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I've been asked by several people to post my keynote address. So here it is in the extended body.

More importantly (to me, anyway), I need some quick and dirty advice. I am moderating a panel discussion tomorrow titled "Meta Kos". That's pretty much the extent of guidance I have to work with.

So if you went to a panel on meta Kos, what would you want to hear about? The panel features Hunter, SusanG and Chris Bowers, so a pretty cool crowd to talk meta. Help me set the agenda.

KEYNOTE ADDRESS as prepared
by Markos Moulitsas
6.9.06

Hi, my name is Markos Moulitsas. I run a site called Daily Kos.

It's one thing to talk about people-powered politics. It's another to see it in action.

And these have been heady days for the people-powered movement.

We're only four years old, from the early days when bloggers like Atrios and Jerome Armstrong at MyDD inspired bloggers like me and countless others to stop railing at Fox News and our so-called-"liberal" pundits, and start publishing those rants on the web.

And we've come a long way since then.

We were born in 2002, and sort of gingerly set out into this brave new world. None of us expected to be more than a lonely voice shouting into the wilderness. But liberal blogs grew rapidly, proving there was a desperate need for strong progressive voices in this country. That was 2002.

2003 was the year of Howard Dean, where an unknown governor from a small, remote, and usually forgotten state was propelled to front-runner status on the strength of netroots activism.  

2004 ... well, let's forget 2004.

In 2005, we helped Dean become DNC chairman, and we helped Paul Hackett prove that a strong, unapologetic, progressive voice could compete in the deepest red districts.

And now it's 2006, and it looks like we've arrived.

Look at this conference! It's the epitome of people-power. It was organized by volunteers, without impetus from a traditional "leader". We now have the ability to support leaders wherever they may be. Leaders that would never have a chance in the traditional world of establishment politics or media. Like Gina Cooper, who was a one-woman force of nature in making this conference happen.

Who was Gina Cooper? A former teacher from Tennessee? And how did that make her qualified to plan something of this magnitude?

Of course it didn't. No more so than I was "qualified" to write about politics.

No more so than an organic farmer named Jon Tester from nowhere Montana is "qualified" to be a United States Senator.

But people-power is a wonderful thing. Everyone can be a leader. Everyone can be a strong voice. Everyone can make a difference. There has been far too much talent, far too much passion, far too much intelligence in this country marginalized by the establishment currently stinking up Washington D.C.

And now, that talent has an outlet. It can no longer be marginalized.

And so we have YearlyKos thanks to the efforts of Gina and her incredible army of volunteers. Gina where are you? And all the YearlyKos volunteers, please stand up and be recognized.

And look at each other. Look left and right. There have been so many efforts to marginalize us by the media and political elite because we had the temerity to feel passionate about politics. How dare us riff raff demand a voice in our democracy?

So they marginalize us. They say we're extremists. We're politically naïve. We're young.

It's great that so much of the DC political press is here, since now they have to make sense of all the gray hairs in the audience. The average age of a Daily Kos reader is 45. We're not that young. Young at heart, perhaps, but we've lived. Some of us are newer to politics than others, but we have a shared body of experience that is mind-boggling.

Unlike the out-of-touch establishment in D.C., we actually know what it's like to live day-to-day in George Bush's America. Chris Matthews may say that only the kooks don't like George W. Bush, but we, like the rest of the country, know better.

We come from every corner of this nation. We are blue collar and white collar. We are liberal, moderate, and conservative Democrats.

The blogosphere may be the only place where people from all corners of the party's ideological spectrum can get together and fight over the details, before we come together on Election Day to fight for our Big Tent Party.

Popular movements are rarely as practical as ours.

There's no doubt we're turning the political world upside down. Jon Tester won his Montana Senate primary against a well-heeled, well-connected, well-known DLC rising star John Morrison.

Despite having half the money Morrison did, the race wasn't even close.

And Jon Tester will beat Conrad Burns this November.

Just today we get news of a new poll out of Connecticut. A month ago, a Quinnipiac University had the Senate Democratic race at 65 percent Joe Lieberman, 19 percent Ned Lamont.

Today's poll? Lieberman's lead has shrunk to 55-40 amongst likely Democratic primary voters.

Lieberman is going to lose.

And the media. Let's not forget the media.

We can now choose amongst ourselves what information to consume. The old media are no longer the gate keepers.

How many of you remember Stephen Colbert's speech at the White House Correspondents dinner?

How many of you actually saw it live?
While some may call you "losers", I call you "visionaries". You were there! You were there to see Colbert say, live,

"The press secretary announces those decisions, and you people of the press type those decisions down. Make, announce, type. Just put 'em through a spell check and go home. Get to know your family again. Make love to your wife. Write that novel you got kicking around in your head. You know, the one about the intrepid Washington reporter with the courage to stand up to the administration. You know - fiction!"

The White House press corps didn't think that was funny. The same people who a year ago couldn't stop laughing at Bush's jokes about missing weapons of mass destructions scrubbed all references to Colbert in their writeups of that evening's events.

In the past, Colbert's viciously ironic remarks would've been scrubbed from the record. But this is the age of people-powered media.

The event was immediately posted all over the web. On the following Sunday and Monday, there were 3 million downloads from YouTube. 300,000 downloads from Crooks and Liars. The C-SPAN site was down Sunday morning as I tried to access the video. And when it was posted on iTunes, it quickly became the #1 album on the site.

The DC media elite were outraged.

Richard Cohen wrote a pathetic column in the Washington Post, and I wish I was making this up or exaggerating,  literally telling us that his elementary school teacher used to say he was funny, so he knew funny, and thus Stephen Colbert wasn't funny.

And in that alternative reality in DC, Colbert probably wasn't funny. It's like opposite day in Washington. There is no global warming! Tax cuts shrink the deficit! Republicans are for smaller government! Hillary and Bill's sex life is relevant to the fate of the nation!

Telling the truth, if the truth hurts, is a "gaffe". So you can't say the obvious - things like 'capturing Saddam will not make us safer' - because reality and Washington D.C. do not mix.

And that's why we're crashing the gate. That's why people-power is taking the nation by storm.

Because the media elite failed us. The political elite - from both parties - failed us. Republicans because they can't govern, and Democrats because they can't get elected. Our leaders failed us. Our issue groups failed us.

So now it's our turn.

It's our turn to inject some good ol' fashioned common sense into Washington D.C. It's our responsibility to demand accountability and reform from the Democratic Party and allied organizations that claim to represent us.

And if they refuse to reform, if they refuse to be more accountable, if they refuse to join this people-powered movement as it seeks to move our country forward ... well then, they'll be relegated to the dustbin of history.

Technology allows each and every one of us to be a leader, and allows us to support our new leaders wherever they may emerge.  

This is our moment. We have to take hold of it and ride it to victory.

And we will.

Originally posted to Daily Kos on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 01:11 AM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Wonderful! (11+ / 0-)

    I have goose pimples. Of course, it's colder in Indiana tonight than in Vegas, I'm sure ... but your words warmed my heart, and reinvigorated my spirit. Onward and upward!

    Why do you have to be a nonconformist like everybody else? - James Thurber

    by JuliaAnn on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 01:07:05 AM PDT

    •  How should DailyKos deal with its own injustices? (4+ / 0-)

      I wish I could be there, too. Since I can't I'll ask my question here and perhaps someone can read it out loud at the event.

      Poll: How should DailyKos deal with its own unjust acts?

      On Monday, I posted the poll above as part of Why was Chris Floyd banned -- and what can be done about it?. I looked into this further during the week and I am convinced that whoever banned Chris Floyd made a mistake that should be corrected. He did not knowingly post double diaries nor did he engage in "sock puppetry." When he was informed of the double diary problem he couldn't delete it because he had already been banned.

      As you'll see I wrote to Kos about this before posting the diary and received a dimissive and insulting reply, to which I answered: "Fix the problem, schmuck. Don't run a creepy number on the very concerned ally who is telling you that you are wrong."

      Read the diary to see what it was all about. Suffice it to say that it brought out all of the worst characteristics of DailyKos but also a number of very thoughtful replies, some disagreeing, others agreeing that the issues I raised about democracy on DailyKos needed to be addressed.

      It seems that most of the 95 people who responded to my poll also agreed. So did 20 of the 21 people who rated my comment: Jules Siegel, troll or concerned Kossack?(20+ / 1-) The diary was recommended by the following subscribers: claude, sen bob, Maryscott OConnor, genethefiend, litho, RabidNation, therealcervantes, ybruti, drewvsea, isinp, farleftcoast, saralee, stormkite, Annalize5, EMRosa, Doh, Wayneman, poco, tonydimarzio, cRedd, BalkanID, goinsouth, AngelaG.

      So I'm not alone on this. More than that, I think it is an issue and a problem that is negatively affecting the general image of DailyKos and Kos himself in the outside world, especially among Democrats. What is this site all about? Is it only about winning or is it mainly about bringing democracy to the Democratic Party in order to elect Democrats?

      If it's only about winning, than why not just find some other party to use as a vehicle to power? If it's about democracy, Mr. Moulitsas, sir, how about answering the question I posed in my letter to you instead of asserting your macho right to do as you please?

      I'm not an Andrea Dworkin fan nor am I sympathetic to NOW-style feminism, but I heartily endorse this comment in an interview in New Statesman & Society:

      Michael Moorcock: What do you think about the current shift to the right in US politics?

      Andrea Dworkin: Here, in blaming and shaming the oppressed, the powerless, the left colludes with the right. There's no reason to look to the left for justice, so people look to the right for order.

      newsroom-l.net News and issues for journalists.

      by Jules Siegel on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 06:19:38 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I'm not a Dworkin fan either, but (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        vmibran

        that's a hell of a quote.  Sums things up very thoroughly.

        •  You'll also appreciate this one: (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Black Max

          "All revolutions end in the substitution of new masters."  --Carlos Fuentes.

          I believe it's from The Death of Artermio Cruz, but I haven't been able to track it down. Here in Mexico, we really understand that one, but even here few people appreciate the fact the Mexican Revolution is the only one in modern history to have turned power over to the opposition peacefully and democratically.

          I've tried to find another but have not been successful. The American Revolution did not turn power over to the opposition, although one might argue that the Republicans are direct descendents of the Tories.

          newsroom-l.net News and issues for journalists.

          by Jules Siegel on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 06:38:15 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Andrea Dworkin was an imperfect visionary (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Black Max
          Hello Folks,

          My guess is that most people who insult Andrea Dworkin haven't read her work.
          She had one of the most eloquent voices against male violence I've ever heard. It saddens me that so many demonize her, and reduce her decades of activism to caricature and worse.

          As the editor of Peacework Magazine, I edited a special issue of the magazine devoted to critically celebrating her legacy. As I wrote in my editorial, "Andrea Dworkin loved women enough to demand safety for every woman, and loved men enough to insist that we are capable of confronting and ending men's violence."

          If nothing else, please read Andrea Dworkin in her own words, starting with what I regard as one of the best speeches of the 20th century, excerpted in Peacework as, "I Want a 24 Hour Truce During Which There Is No Rape" or, even better, read the entire speech at Nikki Craft's Andrea Dworkin archive site.

          For a critically appreciative obituary, please see Honoring A Sister by the co-editor of Peacework, Sara Burke.

          In Peace,

      •  Jules - start your own blog (6+ / 0-)

        Thanks for sharing your concerns.  If you want to have your own say, then start your own blog.  Kos started this forum; and it is what it is.  If you want "fairness" (whatever you think that is) then do your own thing.  The Internet is the ultimate communications leveler and nobody is stopping you from having your say.

        Now regarding DKos - it IS about winning.  You can get fairness (or at least a better hearing) once we get our candidates running Congress.  

        •  A brilliant answer. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          rationalist

          I don't like the blog format, but I do administer newsroom-l, an email discussion list for journalists.

          So no one is allowed to question what happens here on DailyKos? Fairness is not a matter of concern for its subscribers? But it is a matter of concern for government?

          Come on.

          newsroom-l.net News and issues for journalists.

          by Jules Siegel on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 06:51:42 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  You can question (11+ / 0-)

            But when you start talking about the "stalinist" behavior on the site, you become ridiculous, and your concerns get the dismissive treatment they deserve.

            •  So many may have some good points (0+ / 0-)

              but then go and fire-bomb their own arguments by letting their emotions step in front of them.  "Stalinist" "Fascist" etc comments.  We can talk about these issues, but no one want to talk to the guy on the street corner yelling profanities through an empty toilet-paper roll.

              •  No, they just elect them as republicans (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                mataliandy

                /snark

                "I will make a bargain with the Republicans. If they will stop telling lies about Democrats, we will stop telling the truth about them." -- Adlai Stevenson

                by Scientician on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 07:47:45 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  'Profanities through an empty toilet-paper roll'? (0+ / 0-)

                What a stupid and insulting thing to say.

                My letter to Kos was entirely unemotional. I have no emotional feelings about this site or Markos. I do feel that it can be a useful medium in the general effort to reverse the Republican domination of American politics.

                I see some very negative tendencies emerging here and I feel that they should be corrected. And, yes, I do feel that they resemble the tactics of the Stalinists. I enlarge on that in my reply to Kos further down. If you think that only the right indulges in abusive behavior to suppress dissent, you are very, very naïve.

                The fact that you try to dismiss me by resorting to such a nasty metaphor proves my point.

                That's exactly what the Stalinists did. They ridiculed anyone who made a serious and important challenger, the more significant the dissent, the more outlandish the ridicule.

                newsroom-l.net News and issues for journalists.

                by Jules Siegel on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 12:21:20 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I'm afraid I disagree (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  mataliandy, bobbobgirl

                  I read through your partial quote in response to Markos and think that you are mistaken in how unemotional you were in that quote.

                  I see words like "nasty clubbisness", "bizarre", "epidemic of fawning", and "distateful neo-Stalinist discipline tendencies" and see a lot of emotion there.

                  And I see quotes like this:

                  Until that day, enjoy yourself. But don't hand me a faceful of crap and tell me its macaroni, kid.

                  There's an awful lot of emotion there, none of it positive or likely to get the kind of results that you're looking for.

                  You might have a good message, but your delivery of it is getting in the way. Not having been involved in any of the history of this topic, I can't say which of the two is the case. As an objective viewer of what you say in this diary, though, it appears to me that you are extremely worked up about this topic and are losing your argument as a result. That's too bad, really.

                  "We must love one another or die." - W. H. Auden

                  by marathon on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 01:48:15 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Extremely worked up? (0+ / 0-)

                    I'm not even plain worked up. I am, at best, mildly interested. I just happen to be a professional journalist well-known for his vehement style. That's how I write.

                    I see words like "nasty clubbisness", "bizarre", "epidemic of fawning", and "distateful neo-Stalinist discipline tendencies" and see a lot of emotion there.

                    Life is funny that way. I just see very plain language describing the way people act around here.

                    And I see quotes like this:

                    Until that day, enjoy yourself. But don't hand me a faceful of crap and tell me its macaroni, kid.

                    Actually, I was being polite. I wanted to say "faceful of shit" but I decided that it didn't rise to that level, and so I decided to use the less pejorative "crap," although "self-serving adolescent issue avoidance behavior" probably would have fit better.

                    Markos never addressed any of the issues that I raised in my letter. Neither has anyone who has replied to this comment -- unless I'm missing something. Here's the question: Markos (or one of the other high mucky-mucks) makes a mistake and commits an injustice against a subscriber. How should that be handled?

                    No responses, yet.

                    Meanwhile, see this for a complete remedy to the very painful personal problem that causes you to post comments such as the one above.

                    Please do not reply or troll-rate me until you do this. If you do, I will report you to the newly instituted troll-rating abuse patrol, using my IPS tracking spyware system to prove that you failed to follow my instructions.

                    newsroom-l.net News and issues for journalists.

                    by Jules Siegel on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 02:28:09 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Subscriber? (0+ / 0-)

                      "Subscriber" actually has meaning on this site. It means someone who has paid a fee to avoid viewing ads. Do you mean ordinary user?

                      Anyhow, I am sure you are familiar with the concept of private property. Owners of private property (such as a home or a blog) are free to permit or deny entry to whomever they so wish. The law recognizes no redress for those denied entry. There is no such thing as a cognizable "injustice" which can committed against those denied entry.

                      If you have a beef with that, then your beef is with common-law property rights, not with Markos, or how he runs DailyKos.

                      Perhaps in a better world, there would be redress for denial of entry on to private property. But there isn't in this one. I'd also say that this is an area of the law that is actually quite in sync with morality - little, if any, opprobrium attaches to those who deny entry to private property.

                      •  Legal issues? Please stop. (0+ / 0-)

                        I'm a bit old-fashioned, so I used subscriber (because you subscribe to an email discussion list) rather than user, which is the correct term for this kind of forum. Some people here are subscribers, though, and they pay a fee to support the site and Kos's political activities.

                        No one has any legal rights on this site. It's the owner's property. That's not under discussion. Kos has every legal right to run the site exactly the way he pleases. If he wants to use it as his personal megaphone and money collector, that's his sole decision.

                        From a public image perspective, however, it seems to me that it's hypocritical to use freedom of speech, accountability and justice for all (among other progressive battle cries) as a political platform and then deny them to the very people who are providing you with power, influence and a nice income.

                        This is what disaffected, serious people mean when they say there's no real difference between the Democratic and Republican parties. So now the left (and Markos proudly identifies himself as a leftist) mirrors the right. The same language -- whine, yawn, love it or leave it -- now appears on DailyKos and FreeRepublic. DKos is much more open, of course, but the repressive tendencies are growing.

                        The response to feedback from the site's concerned users about this is eloquent. Shut up and do what you're told. This is private property. Next we'll be hearing about a crusade against the enemies of private property, I guess.

                        newsroom-l.net News and issues for journalists.

                        by Jules Siegel on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 04:59:35 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Pretty much (0+ / 0-)

                          This site has operated on the principle of "don't like it, leave" for a very long time.

                          Again I say, you might wish for Markos Moulitsas to feel bound by the first amendment and due process. But he is not, and never will be.

                          Fortunately, the US still is. Which means you are free to create a website which DOES adhere to those principles. I just never understand why everyone who has your complaint doesn't just create a site in their image, rather than complain about the fact that this site clearly does not conform to their preferences.

                          •  You don't understand? (0+ / 0-)

                            That's really a shame. If you bothered to click on my link you'd see that I have a very strong web presence.

                            Maybe some people like me had great hopes for this site and are now disillusioned with what Markos is doing and feel that he should hear about it.

                            If you can't understand that, and you can't see that your comment is one of many, many others with exactly the same point, I guess we will have to put up with you, just as you will have to put up with us.

                            newsroom-l.net News and issues for journalists.

                            by Jules Siegel on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 11:26:04 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  No (0+ / 0-)

                            You are the one, friend, who does not understand. I have been a member of this site for longer than almost anyone else. I know exactly what Markos is trying to accomplish here, and he's stayed remarkably true to his vision for as long as he's been running the place.

                            You have hopes for what someone else does with his private property. Those hopes are never going to be met. You seem to accept yes, that Markos can do what he wants, but you want to impose this normative view which says that Markos ought not do what he wants - he should do what you want.

                            That seems tragically anti-democratic to me. If your hopes are not being met on this site, then create another to rival it. You say you have a strong web presence. Well, use that to challenge what goes on here.

