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It seems that there is a cottage industry in the liberal blogosphere of questioning the patriotism and activism of today's youth.  You hear it all the time from baby boomers looking back wistfully at the 60's, wondering where the next generation of protesters and angry progressives went.

We've seen push backs against this meme in diaries like this and like this, basically admitting youth apathy, but saying that it's "really really hard" or that youth feel a "sense of hopelessness".

The trouble is that all of this is just pure bullshit.  And I'm going to prove it.

Exhibit A: The recent Bloomberg Poll linked to by Kos on the frontpage:

A Bloomberg/Los Angeles Times poll of Americans age 18 to 24 found Bush's approval rating was 20 percent, with 53 percent disapproving and 28 percent with no opinion.  That compares to a 40 percent approval rating among Americans of all ages in a separate Bloomberg/Times poll...

"Across a broad swatch of social issues, younger Americans see the administration as being out of line with what they believe." ...

"It's overly simplistic to say people hate Bush, people hate the war," Kirby said.  While "Republicans could do a better job" winning over young Americans, Kirby said, "Democrats aren't offering ideological vision for the future that's exciting to young people."

Democrats not offering a vision?  I've never heard anything like that before.  But it's important to note that Bush's approval among youth is HALF that of the general public.

Exhibit B: American Idol votes.  It is old hat by now that more Americans voted for the winner of American Idol than for President:

RONALD Reagan set a record when he received 54.5 million votes to claim the United States presidency in 1984. In 2004, George Bush broke it with nearly 62 million under his belt.

But in a new indicator of just how seriously America takes its elections - or, perhaps, how seriously it takes the post of president - a grey-haired soul singer from Alabama has eclipsed both by scooping an unprecedented 63.4 million votes to claim a far loftier title: the new American Idol.

Now, most detractors of this statistic point to the fact that those under 18 can vote on Idol, while they cannot vote for the election.  But how many young people, at least in the 18-24 bracket, are actually voting on Idol?

According to the LA Times:

Myth: More young adults cast ballots for "American Idol" than vote in political elections.

Truth: Only 21% of poll respondents ages 18 to 24 said they had voted for an "American Idol" contestant. But 53% said they had voted for a candidate for public office.
(Vince Bucci / Getty Images

That's right, people.  53% of 18-24 year olds said that they had voted for a candidate for public office; 21% for American Idol.  Now, the respondents could have been lying, but it does not surprise me, as a market researcher, than the demographic of youth who would respond to such a poll would have voted in a presidential election.

I wonder who is doing all the American Idol voting?  Perhaps it's the same people with 20 years' experience in marketing departments who are peddling this crap in the first place...
------------------------------

But why aren't they protesting in the streets, you ask, if they are so engaged, and so upset with Bush?

I'll tell you why.  For same reason they aren't going to the movies: in the overpriced and over-commodified society in which we live, they simply cannot afford to.

From the LA Times again, this time about movies:

Myth: Box-office receipts have suffered in recent years because the movies are bad and young people don't like bad movies.

Truth: The main reason young people give for not liking the theater experience is that tickets and concessions cost too much. Bad movies were ranked below moviegoers who talk during the feature and too many advertisements.
(Ken Hively / LAT)

And the rest of life is, well, slightly more expensive than your average $14 movie ticket.  Anyone who's been paying any attention knows that life is getting extremely expensive, especially for young people.

Nowhere is this case made more forcefully clear than in Tamara Draut's excellent book Strapped: Why America's 20- and 30-Somethings Can't Get Ahead.  From the Publisher's Weekly:

It's hard to believe: "Today's college grads are making less than the college grads of thirty years ago." In fact, men aged 25 to 34 with bachelor's degrees are making just $6,000 more than those with high school diplomas did in 1972. This is just one of the many shocking statistics uncovered by Draut, a think-tank adviser and media pundit, in this incisive and revealing look at why today's young adults find financial independence so difficult. With catchy terms such as "debt-for-diploma" and "paycheck paralysis," Draut shows why this age group's ability to accomplish the traditional adult markers of school, career and family is stagnating. Her presentation features the one-two punch of well-sourced data and a series of stories from a diverse group of interview subjects to prove her thesis that depressed wages, inflated educational costs, soaring credit card debt and skyrocketing health and child-care expenses present nearly insurmountable obstacles to young adults' success.

That's right, boomers.  Back in your day, you could go to college, trip out on acid, protest the war, get B and C averages, and still find a freaking job, without having to cover massive student loans and skyrocketing rents and mortgage costs.

For today's youth, a Master's Degree costing $120,000 has almost become a necessity for getting the 60-hour-a-week corporate job that will allow you to pay down that $500,000 mortgage in some crappy suburban sprawl-filled area of American Wal-Mart hell. And oh--you don't have a 3.5 GPA? Sorry, there are ten other candidates who DO ready to take your place.

-------------------------------------

But still, why not protest?

Well, perhaps you could start with the fact that everyone's lives are now an open book, and stuff you do in college reverberates to your life in the corporate world; to the fact that background checks are now instantaneous and automatic for any serious position.

But hey--nobody here is worried about that, right?  We're all brave progressives here!  In fact, let me just pull out the real names of some Kossacks here....oh, wait.  That's a bannable offense.

In fact, outside of some of the most famous bloggers here, my Real-Life (RL) identity is one of the few that you can easily find with a simple google search.  I don't hide it.

If you want to know why some of our progressive activists don't take too many risks, start by asking yourself why you use a clever username and don't put out any info that would identify you in real life.

It's about, you know, making a living.  Put yourself in the wrong situation, and you won't be able to pay off that college debt, or that rent or that mortgage.

-------------------------------------

Finally, there is the question of leadership.

Back in the 1960's, boomers had three presidents for leaders, each with incredible foibles, but each extraordinary in their own way: Nixon, Johnson and Kennedy.

Nixon opened up China and founded the EPA.

Johnson promoted the Great Society.

And Kennedy was, well, Kennedy.

Meanwhile, the best the boomer generation could come up with for presidential candidates to inspire America were...wait for it...John Kerry and George W. Bush.

Perhaps, instead of asking where the youth activism went, we should be asking where the leadership went.  Kossacks are proud to speak of the need for a Democratic Party that leads the people in progressive causes rather than putting their fingers to the popular wind; perhaps it's time for some real leadership from this great generation of 60's Activists that the youth hear about so often.

---------------------------

The truth is that there is no youth apathy problem.

We DESPISE Bush, and we turn out in elections like never before--in spite of the weapons of mass distraction peddled by our elders in this shallow consumer culture.

But we're doing exactly what YOU'RE ALL DOING RIGHT HERE: keeping our heads down and not rocking the boat too much so that we can afford to pay the freaking rent--because living expenses have risen versus wages by, oh, only a gazillion percent.  And just one small misstep can get us fired, or lose us clients.

Not that we've seen too many inspiring leaders to give us hope for the future, anyway: Ned Lamont, John Conyers and Russ Feingold aren't exactly household names.  George Bush, Dick Cheney, Hillary Clinton and John Kerry are, unfortunately.

Because if boomers want to know what's wrong with America today, they shouldn't look at the youth.  We're doing what we can.  They should look in the mirror.

[Cross-posted from My Left Wing]

Originally posted to thereisnospoon (David Atkins) on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 01:46 PM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

    •  This is so true. (47+ / 0-)

      This expresses my life to a "T".  I was barely able to go to the march on washington last year and I had to raise money from other people ($5 here and there) to be able for a friend of mine and I to do it. Originally, I hadn't even planned to go, but Hurricane Katrina knocked me out of a job and I suddenly had some free time on my hand.

      Best line of the diary, I think, was this:

      perhaps it's time for some real leadership from this great generation of 60's Activists that the youth hear about so often.

      Indeed.

      •  no, it's time for some humility.... (30+ / 0-)

        What the 60s generation really needs is some humility.  

        They had the leadership role and they blew it bigtime.  Now it's time for them to move over and let Generations X, Y, and Z take the initiative.

        •  Dude...every generation thinks the previous (78+ / 0-)

          generation blew it...if you can absorb this you will not alienate the boomers who worked hard to make big changes in this country and are still actively working for change. Anyone who does not learn from the knowledge AS WELL as the mistakes of their predecessors is doomed to repeat the same mistakes. And then your kids will think YOU blew it...

          The best way to change things now is with the engagement of all generations of people who want change. Blame is a waste of time. Age-ism is a waste of time.

          "Our sweat and our blood have fallen on this land to make other men rich." Cesar Estrada Chavez

          by bic momma on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 02:36:58 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  We are trying to tell you we (12+ / 0-)

            Want your LEADERSHIP, not your condemnation.

            We are the margin of Victory, but we won't work for just anyone, jaded as we are.

            Go to the http://yda.org website, and download "the gift"

            Then start calling us lazy

            Orange is the new Blue

            by SFJen on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 02:40:37 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  You don't listen to us... (17+ / 0-)

              ...when we offer you leadership.  I've been a teacher for 30 years.  I speak the truth.

              Teacher's Lounge opens each Saturday, sometime between 10am and 12 noon EST

              by rserven on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 02:47:07 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I cant speak to your experience (34+ / 0-)

                as a teacher,
                But in my experience as a youth political activist, we get pats on the head and empty platitudes.
                And on occasion surprise when we don't eat that shit up with a spoon.
                I've been hard pressed to see real leadership.
                Howard Dean has been a glaring and inspiring exemption

                Orange is the new Blue

                by SFJen on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 02:49:56 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  some of us really did try ... (0+ / 0-)
                  ... to gift America with Howard Dean ... others with Wes Clark ...

                  do we really need to dig to find the reason why these efforts failed? we already know why ... the problem is being sure we don't continue to fail ...

                  damn, just thinking about this makes a bullet between the eyes seem not too bad ... the only remaining problem: so many eyes, so few bullets ...

                  BushIsWeak.com ... somebody really ought to register this domain name ...

                  by wystler on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 02:58:59 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  There's another possibility (4+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    wystler, tovan, ama, scoff0165

                    Maybe people from that generation who were around to see the Kerrys and the Deans come up understand something about the way life goes that is unknowable when you are younger - that battles like the ones Kerry fought as a young longhair back from his REAL Swiftboating in Nam mark you and mark you down, motherfuckers.

                    To expect movie stars and the anointed is not how life goes. You want leadership -  then do what the Tiger nations do; respect your fucking elders a little. Your elders gifted you the internets, gifted you the candidates you talk about gifting the rest of America.

                    Stop competing in a competition that only Rove and Bush win. Strive for wisdom. That you can afford, if not a movie ticket.

                    Quit bitching about movie tickets. Who the fuck could ever afford a movie date. They couldn't when we were on the way up either. It was an occasion, not something you saw on Friends or Seinfeld.

                    Patience in conjunction with wanting it now. Wanting it now is the worst part of American disease.

                    You complain of the boomers not offering you what you want. What the fuck do you want? Complaining about who makes it in the American political arena is weakness, when people who have PROVED themselves are not good enough. Not good enough for the inexperienced. No one is asking you to roll over.

                    But you are being asked to surrender to the idea that you know it all. You don't. Period.

                    It is impossible to spend 30 years give or take in the Senate or anywhere else in public and get everybody to like your whole voting record or the way you spent every day. Jettison the truly disgracefuol, the Liebermans. Do not get drunk on power. It fucks EVERYONE up.

                    And if you think Ned Lamont will break that mold, you just haven't lived in Greenwich much, or known too many of the old money heirs. Or have you all? To call him a leader is a fiction so far of this ONE FUCKING BLOG. It is a fiction of your all wanting Kos to be powerful so that you may bask in that. How much do you know of Lamont that Kos hasn't told you?

                    Wake up. Division will damage.

                    At the rate this abuse of power is going, the repubs are shoo-ins maybe not this fall, but almost certainly in 08 THey are watching this dish crack. This fall will disappoint, too. And you in your excitement, by COMING TOO SOON the way kids will, will bear the burden for it. By bitching about movies.

                    There is a reason people who organize GOTV and every other voting effort call for unity.

                    But you know better.

                    Apart from all the other divisions you now want one of generation.

                    Children, listen now to the tales that are told and told at no cost to you, and in the morning tell us we were wrong.

                    Till then, and until all you do is complain, understand only this much: that maybe others who have been around longer see some shit coming down that you can't.

                    Dean, the great Dean, calls FOR UNITY.

                    You adore and worship.

                    You convulse at what it takes to provide unity.

                    This is the Greens in 2000 all over again.

                    It is sad.

                    Thank you Thereisnospoon for provoking all this.

                    "What did they expect?" -- Benito Mussolini, on marching 300,000 Brown Shirts on Rome.

                    by Gottlieb on Tue Aug 08, 2006 at 01:08:00 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Oy! (3+ / 0-)

                      For today's youth, a Master's Degree costing $120,000 has almost become a necessity for getting the 60-hour-a-week corporate job that will allow you to pay down that $500,000 mortgage in some crappy suburban sprawl-filled area of American Wal-Mart hell.

                      But they've got it so bad today!

                      Maybe someone should point out that in the 60s, the counterculture ideal was to live a very simple life and not consume much. That left you free to protest a lot more. Hmmm...

                      This is CLASS WAR, and the other side is winning.

                      by Mr X on Tue Aug 08, 2006 at 05:25:30 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  maybe someone should point out (3+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Dvalkure, NearlyNormal, Nulwee

                        That liberalism in the 60s was not just the counterculture, and that blue-collar families --SOLIDLY Democratic--could actually purchase homes without destroying themselves financially.  That they could expect their kids to have at least as good an education and opportunity as they did.  And that they voted overwhelmingly for Kennedy, for LBJ, and for the Democratic representatives who passed some of the most progressive legislation of all time.

                        What service-industry job can give you that these days?

                        And that the youth protesting had the greatest set of opportunities in history, not least because of our robust welfare state offering a safety net for those who didn't make it right away--something thoroughly not the case these days. Living simply was simply far less of a RISK.

                        Look, the vast majority of Americans make far less and have far fewer benefits than they would have had 40 years ago--and the media is turned against traditional protests anyway, and any time we try to turn out, ANSWER hijacks the thing and wrecks the ideological cohesion of the event.  Really, the risk is far greater, and the reward far less apparent, than back in the day.

                        •  it was different (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          NearlyNormal
                          way back then, there were progressive republicans ... many dems, both from the south and the big cities, worked hard to block progressive ideals ... chicago 68 was a bleeding city during the DemNatConvention ...

                          truly was different

                          (yob=53)

                          BushIsWeak.com ... somebody really ought to register this domain name ...

                          by wystler on Tue Aug 08, 2006 at 08:21:36 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                    •  As a Gen-X'er (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Nulwee

                      ..graduated HS in 1982, for a reference...I could always afford a movie ticket. Movie dates were commonplace.

                      When I was in HS, you could get into a movie for in the three buck range. If you were in HS working a fast-food or retail job, you were probably making close to minimum, which was 3.35 back then. Nowadays, even here in MA where we have a higher mininum (6.75) than the federal minimum, movie tickets are ten bucks on average. The math is obvious.

                      Another thing, at least around here (in NE MA) that happened was the death of drive-ins. There was a handy drive-in near me up until the early 90s. You could take your girl, and a buddy and his girl, and the whole car got in for five bucks. There isn't a drive-in anywhere near here anymore.

                      "This site is the suckiest suck that ever sucked a suck"--Thomas Kalinowski

                      by ChurchofBruce on Tue Aug 08, 2006 at 07:11:33 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

              •  and those are the kids (8+ / 0-)

                of the parents who aren't doing anything.  There are a lot more people in the US not doing something than doing something.  

                There are a lot of youth working hard on progressive issues.  There are just a lot more that aren't.  And frankly, for most of my friends, they don't realize how high the stakes are.  Eating next week is more important.  

                what should the iraq war memorial look like? how big should it be? - lipris

                by ThaliaR on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 02:52:11 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Perhaps instead of trying to lead them... (32+ / 0-)

                we need also to help them develop their own leadership.

                The 60s generation wasn't too interested in being led by oldsters.  They wanted to lead their own movement.    I think that is what's needed here.

                Jerome and Markos are right in Crashing the Gate:  Democrats and progressives need to build the leadership training infrastructure to cultivate and develop emerging leaders from the new generation.    The Authoritarian Right has been doing this for years (Blackwell's Leadership Institute, e.g.)  We need similar institutional capacity on our side.  

                We need to prepare them for the day when they will be the leaders.  Let them use their talents and skills and cultural knowledge to create a movement that is relevant to their generation.

                In many ways, I see a parallel to the so-called "helicopter parents" who hover over their kids, trying to run their lives instead of empowering them to successfully make their own decisions about their future.

              •  What leadership have you offered? n/t (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                draftchrisheinz, mariva

                "The arc of history is long, but it bends toward justice." --MLK

                by cheeselord on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 03:04:06 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Financial and organizational support... (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  SarahLee, boofdah

                  ...to build your own activist organizations.  We offer to send students off to garner leadership training in a wide range of political issues, yet see few step forward, and many of those who do have chosen to spend the time when they were supposed to be learning partying...only to return to us with few ideas and little in the way of actions.

                  Teacher's Lounge opens each Saturday, sometime between 10am and 12 noon EST

                  by rserven on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 03:10:40 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Cool. (4+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    ablington, boofdah, mariva, SFJen

                    I'm 17--how do I get involved?

                    "The arc of history is long, but it bends toward justice." --MLK

                    by cheeselord on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 03:16:35 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Go to college... (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      boofdah, SFJen

                      ...and find out what is available.  Ask. Ask. Ask.  If your college doesn't have a program, then demand.  Demand. Demand. Demand.

                      Most program slots go unfilled.

                      Teacher's Lounge opens each Saturday, sometime between 10am and 12 noon EST

                      by rserven on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 03:22:42 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  What if college is out of financial reach? (0+ / 0-)

                        Mariva's Guide: A magablog of fun, useful, interesting stuff.

                        by mariva on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 08:32:42 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  I can't believe that. (0+ / 0-)

                          There is always some college that is affordable.  And there are programs that will help you if you want to take advantage of them.  But if students don't treat getting an education like it's a job, they will be wasting everyone's time and money...and taking someone else's space.

                          Teacher's Lounge opens each Saturday, sometime between 10am and 12 noon EST

                          by rserven on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 08:49:47 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  that's just wrong (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            mariva, SFJen, NearlyNormal

                            There is NOT always some college that is affordable.  How can you possibly say such a thing?  Colleges, even state colleges or 2-year associate degrees, run into the thousands of dollars.  Textbooks are $50 or more each, regardless of tuition costs.  There are millions of people who can't afford $40 for a tank of gas, let alone thousands for college.

                            I find your comments on this thread ignorant and condescending.  No wonder "kids" don't want to work with you in all those so-called wonderful leadership positions you're offering them.  I suspect it has more to do with your attitude than with their desire to effect change.

                            "They know you called the Gay Teen Bondage Chatline for 15 minutes last Tuesday, but what you discussed is anyone's guess." - Jon Stewart

                            by CommiePinkoScum on Tue Aug 08, 2006 at 02:24:37 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I say such a thing because it is the truth. (0+ / 0-)

                            If you can't find economic assistance, you aren't looking very hard.  Yes, they may be in debt when they get done.  But that is the price of education.

                            Kids fdo work with me, idiot.  If you had actually read what I wrote, you would see words like "some" or "many".  That means I was not talking about "all".  

                            You have no idea what my attitude is or who I am or what I do.  But you choose to attack.  Fine.  I will not offer my support to any people in your generation ever again, outside of my teaching role.  As you would have it.

                            Now, what have you won?

                            Teacher's Lounge opens each Saturday, sometime between 10am and 12 noon EST

                            by rserven on Tue Aug 08, 2006 at 06:51:32 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  No there isn't (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            mariva, NearlyNormal

                            If you are a white male whose family has a decent economic background and you are pursuing a pretty  common major there is nothing for you to apply for that will supply any decent amount of money other then   possibly student loans from the government. Those tend to keep disappearing and pay only a small percent of the bill. I know because I have several friends in college whose families were considered too well off to provide them any grants etc. Their families are lower middle class.

                            College isn't cheap, go look online at tuition fees in your area and you will see.

                            "Babble, Babble, Bitch, Bitch, Rebel, Rebel,Party, Party, sex, sex, sex and don't forget the violence...." Marilyn Manson " www.cafepress.com/katsideas

                            by Chaoslillith on Tue Aug 08, 2006 at 08:21:03 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I've been a college teacher for 30 years... (0+ / 0-)

                            ...I know how much college costs.  Community colleges are available most places.  Essex County in Newark charges $81 per credit hour.  I think that means it'll be around $1000 for a full time schedule per semester.  And guess what?  They have a special program for white folks males, since white males don't normally choose to go there.

                            I grew up in an upper lower-class household.  My father was an electrician.  I paid my own way, schlepping food in a diner.  And I went to a community college.  You know what?  If you work hard at your education, there are scholarships available.  I earned extra money tutoring students in math.

                            My point is that I'm not being unrealistic.  If the desire for an education is really there, an education is there for the taking.

                            Teacher's Lounge opens each Saturday, sometime between 10am and 12 noon EST

                            by rserven on Tue Aug 08, 2006 at 09:00:23 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  One of the big failures of the left (0+ / 0-)

                            was not figuring a way to address discrimination that did not involve affirmative action.  It crippled the appeal of the left to my generation, including those of us who reluctantly supported it for a while, it is poison in the long run because it does not differentiate other than on the most superficial lines.

                            "I said, 'wait a minute, Chester, you know I'm a peaceful man.'" Robbie Robertson -8.13, -4.56

                            by NearlyNormal on Tue Aug 08, 2006 at 10:06:06 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  That's not true. (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            gkn, SFJen

                            Even if students can afford tuition, books, and supplies, many of them can't afford basic living expenses (like rent, utilities, food, transportation, etc.).

                            I believe you are very out of touch. Read Generation Debt and Strapped.

                            Mariva's Guide: A magablog of fun, useful, interesting stuff.

                            by mariva on Tue Aug 08, 2006 at 01:19:02 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You don't have to believe me... (0+ / 0-)

                            ...but I'm not the one out of touch.  Like I said, I've been a teacher for 30 years.  I've been at 4 different colleges as a teacher and attended 3 as a student.  I know what is available.  You may not believe that there are such programs, but that doesn't make the programs non-existent.

                            Teacher's Lounge opens each Saturday, sometime between 10am and 12 noon EST

                            by rserven on Tue Aug 08, 2006 at 01:22:42 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Illogical. (0+ / 0-)

                            So the only people you see are the ones who manage, one way or another, to afford to be in your classroom. I guess you don't see all the ones who can't afford it, financially or time-wise.

                            It's been a long time since you've been a student (when living expenses and tuition were reasonable, the economy was better, there were more social programs and support for non-rich people), but you haven't been keeping up with what's been happening to people across the country.

                            I'm going to stop arguing with you now. It's fruitless.

                            Mariva's Guide: A magablog of fun, useful, interesting stuff.

                            by mariva on Tue Aug 08, 2006 at 02:26:07 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Yes, we do... (0+ / 0-)

                            ...you are the one who is not getting it.  The school I am at has a specific mission to search for students just like you are talking about and finding a way to get them in college.  It they have the ambition and minimal qualifications, this college bends over backwards to get them through college, including as much housing as we have been able to locate, even if we have to lend it to the students ourselves.  We employ our students wherever we can on campus so that they can earn some spending money.  We provide all sorts of services, though I will admit that we're struggling with how to provide daycare, so that our students can be here...if they want to be here and eventually run out of excuses about why they can't go to college.

                            I've been on the admissions committee here.  I've heard all the stories.  If there is a will, we will find a way.

                            I seriously doubt that this school is the only school in the country with this attitude.

                            Time-wise?  Is that what this is really about?  About not having the time to go to school?  If that's the case, nobody can help you.

                            Teacher's Lounge opens each Saturday, sometime between 10am and 12 noon EST

                            by rserven on Tue Aug 08, 2006 at 02:57:49 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Who said this was about me? (0+ / 0-)

                            You sure make a lot of assumptions.

                            OK, enough of this already.

                            Mariva's Guide: A magablog of fun, useful, interesting stuff.

                            by mariva on Tue Aug 08, 2006 at 04:27:03 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You are out of touch (0+ / 0-)
                            I'm not a boomer, or a Gen Yer. But your comments are condenscending and out of touch.  Essex college? Puleeze.  You do want people to get a job right?  

                            I went to a SUNY which has a hell of a lot more credibility.  That was over $10 years ago and $25K of debt.  It costs a lot more now.

                          •  The question was not about *where*... (0+ / 0-)

                            ...someone went to college.  It was about going to college at all.  Anyplace one goes to college can provide an excellent education to students who want to work for one.

                            Paying for prestige is extra.

                            Teacher's Lounge opens each Saturday, sometime between 10am and 12 noon EST

                            by rserven on Thu Aug 17, 2006 at 09:09:44 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  And the point.... entirely missed (0+ / 0-)

                            TADA - Boomer narcissism at its finest.

                            1. I once worked as a freelancer for a top firm.  They didn't look at your resume unless you went to a certain school. Did you have to face that when you were coming of age?

                            2a) When my boomer father went to a non-prestigous school, (CUNY), he went for free.  Now, it is thousands of dollars without prestige.

                            2b) When he got out of school, he was guaranteed a job that had a decent starting salary, and career movement.  Did you have to face low start salaries with extremely limited mobility while saddled with college debt?  Your cohorts are pretty damn good at monopolizing all the middle-upper management jobs, and leaving crumbs for everyone else.  That may be OK for youngish Gen Y's (maybe) who are just starting out, but certainly not OK for Gen X's who are in their 30's and are trying to raise families.  I should not have to get a master's degree in order to get a decent middle class job.

                            You may have work as a teacher for 30 years, but that doesn't mean that you aren't ideologically stuck wearing colored glasses of your own making.

                          •  If you want to change the subject... (0+ / 0-)

                            ...to have a different discussion entirely, you can do so, but don't try to pass it off as being the same subject.  That's intellectually dishonest.

                            Teacher's Lounge opens each Saturday, sometime between 10am and 12 noon EST

                            by rserven on Fri Aug 18, 2006 at 08:27:58 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I commented to you (0+ / 0-)

                            Because I actually read about 600 comments in this thread, and I read most of your remarks.  I do not deem it as a change of subject.

                          •  I do, as I pointed out in a previous comment. (0+ / 0-)

                            Doesn't fairness to me matter to you?  Or is it all about what you decide it is about?

