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Jesus' General and Bartholomew's Notes on Religion bring us this case of a Jewish family in Delaware that objected to extensive Christian proselytizing by their public school district. As a result, the family was roundly attacked, subjected to threats, and has now been explicitly singled out by an organization called Stop The ACLU [.com, .org -- see update] -- who, as the haphazard nature of the posts on their website indicate, are not so much interested in stopping the ACLU as supporting Bushism and advocating against everyone from Hans Blix to liberalism in general. Including, if need be, sixth graders.

In a recent turn of events, Stop the ACLU published the home phone number and home address of the family on their website, highlighting it as the first instance of an ongoing "project" called "Expose the ACLU Plaintiff".

Expose them to what? Why is the publication of this address and this family especially noteworthy? Because the family in question previously had to relocate due to harassment and threats against them -- including oblique threats from members of the very school board in question. Bartholomew's Notes on Religion quotes coverage from a site that highlights such attacks on Jewish Americans:

A large Delaware school district promoted Christianity so aggressively that a Jewish family felt it necessary to move to Wilmington, two hours away, because they feared retaliation for filing a lawsuit. The religion (if any) of a second family in the lawsuit is not known, because they're suing as Jane and John Doe; they also fear retaliation. Both families are asking relief from "state-sponsored religion." [...]

On the evening in August 2004 when the board was to announce its new policy, hundreds of people turned out for the meeitng. The Dobrich family and Jane Doe felt intimidated and asked a state trooper to escort them.

The complaint recounts a raucous crowd that applauded the board's opening prayer and then, when sixth-grader Alexander Dobrich stood up to read a statement, yelled at him "take your yarmulke off!" His statement, read by Samantha, confided "I feel bad when kids in my class call me Jew boy." [...]

A former board member suggested that Mona Dobrich might "disappear" like Madalyn Murray O'Hair, the atheist whose Supreme Court case resulted in ending organized school prayer. She disappeared in 1995 and her dismembered body was found six years later.

The crowd booed an ACLU speaker and told her to "go back up north."

In the days after the meeting the community poured venom on the Dobriches. Callers to the local radio station said the family they should convert or leave the area. Someone called them and said the Ku Klux Klan was nearby.

So now, as Bartholomew's Notes on Religion discovered, Stop the ACLU felt it necessary, as the first step of what they claim will be an ongoing campaign, to highlight the contact information of the family in question: "we want the community to know about it", says the introduction of the piece, which encourages individuals to contact the family. But remember, the disclaimer says: "harassment and threats serve only to harm us and could even get the police involved which we don't want."  So contact, and "get others involved" -- but don't harass. [The page has been modified since it was first placed; Jesus' General has a screen capture.]

Jesus' General got an email response of Nedd Kareiva, director of Stop the ACLU, to these events. It reads in part:

I am pleased that we had an effect in this case.

Indeed, on an update to his original post as a result of the attention of Salon and other blogs, Mr. Kareiva reiterates that future installments of the series will target additional individuals.

It is noteworthy that the Stop The ACLU project is supported, by their claims, by a "team" of over two hundred right-wing bloggers. They've gotten positive attention from World Net Daily and Free Republic, been invited to low-class radio outfits, and been the benefactors of links from a passel of blogs that ranges from Debbie Schlussel and Michelle Malkin to even more batshit insane elements of the far-far-right.

This is the face of the hard core of the Republican base: the base represented by Front Page Magazine, NewsMax, and a host of vicious and frequently racist sites. This is the base David Horowitz and his band of venomous "reporters" attempt to reach, when "exposing" supposed traitors in academia or the press. This is what Malkin and others attempt to mainstream through VDare and similar groups. This is the face of the assault on so-called "liberalism" -- an assault against Jewish Americans, against those of all other faiths and heritages, presuming they don't keep their mouths shut, and, when necessary, against sixth graders. These are the people that David Neiwert and other reporters continue to track, in their efforts to document how these kinds of rhetoric, tactics, and sometimes even the same people move from the farthest fringes of far-right supremacist and militia movements into accepted "mainstream" Republican discourse.

This is fascism with an American face. And with each passing advocacy of further violence, with each family run out of town or "exposed" online to thousands of very, very stupid followers who idolize their own beliefs above America, their own values above those of democracy, and their own testosterone a whole hell of a lot more than common sense, they tread closer and closer to the edges of just what they will advocate, and just what they will do.

The bigger violence of inherently violent movements starts one town at a time, one school at a time. It includes mail bombings of judges, and it includes sites that publish the home information of abortion doctors, crossing out ones that have been killed and greying out the ones that have been wounded. It includes very large acts, and it includes very small ones, involving only one family, and one town.

Let Mr. Kareiva and Stop the ACLU know -- politely, please -- how we feel about violent threats against families and children, and his suggestion that a family in fear for their lives was "an effect" to be "pleased" about.

And let the rest of the right-wing blogosphere know, on an ongoing basis, that this transparent crap that supports their fellow Americans so long as they have the "right" beliefs, that endorses thuggery and the rhetoric of terrorism so long as it is aimed at the "right" targets, and who supports Jewish Americans so long as they either shut up or leave town -- no more. Let them know that there's a whole ninety percent of the country out there that finds them despicable, and has no intention of letting them continue to operate in the dark.

This is the face of fascism -- supposedly Christian, violent and aggressive, and painted in the colors of the flag. This is the America they are trying for.

The biggest irony of the Stop the ACLU action against this family? That ACLU involvement in this case has been minimal: aside from putting the family in touch with a local attorney willing to take the case pro bono, and an ACLU speaker in support of the family at the hostile 2004 school board meeting, the organization is not otherwise involved in the case. So it's not about the ACLU, and it's certainly not about principles or "facts": it's just about thuggery.

(Hat tip also to Troutfishing, who covered this in the diaries earlier today.)

Update [2006-7-5 21:43:34 by Hunter]: The first link in this story used to point to wingnut site; the site that did the outing is claims they are unaffiliated with They have posted an update stating that -- and supporting

This would be compelling, but in fact the two sites are tightly linked, according to the principals themselves ( NO LINK because of obnoxious embedded sound upon loading the page):

Here is a way you can get involved in fighting leftwing lunacy. My blog, is the official blog of [...] Nedd has put together a form letter and is looking for volunteers to mail them across the nation. The letter simply asks them to visit Stop The ACLU.Org and and educate themselves about the ACLU. They don't ask for money, or anything like that.
The About page of the site -- and a variety of other links -- establish the joint "official" role of the two sites.

Update [2006-7-5 22:5:1 by Hunter]: I've removed three comments with the addresses of some of the principals of StopTheACLU from this site. Please note that posting the addresses or phone numbers of individuals is not done here, and is grounds for banning.

Originally posted to Daily Kos on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 04:46 PM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Can these idiots be prosecuted... (26+ / 0-)

    Under Hate Crimes? How about those mifty anti-terrorism laws?

    Common sense, decency, concern and caring for those less fortunate - is that too much to ask of a government "of the people, by the people, for the people"?

    by PatsBard on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 04:48:56 PM PDT

  •  Check out their poll! (10+ / 0-)

    I voted for "Legal Action against Christmas".  

    What ACLU Issue or Group Concerns You the Most?
    Abortion on Demand
    Same Sex Marriage
    Assault on Boy Scouts
    Legal Action Against the 10 Commandments/Pledge
    Legal Action Against Prayer in Schools/Government
    Illegal Immigration
    Undermining the War on Terror
    Death Penalty Opposition
    Legal Action Against Christmas

    Aren't they a hoot?  The poll in on the lower right hand side of the home page.  

    We must never lose it, or sell it, or give it away. We must never let them take it from us.

    by Fabian on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 04:50:16 PM PDT

  •  A diary that is in a sense a fit companion for (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    boofdah, greenearth
    •  I bet you are going to get (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      boofdah, melvin, Balam

      a lot of internets about that one!

      •  That's fine. As you may know, I (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        joanneleon, Lisa Lockwood

        just replaced all my dilithium crystals, and all the important gears are now made of extremely hard wood.

        •  I just hope (0+ / 0-)

          that your tubes don't get all clogged. ;-P
          On a more serious note...
          Frightening diary, all the more so because it illustrates a path our country is charging down that with each step more surely diverges from what is moral and right, toward an outcome "no one could have predicted", to borrow that oft used phrase.
          I wake up each morning in the growing certainty that god is getting really pissed at us. Looming dread at what next outrage will play across our national stage is not conducive to hope. Is sanity too much to ask for in our government? In our churches? In our neighbors? To misquote another who posts regularly here, "when asked if he saw any similarities with what is happening here in America and what happened in Nazi Germany in the early 30's, a concentration camp survivor replied, no...much later".

          You're either with the United States and its Constitution, or you're with Bush. Hekebolos

          by Lisa Lockwood on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 05:00:51 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  chilling reminders of Hitler's reign... (21+ / 0-)

    Oh I know - it could NEVER HAPPEN HERE!

    "YeeHaw!" is not a foreign policy.

    by annefrank on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 04:51:01 PM PDT

  •  What kind of name is that? (8+ / 0-)

    Mr. Kareiva ?

    Is it "American?"  Will his sorry, racist ass be next?

    Yes, they are terminally stupid.

  •  MAKE IT STOP!!! (13+ / 0-)

    I cannot take this shit one more freaking second!!!
    Can't these people be put in JAIL for putting innocent peoples lives in jeopardy???

    "We answer to the People, not the Corporations" A Real Democratic Slogan

    by paddykraska on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 04:52:09 PM PDT

  •  This is fucking shameful (12+ / 0-)

    The utter idiocy of the new American fascism (and the title is correct, that's exactly what this is) would be pathetic were it not accompanied by such cruelty.  Goddamned pigs.

    "While there is a lower class, I am in it. While there is a criminal element, I am of it. While there is a soul in prison, I am not free." - Eugene Debs

    by matthewc on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 04:52:21 PM PDT

  •  Learn about Christian right theology (33+ / 0-)

    Dominionism is fascism with a theological twist. Forget about Islamists, who are a minor threat compared to the right wing Christian thugs and fanatics in our midst.

    "Men use thought only to justify their wrongdoing, and employ speech only to conceal their thoughts." Voltaire

    by chimpwatch on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 04:52:38 PM PDT

  •  Happening here too. (16+ / 0-)

    Even in blue MA, in a wealthy, educated area, we have the nutcases targeting schools:

    In Lexington, fear surrounds players in flap over gay teachings
    ...Paul Ash , 56, the new superintendent of schools, said news of the playground fight posted on blogs intensified the attacks. The conservative group's press release accused school officials and other adults of inciting students to fight, and claimed the spat was timed to coincide with the anniversary of the legalization of gay marriage. Then, a blogger posted Ash's phone numbers and e-mail address....

    •  So, 'even' wealthy, educated areas have nutcases? (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      gpm, Loboguara, greenearth

      Just checking...I feel a ranty diary building...

      Dear World: Sorry: we tried our best -- Half of America

      by mftalbot on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 04:58:13 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Rant away. (9+ / 0-)

        But get the quote right:  it is "even in blue MA" and the descriptor was there to illustrate that this can't be dismissed as impoverished uneducated bumpkins as some do in these situations.

        I think we're on the same side here, you might think again about what is worth arguing about.

        •  You're right, it's not worth a fight, (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          boofdah, greenearth

          but it too often needs repeating that people in "a wealthy, educated area" (did I get the quote right?) are not necessarily more enlightened than the rest of us.

          And now you're adding bumpkins to the list of people you're offending.

        •  Then why the 'We'? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          Thus emphasizing that you consider yourself part of the "wealthy, educated" area, as opposed to those below you?

          That's how you came off to a first read.

          "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross" - Sinclair Lewis

          by Loboguara on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 05:45:11 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Please see the commas. (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            nasarius, old possum, Balam

            Even in blue MA, [comma] in a wealthy, educated area, [comma] we have the nutcases targeting schools:

            I am in Massachusetts.  I am in a town whose nickname is "Slummerville" which you should feel free to google.  Feel free to look for the average income demographics in Lexington and Somerville. The "we" is blue Massachusetts, where I am saddened to report that this is occuring in a nearby town.

            You are free to misconstrue and inflate this for reasons of your own.  But isn't that the problem here--people are inflating a misunderstanding?

            As I mentioned above, you also are picking the wrong fight.  

            But ok--you tell me:  what is the best way to make the point that not all bigots are what people perceive them to be?  You want people to think all bigots are poor and uneducated?  I don't know what you want.  Please clarify.

        •  I don't think wealth or education (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          bellatrys, boofdah, greenearth

          has anything to do with one's penchant for bigotry or sick and violent behavior.

          After all, it was east coast liberals, wealthy and very well educated, that planned and implemented the Vietnam war.  As far as I'm concerned, they should all (Presidents Kennedy and Johnson included) have been sentenced to life in prison (I don't support the death penalty).

          But I understand your point.

          "While there is a lower class, I am in it. While there is a criminal element, I am of it. While there is a soul in prison, I am not free." - Eugene Debs

          by matthewc on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 06:00:49 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Ironic - JFK might still be alive today n/t (0+ / 0-)
          •  Just to be fair you forgot to mention (0+ / 0-)
            that President Ike sent the first group of so called military advisors into VN. So in fact it was him that started the US in the bloody fight in VN.

            Yes I blame JFK and LBJ also, but Ike the Republican who was relieved by JFK sent the first troops in under the roll of advisors.  

            If you are not part of the change, you may be part of the problem.

            by eaglecries on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 07:52:23 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Your'e right (0+ / 0-)

              and continuing on that thread, we should include Truman, who financed over 80% of the French effort in Vietnam, supplying much of the money and arms.  I'm not sure if Truman and Ike's involvement in Vietnam merit the same punishment (again, this is all fantasy since our intellectual elite would never dream of applying the same standards to our leaders that we demand of others), but they have their own crimes to answer for.

              Maybe we should just be quiet.  This kind of talk doesn't help our chances for 2006, does it?

              "While there is a lower class, I am in it. While there is a criminal element, I am of it. While there is a soul in prison, I am not free." - Eugene Debs

              by matthewc on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 01:08:21 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  Amen to that. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Loboguara, greenearth, Pandoras Box

        You shouldn't piss off people who live in less-wealthy, less-educated areas.  Because we might beat you up, especially if you're Jewish.  That's how we are, you know.

      •  Yes, they do (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        EVERY place has nutcases. Fortunately, they have the same freedom of speech as everybody else.

        And when they cause problems, they are usually taken to task for it. Not always, of course, but usually.

      •  Orange Co., CA - need I say more? (0+ / 0-)

        That county has a higher than average neo-con, John Birch society, uber-weathly WASP extremists.  Not sure if it started with John Wayne (a resident there while alive), or that it became that way due to the availability of open spaces to build large upscale suburbs after the decline of the citrus industry.  Many parts of it are far enough away from the older, average class towns, but still within the vicinity to the nicer beaches (eg. Newport.)
         Education and income levels can have a galvanizing affect in the opposite direction when it comes to tolerance of people who "aren't like you."  How do you think they accumulated that wealth, by being "fair" to "different" types of people, or by isolating themselves and staying near people they "trust" because they are carbon copies of themeselves?  
         Fear of losing hold of one's status in society (even if only self-perceived) can make individuals take on the "pack" mentality even if they might not otherwise.    

    •  Ridiculous. (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      peraspera, bustacap, boofdah, greenearth

      The setting, a playground, is most appropriate for this childish behavior.                                                        

      Is it that the wingnuttery feels like they have nothing left but to literally lash out at the people who seem to embody what they despise?

      IN related news (from earlier) Lewiston ME police nabbed the dude who threw the pig's head into the mosque. He's my age (way old enough to know better), a total Loser and said it was "a joke". Asshole.

    •  mem from somerville, (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      According to the article, the attacks were on a 7-year-old boy whose father did not want him to learn about gay marriage or homosexuality in class.  

      I live in Arlington, MA, but I hadn't heard about this.  The story is kind of confusing.  It seems "bloggers" stirred up anger at the school administrators, but children bullied the boy whose father was anti-gay.  

      Do you know any more about why this child was bullied?

      •  Well, there was a playground incident. (6+ / 0-)

        The incident is reported as (same article):

        Parker's 7-year-old son was punched on May 17 by another first-grader at Estabrook Elementary School as other children watched.

        Two first graders fought.  First graders fight.  Was it really over gay marriage (same article)?  

        A conservative group issued a press release almost a month later , saying students attacked the boy because of his father's protests over storybooks depicting gay relationships. School officials said students squabbled over where students would sit at lunch.

        Emphasis mine.