                            You are free, of course, to try to influence this site and Markos. But if I felt similarly to you, I would spend my time doing more constructive things.

                          •  I'm not your friend. (0+ / 0-)

                            Do you have a genetic disposition toward pompous false courtesy or is it something you picked up like a socially transmitted disease? Get a hold of yourself, fellow. The lordly tone is for Tories, not Democrats.

                            Your points are, at best, specious. I don't spend a lot of time trying to influence Markos, although I've been interested over the past few days.

                            I'm totally uninterested in using my web presence or my influence in general to counter-attack Markos. I use my web presence to provide information about Cancun, the world of bookarts, and to provide a medium where other journalists can discuss the issues of the day in an atomosphere of mutual respect and civil discourse. Once in while I sell a book or two, or get to meet some interesting person who seeks me out because of admiration for my work.

                            Unlike him or you, I'm a journalist, not a political operative. I've spoken my mind here, and I will continue to do so as long as I feel like it or until I'm banned, but that's my right as a private citizen.

                            Your definition of what is democratic and anti-democratic are, frankly, absurd. I think you should just sign on for the next war against the enemies of private property.

                            Don't lecture me about private property. Go tell it to the owners of Halliburton. Don't tell me how to best spend my time. Save that for your employees and your children, if any.

                            You will be happy to know that yours is actually the creepiest reply I've received since I began writing about the Chris Floyd issue. Since there are now hundreds of comments, that's quite a distinction.

                            And now, Mr. Big Shot Swing State Project guy, a loud wet fart directed at you from sunny Cancun. Ahhhhhh! That was good. I feel so much better now. Get out your gas mask. I hope you aren't eating or drinking because this emission will definitely cause you to gag and choke. Even though you are not my favorite person today, I'd hate for the world to lose even a single Democratic vote.

                            If that doesn't make sense to you, please check this out immediately. It will really help you a lot. It's part of my mission. You people need this. It will do you a world of good.

                            newsroom-l.net News and issues for journalists.

                            by Jules Siegel on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 01:30:08 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Amazingly enough (0+ / 0-)

                            I was being sarcastic when I used the word "friend," though I'm not surprised you didn't realize that. But I'm glad I achieved the level of creepiest commenter in your eyes. I'm going to print out your comment and put it on my wall. Especially the part about my response being "absurd." Now THAT is great logical reasoning!

                            Enjoy yourself in sunny Cancun, the destination of millions of college-age drunkards and stoners, Mr. Big Shot Newsroom-L guy. (I never knew how easy it was to hurl stupid ad hominems! I have you to thank. Molto grazie!)

                          •  You can't even get Cancun right (0+ / 0-)

                            You shouldn't attempt sarcasm. You're not very good at it. I strongly urge you to seek relief for your problem. It's no shame to be humor-impaired. It is a shame to indulge yourself in self-denial when help is at hand.

                            Cancun gets approximately three million visitors a year. Less than three per cent are college students. The tourism authorities were taken by surprise several years ago by a sudden influx of students who caused great damage to the resort's reputation. It took a while for them to get this under control, but they did. The Hotel Association strongly discouraged its members from soliciting this market. Only a few hotels now accept them. MTV no longer broadcasts live from Cancun during spring break.

                            The overwhelming majority of visitors to Cancun are adult salaried employees, mostly couples, many with children. There are a small number of wealthy individuals. About 35% of our visitors are Mexicans. You don't know that because you only know what the mainstream media tell you.

                            Getting back to DailyKos, absurd doesn't mean funny. It means inconsistent with reason or logic or common sense. Your response is absurd, because you create a logical fallacy. Democracy requires freedom of speech. It can't function without it because voters need to know what the issues are and how the candidates stand on them. A democracy without freedom of speech is just a sham. Is the People's Democratic Republic of China a democracy? Was the Soviet Union? And what was the characteristic they both shared? Answer: an absolute lack of freedom of speech.

                            It's not anti-democratic to advise a fellow citizen to listen to what other people have to say about his behavior, especially when it affects what purport to be common causes. You can't produce democracy by undemocratic methods. Otherwise, Bush's plan in Iraq would be working.

                            Markos doesn't have to take my advice. And he doesn't have to take the advice of so many other DailyKos users who have advised him along the same lines. His methods are obnoxious to the very people who admire other aspects of his talent. When I let it be known that I was going to review his book favorably, I was severely criticized by people who were early DKos users, who supported him when he was almost unknown, and then became disillusioned  by his tin ear when it came to accepting dissent.

                            I felt that book stood on its own merits and I went ahead with the review -- the first independent review of Crashing the Gate -- and then I defended him when the comments on the review page turned nasty. I still stand by the review, which was accompanied by a sidebar in which I briefly mentioned some concerns about his authoritarian tendencies.

                            You can take a haughty and dismissive attitude toward people like me, but I can assure you that at some point it is going to jump up when you least expect it and bite you in the face. I have no personal animosity toward Markos, but my admiration has certainly been tempered by reality. Other journalists are not as forbearing as I am. You (by this I mean Markos and the DailyKos insiders) may think you can cultivate the big time media and avoid the consequences of the nasty reputation you are developing among others you might feel don't count. It's the worse thing you can do.

                            Big media rely on small independent media for a kind of early warning system. I'm not important because I have a big audience. I have a tiny audience. But the people who read me and talk to me have very big audiences, believe me. Other people you may never have heard about are far more influential in that regard than I am. They are precisely the ones you are turning off. I know that because I see their reactions when I say anything positive about Markos Moulitsas Zuñiga.

                            At this point, the big media have some curiosity about Markos, but they don't really know who he is. My guess is that when he becomes important enough to worry about, he's going to be subjected to some very searching investigative reporting. The aim will be to discredit him with his base and destroy his credibility. I don't think that will be good for the Democrats because he is very definitely a strong influence for the good. Unfortunately, that will be the very reason for the attack.

                            They will scrutinize the whole DailyKos record and they will make him look like a dictatorial monster and they will also dig up dirt that none of us even suspect exists. If theycan't find it, they will invent it. You know the process. Because he seems to go out of his way to offend influential but relatively unknown people who are basically sympathetic to his views on many issues but strongly disagree on certain key issues such as freedom of speech, these potential allies will not come to his aid. Some will take the opportunity to pile on.

                            From a strictly tactical standpoint, he should give in a little, moderate his style a bit, and adapt to the changing conditions that come with increasing prominence and celebrity. If he doesn't, he will be relegated to kookville, and he will lose much of his current influence. I feel that will be a great loss and I think that he should do something about himself now, before it is too late.

                            newsroom-l.net News and issues for journalists.

                            by Jules Siegel on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 04:28:56 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Heh (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            marathon
                          •  Priceless response (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            DavidNYC

                            Simply priceless.

                            Actually, based on the way this person is acting here. The less said in response to this kind of crap, the better, IMO.

                            "We must love one another or die." - W. H. Auden

                            by marathon on Sun Jun 11, 2006 at 12:00:40 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Molto grazie! (0+ / 0-)
                          •  See 'It's already started' n/t (0+ / 0-)

                            newsroom-l.net News and issues for journalists.

                            by Jules Siegel on Mon Jun 12, 2006 at 09:58:40 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  It's already started. (0+ / 0-)

                            Daily Kos: Outsourcing Sleaze: National Review Invites Swiftboating of Daily Kos

                            by qwertman
                            Mon Jun 12, 2006 at 09:38:05 AM PDT

                            [Excerpts]

                            York re-hashes a few of Kos's more controversial statements, then invites others to go trolling in the archives to come up with more. Because, of course, he himself is much too professional to stoop to out-of-context quotes....or quotes from commenters.

                            ....

                            York writes well and thinks clearly. And he does actual reporting, as opposed to merely bloviating.  He's also dead wrong about just about everything, of course. But he was among the first on the right to recognize the "threat" of  the netroots in his book "The Vast left Wing Conspiracy" -- a good read despite the hyperbolic title.

                            ....

                            Watch for this meme in the coming days:

                            1. York's examples are picked up by the right wing echo chamber
                            1. Right wing bloggers come up with more examples
                            1. Media critics get in on the act, one of the best migration tactics to the MSM
                            1. Feature articles and opeds appear in the MSM. Watch for headlines like "For an Iconic Wesite, New Visdibilty and New Scrutiny"  Or how about: "Batttle of the Bloggers: Pioneer Liberal Site Becomes New Establisment and Finds Its Tactics Used Against Itself."

                            newsroom-l.net News and issues for journalists.

                            by Jules Siegel on Mon Jun 12, 2006 at 09:57:50 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Hey Mr. Big Web Presence? (0+ / 0-)

                            hey will scrutinize the whole DailyKos record and they will make him look like a dictatorial monster and they will also dig up dirt that none of us even suspect exists. If theycan't find it, they will invent it. You know the process.

                            It's clear you know the process very well, from how adept you are at smearing Markos.

                            Asshole.

                            Live the questions. - Rainer Maria Rilke

                            by Kimberly Stone on Sun Jun 11, 2006 at 04:03:13 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Where did I smear Markos? (0+ / 0-)

                            I never smear anyone. It is against my principles as a journalist never, never to go beyond the boundaries of truth to the slightest degree.

                            newsroom-l.net News and issues for journalists.

                            by Jules Siegel on Sun Jun 11, 2006 at 04:13:32 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  See 'It's already started' n/t (0+ / 0-)

                            newsroom-l.net News and issues for journalists.

                            by Jules Siegel on Mon Jun 12, 2006 at 09:59:00 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  all valid points (0+ / 0-)

                            less spleen would get the points across, and might even stimulate debate.

                            I agree with some of the basic points being made; but this is a big community.

                            Mistakes may have been made; there are egos involved.

                            Right now, your highly tuned display of spleen is making any type of meaningful discussion nearly impossible, as the response is nearly Pavlovian.

                            It surely is not out of ignorance .. you KNOW what the response will be. Why? Is this by design or frustration?

                            "Rovus vulgaris americanus"
                            Nasty, freshly-demoted
                            Soon-to-be-indicted
                            Co-conspirator
                            -7.63, -9.

                            by shpilk on Sun Jun 11, 2006 at 07:12:57 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  See 'It's already started' above (0+ / 0-)
                            Frustration.

                            newsroom-l.net News and issues for journalists.

                            by Jules Siegel on Mon Jun 12, 2006 at 09:59:39 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Also... (0+ / 0-)

                            No meaningful dialog is possible with these close-minded zealots. They argue from policy, not reason. That's why I used the term neo-Stalinism in my letter to Kos.

                            Anyone who tells a truth that does not conform to the party line is reviled, ridiculed and eventually banished.

                            newsroom-l.net News and issues for journalists.

                            by Jules Siegel on Mon Jun 12, 2006 at 10:01:29 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

            •  And that single word caused you to flip out? (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              rationalist

              Here's what I said:

              I also began to observe nasty clubbishness in the comments, bizarre troll-rating wars, reports of arbitrary banning, and what I perceived to be an epidemic of fawning on Markos and other kos celebrities. I find these to be symptoms of the emergence of a party line enforced by what I see as distasteful neo-Stalinist discipline tendencies, the same tendencies that I believe caused the current Democratic dilemma.

              Having lived through the effects of American Stalinism, I know what I'm talking about. Stalinism doesn't just refer to his crimes against humanity, but to the methods he used to attain power and suppress dissent.

              Children of American Stalinists who attempted to reason with their parents were ignored, given dismissive answers and even ridiculed. My father, fortunately, wasn't a Stalinist, but he did say that only Russians could fully understand Stalinism because it was an expression of Russian character, not one man's insanity. My father was a criminal, not Bugsy Siegel (although he did know him). He knew about repression in a way that people of your class can never fully understand.

              People like me, who have relatives who were tortured by the police, others imprisoned, who have lived outside the law in the culture of crime, whether as part of a criminal family, or as a journalist covering the counter-culture, tend to be very sensitive to repression in general. We know the police very well, and we are very aware of how cops act, whether uniformed or not.

              You, perhaps, see your intolerance for dissent as a characteristic of leadership. I see it as a symptom of the authoritarian personality. You can't admit you made a mistake and just go ahead and correct it, or explain why you feel it wasn't a mistake. You must unload in a sarcastic and demeaning way on the person who dared to bring to your attention in what you perceive to be less than respectful terms.

              That's a psychological problem, not a political problem. You happen to share it with the very same authoritarian personalities you tell us we need to remove from the political process. I don't believe that they can be removed from the political process, because politics attracts them. They need to exert power over other people. We can, possibly, substitute politicians whose authoritarian tendencies function for the public, common good, rather than the enrichment of a small class of property owners.

              I've worked with many celebrities and politicians in my time. They all shared to greater or lesser degree symptoms of the authoritarian personality syndrome. Their drive for fame and power and wealth arose from various forms of internal fear and anxiety. Every single one of them turned against the people who helped them succeed. Every single one of them surrounded themselves with an echo chamber of sock puppets.

              There were some, however, who knew their own failings and learned to listen to the advice of others, to overcome their failings, to learn how to say these very simple words: "I'm sorry. I was wrong. I will do my best to fix it." They never fully overcame the psychological syndromes that made them who they were, but at least they learned to get the most noxious aspects under control.

              You are a young guy and you are all charged up on your quest and you think you know what you are doing. Some day you are going to wake up after some shattering loss and you are going to have no choice but to look at what you did to cause it, and then, perhaps, this message will make some sense, if you remember it all.

              Until that day, enjoy yourself. But don't hand me a faceful of crap and tell me its macaroni, kid.

              newsroom-l.net News and issues for journalists.

              by Jules Siegel on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 11:28:34 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Gee, (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                bobbobgirl

                I can't imagine WHY people aren't responding to such kind words!

                Your first diary and the emails you sent reeked of "dickhead."

                You might get further with your crusade if you checked your tone.

                "If more parents home disciplined [their kids] there would be fewer people I have to smack in public." --Wilzerd Balefire.

                by TheBlaz on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 01:29:58 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  The same to you, doo-doo brain (0+ / 0-)

                  [1] I'm not on a crusade.

                  [2] Read the comment and respond to what I'm saying, if you can.

                  [3] Your mother wears combat boots.

                  newsroom-l.net News and issues for journalists.

                  by Jules Siegel on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 02:08:52 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  you've been (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    rgdurst, bobbobgirl

                    responded to plenty of times.

                    Your emails were rude, you selectively replied to comments on your diary, and you have no basis for your argument other than "I believe him."

                    "If more parents home disciplined [their kids] there would be fewer people I have to smack in public." --Wilzerd Balefire.

                    by TheBlaz on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 02:17:28 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  No one has yet responded to my central question (0+ / 0-)

                      See my comment with the subject line, "Extremely worked up?"

                      My emails were not in the least rude. I can't say the same for Markos's stupid reply, nor for many of the comments here or on the original diary. I did reply to some of the individual comments, where I felt that there was at least a primitive point. I didn't feel it necessary to reply the ones that seemed to me to be totally without merit, although I summed up my responses to them in a collective comment.

                      If you think I'm rude, what do you think about people calling me a dickhead? See the comment with the subject line "[new] Gee, (0 / 0)" for an example.

                      newsroom-l.net News and issues for journalists.

                      by Jules Siegel on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 02:36:41 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  I'll respond (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        rgdurst, bobbobgirl

                        Markos never addressed any of the issues that I raised in my letter. Neither has anyone who has replied to this comment -- unless I'm missing something. Here's the question: Markos (or one of the other high mucky-mucks) makes a mistake and commits an injustice against a subscriber. How should that be handled?

                        I don't believe there was an injustice here, but I know that's not what you want to hear.

                        I agree that there should be a neutral way to appeal a banning. It's happened before and someone WAS reinstated, I believe.

                        But in this specific instance, I don't believe an appeal is warranted. But that's simply my opinion.

                        Also, it was my opinion that your emails were rude and condescending. Frankly, it doesn't matter how you feel the tone of your email was, because you're not objective to it. You wrote it.

                        I'll even provide one example, the one I believe to be the worst:

                        Everyone is free to act like a moron, I guess, but it's really disappointing to see someone with your kind of talent and intelligence respond to well-meaning criticism with the same brainless stupidity he condemns so harshly in others.

                        Fix the problem, schmuck. Don't run a creepy number on the very concerned ally who is telling you that you are wrong.

                        Not rude? Please.

                        And strictly speaking, I didn't call you a dickhead. I said what you wrote reeked of dickhead. If you'd like to equate the two, that's fine.

                        Your emails and comments have a tone of arrogance, condescension and implied insults.

                        Sorry, but that's "rude" in my book.

                        "If more parents home disciplined [their kids] there would be fewer people I have to smack in public." --Wilzerd Balefire.

                        by TheBlaz on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 02:52:47 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  You are deceptive (0+ / 0-)

                          The rudeness of my reply to Kos was in response to the absolute jerkiness of his answer to me.

                          Your emails and comments have a tone of arrogance, condescension and implied insults.

                          I'm sorry that this place is filled with weak little flowers who can dish it out but can't take it. Implied insults are better than outright ones, which is what the various pathetic comments and replies that I am seeing in this thread are now calling forth from the depths of my tormented and frustrated soul.

                          What you perceive as arrogance and condescension are merely the self-confidence of a very experienced writer and professional opinionator who is, in fact, condescending to spar with a bunch of anonymous amateurs in non-paying forum instead of finishing the work at hand for his paying customers.

                          While my beloved bride, the beauteous Anita Brown, appreciates the concern for justice and public service that motivates this futile behavior, she asked me a few minutes ago, "Are you still replying to those Markos fans, or are you working on [project deleted for reasons of privacy]?"

                          I replied, "Just finishing whacking another mole, my love. I'll get right to it. Fear not."

                          Now I am going to make myself a cup of coffee and then I am going to drink and then I am not going to use any further energy responding to people who want to lecture me on the difference between saying that someone's comments reek of dickhead and saying he is a dickhead.

                          That's not condescending, of course. I couldn't possibly have been aware of the distinction. If you have not already done so, please go to New hope... and then get in touch with me for instructions on how to order the strap-on backpack enema model, which is clearly required in your case, as the one that goes behind the ear will never work.

                          [Off screen: "Yes, honey. I'm finished with the dwarf people. Sorry it took so long."]

                          newsroom-l.net News and issues for journalists.

                          by Jules Siegel on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 03:15:16 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Another undeserved attack from Jules (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            mataliandy, rgdurst

                            Think you're clever?

                            You're not.

                            Think you won the argument?

                            You did not. You lost in a 1st round knockout.

                            You maligned Kos in a deceptive way. You trust people who have been demonstrated to be untruthful and deceptive.

                          •  re: (0+ / 0-)

                            What you perceive as arrogance and condescension are merely the self-confidence of a very experienced writer and professional opinionator who is, in fact, condescending to spar with a bunch of anonymous amateurs in non-paying forum instead of finishing the work at hand for his paying customers.

                            Wow. You're certainly a tough guy. I wish I had your talent.

                            /laugh

                            Keep thinking of yourself as a badass internet tough guy, it's pretty damn funny.

                            While my beloved bride, the beauteous Anita Brown, appreciates the concern for justice and public service that motivates this futile behavior, she asked me a few minutes ago, "Are you still replying to those Markos fans, or are you working on [project deleted for reasons of privacy]?"

                            I replied, "Just finishing whacking another mole, my love. I'll get right to it. Fear not."