                            Teacher's Lounge opens each Saturday, sometime between 10am and 12 noon EST

                            by rserven on Fri Aug 18, 2006 at 08:39:10 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I don't think your comments (0+ / 0-)

                            have been fair. They have been biased.

                          •  And the point... entirely missed (0+ / 0-)

                            TADA - Boomer narcsism at it's finest.

                            1. I once worked as a freelancer for a top firm.  They didn't look at your resume unless you went to a certain school. Did you have to face that when you were coming of age?

                            2a) When my boomer father went to a non-prestigous school, (CUNY), he went for free.  Now, it is thousands of dollars without prestige.

                            2b) When he got out of school, he was guaranteed a job that had a decent starting salary, and career movement.  Did you have to face low start salaries with extremely limited mobility while saddled with college debt?  Your cohorts are pretty damn good at monopolizing all the middle-upper management jobs, and leaving crumbs for everyone else.  That may be OK for youngish Gen Y's (maybe) who are just starting out, but certainly not OK for Gen X's who are in their 30's and are trying to raise families.  I should not have to get a master's degree in order to get a decent middle class job.

                            You may have work as a teacher for 30 years, but that doesn't mean that you aren't ideologically stuck wearing colored glasses of your own making.

                          •  The point is not entirely missed... (0+ / 0-)

                            ...you have an agenda, which is to "catch me out" as being out of touch because of my age.  You don't know me, but seek to make that judgment based on interpretations of what I have said in this diary only.  

                            You are correct that I don't know anything about your reality.  But you know what?  Nobody knows about your reality but you.  Your reality is not intrinsic to people your age.  It is only your reality.  Since you don't want me to participate in your reality, I won't...and I will be all the more happy to let you struggle with it yourself.

                            Nobody can fix your circumstances but you, just like the rest of us are responsible for our own lives.  Hint:  The first step is usually to stop pointing fingers at other people.

                            Teacher's Lounge opens each Saturday, sometime between 10am and 12 noon EST

                            by rserven on Fri Aug 18, 2006 at 09:18:17 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                    •  where are you at? (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      mariva

                      I can get you in touch with a CYD regional director if you are in California...

                      Orange is the new Blue

                      by SFJen on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 03:44:20 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  OMG I'm retarded (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      tmo, theran, mariva

                      I already asked you that
                      Come to the SFYD meeting on Wednesday. You can't do the drinks thing aferward what with the 17 and all-sorry :/, but it is as good place as any to start. We also have very strong relationships with college clubs in the state and specifically the bay area. Hope to see you there!

                      Orange is the new Blue

                      by SFJen on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 03:55:10 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

              •  We don't want you to lead (6+ / 0-)

                We want you to help us become leaders.

                I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day

                by eugene on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 03:09:23 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Tell that to those who demand that we lead... (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  SarahLee

                  ...like SFJen.  There have been others.  I've been involved in advising student organizations for decades.  I never tell the students what to do but try to teach them how to decide that for themselves.  Willing students have been few.

                  Teacher's Lounge opens each Saturday, sometime between 10am and 12 noon EST

                  by rserven on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 03:14:30 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I'm NOT demanding (8+ / 0-)

                    athough some direction getting statred would have been appreciated.

                    And I'm not a student anymore.

                    I lead too.

                    What I want is the older generation to stop assuming that just because we are not doing things your way, or with you, that we are not doing anything.

                    And the attitude in you post is exactly what me (and I think eugene) were talking about.

                    Orange is the new Blue

                    by SFJen on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 03:41:04 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  What attitude? (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      tovan

                      I haven't told anybody what to do or how to do it.  I'd be more than pleased to see organizations I have helped advise take root and become something.

                      So what attitude are you ascribing to me?

                      Teacher's Lounge opens each Saturday, sometime between 10am and 12 noon EST

                      by rserven on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 03:46:01 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  the tone (7+ / 0-)

                        Is coming off, at least to me, as condecending and preachy.
                        If thats not how you meant it, cool.

                        Orange is the new Blue

                        by SFJen on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 03:58:29 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  You're not aware of it... (6+ / 0-)

                        and that's the problem - in fact the entire issue of this post and discussion in a nutshell.  There's lipservice to "trying to support" young people, but a lack of ability to understand us and actually give the support.  It's like when i screw up with my wife sometimes and start giving her advice when she is asking for validation - cultural differences sometimes create an inability to support her despite my best intentions.  We are inheriting your world, for good or for bad - have had to adjust to it, adapt to it, accept it - and as we attempt to change it we need your understanding and guidance.  In the end, the Boomers have a bit of an ego problem - always have - and until that goes away there won't be much room in the process for others.

                        •  You can assign me any attitude you wish... (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Irfo

                          ...but that doesn't make it my attitude.  I've been working with young people for 3 decades, totally focused on the needs of the young.  If I have not provided what you have needed, it is because I have provided what you have asked for.  

                          Teacher's Lounge opens each Saturday, sometime between 10am and 12 noon EST

                          by rserven on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 05:39:04 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                        •  Being on the tail end (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          SFJen, MarketTrustee

                          of the "babyboom," and having grown up (and grown older with adult children of my own) listening to the power boomers, I have to say that it is interesting to read your comments and those of theother younger people here.  What you are saying i think echoes what the youth leaders of an earlier generation were saying but the tone is so different.  Back in the 60s and 70s, the so-called younger genration said that the older genereation did not understand them, But there was much more vitriol.  Today the 20-somtheings are so much more respectful of their parents' generation (even asking for leadership tips).  They are a lot nicer and I think seem to feel more connected to the society.  n the 60s, there was a more viciousquality to the protesting that you don't see today (which is good).  As much as I am fascinated  by Abby Hoffman, he was very in-your-face (he was also older than many of the young people he was 'leading").  There was much more of a feeling of a civil war in this country in the 60s, so those young protesting were scared and feeling beseiged--I think there isn't such an edgyness today--maybe too many young people are on medications to make them feel better about things.  I don't know Do those mood drugs really work?  Is everybody taking happy pills?  Look what happened to Abby Hoffman once he started taking meds.

                          Governing a large country is like cooking a small fish. ~Lao Tzu

                          by jjellin on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 05:48:49 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                      •  but you are, kinda (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Cake or Death, SFJen

                        and I recognize your frustration. But I don't think that "we" - I'll use that loosly, b/c I may well be considered "young" around here, at 32, but we've got too similar of job titles to let that be the issue - can say "here's a great opportunity for you to go to!" Yippee - we found something that we want to do, and b/c we're past that point in our lives, and no longer fund-able or otherwise eligible, we want to find our carbon copy, 10 years or more later.

                        It's not about finding a great workshop and then being disappointed when the students don't respond, or don't respond as we want them to. It's about listening to what they want, and helping them figure out how to obtain it.

                        •  It's about listening to the students... (0+ / 0-)

                          ...who tell us what they want, providing them with the opportunity to pursue what they asked for, and then seeing them squander the opportunity.  Or discover that what they asked for was beyond their reach and deciding that somehow it was our fault for providing the opportunity.

                          Teacher's Lounge opens each Saturday, sometime between 10am and 12 noon EST

                          by rserven on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 07:15:06 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                        •  The more I read what you wrote... (0+ / 0-)

                          ...the more I understand that you have no idea what I was talking about.  Your image of what I have meant is foreign to me.  Such is life.

                          Teacher's Lounge opens each Saturday, sometime between 10am and 12 noon EST

                          by rserven on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 08:30:23 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                        •  Something popular now (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          NearlyNormal, darrkespur

                          with those consultant types is the 3 generations in the work place. here is just a brief synopsis,

                          Its a very interesting topic if you do a search.  The biggest friction is between the Boomers and the Xers.  

                          There is a lot of great stuff about Gen Y.  I think the irony is one expert suggests that Gen Y is more like the Greatest generation and reponds best to them.  Maybe that why they iirk Robyn so.  She seems to not be to fond of them either.

                          She points out that baby boomer bosses would themselves have grown up in a world with an authoritarian and hierarchical social style. Their parents and teachers would often have been through military service and brought the same "swift clip around the earhole" approach to discipline.

                          With no spell-checkers, let alone computers, they would have developed good written skills. At work they would expect to be promoted on time served and would have a natural respect for seniority.

                          Generation X was born to a quite different world. Ms Dinnell says they probably had the best teachers, who mixed discipline with intellectual adventure. They were the independent-minded generation, often latch-key kids with both parents at work.

                          In the workplace, Generation X expects a flatter company structure and to be promoted on merit. Equal opportunity is taken for granted and work-life balance is critical.

                          "People thought it was something that would soon fade once they started their careers, but wanting a work-life balance has remained a persistent trait," says Ms Dinnell.

                          Generation Y is then the PlayStation generation. Ms Dinnell says they are used to soft teachers and being encouraged to express their opinions. They have had a narrow focus on passing exams and polishing their self-presentation skills.

                          Where earlier generations had to hike down to the library to do some real research, Generation Y has been able to Google its way to the information for assignments. This has created a "three clicks" mentality. If they cannot get where they want with a few mouse clicks, they lose interest.

                          Used to immediate gratification, Generation Y comes to the workplace with unrealistic expectations.

                          Ms Dinnell says in her survey that even Generation X'ers were complaining that they had to work 10 years to earn a level of recognition and then snotty-nosed Generation Y'ers would walk in thinking they should be running the show the next week.

                          Yet Generation Y is also the closeted generation of cycle helmets, baby-seats and stranger danger. With Internet access from an early age, they manage to be simultaneously worldly and unworldly.

                          It all sounds bad, but Ms Dinnell says Generation Y'ers actually have many good qualities. Not unexpectedly, they are tech savvy and self-confident. But also they demand explanations, they like efficiency and they are innovative and entrepreneurial.

                          Baby boom employers just need to adapt their management style to turn perceived negatives into positives.

                          Ms Dinnell says a key need of Generation Y'ers is to have their voice heard. They do not necessarily have to win the argument, but they expect a collaborative approach to decisions. And bosses need to earn their respect rather than demand it as a right.

                          www.tasinifornewyork.org

                          by naufragus on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 10:41:09 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                •  Yeah, just like (11+ / 0-)
                  boomers, "these kids today" don't want to be led.  There's a massively fucked-up world before our eyes and who wants to be led by people who participated in making the mess.  For all the great stuff the sixties did, it still let what we're seeing now happen.  Bommers bought LOTS of SUVs, allowed the religious right to take over the poltical dialectic.  Boomers need to get over themselves.  They did SOME great things and they blew a lot of others.  Just like any other generation.  Wake up and smell the poopoo!  Y'all aren't that special anymore.
                  •  I'm 58... (7+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Irfo, SarahLee, cedubose, Dems2004, boofdah, ama, Stripe

                    ...and I am willing to bet that in my lifetime I have used less in the way of resources than you have used in your lifetime.

                    That is probably our legacy.  I hate watching it rot...and getting blamed by people like you.

                    Teacher's Lounge opens each Saturday, sometime between 10am and 12 noon EST

                    by rserven on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 03:26:10 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Amen (6+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Irfo, SarahLee, tovan, rserven, ama, NearlyNormal

                      I will be 55 this year. My husband was about to be drafted into the war in Vietman when he volunteered to serve 4 years in the Air Force. Never owned an SUV. Protested the Vietman War even though I was not eligible for the draft. I have worked for progressive candidates for nearly 40 years, and I have raised three very progressive sons. I even spent 6 years as a member of out local public school board--talk about a thankless job. Turn your anger against the real villains--Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, and Rice.

                      •  Y'know, (8+ / 0-)
                        I'm NOT saying y'all are the bad guys.  It's just that a great many of you act like your shit doesn't stink, because 35-40 years ago you rocked the house.  That was great, but when a lot of you communicate with younger people you tend to be preachy and condescending and it's more alienating than empowering.  The boomer generation has always been the most powerful economic force in america, there's more of you than any other age group and will be until you fade.  Maybe other generations don't have that demographic advantage.  Maybe some of them think you could have kept going a bit stronger after the sixties.  Sadly, it seems that a great many of you have been content to talk about how much you did then instead of getting into it with those who came after.  It's good to be proud of what happened then, but it's also realistic to be a bit ashamed of what's happened since.  It is shameful, isn't it?    
                        •  What exactly does 'getting into it'... (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          SarahLee, boofdah

                          ...with those who came after entail?  Forcing people to not be selfish?

                          Teacher's Lounge opens each Saturday, sometime between 10am and 12 noon EST

                          by rserven on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 05:58:30 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  what I mean is that (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            lorzie
                            the boomer dominated left failed to energize and include many in the following generations and even alienated a great many more.  My generation, punks if you need a handle, had nowhere near the cultural/economic muscle y'all did, but we fought and bled on the streets just like you did in your time,  We lost, a lot of the time because boomers didn't help us, they told us what they did as if time had absolved them of responsibility and preached sanctimoniously that we should be like them as they settled into yuppiedom and other lifestyle compromises.  Meanwhile the world pretty much went to hell, while most of the boomers kept celebrating their past and ignoring what was happening right in front of them.  As far as I can see we are all responsible for our world all the time, we can't say we paid our dues and it's someone else's turn, but that's what it seemed like boomers were telling us.  Not all of them of course, but taken as a whole that same generation has presided over a massive disaster in terms of environment, wealth distribution, erosion of rights, the drift into fascism.  It's like after the draft ended the boomers went home and watched TV.
                          •  Wow... (0+ / 0-)

                            ...alternate history.  Did all this happen while I was in grad school beoming a college professor?  Because I certainly didn't hear much out of you wehile I was being your (collective "you") teacher.

                            You seem to have this image of a boomer that is not me or any other boomer I know.  Maybe you could fill us in on this mythical beast?

                            Teacher's Lounge opens each Saturday, sometime between 10am and 12 noon EST

                            by rserven on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 07:18:55 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I think you're taking this too personally (5+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            2dot, gkn, SFJen, apocryphal rumor, lorzie
                            I don't know you, but I do know what's happened to the world since the boomers 'changed' it.  Maybe you didn't hear much out of us because you weren't really listening.  There aren't nearly as many of us as there were of you, we can't make anywhere near the amount of noise you all made.  A lot of post-boomers have expressed the feeling that y'all seemed to think cuz you protested and stopped Nam (GOOD JOB!!) that you were sort of perfect or something.  But in the last 30 years a whole lot of things have gotten worse.  Some much worse.  All I'm trying to do is express the perception (not uncommon among non-60's people) that 60's movement people seemed to think they'd reached the mountaintop and 'changed the world' and tended to pat themselves on the back for it while a lot of things deteriorated.  Some things are different now (particulalrly in regard to institutional racism and sexism), but we're still polluting the hell out of our planet, still serving the war-machine, still (actually much more so) dominated by elite capitalist oligarchies.  Maybe y'all didn't change the world so much as solved -temporarily- some problems.  What we see now has happened on your collective watch.  You can't blame this on your folks.  No generation in american history has had your education, your economic power.  And where are we now?  
                          •  You've assigned us emotions... (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            ama

                            ...assigned us motivations, grouped us all together, and blamed us for every evil under the sun.  You assigned us expectations and attacked us for not living up to your expectations.  You choose the ones of us who did good when you mention the 60s and the ones of us who did bad when you talk about anytime since.

                            None of us pats ourselves on the back, because the job is not done.  We're still striving for a better world.  We are wondering why you don't want us to continue to do so.  We are wondering why you can't stop the blaming and do something useful.

                            It has never been "our watch."  Not those of us who were longhaired hippie freaks.

                            Teacher's Lounge opens each Saturday, sometime between 10am and 12 noon EST

                            by rserven on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 08:44:32 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Okay, (0+ / 0-)

                            I don't agree with the boomer-bashing.  But you have also...

                            assigned us motivations, grouped us all together, and blamed us

                            for failing to live up to your political standards.

                            Politics is like driving. To go backward, put it in R. To go forward, put it in D.

                            by gkn on Tue Aug 08, 2006 at 05:42:53 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  We're a minority of our own generation... (0+ / 0-)

                            ...and always have been.  What would you have us do?  The beer-drinkers and holy-rollers have always outnumbered us.  Real life is not Revenge of the Nerds.

                            Teacher's Lounge opens each Saturday, sometime between 10am and 12 noon EST

                            by rserven on Tue Aug 08, 2006 at 05:54:22 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  What? (0+ / 0-)

                            Massive non-sequitur.

                            I've not accused your generation of being responsible for all the current ills of the world.  (the holy-rollers, perhaps.)

                            Politics is like driving. To go backward, put it in R. To go forward, put it in D.

                            by gkn on Tue Aug 08, 2006 at 05:56:37 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Okay...I misread up there... (0+ / 0-)

                            ...might have something to do with the constant crashing.  I read that as accusing us of not living up to our own standards.  Because I would never dream of holding you to my own standards.  I would hold you to your own standards, if I knew what they were.

                            Teacher's Lounge opens each Saturday, sometime between 10am and 12 noon EST

                            by rserven on Tue Aug 08, 2006 at 06:08:15 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  My own standards, (0+ / 0-)

                            if you knew what they were?  

                            This is insinuating what, exactly?

                            Politics is like driving. To go backward, put it in R. To go forward, put it in D.

                            by gkn on Tue Aug 08, 2006 at 06:09:42 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Only that I don't know what your standards are. (0+ / 0-)

                            Have you informed me what they are?  If not, how would I know?  To guess at what they might be would be disrespectful of me.  To assign you my standards no less so (I'm a transsexual lesbian, a taoist, a non-capitalist, a PFLAG parent, an artist, a poet, a mathematician, a performance artist and a college teacher...we assuredly do not think the same way).  How do I know how to interact with you until you teach me?

                            Teacher's Lounge opens each Saturday, sometime between 10am and 12 noon EST

                            by rserven on Tue Aug 08, 2006 at 06:18:50 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Understood. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            rserven

                            I'm wary about revealing too much personal information anywhere, so that's why I've not shared much.

                            In case you were wondering, though, I'm a heterosexual female MD/PhD student who loves to play music and paint.  Hopefully, one day I'll be a college teacher as well. :)

                            You sound like a very interesting person.  I hope some of your students, at least, have taken the time to get to know you.

                            Politics is like driving. To go backward, put it in R. To go forward, put it in D.

                            by gkn on Wed Aug 09, 2006 at 01:13:07 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I always get to know my students... (0+ / 0-)

                            ...and ask that they use my first name when addressing me.  I like informality.

                            Teacher's Lounge opens each Saturday, sometime between 10am and 12 noon EST

                            by rserven on Wed Aug 09, 2006 at 07:58:35 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  i'm listening (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            SFJen
                            and i agree that the world got really screwed up on 'our watch'. let me ask you this. y'know all those kids studying over @ patrick henry? just what if them and all those christian fundies become a whole lot more powerful (hard to imagine?), everything in our power didn't reverse the trend of diebold. global warming got worse, the web was no longer 'free', many of our scientific institutions got shut down, internment camps became the norm for people who stepped out of line,  all this and more happened over the next 20 years. now, your kid says to you, dude, why didn't you stop it. as you watch your country decay i front of you and it rips your heart out, what do you say?

                            maybe i didn't try hard enough? maybe  i got lost for a decade while i was screwing my brains out tripping around the world chasing after sid and snorting cocaine? hell, i don't friggin know. sorry. your turn.

                          •  I liked your post (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            gkn

                            but as soon as I read it, I thought, "Uh oh.  Boomers will come out of the woodwork, claiming "But I'M not like that!," and people will get their panties in a bunch.

                          •  Not you, rserven (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            rserven

                            Perhaps some of us in GenX and GenY see a misleading Boomer composite.  Some Boomers have been progressive since 1962.  Some Boomers have been conservative since 1962.  Some Boomers have moved rightward since 1962.  Fewer Boomers have moved leftward since 1962.

                            It's not fair for younger progressives to assume that the entire generation moved Right when it became convenient;  only a minority made that move.  

                            You did not hear much from or about us, probably since we were speaking politely instead of burning things down.  It probably helped that we found nonconfrontational ways of advocating for deficit reduction and increased employment, and readily built coalitions across generational lines.  To be cynical, nothing brings underemployment home to seniors like a 25-year-old who can't move out of the house.  

                    •  But who is buying those 40K+ SUVs? (4+ / 0-)

                      It's not the younger set that're struggling to pay the rent that're buying those showroom-new conspicuous-consumption 10mph behemoths. They can't afford to!

                      "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross" - Sinclair Lewis

                      by Loboguara on Tue Aug 08, 2006 at 12:18:47 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                  •  its like talking to my mom (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    SFJen

                    She is a good Christian (I am not even Christian) who is a virtuous women who doesn't want to overtly rock the boat or make a scene. She is one of the best human beings I know, but she is always saying that she wouldn't do it my way...and I always can't help but think....well I am glad that we are different, because under the Boomer's watch, the country squandered most of its advantages and narrowed the flow of money to the elite few...wow...what a record to live up to...of course you can't blame the valient work of so many, but clearly not the majority, of an entire(ly) massive group...but then again it is hardly a record of progress and plenty to emulate.

                    Now I am sure this will offend some, so keep in mind that I said the many Boomers worked so valiently to help change things, but if things had gone swimmingly we wouldn't be here (kos), would we?

                    Don't blame me....I voted for Kodos! Neo-Cons don't die....they just go to the private sector to regroup

                    by coheninjapan on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 05:58:11 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                •  That was well said. I have 'youth' (15+ / 0-)

                  in critical positions on our Congressional Campaign.  One about to turn 21 and one just turned 20.   These two guys are dependable, creative, and invaluable. I have a another college guy from outside of the district that blogs for us.  

                  We have numerous college aged volunteers waiting for the call this fall as we take it back to the streets as we did before the primary.

                  All of the "youth" on our staff and in our campaign are leaders.  If we win, I am taking as many as possible with me, because these are quality people.

                  We have great people of all ages actually.

                  I am proud of the generations coming up behind my boomer group.

                  Barry Welsh Indiana 6th District Democratic Congressional Candidate

                  It's simple Math PENCE=BUSH=MITCH=Bad for Indiana+Bad for America

                  by Barry Welsh on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 03:18:37 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Great Point (5+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    alizard, gkn, 4Freedom, Yamaneko2, NearlyNormal

                    There are a ton of young people out there working on campaigns.  I go to campaign events and the majority of campaign staffers these days look between 20-28.  However, for every 21 year old campaign worker there are 100 of his/her peers sitting at home watching television.  We have plenty of leaders coming up through the ranks, we just need them to inspire their peers.  Virginia peer-to-peer is a great example of what can be done.

                    •  Virgina Peer to Peer (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      SFJen, Yamaneko2

                      I will check that out.  Thank You!

                      Barry

                      It's simple Math PENCE=BUSH=MITCH=Bad for Indiana+Bad for America

                      by Barry Welsh on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 08:03:10 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  No Problem (5+ / 0-)

                        During the Virginia governor's race last year the Young Democrats hired people to go out and contact young voters.  The differences between what they did and what had been done previously......

                        1. The volunteers were all young, so they could relate more with potential young voters.
                        1. It wasn't door-to-door canvassing like usual.  Here they sent people out to bars, bus stops, all sorts of informal places to have casual conversations with these kids.

                        Worked great for them, might be a recipe for success in the future.  Another great piece on youth voting which advocates a similar method is a study by two Yale Professors, Gerber and Green.  Can be easily accessed on Google.

                        •  Sounds so obvious - but no one is doing that here (0+ / 0-)

                          I'll pass the word along to some State campaigns. Thanks for the details.

                          May you live in interesting times. Ancient Chinese curse

                          by 4Freedom on Tue Aug 08, 2006 at 05:59:11 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                        •  also- (0+ / 0-)

                          They were Partisan. They started (in the bars and clubs & such)talking about issues, and moved into that Dems were handling them better. In statewide campaigns, such as Virginia, they specifically talked about candidates: Gov., Lt. Gov and Atty Gen.
                          This was coordinated with realtime database mgmt (ie-we got info from peer to peer and It was used to call and/or send out lit w/in a week) and innovative marketing For example: around Halloween, Youth Vote Alliance hung up "trick or Vote" trick or treat bags at ID'ed yound dems' houses.
                          Reminder noitices and phone calls to targeted voters were made the week and day before the election.
                          If I remember correctly, the youth vote went up (depending on region) between 8-12%. They went for Dems.

                          WooHoo!

                          Orange is the new Blue

                          by SFJen on Tue Aug 08, 2006 at 03:04:02 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                •  I don't care who leads (4+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  eugene, boofdah, SFJen, Balam

                  I just wan't people to get involved and change to happen.

                  "The arc of history is long, but it bends toward justice." --MLK

                  by cheeselord on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 03:25:51 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  graduate (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  zannie

                  beyond leadership.

              •  not true. (6+ / 0-)

                I've been teaching for 10 years, and I've found that students are desperate for leadership. But they don't want to hear that it's because of what someone else did, or that it worked once, etc. They need to know how it fits now, how it's going to work for them. Same with the academic material. Harder than playing the sage on the stage imparting wisdom, but not impossible.

                •  The guide on the side isn't wanted either... (0+ / 0-)

                  ...so I'd hesitate about the "not true".  "Desperate for leadership" how?  Standing silently waiting for someone to spoonfeed them?  That's "desparate", but I'm not sure for what.

                  Sure, that's a generalization, but no moreso than the generalization to "all boomers".  Activism is part of many of our programs on campus.  The number of students who proclaim that they have no issues that interest them is astounding.

                  Teacher's Lounge opens each Saturday, sometime between 10am and 12 noon EST

                  by rserven on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 06:28:16 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  then you don't see the difference (4+ / 0-)

                    the issues aren't singular and obvious for these kids - they're multiple and insiduous. Hell, the adults they're watching can't even figure out how to define positions or interests, or what constitutes meaningful protest anymore.

                    Being a leader is about empowering them - moving them in the direction so that they can articulate their interests. Challenging them to find resources to describe and define it. And so forth.

                    I find it sad when people I regard as colleagues appear to have written off the generation they proclaim to be serving. To what end, then, if there's such disdain that you must characterize them as "desperate"?

                    If activism is a part of many of "our programs on campus" then right there's your problem. They shouldn't be - can't be - "our" programs. They have to be their's.

                    •  Of course it is about empowering them... (0+ / 0-)

                      ...but some motivation has to come from within.

                      I have not written off anyone here.  I report my observations.  I work with young people to try to change what I have observed.  Sometimes I am successful.  Sometimes not.

                      "Our programs on campus" means our majors and our college's mission.  The students are supposedly buying in to it when they choose to come here.  Should students be choosing the college's mission and the curriculum?  Maybe they should have some input, but too many of them just want it to be easier.