        The problem was that the right-wing bloggers inflated it to say that the school officials incited the kids to violence, then sent out all their contact info.  That officials incited this is wrong, and even the kid's father won't confirm that (same article):

        Sitting on his living room couch, Parker [protesting father] denied that he is being used by anyone. But in retrospect, he acknowledged there was no evidence that an adult had directly incited students to bully his son.

        Emphasis mine.

        Does that help?  I know I quoted only parts of it to illustrate that real life-affecting battles were going on everywhere.  And I believe the root is the same, that Mr. Uniter-not-a-Divider has antagonized the left and emboldened the right that these battles are inevitable, spreading, and worsening.

        Sorry for any confusion.  

        •  Thanks, I understood your point (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          bustacap, greenearth

          in mentioning the case.  I was just interested in the story because it was the first time I'd heard of it.  I found some other information on-line.  Apparently the fight was over who would sit with whom in the lunchroom.  The was not "beaten" by 10 other kids, as some right wing websites stated.  He was hit by one boy, a friend, who later wrote a letter of apology to the family and was suspended from recess for two days.  

          I was struck by the fact that the child was only 7, and is seemingly being used by his parents to push their anti-gay ideas.  It's really shocking and sad.

          As part of my doctoral dissertation, I did interviews with children in a private school.  I was very interested and happy to learn from these children that some of their friends have two mommies or two daddies, and they don't find that troubling.

          I'll be watching for updates on this story in the future.  Thank you for calling attention to it.

          •  Just to add. (5+ / 0-)

            I agree with you that the tone set by Bush in the past five years has led to a much less civility in this country.  The same thing happened under Reagan when people began to openly attack and denegrate homeless and poor people.

            This episode in Delaware is one of the most disgusting things I've heard about recently.  I've never understood why people can't just leave each other alone to be who they are.  It's just tragic.  

    •  Well, that's awfully elitist. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      Wow, what a surprise! There's nutcases EVEN in your "wealthy, educated area"!

      And people wonder why democrats sometimes get called ivory-tower elites.

      I mean...DAMN. :P

      "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross" - Sinclair Lewis

      by Loboguara on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 05:43:45 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  what (0+ / 0-)

        Do you think there's no difference in loony 'winger density between say, Mississippi and New York? It's been established in any number of studies that liberalism increases with education.

        So why the outrage? Since when is it "elitist" to make valid statements?

        Oh God, I haven't read your book; I'm sure it was divine
        Especially the part where you turned water into wine

        by nasarius on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 07:38:26 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  GOP going for the insane 'base' in 2006 (6+ / 0-)

      (originally posted a couple days ago)

      Who were the people in Rwanda that massacred their neighbors? It included teachers who killed their students, nurse that killd their patients, aunts that killed their nieces.

      These are the 15% of the population that are willing to believe that they have the power to intimidate others and yet they are still vicitms. They are always there waiting to be mobilized by a leader who will use that narrative and a willing media that will stick with this well tested script.

      These are not the people that fight wars, these are the people that follow armies looting and raping. These are the people that stay at home and intimidate the soldiers families. These are the people that would slash your tires, put a rock through your window, poison your dog, or sideswipe your kid off their bike. And in time of a civil crisis, they will form a mob, chain you to the back of their car and drag you around the block a few times before helping themselves to that tv you don't need any more.

      That is the people that the GOP are focusing on, and all the other crap is designed to keep turnout low. Yes, there will be the usual dirty campaing  tricks, but we can also expect to see a significant amount of physcial intimidation. And even though turnout will be low, we can expect that the GOP will get every single vote from these people.

      Doubt this idea? Well just notice how every single dem is called "insane," "crazy," or "off their meds." Nope, it's no longer "angry" or "Bush hater," now it's that Dems are "insane." Well anybody who has ever dealt with belligerent people with mental problems call everyone else "crazy," and swear up and down that they are the only sane person in 100 miles. Well, that everyone-but-me-is-crazy song and dance is what the pundits are doing now, and that is designed to appeal to people who use that as their favorite excuse. Democrats try to argue with their talking point, not realizing that is absolutely perfectly tailored to the voters that the GOP wants.        

      •  speaking of Rwanda ... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        I watched Hotel Rwanda last night for the first time.  I couldn't shake the feeling that we're not so far away from that here.  Racists with guns?  Check.  Radio propaganda dehumanizing the "other" and calling for acts of murder against the "cockroaches?"  Check.  Government support for both of these?  Check.  An international community which is, for whatever reason, unable to stop it?  Check.  

        Really, all that needs to happen is for a strong enough right-wing leader, like Dobson or Falwell, to give the signal, and the violence will be unleashed.  Beatings, murders, vandalism, it's all there in the form of potential, like a tightly coiled spring ready to be let loose on the world.

        "Leave the gun ... take the cannoli." -8.38, -7.69

        by Balam on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 08:29:42 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  You mean like... (0+ / 0-)
          after the 9/11 attacks, when Falwell shifted the blame for the attack from the terrorists to "the pagans and the abortionists and the feminists and the gays and the lesbians...the ACLU, the People for the American Way" and other "Christ-haters", adding, "the ACLU's got to take a lot of the blame for this...." Falwell tops off his hate-filled rant by by saying, "All of them who have tried to secularise America, I point the finger in their face and say, "You helped this happen'."

          Robertson immediately responded by saying, "I totally concur. The problem is that we've adopted that agenda at the highest levels of government."

          Then there is the vile filth spewed by Ann Coulter.

          No. We're not so far from that here.

    •  missing the point? (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      nasarius, boofdah, greenearth

      If I may be so bold, I think some people are missing the point. I think "mem from somerville" is trying to say that Delaware is easy pickins for the wingers.  Lexington is not. And yet wingers have gone after Lexington's educators with abandon.  A 1st grade school yard bee bop is evidence of a plot that was "timed to coincide with the anniversary of the legalization of gay marriage" ?  This is the definition of a "stretch".  The wingers are extremly dishonest.  And, at  risk of putting words in Somerville's mouth, this vitriolic winger behavior is just a taste of what we have to look forward to during the upcoming campaign season.  What will the Dems do about it?  (what will I do about it?)

  •  From the Stop the ACLU site: (23+ / 0-)

    Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting

    Have they no sense of irony?

    "The mistakes of each generation will just fade like a radio station if you drive out of range." -Ani Difranco

    by righteousbabe on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 04:53:11 PM PDT

  •  It will not stop with Jews (31+ / 0-)

    I know some religious zealots who will knock each other over to line up to help groups like the Stop ACLU and think that they are doing "God's" work. They will be more than thrilled to go so far as to go after fellow Christians who don't share their repugnant world views. Republicans have ridden the facist horse of hate of others to power. It's past time to put it out to pasture.

    Thank you for front-paging this story. It is frighteningly important.

  •  If this isn't a form (11+ / 0-)

    of "ethnic cleansing" then I don't know what it is.  True, it is a very mild form, but think what these people could ultimately be capable of if really provoked.  

    I wanna be optimistic about human nature, but it gets harder each day.

  •  I've been reading about this for a while (21+ / 0-)

    in both Frederick Clarkson and troutfishing's diaries.  I agree we should contact these loons and let them know what they are doing is unacceptable.  But I think there is more to be done as well.

    Hate to sound sinister but I think it's important to follow the money.  The unholy alliance between big government (faith based initiatives, anyone?  Remember that millions and millions of dollars are going to drug treatment programs and other "social services" and that money is being grabbed up by members of these same groups) and the right wing churches (I know that Scaife is a big funder, but I'm sure there are more) is making this evil possible.

    There was a diary earlier today about a college near D.C. whose students, home taught through high school, are indoctrinated in the new cause of bringing Christianity to our Constitution, and the graduates are often placed in internships in our federal government.

    Again, I am no expert on this topic, but Clarkson and troutfisherman's diaries, with many links to websites that do put all the pieces together, will show how extreme moral corruption has gone hand in hand with Delay and Cunningham and Abramson-style political corruption.

  •  William Shirer's classic... (8+ / 0-)

    now seems to describe contemporary times, rather than be a historical account.

    Please...please, let this stop. This cannot be happening here. Why is it not a single coporate media outfit is covering this yet, as far as I am aware (I so hope that I am wrong).

    Will this finally help to get Lieberman's attention ? Please !

    How can this be happening for real ??? (I know, stupid, rhetorical question, I HAVE been paying close attention, but, I feel like the person in the famous painting "The Scream").

  •  This story has been nagging me all day. (8+ / 0-)

    Not the part about the crappy ass Stop the ACLU site, which I know is pure bullshit, but by the actions of this town against this family. I wish I knew more about this case...I am having a hard time envisioning a school board meeting taking such an ugly turn, or a family being driven out of town.

    Does anyone have more details about this town or the circumstances involved? Something just doesnt seem right to me, and its not that Im unwilling to accept that this sort of bullshit hatred happens in this country. I just cant believe its so...uniform.

    •  The ugly side of small town life (25+ / 0-)

      I'm a small town guy, and have defended small-town people and lifestyles here on a number of occasions.  But there is a dark and ugly side to small town life as well, when someone stands not just apart but is pushed hard enough to stand against the small-town norm.  Outsiders don't usually pay attention, because no one cares about the small towns anymore except when they can get real estate on the cheap, but every day someone, some family, is driven from a small town somwhere in America because they dared to be different.  

      •  Well, yeah. (7+ / 0-)

        Its just...Im from a smallish town in Maine. If this happened in my hometown or in another Maine town, I think there would be SOMEBODY at a school board meeting to defend this family, if for no other reason that its simply established that anti-semitism is BAD. Is this town in Delaware THAT small, THAT backassward, to make a yarmulke slur in public? Who are these people, the townsfolk and this family? How does the local media cover this? IS it being covered?

        Again, I wish I knew details.

        •  Some people there? (2+ / 2-)

          Sure. But while I remember hearing about it some, I don't remember details. (I don't live in Sussex though)

          However, when you sue in a small town, you make enemies. And kids can be really obnoxious, even in the best of towns.

          Were the family originally from the area? I don't know, but I kinda doubt it. That could contribute to the issue in the first place.

          However, this suit is 2 yrs old, has been settled, and frankly, I don't understand why people are bringing it up NOW.

          •  Now, because the family's address was published (0+ / 0-)

            recently on the StoptheACLU website.

            The suit is ongoing. The events happened in 2004, discussions with the school board failed, the suit was started after all this happened, and the story didn't make it into an internet tube until a few days ago.

            Does the violation of the Constitution become less significant because it happened two years ago, or because the targets might not be "originally from the area" or because they sued to uphold the First Amendment? C'mon.

        •  Its just 'Lower, Slower Delaware' (10+ / 0-)

          As a resident of Delaware, I feel the need to share some light on this issue.

          First, Delaware ressembles the U.S to a certain extent. The state is split into two sections by the C-D canal. The northern part is primarily Democratic run and whose economy is bolstered by intelligence based companies such as Astrazeneca, Dupont, MBNA(recently bought by Bank of America). The state's only prominent university (University of Delaware) is also located above the canal. The city of Wilmington and its liberal suburbs, which is only a 20 minute car ride from Philadelphia, contains 25 percent of the population.  Wilmington along with some other towns in the north carry such political power that Democrats such as Joe Biden and Tom Carper had and will have little trouble in being re-elected. Mike Castle is a moderate republican and he's widely respected, so he always wins in a landslide as well. Plus, Castle is an active part of the Delaware community and the Democratic party in Delaware put little onus on challenging him.

           The Southern part of the state ressembles a lot of whats stereotypically called "hick" country. Its primarily republican, especially the Indian River area, in which this took place.  The Indian River is in the southwest corner of the state. The dominant industry is the chicken industry. Besides Rehobeth, Bethany, Dewey, and the rest of the Delaware beaches down south(which is frequently visited by the richest people of America. Politicians from DC go there and a million dollars at Dewey can barely get one a small little house on a quarter of an acre there), its mostly small towns like the one described in this thread. In fact, besides the capital Dover, there is no town in the lower 2/3s of the state that has more than 7,000 people.

           As far as the people go, I can be of some help as I am a high school senior in Wilmington. However, I visited Southern Delaware several times, played in football games down there, and I know some people down there. First, they are amongst the most close-knit people ever. The small village people constantly feel invaded by the overdevelopment that is encroaching on their farms. This is why a proposal from the Democratic governor to preserve large areas of the state for "environmental reasons" have so much backing by the small town republicans down there. But back on track, the people who live in these very small towns are sometimes backwards.  I have lots of stories I have about the people from "lower, slower delaware" but I don't have the energy to type them all out.

           As far as the local press goes, the main Delaware paper and the one that I get is the Delaware News Journal.  They wrote a front page article on it one day but I forgot what the slant was. It was long ago and the case faded from most of Delaware's attention. I will try to recover that article for you guys.  

          But when I was reading it, I never expected this to make it here.

        •  There are no small towns, just small people (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
        •  The local media (0+ / 0-)

          According to the story, the local radio station inflamed the situation.

        •  in my small town experience (0+ / 0-)

          and I 'only' lived in a small town for 18 years..nobody defends the people being attacked because (and this is only my perception of how I grew up) you know it could be you they turn against next.

          as tough as it is to swallow hard, turn your head and walk away, it's even harder to step in front of the bullies and take it on.  at some point, self-preservation kicks in whether you like it or not.

          sometimes you're in the "whew, it's not me" camp.  sometimes you're in the persecuted camp.  speaking as someone who's been in both at one time or another, neither one is pleasant.

      •  Not exactly Lake Wobegon is it? (0+ / 0-)
    •  The Complaint in the Lawsuit Lays It All Out (10+ / 0-)

      The allegations seem to be fairly comprehensively laid out in the First Amended Complaint in the lawsuit (the original complaint isn't available electronically, from what I can see).  The families' case is Dobrich, et al. v. Indian River School District, et al., in Federal District Court for the District of Delaware, Civil Action No. 05-0120.

      Most of the pleadings in the case are available through the court's PACER/ECF system at 8 cents per page.  Unfortunately, I don't have any place to host the Amended Complaint (docket entry #134), so I can't post a link to it here.  The complaint recounts a litany of intolerance that soundsas though it was from several generations ago, and serves as a reminder that Sussex County, Delaware, has a lot more in common with the rural/agricultural South than with the Mid-Atlantic region.  (I've spent some time there, so I'm not just theorizing this.)

      By my reading of Judge Joseph Farnan's Order of June 29, 2006, defendants have 20 days from June 22 to respond to the Amended Complaint.  This would appear to be July 12.  We'll have to see what happens next.

    •  You might want to search the News-Journal (5+ / 0-)

      site, you'll find a good bit, including some that's not even in the archives.
      suit staying sealed

      But of course, that would mean you took the time to look up the papers in the area and do a search. Apparently few/none did.

      There are other articles in the archives, but you'd need to pay for the entire article.

      This was settled LAST YEAR, IIRC.

      Oh, and I LIVE in Delaware, the local ACLU took the case, and they won IIRC.

  •  This Is Why Anti-Gay Measures Should Be Imposed (12+ / 0-)


    So, what then, does this have to do with anti-gay ballot measures?

    The question we all have to ask ourselves about these proposals is, WHO IS NEXT?

    After the right wing beer hall putschers are done vilifying homosexuals and lesbians, WHO WILL THEY GO AFTER NEXT?

    We now have the beginnings of an answer.  No, I am not referring to the Jews as the exclusive "next target" (and yes, I am Jewish).


    "Nawwww, they will never go after the Jews..."

    Bet they said that in Germany in the 1920's and 1930's.

  •  Sue them into oblivion (21+ / 0-)

    Remember what happened when the Aryan nation got sued?  They went out of business.  And the plaintiffs got their ranch.

    Anybody that calls these folks and harasses them, get their numbers.  Make a list.

    Request that the police get the phone numbers if they're blocked by caller ID.

    Sue the school board, the mofos.  

    Sue them into fucking oblivion.

    They want to intimidate people?  Make them pay until it they're completely bankrupt.

    What is essential is invisible.

    by bebimbob on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 04:57:23 PM PDT

  •  Don't waste your time! (20+ / 0-)

    Thisis up on the website, from Herr Kareiva:

    Written by Nedd    
    Thursday, 02 March 2006

    To all you liberals who are reading this web page as a result of a link from Salon, the Daily Kos or one of your other obnoxious blogs, be advised that there have been some minor corrections made to this page, not as a direct result of your e-mails but because I believe it was the right thing to do.  However, there will be no more changes.

    Yet let me say that this individual below is not the sole target here.  It's just that I have not had time to update this page.  But now I will.  And I assure you of this - the more e-mails you send, the faster I will get more individuals and groups posted.  And believe me, I have a lot of them.

    So if you think you're angry at me now, just wait until we post more cases.  We love making you mad and will do all we can to see you become unglued.

    And for those of you who say I'm a Jew hater, you better have your facts straight about my nationality as I am part Jewish (on my mom's side) and proudly so.