                            It's so wonderful to hear that you've found self-validation. Reminds me of someone who, while talking to their friends, says "Yeah, and then I was like, 'Asshole, you'd better back up because you have no idea what you're talking about!' And then he totally walked away!"

                            You're only interesting in your own mind, dude.

                            Haha, you're a sad, sad man. If you're trying to validate your opinion by insinuating a conversation between yourself and some person who somehow finds the patience to deal with someone like yourself, then keep trying.

                            You're funny, please post a reply. I love this stuff.

                            I'm sorry that this place is filled with weak little flowers who can dish it out but can't take it. Implied insults are better than outright ones, which is what the various pathetic comments and replies that I am seeing in this thread are now calling forth from the depths of my tormented and frustrated soul.

                            Keep going, you're only proving yourself to be a condescending prick. Not that we needed more proof of such a thing, you've done wonderfully so far.

                            Now I am going to make myself a cup of coffee and then I am going to drink and then I am not going to use any further energy responding to people who want to lecture me on the difference between saying that someone's comments reek of dickhead and saying he is a dickhead.

                            Translation: "I'm trying to be clever when I'm clearly not, so I'm going to go to my wife and tell her how I totally whipped someone in an online debate, but I won't give her details because I don't want her to question my awesomeness in internet debates."

                            Please, write another diary about this. I'd love to keep sparring.

                            "If more parents home disciplined [their kids] there would be fewer people I have to smack in public." --Wilzerd Balefire.

                            by TheBlaz on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 06:17:26 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Have the last word. n/t (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            JPete

                            newsroom-l.net News and issues for journalists.

                            by Jules Siegel on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 05:00:11 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I took that job about 3 months ago. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            bobbobgirl

                            sorry.

                          •  Snerk. n/t (0+ / 0-)

                            Live the questions. - Rainer Maria Rilke

                            by Kimberly Stone on Sun Jun 11, 2006 at 04:06:32 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

      •  Excuse my absence for a while. (0+ / 0-)

        I have to go out and get some work done, so I won't be able to reply to your comments in a timely fashion.

        newsroom-l.net News and issues for journalists.

        by Jules Siegel on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 06:53:02 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Why did you ignore the facts I provided (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          rgdurst

          In your previous diary?

          Why do you still maintain that Chris Floyd had no knowledge of the duplicate diaries when there is clear evidence that that information was provided to him on numerous occasions?

          Are you still trying to maintain that he didn't know that his webmaster posted his words in a diary here? His webmaster says they speak every day. Now, I would never insist that you need to take the guy literally, but if they do have this close relationship and do communicate very frequently, how believable is it to suggest that 'Ghandi' did not tell Chris Floyd that he was posting a diary here with Chris' latest attack on Democrats? I don't believe that. I don't believe that he would have posted Chris' words here and not told Chris within that 5 hour separation between Ghandi's diary and Chris' diary.

          On top of that, his blog entry from his site was not worthy of a single diary, much less two diaries. There were other Hayden diaries available. It could have been an entry on another diary. It seems clear that these diaries were an attack on Democrats and free advertising for Chris' website, rather than only an attempt to add to the discussion.

          •  I note with interest your lack of a reply (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            rgdurst

            and add one more thing.

            Chris didn't even have to go to the FAQ's to find out that creating a duplicate diary was wrong, or have people in the diary itself tell him that it was wrong. He should have gone to the FAQ's, but many people don't, and people did tell him that it was a duplicate diary, and they even provided links back to Ghandi's diary.

            When you create a diary, there are 4 rules. The first line is in red and it says "Attention: Read the Rules".

            Rule # 3 is

            No repetitive diaries. If it's been blogged or diaried, there's no need to repeat it. Take a moment to ensure your topic hasn't been blogged.

            Chris didn't do that simple step.

            If he did a search for Hayden and horse, he would have found it.
            http://www.dailykos.com/...

            If he had done a search on his own name, he would have found it. http://www.dailykos.com/...

            If he had done a search on Hayden, he would have found it. http://www.dailykos.com/...

            •  Why didn't I reply? (0+ / 0-)

              Because I was busy earning a living, and then I came home and answered Kos's pathetic response and a couple of others, and then I had lunch, and then I rested. And now here I am to answer your comment:

              [1] The way the error occurred was explained in my email to Kos.

              [2] It is explained again in a reply to you that I wrote a little while ago, which you rejected.

              [3] Yes, I believe Chris, because I have now corresponded at some length with him and with his webmaster, Richard, and I see no reason to doubt their explanations.

              [4] I consider your "evidence" at best weak and at worst obsessively over-interpreted.

              [5] I now have to go back to earning a living and I am tired of responding to closed-minded zealots who have the absolute fucking nerve to accuse a fellow journalist (with whom I have had no personal relation whatsoever before I looked into this) of lying about an entirely trivial incident involving a political forum filled with people like you.

              Is that clear? If not, go to the top and read it again.

              newsroom-l.net News and issues for journalists.

              by Jules Siegel on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 02:47:15 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Not accurate, yet again (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                mataliandy, rgdurst
                1. Your email does not explain how the error happened.

                Chris Floyd had an obligation to check to see if there were diaries on that subject before he posted. He did not. Every time you create a diary, it tells you this under Rule # 3.

                Chris Floyd was told that his diary was a duplicate in his own diary.

                Chris Floyd and Rich were communicating, according to Rich's (Ghandi's) diary.

                It's not believable that Chris didn't know that Rich had posted that.

                This is not the first time that the two of them had posted duplicate diaries.

                1. Nothing was explained in any reply that you put on this diary. I did not reject a reasonable explanation. None was forthcoming.
                1. Their explanations do not hold water. In addition, their explanations contradict known, undenable facts on numerous occasions. They are demonstrably false. That you believe them versus being willing to look at their answers critically is further evidence of how unreliable you and your judgements are.
                1. My evidence is very strong. I did not try to claim that the two posters are sockpuppets. That would be weak evidence. It is absurd to classify the evidence I provided as weak.
                1. What is very clear is that you are not able to refute my assertions. You were unable to do so when you first posted your diary, so you failed to reply to them at all, even though you replied to numerous other posts on that diary. If I was like you, and I was unable to refute the assertions of someone who had proven me wrong, I would be frustrated too. I am not like you though, and I did not come into this with a closed mind. That is what you did. I went to Chris Floyd's website to gather information before I said anything. I did not allege that he was a sockpuppet.

                What's clear is your inability to accept that you were misled by Chris Floyd. That's what's clear.

              •  How do you reconcile (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                rgdurst

                And at that point, I had no idea about the "sockpuppet" hoo-hah anyway. There were just a couple of comments to my diary to the effect of, "It was better the first time around." I didn't know what they were talking about.

                How do you reconcile the above with the posts in his diary that clearly provided links back to Ghandi's diary and/or referenced comments taken directly from his own work?

                You cannot.

                It cannot be true that there were only a couple of comments that he did not understand about how it was better the first time around. I linked to posts that show that.

                You tried to do the same thing that Chris Floyd did on his website, and that is provide only a portion of the available evidence. There were multiple people harassing Kos about the banning of Chris Floyd via email. That's clear. You do the same thing, and he says 'fuck off, idiot', and you then try to act like he is the one off his meds and making unreasonable decisions. That's unfair to Kos and to this site.

      •  Jules does not tell the whole story here (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        rgdurst, TheBlaz

        He said

        He did not knowingly post double diaries nor did he engage in "sock puppetry." When he was informed of the double diary problem he couldn't delete it because he had already been banned.

        That's not true.

        Not only is it not true, I told Jules this several times on Monday! How is it that he doesn't know it now?

        Here's a post I made that included links to both diaries and information.
        http://www.dailykos.com/...

        Here's another link to another comment I made on Jules' diary.
        http://www.dailykos.com/...

        Here's what Rich, his website guy, said when the two of them seemed to be sockpuppets on a Leopold diary.

        http://www.dailykos.com/...

        Chris and I talk daily as we run a blog together.

        So they talk daily but Chris didn't know that Rich posted one of Chris's stories here as a diary?

        When Rich posted the diary first, he was told that there were plenty of Hayden diaries already.

        When Chris posted his later in the day, there were several comments that told him that it was a duplicate diary, but neither was ever deleted.

        It was a wimpy excuse for a diary, it bumped other diaries off the list, and it was a duplicate that was not removed.

        Jules did reply to some comments on that diary. Funny, but he never even tried to challenge my points. Maybe because he couldn't.

        So, going back to Jules' point, that poor old Chris Floyd could not do anything to remove the offending diaries because by the time he knew about it, he had been banned! Not true.

        The first diary was published by Ghandi around 10 in the morning. Moments after it was posted, TeresaInPa told him http://www.dailykos.com/...

        this is the third diary on this in about 10 minutes.

        Ghandi posted no comments on that diary, and even after being told it was a duplicate diary, did not remove it. Remember, Ghandi says that he and Chris talk daily, but somehow Ghandi never told Chris that he posted Chris' work on DailyKos on that day. I believe that, and I believe in the tooth fairy too.

        So then Chris Floyd posts an almost identical diary at 3 that afternoon, and what happens? Within moments of it being posted, numerous people tell him that it's a duplicate diary and he should remove it.

        ek hornbeck, BiminiCat, floundericiousMI, Yellow Canary, RepublicanTaliban, Ahianne, NewDirection, blockbuster, and dannyinla all told Chris Floyd that it was a duplicate diary. Several of them even referenced Ghandi's diary or provided links back to it.

        So, Jules says

        He did not knowingly post double diaries nor did he engage in "sock puppetry." When he was informed of the double diary problem he couldn't delete it because he had already been banned.

        That's just not believable, nor does it jive with the facts. He was told. I do not believe that he would not have known that 'Ghandi' posted the same diary earlier, and even if he didn't, he was told in his own diary, but he did not remove it. He was informed in his own diary moments after it was posted, so it's just not true to say that he couldn't delete it. He could have. He chose not to do so. For that choice, he was banned.

        •  Oh please. (0+ / 0-)

          How did these people tell Chris about his duplicate diary? Did they call him on the phone? Bombard him with urgent email messages? Or did they leave comments on the diary?

          Here's what he told me:

          I was looking at the comments you got for the diary entry at Kos. Pretty depressing. And still with the doppelganger stuff: "let Chris Floyd prove he is a real person" or even "let an independent investigation prove" that Floyd and Kastelein are different people, etc. It's nuts. I see one new tack is, "If Floyd really posted his duplicate diary accidentally, why didn't he just remove it?" The reason is that I was banned BEFORE I even knew there was a duplicate diary out there.

          Another was, "Why didn't Floyd remove the diary when he was told it was a duplicate?" Because nobody told me it was a duplicate. I just put the entry up there late one afternoon -- on my entirely separate computer in my office at Oxford University, far away from Rich in Holland -- then went about my business.

          A few hours later I get a message from Rich saying that he'd been banned and I probably would be too. I checked my Kos site -- and I was already locked out. I couldn't comment or post up an explanation. And at that point, I had no idea about the "sockpuppet" hoo-hah anyway. There were just a couple of comments to my diary to the effect of, "It was better the first time around." I didn't know what they were talking about.

          You are trying to tell me that a guy like Chris Floyd is going to lie to me to cover his ass on a site like DailyKos? This may be your only outlet for your political views, but it isn't his only outlet and it isn't mine.

          You don't find him believable. I do. More than that, I think that your minute disquisition and endless speculation about his motives or what actually happened at what exact time are entirely disproportionate to the supposed offense.

          Big deal. Some guy posted a diary and a friend of his posted it, too. Wow. They broke the rules. I am horrified. Why were they only banned? Surely they deserved to be burned at the stake.

          Have a nice day, Internet viewers.

          newsroom-l.net News and issues for journalists.

          by Jules Siegel on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 12:03:40 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Yes, I believe he is lying (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            rgdurst

            If that is what he says.

            He posted a diary and never checked a comment? I don't believe it. He knows about this site. He knows about checking diaries that you post yourself. He has commented on his own diaries before. I believe that either you are lying about what he said, or that he is lying about what actually happened. I do not believe that his webmaster, Rich, who just a few days before this episode said that they talk every day, would have posted Chris' blog entry as a diary here without telling him within 5 hours that he had done so.

            And what about the bigger point I made, Jules - that I had already told you all this before? Huh? I note that you failed to reply to a single post of mine on your first diary on this topic. When I bring that fact up, that this information had been made available to you before, you ignore that point here too.

            It's not a 'new' tack for me as 'Chris' says. It is the tack that I have stuck with from the very start. In fact I have disputed that there was proof that he had a sockpuppet. (At one point in time I did bring up that it was not believable that both Rich and Chris indicated that they did not even know what a sockpuppet was! I don't believe that, but it fit conveniently into their 'stories', so I believe that it is just another piece of circumstantial evidence that makes their stories less believable.)

            He gives himself away to anyone who has half a brain. He claims that

            There were just a couple of comments to my diary to the effect of, "It was better the first time around." I didn't know what they were talking about.

            But that's not true. There were several direct references as well as links to the previous diary posted by Ghandi!
            http://www.dailykos.com/... posted half an hour after his diary was posted.
            http://www.dailykos.com/... or here where DannyinLA mentions Ghandi by name and blockquotes my favorite line, about how Democrats are a "fetid sack of quivering jellyfish: spineless, boneless, brainless, useless."

            In looking back through the diary history of both Ghandi and Chris Floyd, it looks like there were more than one instance of nearly duplicate diary postings.

            If the diary postings had happened at about the same time, then an accident could be asserted. With a 5 hour separation, I don't think that's the case.

            You end with a strawman argument. I never said that a worse penalty should be applied to these two posters. The argument was whether or not there appeared to be collusion to post duplicate diaries in violation of the rules. There did. There still does. The excuses given ring hollow and don't hold water.

            •  You believe he's lying? (0+ / 0-)

              I believe you're daft. It all balances out.

              newsroom-l.net News and issues for journalists.

              by Jules Siegel on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 02:09:59 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  No, it does not (0+ / 0-)

                I provided evidence that documents how he could have and should have known this.

                You provided no evidence that I am daft.

                You lose.

                Nothing is a substitute for evidence, not even untrue statements about my mental health. I am proud to say that you were unable to dispute any of my comments. You didn't do so when I made them on your first diary on this topic, and you didn't do it when you posted on this thread either.

                I also now believe that you cannot support your declarations on this topic.

                •  I also said the same things (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  rgdurst

                  In Thor's diary back in early June.

                  If that happened and you were told that it was a duplicate diary, then shouldn't you delete one?

                  They were hours apart. They got comments immediately.

                  It was a diary that unfairly and unreasonably, in my mind, attacked Democrats. It was not a substantial issue, in my mind, and didn't deserve to be a diary at all. There were plenty of Hayden diaries and Open Threads. They were both told that there were duplicate diaries and neither was removed.

                  http://www.dailykos.com/...

                  http://www.dailykos.com/...

                  And in another place, Ghandi (Rich) says

                  Chris and I talk daily as we run a blog together.

                  http://www.dailykos.com/...

                  They talk daily, but Chris Floyd didn't know that Rich posted Chris's column?

                  I am quite stable. I never said that I suspected he was banned because they discovered he had a sockpuppet account. I bet it's because of the multiple duplicate diaries and the obnoxious and unfair attacks on Democrats in general in that most recent diary. Having sockpuppets is unacceptable. Having a close friend act like a sockpuppet would act is not acceptable either.

                  Mike S said in that same diary by Thor

                  http://www.dailykos.com/...

                  Upon further review, the Ghandi one is supposedly a reprint of Chris' original. What doesn't make sense is the fact that Chris posted it AFTER ghandi posted it.

                  And in the comments of ghandi's diary he wrote this comment BEFORE Chris wrote his diary.  

                  I find it rather revealing (1+ / 10-)

                  Chris Floyd won't post here anymore and requested me, his webmaster, to remove the banner and text links to Daily Kos that we used to carry at Empire Burlesque as some sort of 'harmony' with the 'mainstream' progressive movement.

                  It seems to me that there is much more to this story than originally reported by Chris Floyd.

                  So Mike S says that before Chris ever even posted his diary, he was pissed at DailyKos. Since I cannot see Hidden Comments, I cannot verify all the Ghandi comments on his own diary that were troll-rated. It looks like the facts are against you here. They never squared with the picture that Chris Floyd painted of this incident, and they still do not square.

                  •  Very good. (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    CSI Bentonville

                    Excellent detective work. A major case for Perry Mason, I'm sure.

                    [Off-screen. Picks up spirit line: "Hello, hello, is that you Clarence? We've got another case for the attorney for the damned. A fellow named Chris Floyd has been sent to Coventry for some dreadful infractions of the posting rules on DailyKos.com. I need you for the appeal as they've got a high-powered prosecutor named bobbobgirl who is determined to silence him forever. What's that you say? No, that's not her real name. None of them use their real names. It's all a Star Chamber proceeding. I think they wear masks and everything." Loud rumbling and -- WOW! -- Clarence Darrow swooshes up from Hell, where he has been preparing the defense of Ann Coulter in anticipation of her arrival.]

                    Goodbye, Bobbobgirl. I don't usually argue with anonymous phantoms, and I have a lot of other things to do right now, what with Clarence Darrow's ghost being here and all. You stop by if you ever get to Cancun, hear?

                    newsroom-l.net News and issues for journalists.

                    by Jules Siegel on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 03:28:12 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  You still think you're clever? (0+ / 0-)

                      You still aren't clever.

                      You are the one that made inane declarations.

                      You got put in your place, and now your attempts to put others down just make you look petty and immature, not clever and correct.

            •  Well, the 'L' bomb has been dropped. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              CSI Bentonville, RickBoston

              lying

              At least it's clear what we're dealing with here now.

              Live the questions. - Rainer Maria Rilke

              by Kimberly Stone on Sun Jun 11, 2006 at 04:20:26 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  Failure to hew to authentic democratic principles (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Jules Siegel
        will break down an association marked by voluntary participation more swiftly than any outside agent could hope to do. Walt Kelly's Pogo said, (wisely, I believe, for a possum): "We has met the enemy, and they is us." If DKos struggles to embody the principles of democratic process faithfully, upon what foundation will it base its moral authority to call for an overhaul of a corrupt Democratic party and a failed democratic process?

        "America may be unique in being a country which has leapt from barbarism to decadence without touching civilization." -- John O'Hara

        by Enough Talk Lets Get Busy on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 12:13:10 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  My point exactly. (0+ / 0-)

          Thank you -- although I think your comment would be clearer if you said, "If Dkos fails in its struggle to embody..." Democracy will always be a struggle. That's a given. But we must struggle to succeed, and not give in to the very tactics of those who would shut us down.

          "Lo mejor de la democracia es que se puede hablar mal de ella." --Note found on the Cancun Post Office buleltin board, 1998. (Loosely translated, "The best thing about democracy is that you can say bad things about it.")

          newsroom-l.net News and issues for journalists.

          by Jules Siegel on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 12:28:08 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  People Powered Media (9+ / 0-)

    Our time has come.

    Knowledge is the Past. Wisdom is the Future.
    Visit Hoot at the Dark.

    by Night Owl on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 01:08:35 AM PDT

    •  Here we have finally got some coverage (5+ / 0-)

      so lets make sure the issues are not just what Bush Co. has done wrong.