                      Teacher's Lounge opens each Saturday, sometime between 10am and 12 noon EST

                      by rserven on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 06:41:45 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  sure, some do (6+ / 0-)

                        and the last thing anyone wants is for me to start complaining about the students in my gen ed classes right now. They're summer start, conditional admits, have to come, have perfect attendance at programs and classes for 5 weeks, earn at least Cs in 3 classes, before they can be admitted as full time students in the fall.

                        And you know what? It's not that they don't want to be t/here. It's simply that they can't. They're not prepared. They've been taught to take tests, and they don't have the first idea how to think. Some barely can read. Many - the vast majority of the 50 or so I'm dealing with now - simply are not, and will never be, college material.

                        But they don't see another option. It's either college - or what? Where's the decent paying, family supporting job in the steel mill or the local factory? How does a kid who's been left behind in every non-standardized exam sense of the phrase even being to see the possibility of change from within in that situation - and especially when s/he's being written off as apathetic. Lazy.

                        Your observation is askew. They don't want want things to be easier. They just want things not to be impossible.

                        •  And we make it not impossible... (0+ / 0-)

                          ...for the willing.  Not much is possible for the unwilling.

                          Teacher's Lounge opens each Saturday, sometime between 10am and 12 noon EST

                          by rserven on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 07:21:45 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  I think the point (3+ / 0-)

                            was that the students described (i.e., probably not college material) are not being lazy/unwilling if they're not seeking out leadership opportunities.

                            First off, they probably wouldn't do so well in a leadership position.  Secondly, they're going to have a hard time even scraping by - thus, activism is not their primary concern.

                            And, with respect to the "unwilling" youth you mention - most of my peers (med/grad students) who are uninterested in politics simply think that the whole system is disgustingly corrupt and no change can be effected through it.  Furthermore, they spend 12 hrs/day in lab or basically all waking hours studying and working in clinics.  They don't have time to do anything.  Even those (many) students who work on activist causes (universal healthcare, abortion providers, etc.) only get a year to do it before they go spend 80+ hrs/wk in the hospital.

                            Look, I realize that a lot of 20-somethings are, in fact, just apathetic.  But, just as not everyone will be interested in science, not everyone will be interested in activism.  So, I'm sorry that you have few people seek out your leadership grants, but you've got to expect that only a small population of students will have the interest/time to go through such training.

                            And, even if someone is interested in activism, s/he certainly doesn't have to be in a leadership role.  Canvassing or volunteering at a party office works just as well.

                            A final note (I know I'm rambling, but it's late and I've been at work for 11 hours): I've actually never seen the point of protesting in the street (I don't know if you're advocating that).  The few times I have, what I've encountered is this: some peace signs/honks of agreement, some catcalls of disagreement/derision, and a lot of people who just drive on by and pay no attention - or who are irritated that traffic has slowed due to the protest.  I don't think we ever inspired any of those drivers to go do political research when they got home.

                            Politics is like driving. To go backward, put it in R. To go forward, put it in D.

                            by gkn on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 10:57:11 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Yes, you did ramble... (0+ / 0-)

                            ...and certainly misinterpreted what I have written.  Perhpas that is my fault for trying to keep this general.  My mention about lack of motivation was not directed solely towards activism, but the lack of motivation to be a student...the seeming inability among some young people to take education seriously as they use up the resources that could have been available to someone who wanted to be here.

                            In my mention of "leadership", I was providing an example.  That is by no means descriptive of my expectations of others.  The use of this example as a sampling of data has apparently passed by many people, who have chosen decided that I must be attacking today's youth.  Gotta be someone to attack, right?  Even if it might be those who actually provide you aid, comfort, and support.

                            Oh, well, now I've been told.  Your generation doesn't want that aid, comfort, and support.  Go figure.  I guess I can find other uses for my time.

                            Teacher's Lounge opens each Saturday, sometime between 10am and 12 noon EST

                            by rserven on Tue Aug 08, 2006 at 06:43:55 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You've mentioned education in general (0+ / 0-)

                            perhaps once or twice in your multitude of comments.  Furthermore, this diary was about...

                            a cottage industry in the liberal blogosphere of questioning the patriotism and activism of today's youth.

                            So, I apologize if I assumed that you were primarily referring to apathy in activism/leadership(particularly when you mentioned your leadership programs.)

                            One final point.  How can you possibly complain that you are being maligned by

                            many people, who have chosen decided that I must be attacking today's youth.

                            when, in the same comment, you state:

                            Your generation doesn't want that aid, comfort, and support.  Go figure.

                            However, you're probably going to insist that these statements, as well, were taken out of context.

                            I'm sorry this diary has pissed you off so much.  Many of the comments were, indeed, unfair.  But I, and apparently many other people, think that you are retaliating equally unfairly.

                            Politics is like driving. To go backward, put it in R. To go forward, put it in D.

                            by gkn on Tue Aug 08, 2006 at 06:04:52 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  That second quote is the way I chose... (0+ / 0-)

                            ...to summarize what I was told by the young people in this diary.  The "Go figure" is a phrase that can be translated into "Who knew?"

                            Equally unfairly?  What does that even mean?  My purpose for taking part in the diary was only because of the bashing that was in the original diary, that was repeated and amplified in the comments, and in some cases personally directed.  You expected that this would be a free bitchfest about people without those people choosing to respond?  Even if I wasn't a boomer I'd be here trying to shout that crap down.  That's not who progressives and liberals are.

                            I chose instead to engage you...to speak directly to all of you who chose to respond.  That's also part of who I am.  I could give a shit about what any of you think about me, but I'm still going to care about you and the future of this world.  In particular, about the future of DKos.  We have a community here.  Good people.  Diverse people.  They all should get an even shot.  Including you.  And including us.  

                            Teacher's Lounge opens each Saturday, sometime between 10am and 12 noon EST

                            by rserven on Tue Aug 08, 2006 at 06:45:37 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Equally unfairly (0+ / 0-)

                            I meant that the boomer-bashing was unfair, considering that it maligned an entire generation.  Your comments are, likewise, maligning/dismissing an entire generation.

                            Of course I didn't expect this to be a free bitchfest.    I thought many of the comments were far out of line.  But unless both generations agree to speak civilly, the community we have here will continue to argue.

                            Politics is like driving. To go backward, put it in R. To go forward, put it in D.

                            by gkn on Wed Aug 09, 2006 at 01:08:56 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I didn't 'dismiss' anyone... (0+ / 0-)

                            ...and don't believe I was "maligning an entire generation".  I spoke some truths I hold about experiences I have had.  I addressed some concerns.  I voiced displeasure.

                            Maligning?  Cut the bull.

                            Teacher's Lounge opens each Saturday, sometime between 10am and 12 noon EST

                            by rserven on Wed Aug 09, 2006 at 07:54:50 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                    •  You hit the nail on the head (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      draftchrisheinz

                      with this:

                      I find it sad when people I regard as colleagues appear to have written off the generation they proclaim to be serving. To what end, then, if there's such disdain that you must characterize them as "desperate"?

                      Glad to see a geezer (joke, joke :P) understands!

                      Orange is the new Blue

                      by SFJen on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 06:43:40 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  One more thing... (0+ / 0-)

                      ..."desparate" was a word you introduced, so it's not fair for you to chastize me for using it.

                      Teacher's Lounge opens each Saturday, sometime between 10am and 12 noon EST

                      by rserven on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 08:37:54 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  wasnt my post (0+ / 0-)

                        I was quoting someone else.

                        What made you decide to follow me around this thread?
                        I'm not the only one who made impassioned comments- or even the most impassioned comment.
                        WTF?

                        Orange is the new Blue

                        by SFJen on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 08:43:43 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  I was replying to draftchrisheinz (0+ / 0-)

                          Teacher's Lounge opens each Saturday, sometime between 10am and 12 noon EST

                          by rserven on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 09:09:05 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                        •  I've not been 'following you around'... (0+ / 0-)

                          ...but merely participating in the comment threads.  I don't even look at who posted what most of the time, but rather respond to the post.  Sometimes I notice the poster when I preview and change what I write a bit to reflect that.

                          There is nothing wrong with spirited discussion, SFJen (my daughter's name is Jen, by the way, and she lives in Santa Cruz).  What should happen is that both sides should learn something.  I've provided some observations, based on my experience.  You can ignore what I have said and learn nothing, or try to integrate it into your knowledge base for a future occasion.  That's how we learn.  At least, that's how I learn.

                          Teacher's Lounge opens each Saturday, sometime between 10am and 12 noon EST

                          by rserven on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 09:18:09 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  'ignore what I've said and learn nothing' (4+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            theran, SFJen, CommiePinkoScum, jjellin

                            is also likely to be perceived as condescending - which has been a major complaint by the younger posters on this thread.

                            Politics is like driving. To go backward, put it in R. To go forward, put it in D.

                            by gkn on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 10:58:36 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Taking words out of context... (0+ / 0-)

                            ...is disgusting.  The context is that I am also not ignoring what other people are saying, so that I do learn something.

                            Teacher's Lounge opens each Saturday, sometime between 10am and 12 noon EST

                            by rserven on Tue Aug 08, 2006 at 06:53:14 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Taking words out of context? (0+ / 0-)

                            Okay, so you're not ignoring what other people are saying.  My point, however, is that accusing everyone else (at least the 20-something population) of ignoring what you've said (basically, that you can't find anyone interested in leadership at your institution) and learning nothing is exactly the attitude that the aforementioned population is likely to find condescending.

                            I don't think that is in any way taking this:

                            You can ignore what I have said and learn nothing, or try to integrate it into your knowledge base for a future occasion.

                            out of context.

                            Oh, and thanks for the 'disgusting.'  That's also a great way to connect with people.

                            Politics is like driving. To go backward, put it in R. To go forward, put it in D.

                            by gkn on Tue Aug 08, 2006 at 05:13:07 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  That's not what I said... (0+ / 0-)

                            you can't find anyone interested in leadership at your institution

                            I said that we provide the opportunities and that all too often the opportunities are underused or misused.  I said nothing about all, though it seems to serve people's purpose to read it that way.

                            When people speak to you and tell you that they want to say something that is true from their experience, why is that condescension?  You are free to disbelieve it if you wish, but it doesn't make my experience go away.  When someone is willing to offer you observations drawn on experience, I'd think you'd find it useful.  Or at least interesting.  Instead, everyone here has been doing their best to prove my point.  You don't know how to listen.

                            As far as anything else is concerned, consider this:  you asked to be treated like adults.  Adults tell each other the truth.  We call a spade a spade.  We call disgusting behavior "disgusting".  If you would rather I just pat you on the head, I won't do it.  That would be truly condescending.

                            Teacher's Lounge opens each Saturday, sometime between 10am and 12 noon EST

                            by rserven on Tue Aug 08, 2006 at 05:41:34 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Oh come on. (0+ / 0-)

                            Okay, MOST people weren't interested.  I'm terribly sorry that I didn't say "most."  However, you certainly seem to be extrapolating that apathy to "all" -- as in, an entire generation.

                            I don't disbelieve that you've had those experiences.  Show me where exactly I said that, please.  The observations ARE useful; however, I've been saying that (a) they way you're presenting them here isn't helping you out (yes, I know the anti-boomer comments are also way out of line), and (b) your experiences aren't necessarily representative of the larger population.  Take a look around this site, for instance.  Apathetic we are not.

                            Actually, my impression about adulthood was that adults don't call each other names for no reason, baselessly accuse people of lying, and insinuate that anyone who presents a slightly opposing viewpoint is asking to be given "a pat on the head."

                            I'm sorry that your work with college students appears to have disillusioned you so much.  But you're taking it out on everyone in this diary, which is unfair.

                            Politics is like driving. To go backward, put it in R. To go forward, put it in D.

                            by gkn on Tue Aug 08, 2006 at 05:55:08 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Exactly not... (0+ / 0-)

                            ...everyone else extrapolated what I said.  I said what I said, nothing more and nothing less.

                            How many times am I supposed to be a fool?  Someone makes a comment saying that you want our help, our leadership, or whatever, and it's just a confidence game to entice boomers into a bashing session, because somehow we don't treat you right or talk to you right while we are told how we destroyed the Golden City on the Hill that never existed on the one hand and are told we must suffer the sins of our parents on the other?

                            So...you don't want our help?  Great.  Stop asking for it.  We're going to continue trying to improve your world anyway, with or without your cooperation and in spite of your collective attitudes.  You know why?  Because that's the kind of people we are.

                            Teacher's Lounge opens each Saturday, sometime between 10am and 12 noon EST

                            by rserven on Tue Aug 08, 2006 at 06:04:41 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  When (0+ / 0-)

                            did I complain that your generation was not providing enough help.  Yes, others did (extrapolation?)  

                            With your last paragraph, are you trying to intimate that we are not the "kind of people" who want to improve our world?

                            Once again, I refer you to the activism on this site.  I believe that there are plenty of citizens of all ages who are dedicated to improving our world.

                            Because that's the kind of people we are.  All of us.

                            Politics is like driving. To go backward, put it in R. To go forward, put it in D.

                            by gkn on Tue Aug 08, 2006 at 06:08:40 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Many of my 'you's' are plural. (0+ / 0-)

                            My apologies, but I do not use third-person singular personal pronouns if at all possible, so often switch to the plural and/or second-person.  In this case "both".

                            People prove what kind of people they are by what they do.  The last sentence did not use the word "you" at all.

                            Teacher's Lounge opens each Saturday, sometime between 10am and 12 noon EST

                            by rserven on Tue Aug 08, 2006 at 06:12:49 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                      •  desperate for leadership vs. (0+ / 0-)

                        just plain desperate - this isn't even a debate worth having.

              •  did you ever try... (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                SFJen

                listening to them? Last I checked, the educational system you all designed wasn't really working that well.

                •  Are you a student at Bloomfield College... (0+ / 0-)

                  ...in New Jersey?

                  Are you an educator?  Or are you just repeating the right-wing trash because it sounds good to you?

                  Teacher's Lounge opens each Saturday, sometime between 10am and 12 noon EST

                  by rserven on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 07:24:25 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  What your students face (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    theran, foxfire burns, NearlyNormal

                    I checked out the full-time tuition at Bloomfield College, which was $16,400 for commuting students (90% of the total) and $8,100 for room and board.  

                    I'll leave aside the snark on how one can sleep two people to a room and feed them on a carb-rich diet and charge them $810/month for the privilege, since most of your students are commuting.  Unless you're lodging them in Manhattan...

                    Most of your students are commuters, which means that most of your students are already in social and familial webs outside the university.  A substantial portion of their day is spent commuting.  Many of them must work to support families;  almost all are subject to familial demands and pressures in ways that resident students are not.  

                    By attending a private liberal-arts college, your students are making two sacrifices.  To choose a liberal course of study is to prepare for an extremely tight job market or mandatory graduate school; first-generation students know quite well what life without a marketable degree costs.  By attending a private college, they are sacrificing a part of their future to debt hoping to get some benefit that a liberal education is perceived to provide -- please note that the ability to competently serve or enlighten others is a benefit.

                    Perhaps a first step would be asking your students why they are at Bloomfield College, instead of a public university.  Then ask them why they chose a liberal arts school.  Then relate the necessity of getting involved to their own answers to their questions, if appropriate.  

                    •  Your description of students... (0+ / 0-)

                      ...leaves out a major factor.  Nearly all students are minority students, from the inner-city areas of New Jersey.  They are the grandchildren of the Newark riots, in many cases.  The social and familial webs you describe are not the same as those for most students, but include catching a bus in the midst of gang violence, having family members, even their children, shot in their neighborhoods.

                      Our students choose this school rather than a public university, often times, because of the unlikelihood of them being accepted at a public university such as Montclair State, just up the road, because this school will take a chance on many of them that other schools are unlikely to take, as we search for the pearls amongst them.  Others choose Bloomfield because of the small classrooms (limit is 25...most classes have fewer students) and the chance to work more closely with committed faculty than they might elsewhere.

                      We do talk with our students.  Constantly.  This place doesn't function without interaction.

                      As an aside:  I've not been at Bloomfield for all of my 30 years of teaching.  Included were stops at 3 other (public) institutions, and my comments reflect my experience at those schools as well...and include in addition my 14 years of work for the rights of GLBT youth.

                      Teacher's Lounge opens each Saturday, sometime between 10am and 12 noon EST

                      by rserven on Tue Aug 08, 2006 at 06:32:56 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                •  'the educational system' was designed... (3+ / 0-)

                  over a hundred years ago, and it's been working really really reeeeeallly badly pretty much from the outset.  So blaming my generation (I'm at the tail end of the boom) for it is inaccurate; it was badly broken when we got it.

                  Each generation gets to discover this anew, unfortunately, because one of the problems with "fixing" an educational system is that it's almost impossible to fix it if you've had your worldview shaped by it (you can't reformat your hard drive if it contains the reformatting software!).

                  But that's another diary, which I may try and write someday.

                  Warren

              •  Best teachers (0+ / 0-)

                The best teachers I ever had were great listeners. They were able to see all us. So, as students, we couldn't hide and learned to define ourselves.

              •  Listen to you? (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                SFJen, apocryphal rumor

                I may only be 24 without you many more years of experience, but after 2004 my new rule was never get involved in politics in such a way that my direct superiors were more than 40.  Why?

                The older people are the less likely they were to listen to me, even when I was right.  I am not talking about simple matters of opinion.  It is understandable that people with different experiences will differ about those situations.  I am talking about matters of fact that I could bring evidence to my side.  In those cases we young adults still often get a condescending response.

                While I know that isn't the case everywhere and with everyone, it is the way my local party and campaigns operate.  Big ideas?  Hell no, not if they don't fit into the preconceived notions and the SOP of the past 30 years.  Thirty years of failure should change things, but it seems to have made them more intractable.

                To put my rant into fewer words:  Listen to you.  Fine.  However, you need to listen to us with an open mind.  Despite our age, sometimes, we know better than you.

                •  You wouldn't have to worry... (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  bonesy

                  ...because I would never be in charge of you, unless you were my student.  And I would listen to you if you were my student and would hope that you would listen to me, if only to honor your education.

                  People like me aren't in charge of anything, because we don't want to be.  We only want to help and provide whatever people would like from us.

                  Teacher's Lounge opens each Saturday, sometime between 10am and 12 noon EST

                  by rserven on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 08:08:11 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  Did I call you lazy? (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              boofdah, SFJen, Stripe

              Did I condemn you?

              I did not.

              "Our sweat and our blood have fallen on this land to make other men rich." Cesar Estrada Chavez

              by bic momma on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 02:52:17 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  not you specifically or me specifically (6+ / 0-)

                your generation to my generation.
                Quite a bit these last few days, with nothing to back it up.
                And its pissing me off

                Orange is the new Blue

                by SFJen on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 02:55:27 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Well, don't let it stop you... (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  javelina, boofdah, SFJen

                  don't let misdirected uninformed comments stop you from moving forward. And don't let it turn you off to "oldsters" (Jesus Christ!)who DO have their hearts and minds in place...

                  "Our sweat and our blood have fallen on this land to make other men rich." Cesar Estrada Chavez

                  by bic momma on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 03:02:24 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  And those who are young blame us... (6+ / 0-)

                  ...for being so numerous, which is our parents' doing.  And some blame us for everything under the sun.  All our fault.

                  Of course, we wouldn't have the opportunity to be here chatting about this unless somebody had put these tubes together.

                  Teacher's Lounge opens each Saturday, sometime between 10am and 12 noon EST

                  by rserven on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 03:06:48 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Sure... (7+ / 0-)

                    How dare we question the leadership of the generation that brought us the mighty tubes... lol.

                    Guess what?  When you came of age you allowed the NEOCONS to take power.  Now, you need us to get them out of power.

                    •  You're pointing your guns at the wrong people. (29+ / 0-)

                      I am 36 years old and am neither a "boomer" nor a member of today's "youth" generation. A decade or so ago, I was considered a Gen-Xer; but I hear little about this (other) "lost generation" these days. And I want to call a cease-fire here on this thread, because we have MUCH work to do.

                      One thing I've noticed about BOTH the Baby Boomer AND the teens and tweens on this thread, though, is that you all are firing your guns at the wrong people. If you post on DailyKOS, chances are high that you ARE engaged in the political process to some degree--which is MUCH, MUCH more than can be said about the average four-hour-per-night TV-watching, McDonald's-snarfing, indifferent Americans of all ages who use their asses to warm their couches and claim boredly when you ask them about their support for a local candidate:

                      I don't want to be involved in politics. Politics bore me. All politicians are crooks.

                      Believe me, I've canvassed and made phone calls extensively this election season, and have heard this from many of my neighbors and in my community time after nauseating time. As fellow Kossack Susan S reminded me last week, we need to remind this indifferent group of Americans--no matter what their generation or age group--in no uncertain terms, that perhaps they'd want to advocate for a different form of government.

                      Because a democracy is clearly not what they would want, if they choose not to participate in it.

                      Our time is sorely wasted if we insist on blaming this generation or that for the colossal failures of leadership that corrupt and greedy politicians of all ages--from 31-year-old Florida Congressman Adam Putnam to Strom Thurmond, 100 at the time of his death--have worked so hard to bring about.

                      As Michael Eric Dyson so eloquently alluded in a Biblical reference once, what's that staff in your hand? I suggest you silence your tongue and use it for the common good.

                        •  I think we need to address (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          theran
                          the boomer narcissism.  I think that's a lot of what's ended up deflating the left over the last 30+ years.  The defensiveness of many boomers on this thread, the refusals to accept responsibility for the current state of the world, the frequent obliviousness to what life is actually like for non-boomers, are all indications of an attitude that has driven a lot of younger people away from participating even when it would have been in their best interests.  I don't believe we (non-boomers) are trying to demonize you, we're only trying to express how frustrating you are to deal with on a cultural level, because y'all come off defensive, know-it-all, preachy, and humorless a lot of the time.  It's very similar to the problems you all had speaking to the so-called "greatest generation" -they basked in the glory of defeating Hitler and refused to question themselves after that.

                          You're activism was great as far as it went, but there hasn't been a lot of follow-through since then.  To us you seem whiny a lot of the time, like we should all be on our knees kissing your collective ass.  But you haven't done that great a job and you haven't been particularly open to changing your points of view.  The left stopped growing some time in the 70's.  Why?  Boomers were the custodians of the progressive tradition.  Why did it shrink when they were dominating the culture?

                          I'm not saying boomers are the source of all evil, just that they seem to be denying their responsibility for what's happened.

                    •  That was long after we came of age, my sweet... (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Irfo

                      ...aided by way too many of our offspring (not mine, thankfully).

                      Teacher's Lounge opens each Saturday, sometime between 10am and 12 noon EST

                      by rserven on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 03:56:16 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

          •  And every generation thinks that... (13+ / 0-)

            the generation that follows them is composed of a bunch of lazy bums.  

            The kids are alright.  

            The young'uns give Bush approval ratings in the 20s.  They turned out to vote in higher percentages in 2004.  They increasingly lean our way.  Let's find ways to help them use their talents to move the movement forward, instead of castigating them with the progressive version of "get a haircut, get a job."

            •  Well, I for one do NOT think this generation (12+ / 0-)

              is a bunch of lazy bums. I see passion and brains and creativity. Neither generation should be making generalizations about each other. It's pointless and polarizing. The last thing we need is to fight each other.

              "Our sweat and our blood have fallen on this land to make other men rich." Cesar Estrada Chavez

              by bic momma on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 02:58:20 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Agreed. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                javelina

                That's "lazy bums" figuratively, rather than literally.

                I'm closer to your generation than theirs, but I think they get a bum rap, for the most part.  I choose to be hopeful.

              •  Your last point is what's (10+ / 0-)

                freaking me out.

                We're all on the same fucking team here.

                I keep saying that over and over.  About once a month there's some diatribe against the boomers, and it pisses me off.  I'm a boomer, and I don't do and am not responsbible for any of the shit they're talking about.

                This is pure bigotry.  This is what bigotry means.

                We need to just stop it and get together.  Jeeze.

                •  Dude, I gotta laugh... (6+ / 0-)

                  I keep saying that over and over

                  "If I've said it once...I've said it a million times..."

                  We do sound paternalistic at times...

                  "Our sweat and our blood have fallen on this land to make other men rich." Cesar Estrada Chavez

                  by bic momma on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 03:34:33 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  since (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Marc in KS

                  I quoted sabbath in this diary that got all of two comments, I'll post this late and quote p floyd:

                  "we could be made into a monster, if we all pull togetheras a team."

                  once again, knowing the song helps, but is not necessary.

                  (As a complete side note, while obviously the quote is metaphorical, "monster" being slang for "hugely effective," it, sadly, applies far more literally to the far right pulling together.)

                •  Marc (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Marc in KS, ama, 4Freedom

                  I'm 37. I guess that makes me a gen-x-er. You are loved.
                  We DO, all of us, from teens to the very old (above 90)need to work together and try to understand eachother.
                  Boomers are great, my aunt frequently shakes her fists at the sky screaming "Bush",does voter registration, donates to Heifer International and is a professor,too,like you. She is one of my leaders.
                     Our world is so "micro", so "meta", so "muti", and we are always trying to find the reasons, at times focusing too much on specificites and not on the big pictures.
                      For instance, when reading through the comments to nospoon, I almost reacted with my own comment with the subject being: All the Pedagogues Say "Ho", referencing the Will Farrell skit on an old SNL in which he plays the Devil who helps bad musicans write famous songs.
                      Anyway,anyone who is alive right now and able should be riding their scootters or dragging themselves on their canes to DC to protest this outrage of an administration we have. The reasons why we don't are infinte and complex.

              •  I totally agree. (10+ / 0-)

                Especially on this site which allows people of all ages to meet on common ground.  For example, I was shocked to learn Georgia 10 was 22 years old.  From her writing I thought we were the same age because we shared the same political views.  And recently I read an impressive piece on Hillary Clinton and was astonished to learn the writer was an 18 year old college freshman. And there's JuliaAnn, who I suspect is very young, but who knows and who cares?  We share the same world view and rather twisted sense of humour.

                p.s. - I'm older than everybody.  

                "He that sees but does not bear witness, be accursed" Book of Jubilees

                by Lying eyes on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 03:37:58 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  no...they blew it...twice, three times (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            thereisnospoon

            First the 60's, when they got it right.

            Then the 70's, when they couldn't stop admiring themselves.

            Then the 80's, when they (not the Xers, nor the WWII veterans) took the reigns of power and made consumerism king.

            Then the 90's, when with their newfound wealth, they sought to create...more wealth.

            Along the way, they played senior roles in Persian Gulf I, then started Persian Gulf II, then cried because their reckless fiscal policies from the previous 2 decades started bankrupting Soc. Sec.