    Lastly, thank you for all the hits to our site and getting us so much attention.  You are helping us become the number 1 pit bull against the ACLU.

    And when you write me at the e-mail address below, don't forget to ask me about getting your own Stop the ACLU mail account.

    I had a comment troll-rated to oblivion today, when I suggested we find out the home address and names of children of the admiral who arrested the Veteran for Peace at the VA hospital.

    Maybe I deserved it. But I wonder, though, when is it time to get just as nasty. We Jews didn't go quietly throughout the whole duration of the holocaust, at some point there was an underground resistance. When is it not enough to stake out higher ground? When is it time to play dirty?

    (-8.88/-7.64) Flirting with Feingold, Pining for Gore!

    by Joshua Lyman on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 04:58:44 PM PDT

    •  The douchebag claims to be part Jewish ?!?!?!?! (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      theran, Fabian, greenearth

      Truly, Hell hath no fury like unto the recent convert.

      •  The worst fundie Catholic I know (5+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        theran, nasarius, greenearth, Bhishma, Balam

        converted before her wedding.  I know no one else lwith her single minded devotion in that faith.

        We must never lose it, or sell it, or give it away. We must never let them take it from us.

        by Fabian on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 05:12:44 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  not the first time -- Homer Bigert of NY Times (8+ / 0-)

        did a piece on American Nazi Party back when they were led by George Lincoln Rockwell (and unfortunately based in Arlington VA).  One of thief lieutenants to Rockwell was a young man whose name escapes me but I believe his first name was John.  Bigart did a piece where he wrote about the fact the the guy was Jewish by birth.   If memory serves the guy committed suicide.

        Holocaust survivors can tell you tales of the brutality of the kapos, the Jews who did a lot of the dirty work for the Nazis.  

        Oh, and this gentleman's justification - that he is part jewish on his mother's side -- is making Judaism something of a racial category, and thus claiming he is not a racist.  But he didn't say that he was ever  a Jew, and he is still willing to justify actions against people whose difference is that they are Jewish.

        While I am not Jewish by religious preference, I know enough of my heritage to know that historically some of the worst persecutors of Jews were those who had converted.

        If he published information and that information was used to harrass, a harrassment that might not have been possible without his so publishing, while he might not be subject to criminal penalties, he would still be subject to civil sanctions, where the standard of proof is merely the preponderence of the evidence.   And the fact that he removed the offending information is - whether he will so admit publicly - a tacit acknowledgement that his posting of that information could be so interpreted.

        By the way --  someone ought to point out to him that the people he should most thank for his freedom to spew his vile ideas are those at the ACLU, since they stand so foursquare for full protection of 1st Amendment Rights.   Someone should remind him of Skokie.

        Those who can, do. Those who can do more, TEACH!

        by teacherken on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 05:21:36 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  His Mother was Part Jewish (4+ / 0-)
        To me that statement means neither he or his mother are converts.  He uses it to justify his antisemitism.  He not and never has been a practicing Jew.  
        •  You are right, of course... (0+ / 0-)

          I did word that a bit too dramatically.

          Nevertheless, like Fabian, I have noticed the rabid perfervor recent converts can exhibit (NOTE: NOT BY ANY MEANS IS THIS DISEASE LIMITED TO ANY ONE FAITH TRADITION !)

      •  There are loads of self-hating Jews around. n/t (0+ / 0-)
        •  I don't think it's self-hatred. He obviously (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          doesn't consider being Jewish as part of his identity.  The fact that he is descended from Jews, in his mind, innoculates him from accusations of hate-speech.  He hates Jews, sure, but I'd bet money that deep down he doesn't consider himself part of that category in any way shape or form.

          "Leave the gun ... take the cannoli." -8.38, -7.69

          by Balam on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 05:49:16 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  of course it is (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            theran, aitchdee, boofdah, greenearth

            if you are jewish (in whole or in part) and hate jews you are a self-hating jew. denying some part of your identity is the worst form of self-hatred. if it weren't dangerous it would just be sad and pathetic. that fact that he doesn't consider himself a jew, if indeed he is one just confirms this.

            •  Yes yes yes. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:

              And your Jewish identity is established by that of your mother. You can neither denounce it nor divest yourself of it. If this guy isn't lying altogether (to shield himself of anti-Semitic accusations) he reeks of self-hatred.

              •  How is it 'self' hatred if his (0+ / 0-)

                Jewishness isn't part of his "self?"  My grandmother was English, which technically makes me part English, but that is not part of my identity, not something actually is "me."  Despite my ancestry on that side of the family, I am neither ethnically, nor psychologically English.  Does that mean if I were an Anglophobe I would be "self-hating?"

                "Leave the gun ... take the cannoli." -8.38, -7.69

                by Balam on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 08:40:08 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Because the Jewishness IS (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  hester, aitchdee

                  part of himself, despite how he would rid himself of it if he could. Somebody told him that according to Jewish law, you are what your mother is, you have no choice in the matter, and it's literally driven him to his twisted form of Christianity. In your case, you'd only have a problem if you had some reason to denounce your British heritage, if there were a conflict between what you are and what you want your identity to be. Otherwise, it's as incidental as eye color, handedness, and other "accidents of birth."

                  He's conflicted so he directs the rage outward. I happen to have been born Jewish, raised in Jewish neighborhoods, but in early adulthood moved to Christian communities where, because I don't look particularly Jewish, it's hardly a factor. Also, I renounced the religion - not the heritage which I'm stuck with anyway - at an extremely early age. I have Jewish ancestors, I have no problem with it. His problems are so severe I'm afraid they could lead to violence in order to resolve in his psyche.

                  •  I think I see your point, but (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    rl en france

                    I guess it all really depends on whether or not his Jewish mother actually identified as a Jew herself and participated in Jewish culture.  If he was raised as a generic white American, chances are the fact that he was descended from Jews would be completely meaningless to him, as culture is not transmitted biologically, but only through learned practices and customs.  In such a scenario, he might as well have been adopted.

                    I don't know.  I'm not trying to be contrarian, I'm just trying to understand this.  People talk about bigotry often being a manifestation of self-hatred, and I have honestly always considered it to be a cliche, sort of an outdated Freudian oedipal kind of notion.  From an anthropological perspective, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, classism, etc., are grounded in a sort of tribalism, a "self" vs. "other" mentality where self=superior/good and other=inferior/bad.  If someone views their own kin or ethnic group as "other" rather than "self," and holds bigoted views towards them, it is still hatred of "other," rather than "self," even though it may not seem like it to a casual observer.  

                    I'm sorry if I'm rambling, but again, I'm trying to grasp the notion.

                    "Leave the gun ... take the cannoli." -8.38, -7.69

                    by Balam on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 09:36:55 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  it's not a cliche (0+ / 0-)

                      but you are right, if this looneybin's mom didn't know or care that she was jewish, didn't teach him anything 'jewish' etc then this case does not exemplify the concept of 'self-hatred'.

                      the anthropological perspective is of course true, but incomplete. and it is reductionist. we humans are complex creatures and the ethnocentrism explains one part of the puzzle. if you hold your own kin as inferior, bad, other, etc...and you are part of that kin it is self-hatred. by definition.

                      most of the self-hating jews i know (and i know several) either deny that they are jewish, or want to be considered in 'higher society' which is historically devoid of yidden. the latter group abhors the stereotypical countenance and behavior of 'ghettoized' jews and considers themselves above that. i.e. the expression of this tragic characteristic is varied.

            •  A (frightening, compelling) book about this... (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:

     Stella, by Peter Wyden. This excellent (but horrifying) account is of the writer's classmate, a young Jewish woman, who actually collaborated with the Nazis during the Holocaust as a "stealth" mole to trap unsuspecting fellow Jews into captivity. If this isn't the epitome of what "self-loathing" Jews are capable of, I don't know what is--but this book made me sleepless for nights on end.

          •  unintended consequences (0+ / 0-)

            ... I'd bet money that deep down he doesn't consider himself part of that category in any way shape or form.

            If he and the country are allowed to continue on his preferred course, I'd lay a bet that someday, someone will.

      •  There is a theory that Hitler could have been (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        as his biological father may have been one of the wealthy Jewish men whose houses his mother cleaned and that his then being a half-bastard of one of those men could have contributed to his rage.

        Another way of looking at it, which actually contradicts what I said earlier today on another thread, is through a question from Henry Miller in "Tropic of Cancer" - "Who hates the Jew more than the Jew?"

        Anyone seen the movie "The Believer" about a real life story of a Jewish kid in the KKK?

        Growing up Jewish in some parts of the USA, you can feel ashamed of it and resent that part that makes you different from the rest.  No, I am not just imagining this.

        The guy on this site says that his mother is Jewish, but he doesn't state how he feels about this, that he himself is a practicing Jew or feels some kind of identity or allegiance to his people, nor what he thinks about Jewish people exerting their rights to be considered first class citizens in a society or school district where they are outnumbered 25,000 to 1.  For all we know, he is a regular church attending Christian.  Would he be a coordinator of that site and group for any other reason?  Check out some of their stories.

        -5.75, -4.51 "While my eyes go looking for flying saucers in the sky." - Caetano Veloso

        by lostinbrasil on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 07:08:10 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  There is a theory that Hitler could have been (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        as his biological father may have been one of the wealthy Jewish men whose houses his mother cleaned and that his then being a half-bastard of one of those men could have contributed to his rage.

        Another way of looking at it, which actually contradicts what I said earlier today on another thread, is through a question from Henry Miller in "Tropic of Cancer" - "Who hates the Jew more than the Jew?"

        Anyone seen the movie "The Believer" about a real life story of a Jewish kid in the KKK?

        Growing up Jewish in some parts of the USA, you can feel ashamed of it and resent that part that makes you different from the rest.  No, I am not just imagining this.

        The guy on this site says that his mother is Jewish, but he doesn't state how he feels about this, that he himself is a practicing Jew or feels some kind of identity or allegiance to his people, nor what he thinks about Jewish people exerting their rights to be considered first class citizens in a society or school district where they are outnumbered 25,000 to 1.  For all we know, he is a regular church attending Christian.  Would he be a coordinator of that site and group for any other reason?  Check out some of their stories.

        -5.75, -4.51 "While my eyes go looking for flying saucers in the sky." - Caetano Veloso

        by lostinbrasil on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 07:09:18 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Ah, Hitler had Jewish ancestors (0+ / 0-)

        which only fueled the self-hatred he unleashed upon the world. Greatest inferiority (and persecution) complex of the 20th century.

    •  Hilter was part Jew (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      bibble, Fabian, FrankFrink, katrinasolo

      Schicklegruber was his surname.

      What is essential is invisible.

      by bebimbob on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 05:03:49 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  One of our 'obnoxious blogs'? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Fabian, greenearth

      Well, I guess we're having some impact.

      Are we supposed to be reassured by the fact that this bunch of fascistic bigots have other people in their sights as well?


    •  Holy FUCK! (7+ / 0-)

      He's going to post the names of people he disagreed with because we're calling him on his BULLSHIT?

      Good fucking GODS!

      HE is one person I'd have a hard time turning the other cheek and walking away if I ever encountered him in person. I'd do it...but it'd be fucking hard.

      They're not just a number, Tony Snow.

      by terrypinder on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 05:05:21 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Make him the GOP's poster child! (29+ / 0-)

      Do with him to the GOP what they with Ward Churchill against us:  Show that this clown IS THE REPUBLICAN MAINSTREAM.  

      And unlike their efforts to link us to Ward Churchill, what we'd be saying has the advantage of being true.

    •  Get your facts straight people! (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      He's part Jewish on his mother's side, so he couldn't possibly be a Jew hating backwards ass redneck conducting  modern day fascist pogroms in his little backwater!

      Delaware truly is the worst state ever.  Where the hell is Biden in all this?

      •  see my post above (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        the world is populated with more than a handful of self-hating jews.

      •  You know (0+ / 0-)

        you really might want to check out all your facts before you post.

        There's a little more (but not much) detail here...IR board rejects settlement offer

        And frankly, while I can understand them not particularly liking the prayer at graduation, there are other ways of dealing with it than a lawsuit.

        •  Damn this new system! (0+ / 0-)
          Trolls can walk spout nonsense with impunity and link to articles that further make them look even stupider than they already are without the richly deserved troll ratings they have earned.

          Oh, my bad.  Some of those words WERE pretty big weren't they and you ARE from Delaware and all.  I know y'all ain't much for books and such so I'll dumb it down for ya

          I wish I could troll rate your redneck idiot ass.

    •  Looking into the abyss and seeing a mirror (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      kaye, greenearth, Buckeye Hamburger

      . . . is not acceptable. Jeopardizing anyone's physical safety is reprehensible. Targeting children divorces one from the very core of their humanity. It is vile beyond words. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to need to take a nice long swim in a septic tank in order to clean it. Instead, channel your anger into energy to make the world a better place.

      •  Well, I do (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        channel a lot of energy into making the world better. Still, if someone was f'ing with my family I'd have no choice but to walk out into the street and fight.

        So, if that is the case then why shouldn't I walk out into the street and fight to defend someone else's family?

        That seems kinda stupid, though, because what we're talking about is threatening one family to prevent it from f'ing with other families.

        Well, but if the one family cannot be convinced to alter it's ways and if it continues to bring misery to many families then maybe it should be threatened!

        Sometimes you gotta fight, right? Any of us would have gone to war to defend people from Hitler, so doesn't this warrant the same kind of action?

        I don't know...

        (-8.88/-7.64) Flirting with Feingold, Pining for Gore!

        by Joshua Lyman on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 05:19:32 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Gandhi made 'colonialism' a filthy word worldwide (5+ / 0-)

          Martin Luther King did the same with "racism". These great men's adherence to non-violence fundamentally changed what was in people's hearts. What sort of violence has ever achieved that type of incredible power? Inciting violence against others is not only morally wrong it is impotent to effect long-term positive change.

          What would you think of yourself if your actions caused others to get physically hurt, particularly an innocent child? Don't allow your anger, no matter how justified, to destroy your humanity. There is a more powerful path to walk. I invite you to take it.

          •  I think (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            peraspera, greenearth

            that I'm on that path...

            Except for when I'm not.

            I'm on a path that advocates non-violence. It isn't easy, as you can see.

            You are exactly right on, though. Nothing transforms people like real love and grace and compassion. The kind that strikes one dumb with awe. I've been lucky enough to see it.

            I guess it just takes remembering, over and over and over and over...

            (-8.88/-7.64) Flirting with Feingold, Pining for Gore!

            by Joshua Lyman on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 06:08:16 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  Yep. This is how it begins (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      boofdah, greenearth, Joshua Lyman

      Callers to the local radio station said the family they should convert or leave the area.

      And, as an aside to Mr. Kareiva. I didn't realize 'Jewish' was a nationality. I learn something new everyday.

      The Grasshopper Lies Heavy

      by FrankFrink on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 05:13:20 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Thanks for posting this (12+ / 0-)

      Now I officially have no desire to head over to their site to give them any more hits or "attention". At first, for purely sado-masochistic reasons, I was going to head over there. But now, due to this guy's award-winning doucebaggery, I am relieved of that self-destructive itch.

      I have a feeling something wicked this way comes. The culture wars have been going on for years now but the intensity is rising to almost violent proportions. I'm no John Wayne but I feel like if I lived in that backwater town I would have to cajones to walk in that PTA meeting and let everyone know what's on my mind, but it's times like these that I'm glad to be living in LA. And there are people are the other side who are frothing mad at us and our yearning for peace and justice, at our refusal to become a fascist, christian state.

      Something gotta give.

      This and the statue of liberty with the cross down in Memphis makes me think there is a real life Plot Against America. "I'm a uniter not a divider"  - the very first Orwellian lie that started us down this sad, sad road. I'd be really sad if I wasn't so pissed.

      The world looks aflame from afar, but close up it's just fireflies in a jar

      by artofstarving on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 05:18:20 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Conflict junkies. (6+ / 0-)

      I think so many of these people are conflict junkies who got tired of fighting with their wives/husbands/girlfriends/boyfriends and decided to take it to the next level: Bicker with everyone on the internets.  Nedd Kareiva's last paragraph shows the glee he takes in bickering.

      It's a tough choice: Feed their bickering egos, or ignore them and let them continue harassing the innocent.  Unfortunately, I don't think we can stand by in good conscience and let them harass people, which means we'll just feed into it.

      Well, if Nedd Kareiva sets the rules of the game, then publishing his home or work address wouldn't be considered dirty, would it?  It's not hard to find that info for someone who owns a domain name.

      Go ahead and bicker back, Nedd Kareiva.  We know you're reading, either because you're following this thread or because you googled your name (as you no doubt do at least once a day) and found this.

