

        Al Gore got more than 50% of the vote.

      •  you may be insluted ... (0+ / 0-)

        ... by the label, groupthink, but to an objective observer it's clearly true.  Everyone agrees that the 50 state strategy is so great, and I can see from the comments that some people have given it a lot of thought, but most people are just reflexively reacting.

        The consultants are EVIL!  Reject their ideas and do the exact OPPOSITE!  That kind of knee-jerk reaction will get you nowhere.

        You don't have to fight the battle EVERYWHERE!  That's clearly an exaggeration.  But, I agree, we ought to expand the playing field.  

        •  wow, you have amazing powers (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          gmb

          to be able to tell who is really behind the 50 state strategy and who is simply having some knee jerk reaction.  Since clearly some of us have thought it through, then what makes you think we haven't ALL thought it through.
          I also don't beleive I have ever seen the consultant called evil...useless, stupid and behind the curve perhaps.  Why set up strawmen?

          •  I do have amazing powers (0+ / 0-)

            Judging from your posts, it seems you haven't thought about it at all.  By contrast, I think Lashe has given it some thought.

            The reason its obvious that not everyone has thought it through is that its clearly not obvious that the 50 state strategy is the right way to go, but everyone agrees that its the right way to go anyway.

    •  a good basic tenet regarding OPTIMIZATION (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      gmb
      It's true no matter what type of system one examines.

      Optimization precludes evolution.

      In politics, optimization creates the kind of slam-dunk safety for the opposition in unsupported districts. Attempts to "manage the math", like Kerry's well-know strategy to win Gore's states plus Ohio, made it much easier for KRove and company to draw a bead and fire with marksman deadliness, despite the fact that Bush was the worst president ever.

      Optimization? Call it what it really is: selling out the future to risk it all on a single roll of the dice.

      BushIsWeak.com ... somebody really ought to register this domain name ...

      by wystler on Tue May 23, 2006 at 10:03:35 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  By optimization I mean optimization ... (0+ / 0-)

        Optimization is, by definition, the best thing to do.

        Clearly, putting all your resources into today, as you claim Gore did, is not optimization; but neither is putting all your resources into tomorrow.  

        If people are arguing that we shouldn't optimize (i.e. do the best thing), I don't want those people on my team.

        •  reeding skuylz (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          gmb

          ... as you claim Gore Kerry did ...

          furthermore, optimization tends to refer to building based on a snapshot, and tends to ignore long view ...

          in engineering parlance, it refers to micromanaging all the bugs out of the machine you now have at the expense of developing a new solution ...

          in this politix2006 example, the case for optimization has been that championed by DTrip and their ilk: do the math, calculate what Dems need to do to take Congress, and pour the resources in ...

          dinosaurs were optimized for their environment ...

          BushIsWeak.com ... somebody really ought to register this domain name ...

          by wystler on Tue May 23, 2006 at 12:13:59 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  group think? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      gmb

      Just because people disagree with you, doesn't mean it's group think.  I also think your assertion that he puts his foot in his mouth all the time is just silly.  He doesn't put his foot in his mouth.  He says what he thinks and he is usually right.

  •  I'll move to the 'not sure' column (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    guyute16, berning, rgdurst

    First off, I was one of Howard Dean's early supporters for President. I was (or thought I was) thrilled with his leadership of the Democratic Party.

    I'm a big supporter of the 50-state strategy, and I also support the "big tent," I'm not any one-issue or two, three, four issue voter.

    But I'm really not happy about the 700 club.

    For now, I've just dropped my support for DFA in protest.

  •  Yikes what an awful performance on (5+ / 0-)

    the Daily Show. O man that stunk.

    ... we now know a lot of things, most of which, we already knew... (-dash888)

    by Tirge Caps on Tue May 23, 2006 at 08:22:08 AM PDT

  •  I wish the man would think more before speaking (0+ / 0-)

    other than that, I highly approve of his performance.

    Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men? Well, come on, doesn't anybody know!?!?

    by Erik the Red on Tue May 23, 2006 at 08:25:51 AM PDT

  •  Dean may not be perfect (10+ / 0-)

    but he's got a lot of energy and he's getting the party organized. I saw a comment about why bother with Utah and my answer is for the same reason we've been bothering in CA in CD-50. You just never know what might happen. There are reasonable people everywhere so let's reach out to them.

  •  Polling by degrees (6+ / 0-)

    I would like to see a poll that has the following choices:

    Strongly Approve
    Approve
    Disapprove
    Strongly Disapprove
    Don't know

  •  need more options (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sj, berning, Lashe

    how about adding a strongly approve and strongly disapprove on either side?

    If there is anything I have learned from Scooby Doo, it is that the only thing to fear is crooked real estate developers.

    by JakeC on Tue May 23, 2006 at 08:28:35 AM PDT

  •  People Powered (14+ / 0-)

    he reminded us how democracy is supposed to work - I will be eternally grateful.

    "listen...do you smell something" -ghostbusters

    by David in Burbank on Tue May 23, 2006 at 08:29:18 AM PDT

  •  I love Dean :) (10+ / 0-)

    He IMO is the future of the Democratic Party; if the "establishment" Dems start to appreciate his vision of the party's future, we could see many successes ahead in future elections.

    And other than his dumb-ass remark on the 700 Club, I think he's been doing a great job of stating what we Dems stand for and what we can do for the everyday Americans.

  •  Dean leads: I like that. (9+ / 0-)

    He doesn't always say what I would like and that seems to be the "pet bitch" by most here;"Hey, why isn't he exactly what I want him to be?"

    Someone who leads isn't going to please everyone all of the time, so get over the minor disappointments. He is doing exactly what he said he was going to do with his fifty state strategy and he appears to be doing a hell of a job in that regard.

    Dean is the best leader we've had in a long time.

  •  poll needs another choice--hell yeah! n/t (6+ / 0-)

    Politics is like driving. To go backward, put it in R. To go forward, put it in D. IMPEACH!

    by TrueBlueMajority on Tue May 23, 2006 at 08:41:24 AM PDT

  •  I also love Dean... (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sexton, gmb, myeye, SulaymanF, Lashe

    ...and I look forward to him serving as Secretary of State in the Gore Administration. Then we'll be able to take the "nuke Iran" option off the table...provided Bush has not already gone on a bombing spree.

  •  I felt I had to vote Disapprove (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    iCaroline, Lashe

    I like Dean alot, but he's got terminal foot in mouth disease.

  •  We need more choices (0+ / 0-)

    We need more choices than a simple approve/disapprove vote. Why not use the system some polls use, with a range of strongly approve, mostly approve, unsure, mostly disapprove, strongly disapprove?

    These are really nuanced questions, as we all do not approve of everything any leader does.  I think this would be more helpful and give a clearer idea of what the DKos community really thinks.

    To go further (if not too far) maybe even a sub-poll on specific aspects of the leaders' performance, such as strategy, public statements, stands on issues, use of money, power, etc.

    A liberal is a man so broadminded he wouldn't take his own side in an argument........Robert Frost

    by mjshep on Tue May 23, 2006 at 08:45:50 AM PDT

    •  really? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      gmb, AmericanRiverCanyon
      would five be enough?

      no, wait, how about seven? or, what the hell, let's have 51 non-linear choices ...

      seriously, tho ...

      at issue - Howard Dean's leadership:

      1. 50 state strategy: notion and execution
      2. public statements
      3. behind the scenes work (based on inference from what we end up seeing)

      tell us why you cannot commit to APPROVE or DISAPPROVE or DON'T KNOW ...

      or tell us that, when asked CHOCOLATE or VANILLA, why you insist on strawberry ...

      BushIsWeak.com ... somebody really ought to register this domain name ...

      by wystler on Tue May 23, 2006 at 10:12:36 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Because (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        wystler

        As I wrote, I think it would give us all a better idea of our opinion of the leaders in question. This applies not only to Dean but to all the leaders polled.

        And five would be enough. After all, many polls do the same thing. Now, was that so hard to understand?