            Bullshit they didn't blow it. And bullshit on their humility.

          •  strictly speaking... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            SFJen

            Yes, agreed, age-ism sucks.  

            But there is a HUGE amount of frustration among my generation and younger, about being put down and held off and told in so many words that all we are needed for is sweeping up after the Boomer's great big decade-long party.  

            So yes, we will rant from time to time.  And that's perfectly healthy.  And then having ranted, we'll roll up our sleeves and get back to work.  

            And as I'm sure you know well, our ranting is hardly half as bad as the likes of Jerry "Kill your parents!" Rubin and the rest of those nutcases.  

        •  Maybe... (22+ / 0-)

          You should practice what you preach when it comes to humility, you young whippersnapper you.

          BTW, the youth were out in the streets in force supporting the rights of immigrants this spring. Millions of them, along with the boomers. High schoolers and college kids. It was beautiful to see. So, I for one am not concerned about their willingness to hit the streets. It's about organizing, and standing together.  

          Let's quit the whining and the bitching folks. We're all in the same boat together, regardless of our age.

          "I'll repeat what I said. I truly am not that concerned about him." Bush on Osama-3/13/02

          by chuco35 on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 02:37:05 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  The truth. (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Darksyde888, ama, khereva

            BTW, the youth were out in the streets in force supporting the rights of immigrants this spring. Millions of them, along with the boomers. High schoolers and college kids. It was beautiful to see.

            "Our sweat and our blood have fallen on this land to make other men rich." Cesar Estrada Chavez

            by bic momma on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 03:07:18 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  No idea what you would be facing (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Irfo, jjellin

          If we had really blown it bigtime.  Had we not had the 60's and 70s, and just gone on to extrapolate from the fifties, you'd really be learning the meaning of fucked.  Try a little dose of your own pie and we'll see how you do.

          "I said, 'wait a minute, Chester, you know I'm a peaceful man.'" Robbie Robertson -8.13, -4.56

          by NearlyNormal on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 03:22:10 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Gen X is the Prince Charles of generations (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          theran, NearlyNormal, jjellin

          and Queen Elizabeth are the boomers.  

          We will be in our 50's and 60's having the millennians bitching at us about being slackers and rejuviniles.

          We are rejuviles because we were never allowed to grow up!

          www.tasinifornewyork.org

          by naufragus on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 04:07:27 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  uh huh (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            alizard, jjellin

            We are rejuviles because we were never allowed to grow up!

            Hint: if you need someone's permission to grow up, you're a child.

            There's a scene in Orson Welles Tomorrow is Forever that nails this beautifully. The older son has been discussing enlisting in the army for WW2 with his parents at the dinner table. They are at an impasse. The son stands, says calmly, "Excuse me," and leaves. His little brother pipes up, "May I be excused too?" He's told to finish his dinner.

            Bring the Troops Home. Restore Constitutional Government. Take Back Your Nation.

            by khereva on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 04:27:39 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  This is funny (0+ / 0-)

            And I think maybe true.

            Governing a large country is like cooking a small fish. ~Lao Tzu

            by jjellin on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 05:58:17 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  The Boomers SUCK!! (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          theran

          Boomers are the most selfish, war-mongering, self-righteous, narcissistic, granola-eating millionaire, republican-voting (now) group of security-traders the world has ever known.

          I shouldn't have to explain that, once your onanism expires, I get sent the bill.

          Thanks bunch, assholes.

          •  I work, pay for you and your wars and grandkids (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            theran, 4Freedom

            Thanks a lot. Jesus, your folks were "the greatest generation," but you are the generation that sold out 200 years of American history for fake boobs and and a BMW. (I, for one, don't care to hear about what you did in 1969...to save you some time.)

            •  hehehehehe (0+ / 0-)

              you nailed that one. Bet you got a few worms squirming on the hook. Frat rats and stoners became moguls and Monday night quarterbacks and now want to be taken seriously. We have to because they have mucked this planet up so badly. Or maybe we just have to take them over.

              May you live in interesting times. Ancient Chinese curse

              by 4Freedom on Tue Aug 08, 2006 at 06:07:31 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  Bigot (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            bonesy

            Teacher's Lounge opens each Saturday, sometime between 10am and 12 noon EST

            by rserven on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 07:27:16 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Oh common, (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            NearlyNormal

            You are trying to turn the word Boomer into a negative thing like our Boomer friends in control of the govt. have done with Liberal. If you want to blame people of the Boomer generation for the mess this country is in, you're on the wrong blog.

            Using your viewpoint, if there are Boomers who are responsible for your future troubles, they aren't here. Please don't group me and other progressive Boomers in with George W. Bush.

            If anything, the people of the Boomer generation can determine the people of similar age who are assholes. You know how it is. Can't you pick out the jerks easier because you were born at the same time and lived through the same times?

            Bush was an asshole from the day he was born. Yeah, he's from the Boomer generation but don't blame it on those who wouldn't have a beer with him if he begged us.

            It's just a matter of time. Thirty years from now most of the Boomers will be dead and you will be paying for the debts that the Republican Boomers have stuck you with. You're preaching to the choir here. You need help and friends who care about you. If pissing and moaning about an entire generation gets your rocks off, have fun. It may be the last fun you have before you have to blame the post-Boomers for fucking things up. It's "change it or lose it" time now for your generation. Do it now or pay for it later. Good luck.  

            The lunatics have destroyed the asylum. (-6.25,-5.13)

            by Skylor on Tue Aug 08, 2006 at 01:59:51 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  There are still guys out there on the front lines (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          NearlyNormal

          Guys with grey hair in a ponytail down to the middle of their back that have been doing their thing with free clinics for forty years serving the homeless, migrant worers, drug addicts, urban poor, and gradually building a national primary care movement.

          Women like "tania" who have been organizing so long they are legendary, but still have the energy of a teenager.

          The present administrations backlash attempts to destroy half a century of steady hard won advances and to erase the civil and human rights protections that most of us had assumed were points we had made in favor of a return to the good old days of the cold war when terrified people allowed their government to squander the resources needed for improving peoples quality of life in favor of improving the bottom line of the military industrial complex.

          Live Free or Die (-8.88 -9.49) IMPEACH THEN TRY FOR WAR CRIMES

          by rktect on Tue Aug 08, 2006 at 05:29:20 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Didn't blow it. Much of the leadership (0+ / 0-)

          was jailed or murdered.  Remember COINTELPRO?

      •  Yeah, so 'often hear about'... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Creosote

        and guess from whom?

        That was a good line.

        If we want to turn the country in a different direction, imho, I think we need to have our own leaders now.

        Freedom is merely privilege extended unless enjoyed by one and all -9.50, -5.74

        by redstar on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 02:09:26 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  right fucking on you do (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          SFJen, VoteHarder, Stripe

          If we want to turn the country in a different direction, imho, I think we need to have our own leaders now.

          find your own leaders and find them fast. become a leader. there is nothing you could do more valuable than recognizing the gravity of the times and acting accordinglyby communicating that gravity to as many of your comrads as you can.. we are on a precipice. ecology wasn't even a friggin word when i was a kid, and now we are finding out we could be headed for extinction. things are moving faster than i can even imagine.

          think completely outside the box. don't accept the framework of democracy you have been handed. completely question everything. create a new way. be prepared for massive changes in our society in your lifetime.

          beware of the global elite, consider yourself a citizen of the world and hear voices that resonate w/you outside our borders. don't limit your concept of winning to mean a certain party in 2006 will be the party of the future. open your mind as far as you can. create a mass movement, that is the only thing powerful enough to combat the evil forces threatening the planet. good luck. we are all counting on you. when your children grow up and tell you that you blew it, be proud of them, it means you raised them to have courage.

      •  what kind of leadership... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        SFJen

        would you follow?

        You can make it if you focus on connections, not on differences.
        -7.00, -6.77

        by sunflight on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 04:07:44 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  HOWARD DEAN (4+ / 0-)

          or someone like him.
          Someone unafraid to say what he thinks, not what he thinks will poll well.
          Somone with conviction.
          Someone who will not condecend to those who want to make this country right again.

          Orange is the new Blue

          by SFJen on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 06:16:49 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Six months younger than me? (0+ / 0-)

            You'd pick a boomer?  Why, after all that you have said?

            Teacher's Lounge opens each Saturday, sometime between 10am and 12 noon EST

            by rserven on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 06:47:31 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Jeebus (9+ / 0-)

              ok dude,

              I have tried not to specifically target you, but you are really chapping my ass.

              You seem to be under the impression that I, either as an indvidual or some self-appointed standard bearer of my generation, hate all things Baby boomer and blame all things BB for all of the evils that ever happened in this world, or at least this country.

              First:
              My Parents are Baby Boomers.

              Second:
              You are completley missing my point. I do not hate baby boomers. I do not think each and every person that could possibly be counted as a BB is personally responsible for the fall of Western Civilization, American Political organising and discourse, puppies, Christmas, Unicorns, and all that shit.

              All I am saying is that I am sick and tired of hearing from your generation that my generation isnt doing anything just be cause we arent doing exactly what your generation did. I am tired of asking for help when I need it only to be condecended to.

              And as of very recently, I am tired of being called a bigot for pointing out the rather simple fact that it was an earlier generation than mine who allowed all these things to happen.

              I. Am. Sick. Of. It.

              Sunflight asked who someone my age would be willing to follow. I said Dean.
              Dean is not a liberal
              Dean is a moderate.
              But Dean Listens.

              It is not soley about age
              . It is about attitute towards the up and comers. The ones with the new paradigms and new attitudes.

              Thats why, ok?

              Orange is the new Blue

              by SFJen on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 07:04:50 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Not 'dude', Jen... (0+ / 0-)

                You apparently are sick and tired of people doing what they aren't doing hardly at all, which is asking you to be just like us, which nobody has done.  We don't want you to be like us.  We want you to be like you, if you can ever figure out what that is.

                You (collective) have from time to time asked for us to help.  If we offer anything intended to provide that help, we get attacked.  Make up your damn minds what you want.  But remember, the world is not the way it is because of boomers, the world is the way it is because of every damn person in it, including you.  If you want to make it different fine.  Do so.  We'll help you if you want it.  But f'ing A, quit the blame crap...and the bigotry out of some of you (plural).

                Teacher's Lounge opens each Saturday, sometime between 10am and 12 noon EST

                by rserven on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 07:33:56 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  no (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  foxfire burns, darrkespur

                  I am sick of people doing in this site and (ahem) on this thread what they seem to be doing quite a bit latley-bashing the youth movement. If fact, it is the point of this entire diary.
                  You seem to be illustating the diarists point well.

                  Orange is the new Blue

                  by SFJen on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 07:53:21 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Who have I bashed? (0+ / 0-)

                    Show me.  What have I said that has bashed young people?

                    Teacher's Lounge opens each Saturday, sometime between 10am and 12 noon EST

                    by rserven on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 08:00:09 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  strawman (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      apocryphal rumor, darrkespur

                      Bashed young people? Please.
                      Besides calling somone a Bigot, your entire list of posts on this thread have been condisending and rude to those of us, young and old alike, who think that many of the self professed "teachers and helpers" of the current youth movement do not truly understand that movement. As such, they treat it as a lesser child to thier own political activism days while simultaniouly disvowing any and all resposiblility for anything that happened politically from the Hippie days through the present.

                      You said above that:

                      world is the way it is because of every damn person in it, including you

                      First off, no kidding.

                      Secondly, you are being deliberatley obtuse if you trying to defend the notion that there arent different levels of resposibility for our current political climate.

                      The first election I was eligible to vote in was the 2000 presidential election.  

                      Could I have worked harder after 2000-
                      You betcha. And that I didn't until '03 is my responsibility.

                      Am I resposible for the political slidings that happened before my birth?
                      Oh I don't even hardly fucking think so

                      Neither I nor my political generation enabled the right wing to take over my country. That glorious distinction belongs to the "me" generation, most notably the ex-hippe turned yuppie. The boomers.

                      Like therisnospoon said:

                      Because if boomers want to know what's wrong with America today, they shouldn't look at the youth.  We're doing what we can.  They should look in the mirror.

                      Orange is the new Blue

                      by SFJen on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 08:34:32 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  The bigot was...as it turns out... (0+ / 0-)

                        ...pretty much the correct call, as it turns out, in that case.

                        I've described my viewpoint, as someone who has been a teacher and worked with and for young people for 30 years.  I'm sorry you find that condescending.  What you really mean, I think, is that you didn't want to hear what I had to say.

                        Rude?  To whom, specifically?  People who perpetuated stereotyping of people my age?  Or young people in general, who I have spent my adult life in service to?  Or is truthfulness considered to be "rude" these days?

                        You have asked us, from time to time, for help.  Yet you attack us if we don't do it right, even though you never give us a clue about what you want from us.  Why not tell us, instead of sniping at us?

                        You want us to get out of your way?  I've done that.  We've all tried to do that, but that doesn't seem to be what you want either.  You want our money?  Some of us have supplied that as well...and space to hold meetings and secretarial staff to do the grunge work, but that's not been accepted in the spirit it has been offered.

                        So tell us.  What do you want?  Stop bitching and moaning at us, because we didn't do squat to you except help educate you and get you to grow up.  Tell us what you want.  Be an adult.    

                        Teacher's Lounge opens each Saturday, sometime between 10am and 12 noon EST

                        by rserven on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 09:04:34 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

          •  he's one of my heroes... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            SFJen

            And I worked for his campaign and was devastated when it hit the skids. But there are many of us here who have conviction, are unafraid to say what we think, and will not condescend to those who want to make this country righ again. Perhaps we are the leaders we want to follow.

            Maybe it's time we stopped complaining and started articulating a real vision for the future.

            You can make it if you focus on connections, not on differences.
            -7.00, -6.77

            by sunflight on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 07:06:35 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Thats why I like him (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              sunflight, NearlyNormal

              He is the first political leader who actually made me feel empowered to do something, absent any "formal authority.
              I saw the Ghandi "be the change" in him, a politician(!), and it inspired me.

              To this Day, I go to San Francisco For Democracy Meetings :)

              Deaniacs are frikkin' awsome :)

              Orange is the new Blue

              by SFJen on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 07:11:09 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  Follow the future (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          sunflight, SFJen

          I would vote for the candidate who looks toward the future and plans for it.

          We had a guy like that JFK.

          Al Gore in my opinion would be a great leader.

          He actually thinks and reads books.

          And he cares (unbelievable in todays world)

    •  and the Boomers brought us REAGAN (30+ / 0-)

      Let's not forget that the Boomers turned into the ME Generation and brought us Ronald Reagan.   And if you look at the demographics of the Bush vote, I suspect you're going to find that the Boomers were among his strongest supporters.

      For those of us in GenX, life in the wake of the Boomers was characterized by an employment universe dominated by job descriptions containing the phrase "...does not lead to..."   As in, "Terrible grind of a job with lots of drudgery working as an assistant to some self-important boomer.  Does not lead to a job where you can use your brains or do anything creative or interesting, we already have other Boomers for those positions..."  

      Thus a larger number of us went into business for ourselves: not for the money, but for the freedom, including freedom from the overweening self-important Boomers who saw us as competition and wanted nothing more than low-level slaveys.

      Now all of this is not to say that anyone who graduated from college before 1980 is automatically suspect.  Clearly there are Boomers out there who have stood by their values since day one, have remained consistent, don't condescend to anyone younger than themselves, didn't vote for the Regime, and didn't catch a ride on one of the economic bubbles that blew out of the arses of the Regime and its predecessors.  (In fact, any Boomer who's stayed consistent and who also understands the meaning of 60 plus hour work week to make ends meet gets the title of Honorary GenX Member":-)

      And in any case we all need to work together regardless of demographics, to throw the Regime out and restore the Constitution and fix the climate crisis and so on.   But this needs to be emphasized: there is no room for smugness on the part of those who have had it relatively easy.  

      •  I would temper my remarks about Gen-xers, who (8+ / 0-)

        alas often poll quite well for the GOP.

        Freedom is merely privilege extended unless enjoyed by one and all -9.50, -5.74

        by redstar on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 02:10:56 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  depends on when one draws the line (8+ / 0-)

          x'ers, like boomers, are divided in the middle between more liberal and conservative cohorts. the republican base are the late boomers/early x'ers, where the democratic strength is in the early boomers and late x'ers-early millenials.

          crimson gates reek with meat and wine/while on the streets, bones of the frozen dead -du fu (712-770)

          by wu ming on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 02:22:35 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I'd love to see numbers on this. (3+ / 0-)

            For my part, I always figured the reason for it was that folks coming of age in the Reagan era were more exposed to neo-liberal and libertarian BS, back when college professors started teaching Ayn Rand in PoliSci classes, and the collapse of the SU tolled the death bell for Marx and Gramschi classes, so the brithdate range was like 1962-1974.

            Since I thought Gen-X went '64-'74, that sorta covered it for why Gen-x'ers were a bit moronic in their political outlook.

            Full disclosure: I'm in that age group.

            But I didn't come of age in the US...

            Freedom is merely privilege extended unless enjoyed by one and all -9.50, -5.74

            by redstar on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 02:30:59 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  See I dunno (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              UTLiberal, boofdah, redstar

              I feel like being taught Marx in school would have probably soured me on it.  Too dogmatic, too rigid, too unlike reality.  Too much like the conservative bullshit I actually WAS taught in school.  Discovering it on my own actually forced me to question it and come to a more intelligent view.

              I think that, if anything, being taught the dogmatic conservative spin would have produced more kids like me, where you see it has nearly no resemblance to real life and you rebel.  That was, after all, what happened to people like Jonah Goldberg when it came to the liberal values they were taught through the schools as kids.

              Read James Loewen's "Sundown Towns"!

              by ChicagoDem on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 02:52:11 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I thought Goldberg was home-schooled. (0+ / 0-)

                He certainly acts the part.

                Freedom is merely privilege extended unless enjoyed by one and all -9.50, -5.74

                by redstar on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 02:59:27 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  there are secular homeschoolers (0+ / 0-)

                  and homeschoolers who are strong Democrats.  Don't paint all homeschoolers with the same brush.

                  •  Irony. (5+ / 0-)
                    1. Homeschooling really developed out of the hippie movement.  The first wave of modern homeschooling was on the dropped-out left.

                    Then the Christianists and Christian Separatists discovered it and remade it for themselves.

                    Along the way--and more and more and more commonly now--a lot of other folks started homeschooling for a wide range of very good reasons.  I know families that homeschool (we do) who do so for religious reasons, like not enough religion the in schools.  And families that do so for religious reasons, like way too much religion in the schools.  And families that look puzzled, baffled and amused at the idea that their homeschooling has anything to do with religion.  Some that do it because they object to the secular propaganda from Big Brother and want their children to question authority and think critically.

                    There are lots and lots of liberal homeschoolers.  It's tiring to be bitched at because we're not conforming.  I imagine it feels the same to have pinheads condemning all Catholics, if one's a liberal, activist Catholic....

                    There are lots of communities whose politics are fragmented.  It's foolish to generalize about who an individual supports simply because one has an idea that people who (fillintheblank) support the GOP. It's easy to let that morph into bigotry.

                    Jimmy Carter is an evangelical.

                    'Nuff said.

                    "I desire what is good. Therefore, everyone who does not agree with me is a traitor." King George III

                    by ogre on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 04:19:44 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  i agree, hippies (0+ / 0-)
                      were the first in this wave of homeschoolers. people like abbey hoffman and jerry rubin started saying break away from the system. don't believe what they tell you in school, its all a pack of lies. i homeschooled my kid on and off for years because we lived a somewhat gypsy existence and i had other ways i wanted him to frame numbers and life and authority. i stopped when he entered junior high because i felt socially it worked for him and i didn't feel qualified to teach him more advanced science and math.

                      hippies pulled their kids out of school partly because they didn't want to have them conform into the system, so much programing goes on in institutions. christians started it about a decade later. by then montasory and other progressive teaching methods at private schools became available. plus, the public schools got better in many areas of the country.

              •  PS - it wasn't that bad. Depends on who was doing (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                ChicagoDem

                the teaching. If you get a good prof its one thing, bad prof, the other.

                The good profs taught the far more critical-thinking stuff, like Gramsci (thus the reference) or Georges Sorel.

                Freedom is merely privilege extended unless enjoyed by one and all -9.50, -5.74

                by redstar on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 03:04:54 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  30-something politicians (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            NearlyNormal, Nulwee

            I've seen those Gen-X statistics.  Depressing, really.

            Still, there are a bunch of great Gen-X politicians in the House. (And some lame DLC ones like Ford)

            •  Speaking as a Gen-Xer (11+ / 0-)

              Generation X is the first generation that will not outperform their parents.  We've known this since we hit college in the mid-1980s.

              We have been called 'slackers' forever.  See us in the 80s teen movie heros like Marty McFly and Ferris Buehler, to Dante in Clerks. Our current situation as people between 35 and 49, in supposedly our peak earning years, with high bankruptcy rates, poor earning power and we will, very likely, be the second generation in American History not to produce a President, much like the 'Lost generation' who were teens in the 1950s.  We were the last generation sure we'd never get old because the nukes would fly before then.  

              We were the first to engage computers when they were hard to deal with, only to see our out -- writing web pages, building computers, writing programs, get swiped by those same boomers complained about above and shipped to India to improve THEIR Stock portfolios, while our 'Stock Options' that were going to 'make us rich one day'-- and we got instead of health insurance and pensions -- went to toilet paper.  

              As I write this, I prepare to graduate this december with a second degree totally removed from my first one, with job prospects in the toilet, and certainty that I will spend my retirement eating dog food and living under a bridge, because there IS NO retirement fund.  There will be no pensions for me, and even if Social Security Survives, It will never pay the skyrocketing costs, I won't be able to save for retirement, because every penny I earn will go to keeping a roof over my head. The generation behind me that I see in my college classes are far more optomistic than my peers.  They grew up without the spectre of World War III over their heads.  They're BETTER then we are with computers, as proud as we X'ers are of our Pac-Man and Zelda, the new kids run rings around us now, far more integrated with their cell phone instant messaging, IPods, the familiarity with the internet that comes of having it around since they were babies.

              Generation X is going to vanish from history without leaving much of a mark, and the war between the Ys (or Millenials) and teh Boomers is just flying over our heads.  We're busy hunkered down trying to make ends meet.  

              We have no desire to offend you -- unless you are a twit!

              by ScrewySquirrel on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 05:49:37 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  You might be right (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                NearlyNormal

                I hadn't thought of it from that angle before.  But, big-time world-historic changes are upon us.  The end of cheap oil, for one thing.  The end of US hegemony, caused by Bush, for another.

                Your generation is going to get a second chance in a changed world, I think.

          •  Yes, this is why GWB is such as aberration (0+ / 0-)

            He is way out of line with most early boomers, and his kids are out of line with most of the early millennials.

          •  I Think You're Wrong (0+ / 0-)

            I'm a late boomer and very few of my peers are Bush supporters.  Those older than me seem to be compelled to "atone" for their youthful indiscretions...

      •  Reagan's election... (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        boofdah, bebacker, apocryphal rumor

        ...put the lie to the fact that all young people in the 1960s were on the left.

        Some were; a few were hard-right; but a lot of them were just driven by the culture, the music, and the prospect of the draft. There were millions of those who dabbled in the hippie-protest movement that moved on to something else when that died off, and I'd wager a good number of 'em voted for Reagan.

        •  But don't forget, Reagan's election was also... (5+ / 0-)

          ...tainted by corruption, fakery, scandal, and dirty tricks that have become the hallmark of every Republican election since. Carter might have indeed "been too good of a person to be an effective politician," as conventional lefty wisdom has it; but I truly believe that he was screwed out of the '80 election.

          I was only 10 when Reagan was elected, but remember the Iran hostage crisis clearly; and how Republicans were constantly trying to paint Carter as weak and ineffectual because he couldn't get the hostages home.

          Then, magically, mere minutes after Reagan took the throne, the hostages were miraculously freed...

          •  the 1980 election marked the beginning (8+ / 0-)

            of the right wing noise machine. A lot of excellent senators, like Birch Bayh, went down with Carter. I wore a black armband for weeks. I could not believe that my country had elected this moron and grade B actor.

          •  caught off guard (4+ / 0-)

            w/regards to the power of the media framing. the iran hostage crisis, and what really came down was so outlandish anyone ahead of the curve was considered a tin hat (before the term).

            can this generation even fathom how whitewater threw such a wrench in the system? unheard of! and by todays standards, its nothing. can you eben imagine if kennedy went thru what clinton did w/monica. the media today is such a well oiled machine, it probably was to a degree then, but nothing like today. the diffderence is we've got their number, we have a way to refute! fast! immediate. before i don't think people even realized we were being taken on a ride. reagan would never have gotten the pass he did in todays world. many people had no idea of our involvement in el salvador, nicaragua. it just wasn't headlined. or maybe i was just not paying attention.

            today, the impact of the web on the invasion of lebanon, the swift international responce, this could never have happened back then. times have changed.

        •  And this was a group of people raised on TV (0+ / 0-)

          homogenization

          incredible devious power of image

          image it seemed no one was interested in seeing behind

          That happened on my shift; before mid-50s, you'd babysit and there might be books or magazines; afterward they'd apologize if they didn't have a television, or if the screen was small, or if it was still black-and-white.

    •  A bit more credit (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      catfish, bebacker

      Yeah, today's youth deserve a bit more credit.

      P.S. I've Digged this.

    •  Lots of us older boomers hate Bush, (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Creosote, Darksyde888, Magnifico

      and lots of us spent many days going door to door trying not to re-elect Bush. Now I will grant you that lots of my generation voted for Reagan and Bush I, but so did lots of the WWII vets and the generation that was born during the depression.

      I am not sure that generation wars help anyone. If you are looking for solid statistical correlations, educated people were more likely to vote for Kerry in 2004. The less education you had, the more likely you were to support Bush.

      •  Older boomers vs. younger boomers (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        blue jersey mom, bebacker, jjellin

        IIRC, the "baby boom" includes anyone born between 1945-64.

        However, there is a big difference between boomers born 1945-53 and those born 1954-64.

        The older boomers had to worry about a draft. The older boomers were also not able to vote about it until they were 21.

        In 1972, the draft ended. In 1972, 18 year olds were given the right to vote. 18 year olds were also considered legally adults.

        The younger boomers did not have to worry about a draft. They could vote and drink at 18. They were adults.

        The older boomers are still as divided as they ever were. The younger boomers, however, are the generation who elected Reagan, Newt's Congress, and George W. Bush.