    •  This is what the fascist pig looks like (3+ / 0-)

      Also in his bio:

      He is a 45 year old man from Chicago who began the Stop the ACLU web site in August of 2004. His background is varied, which includes a degree in Biblical studies. He once served as the associate director of the Christian Broadcasting Network's Chicago counseling center when such centers were operating in major cities across America. He spent 7+ years in real estate and mortgages and worked for the city of Chicago for 3 1/2 years. He served as the singles director in the 1990s for a church in southwest Chicago. He has a 9 year old son with Asperger's Syndrome.

      Nedd is a professional Scrabble player who played in many tournaments (and won a few) from across the Midwest for approximately 13 years, between 1992 & 2005 and was once in the top 150 players in North America, according to the National Scrabble Association.

      Nedd got involved in political issues back in the early 90s when his mother and late stepdad took an active position in the pro-life movement. They were pro-life activists and even went to jail for their stances. Thanks to them and a church willing to deal with issues, his political involvement began to set in motion.

    •  here's a thought (0+ / 0-)

      if this guy's giving out email address, let's get some!

      sign up for porn and spammers and viruses and let his web servers deal with it.

  •  Few days back (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bibble, kaye, greenearth

    when most of the people here were riling against Obama, I supported him.

    Today, I want to see Sen Obama come out strongly against this whole episode and do all he can to help that Jewish family.

    Help us support you and to continue to have faith in you, Sen Obama.

  •  Tell me again (8+ / 0-)

    how we're not living in a fascist state because the thuggery leading up to the Third Reich isn't happening here?

    •  Pre-war Germans (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Moody Loner, nasarius, boofdah, greenearth

      at least had the excuse of desperate economic conditions to lure them into the extremities of fascism. What I want to know is what on earth is leading Americans to ditch a working liberal democracy in favor of terror, violence, and autocracy?

      No man is an island entire of itself; every man is a part of a continent, a part of the main; if a clod be washed away by the sea, [America] is the less

      by Alien Abductee on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 05:25:52 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Didn't ya know? (3+ / 0-)

        9/11 changed everything.

        The Grasshopper Lies Heavy

        by FrankFrink on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 05:34:52 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  FDR knew this could happen. When he said (11+ / 0-)

        "the only thing we have to fear is fear itself."  Did people just think he was trying to be cute?  

        The man knew exactly what he was talking about.  Being the President of the United States during the rise of the third reich meant that he understood the social, economic, and political root causes of fascism better than just about any other human being alive.  He was serious folks, and his prophecy has been coming true a little bit more every day since 9/11.

        "Leave the gun ... take the cannoli." -8.38, -7.69

        by Balam on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 06:00:50 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Economy stinks (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Moody Loner, greenearth

        OK, it's not pre-WWII Germany or anything, but remember that real wages have fallen 0.5% since the November 2001 "expansion" began.  The economy is growing but the only people benefitting are those at the top.  Read bonddad's frequent diaries on the topic.  

        So the lower and middle classes are getting squeezed but yet they're being told the economy is great.  So it must be great - but great for everyone else not them because they're having trouble paying their bills.  Yeah, maybe they shouldn't have charged that new plasma tv on their credit card last year but still everyone has a plasma tv right?  It can't be their fault that things are tight, it has to be someone else's fault... their marriage is starting to crumble - must be all those gays undermining marriage.  Their finances are in trouble and the banks are starting to send nastygrams and the credit cards are raising interest rates - must be those Jews who control the finances in this country.  And 9/11 did change everything, it's all those damn towelheads we need to blow them out of the water.


        Democrats *do* have a plan for Social Security - it's called Social Security. -- Ed Schultz
        -3.13 -6.05

        by FredFred on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 07:23:45 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  When they say 'liberal', they mean 'Jew' (10+ / 0-)

    The conservatives have always linked Jews, liberals, and the ACLU.  But they're usually a bit more subtle about it nowadays.  Though not always.  Bill O'Reilly gives the game away every winter with his "Jews/Liberals Are Killing Christmas Like They Killed Christ" schtick.

  •  Fight back (9+ / 0-)

    Let these fuckers know that we won't be intimidated. We all know someone who adheres to the Christian right world view, and we've all been tolerant, but that should stop. Challenge their bullshit. Tell them to their faces that they are irrational hatemongers and liars, and make them angry. We need to shove these people back to the margins of American life, where they belong. They are not in the mainstream, and they never will be. They are freaks, and they deserve to be treated as such. You won't change any minds, but you'll let them know that they're in for a fight.  

    "Men use thought only to justify their wrongdoing, and employ speech only to conceal their thoughts." Voltaire

    by chimpwatch on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 05:04:29 PM PDT

  •  Good for the Goose..Good for the Gander (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Cynical Copper, greenearth

    Anyone want to undertake some coordinated research re: Mr. Kareiva?

    Anything's possible with Commander Cuckoo Bananas in charge. -Homer J. Simpson

    by Cheez Whiz on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 05:05:45 PM PDT

  •  When they can't compete (3+ / 0-)
    on the battlefield of ideas, the less intellectually endowed cheap shot artists try to use private personal individual information as the new way to score points in the wrong game.  That is reprehensible and done by those who can't argue or defend a point under the same laws afforded everyone by the Constitution.  Instead, the argument is severely undercut by morally depraved tawdry outfits like "Stop the ACLU" and others who believe "winning" at the expense of their shredded dignity and AWOL humanity is part of the political discourse.  The Constitution is where their differences are focused, but they make ad hominem attcks and public outing their WMD's of choice, undermining any beliefs they have in what it would mean to be an American citizen in good standing.  

    Have they no shame - NO! To allow for a discussion on the ideas and ideals embraced in the Constitution is a direct threat to their totalitarian and authoritarian beliefs, moral and lost values.

    Every time history repeats itself the price goes up - Anon.

    by Pithy Cherub on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 05:06:57 PM PDT

  •  see, here's an ordinary example (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Coherent Viewpoint, greenearth

    of KLAN adaptation to "modern" america.

    let's not dignify "stop the ACLU" brand. its popular authority is all "borrowed interest".

    let's not wait until we are certain some (ha) officer of this organization is photographed in a white sheet under moonlight by a bondfire with a burning cross.

    some one has fled their own home.

    let's call spade imperative when we see it where ever it operates to terrorize and destroy the constititutional rights of every fuckin US citizen: schools, service, franchise, property, sex, marriage, debt, and PERSONAL SECURITY.

    prosecute the motherfuckers whenever they crawl out from under their rocks.

    Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

    by MarketTrustee on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 05:07:53 PM PDT

  •  Where are the Jewish organizations? (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bustacap, boofdah, FrankFrink, greenearth

    Aren't they usually the first ones to step up when one of their own is being attacked?  I don't understand why they have not taken action to stop this kind of bigotry.

    The government should not be in the business of saving souls.

    by LynChi on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 05:08:34 PM PDT

  •  I drive pass Bergen-Belsen ... (27+ / 0-)

    ... just off the highway between Hamburg and Hannover twice every day on my way back and forth to work. And I must admit that although I've often thought of going over to see the memorial there, but still haven't done it.

    There's no point in worrying about Godwin's law any more. Make no mistake, what has happened in Delaware is just the sort of thing that happened in Germany in the early thirties -- Jews were isolated, humiliated, taunted, and driven out of their communities. Their children were not excepted from the harassment. And the people who did these things were entirely satisfied, proud of what they did. Their behavior was tolerated, considered bold, and was increasingly met with triumphalism. And ordinary people were willing to do more and more, all moral threshholds gradually fading away.

    As I said in comment to Troutfishing's diary, the lesson learned is Wehret den Anfängen, stop it before it starts. The time to act is now.

    Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

    by Buckeye Hamburger on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 05:08:49 PM PDT

  •  Fascism and Religion (7+ / 0-)

    Germ of a thought here, but -- we perhaps have confused the intertwined notions of anti-Semitism with Fascism more than is due in our times, because of:

    Recent history.  Many of us were born and grew up in the wake of the Holocaust, meeting the few survivors with numbers tattooed on their arms, and going to school with their children and grandchildren.

    Europe's legacy of slaughtering Jews was definitely carried on by Hitler -- (was Mussolini as fanatically anti-Semitic?  I don't know) -- as a launchpad to his own power.

    The U.S. -- a continent/nation more fanatically devoted to religion than 20th century Europe, is much more likely to launch into Fascism via a religious vehicle, but it is not necessary that it also be overtly anti-Semitic.

    In fact, as the present theocratic fascist movement indicates (but also hides rather poorly its eventual "plan" for the Jews), avoiding the appearance of anti-Semitism is an easy tactical cloak for its larger fascistic intentions.

    In other words, in the most Leo Straussian way, religion be damned: whatever it takes to grab and keep Power is the "Right" way to go...

    If a thousand men were not to pay their tax bills this year, that would not be a violent and bloody measure, as it would be to pay them, and enable the State...

    by HenryDavid on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 05:09:27 PM PDT

  •  One, Or None. (21+ / 0-)

    Was the fictional slogan of future conservatives in an old diary series called the Partisan Wars.

    There is only one way to fight such bullies: Fight back, and in very large numbers.

    Help Each Other.

    Eventually, there will be a Kossack in the crosshairs.

    If it's ever me, or my children, I expect to be able to get help when I call on it here.

    Because you have that commitment from me.

    Hey, Republicans: We Brought It On. :)

    by cskendrick on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 05:09:31 PM PDT

  •  Has the TV wingnuttia been covering this? (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Radiowalla, bustacap, boofdah, greenearth

    Hannity, O'Reilly and the rest of the ACLU hating fucktards?

    •  probably not yet in their interest (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      to shine a light on such behavior, at least unless it reaches some critical mass.

      (On the other hand I'll bet that Mr. Kareiva has hit the "refresh" button on this diary a thousand times by now)

  •  swarm them (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Blutodog, nasarius, FrankFrink, greenearth

    maybe a national flash-mob type network should evolve so that meetings like the one described (fascist rallies if you prefer), can be suddenly become populated with opposing (yet law-abiding) voices. Let the thugs see what it feels like to be outnumbered.

  •  This is disturbing on so many levels (20+ / 0-)

    the lawfirm where I work once represented a family who, because of a media feeding frenzy about a lawsuit, were the target of this type of public harassment.  They lived for months with a security guard in their home; the shopped miles from their community; their children (the youngest only ten) was harassed at school.  The received bomb threats, dogshit in the mail, threatening calls.

    The wife never recovered: she has PTSD.  They moved 2,500 miles from where the incidents took place, but still, 12 years after the fact, the trauma lives on.

    So please, never, ever suggest such actions are justifiable, even as retaliation for reprehensible actions.  They are not.

    Leave the cat alone, for what has the cat done, that you should so afflict it with tape? - Ian Frazier, Lamentations of the Father

    by Frankenoid on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 05:10:40 PM PDT

  •  It seems that the Stop the ACLU site (9+ / 0-)

    has only three topics for articles: ACLU, War on Terror, and (of course), Communism.

    If they're going to create such a shitty, assaholic site, can't they at least try to be a little less predictable?

    "The mistakes of each generation will just fade like a radio station if you drive out of range." -Ani Difranco

    by righteousbabe on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 05:11:56 PM PDT

    •  Strictly Bushism. (10+ / 0-)

      They're a product of some of the far-far-right spittle of the conservative blogosphere, so it's no surprise that they're both transparently focused on Bushism, and nearly incoherent in their perceived "issues" and weird lack of focus.

      They're also so enamored with sloganeering that they've peppered their site with graphics that look like those little packs of satirical rub-on tattoos you used to get as prizes when you were a kid. That, apparently, is the true face of Bushism: a bunch of intellectual eight year olds.

      •  That First Link in Your Story (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        goes to which seems to be a different, albeit equally disgusting organization. This Nedd guy is from .org. Thought you might wanna fix that.

        The other thing is, it took me mere minutes to find this guy's home phone number. I know we NEVER expose such info on dKos, but how long before this DOES break down into an even uglier tit for tat? As always, we progressives are playing by higher standards while they do whatever the hell they want and mock as all along.

        I'm looking forward to these asswipes reaping what they sow.

        Ready to make nice? HELL NO!

        by RNinNC on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 06:52:21 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  They're not the only ones. (0+ / 0-)

        This organization, which is hilariously called the "Independent" Women's Forum, touts itself as empowering women by teaching them to wean themselves off the government teat; yet its underlying themes are more sinisterly Bushite on a broad level.

        Check out these gems, from their About IWF page (bolding is mine), which cleverly couch the language of the far right into touchy, feely "normal-sounding" double-speak:

        Our Mission

        The Independent Women's Forum was established to combat the women-as-victim, pro-big-government ideology of radical feminism. We seek to restore, strengthen, and extend that which promotes women's well being by advancing the principles of self-reliance, political freedom, economic liberty, and personal responsibility.

        Our Vision

        IWF is the essential, informed, articulate voice of thoughtful and caring mainstream women in the policy and media battles that shape our nation's future. While showing that we have both a head and heart, we promote voluntary, cooperative approaches to life's challenges that can brighten the future.

        What does IWF do?

        IWF provides a voice for responsible, mainstream women who embrace common sense over divisive ideology. We make that voice heard in the U.S. Supreme Court, among other decision makers in Washington, and across America's airwaves as we:

        • Counter the dangerous influence of radical feminism in the courts
        • Combat corrosive feminist ideology on campus
        • Change the terms of the debate on quality of life issues affecting American women

        Through programs, such as our legal, campus, and work/family projects, the IWF will continue to:

        • Educate women on the benefits of the free market and the danger of big government
        • Challenge conventional feminist myths with accurate information and lively debate
        • Provide a forum for women who are not represented by radical feminist groups

        One of this Republican front group's members wrote a book that's even more head-explodingly hilarious. It's called the PIG guide (how appropriate) to women, sex, and feminism. Read more about it here. God, these people are so mind-numbingly backwards!!!

    •  No (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      Because shitty assholes stink; there's nothing more predictable than that.

  •  I do have to say I'm surprised (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    boofdah, greenearth

    The Right keeps saying how they're trying to court Jews, but then it pulls this.  What hypocrites (but then again, I already knew that)!

  •  Will Sen. Obama now PLEASE stand up? (16+ / 0-)

    As was noted last week, Sen. Barack Obama blindly advanced the false Republican Right frame about progressive Democrats and religion --namely, that progressives suffer from some imagined "discomfort" with religion, and that all supporters of our secular government are atheists who seek to block religious people from publicly practicing their faith.

    Now we see, in this sad incident, the real problem America faces regarding religion and government: that it is right-wing sectarians, not progressive religious pluralists, who are the militant agitators of religious-political strife in the US.

    The truth is that the sectarian Religious Right do not believe that every American should be free to worship and believe according to his/her conscience. They see it as their god-given duty to convert anyone who believes differently from them, and to force non-believers to confrom to their religious ideology.

    And they view government as a legitimate tool for their religious coercion.

    I hope Sen. Obama will find the courage to speak as openly and forthrightly against these bigots as he did those of us progressives Americans of faith who seek to defend the US constitution and protect religious pluralism in our country.

    •  Thank you (15+ / 0-)

      I'm so sick of people, including Democrats, blindly advancing the mainstream media frame that the religious right is not intolerant at all, but that somehow liberals who want the government to remain religiously neutral are the ones that are so intolerant of all Christians and are so out of touch with the the mainstream.

      Check out my lte archive at and feel free to use my ideas

      by DemDachshund on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 05:17:48 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  And more to the point... (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        aitchdee, papercut, boofdah

        ...that the sectarian hazing by this extremist fringe constitutes "religius faith," but the beliefs of the Jewish Americans does not.

        The kicker is that when patriotic Americans try to stop these extremists from hazing people of other faiths, they complain they're being unfairly told to "check their faith at the door before entering the public square."


    •  See the Cross on Flag graphic (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Blutodog, bibble, joanneleon, FrankFrink

      on their website.  That tells me all I need to know.

      We must never lose it, or sell it, or give it away. We must never let them take it from us.

      by Fabian on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 05:18:36 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Religious dictates are not open to discussion (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      aitchdee, boofdah, Balam

      I know that Obama said that it was perfectly valid to discuss religion in a political context, but religion is not conducive to political discourse. Organized religion is all about absolutist doctrine and not the exchange of ideas and compromise that is the lifeblood of democracy. Organized religion is closer to demagoguery than democracy. Religious beliefs, as opposed to political beliefs, are not meant to be challenged. The use of religious beliefs to advance an argument is clearly intended to create an unassailable basis for an idea by imbuing the idea with a divine origin. Anyone who attacks the idea is attacking the speaker's religion or god. We cannot allow such religious doctrine to enter the political arena if we wish to honestly debate issues and resolve problems. Religion has no place in politics.  