        Besides, I always insist on banana nut fudge.

        A liberal is a man so broadminded he wouldn't take his own side in an argument........Robert Frost

        by mjshep on Tue May 23, 2006 at 10:58:13 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Kos, it may be better to put these (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bree, gmb, pico, Lashe

    leadership poll scale, if possible. Either numerical (-7 to +7, since you have 15 slots), or grades (A+ to F and I, say).

    That way we'd be able to give a grey scale instead of just two options. People can then explain in the comments section why they're downgrading.

    I'd give Howard an A (not A+, due to his 700 club misstep), Reid a C (and not a B+, because of his endorsement of Lieberman, before the primary is over, even though JL hasn't said he'd support Lamont should the latter win the nomination; unacceptable, Sen. Reid), and Nancy a C-, because she needs to whip up party discipline in the house, and she needs to take up voting integrity and reform issues (such as Holt's HR 550) seriously.

    And, thanks for the 2008 fantasy straw poll!

  •  He's doing great and delivery has improved (0+ / 0-)

    but would be more effective if messaging were coordinated. But how can he change DLC centri$ts?
    Yeah- he messed up big time on 700 Club. Should have taken Christ's position since He was a Progressive.

    It's time to be a Democrat!

    by annefrank on Tue May 23, 2006 at 08:53:46 AM PDT

  •  If I was a Republican... (1+ / 3-)
    Recommended by:
    jlove1982
    Hidden by:
    Ed in Montana, mini mum, beemer

    I'd do anything to have the DNC keep Dean on for as long as possible.

  •  Can we all say Doctor? (7+ / 0-)

    The good doctor should always be referred to using the title Dr. Not only has he earned it but, as I have maintained since before he became chairman, healthcare is the most important issue for vast swaths of voters. Reminding everyone of the Democratic leadership's qualifications must be a good thing.

  •  At least with Dean, we have a known fighter (6+ / 0-)

    He gets my approval 100%. And his attention to state parties is a major plus for me.

  •  I voted don't know. (0+ / 0-)

    I wish we had a better idea of where the money was going besides "50-state project."  I wholeheartedly support the 50-state project, but I wish we knew how efficiently the money was being spent on the 50-state project.

    Visit my blog Penndit. Media, politics, campaigns, and political communications.

    by Newsie8200 on Tue May 23, 2006 at 09:21:19 AM PDT

    •  Not sure how we'd even define that (0+ / 0-)

      Hopefully he's hiring competent individuals in every state to fundraise locally.

    •  The 50 State Strategy....... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      gmb

      A 50 State Strategy

      How Democrats can and will win in every state, every county, and every precinct.

      The Democratic Party is committed to winning elections at every level in every region of the country, and we're getting started right now with a massive effort to fund organizers on the ground in every state.

      The ultimate goal? An active, effective group of Democrats organized in every single precinct in the country. Here's what we're doing to get there:

        1. The Democratic Party is hiring organizers chosen by the state parties in every state -- experienced local activists who know their communities.
        2. We bring those organizers together for summits where they can learn from each other the best practices for getting organized to win elections.
        3. Armed with the knowledge they've shared with each other, Democratic organizers return to the states and recruit and train leaders at the local level.
        4. Those local leaders recruit more leaders and volunteers until every single precinct in their area has a trained, effective organization of Democrats dedicated to winning votes for Democrats.

      If the people lead, the leaders will follow.

      by Mz Kleen on Tue May 23, 2006 at 02:33:23 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  That doesn't tell me how efficiently (0+ / 0-)

        the money is being spent.

        I know the DNC paid for voter lists, but how good are those voter lists? Did they get a fair price for them? What's the oversight re: the 50 state strategy?

        Small dollar donations can add up, but it also costs a lot to get all those donations. Are we broadening our donor base?

        I wish we had something more concrete.