        Let's make Tommy Moore our Governor.

        by wayward on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 03:52:48 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  It serves nothing to point fingers (8+ / 0-)

      To try to assign blame to any generation is oversimplified and a waste of time in the end. Everyone is victimized and part of the problem and part of the solution. Division gains us nothing.

      Ordinary people have to band together to have any hope of cleaning up this mess, regardless of the year of their birth.

      I seriously doubt many find the current state of the world desirable.

      Our shared anger needs to be channeled into fixing what ails us.

      Read Armando's diary today about people who do something, even if the odds seem long.  

      •  AMEN n/t (3+ / 0-)

        Click here to support my walk in the Breast Cancer 3-Day.

        by SanDiegoDem on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 07:41:21 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  thank you (5+ / 0-)
        There seems to be a lot of anger upthread, so I just wanted to thank you (and anyone else who's not joining the circular firing squad) for a little re-direction.

        Even though thereisnospoon was finger-pointing a tiny bit right at the end, it seems to me that up until that thereisnospoon brings up some great points.

        I am 25 & trying to make a living; I don't use my real name here, nor do I let any non-friends read my blogs on myspace page because I really believe it could/would jeopardize my job.  I did what I could in the '04 presidential campaign: I could only afford to send Kerry $10, but I did have some time, so I walked & knocked doors in my precinct for the couple months before November & then serving as a poll-watcher on election day.  But I could barely spare the time:  I did everything after work & on the weekends because I had to keep working 40 hrs/week to make sure the bills were paid, not to mention not let my apartment turn into a pigsty, take care of my cats, and still maintain my social life.  (I did combine my social life & walking a bit when I convinced some friends to walk the neigborhoods w/me.)  

        And you could say I did it holding my nose.  I really never was a huge fan of Kerry.  Don't get me wrong, I thought he was lightyears ahead of Dubya, and would have been a far superior President (just watching the debates got me all tingly anticipating a well-spoken Pres.)  But he never inspired me.  He never did anything that made me really take a second look and say, wow...this is a guy really worth working for.

        We all have issues to overcome if we're going to work to elect Dems (hopefully Dems worth working for), but it doesn't help ANY of us if we're just going to argue about who is to blame.  Time to CHANGE what the problem is, and we're gonna need EVERYONE to help make it happen.  What's that great quote....?

        Be the change you want to see.

        "So long as we have enough people in this country willing to fight for their rights, we'll be called a democracy." ~Roger Baldwin

        by spyral on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 09:01:26 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Thank you (3+ / 0-)

          This baby boomer thanks you for trying in 2004.  Keep the faith.  You are able to imagine other points of view and also to influence your friends.  These are qualities of leadership.  I hope you are moving towards a position of leadership, as your sig suggests.

          I will take a second look at your comments, when I encounter them, for sure!

  •  tip jar (175+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    SME in Seattle, Jett, maryb2004, hoipolloi, nota bene, pb, Upper West, eugene, matt n nyc, ultrageek, lanshark, ogre, wystler, bolson, arwen, mickT, catfish, vancookie, RunawayRose, Shockwave, wu ming, cotterperson, UTLiberal, Jay C, shayera, ablington, Free Radical, saluda, terminal3, sirmio, kweimann, Creosote, Predator Saint, silence, Lanya, kissfan, km4, foxfire burns, wayward, BlackGriffen, mentaldebris, SamSinister, megs, ecostar, KMc, jerseycorn, Darksyde888, roses, Bearpaw, librarianman, jted, Cardinal96, wader, InquisitiveRaven, VexingEyes, lucid, milton333, PatrioticallyIncorrect, TiaRachel, cometman, besieged by bush, mistersite, Black Maned Pensator, jrm78, ChiGirl88, Bluefish, McJulie, freeyourmind, WisVoter, SanDiegoDem, andyj2287, Dr Seuss, ChaosMouse, zannie, Marc in KS, faithfull, iliketodrum, My Philosophy, G2geek, rstnfld, Caesura, ichibon, Elise, baccaruda, MasonLee, Chinton, Alien Abductee, Webster, clammyc, Simplify, Far left coast, Oberlin JJ, Magamus, huckleberry, skeptigal, reflectionsv37, boofdah, eru, jorndorff, jmonch, wiscmass, sodalis, Lisa Lockwood, sbdenmon, bebacker, JanL, thiroy, jay23, noweasels, skywriter, Prof Dave, ThaliaR, occams hatchet, Progressive Liberaltarian, redstar, trashablanca, tarheelblue, Taunger, jsamuel, SFJen, fuzzex, bdmac, fat old man, Yellow Canary, theadmiral, Magnifico, Texas Blue Dot, Albatross, TheBlaz, abstractgecko, Unusual Suspect, Marcus Tullius, jlove1982, arbiter, Chairman Bob, justalittlebitcrazy, FireCrow, NewAmericanLeft, Fox Ringo, NearlyNormal, STEVEinMI, ER Doc, dirtfarmer, sharilynn, apocryphal rumor, Josh or Con or Both, rage, Clive all hat no horse Rodeo, BB10, righteousbabe, VoteHarder, MarketTrustee, Dreaming of Better Days, Downtowner, elie, kidneystones, zephron, Land of Lincoln Dem, kml, nojobro, Hamish in CT, old wobbly, Cali Techie, Sidof79, khereva, california keefer, possum, milkbone, jazminecat, Dartagnan, suburi, Positronicus, syl, unkrupped, flumptytail

    for reclaiming the pride of America's youth from the smear attacks.

    Ever wish there were One Big Wiki-Style Clearinghouse for all the GOP Scandals? Well now there is.

    by thereisnospoon on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 01:43:23 PM PDT

    •  Plus I Loved.... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      TiaRachel, jlove1982

      ..."Fuss" Feingold...unless that was a typo.  ;)

      Baaaa! Baaaa! :::Chomp!::: Beat Doc! www.wright06.com

      by InquisitiveRaven on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 01:45:33 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Best diary in a long time (18+ / 0-)

      I've been thinking of writing a diary about this issue, but yours is WAY better than mine would have been.  This is an excellent and comprehensive look at not just the youth, but life in America and trying to carve out a secure future today.  This country has become fully owned and operated by the power elite, and the incredible compilation of private personal data that documents every move one has ever made with a 0.2 second google search is the perfect cudgel with which to bash anyone attempting to climb the socio-economic ladder, and the only mechanism necessary to sustain the status quo.  We don't protest because we FEAR.  Fear that a single arrest is all that is necessary to be disqualified from consideration for advancement.  Fear that our college or graduate degrees won't even earn enough extra earning power to even pay for the student loans themselves.  Fear of economic devastation due to an unexpected illness.  Fear of not being able to financially support the family we want to someday have.    Look in the mirror indeed.  This country really has deteriorated that far.  

      Honesty had been the single trait most closely associated with Bush, but in the current survey "incompetent" is the descriptor used most frequently.

      by Progressive Liberaltarian on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 02:12:41 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  As one of the (6+ / 0-)

      people who has questioned the lack of involvment by youth in protests, thank you for giving some of the answers. I still don't know what can be done about the conditions you describe, in the short term at least, other than trying to elect like minded  people and hope that they will be an instrument for change and not become part of the problem, such as Leiberman did.
      Highly rated !!

      "Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet." Napoleon Bonaparte

      by ichibon on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 02:14:49 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  protests (5+ / 0-)

        I'm not even sure why participation in contemporary protests is a benchmark for youth activism.

        Perhaps the "Free Mumia from Palestine's Womb" signs look a little archaic and silly to the fragmented-media/Internet generation.  Can you blame them?  

        ~~~~~~ I've always admired your tart honesty and your ability to be personally offended by broad social trends. --Principal Skinner ~~~~~~

        by cardinal on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 03:25:21 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  in the current US media environment (0+ / 0-)

          it is completely reasonable to question the value of mass protests. 300K people march, practically zero national coverage.

          Note - I participated in the Vietnam-era protests. (to give you an idea of my age bracket)

          Looking for intelligent energy policy alternatives? Try here.

          by alizard on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 07:11:59 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  meh (6+ / 0-)

      just like you young 'uns to make excuses and usee all those confusing numbers and statistics to explain your apathy.

      /snark (duh...)

       

    •  Excellent breakdown (8+ / 0-)

      on several of the primary reasons the "younger generation" hasn't exploded onto the political scene. Another reason may be the fact that, back in the 60's, college age men had the draft to worry about. Facing the prospect of being forced to fight in a war you and everyone you know believes is wrong had a very sobering and motivating affect on that generation.
      I just hope to God it doesn't come to a new draft to act as a catalyst for a "this far and no further" moment of clarity.
      I hope, but I have absolutely no faith in this bunch in Washington. I put not one desperate act to retain their power and wage their wars beyond them. Not one.

      Heartbreak tempered by courage can be the genesis for rebirth.

      by Lisa Lockwood on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 02:42:14 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yes, it's the draft (6+ / 0-)



        If you reached draft age during the peak Vietnam draft years you have the highest probability of being a Democrat. (And if you reached legal drinking age during the Reagan years you have the highest probability of being a Republican.)

        . . . solutions emerge from [our] judicious study of discernible reality.

        by realitybased on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 03:41:51 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  How about this... (0+ / 0-)

          If you reached legal drinking age at 18, (b. 1954-67) you have the the highest probability of being a Republican.

          The Republican generation is the late boomers/early Xers. They got all of the benefits of what was done for the boomers, as well as no draft, the vote and legal majority at 18.

          Let's make Tommy Moore our Governor.

          by wayward on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 04:18:54 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Yes, we enjoyed the benefits (4+ / 0-)

            of getting our heads cracked open at age 4 during riots fought by...boomers.

            We enjoyed the benefits of graduating from college during the worst depression since the Great one--an event that depressed our generation's earning power throughout our lifetimes, relative to older and younger generations.

            We enjoyed the benefits of dating in an era when sex equaled death, with no hope of treatment.

            We enjoyed the benefits of getting laid off by Boomers during the dot-com bubble, who, to avoid competing with us, hired their children, under the assumption that only a 22-year-old could have ten years' experience in a three-year-old technology.

            We enjoyed the benefits of being priced out of housing at the exact moment we were ready to trade up for growing families, without the option of living with our parents that younger generations could take advantage of.

            We enjoyed the benefit of being baited-and-switched on retirement funding, as defined benefit plans dried up before defined contribution plans became widespread or popular.

            Yeah, we really cleaned up!

            •  Then why do you vote republican? (0+ / 0-)

              {plural you}  According to the graph, 55% of people my age vote or lean democratic.

              Teacher's Lounge opens each Saturday, sometime between 10am and 12 noon EST

              by rserven on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 05:12:34 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Thank you--Bait and Switch (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              NearlyNormal

              You've said this so much better than I could.  "Bait and Switch" says it all about how we late (younger) boomers have fared under the shadow of the early (older) boomers.

              Being priced out of housing--and unable to retire, you watch.  We will be changing the bedpans for $5/hr at the nursing homes for the boomers, which will have such long waiting lists by the time we need them, we will never be able to get in.  And when we do, the price will double, and we wont be able to afford it.  The genXers after us will inherit all their parents' money so they will be able to afford the nursing home--and then we'll be changing their bedpans.  I figure I'll be working till the day I die, and so will my kids.

              Governing a large country is like cooking a small fish. ~Lao Tzu

              by jjellin on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 06:39:12 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  trough city. you got that 'xactly right. n/t (0+ / 0-)

              Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

              by MarketTrustee on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 08:42:55 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  How 'bout this? (5+ / 0-)

            If you reached legal drinking age during the George W. Bush years, you have the highest probability of being an alcoholic. I know I've scarfed down more than my share of anesthesia in the last 6 years.

            Heartbreak tempered by courage can be the genesis for rebirth.

            by Lisa Lockwood on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 04:43:14 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Maybe that's why... (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          ChaosMouse, NearlyNormal, flumptytail

          a guy asked me if I was Republican.

          Several people in the vicinity gasped and stepped back; people who knew that I was the last person who might be.

          But looking at that chart... my age demographic is suspect.

          I just laughed, it was so... bizarre, unexpected and implausible--as well as having come out of nowhere.

          "I desire what is good. Therefore, everyone who does not agree with me is a traitor." King George III

          by ogre on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 04:23:38 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  I actually reached the drinking age 3X (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          RainyDay, jjellin

          in the reagan years because they kept raising it.

          www.tasinifornewyork.org

          by naufragus on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 05:20:12 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  For me it was twice. (0+ / 0-)

            The first time they raised it (in Mass.) they grandfathered in those who could already drink.  The second time it was raised about a year later, those who were already 18, but not yet 21 could no longer order a glass of wine in a restaurant.

            Governing a large country is like cooking a small fish. ~Lao Tzu

            by jjellin on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 06:41:48 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  Good diary, (10+ / 0-)

      and I agree completely.

      I just think that the youth would better serve itself and the cause of the republic with some focused attacks on exactly which segment of the boomers is responsible for the bigotry.

      Otherwise everyone's just being a bigot.

      There are tons of boomers out there who are marching right along with you.  I went to a Democratic Reunion a couple weekends ago and there was one person I could call young.  Most were older than me, and I'm nearing 50.

      I absolutely respect your work, and love it that there are youngsters (joke, man, joke) out there who are picking up the torch from us doddering old fools.  But we still have spunk in us, and we're on your side.  Survey the oldsters on dKos and find out how many of them voted for Reagan.  How many of them ever voted for a Republican for national office.

      We are on the same team.  Focus, as you do, your attacks on the real bad guys, and try not to spray your confreres, old as they may be, with vitriol.

      I am absolutely hartened by the youth I encouter.  They are angry and they want some real leadership in the country.

      So do most of the boomers I know.

      We know how to activate, and we do it.  

      •  Distinction... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Marc in KS, flumptytail

        For those of us old enough to remember the old protests (I am, barely; my recollections are those of a kid...), there weren't many people who weren't young involved.

        That's why there was that schism in the society in which age was deemed the obvious marker.

        Today, it's not that easy.  There are plenty of young folks who get it, and older folks too.  The young, statistically, are more likely to be liberal--and the older folk are more likely, statistically, to actually vote and be involved.

        There are reasons--damned good ones--for younger folks not having the time or money to be very involved.

        That really sucks; it's a danger to the society.

        It's also true that there's not a good reason for not voting.  Even when the choices are... not apparently palatable.

        Maybe the Democratic candidate doesn't really deserve your vote.  Say... Lieberman.  But the country does.  And even with Joementum... I'd vote for him over a GoOPer.  A majority is critical to the Republic's health.

        "I desire what is good. Therefore, everyone who does not agree with me is a traitor." King George III

        by ogre on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 04:28:59 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  There has got to be a better term than 'youth' (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        cheeselord, SFJen, VoteHarder

        that's a marketing term, a pidgeonhole.

        It even sounds dumb to say it, like "teenager."

        The minute someone says "youth," watch out. This is not a church picnic.

      •  Its difficult to articulate which segment (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Marc in KS, NearlyNormal

        of the boomer population is "responsible". I honestly never thought of it that way.

        But, seeing the reation of some of the older folks is just as vitrolic as us youngins, I'll try.

        The boomers I blame are:

        1. The "Regan Democrats" who sold out thier "hippie" ideals for a tax cut.
        1. The segment I like to call the lazies. Maybe they got tired of marching. Hey, I hear ya. But they saw cut after cut after cut into our way of life and let it slide.
        1. Most especially- the blamers. The boomers who wither sold out or got lazy, but still find time to bash the up and comers.

        Does that help? I don't feel like I'm articulating it well enough, but I've been having this conversation for 6 hours and shit, I've had enough.
        Peace

        Orange is the new Blue

        by SFJen on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 08:53:10 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Don't forget the (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          SFJen

          corporat-crats from the "Greatest Generation" that created all that advertising that fucked with the heads of so many children, children who grew up to be the boomers everyone is so pissed at.  Don't forget corporate-controlled politicians, and politicians without morals who have screwed the country up.  (Which president was the last to balance the budget? a boomer.)   There are plenty of people to get pissed at, but when people start saying the boomers fucked the country up, it pisses me off: plenty of boomers have forgone those lives everyone here thinks are so selfish and have dedicated their lives to making the world a better place in whatever way they can.  Peace Corps, teachers, community organizers, and like that.

          •  I feel you (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            foxfire burns, Marc in KS

            I wasn't actually bashing the boomers- or trying to at first. When the boomer meme was brought up in thread, I felt it was the most accurate desciption of the folks currently in charge. I mean, someone sold out, and I wasnt even a zygote at the time, so I doubt it was me....

            Anyway, my point was pretty much the same as yours- quit hatin' on my age group! You want us to fight the good fight, show us how, but don't denegrate us if we ultimatley choose a different path. :)

            Orange is the new Blue

            by SFJen on Tue Aug 08, 2006 at 10:27:35 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Boomer Presidents (0+ / 0-)

            Havent been so good in my opinion. I mean, shit, Clinton ran and governed to the right of Nixon, for gods sake.
            NAFTA
            TennCare
            DOMA
            Faith Based Initiatives
            The f'in V chip

            And then the Dubya.

            Heh.

            Orange is the new Blue

            by SFJen on Tue Aug 08, 2006 at 12:46:38 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  Well, you took your sweet time... (0+ / 0-)

      posting a jar. Are you a gen X'er too? ;)
      And I couldn't have put it better than redstar, you 'nailed it'.

      Happiness depends on being free, and freedom depends on being courageous. - Thucydides

      by Clive all hat no horse Rodeo on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 03:28:45 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  speaking as a boomer (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Smallbottle, jjellin, khereva

      who's in "starting over" mode, i have vast respect for your generation.  you beat the hell out of us, frankly.  we're a bunch of self absorbed whiners.  and we're shitty parents, with our culture of fear and overprotective "baby on board" fascism.

      •  Well speak for your self (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        jmonch, SFJen

        I mean I agree with your respect for this younger generation, and I think so many boomers are "self absorbed whiners" and you are right about the overprotective fascism, but that doesn't apply to all of us.  

        Governing a large country is like cooking a small fish. ~Lao Tzu

        by jjellin on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 06:49:12 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  okay... (0+ / 0-)

          everyone except jjellin.

          ;-)

          seriously, tho', i'm obviously generalizing here and there're about forty-eleven exceptions.  it's not axiomatic.

          •  It's just that some of us (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            jmonch, NearlyNormal

            saw this stuff happening, and were helpless to stop it (on a large scale), so just did what we could to counter it in our own families.  Well, maybe I'm just talking about myself (and you?  you seem to be resisting, or is this just a new thing based on regret?).  I resisted, but not always successfully. I still had a house full of plastic toys, and of course put my kids in car seats, and (reluctantly) told my kids they could not ride bikes without helmets after the law changed, one of whom rebelled and never rode a bike after that (!)  I think kids/everyone needs to develop alternative survival strategies because they can't always be protected (I know you know this).  I think this is what fairy tales are all about--very subversive.  They tell kids to keep going, when things look really bad, even impossible.  There is help around the corner, keep looking.  You may get royally screwed along the way (and you will!), but keep going, don't give up.  That to me is the message parents and everyone else needs to give kids, not wear this helmet and everything will be okay.  So, maybe you're right.  I want to be outside this, but I'm not--

            Governing a large country is like cooking a small fish. ~Lao Tzu

            by jjellin on Tue Aug 08, 2006 at 05:30:48 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  yes and no (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              jjellin

              Obviously on the genuine safety issues that have been improved for the current generation (car seats, bike helmets and that sort of thing) it's been great that kids are physically safer.

              It's the idea that we make the world step aside because our children are present ("I have a baby on board, so drive especially carefully around me!").  V Chips (which no one uses) and over-scheduling and over-supervision and over-accessorizing.  Dismissal of what the prior generation did; we tend to treat our own parents as if they had no idea what they were doing.  Constant streams of rewards for just getting through the day, which end up encouraging mediocrity and devaluing excellence.

              We protect our kids from failure, which may be the worst disservice of all.  Of course they're going to fail; that's one of the most important ways we learn things.  If a child doesn't know how to deal with failing, he's not going to know how to cope with life.  And he's not going to really appreciate the joy of working to excel.

              I could go on and on but I think I'm babbling already.

    •  Really good to have you set this out plain (0+ / 0-)

      The statistics on American Idol were especially persuasive. The "no youth" bit has got to be a Republican meme, a wedge put in to keep people who think and feel divided from each other and from something like hope.

      This site is so central for all of us. It helps bind up the places breaking open from the strain simply because age as such doesn't count here.

    •  When I was your age, sonny... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      theran, NearlyNormal

      ...I was up at dawn marching in the streets, disabling munitions and chaining myself to military installations until about 9am when I had to get to class and the lab to work on the cure for cancer. But you probably don't remember cancer. Thank me later.

      Later, in the afternoon it was all balling chicks and smoking weed. Writing, editing, printing of various pamphlets and flyers was usually done after dinner from about 7:30 until the real partying started around 10pm.

      But, of course, back then there was a spoon.

      When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist. -- Dom Hélder Câmara (1909-1999)

      by hoipolloi on Tue Aug 08, 2006 at 03:58:59 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  a great comment (6+ / 0-)

    regarding "youth" participation, is here.

    somewhat unrelated, but my diary just below yours has a pretty interesting (blockquote) test for war, speaking of youths and protest.

  •  Amen, Sing it, Brother! (9+ / 0-)

    Heyyy....you aren't that old!

    No one who knows any young people can say that young people don't ______ (fill in the blank).  Because I've found lots of young people (OK, OK, younger than me is still like dirt...say under 30...jeez, I AM old!) at my local Dem headquarters.  I see them manning boths at fairs, canvassing, helping poor old Dem ladies across the street (thanks!) and on the phones.

    I even saw them at Yearly Kos so I know some of the most sage and knowledgeable Kossacks are under 30...and some waaaay under 30.

    So get out of your rocking chairs!  Join across the generations and get to work!  Otherwise, I'll start with the old Shirley Chisholm campaign stories...whippersnappers!

    Baaaa! Baaaa! :::Chomp!::: Beat Doc! www.wright06.com

    by InquisitiveRaven on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 01:44:35 PM PDT

  •  And look at the leaders we are developing now... (7+ / 0-)

    If you look at the people leading the progressive netroots movement almost all of them are in their 20's or 30's.

    Pre-order unConventional, the official photo documentary of YearlyKos 2006!

    by Raven Brooks on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 01:46:24 PM PDT

  •  Boy, our parents (17+ / 0-)

    sure left us kids a country in the shitter.

    SquareState.net - The Daily Kos of Colorado
    (-5.38/-4.36)

    by pacified on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 01:46:30 PM PDT

    •  I thought about that yesterday (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      SME in Seattle, Darksyde888, ichibon

      What happened hippies?!! :)

      When did getting back to the garden become wal-mart?

      "If destruction be our lot, we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen, we must live through all time, or die by suicide." Abe Lincoln

      by faithfull on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 02:04:43 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  they sold out (10+ / 0-)

        They turned into the ME generation and sold out.  Most of them anyway.  Some ended up becoming acid burnouts.  Some remained consistent.  

        But in any case, "hippies" are obsolete, a product of an economy where people could afford to survive on the margins and live off the surplus.  Remember, in those days you could rent a three-bedroom apartment in San Francisco for fifty dollars a month, and earn enough to BUY a HOUSE on a BUSBOY's wages and tips.  

        Peace, love, and happiness?  Sure, but those values are not exclusively the property of "hippies."  There was a guy named Jesus who started preaching that stuff a couple thousand years ago, and plenty more have done so since then.  

        •  Jesus? (0+ / 0-)

          "If destruction be our lot, we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen, we must live through all time, or die by suicide." Abe Lincoln

          by faithfull on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 02:11:15 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Don't forget the media (12+ / 0-)

          Economic considerations are certainly worth mentioning. But I think it is also worth mentioning that there never were, really, as many hippies as people seem to think.

          It's all about the media narrative.

          Circa 1968, the media created a narrative of hippies and protest. It was trendy. It was important. It was on the radio. It created forward cultural momentum. Everybody was part of something big.

          In 2001, the media created a narrative of George W. Bush, strong leader, savior of the free world, popular president, and they continue to work hard to keep that narrative going in spite of its growing absurdity.

          In 2004, on the day a George W. Bush victory was declared, there was a spontaneous protest march starting at the college (so, presumably, full of young people) which drew something like 300 people. That's pretty big, considering the size of our town. There was media coverage, sure, but it was treated as more or less an anomalous event.

          We've all seen the footage of Bush's inaugurations, both of them, edited carefully to make it look like the people lining the streets weren't there to express their outrage.

          So any time you're tempted to think young people today are apathetic, consider: maybe they're screaming themselves hoarse, and you haven't noticed because it's not on CNN.

          •  Bingo! Hoardes of hippies, smoke & mirrors (0+ / 0-)

            Yes, the media.  The bloody media, with its endless fascination with the sensational at the expense of the thoughtful.  Two cats in the back yard become an infestation of feral felines taking over the neighborhood and eating babies for dinner.  A handful of hippies becomes a national movement, a surging red tide of the deliberately-unwashed, just waiting to deflower your middle class virgin daughter.  

            What also pisses me off about this is, many of us early GenX bought the lies and the BS, and believed that the Boomers had indeed made a mass movement that paved the way for liberty and equality and the end of puritanism, etc., and then we got out into the real world and got burned by those who had once mouthed the words but then sold their souls.  

            For example think back to the early days of the internet, how many sanctimonious voices inveighed against sullying this pristine new medium with anything as crass as commercialism.  Meanwhile, many of those self-same were out there specuating on squatted domain names and raking in little fortunes with which to play the pump-and-dump game with dotcom startups.  

        •  Meanwhile, since I graduated high school (1959) (0+ / 0-)

          the population of the country has at least doubled. Those places in SF were affordable because up to the 60s, there had been the 30s (little new building, the Great Depression), the 40s (war), and the 50s were just over.

          Just a flood of population.

          As a kid, late 40s, I played on building sites for the first subdivisions. It was impossible to think that they would continue to expand at that rate over everything -- old neighborhoods, good cropland. In the 50s, you'd look at subdivisions north of Denver, everything the same, no trees, and wonder, who could live like that? It seemed poisonous from the beginning.

    •  And they didn't flush either (0+ / 0-)

      Karl (Rove) is a shameless bastard. Small wonder his mother killed herself. -Larry Johnson

      by McGirk on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 02:08:05 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Yeah, we really let it slide (0+ / 0-)

      When we were your age blacks drank out of seperate fountains, a woman with a law degree (hardly any) was able to get a job as a secretary if she could type, possession of a joint would get you 3-5 years in many states, one could dump any kind of shit in the air or the water and no one could do shit about it, when they decided to have an illegal war they just drafted your ass and away you went, to war, jail or canada, but away you went.  If you got pregnant you had a baby or risked your life in a backroom abortion shop, unless you were rich-and you are right?