  •  This is despicable (8+ / 0-)

    This is not about stopping the ACLU. This is about telling individuals they do not have the right to sue for civil rights.

  •  Our nation is full of sick people (7+ / 0-)

    and our government encourages these people to do this.  Fascism indeed.

    We've entered the dark age of American politics, and only a complete governmental reversal can head off this disaster.

    I want to go vomit now.

    There is hardly a political question in the United States which does not sooner or later turn into a judicial one. -5.25, -4.67

    by wolverinethad on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 05:15:51 PM PDT

  •  Joe Biden wanted to help but... (4+ / 0-)

    He's got an appointment with the hairplug specialist and then it's cocktail weenies with the MBNA lobbyists.

    "There is very little difference between the commonplace and the avant-garde." -- Salvador Dali

    by Slothrop on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 05:15:58 PM PDT

    •  Why you guys hating on Biden? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      Look, I live in Delaware, so I have a different slant on all of this.

      We all love Joe Biden as well as Tom Carper and Mike Castle.  Sure they have their moments in which they embarrass themselves and the state, (the senate judiciary committee hearings come into mind in which Biden talked more than the judges), but we still love them.

      Part of the reasoning is that they do their best to keep Delaware businnesses such as MBNA in Delaware. Delaware has extremely low taxes( we have no sales tax).  However, this still is not enough, as we are a small state and we can't compete with larger market cities such as LA or Boston. So, that's why we need to rely on our leaders to keep the businnesses here as much as possible.  If our leaders like Biden alienate companies like MBNA and the companies leave, the state will suffer greatly.  And Delaware is so small that even a medium sized company that employs only 5,000 people in Delaware can have a disastrous effect on the state economy.  So we need them to stay.

  •  No 'Kareiva' found in white pages (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    chingchongchinaman, greenearth

    Too bad old Ned Kareiva, or any Kareiva, isn't listed in Delaware. He can keep his address and number unlisted while exposing others to public castigation. Niiiiiice man.

    •  Shows you... (0+ / 0-)

      ...that he was thinking ahead.

      "It's only in books that the officers of the detective force are superior to the weakness of making a mistake." (Wilkie Collins, The Moonstone)

      by chingchongchinaman on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 05:25:03 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  check property records (0+ / 0-)

      land ownership records are public.  You might have to go to the Courthouse, but there should be a name index.  Some jurisdictions have land records online, although often they will not allow an offsite search by name.

      if his organization takes contributions, then they have to be registered in some fashion or they are breaking the law.   The registration will be atthe state level.  In many states, if they are a state non-profit registration will be through office of Secretary of State, and responsible officers will have to be listed with contact information of some sort.  

      One can also do a Lexis/Nexis on his name and I am sure find some hits perhaps beyond the news stories of the past week.  Perhaps one can also do one on the organization.

      And of course, there is always the old whois for the website to trace the ownership.

      White pages are not the only way to trace someone down.

      Those who can, do. Those who can do more, TEACH!

      by teacherken on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 05:29:05 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  If i recall correctly (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      nasarius, joanneleon, FrankFrink

      this is a national organization. He may not be in Delaware.

      And let's not use their tactics, please. They're the proto-fascists. We're not.

      They're not just a number, Tony Snow.

      by terrypinder on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 05:30:28 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Not suggesting using their tactics... (0+ / 0-)

        ...I was only showing what a fascist bully will do when his ass isn't on the line.
            However, I agree with Teacher Ken that his organization should be investigated for the contributions they take, their legality, etc.
            My point is this: take their asses to court. Get the ACLU to countersue and then bankrupt them fighting the case. What? Do you think you can stop these people by turning the other cheek?

        •  shining a light (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          on their business practices, yes. I've no problem with that. It's how JimmyJeff got outed for the whore (literally and figuratively) that he is. But in that case people took it too far and harrased his family. That's wrong.

          They're not just a number, Tony Snow.

          by terrypinder on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 05:38:30 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Metaquestion (0+ / 0-)

        Where's "the line" - that which we won't cross because if we have then we have become that which we claim to oppose?

        For example, there was a post at AmericaBlog I think about how the Illinois Dem delegation was too wimpy to redistrict after the Republicans redistricted Texas.  Had we done so we could have redistricted Hastert out of the House and picked up a couple seats.  But we don't want to do that - we don't want to play within the rules but in a manner that seems to make a mockery out of the process.  Some call us taking the high road - others call us weak.

        When this bully comes through and ruins this family's life - should we not use their tactics - which leaves this guy just laughing his butt off at us and them?  Or do we give them a taste of their own medicine but taint ourselves in the process?

        Where is "the line?"  I don't know.  I'm no Christian but Jesus said to turn the other cheek - well, that's just a good way to get slapped silly sometimes - other times it's the only good/moral thing to do.

        No answers in my post - just questions.


        Democrats *do* have a plan for Social Security - it's called Social Security. -- Ed Schultz
        -3.13 -6.05

        by FredFred on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 07:05:06 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  He's from the Chicago area (0+ / 0-)

      If you search for his last name and Illinois, you'll find his telephone # soon enough.

      We have seen the black suns
      Pouring forth the night

      -- Clark Ashton Smith, "Nyctalops"

      by bustacap on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 05:41:23 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Precious. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      bustacap, greenearth's owner/administrative information is kept under lock and key with Domains By Proxy.

      I *heart* hypocrisy.

    •  That's because he doesn't live in Delaware (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Mr. Kareiva lives in Chicago, and if you knew anything about how to locate information on website owners, you could find his name/address/phone number (I've found all three).

      I'm not about to release someone's information, but there are ways to do this. Perhaps you should research "how to find the owner of a website"?

      By the way, I'm from Delaware (moved away years ago, but I was born and raised in the saner northern part) and I have Jewish family there (my sister converted), they are good people, and these fascist so-called "Christians" in Sussex county are completely confused on religion. God wants people to put down the swords and turn them into plowshares, so that man will make war no more. Threatening Jewish people who don't believe in Jesus isn't going to earn them any points at the pearly gates.

      •  thank you (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        bustacap, optimusprime

        There are some crazies in the state, no doubt about it. But there aren't THAT many, and even Sussex isn't totally nuts.

        Parts of it, sure. But not ALL of it.

        •  You're welcome (not sure what I did?) (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Pazquackman of Delaware
          I know that there is no absolute. I know people in all three counties that are wonderful people. I used to go to school with a girl in New Castle County who moved to Georgetown. Very sweet person, wouldn't hurt a fly, and she was a real Christian as well. By the way, I know some not so nice people in New Castle County also ;) - I grew up in NCC for 27 years, it's hard to not find at least ONE jerk in all that time.

          Every state has their share, there are many more down here in Florida! LOL (only because of the larger population base of course).

  •  1.Grab Every Lawyer You Can. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    hester, bustacap, greenearth
    1. Sue-early and often.                      
    1. Rinse and repeat.

    Republicans- Proudly Destroying the Middle Class of the United States

    by Ky DEM on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 05:17:40 PM PDT

    •  Would somebody please tell me (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      what happened to TOLERANCE? And NEGOTATION? And DIPLOMACY?

      What is this with suing over ever little slight? There are other ways of resolving things, you know.

      •  'Little Slight'???? (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        aitchdee, jay23, greenearth

        Republicans- Proudly Destroying the Middle Class of the United States

        by Ky DEM on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 06:48:00 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Little Slight??? (7+ / 0-)

        Have you read the article? And, have in your repeated postings on this thread, figured out yet that the problem is not the lawsuit, but the individuals who threatened the family as a result of the lawsuit, and that now a far-right site has published the personal contact information of the family in order to increase the harassment against them?

        This isn't about the lawsuit. This is about threatened violence against a family. That should be crystal clear.

        •  threats are wrong, of course (0+ / 0-)

          But how were they dealt with? And WHEN were they dealt with?

          Does anybody know? Were there arrests? Charges?

          I've gone searching through the local papers, and I find no mention of anything other than they 'feared' retaliation. Nothing that indicated that anybody did anything to them. Nothing to indicate that anybody even did actually threaten them.

          District faces prayer lawsuit

          I don't have access to arrest records, so I have no clue if anybody was arrested or charged with anything, or any restraining orders filed. If someone does, that would be helpful.

          You know, we're as capable of going off the deep end as anybody.

        •  Dear (non-denominational) God, thank you (0+ / 0-)

          for saying that, Hunter....

          ...the White House will be adorned by a downright moron...H.L. Mencken

          by bibble on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 07:39:15 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Tolerance, Negotiation, Diplomacy (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        Did you ever read the story?

        It tells you what happened to negotiation and diplomacy: the family asked the Board to consider a change in religion policy. There were discussions for six months or more. A resolution was proposed and recommended by the Board's insurance company, but rejected by the Board. Only then was the lawsuit brought by the parents.

        You also asked "what happened to TOLERANCE?" Tolerance for whom, the victims or the bigots for whom you are appearing to be an apologist?

      •  so your interpretation of the story so far (0+ / 0-)

        is that this Jewish family got themselves all lawyered-up over some small religious slight which probably could have been resolved without resorting to a big legal fuss if only the family had first approached the Christian school board with a bit of neighborly tolerance and a willingness to negotiate? Is that a fair assessment of your reading of the situation?

        The family, please recall, felt threatened and fearful and harassed; so much so they fled their home, moved away. Do you disbelieve their description of their own feelings? Now a second family suing the same school board for the same reasons as the first family has actually done so under fictitious names, so great was their fear of retribution. Do you suspect it's just another case of religious thin-skinnedness and/or a failure to approach the school board with tolerance, an openness to negotiate, and diplomatic good faith?

        I mean, what is it about this particular story, mac, that provoked of all things a caterwaul of anti-litigious sentiment from you? Does my surprise surprise you?

        Is nothing secular?

        by aitchdee on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 10:06:19 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  It was going to end up in this direction. (12+ / 0-)

    For years we have heard Oh'Really and the Fox hunt squeal about "liberal media", a sanitized version of "Jewish-owned media" from yesteryear. I had to resist throwing a brick at the tv everytime they used descripters that were shades away from "jewish".  

    I mean, where are the extreme liberals they are going after? Seriously now, it's not the crunchy clog-wearing Vermonters, though they'll do in a pinch.  Who are the "liberal elites" they fear so much?  They aren't talking about the upwardly mobile saab-driving latte drinkers, they are talking about people with deeper pockets than that.  

    And what's with the "Christian nation" nonsense?

    Ask youself when you hear these nuts, who are they really talking about?

    •  Lynchings (10+ / 0-)

      Lynchings don't just happen out of nowhere folks. It takes a society sick to heart with evil that brings on this kind of behavior. In Germany the nazis didn't create anti-semitism nor did they need to encourage it.  Centuries of Jew hatred in Germany had already created in the German character a willingness to act against Jews and anyone that tried to defend them. The same was true in our South against blacks and sorry to say still is to a large extent. Oh, it's buried right now but it's only an inch beneath the surface. Hatred against Jews is also right beneath the surface as well. Jews are the "universal" others the Christ killers and destroyers of Christian kulture in the eyes of many fundamentalist Christians.
       These people are the core and base of the GOP now unfortunately, the leadership of the GOP has sown the wind with hatred and we now are seeing society in general reap the whirlwind.

      "It's better to die on your feet then live on your knees" E. Zapata

      by Blutodog on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 05:28:39 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I was visiting Atlanta about a year ago (6+ / 0-)

        and I went to see Dr. King's grave.  At the museum they had this one photograph of a lynching ... well ... post-lynching.  The victim was hanging limp from a rope tied to a tree, and the people who had murdered him were in the background.  On the right side of the picture stood a young white girl, probably no more than 6 or 7 years old.  She was looking up at the dead man ... with a grin on her face.  You could see the pleasure in her eyes at this poor man's wretched fate.  

        I looked at the date on the photograph.  It had been taken in the 1930's.  "That little girl might be still alive," I thought, and a chill went down my spine.

        We are not so distant from these atrocities as we would like to think.

        "Leave the gun ... take the cannoli." -8.38, -7.69

        by Balam on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 06:22:24 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Yes (0+ / 0-)

          Many of that an entire generation is still alive. The south is in the saddle now and we can clearly see in what direction this element of our society wants to go. The sad part is much of this sickness grows out of their so called religious beliefs. The GOP is now largely the home for these people and it too is just as sick.

          "It's better to die on your feet then live on your knees" E. Zapata

          by Blutodog on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 06:43:41 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Yes, there is a sickness in our society (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        And these people are the sickest of the sick. They are Rove's stormtroopers.

        "Men use thought only to justify their wrongdoing, and employ speech only to conceal their thoughts." Voltaire

        by chimpwatch on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 06:34:20 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Wasn't Christ a Jew (0+ / 0-)

        or am I missing something?  I'm just not well versed on extremist fundy thought...

        The intrinsic nature of Power is such that those who seek it most are least qualified to wield it.

        by mojo workin on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 07:46:49 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Not to worry (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    FrankFrink, Ky DEM, greenearth

    Israel has a plan for any current or future ideas of another Jewish holocaust that Goebbels wannabes might be hatching in their rancid little brains.  Incidents like these are carefully watched.  If anyone might "disappear," it's not likely to be the Mona Dobrich's this time around.  

  •  Jews and the Christian fundies. (7+ / 0-)

    The only reason fundamentalist Christians profess being friendly to Jews and Israel is because they want to get all Jews back to Israel so Jesus can return. Read some of the Dominionist tracts out here on this subject. Not only do they want all Jews in Israel but they want 90% of them dead as well. Then according to these ass klowns the remaining 10% will accept Christ and he will then return to earth to rule for a thousand years. Sound familiar 1,000 yr. Reich etc. These fuckwads are worse then Nazis if you ask me. Any Jew that buys their phony friendship is a fool. With friends like these folks who needs enemies!

    "It's better to die on your feet then live on your knees" E. Zapata

    by Blutodog on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 05:19:09 PM PDT

    •  Reminds me of a Twilight Zone (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      episode: "To Serve Man."

      •  Exactly (0+ / 0-)

        Good analogy. Abetter one though was how the Nazid concealed their murderous motives from the world and even their vicitms. They went to extraordinary lengths to make sure their prey didn't try to flee or fight back. They used hope against these people. remember the charade of re-settlement? Ever watch these ads on TV about Christians funding poor Russian Jews to re-settle in Zion? Thes are nothing more then the same sick game. I hate these bastards and have no illusions about what they are up to. I havean Orthodox jewish buddy who believed these scumbags were friends of Israel till I sent him some of their tracts. He was shocked at the calculating deceptive ness.
         The whole Bu$hCo lie is built on the same kind of Orwellian evil. It's the twisted cross. That's what the swastika was about taking truth and goodness and twisting it into EVIL without even those believing in it knowing!

        "It's better to die on your feet then live on your knees" E. Zapata

        by Blutodog on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 06:49:49 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Delaware is an odd state (0+ / 0-)

    Just as a disclaimer, I quite like Delaware and have considered moving to the part of it that is located closest to me (the northeastern part of the state).

    Most of the state is located on the Delmarva peninsula, so named because it has pieces of three states on it:  Delaware, Maryland and Virginia.  

    The eastern shore of the Chesapeake is located on that peninsula and is accessible to the DC area from a bridge that connects to Annapolis.  As we know, some people from the beltway are fond of that area for vacation homes and such.  The eastern shore is mostly in Maryland, but just adjacent to Delaware.

  •  Sixth graders are dangerous (6+ / 0-)

    If we don't let Christianists harass them in their homes, they may grow up believing that they are full citizens with the backing of the United States Constitution.  What madness that would be.

    We will appoint as...officials, only men that know the law of the realm and are minded to keep it well. -- Magna Carta, #46 (-6.25, -7.18)

    by DH from MD on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 05:29:05 PM PDT

    •  sixth graders are (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      basically obnoxious, and will bully somebody if they think they can get away with it.

      I think they've been that way since time immemorial. I got bullied/harrassed/teased, my son did, but my daughter didn't. She was the cool one. We were the nerds.

      Make waves, or have your family make waves, and you'll be singled out. Is it right? No. Does it happen? Yes. Should the school administration deal with it? Yes. Did they in this case? Apparently not.

  •  And people (9+ / 0-)

    wonder why I continue to say NOT to ignore Ann Coulter and her freakish ilk.

    These people ARE HER PEOPLE folks. Make the connection.

    We ignore them AT OUR PERIL.

    They're not just a number, Tony Snow.

    by terrypinder on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 05:29:26 PM PDT

    •  See my 'conflict junkie' comment upthread. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      Yes, we feed her ego, and that's bad.  But the shit she's selling is too harmful for us to let her get away with it.