      We could talk about Bush Co. and the Republicans constant lying, corruption, cronyism, the war, the advocacy of kidnapping, torture, murder, rendition, reprisals, death squads, war crimes, coverups, Katrina, the attacks on the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, the incompetence, the damage to the economy and our reputation at home and abroad, but lets not.

      Lets make sure we get out our message out about about Global Warming being a planetary emergency, and alternative energies being needed to come on line now as Al Gore has pointed out in "An Inconvenient Truth".

      We have no further need to spend money fighting WWII or the cold war with nuclear subs unless we go out of our way to create such a need by making enemies out of people who would like to be our friends.

      We have a desperate need for Pay as you Go with a focus on healthcare, social security, medicare, medicaid, education and finishing up the war on poverety before we go off on any more foreign adventures.

      Governments need infrastructure to govern. They don't need a secret police designed to keep Big Brother in power.

      We need to win the 2006 mid term elections big, apoint a new majority speaker, IMPEACH Bush and Cheney, let the new speaker become President and appoint a new cabinet.

      Then we need to appoint a new majority speaker, let Congress pass a law to increase the size of the Supreme Court by two justices and let the New President appoint two new justices.

      Then we can bring the troops home two years earlier than otherwise would be the case letting Iraqs leaders kick us out to improve their position with their supporters, nationalize Halliburtons assets in country and let Iraq's engineers use them to complete the reconstructuion of their nation.

      People who belong in a community have less need to protect themselves from it than a foreign army of occupation.

      Then lets use the Patriot Act to go after the people who stole the nine trillion dollars from our coffers with tax breaks, subsidies, no bid, no show contracts, and good old fashioned kickbacks and graft. Corporations, big oil, Halliburton aided and abeted the real terrorism, by ignoring alternative fuels and global warming so we should repeal all the legislation of the last 6 years and confiscate their assets.

      Live Free or Die (-8.88 -9.49) IMPEACH

      by rktect on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 03:04:25 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Well... (5+ / 0-)

    since I have your ear.

    I would like to hear that the defaults have all been set to 50 and the maximums to 100 or 200.

    But that's just me.

    Hope you and the gang are having a good time.

    •  meta-kos (9+ / 0-)

      it's all about community

      in a nutshell the question is:  what are the essential components of dkos -- what is required to duplicate it?

      and by 'dkos' I mean a huge active self-determining community.

      I still don't get it myself:  the software wasn't unique, the writing was good but not unique (or certainly not unique anymore), yet dkos has its own community and feel that is totally discrete from myDD or other comparable sites.

      wtf is that?
      •  armando (5+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Mullibok, stevej, bleargh, ek hornbeck, Jawis

        also remember to talk about armando

        a lot

        that's what everyone really wants to hear about

        and we haven't had much of it here lately

      •  I'd just add (10+ / 0-)

        ... what might be required to duplicated it LOCALLY in the States, or perhaps nationally in another nation. We don't need another Daily Kos nationally in the U.S. because we have this one.

        If I were attending a session called "meta kos," I'd hope to hear what it takes to create and nourish a community like this -- not just the software and other technology, although that's important, but also the human issues involved. What are the site features but also what are the features of the writing?

        I share your interest in trying to hear from the creator of this community how and why it became so successful. I disagree with your comment about the writing here, however. Kos has a particular voice that makes me want to read his take on things. For example, Daily Kos helps keep me informed about races in areas of the country I might not otherwise know about. But I don't always come here for news about local races I don't know about; I also come here for his specific analysis of races and issues I DO know about.

        •  yep (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          paige, ek hornbeck

          but is that all it is?  Is kos' "voice" that much different than Jerome's -- or why didn't myDD evolve the way this site did?

          and, yes, I was also thinking about what it would take for say activists in other countries (say Venezuela) to set up their own equivalent of dkos, but also of setting up similar sites domestically on other non-political topics.  or is the nature of the beast essentially political?

        •  My dream meta-Kos will survive Las Vegas. It (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          ek hornbeck
          will be continuous, it will be consciously inclusive of all points of view, it will resolve the artificially imposed wedge issue gaps among political viewpoints of the middle class, the poor, the socially marginalized and disenfranchised. It will channel all the energy, frustration and democratic ferment for which this nation has been famous/notorious for hundreds of years. Meta-Kos will "metasticize", it will come to exist locally, expanding continuously in all directions, on red and blue turf alike, on county and state levels. It will reflect, and reinforce, what is most powerful and useful about the courage, strength, diversity, compassion and wisdom of "We the People", immigrants all. It will not seek to dilute collective power, yet be structured to avoid the dissipation of focused action mass efforts often suffer. Meta-Kos will require of its participants that they commit to operationalize their discussions, turn words into action, using "best practices" strategies and techniques. It will research and promulgate best practices in political skill-building, strategizing, recruiting. It will encourage the formation of Highlander-style political training workshops where political veterans and innovators teach such techniques as guerilla marketing and publicity methods for the viral transmission of important information to the greatest number of people in the shortest amount of time. It will refine such political staples as volunteer recruiting, the vetting and training of engaged citizen volunteers in how to consider, debate and resolve national and local priorities with the rest of the electorate. Other best practices sharing will include: mounting effective town and campaign meetings, encouraging gatherings in homes, assemblies in schools, at churches, among civic groups, at public events, political Meet-ups.

          Meta-kos in every town and city will extend a type of political "common dialogue" to all non-Kos concerned Americans, to determine, and update frequently, what concerns are of greatest moment, what issues most pressing locally, regionally and nationally.  

          Meta-Kos will encourage the formation of independent, informal, localized "citizen think tanks", essentially "councils" of experienced citizen "advisors" who would identify and coach the most committed progressive and independent activists to empower themselves, and in turn others, to take on, and overcome, entrenched political interests standing in the way of joint progress. They might survey, then advise on the best use of, available resources in any given locale. Meta-Kos sourced action groups (mini-Kos's) will place a premium on assessing the issues most relevant and concerning to given localities/states, ensuing good research into the issues and those people causing the trouble; determining the most pragmatic, effective and easily implemented strategies for opposing efforts to weaken democratic process; bringing "people power" to the forefront to counter elites' manipulation of information in the media and their use of force and intimidation; opportunity to frame debates

          "America may be unique in being a country which has leapt from barbarism to decadence without touching civilization." -- John O'Hara

          by Enough Talk Lets Get Busy on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 01:21:57 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Agreed (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ek hornbeck

        I am very interested to hear ideas about why this site is so successful and how to duplicate it for other countries. Or how to create the same sense of community for other countries.

      •  I want all the panellists (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        emptypockets, ek hornbeck

        ...to introduce themselves with a sentence starting "I'm [name], and I'm bad for Daily Kos because..."

        -- Not Trusted since 2006

        by Del C on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 12:02:28 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Agree (8+ / 0-)

      As this place continues to EXPLODE in size, what are we going to do about the ever increasing troll attacks? Lessening the arsenal of the TU's is clearly not working, as I've had to send emails to FP'ers the last two nights about troll diaries. More must be done.

      BREAKING! Zarqawi is still dead again!!

      by RNinNC on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 01:17:18 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Need To Have More Designated People Available To (7+ / 0-)

        Troll Diaries and ban people from the site at the same time or have a button for TU's to be able to delete diaries if significant number agrees that it should be deleted.

        •  That's Alot of Power (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Avila, peraspera, Black Max, bobbobgirl

          but without it, we are becoming mired in trollish diaries without recourse. I picture them laughing under their bridges as we YET AGAIN drop an email to a Front Pager at 3AM. They're even smart enough not to bother commenting, which leaves us shouting in each others' ears. Tiresome.

          BREAKING! Zarqawi is still dead again!!

          by RNinNC on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 02:03:45 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I emailed G10 and she removed one (6+ / 0-)

            I don't know if it was because of my email , someone elses or she caught it herself, but if anyone sees one, figure out who is posting at the time and drop them a email. The diary was gone in a couple min.s. I agree we could use a monitor at times like this when a certain issue is bringing the gnats around, but don't feed them with replys, insults, or even recipes. Just send emails and I'm sure those in charge will do what they can.

            -8.63 -7.28 He was carrying a skateboard on his back, a red rose in his fist, and the war.

            by OneCrankyDom on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 02:09:57 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I Agree (8+ / 0-)

              and I've done it, too. It just doesn't seem that efficient, and it's hard to know whether one's email is being "heard" in a timely manner.

              Maybe we could get the power to simply MARK a diary as a probable "troll" diary, but nothing automatic would happen until an FP'er acted. Maybe something like that would automatically send out a distress signal to those at the top so they could investigate an allegedly offensive diary once it hit a certain threshold.

              BREAKING! Zarqawi is still dead again!!

              by RNinNC on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 02:39:31 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  The Diary By Ms Marco 4 Truth Was Up For (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                peraspera, vcmvo2, bobbobgirl

                hours on the 7th before it was deleted and diarist, a vicious, destructive troll was not banned and posted another hate filled piece of crap on 8th. It is very disruptive of the site, not to mention the fact that it would not reflect well on the site if that slime was reported as being representative of the community.

                •  I Was There for Both (5+ / 0-)

                  I emailed Plutonium Page the first night and georgia10 the second. But Armando's info stayed on the recent diary list for hours and we were helpless.

                  I finally threatened one troll with disclosing HIS phone number - which I dug up in less than five minutes. I'd never do it, 'cause then we're no better than them, but I made sure he knew I had it. That diary disappeared as well.

                  I myself am tired of spending most of my time on dKos chasing down FP'ers to strike troll diaries.

                  BREAKING! Zarqawi is still dead again!!

                  by RNinNC on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 03:25:18 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  What is your definition of a Troll? (0+ / 0-)

                  Most people are idiots... But don't tell them. It'll spoil all the fun for those of us who aren't.

                  by d3n4l1 on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 03:40:50 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  From FAQ: (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    bobbobgirl

                    [emphasis added]

                    Dealing with trolls
                    Trolling is a sad reality of internet life. Most trolls tend to be blatant, posting comments or diaries that are clearly intended to provoke an angry response. Other trollish messages are posted simply to disrupt the conversation in a diary. Directly replying to the content of a trollish message is usually a waste of time; trolls tend not to be interested in actual debate. There are two methods in wide use to help keep the community as troll-free as possible. The first is troll-rating comments. Trusted Users (see above) can give comments a rating of troll. If a comment has been rated by two or more users, and there are more troll ratings than recommends, then that comment (and all replies to it) are automatically hidden. Hidden comments and their responses can only be seen by Trusted Users. Unfortunately, there is no similar mechanism for hiding trollish diaries. Instead of writing detailed rebuttals of whatever claims or argument the troll is making, the standard response to a troll diary is to post comments containing recipes for tasty dishes. Plenty of examples can be found in the Troll Diary tag. An entire cookbook of recipes has been collected and is being sold as a fundraiser.

                    And . . .

                    Appropriate use of troll ratings
                    An excellent discussion of when a troll-rate is appropriate, and some of the common types of trolls, can be found in the troll rating article, originally from this diary. Reading this article is highly recommended before issuing any troll-ratings.
                    Some posters create accounts at dkos strictly for the purpose of causing disruption. It is considered acceptable to troll rate all of the posts made by such people, even the ones thar are not in and of themselves trollish. It should be emphasized, however, that this should not be done lightly. Before rating comments en-masse, you should be very very sure that the author is really a troll, and not just a regular poster who is having a bad day. If there is any shadow of a doubt as to whether a person is a dedicated troll, you should refrain from mass-troll-rating their comments.
                    To prevent abuse of the troll-rate button, as of June 2, 2006, trusted users can give out a maximum of two troll rates per day.

                    2,486 Died for Lies . . . We Fight for Peace!

                    by Wbythebay on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 09:16:29 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

              •  we need to debate the trolls (0+ / 0-)

                its good practice

                of course they should let us post on their sites too

                maybe if we had a special troll diary section

                You will lie to your grandchildren when they ask what you did to prevent climate change.

                by Peter Pan on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 03:14:13 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  What is your definition of a Troll? (0+ / 0-)

                Most people are idiots... But don't tell them. It'll spoil all the fun for those of us who aren't.

                by d3n4l1 on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 03:40:39 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  TU's can adjust the tags on the diary (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                CSI Bentonville

                If you search the tags for "troll diary," you'll find a few that have been marked accordingly.

                Thwarting the forces of conservatism since 1978. -7.63, -5.64

                by wiscmass on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 09:27:03 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  But (0+ / 0-)

                  that won't help us to get rid of diaries like those of the other night. I have to work tonight, but I'm sure that the same Armando troll diaries are gonna keep showing up. Changing a tag won't alert a moderator of the possibility of a "Troll Diary" having just been posted. And these are a new breed of Troll Diary, ones that can cause IRL trouble. Speed is of the essence in these cases.

                  BREAKING! Zarqawi is still dead again!!

                  by RNinNC on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 04:47:44 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

        •  I've got an idea, further downthread... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          SallyCat, Black Max

          It's here...it has an idea that may be workable (IMO).

          ...your thoughts...?

          Never, never brave me, nor my fury tempt:
            Downy wings, but wroth they beat;
          Tempest even in reason's seat.

          by GreyHawk on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 04:03:00 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  What is your definition of a Troll? (0+ / 0-)

        Most people are idiots... But don't tell them. It'll spoil all the fun for those of us who aren't.

        by d3n4l1 on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 03:39:57 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  This is part of my concern (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Avila, d3n4l1, scottman
      Is there some kind of actual numerical theory behind this?  Anybody who could set it up with some game theory equations?

      Alex
      Choose Our President 2008

    •  Perhaps a tiered troll-rating structure? (9+ / 0-)

      Why don't we have entry-level Trusted Users, moving up to Senior or Really Trusted Users after a certain period of time plus an above-average mojo?

      I'm fairly new here: never posted a diary, don't come by every day.  But right now I have the same trusted user status that the popular, deeply-rooted long-term members have.  I bet it would be tricky to manage extra variables for every user, but c'mon, we're Democrats: we're smart enough to figure this out.

      2000-2008: The Eric Cartman Presidency

      by scottman on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 01:54:45 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  More power for a few superusers is a bad idea (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        scottman

        unless one happens among the favored few. The volume is misleading; at most 3-4 dozen users (out of how many thousands?) are thumping the tub for more suppression power. And let's be clear: a trollrating is a vote for suppression.

        There's more than enough collective wisdom in the dkos community to deal with whatever comes along, using the tools already in place.

        Trust the community. Be a trusting user.

    •  What is your definition of a Troll? (0+ / 0-)

      Most people are idiots... But don't tell them. It'll spoil all the fun for those of us who aren't.

      by d3n4l1 on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 03:39:33 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  A troll is an intentionally abusive user. (6+ / 0-)

        There is a formal definition in the dKosopedia, here.

        One example of trollish (boorish or rude) behavior is to repeatedly post the exact same comment over and over again.

        (just sayin'...)

        Never, never brave me, nor my fury tempt:
          Downy wings, but wroth they beat;
        Tempest even in reason's seat.

        by GreyHawk on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 03:56:40 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Asking a question to each user (0+ / 0-)

          so they can see it in their comments as a response is not trolling.

          Most people are idiots... But don't tell them. It'll spoil all the fun for those of us who aren't.

          by d3n4l1 on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 03:59:14 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I understand, but to a casual reader it comes off (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            SallyCat, als10, Black Max, Keith Moon

            as annoying, so I thought I'd give you a small poke in good humor.

            Note that I didn't troll rate ya for it -- it's a good question, albeit one that was easily answered via the dKosopedia.  But, that definition alone may no longer suffice if the recent Troll Wars presented folks with new methods and manifestations, so your question is still pertinent.

            And I notice that you didn't troll rate me, either, so I'm hoping my little poke didn't offend ya much.

            ;)

            ...all that said, did you check the dKosopedia definition that I referred to?  Does that appear to suffice for a definition, or would you describe a troll any differently?  Do you think the existing def should be expanded or updated?

            Never, never brave me, nor my fury tempt:
              Downy wings, but wroth they beat;
            Tempest even in reason's seat.

            by GreyHawk on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 04:06:53 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I think the definition (0+ / 0-)

              needs to be much more concise, much more distinctive, have a checklist, and the current description is simply a diary of a high status diarist which makes it personal and prone to errors.
              It needs to be taken more seriously than that rather than what appears to be, with all due respect, what amounts to taking a stump speech given before an angry mob and making it a law.

              Most people are idiots... But don't tell them. It'll spoil all the fun for those of us who aren't.

              by d3n4l1 on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 04:14:26 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Erm...is that the same definition I'm reading? (0+ / 0-)

                "A high status diarist"...?

                That would mean Hunter, Georgia10, Armando, DarkSyde and Devilstower all qualify as trolls.

                I agree that the definition in dKosopedia could be updated, refined and focused -- the refs it makes are good filler, but a set definition for this site would be a good starting tidbit -- but I'm not sure that I follow the logic of the working definition that you're providing.

                Never, never brave me, nor my fury tempt:
                  Downy wings, but wroth they beat;
                Tempest even in reason's seat.

                by GreyHawk on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 04:21:40 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  Quit looking (6+ / 0-)

            for some narrow legalistic "definition" of a troll.  You won't find one.  

            The moment such a definition was made, and agreed upon, trolls would find clever ways to circumvent it, the way you are doing by posting the same question over and over again claiming it's so each user will see the question.

            Perhaps you don't accept this, but we all accept

            1. trolls exists
            1. they oppose what dkos stands for, and behave in a manner which detracts from the goals of the site

            So it always comes down to a judgement call as to who meets #2 in their intentions and actions.

            So yeah, posting the same question over and over makes the comments unreadable and detracts from the site.  Thus, I call troll on you.

            "I will make a bargain with the Republicans. If they will stop telling lies about Democrats, we will stop telling the truth about them." -- Adlai Stevenson

            by Scientician on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 08:05:18 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  How unscientific of you (0+ / 0-)

              I am a computer programmer.  I am also a pilot.  Surely there are a set of rules that we can define that say when we see this, accompanied by this, but it must also have this, then trollrate.  If you don't seek to model something then you wont ever model it.  How unbecoming of a scientist to tell someone not to explore to understand something.

              Most people are idiots... But don't tell them. It'll spoil all the fun for those of us who aren't.

              by d3n4l1 on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 02:59:06 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

  •  Bravo (16+ / 0-)

    That's a damn fine speech.  Makes me proud to be even a little part of this movement...

  •  Great Speech, Markos! (6+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Avila, x, high5, paige, jorndorff, Gorette

    We will take back control! Power to the people!

  •  Why not take the trolls by the horns...? (10+ / 0-)

    Address some of the complaints about the new TU status and problems people have complained about here in having to deal with Trolls(most of whom I personally find a little entertaining in a sick sort of way)... ; )

    Dudehisattva... <div style="color: #0000a0;">"Generosity, Ethics, Patience, Effort, Concentration, and Wisdom"&l

    by Dood Abides on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 01:16:09 AM PDT

    •  Dude -- here's a possibility (downthread...) (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Dood Abides

      I posted a rather longish metacomment, with two parts.  The first part addresses the troll problem.

      It's here in the thread.  I'd appreciate any thoughts or feedback on it.

      Looks like quite a few comments here today pertain to the Troll issue...perhaps we could invest in a Trollfarm?  

      Never, never brave me, nor my fury tempt:
        Downy wings, but wroth they beat;
      Tempest even in reason's seat.

      by GreyHawk on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 04:00:08 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  meta: How to further cultivate the talent pool (24+ / 0-)

    What I would be interested in hearing about are ideas on how the Democratic 'farm team' system can be developed using Daily Kos.