      What a fucking stupid post.

      I hope it is just that my snark detector is busted.

      "I said, 'wait a minute, Chester, you know I'm a peaceful man.'" Robbie Robertson -8.13, -4.56

      by NearlyNormal on Tue Aug 08, 2006 at 02:43:17 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  mirros (10+ / 0-)

    excellent comment:

    Because if boomers want to know what's wrong with America today, they shouldn't look at the youth.  We're doing what we can.  They should look in the mirror.

    No doubt.  Particularly with respect to the Democratic Party.

  •  Slacker youth: not involved and proud of it (6+ / 5-)
    Let's see, living off mommy and daddy, driving a new SUV bought just because they graduated from high school, all college expenses paid by parents who take second and third mortgages, and sitting in summer school because of poor grades in the fall and spring.   Yeah this is the focus of today's youth--it's all about them.   Help and respect others?  Hardly ever happens.

    What's in their wallet?  Mommy's credit card.

    A draft will cure all of this in one day.

     

    •  Um (34+ / 0-)
      1. show me these people - as thereisnospoon has pointed out, you are peddling in myths and lies
      1. fuck you, fuck you to hell, for suggesting sending kids off to war is a good "cure" for their entitlement. How dare you.

      I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day

      by eugene on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 01:51:24 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I think (5+ / 0-)

        that what he is saying is that the lack of conscription takes away some of the motivation for protest.
        Not the first time I've heard that view advanced; for good or ill.

        "cut it out, kestrel!! you're killing my buzz, man." - PhillyGal

        by kestrel9000 on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 02:08:02 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Ill, I say. Ill. (9+ / 0-)

          The implication (not so subtle) is that youth protested the war primarily because they didn't want to be forced to go- not for any moral reasons.

          If that's so, then I'd like to hear an explination about why half or more of the marchers were young women, who were in no danger of being drafted and (if we're going to be cynical- and this is a very cynical argument I'm rebutting) stood to benefit in job opportunities for every male that was shipped off.

          There are other, more accurate reasons why there is no major youth movement today as there was then.  May I suggest one reason is 30+ years of hating on "hippies"?  It's the only term more sullied than "liberal".  

          Why would a kid want to emulate that which is hated in ALL quarters?

          •  The draft IS a key factor. (5+ / 0-)

            I think it was Charlie Rangel (though it may have been Conyers) who introduced a bill to reinstate the draft. You can't charge him with being a warmonger.

            His intent was to point out the inequity in the make up of the military. Very few upper class kids. If there was a draft, everyone would be equally at risk.

            That risk was a real factor in the opposition to the was in Vietnam. Not from just the kids who would get drafted, but from the parents and families of those kids.

            •  Ok, I'll grant that it contributed (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Creosote, kestrel9000, Magnifico

              But consider how that argument, even if true, advances the idea that opposition to Vietnam was a selfish act by selfish hippies.

              My mom was in no danger if being drafted.  She didn't protest for selfish reasons, but because she wanted her government to behave morally.

              Every time we say that the lack of draft is the reason kids aren't protesting, we support the notion that people are only anti-war for selfish reasons, which re-inforces the rightwing's view of the left.

              •  It isn't selfish to want to avoid going to war. (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                alizard, kestrel9000
                It's sanity.

                And all I'm saying is that it contributed. Certainly there were peace advocates, senior citizens, even veterans, protesting the war that were not at risk for being drafted. But the big thing that turned the perception of the anti-war movement from a bunch of drugged out hippies to a middle-America cause was the fact that everyone's family was at risk. Middle-aged insurance adjusters bacame protesters because their kids were at risk.

                •  Ok (0+ / 0-)

                  Agreed.  It is a true statement.  But it is still not a statement that helps our cause, which is why I encourage people not to repeat it.

                  •  It happens to be true (0+ / 0-)

                    I'm old enough to remember the protests, but not to have participated.

                    When the draft ended, campuses went silent. The protests simply ended.

                    Even though the war did not.

                    That's a fact.

                    •  not arguing the fact (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Creosote

                      arguing the wisdom of repeating it.

                      I went to the early Iraq protests- some of them were massive and that was before the war even "began".  why did those people come out?  there was no draft.  

                      they came out out of a sense of moral conviction and knew what to do because of a perhaps imagined idea that Americans had stood for moral convictions against an unjust war once before- Viet Nam.

                      besides, when the draft ended it was taken as sure sign that the war was in the process of ending.  they can't fight without soldiers.

            •  The Draft Bill. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              wader, Cake or Death

              The Draft Bill was sponsored by Charlie Rangle (D-NY) in the House and Fritz Hollings (D-SC) in the Senate.

              I respect the intentions of Rangle and Hollings, but I strongly disagree that a draft is a good idea.

              • It gives the neocons a blank check of troops to invade Whoknowswhereistan.
              • Bush and friends don't give a shit about protesters. Let's face it, for all the protests, Nixon was reelected in a landslide.
              • Wealthy kids will still get cushy spots in the Guard. (With all the new draftees the Guard won't have to be deployed anymore!) Others will get notes from sympathetic doctors.

              Conscription to promote peace is like passing out condoms to promote virginity.

              Let's make Tommy Moore our Governor.

              by wayward on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 04:07:38 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  The main reason why (0+ / 0-)

                the draft ever existed was because there weren't enough volunteers to do the job the govt. got itself committed to. Right now we have a govt. that says it is "bringing democracy to the world" as an excuse for robbing their own country. The govt. isn't supporting military veterans and will run out of volunteers soon.

                If the govt. insists on creating wars around the world as an excuse to steal, it will run out of people who are willing to die to make them rich.

                That, of course, will bring back the draft. It's a slow process but it will come back. Bet on it.

                Then the people who will be affected by the draft will see things that they never bothered to think about before the draft. They will organize and get active and do what they can to save their own lives. It only makes sense. It's coming again. Don't say you weren't warned.

                The lunatics have destroyed the asylum. (-6.25,-5.13)

                by Skylor on Tue Aug 08, 2006 at 12:38:01 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  nope - they cannot (0+ / 0-)

                  those who would continue the all-war-all-the-time policy know that they cannot choose to propose a draft, as that would become a tipping point for public opinion ... thus, Rangel & Hollings little game ...

                  it's easy for the middle class to talk tough, if the cannon-fodder is to be drawn from the unwashed masses ... much harder if the nice kid from the neighborhood might have to report to the draft board for induction next week ... suddenly, a policy of engaged diplomacy looks a whole lot better than the current morph of teddy roosevelt's big stick ...

                  these neocons depend on an army manned by have-nots ...

                  BushIsWeak.com ... somebody really ought to register this domain name ...

                  by wystler on Tue Aug 08, 2006 at 08:36:30 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

        •  Still (4+ / 0-)

          The idea that conscription is seen by some as an acceptable method of engaging in politics is very troubling to me.

          I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day

          by eugene on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 02:40:55 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I don't know (0+ / 0-)

            that the commentor was advocating it or saying that it was acceptable.
            The impression I got was that he was simply explaining the phenomenon - or rather, LACK of phenomenon.

            "cut it out, kestrel!! you're killing my buzz, man." - PhillyGal

            by kestrel9000 on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 03:47:13 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  It's also fucking stupid (0+ / 0-)

            It basically reduces to: ``There is no problem with young people not solved by the Iraqi resistance.''

            I can think of some other ones:

            ``There is no problem with fundies not solved by the Iraqi resistance.''

            ``There is no problem with corporate profiteers not solved by the Iraqi resistance.''

            ``There is no problem with out of touch boomers not solved by the Iraqi resistance.''

            etc., etc.

            Fake Canadians are total hosers.

            by theran on Tue Aug 08, 2006 at 12:42:16 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  If that's true (0+ / 0-)
          (and likely it is) doesn't it demonstrate that the boomers activism wasn't altruistic and idealistic but merely basic self-interest?
          •  damned straight! (0+ / 0-)

            just be sure you define that "self-interest" as not wanting to go AND not wanting to see friends go AND not wanting to see folk i have never met go ... to fight and die in a pointless war ...

            all those who argue that young women protesting were not at risk are ignoring the fact that these young women didn't live in a cloister, and knew many young males who were at risk - brothers, friends and brothers of friends ...

            damn, has Ayn Rand really had such an impact since the 70s?  all these folks who believe that self-interest concerns only one's own person ...

            BushIsWeak.com ... somebody really ought to register this domain name ...

            by wystler on Tue Aug 08, 2006 at 08:41:48 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  thank you (0+ / 0-)

        excellent reply

        Politics is like driving. To go backward, put it in R. To go forward, put it in D.

        by gkn on Wed Aug 09, 2006 at 11:11:16 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I knew those people in high school... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Elise

      mysteriously, they all have finance jobs now, I think.

    •  And uh.. college expenses paid? (19+ / 0-)

      I do believe that debt is at an all time high right now and that includes college debt for students.  I'd say I grew up in a fairly affluent neighborhood, but I'm still paying off shitloads of student loan debt.

      So who exactly are these students that get a free ride through college from their parents?  I don't know a single person my age that falls in that category, and I know a fair number of people.

      Pre-order unConventional, the official photo documentary of YearlyKos 2006!

      by Raven Brooks on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 01:54:49 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  what about the parents? (7+ / 0-)

        My primary financial goal for my children now is to get them through college without them taking any student loans.  It'll be great if I can manage, but it's hard, even with our upper-middle-class income.

        Sullen fires across the Atlantic glow to America's shore:
        Piercing the souls of warlike men, who rise in silent night
        -William Blake

        by Leggy Starlitz on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 02:45:32 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  There's a few (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        wystler

        I know a few people like that here at MSU. Without exception, they are all from affluent Detroit suburbs. Most of them, though, are good people, and only a tiny tiny fraction are actually totally subsidized by Mom and Dad.

        Though, I'll never forget the day in Poli Sci 325: American Executive Process in which a bleached blonde ditz asked a few of us before class:

        "How does a credit card work? My mom says I can't spend anymore."

        As for me, I'm an escaped yokel who made it through State on FinAid and scholarships. The administration, in fact, just announced that all new students at the poverty line or below will have all loans converted into grants or work-study. I've never been prouder of my alma mater.

        I say Billings, do be careful with that missile!

        by Chairman Bob on Tue Aug 08, 2006 at 01:25:25 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  stupid statement (18+ / 0-)

      but the troll-rating is undeserved.

      Ever wish there were One Big Wiki-Style Clearinghouse for all the GOP Scandals? Well now there is.

      by thereisnospoon on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 01:55:22 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Not that they don't exist (15+ / 0-)

      There are of course children of privilege who have those things, however they are in the minority. By painting all youth with that brush you are being incredibly misleading.

      History has shown no one runs up a deficit like a Republican. They love to spend money as long as it isn't their own.

      by Cali Techie on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 01:56:35 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Completely moronic post. (9+ / 0-)

      Speaks to at best 1% of the 18-24 crowd.

      But your statement par for the boomer course. Resentment of youth is part and parcel of a bitter transition from middle-age to retirement.

      And given the dearth of boomer achievement after all that noise in the late 60's, I guess I can understand the bitterness.

      Freedom is merely privilege extended unless enjoyed by one and all -9.50, -5.74

      by redstar on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 02:00:13 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  of course it was moronic, (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        jules too, wader, redstar, Magnifico

        but your anti-boomer tirade is almost as foolish.  I do not resent youth, I am not bitter, and I'm doing the best damned job I can to make life better for youth.  It may not be good enough, but I'm trying.

        IMHO, this whole generational mud-slinging is silly and counterproductive.

        •  Maybe so. (5+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          TiaRachel, tovan, Magnifico, jjellin, mlbx2

          But it would be nice to not be constantly reminded about all those "acheivements" the boomers made. We hear all about 'em, you know.

          But the only real political achievements I see by boomer-generation politicos in the US are roll-backs of the New Deal and the Great Society.

          And I will note that the mudslinging usually starts from boomers complaining about who lazy us youth were and are.

          Freedom is merely privilege extended unless enjoyed by one and all -9.50, -5.74

          by redstar on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 02:51:57 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Points for tenacity (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            wystler, high uintas

            Silly me.  I keep forgetting how certain I was that I had all the answers when I was younger.  Now I'm not sure of any damned thing. (Which is profoundly irritating.)  I wish you very well.

            •  Heh. I'm older than you prob think, and I (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              TiaRachel, mlbx2

              certainly don't claim, to myself or others, to "know" everything.

              But having grown up outside of the US and working most of my professional career in it, I got a sense for what real, left-leaning political achievement looks like it. And I ain't seen none coming from any generation in America. Assuredly not from our older brothers and sisters who had all those Woodstock LPs. I might not know what righteous shit looks like all the time but I certainly know fucked-up shit when I see it, and formerly-regular-pot-smoking boomers calling youth lazy, apathetic and antisocial is fucked up shit.

              Freedom is merely privilege extended unless enjoyed by one and all -9.50, -5.74

              by redstar on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 03:12:55 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  A word from the silent generation (9+ / 0-)

            The New Frontier, the Great Society, the civil rights movement.  If you think about it, the Boomers were too young to actually create and drive those things.  Who were those idealistic young people that Kennedy called forth that went into the Peace Corps and VISTA, and came out of their service with a revolutionary calling to build a more fair, more just, more peaceful America?  Remember:  the boomers were too young. So who were those masked men and women?

            The sound of silence?

            (BTW, we also invented rock'n'roll.)

            Do you still need me?  Now that I'm 64?

            A few members of the Silent Generation:

            Cesar Chavez

            Miles Davis
            Martin Luther King, Jr.
            James Dean
            Gloria Steinem
            Gore Vidal
            Elvis Presley
            Bob Dylan

            Muhammad Ali

            Geraldine Ferraro
            Abbie Hoffman (add that antiwar movement!)

            Bill Russell

            Aretha Franklin
            Allen Ginsberg
            Hunter S. Thompson

            Jimi Hendrix

            So, did the Boomers create that nebulous thing called "the 60s"?  

            For balance, we had our assholes:

            Dick Cheney
            Pete Rose
            Lee Harvey Oswald

      •  Is there room for anymore resentment or hate in (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        wystler, high uintas

        that young heart of yours, than is exhibited in your comment.  Your comment just exposes the naivety of your youth.  Geez I can't wait till you guys get a little wisdom and age on you.  

        "The Future's So Bright, I Gotta Wear Shades."--Pat MacDonald

        by hopscotch1997 on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 03:01:08 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  let's see... (0+ / 0-)

        you typed your post on a personal computer which evolved from a device essentially invented by boomers over an Internet which for practical purposes, was a boomer creation.

        While speaking as a boomer, I'll admit that I am not all that happy with either President our generation has produced, we are the first generation in history to have produced the tools needed to clean up after our mess.

        You don't like what we're doing? Set up a website and use it as a basis to do your own organizing. Back in the 60s, mail meant snailmail and spending lots of money on postage and flyers were something you did with a light table, paste-up, and a photocopy machine and research was something you did at a library... assuming you knew exactly what you were looking for and it physically existed where you were looking. You can start your own political organization or business without getting off your ass.

        Succeed and you'll be in a position to whine about our lack of accomplishment. Fail and your children will damn you through eternity for however long the human species lasts. Which if the corporatists and theocrats continue to rule... don't expect your great-grandchildren to survive to adulthood.

        Looking for intelligent energy policy alternatives? Try here.

        by alizard on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 07:30:55 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  You are exactly right.... (9+ / 0-)

      it certainly is "the kids these days". My generation is disingenuous, complacent, ignorant, apathetic, and worthless. You hit the nail on the head.

      That's why it's the youth of America that are dying in Iraq. Where are all of those 40 year old enlistees?

      That's why more young people voted in 2004 than in the prior three decades.

      The political climate of the 60s that baby boomers so nostalgically pine for was a time when America's leaders listened to the masses. And what happened?

      Once those masses got older and became powerful, they stopped listening.

      That fantastic legacy that has been left to my generation is a legacy of complacency, apathy, and ignorance, but by our leaders, not the youth. Just because you don't hear us doesn't mean we aren't shouting.

      •  er, uh ... (3+ / 0-)

        yep ... the dead in iraq are between the ages of 18 and fifty-somethin' ...

        real truth is that it's the underclasses that have joined the regular services, and the can't-afford-college folk who got hoodwinked into the guard ... meanwhile, kiddies livin' large on their parents' dime continue to ...

        glad to know that you're doin' some hollerin' ... now, if only the young'uns show up at the polls this November ...

        BushIsWeak.com ... somebody really ought to register this domain name ...

        by wystler on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 02:17:09 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Good points (8+ / 0-)

      After I am done with my two jobs, summer school to graduate by december, running for office, running a blog, paying for rent/heating/insurance/gas/and sometimes food, Im going to send you a thank you card for all the great work you did in the 80s.

      jerk

      "If destruction be our lot, we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen, we must live through all time, or die by suicide." Abe Lincoln

      by faithfull on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 02:21:06 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  broad brush (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      wader, SeekCa

      But it's an accurate one for a large swath of people, they aren't all "youth" though. I've seen these type who are well into their 30's. Really though, these wealthy slackers are a small percentage of the total population. Go talk to some college kids at a non-Ivy League/Prestige school about how they afford the life they live. You'll meet a fair amount who drive a new car and have all their beer paid for by mom and dad, you'll meet even more who are working their asses off and digging a giant debt hole.

      "The power to dominate rests on the differential possession of knowledge" -Foucault

      by Jett on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 02:27:42 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Who are you criticizing? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Magnifico

      Even the very small percentage of young people who fall into this category have their baby boomer parents to blame for spoiling them.

      •  Now there is a quote (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        wystler

        No way to take any responsibility, eh?  By your logic it ain't anybody's fault except the previous generation.  Nice, wonder what your kids will have to say about your accomplishments?

        "I said, 'wait a minute, Chester, you know I'm a peaceful man.'" Robbie Robertson -8.13, -4.56

        by NearlyNormal on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 03:39:22 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Actually (0+ / 0-)

          all I'm saying is that if you don't want your kids to be spoiled brats, don't spoil them. Just like, if you don't want them to be cruel authoritarians, don't abuse them. You do agree that the way parents treat their children determines how those children develop, right?  

          •  Spoken like someone (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            wystler, NearlyNormal

            who never had kids.

          •  determines? No I wouldn't agree with that (0+ / 0-)

            influences, especially when they are young, I'm there with you.  But you were saying that nothing was the fault of anyone except the baby boomers, shoot, just turn it around then, all the good you think the young people are doing is because we taught you right, nothing to do with any particular virtue you have, cause you are just a pale reflection of us.

            which way is it/

            "I said, 'wait a minute, Chester, you know I'm a peaceful man.'" Robbie Robertson -8.13, -4.56

            by NearlyNormal on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 04:50:58 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  Need another Vietnam, thin out their ranks... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      theran

      Thank you quantumspin for engaging in Bart Simpson politics...

      Read James Loewen's "Sundown Towns"!

      by ChicagoDem on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 02:43:39 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  The transient entitlements you describe (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      wystler, theran, Creosote, wayward, jlove1982

      are part and parcel of the me-me-me focus which was made concrete in our society during the Reagan years.  It began before then, but certainly was placed into popular firmament in those awful 8 years of divesting from our entire, shared future for temporary profits.

      Hard to blame youth for the errors of their elders - we teach them, we live with the consequences.  Then, they will . . . many times over.

      So, please stay where you are. Don't move and don't panic. Don't take off your shoes! Jobs is on the way.

      by wader on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 02:56:16 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  No, these aren't slackers (0+ / 0-)

      They are young Republicans.

      Seriously.

      Even if they are not politically active, they will probably vote Republican.

      While this is an admittedly small sample, among my friends from high school, who were born in the late 1970's-early 1980's, there is a direct correlation between their parents' income when they were growing up and how likely they are to vote Republican.

      My friend who is a Democratic Party activist is the son of two public school teachers. Another friend who is a big Democrat is the son of a social worker. Most of my Democratic friends come from modest backgrounds.

      I also have a Republican friend who is working for a Supreme Court Justice. I am not sure what his parents did, but he lived in a very wealthy neighborhood and did get a new car when he graduated from high school. All of my Republican friends come from affluent backgrounds.

      And yes, most of my moderate friends come from middle class backgrounds.

      Let's make Tommy Moore our Governor.

      by wayward on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 04:29:38 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  They do exist (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      alizard, Cake or Death, jlove1982

      This is true to an extent, some of these kids do exist.  However, some of the older generations only see this faction of the youth.  Why?  Because this faction of the youth is the only faction with enough time to get outside.  The majority of 20-30 year olds are stuck at their part time jobs after school, or their full time jobs where they work 60 hours a week just to pay the minimums on their skyrocketing student loans.  Don't chastise young people based on a small faction of their peers, support candidates who will increase pell grants and lower the cost of higher education.  That way the REAL youth will have time to get outside and meet you, you'll be pleasantly surprised by them, I promise.

    •  A GOP strawman argument (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      theran, jlove1982
    •  I see a lot of this. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      theran, jlove1982

      I'm a grad student at a big state school and, sad to say, you do see a lot of this attitude.

      Of course it only goes for some, not all.  There are a lot of interested and involved kids, too.

    •  That is simply not true. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      wystler, theran, zigeunerweisen

      That's a Republican smear perpetrated by Rush Limbaugh that is not true most of the time. Most people who have just gotten out of college live with their parents because they can't afford to pay rent and student loan debts at the same time. That's because George Bush and the Republicans cut student aid and Pell Grants.

      I suggest you work to get rid of the cuts on student aid and quit listening to Rush Limbaugh all the time.

    •  If you want more Americans to kill more Iraqis (0+ / 0-)

      and then be killed themselves.  Then you fucking do it, asshole!

      Your whole line of reasoning is that people will do what you want if you threaten them with death.  Way to promote democratic engagement!

      Fake Canadians are total hosers.

      by theran on Tue Aug 08, 2006 at 12:45:11 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Fucking brilliant (26+ / 0-)

    Can I say that again?

    Fucking brilliant.

    I have been saying many of the same things for a long while now, but you have collected them with clarity and force. Especially the point about resources and making a living - things simply cost more, a LOT more, today than they did during the 1960s.

    I also make the point that we live in a totally different political context than the '60s, especially the lack of a broader movement of protest. The irony is that the youth protest of the '60s would never have happened without the work of the older generation, in the Civil Rights and pacifist movements, that paved the way for what happened in the 1960s.

    So I think those who criticize the young for "apathy" - something you effectively proved is a myth - should attend to the mote in their own eye first. What are they doing to help us protest? To support us, the future of the nation?

    Anyhow, this diary is brilliant, just brilliant...

    I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day

    by eugene on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 01:49:58 PM PDT

    •  There's a few things going on. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Creosote

      First of all, I don't know for sure, but I suspect media coverage of protests is different; in our times, the cable news networks ignore the protests when they can and lowball the attendence numbers when they can't.

      Also, I suspect the most successful protest movements in the 60s were the ones that had the most unified image and message.  Thousands of respectfully dressed, upwardly mobile African-Americans and sympathetic whites converging in Washington with one message.  There was a great diary during the Terri Schiavo mess that showed pictures of the protesters with striking red tape over their mouths.  The protests were puny, but they caught the media's attention -- in part, sure, because of the seeming rightward bias of the media -- but also because of the simplicity and emotional directness of the message.  This directness shouldn't be monopolized by the right, not with so much at stake.

      I think one thing that affects things in a very complex way is the way in which some of the struggles that were so emancipatory in the 1960s have implications that affect politics in a very different way today.  For example, the focus on recognizing the heterogenaiety and diversity of society -- the recognition of individual desires and destinies, for women, for gay men and women, for African-Americans, for those who transgressed their parent's conformism -- is absolutely crucial for bringing so many new possibilities for people's lives.  But this pursuit of individual desire and destiny was also shaped by the emergence of consumer culture, which told people that they could have what they want now -- no sense in saving for a rainy day.

      The emergence of the credit card is I think the single most revolutionary cultural development of the 1950s and 1960s.  This new identity of consuming identity did contribute to the sense that, why wait?  We can have our utopia now!  But it also led to the situation we now face, where the upside of the Protestant work ethic has also been jettisoned, and bizarrely, it is the Republicans who have become the most profligate spenders.

      Nothing requires a greater effort of thought than arguments to justify the rule of nonthought. -- Milan Kundera

      by Dale on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 07:17:01 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Well, (11+ / 0-)

    probably the biggest thing people don't look at in the AI/Presidential voting thing is that the old Tammany Hall-style adage of "vote early, vote often" does actually apply to American Idol.  14-year-old Mindy is going to vote 25 times for the bald guy.

    You've hit on a major point though.  Affordability is paramount.  I've got $35,000 in college loans, the need to get a 40hr/wk job, and with higher gas prices, less free time, etc, it's harder to get involved.  

    Also, there are the problems of the identity thing.  Everything you say, type, or do reverberates.  There's a good deal of info out there on me, just as there is on thereisnospoon.  I have probably hurt myself in that way, and it's probably a combination of naivete (initially) and just my own conviction (now).  

    Finally, I'd love to know where the leadership went, though.  The fear of doing something that doesn't fit into a focus group or someone's idea of "moderation".  The DLC and the crazies, among many others, have diluted things in favor of business-based stuff.  

    That's a lot of scattered thoughts, but that's where I am.  You?

  •  glad you posted this (0+ / 0-)

    but, in the interest of offering constructive criticism, you did not prove anything that really challenges the prevailing wisdom on this issue. once i stop my baby's sqirming, i'll elaborate

    •  Youg people (9+ / 0-)

      18-24 year olds voted more in 2004 than we had since Vietnam

      For the first time we were a solidly Democratic voting block, breaking 55%-45% for Kerry

      Politics is entertainment. Big money realizes they win by keeping people who still have a conscience (aka, lots of young people) apathetic and confused. Despite that, we are growing in power, numbers, and organization.

      "If destruction be our lot, we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen, we must live through all time, or die by suicide." Abe Lincoln

      by faithfull on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 02:03:46 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  in addition (14+ / 0-)

        young voters, especially students, got that turnout in the face of sustained voter suppression campaign akin to those targetting blacks. many of those standing in line for 8 hours in OH were students, or the double-whammy, minority students.

        crimson gates reek with meat and wine/while on the streets, bones of the frozen dead -du fu (712-770)

        by wu ming on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 02:26:22 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Which is one reason why... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Creosote, libnewsie

          ...it is not quite accurate to say that there was "racial discrimination" in Ohio in the 2004 election.