      If you know anybody who thinks Ann Coulter's type of thinking is in any way acceptable, talk to them about it.  (I feel like one of those PSAs -- "If you think your kids are on drugs, talk to them about it.")  Ask them if they think she's funny.  Ask them if they think it's hysterical that she suggests killing people who disagree with her.  Make them uncomfortable.  They should be uncomfortable.

      This is the kind of shit that, if we let it slide, will only get worse.  And one day, we may be saying about whoever takes her place, "Just ignore her when she says we haven't hanged enough Muslim Americans to send a suitable message."

      Look, Ann Coulter is gonna be heard no matter what we do.  The fucktards who run TV news will make sure of that.  Let's call her and her ilk out.

  •  Question... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    What do people here think are the odds that the NYT, WaPo, and others of the widely loathed MSM would cover this?  Of course, it would have the effect of giving these scumbags a national stage, but....

    "It's only in books that the officers of the detective force are superior to the weakness of making a mistake." (Wilkie Collins, The Moonstone)

    by chingchongchinaman on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 05:30:20 PM PDT

    •  They NEVER cover anything in DE (3+ / 0-)

      Especially if it's in the lower part of the state. Never.

      I've lived here over 20 yrs. We've had a few pretty strange murders (not many, thank God). One shortly after we moved here, where some woman killed her husband, dismembered him, and put the pieces all over the county. They found his head about 2 blocks from my house in a dumpster.

      Then there was the couple that stole a baby and killed the parents (left the other kids alone though). They were tried separately, and the husband got off, the wife got life. It was a VERY strange case.

      Then there was the girl from the good neighborhood who got involved with a really bad kid, tried to break it off, and he came to the house and killed her.

      Did you ever hear of them? I doubt it. Will you? I doubt it. Yet if they'd happened in NY or LA or some other big city, they'd have been front page news.

      I'm sure most small towns have similar things. If you don't have a big paper, or a TV station, you might as well not exist.

    •  Is there a pretty blond woman missing? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      If not, I don't see why they should care about these backwaters.

      •  I guess... (0+ / 0-)

        ...maybe it can make it into the MSM like the diary about the whole right wing practice of publishing addresses of people to intimidate them (this incident, the Malkin posting about the Univ. of CA anti-war students, etc.).  I perhaps should have thought about it a little more.

        "It's only in books that the officers of the detective force are superior to the weakness of making a mistake." (Wilkie Collins, The Moonstone)

        by chingchongchinaman on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 05:47:05 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  What are local residents doing to counter this? (6+ / 0-)

    Like many of you, I find this disgraceful. And we can (and will) rant and rage, send e-mails to the district and call on Sen. Biden to denounce the wingnuts who have harassed this family.

    But most of us don't live there and our comments and reactions will simply be brushed aside as interference from outsiders.

    It's the people who live and pay taxes in Delaware who need to step up and take back THEIR school district. They first need to let their school board members know -- in no uncertain terms -- that this is intolerable. And if residents are ignored, none of these school board members have unlimited terms and CAN be voted out.

    In the meantime, what WE can do is to ensure that this kind of poison isn't spread into OUR local school districts. And that means we need to attend meetings, monitor school policies and school board candidates and VOTE.

    •  Shining a light on it (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      aitchdee, greenearth

      I bet this school district would never expect to get regional or national attention.  Shining the light on things like this increases the chance of people stepping up and saying it's intolerable.  At least I hope so.  Even though the website's response is pretty rabid, it might be a good sign because they reacted pretty quickly after Hunter posted this story.

      •  Regional or national attention (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        It seems the school board members are receiving advice from the right-wing Rutherford Institute, which reportedly lists cases where it advocates for religious speech, homophobic speech, cross burning, and confederate flags. According to the same source:

        Rutherford's founder, John W. Whitehead "hoped to influence American culture by encouraging Christians to play a more active role in the courts and in society as a whole." And he takes partial credit for increased involvement in politics by Jerry Fallwell and Pat Robertson. Americans United for Separation of Church and State was paraphrsed as "Whitehead's Institute has a long history of using standard right-wing themes in fund-raising letters, including attacks on public education, gay people and separation of church and state."


        Rutherford's most well known case was when it paid for Paula Trip's sexual harrasment case against Bill Clinton.

        So it may be that the Rutherford Institute is actually hoping to have a national impact.

    •  I don't have kids in school anymore (3+ / 0-)

      but our district includes a lot of active duty and retired military, tons of very diverse cultures, and probably every religion under the sun.

      And I'm in DE.

      Indian River is very rural, very insulated, very wary of outsiders.

  •  Hunter, thank you very much (7+ / 0-)

    This is the face of fascism -- supposedly Christian, violent and aggressive, and painted in the colors of the flag. This is the America they are trying for.

    this needed to be said, and you said it very well.

    --"Everything in the State, nothing outside the State, nothing against the State"

    -- Mussolini

    Katherine Yurica has transcripts of Pat Robertson's television show, the 700 Club from 1985 where he explained his strategy to strip the federal judiciary of its constitutional powers.

    Roberston wanted to reduce or eliminate the power of the judiciary. He denied that the Constitution provides a system of checks and balances between three separate and equal branches of government...

    In fact, Robertson went further: he denied that the judiciary is a co-equal branch of the government. Instead, he saw the judiciary as a department of the legislative branch, which he believed was the dominant center of power in the nation.

    the religious right will tell you that Dominionism means "Lordship." but dominion means "to own."  

    ownership is what the religious right is determined to obtain.

  •  Is this (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bustacap, greenearth, PhantomFly

    even for real? It boggles my mind that shit like this goes on.

  •  Krystallnacht . . . (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    hester, bustacap, FrankFrink, greenearth

    wait just a bit and you'll see it here.

    Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries!

    by Cartoon Peril on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 05:33:14 PM PDT

  •  Can we make Nazi comparisons now? (8+ / 0-)

    I know... Godwin's Law applies.  But this is getting ridiculous. Chasing Jewish people out of town? What's next? I know that we aren't allowed to make references to Nazi's because such references are ususally totally irrelevant to the current argument. But what about when there is a direct correlation? Are we allowed to refer to the Nazi party when people are actually ACTING LIKE NAZI'S?  It isn't as if the Nazi movement just decided one day to start gassing Jews. The hatred and anger and arrogance built up slowly. I'm betting that it happened a lot like it's happening here. First a few communities decided that they had all the answers, and they decided that Jews were a threat to their way of life.  Then the idea caught on, and more and more people started blaming Jews (and Gays and Gypsies, or is that "Liberals") for all of their problems.  Those who don't learn from history are condemned to repeat it. I think we need to suspend Godwin's Law until these idiots stop acting like Nazi's.

  •  Not in my town (10+ / 0-)

    A couple of comments over in Troutfishing's diary told the story of how people of Billings, Montana responded to an upsurge of anti-Semitic hatred in 1993. Among many other acts of community protest, the local paper printed pictures of menorahs with the declaration "Not in our town", and people around Billings hung them in their windows.

    Not in my town, not in my country, not in my world.

    Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

    by Buckeye Hamburger on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 05:39:42 PM PDT

  •  i don't understand the demonization of the ACLU (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Radiowalla, bibble, greenearth, PhantomFly

    that has taken place over the past 15 years.  it just chaps my ass. disclosure i'm a card carrying member.

    The eyes of fear want you to put bigger locks on your doors, buy guns, close yourself off. The eyes of love, instead, see all of us as one. -Bill Hicks

    by waitingforvizzini on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 05:41:53 PM PDT

    •  It's easy to understand (well, maybe not) (7+ / 0-)

      The ACLU is committed to defending constitutional rights and freedoms for all Americans.  That's the catch; these rights extend even to people we don't agree with.  Liberals understand that.  Conservatives, of the Malkin / Coulter / Hannity / Limbaugh / "Karrieva" / O'Reilly ilk do not.  

      Or perhaps they do, in a subliminal way, in one sense.  This is in that they find loathsome the fact that people whose personal choices in life that they find repulsive (e.g. gays, Democrats, liberals) also have the right to "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness", without harassment or fear.  We all suffer, to varying degrees, from the subconscious hypocrisy that we believe in freedom for those who agree with us.  Liberals are, I would say, a lot more honest in acknowledging that civil rights and liberties belong not just to our side, but even to those on the opposite ideological spectrum.  There are even honest conservatives who accept this.  The people listed above are not such honest people.

      Basically, the contrast in ideology between these "Stop the ACLU" thugs and us can be summarized thus:

      Us:  "I disagree with everything you say, but will defend your right to say it."

      "Stop the ACLU":  "I disagree with everything you say, and therefore I have the right to walk all over you and make your lives miserable in every way possible."

      Sound familiar? (Sorry for the rant.)

      "It's only in books that the officers of the detective force are superior to the weakness of making a mistake." (Wilkie Collins, The Moonstone)

      by chingchongchinaman on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 06:25:39 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  it is scapegoating (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      waitingforvizzini, greenearth

      same as illegal immigration, gay marriage, nonexistent WMD's.

      And they want progressives to be drawn into point-by-point debate over these particular issues, because that conceals the fact that scapegoating was the real goal all along.

      Probably nothing produces a stronger sense of community than collective scapegoating.

    •  It's disturbingly simple (0+ / 0-)

      When the GOP absorbed the Dixiecrats, they also absorbed the Dixiecrats' hatred of civil liberties.  Since the ACLU is America's most prominent defender of civil liberties, that makes them the obvious target.

      And lest you think that this is only some wingnut fringe phenomenon, remember that Chimpy's "moderate" dad attacked Dukakis for being an ACLU member back in '88.

  •  The funny thing about the ACLU (9+ / 0-)

    is that they stand up for Christians' rights too.

    Almost a year ago, there was a case here in Wisconsin of a college student who was an RA in his dorm and was told to stop holding Bible studies in his room because the school had an unwritten policy against RAs leading religious activities in the dorms. The ACLU gladly took on - and won - his suit against the school for infringing on his rights.

    But conservatives simply ignore the fact that the ACLU is bipartisan - libertarian, really - because it's detrimental to their agenda.

    "I believe we are on an irreversible trend toward more freedom and democracy - but that could change." - Dan Quayle -6.38, -7.38

    by PhantomFly on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 05:44:04 PM PDT

  •  The 'Stop the ACLU' guy lives in Chicago (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    vassmer, PhantomFly

    Someone on another blog did a Who Is and found his address. I thought about driving by and taking a pic so that it could be posted. It only seems fair.  

  •  The gates of hell (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Radiowalla, bustacap, greenearth

    were pried open with a diebold crowbar.

    What would you attempt to do if you knew you could not fail? unknown

    by moon in the house of moe on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 05:45:05 PM PDT

  •  Your Stop the ACLU link. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bustacap, FixerMX, greenearth

    It points to, which is hosted by Short Consulting out of Colorado.

    Nedd Kareiva's site is That site does not link to the .com, .net, or .us domains, though they obviously have the same purpose.

  •  Now this 'attack' is on their front page (4+ / 0-)

    Stop The ACLU Smeared
    by Jay on 07-05-06 @ 7:22 pm Filed under ACLU, War On Terror, News

    The lefties are going crazy over what Nedd from Stop The ACLU.Org did in his campaign to expose ACLU plaintiffs. Well, first off...I don’t know why KOS linked to me. I’m I didn’t publish anyone’s address, so you can all move along. Stop the and are two seperate things. We support each others main cause of exposing the dangerous agenda of the ACLU, but obviously use different methods. I can’t control what Nedd does, and he doesn’t control what I do.

    •  Uh oh, Hunter (5+ / 0-)

      It looks like you are now an "anti-American extremist"

      This is nothing but a campaign by anti-American extremists to cast a shadow on a increasingly successful grassroots effort to expose the most radical and dangerous organization in America — the ACLU.

      and we are the "Kosanostra and Crew".

      The cry of racism/anti-Semitism is the last refuge of a Leftist scoundrel on the verge of losing an argument. The Kosanostra and Crew are very familiar with losing (especially political campaigns), so it’s not surprising that they and their minions resort to the tired, tried-and-untrue refrain when they get that all-too-familiar losing feeling in the heat of the battle of ideas.

    •  See update. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      joanneleon, greenearth
      Apparently, "Jay" can't decide if he's affiliated with the .org site or not. But I'll leave the link to the .com site in, because he's said very repeatedly in the past that he is.
    •  Screw you Jay, too (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      You may have not have posted anything but you're just as disgusting. The "dangerous agenda of the ACLU"????? Standing up for the rights of Americans --- ALL Amercians!

      My god, you're a sick bastard. Jesus... people like you make me ashamed of being a Christian (well, Catholic, but you probably hate them too).

      Sometimes I just don't get how you people ever look in the mirror. What kind of hateful things happened to you to make you such a sick fuck?

      AAAhhh... I have to stop now. I'm so angry about this....

    •  This sounds like Matt Hale (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Hunter, joanneleon

      of Peoria, Ill. infamy. Member of his hate group murdered Jews, Black,  and other minorities on a shooting spree before offing himself. Hale claimed he disaffiliated himself with Hale's group (Church of the Creator) to distance himself from the implied order on the hit. Didn't convince the jury.

      These 2 websites are probably working in tandem yet calling themselves separate so as not to implicate one in the other's dirty deeds. Standard operating procedure won't fool law enforcement, if, God forbids, it ever comes to that.

  •  Is it Kristallnacht yet? (5+ / 0-)

    Seriously. This is why I tell anyone I know who happens to be gay to please join their local Pink Pistols chapter and get some training. So they don't end up like another Matthew Shephard...that if some of these animals come for them, they can defend themselves with necessary lethal force...the only thing such violent, pig-eyed ignorant thugs would understand.

    It's only going to get worse.

    "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross" - Sinclair Lewis

    by Loboguara on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 05:48:19 PM PDT

    •  what is the Pink Pistols? (0+ / 0-)

      i've not heard of this group

      Reality has a well-known liberal bias.

      by m00nchild on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 06:14:07 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  What are they? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        They encourage responsible personal firearm ownership, carry and training for gays, lesbians, transgendered, etc, and really, I think, formed after the Matthew Shepherd thing. With the recognition that yes, there are vicious, hateful people out there now who will use violence against or kill a person just for being gay, and that nothing will stop them but use of force in self defense.

        "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross" - Sinclair Lewis

        by Loboguara on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 06:23:07 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  very cool (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          mojo workin, Loboguara

          this is how the first-line of resistance to tyranny can start ... just the notion of organized, committed deterrence to the violence of others.

          i've never ever wanted to own or use a firearm in my whole life but i know that if someone came after my partner or my loved ones within and without the gay community with the intent to deprive them of their life as nazis would i'd fight back with every ounce of my being--even if it meant the end of my being.

          and it's so troubling to me that even the possibility of having to defend one's basic freedom as a patriot would be required 200+ years after our revolution.

          Reality has a well-known liberal bias.

          by m00nchild on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 06:42:59 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  It's truly frightening that in today's (3+ / 0-)

    time and in this country, we would have frightfully un-christian like behaviour toward a Jewish family.  And a school board that holds an opening prayer, and has members who could utter such blantatly intolerant things, as you paraphrased, is truly disgusting.  I would like to see and hear local ministers comment publicly regarding such behaviour by their flocks. Truly, they has to be a small group of bigoted cretins, and not the  feelings of the entire school district. I pray to God it is not the opposite!
    I can't imagine living in fear because of my race or religion. I just can't imagine this could happen here in the 21st century.

    The most useless are those who never change through the years. James M. Barrie

    by jets ya on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 05:48:31 PM PDT

  •  The hatred of these people is incomprehensible (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bustacap, Dunbar, greenearth
  •  ack! (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    it is NOT A good idea to harrass him....why are we stooping to his level?!

    They're not just a number, Tony Snow.

    by terrypinder on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 05:55:49 PM PDT

    •  The comment was deleted. (6+ / 0-)

      No phone numbers or addresses here, please.

      •  We have to remember (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        word is bond, greenearth

        That in the transparency of our open and very public comment threads we reveal our tactics (not a bad thing) and create an evidence trail that can easily be spun against us the wrong way.

        Comment strategically.  We all are standard bearers of who we seek our countrymen to become.

        Reality has a well-known liberal bias.

        by m00nchild on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 06:17:15 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I hear you, and I agree... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          but I can't stop thinking about the spectacle of an ass like this squealing about his personal data being posted after he did exactly the same thing.

          I know -- it won't be him, but some other wingnut, who will pick up on it and say, "See?  We told you they're blogofascists!"  Fuckers.  They really do operate like a team of schoolyard bullies.

          Hopefully someday Nedd Kareiva will realize that his wingnut allies wouldn't care even if he or his family were harmed, as long as the reich benefits from it.