    We have all star talent, but to have a good team we need more than just stars. How can the overall level of debate, quality of writing, and depth of political thought be nurtured on Daily Kos?

    That, for me, would be an interesting topic for meta Kos. Best of luck.

    •  Special area (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ademption

      I'm just thinking out loud, so take it for the rambling it is.

      I like your question, and the first idea I had was a "special" diary section... Right now, anyone can just up and write a diary, which for the most part is obviously awesome and the whole point. But in conjunction with that, I'm thinking of a place on the site where your diaries would be read and judged by a human being (or beings) before being accepted or denied. Each diarist could only submit to this area infrequently, wouldn't want to overload the reviewers (who could be FPers, volunteers, ... ?). But it would be known that if you wanted your diary put in that area, it had better be pretty good. And conversely, if you did make it through, it would be featured in some prominent way on the FP.

      Also, there could be another kind of "special" diary once a week or two, started by an FPer, where the comments would be truly moderated (that is, reviewed before going public). But this would be pretty time and labor intensive.

      Anyway, just what came to me first.

      If trickle down economics is not working for you, obviously the wealthy are not pissing hard enough.

      by Still Thinking on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 05:22:07 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  you're suggesting a moderated blog (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Jules Siegel, grayslady

        which is (1) a lot of work for the moderators (2) nothing like the DKos community (3) very limiting in what one says and how.  What makes DKos so great is the freedom here.  What detracts from DKos now is that so many are concerned with instilling more definitions, more rules, more order.  Enough all ready.  For heaven's sake, folks, stop gazing at navels and get back to the business at hand -- challenging the MSM and the out-of-touch Washington elite and working to support progressive candidates!

        -6.75, -5.79

        "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." Edmund Burke

        by edgery on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 07:22:18 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Sounds like the place to be. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    x, dkmich

    Also thanks for pushing the "Demotarian" angle, there have been some excellent spin-off discussions including Cato's response, over the last day or so and everything has been surprisingly civil.

    Inflation: n: an increase in the volume of money + credit relative to available goods and services. NCO

    by OregonCoast on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 01:16:21 AM PDT

  •  Well Said (0+ / 0-)

    Or at least it will be!

    In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. - George Orwell

    by Tuba Les on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 01:16:34 AM PDT

  •  CSPAN will have MetaKos live (9+ / 0-)

    CSPAN had decided to go live on Friday with coverage that will include the YKOS panels on Progressive Players, The CIA Leak Case and then MetaKos.

    LINK TV will have Markos' keynote up shortly as well - they are providing "quick turnaround video coverage of YearlyKos.  Videos will be posted at www.linktv.org/yearlykos as soon as they are available. In-depth conference session coverage will be streamed at Fora.Tv (with searchable chapter headings, transcripts, etc)."

    and this is all in addition to Air America streaming, and all the great coverage on PoliticsTV and Young Turks websites.

    taking off media team hat for a moment - both Gina and Markos was amazing tonight - wow!

    YearlyKos Convention Media Coordinator media.yearlykos@gmail.com

    by siun on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 01:18:25 AM PDT

    •  Is it just me or is anyone else a bit (6+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      nio, eyama, Buffalo Girl, tvb, edgery, phemme texxii

      uncomfortable with MetaKos being on CSPAN?  My first reaction was to be happy that the big issues of the blogosphere would get media play, but now I'm wondering if it might not turn too much into airing our dirty laundry on tv.  

      I'm not there, I can't help steer that conversation, but I thought I'd mention it because that particular panel is vulnerbale to being spun, misrepresented, lied about, twisted and so forth.  

      •  They already do all those things (0+ / 0-)

        The regular media already lies, distorts, and smears blogs like this.  

        Why not have a yearly Kos panel get some exposure?  We can only gain credibility in the "grown-up media's" eyes, and the exposure might get some less internet-savvy geezers to check out dailykos.

        2000-2008: The Eric Cartman Presidency

        by scottman on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 02:56:01 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  YK isn't my worry, a MetaKos panel is (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          phemme texxii

          I love all the exposure YK is getting, that is just fabulous.  That can be done equally well by choosing to air either of the other two panels at that time, The Culture of Journalism:Getting the Story Out There or Healthcare.

          It's MetaKos specifically that concerns me.  Don't get me wrong, I'm not shrieking it'll be a disaster, I just wanted to point out it could boomerang.  The metadiaries exist because we as a community can't agree, have an issue with each other and need to hash it out.  That's a beautiful thing, but by definition it's for the blogging community, the insiders.  People might not use company manners so to speak.

          On another note, will Armando's absence from the panel be discussed as a part of the event?

          •  I'm not very meta-active on dkos... (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Catte Nappe, Wary

            ...but I think we could always counter any bad press about a meta-squabble with "We debate amongst ourselves, whereas Republicans repeat the party lines passed down to them."

            2000-2008: The Eric Cartman Presidency

            by scottman on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 03:45:15 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Did I miss something? (0+ / 0-)

            Where is Armando? What happened?

            America Freedom to Fascism Be a solution not a problem Loosely Twisted

            by Loosely Twisted on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 11:11:20 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  A troll made public Armando's real name & (0+ / 0-)

              the law firm, he works for.  Armando has decided not to blog anymore.

              http://www.dailykos.com/...

              "A child miseducated is a child lost" John F. Kennedy

              by Pam from Calif on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 11:16:02 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Make that 'we suspect a troll.' (0+ / 0-)

                As pointed out elsewhere, any sharp "oppo"rator, with a little luck, could have pulled out that information. It was basic detective work: One good hunch (is "armando" a real first name?) and bingo! there it all was. We have no proof that this was an "inside job," just a suspicion.

                Opposition research is not pleasant business, but it is a fact of life. We don't have to like it, but we do have to accept that a certain self-vigilance is the price of posting in public forums.

                Good will ultimately come of this whole episode, not only for the community but for armando the individual as well. Internal witch hunts, however, will damage dkos in a way that an "outing" never can. Let's call those off now.

  •  Meta Kos (9+ / 0-)

    So if you went to a panel on meta Kos, what would you want to hear about?

    Er, How to create your own netroots organization for a particular cause?

    For example, John Activist thinks issue X is the most important issue ever. While John loves the Daily Kos, he would rather go off on his own and concentrate on that one issue. Luckily, he attended the Meta Kos panel which discussed the lessons learned in creating and maintaining the Daily Kos site, how to target a sympathetic audience, how to word your message to expand your base, how to approach those in power to enlist them in your cause, etc & etc.

    Either the above, or instructions on how to clone you.

    •  is the software kos runs on available? (0+ / 0-)

      The technology that supports the discussion has been modified, hasn't it?  Are the modifications available?  In terms of the previous post- if the modified software is available, john can start up a sub-site that has the effectiveness of kos but now focussed on a new area.

  •  Just right balance of humility and confidence (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Avila, x, mikenlola

    And it will also make a good handout for typers and spellcheckers.

    Inspiring and give the volunteers lots of attention and share our gratitude from back home.

    The first year is always the hardest and they have invented the wheel, now they can evaluate and pass off to next years volunteers but they are a credit to us all.

    PaintyKat

    I donated to ePluribus Media. Support citizen journalism!

    by PaintyKat on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 01:23:21 AM PDT

  •  Dkos Podcasting + Think Tank + SCOTUS (9+ / 0-)

    MSOC has been doing some mp3 files...(could start there before goin to video).

    For example: SusanG's Booknotes; McJoan interviews Jon Tester, etc.

    A weekly Political Show - The McKos Group (run on a high traffic day) or a weekly "inside news" cast - like the ole "This Week in Baseball."

    How 'bout a Kos Think Tank. A lot of smart people hang out here.

    In a couple weeks, SCOTUS ajourns.  no resignations are expected, but ya never know - couldn't a "group" scheme up a fight strategy?  To many, late hour, ad hoc movements, and then everybody gets upset  in the end.

  •  MetaKos (21+ / 0-)

    If I were lucky enough to be in Vegas to attend that panel, I'd expect to hear discussion of the structure/format and "policies" (including ethical  and privacy policies) of the site (e.g. related to censorship, how you see your role, advertising, appropriate use of your and other frontpager's power), as well as your plans/goals for the future as the site continues to expand (e.g. archiving/search/categorization issues, pros/cons of possibly making it more hierarchical or topical, etc.).  You might also discuss technology issues.

    And, finally, most important of all to me, discussion of how to ensure the site will remain in the realm of "open source politics" -- that is, from degenerating into extensions of "the establishment" or "the mainstream media".

    (-7.75, -6.05).   Life is like this analogy...

    by shock on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 01:34:21 AM PDT

    •  Also (13+ / 0-)

      Given that Chris Bowers and SusanG will be on the panel, you might also have a discussion about how you see DailyKos in relation to other blogs on the liberal side of the blogosphere.  How can they interact more and harness their combined "people power" (while maintaining their own "individual characters" without watering all of them down into a single "echo chamber" and without turning into a sort of cartel)?  (As just one example: perhaps the liberal blogosphere could agree on a set of semantic categories for posts or a meta-tagging scheme that all sites could share to make things consistent and easier to search/share.) What technological innovations can help?  (i.e., give us techies a wish list!)

      (-7.75, -6.05).   Life is like this analogy...

      by shock on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 01:48:26 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Love this idea...Another one... (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        roonie, Avila, davelf2, Sharon in MD

        Same way Jerome and a few other wrote a policy paper on alternative energy, someone here has suggested the same thing for other topics.  Imagine every day people helping to write policy as opposed to Exxon and Cheney's secret corporate cabal.  Goes with the think tank idea... Coupled with how to join forces with other liberal blogs - we could draft Kos to run for Pres.  

        ....although the future is unknown, it will not be unblogged. David D. Perlmutter

        by dkmich on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 02:20:46 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Think tank is intriguing; use media, image work. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Gram E

          1. Instead of frontpagers, we could have "Thinkers" who would be nominated by kossacks with final panel determined by Markos.

          2.  "Thinkers" could solicit questions or issues and kick them around among themselves and come up with papers that could be presented to the MEDIA in the form of press conference type events.This has been one of my thoughts all along, to get the best Kossacks out there on CSpan and other media, talking, being seen for the bright, dedicated progressives they are.

          3.  The Dems have an image problem because we are portrayed as "radicals" (not bad in itself, but it is also used in the media to describe foreign terrorists!) or "flaming liberals" implying we would be destructive if in majority. That could so easily be changed as YK is doing that even now.

          ....But there's something bubbling (up) in America that will be reflected at the polls. --John Kerry 5/31/6

          by Gorette on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 08:52:05 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  What will happen if we lose the net (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Gram E, javelina, lizah, paige, imabluemerkin

      neutrality site???  Rep. Slaughter? was back with an update saying REpublicans were caving in to ATT ,etc.

      ....although the future is unknown, it will not be unblogged. David D. Perlmutter

      by dkmich on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 02:17:52 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  what a night (9+ / 0-)

    I'm in my hotel room at the Riviera, and I have to say, it was an amazing day.  I checked in this morning, and since it was pretty early there weren't too many people around.  I went to the Pacific Coast caucus, and the room was packed.  Then, the keynote was standing room only!  It was amazing to see everyone there.  A great start, and the real stuff hasn't even begun.  Great job everyone!

  •  MetaKos (9+ / 0-)

    Why there is a need for DailyKos, the future uses/abuses of a site like DailyKos, and why it matters. Why bringing people back into the political process is important. What attempts are being made/will be made to silence metablogs and how to fight back.

    Some thoughts.

    utahgirl

  •  Bravo! (6+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Lahdee, Avila, OLinda, javelina, lizah, dkmich
    I heard you on The Majority Report, & you have hit your stride, my man!  You are Smokin'!

    An offshoot of your Libertarian Democrats post  engendered a largely reasoned discussion thread worthy of Dkos

    CATO writer answers Markos on "Libertarian Democrats"
    by ztn [Subscribe]
    Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 03:18:42 PM PDT

    Markos's Libertarian Dem diary from yesterday garnered a lot of attention from Libertarian Blogesphere.

    I found a thoughtful article from CATO writers particulary interesting, helpful and worthy of attention from Kossacks.

    http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/....

    I hope you'll have time to read it.  You started it, you trailblazer, you.

    Hope you're having the time of your life in LV.  You deserve some righteous good times.  Have fun!  

    "The last third is usually backwash." Stephen Colbert

    by x on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 01:39:53 AM PDT

  •  Si se puede! (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    x, proudprogressiveCA

    As Cesar Chavez use to say Si se puede!  Show them what latinos can do! nice speech!

  •  About panel Agenda (7+ / 0-)

    One topic I would be interested in seeing as part of the panel discussion would be the role the Daily Kos is proposing to take in restoring power-based meaning to progressive language - while we are comfortable talking/preaching to the choir in this environment, what about outside the DK circle? The value of the book Crashing the Gate is a good example to bring up, but what are other possibilities that could be affected by an increasing number of progressives who are proud to be called "liberal?" In short: Unapologetically taking back the language that defines us.

    By the way, congratulations on a very good keynote address.

    You know you're right because god thinks like you and you want the rest of the people to emulate god too.

    by Ayanora on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 01:44:40 AM PDT

  •  Go beyond the gate (6+ / 0-)

    This panel discussion should address how dKos and other blog sites should go beyond cyberspace in reaching other progressives.

    There is great work and strategizing done via our laptops and desktops. But how do we influence the technophobes and those who don't have a computer. Yes, everyone should have one in 2006, but there lots of people don't or won't get one. (My mother is a prime example.) When our message and the strategies go beyond the blogosphere and become part of the general discussion in U.S. homes, then we truly have kicked down the gate and gotten into the consciousness of the people -- ALL people.

    Yeah, I'm a big thinker. :)

    -7.38, -5.23 One day we ALL will know the truth about the 2000 presidential election. God help us all.

    by CocoaLove on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 01:56:11 AM PDT

  •  Re: Meta (10+ / 0-)

    Stick with the core goal.  Elect Democrats.  Effective Democrats.  In my mind that means Liberal Democrats that aren't AFRAID, to offend, confuse or frighten the average, simplistic, undereducatated, Fox watching, R voter.

    We have to educate the numb, intolerant right leaners in our country who vote for Dadddy, even though he's a Bad Daddy who inflicts harm.  How?  No Idea.  I am neither sophisticated nor tolerant enough to be effective here. Anyone else?

    "Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans." J. Lennon

    by trashablanca on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 01:56:44 AM PDT

  •  Great speech :) (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Avila, phemme texxii

    Answering your question about what might be good to discuss at the meta-Kos panel:

    There are a lot of us who post diaries.  But we are kind of lost in the weeds as to what people on DailyKos . . . or for that matter DailyKos itself (meaning you) . . . want to have posted.

    We just post stuff.  Hi, I'm liberal.  This is funny!  This is interesting!  But if there is a way to direct what we write about that will help DailyKos, then we would like to know.

    That is the goal: to help people-powered politics.

    "In the beginning the universe was created. This has been widely criticized and generally regarded as a bad move." -- Douglas Adams

    by LithiumCola on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 01:57:11 AM PDT

  •  that's beautiful, Kos (9+ / 0-)

    would have loved to have seen/heard this.  thank you for posting it.

    This is our moment. We have to take hold of it and ride it to victory.

    And we will.

    I believe we will.

  •  Markos...Bravo, man...that is a... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    OLinda, blue armadillo

    powerful, powerful piece of work.

  •  Inspirational, Markos. (4+ / 0-)

    Really wonderful stuff... it needs to be distributed as widely as possible. People need the kind of hope you are showing!

    Climate change, peak oil, nuclear proliferation, human rights abuses, electoral fraud, and on and on... or the mystery prize?

    by lmd71 on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 02:10:30 AM PDT

    •  Oh, on the meta subject... (0+ / 0-)

      Is there a way that TU status could be refused?  I don't have it at the moment but I have had, and as a foreign member (and one who never ventures into wingnut blogland), I often don't feel equipped or informed enough to identify potential trolls.

      Climate change, peak oil, nuclear proliferation, human rights abuses, electoral fraud, and on and on... or the mystery prize?

      by lmd71 on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 02:14:19 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Just use it to read the funny trolls (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        phemme texxii

        I have TU and enjoy giving out 4s, I rarely troll rate anyone usless it is truly blatant. In this flat medium, sometimes it's hard to tell if it's a differing point of view or a troll, and I hate to stop real debate. It may also be that being over 50, trolls are more like unruly kids to me, and of no threat.  That said , Markos, I'm disabled and home 95% of the time and usually hanging around somewhere if there is ever anything I can do to help.

        -8.63 -7.28 He was carrying a skateboard on his back, a red rose in his fist, and the war.

        by OneCrankyDom on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 02:26:49 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Good speech (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    OLinda, dkmich, blue armadillo

    Great job, kos, it was a wonderful speech and thanks for sharing it on here. From a gray hair, I just want to say thank you for what you are doing and what you have done in providing a forum for "people-powered" politics. I'm an old hippie (NOT dirty), but I'm a pragmatic girl and I think what you've started is historical. You all have a fun at the Woodstock of the west, and then get back to work!

  •  Colbert reference (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ebbak, Magnifico, TheBlaz

    is pure gold :)  Wonderful speech, very clear and concise.

    Re: "Meta" issues? The 2 troll-rating limit is making it difficult to deal with trolls. I'm not a numbers person, but it seems like the current method for managing ratings, etc....  isn't working very well.

    Lastly - I hope you have a chance to take a moment and "soak up the goodness" in Las Vegas this week. Take a minute to really look around and see the good that you have done,

    Lisa :)

    I don't care what Armando does for a living.

    by Boston to Salem on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 02:13:24 AM PDT

  •  MetaKos (10+ / 0-)

    Key (and for MyDD and other parts of the blogosphere, too:

    More stories about ways to take action building precincts, helping candidates, nuts and bolts.

    "Action" diaries are too few and too frequently just "donate here" or "call your representative."

    Those are good things, but we need to grow up and show up.

    I went to crash the gate, found it ajar, but find little good guidance or help via the netroots.

    I think there should be a coordinated "Blogs closed for grassroots maintainence" day every so often. Just have the front page list things people can do away from the keyboard and screen.

    The day after the first one of those would probably have awesome after-action reports!

    Nice to meet you tonight, Markos, and thanks for asking.

  •  Josh TPM and Lieberman (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    dkmich

    I was surprised as hell when I just went over to TPM and read that Josh believes Lieberman will win, and that he really doesn't care. Once again Josh has lost a lil bit more of what respect he used to have from me. Kos, you are doing a great job, you are getting some great reviews out there, and even the wingers that I have seen writing from Vegas seem dissappointed that ykos isn't full of a bunch doped up, longhaired hippies running around like fools. Ykos is scaring them from what I can see so far. Keep it up !

    -8.63 -7.28 He was carrying a skateboard on his back, a red rose in his fist, and the war.

    by OneCrankyDom on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 02:16:09 AM PDT

    •  TPM not quite so bad (0+ / 0-)

      I just went over to read Josh's TPM piece.  It is much more wishy-washy than I would like, but I guess I am not as y as you are, OneCrankyDem, because I read the piece as a critique of Lieberman and as a tentative move by Josh toward supporting Lamont.