          I don't think Ken Blackwell want to oppress black people. He does, however, want to supress the Democratic vote.

          There is about a 90% chance any given black voter will vote Democratic. Therefore, it would make sense for a Republican to lower black turnout. Likewise, there is a good chance the students at a state university would vote Democratic. Therefore, it would also make sense for a Republican to want to lower student turnout.

          In other words, black voters were not discriminated against because they were black, they were discriminated against because the color of their skin marked them as "likely Democrats".

          Let's make Tommy Moore our Governor.

          by wayward on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 04:41:56 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  absurd (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            theran, faithfull

            black americans have been dfenied their human rights, including voting rights, from the time that they were republicans to the time that they were socialists to to the present where they are democrats. while it is true that voter suppression was broader than solely racial in cause and targetting, the fact that other groups of democrats were fucked over does not in any way, shape or form negate the fact that the right of black americans and other racial minorities to vote being infringed is as hallowed a modern american political tradition as persecuting them with police forces.

            it's more than their being democrats. the real question that your response begs, though, is why democrats don't find it all that important to defend the right of those black americans to vote.

            crimson gates reek with meat and wine/while on the streets, bones of the frozen dead -du fu (712-770)

            by wu ming on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 08:05:55 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  youth voting rate was up (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        high uintas

        but you still got your butts kicked by every other age bracket, including the over 75 crowd (many of whom probably needed walkers or wheelchairs to make it into the voting booths, but they still managed somehow).

        http://72.14.203.104/...

        Less than half of the 18-24 age group bothered to vote in the 2004 presidential election, and we know what was at stake on that day. Sorry, but that seems pretty damn apathetic to me.

        •  isn't that the point? (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          faithfull, libnewsie, Cake or Death
          The old fogies show up 73%, kick the youngens butts, then turn around and tell the youngens they ain't workin hard enough.

          In God we trust. All others must pay cash.

          by yet another liberal on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 03:32:40 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Has it ever been different? (5+ / 0-)

          You act like its a new phenomenon! We voted more than we did in 2000,1996,1992,1988,1984,1980,1976 back to the days of the draft.

          The link you gave is a report called Census Data Shows Youth Voter Turnout
          Surged More Than Any Other Age Group
          , so I don't know that thats what you want to be linking to. Your own reportsays that we increased by 11% in 2004, almost 3 times the national increase of 4%.

          Are there apathetic kids now? Of course!
          Have there always been apathetic kids? Of course!
          Have kids always been more apathetic than fogies? Of Course!

          but we are part of a movement that is changing that! So back off the Fox News talking points about the youth-voter-revolution-that-wasnt and start reading the reports you link to!

          And, as many of us know, it is HARD to break into politics if its not a natural part of your life. Its loud. Its confusing. its hurtful. And people who are old have had many more oppurtunities to be touched by politics and they have a much higher vested financial interest in the outcome of electoral politics.

          "If destruction be our lot, we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen, we must live through all time, or die by suicide." Abe Lincoln

          by faithfull on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 03:33:55 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I was hoping someone would link (0+ / 0-)

            to that data. It was part of the largely-ignored reality check that deflated a lot of the myths about that election (including the role of "values" voters).

          •  Hard to break into politics? (0+ / 0-)

            How hard is it to register to vote, and then vote? Come on.

            I find it ironic in the extreme that the electorate that voted Bush back into office (and implicitly greenlighted the neverending war) was composed, for the most part, of people who never had to think about being drafted to fight in those wars. You would think more 18-24 year olds would be sick and tired of being told what to do by their elders, particularly when life itself is on the line.

            You're right about the "good old days" of youth activism being mostly foggy nostalgia. I just don't think your generation as a whole has much to crow about under the circumstances.

        •  and Guess what (0+ / 0-)

          The election was stolen! So how about we spend time devising ways to get the corporations out of politics and less time yelling at each other.

          Want to know why I didn't vote? I knew it was going to be stolen and that my vote wouldn't matter. If we can change that then maybe, just maybe the people who are cynical and jaded and realize that it doesn't matter who we send to office because the lobbyists will by them up by the dozens, maybe then we will vote and care about politics. It's all about the money, very little about what's best for the country.

          "Babble, Babble, Bitch, Bitch, Rebel, Rebel,Party, Party, sex, sex, sex and don't forget the violence...." Marilyn Manson " www.cafepress.com/katsideas

          by Chaoslillith on Tue Aug 08, 2006 at 08:31:42 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  ahem (0+ / 0-)

      prevailing ignorance you mean.

      Lies, Torture and the American Way! (My Apologies to Superman)

      by Darksyde888 on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 02:55:23 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  The last word hasn't been written yet (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    tryptamine, NearlyNormal

    but I suspect it will take a lot more than just some youngsters protesting to win this fight. Nice diary, 'though.

  •  I took my son to an Angels game on Thursday eve (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    eugene, Elise, old wobbly

    and there were TONS of young people there. I was amazed. Of course, if you're 18 or under (there were a lot this age) you can get in for as little as $5, or $9 if you're over 18. Some of the concessions were priced about the same as outside (Carl's Jr., etc.).

    A much cheaper night than the movies and the game lasted 4 hours. You can get in early and leave late, plus you can actually talk to your friends - something that the movies don't allow. Not bad.

    -6.00, -7.03
    "I want my people to be the most intolerant people in the world." - Jerry Falwell

    by johnsonwax on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 01:52:43 PM PDT

    •  Ha! (0+ / 0-)

      Lucky you.  I live in Boston at the moment.  You've got to sign over a kidney to get a Sox ticket nowadays.  The entire season sells out in January, and even the worst seats in Fenway (you know, the ones behind a post?) are $50 from a scalper.  You can't even see the games on TV anymore, as this year the owners of the team decided to show them all exclusively on their own proprietary cable network (that only comes with the $50/month extended comcast package).

      I tell ya, pretty soon, baseball is going to become an exclusively upper-class sport in this town.

      "Leave the gun ... take the cannoli." -8.38, -7.69

      by Balam on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 04:59:43 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Another Excellent Diary (6+ / 0-)

    You're very consistent that way.

    Who was Bush_Horror2004, anyway?

    by Dartagnan on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 01:52:56 PM PDT

  •  one exception (8+ / 0-)

    this may seem like a quibble, and it certainly does not undermine the silly scapegoating of today's youth, but 28 % with no opinion (which is a rather large number to have no opinion) plus 20% approval equals almost half who don't disaprove of the bush administration or what it is doing.  

    What it is doing.

    •  good point (5+ / 0-)

      and duly noted.

      However, I suspect that these people are those who simply aren't paying much attention, but will as they get older--and the approve/disapprove trends there should remain steady.

      Ever wish there were One Big Wiki-Style Clearinghouse for all the GOP Scandals? Well now there is.

      by thereisnospoon on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 01:58:50 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  yeah (0+ / 0-)

        I know and agree, and props for your comment in response. but I would point out two things (first, my comment immediately below, wish i could rewrite it, for a couple reasons).

        second, as you note, "these are people who aren't paying much attention." This of course applies to people of all ages, but the poll numbers at least indicate that maybe they apply more to that age group?  I guess the point is, maybe they should be paying more attention.

        .... (and the "apathy" label, which I think duly applies across the board -- though frankly I wish I was moreapathetic. -- is sort of supported by that stat. but again, can't say I blame them. and I think that the scapegoating, when that is only reflective of they way we evolve and the pressurs of the times (and as you point out, there is still plenty of passion). is wrong.

        by the way, it has been noted, but your point about rent and the cost of living, is also excellent.

        I have heard reporters from the washington post and elsewhere (and have called the post about this) utter the right wing spin as if it were objective "how come the bush administration does not get more 'credit' for this 'excellent' economy."

        number one, it has been generated by excessive borrowing (which some interpret as the younger generation's disproportionate burden, although frankly it doesnt make sense for almost any Americans)  number two, it has only benefited a small number of Americans, when, continued robust (but still nerve racking, as many workers feel) "employment" numbers aside, what really matters is the increase in real wages. outside of that, the "booming economy:" means nothing.

        and real wages have in fact decreased this millenium, in quite an extraordinary economic turn. part of that is of course tied to housing expenses (in so far as housing prces are tied to inflation measures) but that still largely understates the impact of excessivly high housing costs. combined with a drop in real wages, the fact is, most americans are worse off economically. yet here is the inane press, once again, prattling on about how come the bush administration does not get enough credit (they are desperate to find credit to give to it somewhere, so they dont appear "biased" to the far right.)

    •  also (5+ / 0-)

      I don't think it is fair to compare Kerry to three former Presidents. While he ran a horrible campaign (and did not seem particularly inspiring as a candidate to a lot of people; but that is NOT WHY HE LOST, just another way for democrats to shift the blame away from how they approach politics onto something else) he never was President. We don't know what he could have done.

  •  It wasn't peaches and cream when I was young (15+ / 0-)

    The job market wasn't all that swift during the Seventies because the economy was in the tank (the Dow Jones industrials were below 1,000 for much of that decade) and a large generation had arrived on the job market, increasing competition for what few jobs there were. Good-paying summer jobs went to the sons and daughters of the well-connected, and a liberal arts degree was a ticket to a job waiting tables.

    That said, today's young adults face an even grimmer future than we did, with a huge national debt, a real estate bubble that will eventually burst, a de-industrialized economy, shrinking wages, and the real possibility of a military draft.

    "A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always count on the support of Paul."--George Bernard Shaw

    by Dump Terry McAuliffe on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 01:56:52 PM PDT

  •  Excellent commentary (7+ / 0-)

    I started getting the "apathetic" label in High School (late 70s/early 80s), as my idealistic boomer teachers were disgusted that teenagers were no longer getting involved with political action.  There was no draft any more, what did they expect?

    I tell you what (from my own experience): you tell young people they're apathetic, and they'll live up to the label.

    •  Right on!! (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Jay C, TiaRachel, Cake or Death, eru

      People of all ages have a way of living down to the low expectations thrown their way.  

      We have no more children to waste. US OUT OF IRAQ NOW!

      by possum on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 02:18:51 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  What actually gets me (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Creosote, Cake or Death, eru

      is how many of us don't live up to the "apathetic" label. But we work in very different ways than those expected of us, usually not via the democratic party, for example, which most young folks I know view as a heap of a disappointment even though they tend to vote dem anyway.

      It's young folks that show up every goddamned sunday to feed the homeless downtown. It's young folks that are organizing neighborhood cleanups in parts of my city, that are arranging for rides for seniors in places the public transit is spotty. I know teens who volunteer well past the required amount of time doing all sorts of random crap. I know twenty-somethings who get involved on a local level in all sorts of ways, who are on the board of the community garden, or who work their asses off every saturday doing abortion clinic escort. Apathetic, they aren't.

      But we live in a very different context than the one we had in the 60's, so yeah, our activism isn't going to look the same, either. Protest specifically -- I still think it has uses, but it's a very different game than it was. The government learned a lot of lessons in how to effectively marginalize protesters. Those tactics are incredibly hard to combat in the current media environment.

      I get so. tired. of the generational wars on this blog. But that's fed at both ends -- the "why aren't the young people protesting oh it must be because they're not being drafted" side, and the "everything in the universe is the fault of the hippies who didn't carry through" side. Neither is correct; I have a heap of respect for how hard people worked for justice in previous times, and I expect the same respect for the work I, and many people around my age, are doing.

      Young people are as active as they feel they can be on levels that actually make a difference -- those are usually local, and they're usually not via the democratic party.

  •  Sweet merciful fuck. (9+ / 0-)

    Best thing you ever wrote, and that's saying a lot.

    "If more parents home disciplined [their kids] there would be fewer people I have to smack in public." --Wilzerd Balefire.

    by TheBlaz on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 01:59:52 PM PDT

  •  Who IS doing all the voting?? (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    cotterperson, tryptamine, TiaRachel

    I wonder who is doing all the American Idol voting?

    People who have taken to heart the call to vote "early and often."  Particularly the "often" part.

    Never wear your best trousers when you go out to fight for freedom and truth. -- Henrik Ibsen

    by mik on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 02:00:41 PM PDT

  •  I posted this on the other thread, too. (5+ / 0-)

    My two cents--again.  

    According to the 2000 Census, there are approximately 56 million people between the ages of 15 and 29 in the United States.  Fifty-six million.

    I believe it's a huge mistake to extrapolate personal anecdotal experience as being particularly emblematic in trying to explain a particular population's behavior.  There are way too many variables.  

    In the aggregate, however, if we step back and look at the cohort in the grossest sense, we can get a sense of how that cohort compares to similar cohorts of previous generations.  No one here, however, has done that tedious research.

    We all have different opinions on why this particular group of young people "is the way it is."  Some of those explanations piss some people off--as we can plainly see in the other threads.  Others walk away believing they have an "answer" for what ails today's youth or, perhaps, that there's nothing ailing today's youth.  The answer is there is no answer.   Consequently, not a whole of value comes from these rhetorical wars except false security and bruised egos.  

    It's all fun and games until the Vice President shoots someone in the face.

    by lightiris on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 02:01:14 PM PDT

    •  59 Million, and Minimal Attention Paid to Them (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Creosote, dharmafarmer

      Political candidates write off young people as if they will never vote.  GOTV efforts targeted at young people do work.  Turnout was up 11% in 2004.  Virginia peer-to-peer efforts had a HUGE effect.  Gov. Kaine owes a huge amount to the Young Democrats who came in there and talked to tens of thousands of young people!  However, young people can only listen to P. Diddy and their peers for so long.  Soon, candidates need to step up and talk to these 59 million people.  Whenever a candidate talks to young people it looks like a stranger talking to your newborn baby.  Quit talking down to these kids and maybe they won't be so bitter!  It has improved this cycle, I hear a lot more about the minimum wage and higher education costs.  Talk about their issues rather than social security, which is 40 years away for them.  Yes, social security would be great, but for now they're more concerned about their $5.15 an hour job and the $100,000 in student loans piling up.

  •  A-fucking-men (40+ / 0-)

    Im 22. Ive run for public office in a red county in a red state. Ive taken people to the polls and woken up at 4AM on election day to get precincts ready and had candidates over for fundraisers and canvassed and lobbied local, state, and federal legislators and i know a TON of kids who are doing the same thing every day.

    I think its important to note that EVERYTHING in the political life of a young progressive activist has been a crushing loss! 2000,2002,2004,supreme court, environment, social issues, college tuition, minimum wage, jobs, economy, you name it! We've been FUCKED! its what were used to!

    9/11 was my second week of college. Thats why Im here. I didn't know Bush from Gore in 2000! But now I can lobby a state legislator on specific energy policy based on where they are from and the demographics of their district.

    We are changing. And we are changing things.

    Middle aged people have to understand that the young people in this fight arent fighting to win, were fighting because its right. If we were fighting to win, we'd have been demoralized a long time ago. A win in 2006, a win in 2008, and our country is different forever while we come of age. We are hardnosed motherfuckers I promise you.

    "If destruction be our lot, we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen, we must live through all time, or die by suicide." Abe Lincoln

    by faithfull on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 02:01:28 PM PDT

    •  I should add... (11+ / 0-)

      ...lobbying and grassroots work, to me, seems a lot more effective these days than huge protests. I LOVE seeing those protests from the womens suffrage movement and the anti-war movement back in the day. I've been to a march with 500,000 people and it didnt do a goddamn thing!

      Of course, Im an unofficial member of RuralKos!, so city folk might be able to differ.

      Point being...

      ID RATHER CANVASS

      "If destruction be our lot, we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen, we must live through all time, or die by suicide." Abe Lincoln

      by faithfull on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 02:08:52 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Great post (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      zannie

      EVERYTHING in the political life of a young progressive activist has been a crushing loss! 2000,2002,2004,supreme court, environment, social issues, college tuition, minimum wage, jobs, economy, . . .

      So many shoulders at the wheel and only now can I begin to imagine it may be turning. But will it be fast enough to address global warming?

  •  I see this (4+ / 0-)

    with my nieces and newphews. I went to the U.of KY
    for $79.00 per semester. Went to graduate school at Rugers for $479 a semster as a NJ residents

    Compassion is perhaps the chief and only law of human existence. Dostoyevsky

    by Hamish in CT on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 02:03:47 PM PDT

    •  Wow. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Darksyde888

      $79 is my average grocery bill for a week for two people.

      Nowadays, that would buy you maybe one textbook, if you're lucky and that textbook is "cheap".

      "The love of liberty is the love of others; the love of power is the love of ourselves." - William Hazlitt

      by tryptamine on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 02:48:31 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Wow $79 for groceries for two people?!? (0+ / 0-)

        I wanna shop where you shop!  (unless it's walmart ;))  That's a good deal!  My girlfriend and I probably spend nearly twice that, on our groceries, and we're hardly overeaters.

        "Leave the gun ... take the cannoli." -8.38, -7.69

        by Balam on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 05:09:41 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Similiar to my experience (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      wayward, MarketTrustee

      One of the blows against us in the class war, which is what this really is rather than a generational war, was the marketization of an education.  An education is good when you consider the marketplace of money, it is imperative when you consider the marketplace of ideas.  I'd be glad I went to college even if I was still working as a janitor in an operating room just like I did as I was going through college.

      "I said, 'wait a minute, Chester, you know I'm a peaceful man.'" Robbie Robertson -8.13, -4.56

      by NearlyNormal on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 03:48:50 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Can I add 1 thing? (18+ / 0-)

    To all that you said: tru dat.

    One more thing, though.  What good does getting out and protesting do?  We saw massive demostrations against the war, and what came of it?  Nothing.  Bush & crew ignored them, media played it up for a couple days, then the neocons moved on as if nothing happened.

    Same at the Republican convention.  Except people got arrested on bullshit charges, spent a couple hours in "freedom pens" or whatever they called em, and ended up with something on their "permanent record", thus leading back to the points you made here.

    Running around with signs and chanting gets nothing done these days.  It's working on local elections and getting the right people into power.  We're starting to see that happen, slowly, but it is starting.

    •  Free speech zones (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Creosote, TiaRachel, Magnifico, Albatross

      fuckers.

      And another big A-FUCKING-MEN to that comment!

      "If destruction be our lot, we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen, we must live through all time, or die by suicide." Abe Lincoln

      by faithfull on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 02:09:53 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  It's also worth noting (7+ / 0-)

      That antiwar protest didn't get Vietnam or the draft ended quickly, either - both lasted 8 years past the first protests in 1965.

      I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day

      by eugene on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 02:49:56 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  re: Can I add 1 thing (17+ / 0-)

      Running around with signs and chanting has never gotten anything done. A protest is nothing more than a show of strength-- "Look how many people are pissed off enough to stand around and chant". Its the fear of what all those pissed off people are going to do next: riot? strike? sit around and block traffic? that gives the protesters any power at all.

      It doesn't matter how big a protest is, if the powers that be can be reasonably confident that when its all over and monday morning rolls around, everyone is going to go back to work and get on with their lives, the protest holds no power.

      People forget that in the 60's, the protests were scary. No one knew where all this was leading, and where society was going to go next as everything boiled over. It seemed there was a very real chance of a very real revolution, and not necessarily a bloodless one.

      I think, at least in the U.S. everyone has learned not to fear protests. There may be isolated outbreaks of violence, but the protestors aren't heading over to burn the capitol next or to overturn the government. In other countries, they still have 'scary' protests, but here, no one in power and very few people attending the protests believe that things will go any further than 'standing around and chanting'.

      A protest is a show of numbers and a show of strength, but every protest is a bluff, and nowadays, the bluff is always called. We all want change, but few of us want the kind of change that leads governments to fear protestors-- and they know that.

      •  Basically (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Irfo, Creosote

        A non-eventful protest is about as powerful as a local parade. With the popularity of polls now, it's almost pointless to have a protest for the sake of numbers. What politician is honestly going to be swayed by people walking around for a few hours with signs and chants?

        Remember the anti-globalization movement here? (I use "anti-globalization" because it's the most commonly understood term for it, though far from fair and accurate.) I was involved with it, and the protests were far more exciting and rememberable than the anti-Iraq war protests, but it essentially vanished in the US after 9/11 (it obviously continues in areas of the world most affected by it). It's unfortunate because it appeared as if it was having an effect, though not anything dramatic. The int'l financial institutions became extremely defensive, renamed their projects to sound people friendly, etc. The protests grew larger and larger, they were getting more and more exciting.

        But the leaders and the IFIs caught on and started having their meetings in less accessible locations. 9/11 also scared many activists from appearing violent, or even anti-US, not knowing how the government and people would react at the time. I also agree with the original poster's point about money. There were more and more protests, and they were too expensive to keep attending.

        Anyway, enough about that movement. My point is that protests can have an effect to some extent if they're not boring and practically meaningless, but they can and do die almost instantly. That's why there are special interests groups and lobbyists. They don't get media attention, and involve far fewer people, but they constantly nag and influence those who have the power to change things. Imagine instead of AIPAC, pro-Israel types relied only on protests.

        •  They still have that affect though (0+ / 0-)

          Everytime there is a meeting between the WTO or ASEAN or any other organization there are protests.  They have moved to more and more authoritarian countries, but that just means that the protesters get more desperate and tend to be made up of the people who have the most to lose.

          •  IF you commit to anything more than chanting... (0+ / 0-)
            Its 26 years for terrorism for you, pal.  When the FBI raids you're friend's house, and steals her underwear, because her room-mate had some friends that may have have know people who committed vandalism, it has a bit of chilling effect. The reason my generation doesn't protest isn't because we are apathetic, its because we live in a police state. What the government can do now makes COINTELPRO look like child's play. Starting with the  War on Drugs, and moving into the War on Terror, the government built a truly frightening machine for crushing dissent, and maintaining the status quo.
      •  The deal is that protests can work if they are (0+ / 0-)

        actual civil uprisings, rather than just a big parade.  Sustained civil disobedience such as blocking traffic, striking, etc. can shut down the economy and have a significant impact (think of Ukraine's orange revolution and the civill disobedience that helped overthrow Milosevic in Serbia).

        The problem is, as you say, when Monday morning comes around everybody in the US puts their work-clothes back on and it's like the protest never happened.  

        If you had mass civil disobedience that was ongoing, where people did not go back to work, and continued to block traffic, and interfere with commerce, then something might start to happen.  Alot of people would get arrested, but after a few days they'd be released to make room for a fresh batch of protesters.  Once they're free, they go right back to blocking traffic and interfering with commerce, and so on, in a never ending cycle.  That would actually work.  Back when we first started bombing in Iraq, it looked like that was the scenario that was materializing in SF, but after 3 days it fizzled out and everything "went back to normal".  It was such a waste of an opportunity.

        Of course, the problem is that people don't want change badly enough to take the kinds of risks that such a "revolution" would entail.  They feel like they've got too much to lose, so they make their signs and beat their drums and march in the street on the weekend and tell themselves that they've contributed ... and nothing happens.

        I like your comment that every protest is a bluff, and that it's always called.  I think that's right.  

        "Leave the gun ... take the cannoli." -8.38, -7.69

        by Balam on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 05:26:45 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  From my experience (0+ / 0-)

          You do that, you get called terrorists, the cops sweep in, tear gas the first wave, beat the shit out of them, and then haul them off to some holding pen built from a bus garage. Then, the cops illegal keep them there for days, completely out of touch with the outside world, while conducting random sweeps and mass arrests, in order to prevent a repeat. The media plays long, the unlucky few lose their futures to ridiculous charges, and the rest get their bogus charges dropped after months in legal limbo. Its time for new tactics, the national security state is too good at what it does, honed by 30 years of tough-on-crime politicians, voted into office by terrified boomers. Who wants to face down the Miami Model?

    •  Just for the record ... (17+ / 0-)

      ...during the '60s and '70s, we protesters did more than protest in the streets. We worked behind the scenes against the draft, we fought to get the 18-year-old vote, we helped veterans get jobs and counseling when they returned from Vietnam, we worked for candidates who we thought would do a better job than the ones being elected. We talked with people, we held teach-ins, we did a shitload of stuff that didn't require signs or chanting, although it did require a lot of running around.

      You don't believe much of what the media tells you today about what's goign on. Why believe the media's caricature of the 1960s-'70s?

      •  The media has to caricature it (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Meteor Blades, Irfo, Creosote, matt2525

        the reality would lead to the disbanding of the media as it exists.  The sad part of this conversation is that the kids are somewhat right, they are getting screwed, but the screwers exist in their own midst too.  Can't divvy up in this meaningless way.

        One thing I would say is the financial pressure that the young face today is staggering, and we need to all face that and turn this machine away from a cutthroat society to a society that recaptures the same vision that people of good will of all ages share, the vision of group prosperity with clean air, decent paying jobs, corporations under check and a military that is merely sufficient for defense.

        "I said, 'wait a minute, Chester, you know I'm a peaceful man.'" Robbie Robertson -8.13, -4.56

        by NearlyNormal on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 04:01:33 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  No other source of information (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Meteor Blades, Irfo, Mike Erwin

        I'm willing to bet that a large chunk of the younger population in the US has had no other source of information about the 1960s and 1970s.  In the absence of competition, for many, the media caricature wins out.

        A longer diary detailing the history of the anti-Vietnam-war movement would be a really useful thing for those of us who weren't around to experience events for ourselves.

      •  Exactly (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Meteor Blades

        There is a lot of dirty work that we just don't think about. We constantly see on TV or read in newspapers that the 60s were all about the amazing protests, you don't hear anything about all the other things that were going on. They also blend everything together in a confusing mess, making it appear as if all activists were hippies or some shit.

  •  I see the youth movement in action (5+ / 0-)

    everyday.
    Public service tends to do that. There really are a lot of people even under the age of 18 looking for ways to effect change.
    I think one thing that's being missed is that they tend to be overlooked by the "establishment" types. They'll go to a meeting or two, but feel ignored and leave. Hell, that's what happened to me, and I'm not even that young.
    They've got to be able to find the grassroots they're looking for.

  •  There have been (13+ / 0-)

    many protests I've wanted to attend. But, if I miss a day of work, I don't pay the rent. If I miss a day of class, I have to miss another day of work to catch up. "The Man" has found out how to silence us...threatening our livelihood and future.

    •  protests aren't critical; getting out the vote IS (6+ / 0-)

      Don't worry about missing protests.  A bunch of people standing around shouting does not translate to real change.  That was a 60s tactic, it's now become basically obsolete.  

      A bunch of people lined up at voting booths is what counts.  Put your efforts into registration and voter drives.  All of which you can do outside of work hours (yeah I know, there ain't much "outside of work" for most of us, but at least it's a start...).  