      •  Hunter, there are a few bits missing here (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        word is bond, greenearth

        The most significant is the fact, mentioned on my recommended diary,  that the "Stop The ACLU Coalition" has been a major mover on the Net in tarring the NYT and WaPo with charges of "treason"

        Another is the specific tactical response I suggested, which was considerably more fully articulated on diary as well.

        Additionally, I actually went to considerable length to  promote this story - as a dKos diary - yesterday as well.

        Meanwhile, I've also suggested an action plan - a strategy in fact - that goes far beyond merely emailing the director of "Stop The ACLU Coalition" : I do not think that will accomplish much. Peeling away his supporting bloggers, however, will.

        Thus, The Shaming Project

        Now, I'm confident that these omissions were honest oversights - and, indeed, I neglected to mention the blogger, Ed Brayton who writes Dispatches from the Culture Wars and moved the story, it seems, from Jews On First to Bartholomew ( so, my apologies to Ed Brayton ! ). But the story would have much more political effect were those missing aspects included.

        Best, BW

        •  Honestly, (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Buckeye Hamburger

          I am not sure a shaming effect against those bloggers will have any impact. Most on that list are both very small bloggers, and very, very far-far-right: people that the so-called "mainstream" of the conservative movement already tries to ignore in public -- but quietly helps along at every opportunity.

          You can't shame these people. They get off on it.

          The story is taking off, but I'm not sure you'll find a consensus on how to best take action. My own personal belief is that exposure to a wider audience -- continuing to report on these various instances of harassment and threats time after time after time -- will act as disinfectant. But it will be a slow process, and the more light these loathsome people are exposed to, the more "persecuted" they will feel, and the more extremist they will become.

          •  Well, wider exposure is a given - sure. (0+ / 0-)

            That is why I posted two Daily Kos diaries on two consecutive days : to raise a flag on this story.

            Now, as far as I've looked into the population of the 200 bloggers in the "Blogburst" group, they are in fact far from ideologically homogenous - as one might expect. These are not borg or orcs. I know you know that, but let me emphasize that there are many useful distinctions to be made here, and to miss differentiation among one's foes can be to miss opportunities as well.

            In the end, my point is simple : all humans respond to shaming. Other than with true sociopaths - and those are rare - I have yet to see the human being who will not respond to shaming.

            Regardless of whether people among the "Stop The ACLU Coalition" allies respond to emails or not, if the attempt is honestly made then the non-reaction of said bloggers can be noted publicly.

            That does not threaten them, rather it challenges them and if they do not like public note of their non-response - regarding whether or not they endorse egregious acts of thuggery and antisemitism by their associates and allies - well then they can make a public statement :

            Yea ? or Nay ?

            There are - of course - other valid methods. Mine is just one. But most, I feel, will involve shaming at some level.

            As to the importance of the blogs in the list of those 200 "blogburst" bloggers, some of the blogs I saw on that list were receiving several thousand visitors a day - according to the industrial standard site meters they were using ( the same as the Daily Kos uses ). So in aggregate, the harnessed site traffic of those 200 blogs could well be over 100,000 visits a day and potentially much more. Even beyond such metrics - also - we all know what havoc even a single determined blogger can cause. Consider up to 200 determined bloggers.

            Regardless of the balance of power on the internet though, in the wider picture we are outgunned - and creative approaches are in order. On that, you can choose to believe me or not. I will not justify it.

            The usual conceptual models - fixes via exposure by the mainstream media - will no longer work or, even if they might, we no longer have the luxury of assuming they will. The bulk of media coverage cuts against us.

            Other approaches are needed, different paths...

            And, I am not at all concerned with consensus as to approach. Consensus politics has its place, and that is not here. Leadership is needed. Now, not later.

            In the end, the Daily Kos is not a consensus driven venue : it is an LLC.... as is my own website, Talk To Action.

            An LLC is not a consensus model. It is, at best, a dictatorship - and there are at present compelling reasons for such organizational models. Flexibility and risk mitigation to mention two.

            Meanwhile, let me say this : I work with some on the front lines of this conflict, and with some who have watched it for decades.  I did not expect to be in that position or to acquire such a deep perspective in such a comparatively short time, but somehow I have wound up here in this place - and armed with approaches that I never would have imagined a year ago. There are tactical approaches that derive from deep perspective that comparatively few are aware of. Is that idea so strange ?

            Moving along :

            So, the story takes off - well, what then ?

            Unless emergent concern is shaped and directed for strategic ends nothing much will come of this.

            Your volley.


            •  One amendment : (0+ / 0-)

              I meant to add there "benign dictorship" - I think that characterizes the Daily Kos, much more so even than a few sites I won't mention here that also lay claim to that management style.

              Talk To Action is also - I hope - a benign dictatorship.

              Unfortunate, but necessary for the time being.

  •  I just left this message in his contact box (5+ / 0-)

    Deep down in your heart, you know what a creep you are.  Maybe you momma didn't love you; maybe your father was a drunk.  Maybe this is all your own idea.  But God knows what's in your heart, and He will turn his face from you for the cruelty and spitefulness you display.  He is doubly angry that you would use His name and the name of His son to hide the bitter blackness of your heart.  Go back and re-read Matthew 6:5-6, which says

    "When you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, who love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on street corners so that others may see them. Amen, I say to you, they have received their reward.

    But when you pray, go to your inner room, close the door, and pray to your Father in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will repay you."

    It is difficult to win an argument when your opponent is unencumbered with a knowledge of the facts. Dr. Nordstrom's First Rule of Debate

    by DemInTampa on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 06:01:24 PM PDT

  •  WTF? (4+ / 0-)

    This country has gone completely mad.  
    Where were these people educated?  In the same schools that I was?  I'm 48 and don't remember any of this crap in school.
    Up until the last 25 years, these people would have been laughed at after being told that they were wrong.  Now, this behavior is accepatble?
    Leave people alone.  If they're not breaking the law, what does it matter their faith?  Their ethnicity?  WTF cares?  The "BASE" is obvioulsy "freebasing!"
    Shut up!  Raise your kids to NOT be like you, and maybe this country can survive.
    I have severe doubts at this time.
    We are only a few "Heil Bush's" away.

    •  Amnesia? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      There was mandatory [Protestant Christian] prayer in public schools in the USA in the 50s and 60s, along with corporal punishment. The idea that taking prayer out of schools is a major element in the Decline of Western Civilization has been pushed by that bastion of Conservative thought, the National Review, for, within my memory, the last thirty years. The war on Christmas stuff coming from Regnery and Rupert Murdoch, as Hunter has proven in the past, is almost word for word from Henry Ford's 1920s series of self-published bigotry, "The International Jew."

      You just weren't paying attention, so you weren't outraged...

      "Don't be a janitor on the Death Star!" - Grey Lady Bast (change @ for AT to email)

      by bellatrys on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 07:35:38 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  'Christians' (4+ / 0-)

    They go to church every Sunday to celebrate their "religion", just like those Christ-like Southerners in the lynching postcards (some of them possibly my relatives; we have a lot to answer for.)

    Many wonder why us progresive Christians seem to operate underground and don't speak out more forcefully against the theological facists. One reason is that we don't want to get painted with the same brush. We sure as hell don't share the same faith OR worship the same savior.

  •  Is it just me? (4+ / 0-)

    Doesn't it strike anybody else that deliberately antagonising an organization that's chock-a-block with lawyers is not too bright?

  •  Fascism or Fundamentalism? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    Sounds more like the latter to me...

    "corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow" Abraham Lincoln

    by Thirsty on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 06:26:22 PM PDT

  •  WTF (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bustacap, reflectionsv37, greenearth

    I could care less what anyone's religion is, so long as they do not try to cram it down my throat. Live and let live.  I am orderline Atheist/agnostic, and yet I can still participate in Pastor Dan's "Brothers and Sisters," because I agree/appreciate the underlying humanitaraian theme.  Much of what parades as "religion" is just plain old common sense and good will to man/woman. Much of religion is about kindness and caring for others.  I sure can't disagree with that.  

    "The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country..." - Thomas Paine

    by elveta on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 06:32:49 PM PDT

  •  Chris Hedges 'American Fascism' (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bustacap, greenearth

    Thanks, Hunter and Troutfishing. This is such an important topic. Wake UP, America!!

    Be sure to read Chris Hedges' new book on The Christian Right and the Rise of American Fascism.

    His essay/lecture on the subject happens to be online:

    Dr. James Luther Adams, my ethics professor at Harvard Divinity School , told us that when we were his age, he was then close to 80, we would all be fighting the "Christian fascists."

    The warning, given to me 25 years ago, came at the moment Pat Robertson and other radio and televangelists began speaking about a new political religion that would direct its efforts at taking control of all institutions, including mainstream denominations and the government. Its stated goal was to use the United States to create a global, Christian empire. It was hard, at the time, to take such fantastic rhetoric seriously, especially given the buffoonish quality of those who expounded it. But Adams warned us against the blindness caused by intellectual snobbery. The Nazis, he said, were not going to return with swastikas and brown shirts. Their ideological inheritors had found a mask for fascism in the pages of the Bible.

    He was not a man to use the word fascist lightly. He was in Germany in 1935 and 1936 and worked with the underground anti-Nazi church, known as The Confessing Church, led by Dietrich Bonhoeffer......

    He saw in the Christian Right, long before we did, disturbing similarities with the German Christian Church and the Nazi Party, similarities that he said would, in the event of prolonged social instability or a national crisis, see American fascists, under the guise of religion, rise to dismantle the open society. He despaired of liberals, who he said, as in Nazi Germany, mouthed silly platitudes about dialogue and inclusiveness that made them ineffectual and impotent. Liberals, he said, did not understand the power and allure of evil nor the cold reality of how the world worked.

  •  Hunter, this is one sick diary. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bustacap, Dunbar, greenearth

    Even if I go throw up, I'll still want upchuck.

    I wish I didn't read this tonight.  I feeling sick.

    And, they think their putrid souls have a place in Heaven.

    I don't know that they will.  But, I can hope that this hate will be dispensed .</p?

  •  Hmmm...I wonder if you can still buy his cell (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    phone records.

  •  Moments like these... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    America was founded on the freedom of religion.  The founding fathers were concerned there will be religious sect wars (verbally and physically) across America unless there is a doctrinated law of 'freedom of religion'.  I cant believe, in this age and our country, there is still tormenting religious prosecution.

    "A little matter will move a party, but it must be something great that moves a nation." -Thomas Paine, Rights of Man, 1792

    by optimusprime on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 06:40:12 PM PDT

    •  Irony... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      optimusprime, greenearth

      I read once that many of the folks who fled religious persecution to come here, instantly persecuted others upon their arrival - for example it was a crime in Pennsylvania not to go to church & study the Bible on Sunday.

      Maybe it's human nature to play the "my God is better than your God" games... heck, go look at Israel itself.  The one place the Jews are in the majority, and the Orthodox cram stupid laws down everyone's throats - you can't freaking sell bread during Passover - even to a non-Jew.  WTF is that?  And the Orthodox schools get better funding than the others.  And a Reform marriage ceremony isn't valid - only an Orthodox ceremony.  This is Jew-on-Jew folks.  Can you call it anti-Semitism if it's Jew vs. Jew?  I don't know, but I only bring it up because it seems that religious intolerance/persecution is every where.  Except maybe Antarctica.  


      Democrats *do* have a plan for Social Security - it's called Social Security. -- Ed Schultz
      -3.13 -6.05

      by FredFred on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 07:10:19 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Gawrsh? Ya mean anti Semitism is alive and well? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bustacap, greenearth

    Oh my GOODNESS?


    Oh my gosh! I'm so shocked!


    Hey, they tried anti Semitism in the Teaneck NJ council races, why are you so fucking suprised?

    Some people just are so full of hate they'll do whatever it takes to justify it. So put this one in the "no duh" file and realize all the chatter about "Framing" and "memes" is bullshit when you realize that really Bad People have POWER in this country and need to be confronted with more than a fucking blog.

  •  Take us back to yesteryear... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    when bigotry reigned supreme and people were ostrisized for being different.  or having a different opinion.  Take us back to the good old days of book banning and burning.  To when it was cool to be narrow minded klan followers.  

    If this is the utopia the neo-cons and extremist right wants, you know, narrow mindedness and ignorance, they can shove it!!!

    Vote progressive!

  •  Hunter, that's the wrong link (0+ / 0-)

    You posted the wrong link... it is

    I respect all beliefs... and I am willing to consider anyone's opinion.

    by Krexent on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 06:57:17 PM PDT

  •  Email 'Stop the ACLU' ? - Yes, I suggested that (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    greenearth, zigeunerweisen

    "Let Mr. Kareiva and Stop the ACLU know -- politely, please -- how we feel about violent threats against families and children, and his suggestion that a family in fear for their lives was "an effect" to be "pleased" about."

    Hunter has provided a short version. Here is the full version of the idea, from my recommended diary :

    ACTION ALERT : Stop The UCLU has assembled a crew of 200 bloggers to support its initiatives. Here is a link to a list of those 200 blogs

    HERE'S MY PROPOSAL : Simple Shaming.

    EMAIL the members on that list one by one and ask them if they think Nedd Kareiva and Stop the ACLU should be pleased by the outcome in Indian River. Be very neutral: let them speak for themselves. If they respond, then email them to ask if you can publish their response or if they'd like to take a public position on the matter. If they won't you can still justifiable characterize that as a refusal to comment. Do, there would be three groups - "supports", "doesn't support", and "refuses to comment".

    Then, just list the blog you've contacted - and the response or not - on this diary. Later on, those can be collated and published in an organized form.

    If the blog in question allows comments, ask directly on the blog. I you get one, reply and include a link to one of the blogs pieces I've mentioned that cover this story.

    The point is to get each oe of the 200 bloggers aligned under Stop The ACLU to take a position or at least refuse to comment.

    This is a simple shaming project but - as we've seen in the case of the recent incident involving the speaker of the Indiana House, Brian Bosma, who was moved by the Internet and also the goodness of his heart to make an apology to Jewish groups in Indiana [ kudos to dhonig of dKos for the legendary cartoon ] - shaming really, really does work. So if you are so moved, shame away !

    UPDATE : I've started a list of "Stop The ACLU" supporters I've contacted, towards the bottom of this thread.

    Here is the focal point I set up for the effort, which I already started in motion.

    •  Or, a campaign to peel away their supporters (0+ / 0-)

      But, I don't think emailing the director of "Stop The ACLU Coalition" will do much.

      He will likely just delete those emails and move right along to the next task.

    •  Shaming? Are you fuckin' serious? (0+ / 0-)

      These assholes are standing up in a public meeting and yelling "Take off your yarmulke" at a 12 year old, but now we're going to "shame" them out of this behavior?

      Scroll through their troglodyte websites, see the shit that makes Ann Coulter sound like Roslynn Carter, and we're gonna shame them?

      When we're done with that shit, let's "shame" the HIV virus out of existence. Oh, and we'll shame resistant tuberculosis bacillus, too.

      As my great great grandma says, when she's not hustling pool or riding her dirt bike,

      "Fill one hand with shame, and fill the other one with a fuckin' grenade with its pin pulled, and see which stump quits twitching first."

      Please try not to be offended, Troutfishing. I like your stuff, we agree on way more than we don't.
      I only sound like this for the brief moments when I fantasize that the gunfire and bloody slo-mo fountains through the telescopic sights and the great overhand full body baseball bat swinging inside my head are real.

      I don't know what the fucking hell it is with this story that caught me and my human decency off-guard. Just the idea of that young boy, standing up to try to speak at a public forum, like a quintessential Norman Rockwell scene, except that the fucking dialogue is by Josef Goebbels.

      I'm done. The more I try to think and write about this the worse I will be.

      Fellow Kossacks, please drag me off the field of battle to the medic's tent tonight. I'll be back, but tonight, this story makes me feel less than human.

      I'm the plowman in the valley - with my face full of mud

      by labradog on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 09:08:17 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Can a Dose of Their Own Medicine be Delivered? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    citizen k, greenearth

    Is there not some way that the personal information on the individuals behind this campaign of intimidation could be gathered and posted on line? I am sure that they, who have no problem with disseminating the personal information on others, would not object to the public at large knowing where they live, their telephone numbers, perhaps their places of employment?

    •  No. (3+ / 0-)

      There are other ways to shame these individuals. Merely exposing them in the press is among the better ways, though the press is slow to react.

      •  Yes, I recommended shaming as well (0+ / 0-)

        To begin with, early this AM I had other things scheduled for my day : conference calls, crucial pieces of writing to finish....

        But, I had tried to get this story on the recommended list yesterday, and failed ( ~11 AM EST : a challenging time to post ). Richard Bartholomew tipped me off to his new findings, and Jesus' General, and I added my own contributions. Then, I reposted them here on the Daily Kos.