    •  I live in CT (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      coral, bleargh, ebbak, word is bond

      and I think that Josh is being pragmatic.  It will be the snowball's chance in hell type of odds for Lamont to defeat Lieberman -- not that he isn't giving it a valiant try and being Joe's worst nightmare in the process.

      What's more important is that we have three -- count 'em -- 3 -- Republicans in house seats who are very vulnerable and that's really where our money, time and effort should be focused.  Turning them out and getting Dems into those positions.

      For those who pay attention, that would be:

      Diane Farrell running against Chris Shays in CT-04

      Chris Murphy against Nancy Johnson in CT-05

      Joe Courtney against Rob Simmons in CT-02

      2nd CD watch website has faded away but here are links to the 4th CD watch website, http://www.shayswatch.com/ and the 5th CD watch site, http://cto5.net/  

      And here's the best overall site for connecting to what's going on in CT >>

      www.myleftnutmeg.com though it's very Lamont-centric at the moment.


  •  Don't fight the trolls (11+ / 0-)
    As sites get bigger, there's more and more emphasis on "finding/outing/punishing the trolls".

    This is deleterious in at least three ways:

    • it bites newbies who aren't trolls but who make even a single comment that seems trolling;
    • it wastes the community's time and effort on "troll-hunting", which reduces the time spent on real work: volunteering with the Democratic Party, energizing one's local community, or posting good diaries; and it results in lots of clutter as people respond (ad infinitum) to trolls with snark and recipes;
    • and it provokes people to ask for some in the community to be given extraordinary "troll-killing" powers, which leads to creating "levels" of "extra-trusted" users and to less grassroots equality and democracy.

    The heart of dKos is that anybody can post his or her opinion in a diary. But when the community is consumed (rightly or wrongly) with "getting trolls", we end up with suspicion and stratification.; we've all seen this numerous times in other online communities. dKos needs to be about crashing the gates, not about building walls to keep out soi-disant trolls.

    This has reached a head with the "outing" of Armando's real name. As ugly as that is, let's all resolve to not let the cure be worse than the disease.

    After 9/11, the Bush Administration eroded America's liberties in the name of "fighting the terrorists". Let's not undermine the grassroots purpose of dKos by a silly attempt, no mater how well-intentioned, to fight "trolls".

    See also this response to this diary.

    Accountability moment, my ass!

    by orthogonal on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 02:21:23 AM PDT

    •  Paranoid behaviors...n/t (0+ / 0-)

      ....although the future is unknown, it will not be unblogged. David D. Perlmutter

      by dkmich on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 02:26:07 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  'What is a troll' discussion more important than (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      d3n4l1, phemme texxii

      another quick site change, imo.  Troll rating don't get rid of troll diaries, that was more of a problem the other night because so many were on their way to YK.

      I wouldn't mind a broad discussion on the rating system.  I'd like to have agree/disagree, funny, intelligent etc. type distinctions.  I don't think we've had enough time with 2 per day troll ratings to really judge its effectiveness, and I think we should remember what prompted that change in the first place.

      I think the "troll hunting" was getting out of control.  While it's important to keep detractors off the site I agree that it gets out of hand and focuses more attention on them.  Troll ratings are necessary, and too many threats of violence get by, but a lot of time and energy gets expended when it doesn't require it.

      •  I don't troll rate much (0+ / 0-)

        but occasionally there is an obvious disruptive troll who posts more than one trollish diary meant only to inflame, then posts comments meant only to inflame. That kind of troll needs to be heavily troll rated. How will someone who is constantly disruptive ever get banned if we only have 2 troll ratings, which seem to be suspended for 24 hrs. after the second one is given meaning we have less than 2 per 24 hrs.

        •  Troll ratings (0+ / 0-)

          that are awarded by consensus may help.  If you troll rate someone that has been also rated by several others, you don't lose one of troll rates.

          Most people are idiots... But don't tell them. It'll spoil all the fun for those of us who aren't.

          by d3n4l1 on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 03:28:32 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  clever idea (0+ / 0-)

            I have no idea what the issues are programming wise, how feasible anything is.

            Another idea:  Maybe MetaKos could get into more details about sitespecific data.  During the discussion on whether or not FP posts were too long I learned that statistics show most people don't get through.  I never would have thought that, indeed I had assumed the opposite.  But I was assuming, and we all know where that goes.  I think our suggestions could be improved as all of us site users learn more about how the site is run.

            •  If I knew the structure (0+ / 0-)

              of the current rating system I could figure it out, even multithreaded over several systems.

              Most people are idiots... But don't tell them. It'll spoil all the fun for those of us who aren't.

              by d3n4l1 on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 04:00:13 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  Sure,but troll rating doesn't solve troll diaries (0+ / 0-)

          You can't have a party if noone shows.

          Then the problem with comments is that there's a wide degree of opinion on what is "inflammatory", and that range of opinion was causing more problems than the original post.

          Someone who is constantly disruptive will get what's coming to them.  It might not happen between 2:30 and 3 a.m. the first time they post, but it will.

          •  my example is Andy Kreist (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            tvb

            an obvious disruptive troll.Would he still be here if we'd had only 2 per how ever long it is? Because in between his trolling (say the next morning) he posted fairly innocuous comments that garnered him some recommends, thereby offsetting those previous troll ratings. He could then be an obvious troll some more later - so under this system he could  seemingly do that forever.

            •  I think 'whatever!' at least once per thread (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Still Thinking

              I think we can afford to do that a bit more.  

              There are people whose opinion and contributions to dkos I respect, but we disagree on who might or might not be an obvious troll.  If they're a serious troll and taking the time to stay undercover than the disruptive effect they have on the community is limited.  When they want to accomplish their goal and become more disruptive, the comments get troll rated or the user is banned.

              There are a lot of hardcore users here, no troll will last too long.

              Maybe 2 troll ratings are enough.  Perhaps the delay in hiding/banning isn't a delay,  but because too few TU's agree the person in question is a troll.  I'm not being specific to you or your example.

    •  orthogonal (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      tlh lib

      I respect your opinion.  I believe we're talking about separate issues in the diary you linked to, which I wrote with one intention only:  We need a better way to get diaries and comments with real life info hidden.  anyone's real life info.

      to reiterate, it's not about troll-hunting (check my ratings history if you doubt my intentions).  it's not about fighting trolls - rather, the specific behavior of "outing" RL info.

      thanks for your consideration of this.  I understand where you're coming from.  what I'm concerned about isn't a troll problem.  it's a specific behavior intended to harass and intimidate, and a request for mandatory tip-jars and/or other guidance on this matter.

  •  Thanks for posting your speech, Markos (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Avila, javelina, dkmich, ebbak, phemme texxii

    I hope someone in the group is doing her/his own investigative journalism vis-a-vis the group dynamic, particularly the demographics of the attendees.  As others have commented, some media types may be disappointed that most kossaks look profoundly...well, ordinary.  That's the point.  

  •  Nice way to wake up in the morning. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Joes Steven

    Won't be needing coffee.  

    Most people are idiots... But don't tell them. It'll spoil all the fun for those of us who aren't.

    by d3n4l1 on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 02:49:46 AM PDT

  •  MetaKos (5+ / 0-)

    I agree with some of the previous posters that a discussion of how Kos works--how the community itself is maintained--would be the appropriate topic, and it would be fascinating as well.

    I have to say, being an IT person, I find the design of the site to be outstanding and the technology you use is cutting edge and very well applied.  It is applied exactly where it is needed, not in a "bells and whistles" style and it is effective.  I have shown it to people as a great example of how to use AJAX.

    As for people who want to learn about organizing, "how" to crash the gate, try Rules for Radicals by Saul Alinsky and Organizing for Social Change by the Midwest Academy.

    Wish I could be there...  Excellent speech by the way.  It's OUR government, OUR country, and we want it back!!!

    Peace in a world free of Religion, Peace in a world where everyone gets Heaven... -- Toni Halliday

    by Wintermute on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 02:50:43 AM PDT

  •  The GOP infastructure and our lack thereof. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    phemme texxii

    It's one of my pet-peeves.  They have spent decades creating thinktanks, the K-Street project, Fox News, radio, and print media.

    While we're still trying to be fair and balanced, they are braisenly partisan.  It doesn't matter what we say if no one's listening.

    I think we need to stop pinning our hopes on the very next election cycle, which is why I support Dean's 50 state strategy.  We need an infastructure.  We need pioneers.  We need rich partisans.

    Busby forced the GOP to spend money, time and resources, and they almost failed.  That is money, time and resources they no longer have to apply to the next district.  More, more more.

    •  What's 'grand' about any of this? (0+ / 0-)

      "GOP" isn't just another abbreviation. It's a Republican talking point. If you're ready to start dismantling the Republican infrastructure, not repeating their talking points uncritically is a good way to begin.

      •  Um, it's quicker than typing 'Republican'? (0+ / 0-)

        Sometimes three letters are just  three letters.

        •  Then type these 3: R's (0+ / 0-)

          Daily Kos is a website for Democratic and progressive politics. It is fair to assume that every reader will know what "R's" or "RNC" stands for, and neither abbreviation blandishes the object the way "GOP" does.

          If you would tar them, why perfume them first? Stick with the neutral identifiers and let the facts do the rest.

          •  Yawn. (0+ / 0-)

            I am quite content that no one on this site will take me saying GOP as my repeating Republican talking points.  Thanks for the info.

            •  I am amused to read this latest justification (0+ / 0-)

              for repeating a Republican talking point: everyone will know I don't mean it. We have a way to indicate irony: put the word/phrase/abbreviation in quotes.

              Further, if laziness were justification enough for using "GOP," then we should expect to read "death tax" rather than "estate tax" in dkos diaries and comments. One fewer letter, easier to type.

              Yet we don't.

              Why is that? Because words have meaning. Also power, which is easily multiplied with just a little bit of care.

  •  Meta panel (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jnfr, phemme texxii

    The meta panelists could spend the entire period calling each other trolls and demanding that the YearlyKos organizers ban the others.  It would make Baby MetaJesus laugh.

  •  Stress this concept. (6+ / 0-)

    Technology allows each and every one of us to be a leader, and allows us to support our new leaders wherever they may emerge.

    I started my blog, News Corpse, as a direct result of my experience at dKos. I didn't set out to seek attention or to promulgate my views. I was just drawn to the idea of being able to express myself. It was more cathartic than anything else.

    Now I'm getting about 3,000 visitors a day. I know that's small in Kosian terms, but it's 2,985 more people than I'll run into at the coffee house I hang out at. And if just 100 Kossacks (out of 70,000) build sites like mine, that's almost another dKos. The exponential growth of this message machine is mind boggling. And that's where I see the most value.

    It's like bands that never really got very famous themselves (i.e. Velvet Underground, Joy Division, Pixies) but got thousands of teenagers to pick up instruments and take up residence in their garages and start their own bands. As an artist, I would rather have that kind of legacy than being the next Hockney.

  •  Ultra-meta, mecha meta, arch meta? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mkfarkus, tvb

    I'm fairly new to all this, and my questions are probably representative of a large segment of people- I like DKos because of the massive amount of people within the blog/community, and from what I can tell it is the best designed & most useable site of its kind. I'm not much of a techie, but am guessing this is because of Scoop(?)

    My concern & question is, if there ever comes a point at which Daily Kos the site/ the community expands or needs to expand far beyond the vision/objectives of its creator (you, Markos Moulitsas-Zuniga,) what would happen? Would there be spin-off sites?

    I ask because, as someone new to the blogosphere, I fear a progressive splintering. We seem to lose elections because of a lack of unity. From what I have been able to discern, there have been past instances in which groups of bloggers left due to ideological differences, such as over advertisements & women's issues. Whether or not this is the absolute most woman-friendly blog/site, I choose to focus my attentions and time here because this seems to be the hub of progressive action & discussion.

    Finally I can not thank you, Markos, enough for this forum, dKos, and the effect it is having on progressive politics and beyond. The future potential is truly unlimited.

  •  Block abusive comments (0+ / 0-)

    but give everyone the ability to see them or not, and also the ability to check a comment as abusive.
    Abusers should be identified but not banned or silenced.  They just need feedback.

    Also, the rules for what is a troll or not should be made more distinctive and put right up in a troll-raters face when they are troll rating.  Too many people troll rate simply because they disagree with someones viewpoint.  Possibly require a comment for a troll rating explaining why they are troll rating, like links to other posts, although people change even day by day "having a bad day" and it isn't particularly fair either.

    Have a TU system based on how accurate the troll-ratings have been by consensus.  If you have a person that troll-rates irradically and others aren't troll rating the same people, that person maybe shouldn't be doing it.  A troll rating should be reversed not by a Recommendation but by a "cancel troll rating".  Your system for enhancing signals should not the be same one you use to clean up the signal.

    Like voting is to the system of democracy, the voting for troll rating system could be the most serious detriment to DailyKos now.

    I have a need personal to express my incongruencies with the masses here, if not to understand myself and others, but also to learn maybe where I am wrong by expressing what I already understand.  Sometimes I do that in a very contradictory manner.  If I can't do that, if people can't do that, they can't learn crap.  I do not get troll rated often personally.  I've been saavy and possibly recognizable, though barely, enough that people don't do it.  But often, not always and not a majority of the time, but precariously often enough, I see it happen to new people.  

    Perhaps the early adapters who tend to be internet vocal because they are not n00bs that could be assets have already been scared away. You want to build a modern progressive infrastructure don't you?  10 years ago stupid games were more accepted in a chat room.  Today abuse is simply not tollerated.  You can do a light search in the blogosphere and find people who are clearly good Democrats that have been banned or pushed away from here.

    If you express a view that is unpopular or contrary to the "recommended flow" of the site you can get troll-rated and even black listed.  That is not Democracy.  If the site does that only 10% of the time then you have a disenfranchisement of 10% of the voices, and I know that is not what you are about.

    I know you want to push progressive politics and have an environment where progressive ideas are nurtured.  But every gardener knows that if you simply give your plants miracle grow and water, with no stress to make the plants stretch and grow good roots and no chill, your plant will not be prepared to survive disease (like republican ideology) when it does come (which it will if you're selling these plants) as well as it can, and your blooms and fruit may be be what you had wished.
    I'm not saying freeze the plant and dehydrate it, but don't baby it.

    Road signs affect how people drive.  A rating system tuned propperly can affect peoples attitudes toward ideas.

    Most people are idiots... But don't tell them. It'll spoil all the fun for those of us who aren't.

    by d3n4l1 on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 03:20:49 AM PDT

    •  Also (0+ / 0-)

      The TU system works much better now because 1 person cannot slaughter dozens of innocents at their whim.  They have to think about it first.  The only people that are complaining are the ones who need to learn to stop and think or need to find a sense of power some other way in their lives.

      Most people are idiots... But don't tell them. It'll spoil all the fun for those of us who aren't.

      by d3n4l1 on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 03:23:08 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  1 person could never slaughter anyone (0+ / 0-)

        1 recommend can cancel out the attempts of 3 people to silence a voice.

        1 troll rating never put a comment into the hidden comments.

        Too many people flipped out over troll ratings that they deserved for trollish posts.

        There were several troll posts that could not be eliminated recently because not enough TU's were available with enough troll ratings. It is not an imaginary problem.

        •  symantecs (0+ / 0-)

          sometimes it only takes one person to start an unneccessary troll rating storm.  

          Most people are idiots... But don't tell them. It'll spoil all the fun for those of us who aren't.

          by d3n4l1 on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 09:06:33 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  no evidence (0+ / 0-)

            One person cannot slaughter anyone. If one person starts a ball rolling, it's still the group that slaughters, not that one person, and many people have said that they did not troll rate based upon what other people did. There's no evidence that any unnecessary troll rating storm was ever begun by one person.

            It's semantics. Symantec is a computer software company.

    •  And when I speak of chat rooms (0+ / 0-)

      I am speaking of the old established rooms that have been around for more than a decade with the same people.  Not a myspace spinoff or other which aren't any different than 10 years ago.  They're usually found on IRC on the old networks.

      Most people are idiots... But don't tell them. It'll spoil all the fun for those of us who aren't.

      by d3n4l1 on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 03:26:00 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Tone and respect (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      tvb

      have a lot to do with it.  If you disagree with a "popular" opinion, you are much more likely to get a reasonable response to your view if you present your arguments in a respectful way, rather than insinuating that those who hold different views are idiots.  (I note your sig line, for example.)  Troll ratings for respectful disagreement actually are extremely rare on this site.  But when people become abusive, arrogant, know-it-all, and profane, they are often properly chastised by the majority, who prefer adult debate to name-calling and ego-battles.

      Yet it is not our part to master all the tides of the world, but to do what is in us for the succour of those years wherein we are set... -- Gandalf

      by dnta on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 08:17:00 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  My signature line is intentionally ambiguous (0+ / 0-)

        It is actually a quote I found quoted on a room in a very republican establishment.  I often write things that one needs to really think about to understand.  A cursory reading often doesn't make the grade with me, and I understand the price I pay for that.  

        writing things in italics is often used instead of placing quotes around a quotation

        But my tone has nothing to do with abuse in response to it.  

        Most people are idiots... But don't tell them. It'll spoil all the fun for those of us who aren't.

        by d3n4l1 on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 09:09:27 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  To clarify the tagline (0+ / 0-)

        I live in just outside of Sugarland in an area where Tom Delay is from.  Who do you think I could attribute the writing of this quote to?

        But the ambiguous portion serves a purpose.  I find it is interesting how many people have a mob mentality and assume they are being insulted when they are not.  If they can rise above the assumption that I am not refering to them and realize that someone else is, that it is a quote, congratulations.  It is my hope that people here are more intelligent than that, and my desire to challenge them with that understanding if they don't see it at first.

        Most people are idiots... But don't tell them. It'll spoil all the fun for those of us who aren't.

        by d3n4l1 on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 09:13:03 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Excellent speech, kos... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Sharon in MD

    My "meta" suggestion might not be "meta", but here it is anyway:  

    How do we do more to harness the potential energy of all of the people who read and comment and diary at dKos?

    What can be done on, or with, the site to make more of that energy real, and a positive force in the public sphere, instead of potential?

  •  Danger. (9+ / 0-)

    I would like to see the meta-Kos panel address the structural strengths and weaknesses of the "people-powered movement".  I would like to hear a discussion and planning session on how to protect the weak points of that structure.  My fear is that the movement is so concentrated in one tree (the World Wide Web) that it would die if that tree is killed or somehow co-opted (otoh, the Web may now be such a healthy forest that no pruning or logging is likely to harm its overall health).

    That's the most important "meta" for me:  making sure our nest isn't chopped down.  Making sure that each of the following salient points remains true:

    And now, that talent has an outlet. It can no longer be marginalized.

    Technology allows each and every one of us to be a leader, and allows us to support our new leaders wherever they may emerge.  

    Let's make sure of that, by actively changing and securing the structure through which we engage each other and the world.

    YEARLY.KOS - Rebirth of a nation! Make the most of it!

    by Yellow Canary on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 03:27:47 AM PDT

    •  Meta Kos (4+ / 0-)

      I agree with Yellow Canary.  We need to take a good hard look at the form and structure of the community to see where it will fail under stress as a system.  I love your speech, Markos and can hear the applause already.  Good on ya, as the Aussies, say, but we need to re affirm the links the brought us together in the first place.  dKos could easily become a cliquish place, instead of an on-line symbol of the "Big Tent party" we all want the Democrats to be.  "The answer to the problems of Democracy is MORE democracy," said Edward Abbey.  Please talk about how to widen and deepen the democracy of the site, our communities and our beloved country.