        Visit my blog Penndit. Media, politics, campaigns, and political communications.

        by Newsie8200 on Tue May 23, 2006 at 06:32:08 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Why the 700 club? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Hominid Engels

    What's the point of going on the 700 club?  He is reaching out to people who will never vote for the things we believe in as progressives.  Why give nut job Robertson any more publicity?  I think he needs to think before he speaks as he just pissed off a vital link in the proegressive movement.

    •  Not necessarily true (3+ / 0-)

      Any 50 state strategy is going to have to involve stepping away from the choir and persuading others.  700 club watchers are working class primarily, and if you can't get through to the present generation, their kids might be watching if nothing else.

    •  Because (6+ / 0-)

      He is reaching out to people who will never vote for the things we believe in as progressives.

      Your logic is flawed.  Christian isn't synonymous with conservative.  And he wasn't talking to Robertson, per se.  He was talking to Robertson's viewers and directly challenging their assumptions about Democrats and the Democratic Party.

      As Dean said, you have to govern all 50 states.

      Liberal: "I still think it's a respectable word. Its root is "liber," the Latin word for "free," and isn't that what we are all about?"--Mary McGrory

      by mini mum on Tue May 23, 2006 at 09:44:29 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  not true really (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      gmb

      there are people who watch the 700 club who are very reachable.
      He stated Kerry's position as the party position during the campaign, which is essentially what the party position is (whatever the pres candidate has said)The whole incident has been blown up by some people with a personal aggenda, friends of the guy who was let go is my guess.

      •  Taking it Personally (0+ / 0-)

        I guess I'm one of the people who took Howard's pandering remarks very personally.

        My only agenda is not being used as a scapegoat to garner votes from those who don't have my best interest at heart in the first place.

        As to some guy who was let go, I don't know him and don't get involved in others' personnel issues.

        *** If I can't dance, it's not my revolution. *** *** Se mi ne rajtas danci, la revolucio ne estas la mia. *** - Emma Goldman -

        by Stechjo on Tue May 23, 2006 at 04:30:30 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  What if he were to say... (0+ / 0-)

      "Look at what Republicans did to student loans for your children and grandchildren?  Now, when your child graduates from college, she is going to be burdened by $50,000 in debt.  Republicans, in order to pay for this ill-conceived loans, are burdening your children with ever increasing interest rates.  Your children are going to be paying for this for years, and won't be able to get married as soon as they hoped and will have to put off having children.  The Republican party is not the party of families.  They are the party against family values."?

      January 20. 2009 cannot come soon enough.

      by Crisis Corps Volunteer on Tue May 23, 2006 at 06:17:00 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Lemming run (0+ / 0-)

    I'm one of the 8% that disapproves...guess everyone thinks his grating style can actually win swing voters?

    Free your mind and your a** will follow...the kingdom of heaven is within

    by EminemsRevenge on Tue May 23, 2006 at 09:34:58 AM PDT

  •  Haven't read the comments yet (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    AmericanRiverCanyon

    But I'd be willing to be that the majority of disapproval here is coming from his left rather than his right.

  •  I'm disappointed... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    berning

    ...to find no shades of gray in this poll.  I approve of much of Dean's work, I approve of his courage, and and I approve of the 50-state strategy.  But I am far too old and jaded for hero worship. Dean has strengths, but he has at least one serious weakness: he speaks before he thinks. I understand how much difficulty he has controlling his tongue because I can have much the same problem.  The difference is that he is making a career in politics and I am not.  I speak only for myself; when he speaks, he speaks for me.  He owes it to those he represents to think before he opens his mouth, and he seems incapable of doing that.  In response to those who would counter that frequent verbal gaffes are the price of political authenticity, I submit three names: Martin Luther King, Robert Kennedy and Franklin Roosevelt.  

    •  huh (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      gmb

      so how does the word APPROVE necessarily equate to HERO WORSHIP?

      sounds like you're tossing between APPROVE and DON'T KNOW ... go ahead, Prufrock - eat that peach ...