        I thought I'd give it one more go even though I had a rather full plate today.

        The story seemed to me to be extremely important - and others seem to think so as well.

        Well, my second efort succeeded - but some key points of my recommended diary seem to have gotten lost in the translation to the daily Kos front page

        One aspect of this story I mentioned in my recommended diary and that I'd like to highlight : the activities of the "Blogburst" group and "Stop the ACLU" in working to smear the NYT and WaPo with treason.....

        I've suggested an articulated "shaming campaign" on my recommended diary, and elsewhere - the the very top of the piece - that could go a long way towards mitigating this line of attack.

        In fact, I even started emailing members of the "blog burst" group to kick off my project. I think that approach could produce the desired results.

    •  Bad idea (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      greenearth, katrinasolo

      As listed in edit three above, don't go to their asinine depths.

      •  What Encourages Bullies? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        citizen k

        We have watched for some time now as leaders of the Democratic party attempt to take the "high ground" in refusing to respond in kind to the Right's thug tactics. The result? Rove, Coulter, Hannity, just keep bringing it on, growing more hateful and divisive by the day. At some point, we need to realize that there really are those who would impose their fascistic views on the rest of us by any means. Here is an example where not so subtle threats were used against a family who TRIED to handle things peaceable through the courts. The perpetrators of this intimidation are, by nature, bullies, and, hence, cowards. The only way to deal with a bully is with what he understands.

    •  That is an unwise approach (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      And, this is not a level playing field.

      No, I would not recommend going that route.

      Those are the very tactics we want to call out and hold up as shameful.

      We can do better than that.

  •  Hans Blix? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    What in the world do they have against him?

    •  You're joking, right? (0+ / 0-)

      Hans Blix had the audacity to contradict BushCo on Iraq's WMD, pointing out before the invasion that they had none. Worse yet, it turned out Blix was right! Ask Joe Wilson what the BushCo people (and I would certainly count StoptheACLU as BushCo people) do to you if you call them, correctly, liars.

      •  Yes but... (0+ / 0-)

        I realize that but what do they ostensibly say they have against him?  How would they frame that in a way that seemed rational.  Hmm, I think I answered my own question...

        •  Hmmm, good question (0+ / 0-)

          I searched both the .com and the .org sites and only found a single, fairly oblique reference to Hans Blix. Maybe Hunter will read this and post a link for us.

          American Fascism,'s only natural that the hard core supporters of a fascist administration would be fascists themselves. What's shocking is how open they are about it. But this is the harvest of what was was sown in the Reagan 80s, when bigotry and selfishness were gentrified, that we are reaping now. The bigots have grown so bold that they want you to believe that the USA was founded on bigotry.

  •  Does anyone know (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    what is the 'extensive Christian proselytizing' the school district was engaging in?

    I'm just curious.

  •  Please don't start riots online (0+ / 0-)

    Words that incite violence are not protected.  We should get the local and federal authorities more involved in this shit.  It's about civil rights.  BlogRiots are new, and the injured parties may make a case about it.  I wish they would.  Before something worse happens.  Don't the cops read DKos?  They wouldn't stand for this threatening crap happening in any other print medium.

  •  How about a letter writing campaign? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Troutfishing, xcellentcadaver
    I'm all for free speech, but when it turns into persecution of Americans due to their religious beliefs, I don't know if I can tolerate that.

    I looked up the website info for and I found out who their webhost is. which is a webhost that directly ponts to - so I did a little searching. There is no TOS on the website, yet they list all their awards and state that they are so proud of their high ratings. I wonder, would they be proud of the type of activity their customer is involved in?

    I found an email address: and I think it would be a great idea if E-Pluribus Media (and other journalists) email them and find out how proud they are that their customer is involving their company in this terroristic activity.

    This is just a suggestion, of course.

    It seems to me that the Domain Server could be considered an accessory if they allow this customer to be involved in using his website to persecute people by publishing their names and rallying the God Squad to harrass them.

    On a side note, I found a link to a page where they answer questions about subpoenas for customer information. I've never seen this type of page on another server (maybe I live an isolated life, but I've shopped for my share of domain servers, and I've never come across this type of thing before). Could it be that expects their customers to be involved in terroristic and/or criminal activities?

    It might be a good idea if you decide to do this to send them a link to the story. Make sure you mention that he published the name/address/phone number of the victims in this story.

    Just a thought, do what you will with it.

    •  Good thinking...... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      There are some useful directions your ideas could be taken in. If you want to know what I mean by that, well... I'm in the book.

      Also, I got a chance to meet four ePm people last weekend, at the "Media Giraffe" conference at U/Mas, Amherst. I'd worked closely with one before, last Spring, but not with the others. They're a good bunch.

      What you seem to be decribing here is another type of "shaming". I suggested one avenue for that in my recommended diary, but you've hit on another excellent, complimentary route.

      •  Great diary, sorry I missed it :( (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Some awesome ideas there. It would be great if we could find out the hosting domains for all of those sites you listed, provided the operators of those sites seem elated with the direction is taking, of course.

        I don't know if you noticed, but I stated above, I'm from Delaware and I have Jewish family members there so this story is very personal to me. I'll do what I can to help.

        Keep up the good work.

        •  Others will fade away..... (0+ / 0-)

          But you have some good ideas.

          This is far from casual for me as well.

          "Keep up the good work" is not statement I take, based on personal experience, as  a sign of engagement. I hope I am wrong.

          There are few who really want to look at this head on. It's very disturbing, yes.

          •  Keep up the good work means... (0+ / 0-)
            I'm impressed with what you have done.

            nothing more, nothing less.

            I'm very engaged in this endeavor because (unfortunately), I have a personal stake in this situation. While I do rally to calls for help at times (and I'll admit, I'm not doing enough), nothing moves me like when I have a personal stake in this matter.

            I'm moving at the moment, and I don't have a lot of time, but if you want to give me an assignment, I'll find time in between my moving activity (but after I wake up, for the next several hours at least, I have to get some boxes packed).

            In a couple of weeks, I won't be online for at least a few months, I'm giving up my internet capability for a while. I'm moving from an apartment into an RV (it's a LOT cheaper, and we own it) where I have no room for my computer. When I get a laptop, I'll spring back to life again.

            So if I sound like I'm not committed, it's not because I'm not committed, it's because my circumstances tell me I can't commit myself as much as I could if I had a stable income that afforded me the ability to own a house.

            •  I know of some part time net jobs depending on (0+ / 0-)
              your skills.
              •  New Job, New living arrangements... (0+ / 0-)
                I just got promoted to a District Manager (I work in Newspaper Circulation) and I'm not able to take on a new job at the moment, but when I'm moved and have my laptop, I'll talk to you about doing some work. I'm not doing it so much for the money as that I want to be able to contribute to the cause.

                It's not that my job pays crap, it doesn't, but where I live, the average home is about half a million dollars. A house cannot be gotten here for less than 300,000 (and that's for the shacks). Rents are high here (my apartment complex just increased my rent by about 20% which is why I'm moving into an RV).

                I love my job, and the benefits are great. If I were to take on anything else, it would be in addition to what I'm doing now.

                One good thing is that my work hours start at 3 am and end about noon, so I'll have hours in the afternoons where I'll be able to do contribute my skills. Thanks for the offer though, when I'm internet ready again, I'll let you know.

  •  I'd love to meet the man (0+ / 0-)
    in order to see whether he's plain ignorant or whether he's one of those unfortunate unloved easily irritable types.

    As for converting. . . . is any branch of Christianity OK?

    Maybe their next neighbors could be Egyptian Coptic Christians or Black African Christians?

    I'm half-tempted to go down there myself and try converting this guy to Ye Olde American Christianity. . . emphasis on plain living, no frills, and strict Sabbath observance.

    •  Is any branch okay? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      xcellentcadaver, zigeunerweisen
      In Revelations, supposedly Jesus sends a letter to the churches, each one has something that Jesus admonishes them for. No branch of Christianity is perfect, but inside each, there are people who truly do live the way Jesus taught them to live (the Beatitudes).

      Personally I'm not Christian, and I'd rather not get into the discussion here of what I think Christianity truly is (any religion that has a gazillion different sects with a gazillion different beliefs is not exactly working as a unified force to bring about "The Way", if you know what I mean), they all fight and make derogatory comments about the other (some deserved, some not).

      Jesus understood that no one group of his followers would be perfect, that's why he sent the letters to the churches. If these churches would only recognize amongst themselves which ones they are and do the work, we could all have perfect peace, or else, possibly, total annihilation.

      Why do I say possibly total annihilation? Well, one Jesus teaches to love one another, love your enemies, all that... the other talks about coming to bring "not peace, but a sword".

      I guess when a man talks out of both sides of his mouth, this is what you get, and on that note, I think I've said more than I should have.

      God (in the Old Testament - I'm not Jewish either) said that men should learn not to make war anymore. I think that should be the final word, personally. If that's God's ultimate goal, then maybe this thing about dividing families and slaughtering humans with a sword is completely wrong? Perhaps we should be learning how to make peace instead.

  •  Sinclair Lewis... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mojo workin, zigeunerweisen, Balam

    "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross."

  •  The older the country becomes the more backwards (0+ / 0-)

    the people go.  Can that group be sent on a year's "vacation" at Aushwitz or similar to see what it's like to be ostracized for their beliefs?  While they're there, subject them to some serious psycho therapy, because they seem to have bullying tendencies caused by low self-esteem.

  •  Constitution written on very fragile parchment (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    I had always thought that the Constitution was our bedrock and that there was nothing any idiot politician could do about it.  It was our birthright.

    I guess I thought wrong.

    The Constitution is a statement of shared values and shared protections, but it does require popular support or it can be shredded.  

    The fact that so many people are posting here give me hope that someone gives a damn.  I think it is beginning to dawn on more and more people that we really could become a dictatorship.

    If the First Amendment can be crushed to fight the war on terror (or to crush non-Christians) why can't Article II Section 1? (election of President) Could Bush cancel an election in the interest of national security?

    I don't really want to find out.  We must make the maximum effort to remove Republicans from Congress this year and then take it from there.

  •  What is it about the right.. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    That makes them think they can publish the personal information of those with whom they disagree? How is that an acceptable action? What makes the tactic more reprehensible is when children are involved!


  •  Wait Till They Lose an Election (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    If you think this is bad, wait till they start losing...

    It's gonna be UGLEEEEEEEEE.


    "It'll stick in his craw.  He'll never accept it." - Commander Montgomery Scott

    Dana Curtis Kincaid Ad Astra per Aspera!

    by angrytoyrobot on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 08:25:09 PM PDT

    •  I feel the same way!! (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      Right now this whole group of right wing whackos think they can do and say anything they like and it's okay because they are the "mainstream". When they lose their first election, (hoping that occurs in about 4 months), they are going to become unhinged. Yeah I know, but even worse than they are now. I really expect to see the violence escalate dramatically as we try to reverse whats happened in the past 6 years. These extremists have killed before and unfortunately I expect to see it again. These people really scare me! They are not normal human beings!

      Just when you thought it couldn't possibly get any worse...

      by reflectionsv37 on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 09:34:42 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  What is it about school boards (0+ / 0-)

    that seems to attract every nutcase with a political axe to grind? We had the people in Texas with textbook banning, the Kansas board with creationism, and now these lunatics trying to use the school as as the educational branch of the church, not to mention their hate tactics. These people are making decisions that affect the educational programs offered in their school district, and they are completely whacko. We need some sort of certification process for public officials to show that they are mentally competent enough to hold office. That kind of program could have saved us from Bush and Cheney too, as well as these lunatics in Delaware.

  •  Attorney Ethics and Liberal Survival (0+ / 0-)

    Under most attorney rules of professional conduct, it is impermissible to contact a represented opposing party AT ALL except to effect service of a new complaint or subpoena, and even then one generally serves it on counsel.  To quote Maryland's rule 4.2 (a) in pertinent part:

    ... a lawyer shall not communicate about the subject of the representation with a person who the lawyer knows is represented in the matter by another lawyer unless the lawyer has the consent of the other lawyer or is authorized by law or court order to do so.

    Contacting a represented party opponent is considered an outrageous breach which will, quite often, lead to a disciplinary filing against the offending lawyer.  Ethical attorneys are scrupulous on this point; law licenses are expensive and valuable to the owner.

    The reason for this is to keep unfair pressure from being inflicted on a litigant in a procedurally improper way.

    So publishing the private information of a represented plaintiff to help private brown shirts terrorize such litigants is, to an ethical attorney, obscene. They had lawyers with addresses and phone numbers; the families' addresses and home numbers were not relevant to the litigation, were not news.

    One should recall that much of what the early Nazis did was, in fact illegal, from the arson of the Reichstag building to the assassination of oppositions leaders - not only the left but the non-Nazi decent conservatives as well.

    While I do not know that we are headed in that direction, I know that this event makes me wish never to set foot in southern Delaware again, either alone or with my family.  It is apparently not my country anymore.  How the gay community stands it in Rehoboth Beach is beyond me.  

    Last year around the Fourth of July I blogged about my wish for a separation of the theocratic and liberal sectors of the country for the protection of the liberal ones.  This case and much other recent evidence leads me to think that the Constitution I swore as a Maryland attorney to uphold is in no way respected by a great many of my "countrymen" [sic], and that a separation of them from us is long overdue, for our protection from their proto-fascist impulses.

  •  Thank God for the 2nd Amendment (0+ / 0-)

    Shit like this makes me glad its legal to own a gun.  In the words of Woody Guthrie:

    I’m gonna tell you fascists
    You may be surprised
    The people in this world
    Are getting organized
    You’re bound to lose
    You fascists bound to lose

    Race hatred cannot stop us
    This one thing we know
    Your poll tax and Jim Crow
    And greed has got to go
    You’re bound to lose
    You fascists bound to lose.

    All of you fascists bound to lose:
    I said, all of you fascists bound to lose:
    Yes sir, all of you fascists bound to lose:
    You’re bound to lose! You fascists:
    Bound to lose!

    People of every color
    Marching side to side
    Marching ‘cross these fields
    Where a million fascists dies
    You’re bound to lose
    You fascists bound to lose!

    I’m going into this battle
    And take my union gun
    We’ll end this world of slavery
    Before this battle’s won
    You’re bound to lose
    You fascists bound to lose!

    "Power concedes nothing without a demand; it never has and it never will." - Frederick Douglass

    by goblue72 on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 10:20:19 PM PDT

  •  Their illegal logo (0+ / 0-)

    I followed a link to, and noticed right away their sickening violation of the flag respect law. IOKIYAR, I suppose. I thought about entering a comment but didn't want to be traceable by these thugs through my IP address. Anyone feel brave enough to point it out?

    U.S. code, Title 4, Chapter 1, Section 8.
    (g) The flag should never have placed upon it, nor on any part of it, nor attached to it any mark, insignia, letter, word, figure, design, picture, or drawing of any nature.

    Sheesh - I know this stuff and I'm not even a citizen.

  •  Christian Love (0+ / 0-)

    I've been writing about this case for the past couple of years. My most recent two posts on it:

  •  ACLU donations up. (0+ / 0-)

    Back when the ACLU litigated on behalf of the poor they were admired.  

    Things change.  In San Diego, the ACLU no longer responds to the poor, opting instead to defend the rights of those who can afford larger donations.  

    Currently gay rights, DINKs (double-income no kids)is the rule of the day.  Although most can afford counsel.

    Please don't confuse this post with an anti-gay sentiment as the opposite is true...because gays are in my family and people love who they love.

    I only wish the ACLU would return to litiganting on behalf of those unable to Hire lawyers.  Specifically, parents trounced in family court.  Please see

    •  Actually, the ACLU began to give Corporations (0+ / 0-)

      personhood. (a very sorry start to a great organization)

      The ACLU donations began increasing after 1) the Patriot Act was signed into laws  and 2) people were being rounded up and disappeared after 9/11.  Many patriotic Americans believe that it is unconstitutional.

      They have been very involved in all sorts of Constiutional issues.  It is their primary purpose to preserve the Constitution.

    •  Your point is well taken, but... (0+ / 0-)

      As someone who worked briefly at one of the ACLU's central offices, I can say first hand that its often difficult to balance attention to the ACLU's core mission (consitutional rights) with attention to substantive equality.

      That said, it's important to remeber that each state has its own semi-autonomous chapter that exercises significant discretion in setting its own litigation agenda.  So no one should be surprised if the DC ACLU tries to curb police brutality while California fights for gay rights and Louisiana is busy with race issues stemming from Katrina. Divide and conquer, so we hope.

  •  Jesus' General? (0+ / 0-)

    This is the first time I have ever seen those two words together. Jesus spoke of peace and forgiveness.  If he saw no need to appoint a general, how dare anyone else take on the job in his name?

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