      Thanks.

    •  net neutrality (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Yellow Canary

      The attack on net neutrality is just the first of many assaults to come on people-centered, web-organized politics. There are many many forces in this country and around the world, forces that wield a lot of economic and political power, that have always arrayed themselves against the workers and the ordinary people of this country. Those forces will strike against any attempt to limit their power or take back control of the government.

      It has been that way throughout the history of this nation, and it's no joke - people have died trying to break or at least lessen the power of money and corruption in the government of the states and the nation.

      I don't want everyone to be paranoid, but I do want everyone to think carefully and strategically about how to protect this still very fledgling movement.

      I watched Markos' speech via the AAR feed, and it was most excellent. It said exactly what needed to be said, and kos is a clear, compelling, charismatic speaker. Don't go taking any small planes, ok?

  •  I would like to see (0+ / 0-)

    Different recommend lists, by category, or filter by snark or meta, or voting, candidates, global warming, or corruption, or abramov.  Shrug.  Or maybe just a way to see more of the recommended diaries.  

    Most people are idiots... But don't tell them. It'll spoil all the fun for those of us who aren't.

    by d3n4l1 on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 03:31:11 AM PDT

  •  Forget the intro (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bree, lizah, Catte Nappe, blue armadillo

    The attendees know who you are, and the second sentence is more impactful as a lead-in.  

    Also, re meta, don't let it diverge into a discussion about trolls.  Instead, keep the focus on the important things, like diary rescue, and (more generally) how to keep the important information from disappearing so quickly.  

  •  meta (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    musing graze, Catte Nappe

    "the role of the minority opinion".

    Is it being heard enough?

    Check out my podcast of piano improvisations.

    by tunesmith on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 03:36:37 AM PDT

  •  Difference btw this movement and GOP (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jnfr

    is this one is out in the open and has been since the Great Awakening of 2000.  The GOP had the luxury of working pretty much behind the scenes for decades, behind the back of the country, and coming to 'power' through a sort of stealth campaign.  We don't have that luxury. Everything, or nearly everything, we do, say, and plan, is out there in the open for anyone to see.  They're out in the open now, too, but that wasn't always the case.  The created a network that is still pretty much hidden from view.

    Is that Meta?  I dunno, just something I've been wanting to throw out there for a while and this seemed like the place to do it.

    "The legislature's job is to write law. It's the executive branch's job to interpret law." --George W. Bush, Austin, Texas, Nov. 22, 2000

    by littlesky on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 03:39:34 AM PDT

  •  Meta Kos (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Sharon in MD

    There was a group in KC trying to create a meta women's group.  Their thing was women's issues filtered through kind of a think tank application.  The problem?  They couldn't go after some of the more meatier issues because it might have offended some of the women's groups!  And they had funding out the wazoo! And it was moving to the cliques that women tend to create.  Ugh!

    But in Kos's favor, the meta seems to apply to progressive bloggers and people who are ready to review what politics should mean in our lives.  It has a ready made competition with all those wingers trying to push their "values" down all of our throats without any real meaningful debate.

    So meta in this case might mean
     1) meaningful debate in the political arena
     2) discussing where issues affect our lives and how
     3) providing a megaphone for ideas and outrage that the current media keeps away from us
     4) developing real understanding about what politics can and should mean to us
    and last but not least - getting away from this "silent majority" mythos.

  •  Amen, brother (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    GreyHawk

    You can't "unring" the bell of our awakening and springing into action.

    That sound you hear?  It's victory on the march.

    Bless you Marcos, and bless us all.

  •  Great speech! ...'Meta Kos' eh? OK. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    davelf2, bree, MO Blue

    First, a Site-Related idea, pertinent for the recent "troll-related outing" issue:

    SUGGESTION: Rotating 'SuperTU' role for expanded coverage during off-peak hours.

    Kos and the current FP'ers could select a bunch of names (perhaps folks who have expressed interest, or who have demonstrated wisdom and restraint) to create a sub-class of FP'er that has the ability to troll-rate unlimited comments, and to suppress diaries.  (as in perhaps adding a "drop list" to get a diary off the first 100 "recent" more quickly, or to de-recommend a dangerously trollish diary.

    Note to peeder: this would probably require a (hopefully minor) classification adjustment and sort filter).

    I suggest 5 to 10 folks who are not currently FP-status could be selected to serve as site troll moderators, in a position that lasts x amount of time. (My original comment suggested up to 25, but that may be too many.)  That way, users would have a period of time that they would serve their "office", just as the FP'ers do, and their role would be to provide coverage specifically for Troll War issues.

    This would enable coverage during off-peak hours, eliminate fears of a "class hierarchy" based on popularity or longetivity, and allow a few TUs occassional options at higher responsibility without becoming burdensome to the users or the site.

    That or some other form of increased, reliable administrative review is relevant, because "outing" anonymous blogstars will become a more focused weapon as the neoconservative base is further endangered.

    Second, more thoughts on "Meta" aspects:

    Special projects:  DailyKos has distinguished itself through the creation of subcontext features -- the Trollhouse Cookbook, for example, which helped fund the YearlyKos convention, or Kosmos: You are Here, which also benefited YearlyKos.  The convention itself is a special event -- a new step forward in the capacity of the blogs to reach directly beyond the information stream and create a hardwired connection to the political currents that carry the national lifeblood, giving it a much-needed infusion of people-power.  Then there's the onsite dKosopedia for rapid reference -- a tool for a site that's expanding and enhancing the definition of itself like a child growing rapidly through adolescence.  And who could forget the Engergize America effort?

    All these subcontextual topics, all important to the people, and all making a statement of sorts that enhances the core strength of the site, which is to enable the progressive people-powered political movement to find a voice and correct the injustice of a political machine and a media monstrosity gone wild. What else could be done?

    More informative subcontext topics.  We have some well informed folks who know more about issues with agriculture, organics, and healthy eating.  How about something that helps gather some of this knowledge together to help people make informed decisions, and to help folks better identify any b.s. shovelled their way legislatively?  

    What about healthcare and medicine, pharmaceuticals in general?  There've been some great pieces on the insance Prescription Drug Plan and the Medicare D Disaster.  Why not a semi-formal panel of dKos diarists on this, who may be able to help define a series of suggested alternatives similar to how Energize America was shaped?

    Regarding the media -- what about borrowing an idea from Stephen Colbert, and creating a "wall of shame" of sorts that explores collusion and sloppy reporting in the traditional media, identifying outlets and personalities that are explicitly shrill and failing to wholly represent the truth?  More importantly, the diarists focusing on this topic could investigate working out methods to work together with forward-thinking outlets -- perhaps even working out a crossposting agreement where some key posts that appear on dKos could also appear in the blogs of representative media, or come out in print editions on editorial pages using the appropriate blogname of the Kossackian diarist?

    That's all I've got for "meta" thoughts.  I'm going to sip some more coffee...have fun in LA!

    Never, never brave me, nor my fury tempt:
      Downy wings, but wroth they beat;
    Tempest even in reason's seat.

    by GreyHawk on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 03:53:36 AM PDT

    •  I like geeyhawk's idea (0+ / 0-)

      of highlighting a particularly untruthful or shrill jourlnalist and highlighting the misadventures.  Maybe they might get the message that facts matter.

      "In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act."-George Orwell

      by Babsnc on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 06:05:54 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I meant Greyhawk's ...sorry (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        GreyHawk

        "In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act."-George Orwell

        by Babsnc on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 06:07:19 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Heh. That's kind of a new breed. (0+ / 0-)

          Not quite a grey hawk, not quite a gyrefalcon...not quite a feathered jar of Grey Poupon...

          Thanks for replying.  I was getting the distinct impression my post was too long to be read.

          ;)

          Never, never brave me, nor my fury tempt:
            Downy wings, but wroth they beat;
          Tempest even in reason's seat.

          by GreyHawk on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 06:44:14 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Use of the passive voice gives the weakness away: (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      GreyHawk

      I suggest 5 to 10 folks who are not currently FP-status could be selected to serve as site troll moderators

      I want to know how and by whom this Justice League of dKos would be selected. Easy enough to say the cat should have a bell round its neck, but who will put it there?
      This isn't a petty detail. In fact it's an old question: Qui custodiet ipsos custodes?

      People who keep claiming for more authorities with more suppression power are in effect saying they don't trust the community. One came right out and said that the community "doesn't need" to see certain posts, and that made the hairs on the back of my neck stand up. Holy mackerel!

      What we need are more trusting users--kossacks who trust the community, in its collective wisdom, to keep dkos viable. That's all the wisdom needed, and always will be.

      •  Unfortunately, in an open community, you still (0+ / 0-)

        get trolls -- those who are purposely destructive -- just as you get "purists" and "visionaries" and "dreamers" and "hypocrites" and...the list goes on.

        The suggestion is to get folks who have a decent track record, who don't already have expanded abilities, to volunteer or be selected to serve brief stints with expanded capabilities to help with administrative protection against troll attacks in either comments or diaries -- nothing more or less.  And for this purpose, a "troll" could be defined with a restricted definition to be someone who is "outing" a poster or posting illegal / slanderous commentary only -- not CTs, not inflammatory remarks, etc.  Those items can be handled (or, not) by the community at large.

        How the selection is made, and for what duration, could simply be a matter of performing a statistical analysis of the past 6 months for certain criteria (presence during particular hours, consistency of posting, clarity, and a "fudge factor" to permit folks with troll-rated comments but only if the # and percentage vs. rec'd comments are less than x%).  Those criteria, particularly the last, would be tricky and somewhat arbitrary, but they would provide a set pool from which candidates for the rotating position could be chosen.  

        How often would someone serve?  How long?  Would it be a one-shot period of time until the pool is exhausted, or based on availability, or a combination depending upon what resources are available?  Aye, there's the rub...that's got to be an Administrative call, ideally with some input from others.

        The site has a life of its own, but the underlying foundation is what Markos is building; the site therefore is not "public domain" but simply "public oriented" and must, therefore, fall in line with Markos' vision and guidance.  That's what started and grew the site.  And that why some other sites have been spawned during pie fights etc.

        It's not meant to be a dictatorship, and in many ways it's not -- but it's not meant to be a pure democracy either.  It's a community built with some guiding principles along a basic premise, and follows the lead of the Administrators.  Therefore, fairness to a diversive community serving a particular (and expanding) goal must follow some less-than-wide-open deterministic factors to enhance management and minimize the likelihood of a minor "burp" disrupting the entire site.

        Never, never brave me, nor my fury tempt:
          Downy wings, but wroth they beat;
        Tempest even in reason's seat.

        by GreyHawk on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 08:07:39 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Strange obsession, this who's-a-troll mania. (0+ / 0-)

          It needs to end now.

          For one thing, no two people, let alone a community, seem able to agree on a definition. And the suppressed-comment list bears that out.

          Second, there are already good names to describe certain classes of bad actors:

          • bullies
          • gossips
          • drama queens

          All these types are familiar to us from childhood and adolescence. We intuitively know how to deal with them. And none of those techniques involves a "troll rate" button.

          I don't know why it's so important to spend so much bandwidth squabbling mindlessly over who's a troll and who isn't. But enough is enough.

          People who clamor for more super powers for self-deputized troll hunters are trying to sell a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. dkos is not broken.

          •  Never said dKos was broken. You're ignoring (0+ / 0-)

            the particularly pertinent part of the issue -- the revelation of another diarist's personal information, including client lists, in a format that requires an administrative action to remove.  That's the core element I was trying to address with the troll piece of my suggestion.

            Kindly stop attempting to preach to me while failing to address the issue.  If you don't agree that Admins or pseudo-admins might be needed for such instances, fine -- but there should be a solution.  

            As it came about through "troll" discussions, I addressed it that way.  You're the one piling on objections and not actually addressing the issue here.

            Never, never brave me, nor my fury tempt:
              Downy wings, but wroth they beat;
            Tempest even in reason's seat.

            by GreyHawk on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 05:17:05 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  The only issues I see are personal power (0+ / 0-)

              and lack of trust.

              I see that we have rejoined the Battle of Armandogeddon, and in fact I'm delighted, because it illustrates the problem with suppression as currently practiced at dkos.

              It is unfortunate that "oppo" research caught up to armando. But oppo happens. And once it hit NRO, it was out there. For all to see. Including kossacks, who consider themselves well-informed people and who are affected by the development.

              Even when the news is bad, I want to know what it is.

              By the time we entered kindergarten, most of us learned that covering our eyes didn't make us invisible. Suppressing unpleasant news will not make it go away. And willful ignorance leaves the community vulnerable to more blindsided attacks of the armando variety.

              Trollrating is a blunt instrument--and as the suppressed-comment list reveals all too clearly, it is poorly used. More suppression power, vested in a few megatrusted ones, strikes me as an extraordinarily bad idea.

              I am a trusting user. I trust the community. There is no "problem" that the collective wisdom, vested in the whole community, can't address. I endorse the two-a-day trollrating limit and would like to see it go lower.

              To anyone who wants more trollrating power, I would pose a simple question: Why don't you trust the community?

  •  MetaKos (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bustacap, Sharon in MD

    Dailykos and the blogosphere in general are popular,
    'must-refresh internet' because the diaries, en masse, serve many different useful purposes:

    1. News aggregation - Who has time to read the NY Times, the Washington Times, watch Fox News and listen to Air America?  Someone else will do it for you.
    1. News interpretation/commentary/op-ed, often from experts (e.g. bonddad, outside links to experts with blogs)
    1. Personal angle on an issue in the news (e.g. abortion).
    1. History/science lesson - Learning is fundamental, unless you are a conservative.
    1. Call-to-action
    1. Original research/investigative journalism (e.g. Ohio fraud in '04, Dred Scott comment by Bush in debate and connection to Roe v. Wade)
    1. Political press releases
    1. Blogging about blogging (God how I hate these)

    Thus, Kos is your one-stop political news shop.

    I wouldn't focus on the mechanics of blogging (servers, TU status).  That would bore the general audience.  Besides, TU status is taken way too seriously.  It's not a Nobel prize and it doesn't make you a good person.

    •  And an agenda (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      bustacap

      Since you asked, an agenda...

      1. Why are the blogs (e.g Daily Kos) truly meaningful to so many people?  Why do people value them so much, spend their time on them, wreck their careers/marriages by spending too much time on them?  Looking at the list of diary types in my post above, I would then go through each type of diary and share examples of diaries from each category that personally moved me.  Ask the panel and audience to share.
      1. Does it make any difference at all?  Is it a waste of time?  Why is the netroots win/loss record Shrum-esque?  What can we do to make blogging more meaningful in the real world?  I believe you have written a book on the topic (which I enjoyed).
  •  fantastic speech, what are we doing to crash (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    blue armadillo

    the gate today, let's look at those local council races, water boards, school boards, commisioners

  •  Let's forget 2004? (0+ / 0-)
    Like a mulligan in a friendly golf game?
    I hope that "forgetting 2004" is some sort of sardonic irony...

    No "do-overs" for that debacle.

    I'd damn well hope 2004 gets some mention during the weekend, at multiple points. But I can see how fatigue over mulling over this "one" can drain the energy from the room. Accentuate the positive, right?

    People in Eurasia on the brink of oppression: I hope it's gonna be alright... Pet Shop Boys: Introspective

    by rgilly on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 04:26:51 AM PDT

  •  Say A-MEN! (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    borkitekt

    Your speech is going to be like a revival meeting, Markos. People will be rolling on the floor and speaking in tongues. LOL. Thanks for posting it, I'm looking forward to the video.

    How freeing it must be to walk through this world heeding neither conscience nor soul. - rude pundit

    by pattyp on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 04:34:23 AM PDT

  •  Thank you for posting this. (0+ / 0-)
  •  hello to all (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    blue armadillo

    sorry I won't be there... my suggested topic is on community building, the web, and how both software and topics lend itself to same.

    We're doing something on a smaller scale with Flu Wiki, but community building will outlast any issue and any election.

    It will here, too. ;-)

    "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

    by Greg Dworkin on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 04:56:50 AM PDT

  •  Meta Topic: Controlled Growth (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    metacin

    How will Kos and other blogs manage to bring in more people quickly without diluting their message?  How can a community grow at 10% a week and not lose focus?

  •  AWESOME MARKOS! (0+ / 0-)

    I can't believe I am missing all of this!

    Wait 'til next year!

    Never confuse kindness and patience with stupidity and weakness!!

    by Joes Steven on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 04:57:31 AM PDT

  •  Being there (0+ / 0-)

    Any event that commences with an intro like that
    is one I would love to be at. Seeing the potential
    cast of characters, it's a lock that it won't go
    "downhill from there," either.

    Too bad I work about 6000 miles from Las Vegas. Some
    year I'll find an excuse to make it. In the
    meantime, please be advised that failure to clue the
    rest of us mortals in on what transpires, will be
    received as cruel and unusual punishment!

  •  meta-kos - BORING !!! (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    CSI Bentonville

    I don't know where my activity stands relative to others

    rate of comments / recommends / diaries.

    ( I don't diary much at all)

    BUT

    when I skim these meta diaries with all their oblique references to pissing matches I haven't time to look up and dig out,

    well, they take time out of my blogging enjoyment, time that comes AFTER my 50 / 60 hour work week.

    META - Suggestion:

    IF you got a beef & are gonna wrtie a diary, put the details in the goddam beef diary.

    IF you don't want to put in the details cuz you won't want to keep pouring gas on some bullshit schoolyard fight

    THEN don't write the goddam diary.  

    rmm.

    http://www.liemail.com/BambooGrassroots.html

    by seabos84 on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 05:24:56 AM PDT

  •  Thank you again, Markos, (0+ / 0-)

    for a fantastic speech, an amazing conference (damn, wish I could be there), a really good book, and a blog that rocks. Every day. Can't wait to get home and download whatever I can find from YK. The coda on your speech was scary good.

    Meta-kos: what are your core values, what do you believe in, and how do you execute on them? The recommends, the troll ratings, the regular kossacks, what do they reflect about what you believe about the netroots? For meta-kos, talk about your values.

  •  Great address. (0+ / 0-)

    It made me feel empowered just reading it here. Are we going to transcripts of other important speeches on the front page? Let's please have YK2 on the east coast.

  •  Brilliant - wonderful speech (0+ / 0-)

    I SO wish I was there -- I love this site, I love this movement and you managed to distill the essence of it into your wonderful speech. I hope you enjoyed basking in the moment -- it had to feel so wonderful to see what you have brought together.

    I'm new here, and no techie, but for your panel discussion, speaking about how you have created this site, how you keep the standards up and the garbage out (for the most part -- I have not witnessed the dreaded "Troll Wars"). That is one thing that makes DKos special -- the overall intelligent discourse and the varied points of view -- it is a true oasis in a media desert.  

    Enjoy YKos. You deserve it.

    Hope to join you all there next year....

  •  AMEN, MARKOS (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    javelina

    FUCKING, A - M E N

  •  metakos (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    CSI Bentonville

    I would like to hear people talk about DKOS's role in pushing stories up from the underground into the MSM, and conversely, about how stories about DKOS and our worst meta moments can impact our effectiveness and the overall view of Democrats and progressives. (i.e. Jason Leopold/Wayne Madsen madness, Fitzmas, dare I say Armando?)