      BushIsWeak.com ... somebody really ought to register this domain name ...

      by wystler on Tue May 23, 2006 at 10:15:17 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Choices (0+ / 0-)

        Unlike Prufrock, I do not lack the moral courage to take a stand.  Anyone who lacks moral courage would not have hazarded negative comments about Howard Dean on this site.  Nor am I caught between APPROVE and DON'T KNOW.  I do know.  I simply wish we had been given the opportunity to choose SOMEWHERE IN BETWEEN.

  •  Go Back to the Doctor's Office, Chairman Dean (0+ / 0-)

    Am I the only reader of the Daily Kos who hasn't deluded himself about Howard Dean?  Dean's actions might be suited for rural Vermont, but here in Chicago, it's clear Dean is out of touch with real Democrats.

    To make the biggest hypocrite on the Chicago City Council (a body that has the dubious distinction of having seen enough of its members sent to federal prison over the past third of a century to constitute a quorum), my Aldercrook Joe Moore (49th) the chairman of the National Democratic Municipal Officials Conference is insane enough.  To have Moore also serve on the Executive Committee of the Democratic National Committee is even worse.

    What does Dr. Dean expect Moore to bring into Dean's vision of reform anyway?  How to tie up all of your campaign opponents with petition challenges (as Moore did the last two elections)?  How to create your own "rotten borough" by not doing much of anything in terms of voter registration in his ward for years (a ward that features Loyola University and its students, as many as 12 nursing homes and a larger percentage of apartment dwellers than any other Chicago ward),since it's easier to bamboozle a smaller electorate than a larger one?  How to take "campaign donations" from owners of substandard buildings the same day your aides urge a local judge to give the slumlord a little more time to secure his building from gangbangers and riff-raff?

    If the answers to those questions is "YES" then Dr. Dean has his man.  Unfortunately, if the answer to those questions is "YES" then I don't have a Democratic Party.  As it is, if the General Election were held today, I would only be casting votes for two statewide Democrats (Attorney General Lisa Madigan and Comptroller Dan Hynes) out of six, and only two countywide Democrats (Treasurer Maria Pappas and Assessor Jim Houlihan) out of five.  This despite my loathing of the Bush administration and what it stands for.

    RANDALL SHERMAN
    Secretary/Treasurer, Illinois Committee for Honest Government
    Chicago

    •  please explain more (0+ / 0-)

      I have no idea what you're talking about.  How does
      this relate to Dean?  Who is Moore, why should I care?

    •  Real Democrats (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      gmb

      Dean is out of touch with real Democrats?  That's news to me.  Your beef with Dean is Dean making some guy I haven't heard of and probably Dean hadn't heard of either chairman of some committee I haven't heard of, and making allegations against him that you obviously have heard, which don't make a lot of sense to me. If this guy is not registering enough voters, why don't you register them?

      You are going to vote for two statewide and two countywide Democrats, out of many more?  You would rather have moral superiority than a winner.

      Why does my party have the whiners and the quitters?  I wished the Republicans whined and quit this much, then, we would have cheap gas, free college, free health care, no Iraq war, no national debt, a cleaner environment, a stop to global warming, and wouldn't be having this coversation on Daily Kos.

      Yet when Dean and I want to win, you say we would be out of touch with real Democrats?

      In the words of Bartcop- "I'm going to vote Democrat in 2008- how will you be voting?"

  •  i look at these comments and ask 'Huh?' (11+ / 0-)

    As a middle aged mother who NEVER was involved, interested or even approached by my party ... Because of Dr. Dean I am 1.  active in my local DEC

    1.  active in my local DFA
    1.  knocking on the doors of my neighbors and get this - either I remember them or they remember me at their door
    1.  hosting  a house party focussing on my precinct

    Dr. Dean has EMPOWERED ME yeah ME a nondescript middle aged woman who now supports the DNC monthly AND supports my local candidates - even if they're not in my district because I know who they are, who their opponents are and I know where they stand. Florida may be a "red" state - but its a changing because like me, there are a lot more of us "little folks, the ones ignored by our party" who have also been empowered to make ourselves heard.

    Thank you Dr. Dean - you have made me feel like the song ... "I am woman, hear me ROAR!"

  •  Your poll (0+ / 0-)

    is set up to discriminate among the choices well but doing that doesn't pick up the nuance.

    I on balance think that Dean is doing ok, esp when compared to what was there before, but I am not completely satisfied and don't know if some of that is not him but the resistance to change within the party.  I donot think that there has been significant change in overall tone, which remains too timid and with poor support of those who have tried to lead by example such as Feingold and Murtha.  I'm sure that there is only so much Dean can do but he picked the role of the leader in the tent pissing out so that limits him.

    I would like to see a much more aggressively vocal opposition and more vision from all of them.  Dean did not do himself or the Democrats proud in his recent appearance on the 700 Club.  If he can't control the pander button, he shouldn't go on those shows.  

    So my vote is ok ---though there is PLENTY of room for improvement.

    ..Don't ask "where are the leaders. WE are the leaders!

    by SwimmertoFreedom06 on Tue May 23, 2006 at 11:17:51 AM PDT

  •  Why do some jump all over McCain for going... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    vf2890

    to liberty U, and not jump all over Dean for going on the 700 club and pandering to the right?

    At least McCain is a fucking republican, what is Dean's excuse?

  •  Why is it? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    gmb

    That none of these approval ratings surprise me?  I actually approve of Pelosi and disapprove of Reid.  But I knew that the results would be the opposite.  Dean is not perfect and he's had his share of screwups but honestly he's doing a good job and I'm glad to see that near 90% of Kossacks agree.  And it's even more impressive since right now there are 7700 votes at least.  For Pelosi and Reid, there are far fewer.  Go Dean!

  •  Dean validated our call for a more grassroots (0+ / 0-)

    style of campaigning.  

    We have to reintroduce ourselves to the American people to show them we are not what the Christian Right and the Corporatist say we are.

    We are not a bunch of Homosexual devil worshipers as my aunt called us.  Well, some are, but they are in the minority.  

    I'd write more but I'm late for my appointment with Satan.  He likes being blown   around tea time. If he isn't serviced he gets cranky.

    Anyway....

    We will not concede one race. We will fight in all 50 states.  Thank you Howard Dean.

    http://homepage.mac.com/alfredo_tomato/Wheatpaste.html

    by alfredo on Tue May 23, 2006 at 11:53:01 AM PDT

  •  50 State Strategy (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    gmb, clcaev

    He's had his gaffes, particularly on gay marriage, which is dear to me, since I'm gay and got married in Canada, but the 50 State Strategy that he's pushed, even against the DNC establishment makes him the best we've had in a generation.  

  •  50 state plan is genius... (3+ / 0-)

    Democrats can't have a broad solid base by making blue states navy blue.  The red states need (and most importantly WANT) new ideas that help their families and communities.  I understand Utah (an example) won't be blue anytime soon, but there's no reason it shouldn't have a Democratic congressman, governor, or assemblyman.

    As the leader of the party nationwide, Dean has to focus on local races as much as congressional races.  Therefore, he must take and HAS TAKEN a different path than what Schumer and the establishment prefer.  

    "These guys are the biggest bunch of lying crooks I have ever seen."

    by NyLib05 on Tue May 23, 2006 at 12:49:02 PM PDT

  •  KOS Dean Poll democrats 87% yes ??? posters 8% (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    AmericanRiverCanyon

    All you ankle biters out there, keep  carping and whining, and biting. We will step over you and win in spite of you. Now go in the corner, blog furiously while sucking your thumbs and trying to have a "perfect " Chairman and a "perfect" identity of your interests and the Democratic Party agenda, and everything else that's wrong being his fault.

    When Howard Dean is through, he will be known as Mr. Democrat.  Easily the classiest and best thing to happen in the Democratic Party since Truman and Roosevelt.

    Now come on, start screaming, crying and choking on that statement.

    Preferably all at the same time!

    8-1 for Dr. Dean.  Hari kari time for the repubs,DLC, Lieberman et al.  I can hardly wait.