  •  Markos (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    javelina

    Your speech is like you - clear, concise and to the point.  Can you believe what's happened?  Thanks for being one of the great catalysts to freedom.

  •  I love it! (0+ / 0-)

    The speech is great--it reminds me why I love the site so much.  (I especially dig the part about the gray hair, since my gray hair is stuck here, working in St. Louis!)

    I don't know what other events CSPAN will be covering, but I hope someone manages to work in some discussions about net neutrality in front of a camera...

       

    It's true--after the rapture, we get all their shit. Unfortunately, they all shop at WalMart.

    by techiechick on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 05:52:40 AM PDT

  •  Scoop Workshop (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    metacin

    I hope I'm not too late into the thread, but I've been thinking of putting together a diary to see if we can't wiki a guidebook to installing and configuring a basic Scoop site.

    I think knowledge of how to go through the steps of the basic Scoop install would be a great tool for campaigns from the precinct to the state level.

    It would be great if an ISP could be convinced to specialize in helping Democratic Party and activist groups make their own Scoop sites.

    Stop the bullshit.

    by wetzel on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 06:24:44 AM PDT

    •  Honestly (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      metacin, CSI Bentonville

      Scoop is not the future. Daily Kos is less and less Scoop as I continue to have entire parts of it rewritten.

      I would recommend either CivicSpace or SoapBlox. Pretty much most of the functionality, and much, much, much easier to setup and maintain. And both platforms have committed people maintaining them.

      •  That's great news (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        peraspera, CSI Bentonville

        I recently learned that the Scoop administrative interface is a real pain-in-the-ass.  This is why I was thinking people could use some help.

        But after I and some of my friends learned how to use it, Scoop has been a real help to us in Dekalb County Georgia for a local, development fight.  It is just such a good thing to be able to post articles, diaries, and host discussions for local politics.

        There may be others out there who have followed the 'Powered by Scoop' link at the bottom of Dailykos to set up sites for local issues and wound up using Scoop instead of CivicSpace or SoapBlox which would have been better.

        I know you get a lot of 'wouldn't it be great' suggestions for DailyKos, but a permanent little bit of overview guidance for CivicSpace and SoapBlox and a place where people can post links to their local sites might be good for motivating local organizers.  I could definitely see the DNC setting up precinct captains with an out-of-the-box install.

        Stop the bullshit.

        by wetzel on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 07:50:33 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  this is the kind of thing we need to hear (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        musing graze, peraspera, metacin

        my thoughts on meta, which comes in two flavors.

        1. meta technology - brief description of foundations, recent additions, roadmap for future (like above comment only more).
        1. meta community - people connecting with people - the details (number of troll ratings, length of recommend list on front page) are what makes it all work but are not up for discussion in a venue like; however mechanisms for dealing with such could be.  

        Involving both sides of meta, what is the roadmap for the future for growth of Daily Kos and netroots?  It has to be one of these.

        1. Site Gets Bigger.  Change to accomodate.  This is the corporate model of success.
        1. Sites Get More Numerous (divide and conquer).  This is the biological model of success.
  •  Quick take on metameta (0+ / 0-)

    There's a line to be walked here.  On the one hand, you don't want DK to become a tinpot dictatorship, run by one "maximum leader" or a small coterie of oligarchs.  On the other, you don't want to allow it to degenerate into a howling flamepit where personal vendettas become the driving reason for people to post.  (Cf Delphi Forums.)

    This place has a history of vibrant political and social debate and effective activism.  The hardest thing will be to ensure that it does not become a victim of its own success.  You're already over 89,000 users, and will break 100,000 before long.  As its profile becomes ever higher and its influence more felt, more and more people, inside and out, left and (particularly) right, will do their level best to disrupt and destroy what you and the many, many good people here have succeeded in creating.  I don't envy you the upcoming task in keeping this place straight, but it's a task that will become more and more worthwhile in the coming years.

    The meta stuff is exasperating, I know, but all of the sturm and drang does hold a kernel of real problems that need to be addressed

  •  Meta kos (4+ / 0-)

    If I were attending yearlyKos, a metaKos panel would be the "must see" discussion of the weekend.

    I'm not sure all of the Daily Kos principals fully appreciate the magnitude of their achievement. Many thousands of bright, committed, hardworking individuals and small groups have attempted to create sustainable self-directed online communities capable of aggregating the power of indivdual political voices in order to create change from below. But no other community has been as successful as dKos at achieving this objective. It's stunning. Really.

    I want to know how it was done, which mistakes are avoidable. I want to know how this success can be propagated. I want to know how 'sibling' communities can be, hopefully will be, seeded, made sustainable and internetworked with dKos to compound this power base. Not spinoffs, not copycats, but multiple originals: franchises. This is an honest-to-god movement, enormous and successful yet still in its early stages. I want to know how it's going to keep growing and grow even faster.

    I want to know what principals guide and what technology empowers the platform which allows discussion to flourish at the level it does. Not perfect, but flourishing, vibrant and getting better all the time. I want to know when this knowledge base, technology package and support package is going to become available to the market. I want to know how much it will cost.  I want to buy it.

    I want to know that Marcos and his closest associates are thinking like Ray Kroc in the early days of McDonald's, that they understand how valuable thier idea is, how ready the world is to gobble up their product. I want to know Marcos is thinking of his community members as not only individual fry cooks and burger lovers but as franchisees, capable of quickly and massively compounding dKos' growth rate.

    •  Meta Kos: How can D Kos-style mechanics (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      musing graze
      be exported to localities all over the USA? I think Meta-Kos should include ample discussion of how to replicate (not duplicate) the successful strategies and methods D Kos has used to draw in, and draw on the skills and capacities of, its thousands of participants. So, really a kind of political boot camp, implemented via workshops, retreats, public meetings, etc. Support this effort with a Wikipedia-style site housing data bases of best practices in all manner of political functioning. Examples: how to research, select and effectively frame discussions of local, regional and national issues so your opponent can only react to your presentation. How to recruit, train and retain excellent, enthusiastic candidates, campaign staffs, campaign volunteers. How to counter negative attacks, and convert their messages into support for your cause. How to properly identify the power brokers, then organize, coach, empower and guide citizens to detect and assess abuses of power for themselves, undermine illegitimate power structures, bring them down, and excise them from town halls, county councils, state houses and legislatures, the courts, the US House and Senate. Stuff like that. I'd suggest that principals from Daily Kos, MoveOn, and other organizations convene joint strategy sessions to figure out how to combine their efforts while eliminating duplication; prevent resource and time-wasting inter-organizational turf battles; set up ongoing training workshops online and on-ground, all over the US; establish redundant communication lines parallelling the Internet, just in case; target and neutralize Bush/Cheney/Rove et al. psy-ops and black propaganda efforts; target, expose and neutralize inside-the-beltway Democratic interests and "news" media sources beholden to corporate puppet masters; collaborate to establish a vibrant, alternative media in the public space, rather than relying on blogs and the vulnerable Internet (extending the influence of liberal radio talk show hosts for example). In fact, principals from these orgs would be encouraged to fan out into the public domain often, as Kos has done so recently, to inspire, encourage, operationalize ground operations everywhere. We need a progressive equivalent to the Revolutionary War era Patrick Henry's, Tom Paine's, Ben Franklins, Thomas Jeffersons: people modeling common sense, demonstrating the courage to resist and fight Homeland tyranny,  displaying authentic democratic patriotism in thought, word and deed. And we need a network that can locate and transmit financial and material resources from areas with surpluses to areas in pressing need. Example: people in Democrat-safe districts send money, spend time volunteering in districts that are up-for-grabs. Everyone needs to be teaching someone, learning from someone, housing someone, teamed up with someone, strategizing with someone, and so forth, all the time, not just in election years.

      "America may be unique in being a country which has leapt from barbarism to decadence without touching civilization." -- John O'Hara

      by Enough Talk Lets Get Busy on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 01:59:22 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Good speech Markos! (0+ / 0-)

    I can hear the cheering as you finish from here.


  •  Why meta? (5+ / 0-)

    Because the unexamined life is not worth living. (that's Socrate's thought on the matter)

    As an old social activist, I am at least as interested in the evolution of the DKos "community" that has arisen out of the open structure we have here as I am in the political content.  While it is Marco's site, it's also our site: this blog wouldn't be the powerhouse it is without the input from all of us that participate. How we interact with each other, learn to resolve differences (or not), how we have come to see ourselves as "community", and what the implications of community are, in short, how  we make this little microcosm of democracy and freedom work, these questions need to be addressed.

    So we look at ourselves, and try to learn something from that examination.  It is often a messy process, just like democracy is, and often frustrating, but this self-reflection on who and how we are is crucial to the continued health of our community here.

    In calling ourselves a community, we are saying that we care about each other, as people, and people who care about each other tend to talk together about their lives beyond politics, and how politics is affecting our daily (or interior) lives.  This openess is what brings in all the amazing diversity we see here, from our pooties and ponies, to our children and parents, our hopes and fears.  

    The hard core political types get frustrated with all this touchy-feely stuff, but without that stuff, we're just another political blog amongst many.

    After I have some more coffee, I might try to expand on this, if anybody is interested.

    -8.0, -7.03 don't always believe what you think...

    by claude on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 07:23:17 AM PDT

  •  Meta Issues (0+ / 0-)

    From pie fights and troll wars, to evaluation of ratings measurments, "duplicate" diaries, etc.
    All of these are a sort of on-line microcosm of "real life" communities. To what extent are these internal debates a necessary part of any group hashing out their own procedures, standards and styles of interaction? What does it mean when these internal debates occur in the public square of a blog instead of behind closed doors of a meeting room?

    Practice absurdus interruptus - Support ePluribus Media.

    by Catte Nappe on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 07:41:58 AM PDT

  •  Greatest Hits (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Catte Nappe
    I'd love a "Greatest Hits" section of the site, containing some really good evergreen diaries which unfortunately become hard to find quite quickly. Maybe they can be linked from the appropriate topic in the dKosopedia. I often send people to some particularly good diaries from the past when I'm suggesting the site, but sometimes I will remember a diary with clarity and yet be unable to retrieve it because I don't remember the keywords.

    BTW, I love love love the diary rescue feature. I don't read every rescued diary, but it's a very nice roundup of the interesting things that happened on the site, and especially valuable if I haven't been here for a few days. So Thanks!

  •  $0.02 (0+ / 0-)

    So if you went to a panel on meta Kos, what would you want to hear about?

    How is it exactly that Hunter can string 4 or 5 expletives together and make it sound like music?  Sweet, sweet music.
    /

    usted es un mono por siempre

    by god less force on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 07:51:57 AM PDT

  •  Speak to vision. (0+ / 0-)

    Markos, you've done an incredible - no, Herculean - job of keeping your hand on the tiller and navigating a course for this little website thingy of yours. [If your parenting style is anything like your managing style, you've got to be one hell of a dad, BTW.]

    If I were sitting in that room, participating, I'd love to hear you speak to the future of Daily Kos - what you see as SOP 3 months, 6 months, a year, five years from now. While I've been here, you haven't tipped your hand too many times; by giving a peek, or a suggestion, at what the future might hold, you could muster up a little bit more wind to fill your sails so that you might guide this ship just where you want it to go.

    Of course, too much information might not be a good thing, but if you can use the Meta discussion to get some momentum behind the Next Big Thing for Daily Kos... well, people-powered politics are quite a force of nature, and you have done a hell of a job of harnessing the elements. Everyone wants to know which way the wind is going to blow, though, and you might be able to share just enough about your vision to get as many of us as possible going in the same direction.

  •  paging (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Black Max
    One more thing - while in general I'm a proponent of putting lots of stuff on a page rather than splitting it into lots of clicks, I find that if I accidentally open a diary with more than 200 comments, it takes forever (best case) or sometimes crashes my browser.  Setting up some kind of paging or some way to sneak in and only see n comments (even if it's a little convoluted) would be a big help. I've figured out how to find the permalink/story only with no comments, but I'd like to be able to see SOME comments, or some at a time.
  •  Elected DKos officials (0+ / 0-)

    I think you're amenable to this in some form, as you held nomination threads for this year's FP'ers.

    Why not formalize it something like what wiki does with Administrators?  Nominated and elected Admins or FP'ers or Troll diary deleters...

    This would go a length towards solving the overnight admin/trolling problems and create a less gamable tier of super TU's that could delete troll diaries.

    "I will make a bargain with the Republicans. If they will stop telling lies about Democrats, we will stop telling the truth about them." -- Adlai Stevenson

    by Scientician on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 08:14:25 AM PDT

  •  Meta Kos Thoughts (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    tvb

    In no particular order of importance:

    1. How important is anonymity to the value of the site? In some ways I love the idea of being able to meet other Kossacks personally as all of you are doing now at YK, but in other respects I value the anonymity that comes from not attending YK. If we move from just blog to live blog action groups, how will that affect the site and the nature of the discussions?
    1. New users should receive an email advising them of basic site policies. Perhaps a link to FAQ, but also reminders about repetitive diaries, Hunter's diary on why comments receive troll ratings, and Kos's basic statement on the purpose of the site.
    1. There seems to be a totally different diary pattern late at night. I'm not a late night person myself, but I constantly read of trolls appearing in the wee hours. Perhaps a different site protocol for late night users?
    1. Non-troll trolls. These are often active commentators who end up hijacking a diary with petty "did not", "did too" comments. When I see a diary with long indentations of comments between two of the same diarists, I often just stop reading the remaining comments because the discussion has become so bogged down in cat fights. I could name a couple of the worst offenders, as could others, but there ought to be a way to prevent these otherwise valuable commentators from hijacking the discussion thread.
  •  Markos, you're killing me... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Black Max

    I had to give up my chance to attend YK, and after reading your pre-speech notes, I'm just that much more depressed that I had to miss it!

    AS for MetaKos, why, just look at your speech.

    And now it's 2006, and it looks like we've arrived.

    Look at this conference! It's the epitome of people-power. It was organized by volunteers, without impetus from a traditional "leader". We now have the ability to support leaders wherever they may be. Leaders that would never have a chance in the traditional world of establishment politics or media. Like Gina Cooper, who was a one-woman force of nature in making this conference happen.

    Who was Gina Cooper? A former teacher from Tennessee? And how did that make her qualified to plan something of this magnitude?

    Of course it didn't. No more so than I was "qualified" to write about politics.

    No more so than an organic farmer named Jon Tester from nowhere Montana is "qualified" to be a United States Senator.

    But people-power is a wonderful thing. Everyone can be a leader. Everyone can be a strong voice. Everyone can make a difference. There has been far too much talent, far too much passion, far too much intelligence in this country marginalized by the establishment currently stinking up Washington D.C.

    And now, that talent has an outlet. It can no longer be marginalized.

    What is the 'backoffice' of Daily Kos?  It's the unique new-media, blogger-centric, people-powered base that has been created by the advances in Internet and especially broadband Internet access and services.  It's the ability of multitudes of people from anywhere on the globe to 'come together' to discuss and debate issues of greater and lesser import.  

    MetaKos is the meshing of the new technology with old school, back-fence politics on a grand scale.

    And we're just in the beginning phases of what looks to be the biggest thing in real democracy since the Athenian age.

    We the People is an idea who time has come - again.

    -7.50,-6.97 | Liberal, and Proud of it.

    by Angie in WA State on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 09:46:53 AM PDT

  •  Meta-Kos ideas (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Enough Talk Lets Get Busy

    I think there are two main areas to work on in the future.

    First is to have similar blogsites but at the local level.  Dkos is mostly about national issues, although states are frequently involved.  Getting a similar weblog in regional or statewide type format allows individuals to discuss local issues and local races for example which sheriff did what and which Attorney General is corrupt and who said what to whom, and this will speed up and help make changes on the local level and domino effect to the national level.  There are many small communities that are stuck in  timezones of 100 years ago because new ideas and fresh efforts have no way of being expressed.

    Secondly, is to make alliances with the high schools.  High school students are being manipulated by society forces to a much larger degree than before, and as education gets watered down even more and grade inflation gets sickening, we have graduates entering society with huge bloated egos, pitiful morals and pathetic abilities to detect the lies they are inundated with.  A site is needed to show these potential voters alternative news sources and updated viepoints not put forth in textbooks or by teachers even.  Few, very few teachers inspire, most teachers conform for fear of their jobs.

  •  If a tree falls in the forest...does anyone hear? (0+ / 0-)

    I used to feel like that paradox...that there was no one there to hear so maybe I didn't make a sound

    But now I know that there are others there...others having the same thoughts, ideas, passions, frustrations and thanks to this medium, you, and I and ALL of us are being heard

    It's such a powerful and amazing happening...feeling and fueling the shift in power

    And I am so proud and happy to be a part of this amazing community who's voice is becoming louder by the minute

    Keep turning up the volume!


    "DC, the chocolate city with the marshmallow center and the graham cracker crust of corruption" - Stephen Colbert

  •  Thank You. Thank You! Thank You!!!!!!! (0+ / 0-)

    Sir, Your words are always so encouraging. I could not make it to Vegas but I will be at the CTG event on Monday can't wait Finally my fiance (not that she didn't already) will better understand why I can't shut up about the Power of the People.

  •  Metacarpal Diem! (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Enough Talk Lets Get Busy

    Hey, thanks for the keynote speech in plain ol' bloggy keyboard text!  

    Would love to hear your observations on the periodic cycling of community issues here:  the Law and Order (Troll Control) episodes, the chronic  Profanity/Propriety debates, the occasional DKos Doomsday convulsions, and (last but not least) the Celebrity Farewell orchestral movements.  Over time, what lessons emerge from all the meta noise?

    Would love to hear the panel's collective thoughts on creative, pro-active techniques for fostering high-signal discussion and productive activism here. For example, SusanG's Diary Rescue series is a non-technical, people-powered site enrichment that helps identify, reward, and further propagate thoughtful contributions. What are some other ideas for encouraging the site’s health and development, as it continues to grow?  

    Thanks!  Hope you all have an absolute blast together, out there in face-to-face format. This gathering is very exciting, even for those of us watching (many, oh-so-wistfully) from afar. Congratulations to all.

  •  MetaKos (0+ / 0-)

    If I may venture my humble opinion:

    If you let it become all about "community moderation", trolls, troll-hunters, or the outing of Armando, you're screwed.

    Have a good session!

    Impeach the Enemy-Combatant-in-Chief Already

    by Mehitabel9 on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 01:03:06 PM PDT

  •  you say losers (0+ / 0-)

    like it is a bad thing...

    -6.63, -3.59 If we shall fail to defend the Constitution, I shall fail in the attempt.

    by spoon or no spoon on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 01:25:02 PM PDT

  •  Archive diaries by subject; create a menu of the (0+ / 0-)

    subjects on left side of the home page. Organize a Wikipedia-style database of all effective political functions. Spawn local political organizations, activist networks, online discussion groups, local blogs, encourage local political skills workshops. Direct support for a substantial alternative media, on the model of Air America radio, etc.

    "America may be unique in being a country which has leapt from barbarism to decadence without touching civilization." -- John O'Hara

    by Enough Talk Lets Get Busy on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 02:09:56 PM PDT

  •  Great address! (0+ / 0-)

    This is a great address. Simple and true. I look forward to finding a podcast somewhere.

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