  •  what? (0+ / 0-)

    no category for not only yes, but fuck yes sprinkled with chocolate?

    seriously, the only issues i have with dean at this point are the weirdnesses with the gay outreach thing.  s.

    the best lack all conviction while the worst are full of passionate intensity --w.b.yeats the second coming

    by synth on Tue May 23, 2006 at 01:14:31 PM PDT

  •  Howard Dean is doing (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    gmb, AmericanRiverCanyon

    an excellent job at the DNC.  He is doing what needs to be done to build up our party structure, one county committee at a time.  

    This kind of work should have been done long ago by Terry McAuliffe.  What exactly was he doing anyway during his term at the DNC?

    Howard Dean is the keynote speaker at the National Stonewall Dems Conference in Pittsburgh in 2 weeks.  I can't wait to see and hear him.

    If the people lead, the leaders will follow.

    by Mz Kleen on Tue May 23, 2006 at 02:27:58 PM PDT

  •  that's pretty dad-blatted impressive (0+ / 0-)

    10,000 votes in 8 hours -

    It's not a sacrifice to pay more in taxes so our brave boys have what they need, it's a privilege. FDR

    by mississippi scott on Tue May 23, 2006 at 03:23:24 PM PDT

  •  11,000 in less 9 hours (0+ / 0-)

    How about a poll on who is coming to yearlykos?

    Stop Corporate Influence; buy DEMOCRACY BONDS!!! http://www.democrats.org/democracybonds.html

    by timber on Tue May 23, 2006 at 03:40:31 PM PDT

  •  we (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    gmb

    need to start getting behind him and donating whatever we can.  The biggest gripe against Dean is that he can't raise money and that his 50 state strategy is draining resources.  Bloggers need to step up to the plate for Dean and ensure that his reign as DNC Chairman is successful.  If not, expect the same DC-insider, loser, to take over soon.

  •  10K (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    gmb

    I was the 10,000th vote for Howard Dean.

    Yeah, baby!

    Dean deserves massive support for his forward looking plan and his determination to carry it out.  And you know what, he's getting it.

    Go, Howard, GO!

    Rahm, I hope you're listening.

  •  Howard Dean. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    gmb

    Because he has a pair.

  •  I put don't know (0+ / 0-)

    Because my feelings aren't relevant. If we pick up seats I approve, if we don't I don't. Until then, I support my chair, but I'm not of either opinion.

    My blog The Washington State Political Report.

    by Carl Ballard on Tue May 23, 2006 at 05:50:47 PM PDT

  •  10,000+ approve -- 1000+ disaprove (0+ / 0-)

    Now we have some idea of the percentage of GOPers we have working the site. Today, about 10%.

    When NSA employees are spending their days spying on Americans, what is it they should actually be doing, and what is slipping by because they aren't?

    by MuldraughTim on Tue May 23, 2006 at 05:57:30 PM PDT

  •  Have any of you heard of delayed gratification? (0+ / 0-)

    American democracy is under attack...If the GAYS and the RELIGIOUS, and the BLACK, and the BROWN, and the Hillary Haters and all you other special interest folks don't SHUT THE FUCK UP about your pet peeves and CONCENTRATE ON THE BIG PROBLEM AT HAND, we may never again have the chance to correct YOUR particular problem because we are in the process of losing the very freedoms you wish to expand. With less freedom we will never be free to be what we want. So STOP the whining NOW and work with the Party, no matter what you think the Dems are doing wrong, or lose your chance forever!!!
    What many DEMS are doing is sliding down a muddy hill toward a bottomless pit, toward their own DEATHS, complaining all the while that they didn't want to get their clothes dirty.  

    When NSA employees are spending their days spying on Americans, what is it they should actually be doing, and what is slipping by because they aren't?

    by MuldraughTim on Tue May 23, 2006 at 06:19:51 PM PDT

  •  my 50 job strategy (0+ / 0-)

    I tried to become rich and successful by working at a single job.  That didn't work.  So now I will get 50 jobs!  In fact, I will apply for every job and work all the time!

    Don't tell me my plan is stupid; I already tried it the normal way with one job.  That didn't work.  So now I will get 50 jobs!

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