    •  Youth Protests ... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      eugene, WisVoter

      I've seen the youth protest movement take place on blogs, video sharing sites like You Tube and other forms of online communication.

      Remember those huge immigration protests a few months ago? Many young people coordinated on community sites like MySpace.

      So whether we're literally marching in the streets or virtually getting out our message - young people are involved.

  •  I agree in part, and disagree in part (6+ / 0-)

    Everything you say is spot on.  However, you ignore the degradation of education in this country, the rise of the cable talking heads, the repeal of the fairness doctrine, the increasing availability of computer and video games, porn, etc.

    I absolutely believe that the ability of even those who care to effect change is hampered by the need to stick to a grinding job to pay the rent...but I also think there's a lot of misinformation out there, and a lot of people who do not care.

    •  but... (4+ / 0-)

      the availabilty of distractions, the degradation of education and the increase of propaganda don't necessarily mean that the youth is turned off and tuned out.  Sure, you supply reasons why they might be (if they were), but nospoon provides pretty good support of the notion that they aren't.

      Just because the glass on my street could easily give me a flat tire, doesn't mean I have a flat tire...

  •  Neil Young opined about the lack of protest music (7+ / 0-)

    But in our current corporate media driven music industry, what is the likelihood that protest artists will get airplay.  What about the Black Eyed Peas "Where is the Love" or Bright Eyes "When the President Talks to God".  Or KMFMDM?  Though BEP got airplay it was very limited. For that matter how often does Neil Young's new music get airplay?

    Who else can name a protest song that has gotten very little airplay?  I'd like to know.

    •  neil young (6+ / 0-)

      is not going to get anyone under 40 fired up.

      Immortal Technique will though

      An Exact Earth Pinprick
      "I hate quotes, tell me what you know" - Ralph Waldo Emerson

      by indefinitelee on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 02:16:51 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  wow (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Creosote, TiaRachel, NearlyNormal

        I'm an oldster who has come to realize how our music, back then, (the 60s) was incomprehensible to the oldsters then. But I KNOW that something's going with the new music, even if a can't keep up with it.  I'll give you that "Caught in a Hustle", from your link, gave me more chills than Niel Young's latest.  Where can I link to lyrics of that song, because they are worthy of a diary in themselves.  The chorus needs to be out here for people to read. Pretty haunting. Bob Dylan was also a poet first.

        "...write down that we never gave in, that the mind of a child is where the revolution begins..."

        Thanks

        -8.0, -7.03 don't always believe what you think...

        by claude on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 02:39:34 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  hey now (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        eugene, wayward, Darksyde888, Balam

        I'm only 23, and Neil Young can get me plenty fired up.  I can't be the only person my age who grew up on his music.

        And I have no idea who "Immortal Technique" is.

        •  do listen to this (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          zigeunerweisen, NearlyNormal

          I was pretty fucking impressed.

          link

          -8.0, -7.03 don't always believe what you think...

          by claude on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 02:46:24 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Technique (5+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            claude, lesliet, Creosote, zigeunerweisen, kml

            just google Immortal Technique Lyrics.
            From The 4th Branch

            The voice of racism preaching the gospel is devilish
            A fake church called the prophet Muhammad a terrorist
            Forgetting God is not a religion, but a spiritual bond
            And Jesus is the most quoted prophet in the Qu'ran
            They bombed innocent people, tryin' to murder Saddam
            When you gave him those chemical weapons to go to war with Iran
            This is the information that they hold back from Peter Jennings
            Cause Condoleeza Rice is just a new age Sally Hemmings
            I break it down with critical language and spiritual anguish
            The Judas I hang with, the guilt of betraying Christ
            You murdered him stole his religion, and painted him white
            Translated in psychologically tainted philosophy
            Conservative political right wing, ideology
            Glued together sloppily, the blasphemy of a nation
            Got my back to the wall, cause I'm facin' assassination
            Guantanamo Bay, federal incarceration
            How could this be, the land of the free, home of the brave?
            Indigenous holocaust, and the home of the slaves
            Corporate America, dancin' offbeat to the rhythm
            You really think this country, never sponsored terrorism?
            Human rights violations, we continue the saga
            El Savador and the contras in Nicaragua
            And on top of that, you still wanna take me to prison
            Just cause I won't trade humanity for patriotism

            Goosebumps anybody. Neil Young is a fucking pussy compated to technique

            Read Poverty of Philosophy its a spoken word manifesto

            From Harlem Streets

            Yeah.... Harlem streets stay flooded in white powder
            Like those mother fuckers runnin' away from the twin towers
            Gun shots rock the earth like a meteor shower
            Bowling For Columbine, fair, giving the media power
            Innocence devoured like a chicken spot snack box
            Government cocain cooked into ghetto crack rock
            Corrupt cops false testimony at your arraignment
            Check to check, constant struggle to make the payments
            Working your whole life wondering where the day went
            The subway stays pakced like a multi-cultural slave ship
            It's rush hour, 2:30 to 8, non stoppin'
            And people coming home after corporate share croppin
            And fuck flossin, mothers are trying to feed children
            But gentrification is kicking them out of their building
            A generation of babies born without health care
            Families homeless, thrown the fuck off of the welfare

            Yea he is good.

            An Exact Earth Pinprick
            "I hate quotes, tell me what you know" - Ralph Waldo Emerson

            by indefinitelee on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 03:26:57 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  will listen (0+ / 0-)

            as soon as I can find my headphones...don't want to disturb anyone around me at the moment with unexpected music!

        •  I'm 24 and listen to both (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          zigeunerweisen

          Lies, Torture and the American Way! (My Apologies to Superman)

          by Darksyde888 on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 03:50:23 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Oh that's so not true (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Creosote, wayward, Darksyde888

        As a 26-year old I can attest many of us not only know and respect Neil Young, but think his music is fucking amazing, and fires us up. My roommates and I listened to "Ohio" before going to march against the impending Iraq War in February 2003...

        I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day

        by eugene on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 02:53:54 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  High Schoolers for Neil (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        NearlyNormal

        Beginning with my 16 year old who knows his whole library and was among a pretty large crowd at the Concord Pavilion recently for his anti-war tour.

      •  I LOVE HIM..... (0+ / 0-)

        That seriously kicks ass that you listen to Immortal Technique.

        Listening to his music gets my blood pumping, that's for sure.

      •  I have a 22 year old friend who (0+ / 0-)

        is fanatical about Neil Young.  She downloaded his new album right away and tried to make all her friends listen to it.  I'm 29, and I looked forward to it for weeks before he released it.

        "Leave the gun ... take the cannoli." -8.38, -7.69

        by Balam on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 05:34:19 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Protest music would be great (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      tryptamine, Carnacki, NearlyNormal

      But even indirectly political youth entertainment is, IMHO, one of the big missing ingredients that existed in the 60s and doesn't today.

      yes, yes.  There's no draft.  (a statement brimming with implication that the youth anti-war movement was merely to save their hides.  Tell that to the young women who marched.)

      But there's also no Beatles.  I diaried about this long ago, and I still believe it.

      Don't underestimate the power of the Beatles, Stones Hendrix experience.  It's what made the party FUN.

    •  I dunno. Green Day does a pretty good job I (4+ / 0-)
      would think.

      Or April 29, 1992.

      Or Anything Ani di Franco or Billy Bragg or Chuck D have ever penned.

      Songs as good as anything CSNY ever put up.

      I know folks aren't singing about the Age of Aquarius anymore, an' probably the old farts from Woodstock don't "get" new music too well, but that doesn't mean it isn't out there.

      It just means Neil isn't listening particularly hard.

      Freedom is merely privilege extended unless enjoyed by one and all -9.50, -5.74

      by redstar on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 02:23:56 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Sleater-Kinney (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      eugene

      The Woods

      Best fucking album of the last year or two

      "If destruction be our lot, we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen, we must live through all time, or die by suicide." Abe Lincoln

      by faithfull on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 02:26:40 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  and their earlier album 'One Beat' is (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        faithfull

        solid as well.  With that album, they established themselves as one of the first bands with the guts to step up and protest Bu$hCo's response to 9/11, loss of civil liberties, etc.

        •  absolutely (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          suburi

          One Beat might even have a more political slant than The Woods.

          Both are excellent!

          "If destruction be our lot, we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen, we must live through all time, or die by suicide." Abe Lincoln

          by faithfull on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 03:28:19 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  There is plenty of that... (3+ / 0-)
      Off the top of my head the following artists have done something recently:

      - Green Day
      - System of a Down
      - Eminem
      - Incubus
      - probably a whole lot more but I now need more coffee to function.

      Pre-order unConventional, the official photo documentary of YearlyKos 2006!

      by Raven Brooks on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 02:29:55 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Oh, Beastie Boys too (nt) (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        zigeunerweisen

        Pre-order unConventional, the official photo documentary of YearlyKos 2006!

        by Raven Brooks on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 02:30:42 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  And even the Dixie Chicks (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        zigeunerweisen

        Pre-order unConventional, the official photo documentary of YearlyKos 2006!

        by Raven Brooks on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 02:31:03 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  The other thing about protest music.... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Magnifico

          the Dixie Chicks made a comment about Bush, in another country, off hand.  They were banned from radio stations and rallies were held against them.  They're still not back to where they were before that mess.  Speaking out means problems in the artistic world too.  Same as what we're talking about upthread.

          what should the iraq war memorial look like? how big should it be? - lipris

          by ThaliaR on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 03:05:46 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  well.. (0+ / 0-)

            Let's be honest, the country music demographic tends to be a lot more conservative that the pop, rock, or hiphop demographic. It's common knowledge that Bush has high numbers among country consumers, so clearly, they were nipping at the hand that feeds them. Then again, they had no reason to expect that the comment would get so much attention.

            But, on the other hand, if some rapper--let's say Pharell Williams, who just put a new record out--ripped Bush a new one, I doubt if it would hurt his record sales one bit. Kanye West?

    •  Ted Leo's 'Loyal to My Sorrowful Country' is one (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      zigeunerweisen

      But I'd add that airplay isn't terribly important anymore, most young people get their music from the internet (myspace)/word of mouth these days.

      And, I'd echo redstar: Green Day's American Idiot album was all protest, and its played all the time.

    •  more than you think (6+ / 0-)

      There have been a couple of diaries over the last year or so asking poeple to name current protest songs, and plenty of songs are listed.
      My wife is the "old lady" volunteer on a college radio station and as a consequence I get exposed to a ton of new music.
      The fact is that there have been some potent protest songs, from Pearl Jam, Micheal Franti, Ani Difranco, and many many others, but unless you have a college station nearby, or listen to web radio, you will never hear any of it. Radio stations are even more cowardly now then back in my day, and I've been an oustspoken critic of radio for a long time.
      The songs are out there, you just have to look a lot harder to find them.

    •  Don't buy it? (5+ / 0-)

      I mean come on.  You mentioned Black Eyed Peas.  What about Kanye West (who attracted 60,000 people to Grant Park on Saturday and got a rabidly positive reaction for his anti-Bush/GOP song "Crack Music")?  What about the Dixie Chicks?  What about Bruce Springsteen, whose last two albums have basically been protest albums?  And someone already mentioned Sleater-Kinney.  There's also that guy who does that "We Can't Make it Here" song.

      I think Neil Young is just playing into his generational masturbation.

      Read James Loewen's "Sundown Towns"!

      by ChicagoDem on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 02:37:21 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Someone brought this up (0+ / 0-)

      in another one of these threads.

      A few posts down, someone complained that rebelliousness has been turned into just another way to brand things.

      We can't have it both ways, unfortunately.  As soon as a band that writes protest songs (e.g. Green Day) becomes "mainstream", they simultaneously get tagged sell-outs.

      Not to mention, as someone entrenched in my own musical subculture, we have to recognize that the songs spring from - and become popular because of - the sentiments of the artists and audience.  In other words, the kids have to like (and agree with, in the case of protest songs) what the song has to say before they will be willing to really listen to what the song has to say.

      "The love of liberty is the love of others; the love of power is the love of ourselves." - William Hazlitt

      by tryptamine on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 02:43:27 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  And who can forget Rage Against the Machine (0+ / 0-)

      They aren't exactly current right now but they were pretty much the protest band in the 90's and have inspired at a very fundamental level a lot of the artists popular today.

      Pre-order unConventional, the official photo documentary of YearlyKos 2006!

      by Raven Brooks on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 02:50:59 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yeah, but fuck Zach (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        wayward, redstar

        He spent his time "Raging" against Clinton, supporting Nader, and then fading away once Bush got into office.  AND he was one of those corporate whores who jumped right onto the backs of Napster.  Not exactly a progressive record, no matter how much he postures...

        Read James Loewen's "Sundown Towns"!

        by ChicagoDem on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 02:55:05 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Mr. Lif - Home of the Brave (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        jorndorff

        It's a few years old, but it's just about as relevant as anything else you could name.

        •  Protest music (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Creosote

          okay seriously, when Neil Young says something like this i'll give him a little respect
          Immortal Technique - The Cause of Death

          You better watch what the fuck flies outta ya mouth
          Or I'ma hijack a plane and fly it into your house
          Burn your apartment with your family tied to the couch
          And slit your throat, so when you scream, only blood comes out
          I doubt that there could ever be...a more wicked MC
          'Cuz AIDs infested child molesters aren't sicker than me
          I see the world for what it is, beyond the white and the black
          The way the government downplays historical facts
          'Cuz the United States sponsored the rise of the 3rd Reich
          Just like the CIA trained terrorists how to fight
          Build bombs and sneak box cutters onto a flight
          When I was a child, the Devil himself bought me a mic
          But I refused the offer, 'cuz God sent me to strike
          With skills unused like fallopian tubes on a dyke
          My words'll expose George Bush and Bin Laden
          As two separate parts of the same seven headed dragon
          And you can't fathom the truth, so you don't hear me
          You think illuminati's just a fuckin conspiracy theory?
          That's why Conservative racists are all runnin' shit
          And your phone is tapped by the Federal Government
          So I'm jammin' frequencies in ya brain when you speak to me
          Technique will rip a rapper to pieces indecently
          Pack weapons illegally, because I'm never hesitant
          Sniper scoping a commission controllin the president

          An Exact Earth Pinprick
          "I hate quotes, tell me what you know" - Ralph Waldo Emerson

          by indefinitelee on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 03:37:54 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Where Is The Love (0+ / 0-)

      Where I live, Black Eyed Peas' "Where Is the Love" got TONS of airplay. Indeed, I first became familiar with it because I heard it on the radio ... just like in the olden days. Indeed, it was so popular that it made the top 10 on the Billboard singles chart, and it appears on Volume 14 (US version) of that bastion of teenybopper mainstream music, Now That's What I Call Music!

  •  IMHO (7+ / 0-)
    For those baby-boomers who complain about the state of today's youth, maybe they should remember who created this environment.

    Baby Boomers: You've made your bed. Don't complain now that you have to sleep in it.

  •  Youth are always apathetic (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Meteor Blades, rstnfld

    Today's youth are fairly apathetic and their voter participation rate (not absolute numbers, but percentage of youth who vote) is pretty low compared to all other age groups.

    HOWEVER, this is pretty much the same as it ever was.  Most Boomers weren't very politically active in their youth either - contrary to their own misty-eyed memories of their aggrandized past.  Were there more campus protests back then - sure, but (a) it wasn't a uniform and nonstop as Hollywood makes it seem and (b) there was a bloody quagmire war going on that involved a DRAFT.

    It wasn't leadership that got youth involved.(contrary to myth and Joe Lieberman's memories, most white youth weren't involved in the civil rights movement.) No sir, it was prospect of getting drafted and getting their asses shot off that got them involved - and even then it was fairly late in the game that was Vietnam.  (There's a reason why the Summer of Love only lasted a summer.)

    The Youth of Today - no more apathetic than their parents were!

    "Power concedes nothing without a demand; it never has and it never will." - Frederick Douglass

    by goblue72 on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 02:13:46 PM PDT

    •  There were protests BEFORE the Iraq War... (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      wu ming, Creosote, SFJen, Magnifico

      ...that were BIGGER than the protests until years into the Vietnam thing.

      "If destruction be our lot, we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen, we must live through all time, or die by suicide." Abe Lincoln

      by faithfull on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 02:25:52 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I disagree, youth are probably less apathetic (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Creosote, mvr, ThaliaR, zigeunerweisen

      Are they organizing mass protests?  No, but protesting like that is so 1960.  What they are doing is organizing this thing we all participate in called the netroots.  The youth are the ones that have applied technology to politics.

      If you look at some of the most influential people in the blogosphere most of them aren't folks who are greying, they are in their 20's & 30's and I'd argue that what we are doing here is infinitely more effective and has more reach than staging a protest on a campus ever did.

      Pre-order unConventional, the official photo documentary of YearlyKos 2006!

      by Raven Brooks on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 02:36:09 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  not really (0+ / 0-)

        (a) the netroots hasn't really whether it will be truly successful or influential.  its at the same stage that the "Interwebs" was at around 1999 - lots of hype, but too soon to tell what is going to stick

        and

        (b) the campus and other protests (such as civil rights marches) WERE effective in their time.  they also created a lot of hype.

        i know every generation likes to think of itself as infinitely more awesome than its predecessors.  but it just ain't true.

        "Power concedes nothing without a demand; it never has and it never will." - Frederick Douglass

        by goblue72 on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 03:00:02 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  This isn't about a generation pissing contest... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          SeekCa

          I'm just being honest.  And the netroots has already had several notable successes - Markos has written about several of them.

          I could list quite a few aside from helping candidates, like the fact that we've created a space where our elected leaders feel they need to communicate with us.  That sure as hell isn't going to happen by rushing the streets.  It may make the news, but sites like DailyKos have led to much better dialogs.

          The big immigration protests made headlines, but who is talking about it now?  You just can't sustain that every day.  With this you can keep it up day after day.

          Pre-order unConventional, the official photo documentary of YearlyKos 2006!

          by Raven Brooks on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 03:06:30 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  (a) you need both (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Meteor Blades

            no one would have paid as much attention to the pro-immigrant side of the equation but for those huge protests, no matter how many pixels are a blog were burned for it.  

            go read Armando's diary - it all about how the real change is occuring on the ground, from people DOING things, not writing about them.

            and (b) my point was that each generation has done its part, but that in each generation those "doing" their part are far outnumbered by those who are apathetic.  and that, generally speaking, political engagement increases with age.  its why politicians still chase the senior citizen vote - because seniors vote at a far greater rate than young people.

            My point remains - Young People - No More Apathetic Than Their Parents!

            "Power concedes nothing without a demand; it never has and it never will." - Frederick Douglass

            by goblue72 on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 03:13:58 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  youth full of fire (5+ / 0-)

    ain't got nowhere to go

    I have to simultaneously agree and disagree with thereisnospoon's points.

    I can only go by the people that I know. And I know far more people who do not even consider political awareness and activism than I do those who want to be active and cannot due to  financial constraints.

    I think the idea that we, the youts, can't protest because things are too hard on us is somehow circular reasoning. So, if we were all comfy with great high paying jobs and no debt we would be storming the gates?
    No. The hardships faced by youth are exactly what is supposed to breed the dissatisfaction that results in an opposition movement.

    This diary pisses me off.
    Thereisnospoon is right though. Why aren't I out in the street? I am just keeping my head down and not rocking the boat. and that pisses me the fuck off. Why the fuck are we so scared?
    I don't know anyone who is happy with their situation and I don't know anyone who is willing to risk anything to change it.

    Maybe it just has not gotten bad enough. My sense is that we do not feel like we will get any return on our outrage. Everyone I talk to who is not aware of current events simply discounts it by saying, 'well government always screws you, so why even bother?'

    Everyone who is aware is too scared because they know all too well what they are up against.

    An Exact Earth Pinprick
    "I hate quotes, tell me what you know" - Ralph Waldo Emerson

    by indefinitelee on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 02:14:40 PM PDT

  •  Alright kids (0+ / 0-)

    Just for a laugh, see if you can appreciate this.
    http://www.youtube.com/...

    Karl (Rove) is a shameless bastard. Small wonder his mother killed herself. -Larry Johnson

    by McGirk on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 02:14:45 PM PDT

  •  My turn to be an asshole for a moment (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Pondite, Positronicus

    I'll be one of those 10 with a GPA higher than 3.5 GPA taking your job away. :P

    Deny My Freedom
    "Inconvenient truths do not go away just because they are not seen." -Al Gore

    by PsiFighter37 on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 02:22:49 PM PDT

  •  the more things change... (8+ / 0-)

    Don't get too upset at some of us older types getting on you younger ones for being lazy, apathetic etc. Thats what we were labelled with when we were young, and what our parents were labelled with when they were young and what, well, you get the idea.
    Parents have been complaining that their kids were worthless, good for nothing, lazy bums probably since the Og and Mog thought their son Grug spent too much time chasing the girls and not enough time knapping flints into arrowheads.
    I'm not convinced street protests do a damn thing these days. Back in the day they were different and unexpected, they were shocking, and they did eventually make a difference.
    Now they are considered old hat and barely worth a mention in the news if less than a million people show up.
    Plus, you are dead right about this being a different world than the 60's and 70's as far as the consequences faced by protesters.
    I sincerely doubt that the younger generation today is any more apathetic, lazy or unconcerned than we were at the same age, and I also doubt many of our generation would have been nearly so willing to take part in some of those rallys if we weren't facing getting drafted into Vietnam.
    I do wish I heard more young voices on this site, and I do wish the numbers of young people voting was higher, but I do not think the younger generation is deserving of some of the critcism it has recieved.

  •  Leadership (8+ / 0-)

    I made this comment before on another youth activism thread, but let me repeat it here.

    I think another big difference lies in the examples that the youth of the 60's had versus today. And I don't think that it was the political leadership that was critical. Rather, I would point to the actions of 4 Greensboro, NC college students on Feb. 1, 1960 that set the tone for the rest of the decade. When they decided to sit at a Woolworth lunch counter until they were served, in clear violation of Jim Crow, they showed how individuals could make a difference. To engage in a sit-in, to take direct, non-violent action, and make a difference was very empowering. Its impact was immediate and unmediated, unlike, say, voting, organizing, writing letters, calling Congressmen, etc. It inspired people to believe that individuals, and not just large, impersonal organizations, could make a difference.

    Whether such opportunities exist today is hard to say. The establishmnt basically ignores protests, except when they turn violent, which is in any case self-defeating. Cindy Sheehan's protet had some of the quality of the sit-ins: direct, individual, non-violent action. How that might be repeated by other, however, is a question I cannot answer.

  •  Best (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    eugene, TiaRachel, SFJen, Magnifico, elie

    diary ever! I've actually had baby boomers stop and ask me why I'm not protesting the war, as if I'm just some lazy college kid. The fact is that it is their war and their corporate culture. As the New Right was being lifted into power on the shoulders of the baby boomer generation, I was busy learning the alphabet and watching Sesame Street. Sorry, my bad.

  •  What you say does have a component (0+ / 0-)

    of truth to it. But a military draft has a way of making kids start thinking real serious like about any given war and whether it's worth fighting or needs to be stopped.

    If there's a draft, folks'll start hitting the streets again.

    We're all brave progressives here!  In fact, let me just pull out the real names of some Kossacks here....

    BTW, you'll find my name at the bottom of this comment. Holler if you want my middle name too.

    -6.88/-5.64 * You know what's happening. Fight it.

    by John West on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 02:27:08 PM PDT

  •  I'm not letting the kids off the hook that easily (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    high uintas, vcmvo2, Overseas

    No way.

    It is very true that the Internet age and the Economy make protesting, sit-ins, etc., very difficult, maybe impossible.  I don't blame anyone for not putting their name and image in a position where their career might suffer.

    If thereisnospoon allows his identity to be public, I admire his courage.

    But there's no excuse for not showing up to vote.  Young people have low turnout numbers...why?

    Also, the same information infrastructure that makes those background checks so dangerous also enable young voters to learn about the issues without being seen at a teach-in or a rally.  

    OK, so we can't expect big street protests from today's youth.  But it is not to much to ask that they show up for the actual vote.

    •  I think he spoke to the low turnout numbers. (7+ / 0-)

      First, they're not that low.

      Second,

      "Democrats aren't offering ideological vision for the future that's exciting to young people."

      Maybe when they get around to growing a spine outside of election year, you might see some movement. Meantime, don't blame bored folks from not being as interested as you would like in watching a boring movie.

      Freedom is merely privilege extended unless enjoyed by one and all -9.50, -5.74

      by redstar on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 02:35:54 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  It's often the case (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      TiaRachel, redstar

      that the choice on election day is between a corporatist Republican and corporatist Democrat. Either way you wind up slaving your life away in a cube. Why should they vote?

    •  Several reasons (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      tryptamine, TiaRachel, zigeunerweisen
      1. Attending college makes voting difficult.
      1. Young people have to remember to get registered, while older voters do not.
      1. A young person's life is usually less stable and settled than an older voter's. Young people tend to vote less often because they have less at stake.
      1. Voting, like most other activities, becomes a habit. when you're just starting out, you do it maybe once every few years, for the big ones. As the years go on, it becomes a ritual, like paying taxes and trading in for a new car.
      1. Try visiting a polling place as a young voter. I've only done it twice, and both times I received so much shit that the older people next to me in line did not that i now vote entirely by absentee ballot.
    •  why lower turnout? (8+ / 0-)
      1. many aren't registered, because they would be first-time voters. in addition,
      1. due to the piss-poor performance of the national democratic party, and a mass media that perpetually bleats "they're all bastards, no difference between them," those who do register tend to be independent or decline to state. as a result,
      1. they aren't on the democratic party voter rolls, and so they don't get contacted in GOTV drives.
      1. even if they did register dem and got on those voter rolls, the chance is likely that because of college or transient temping job opportunities, they've moved since the last election, and so the old contact info is useless, and they don't get caught in a GOTV net.
      1. due to the peripatetic nature of student life, young voters are less liklely to be settled and buying local papers, etc., and if they are voting, are often absentee voters somewhere else, often in another state. the connection and base-level political awareness of local candidates and issues that older voters use to form opinions and get motivated to vote are not there, and so this tends to depress self-motivated turnout except in big nationalized elections like 2004.
      1. in addition to all this, there have been significant and sustained voter suppression campaigns by the right, especially in presidential election years, that do things like shred new registrations, tell kids that they cannot vote in a college town if they're not from there, make sure that college precincts are understaffed with voting machines, and have their votes challenged by hedging campaigns. thius depresses the vote further.
      1. finally, the democratic party, in an attempt to woo the oh-so precious white moderate middle-aged voter or retirees, tends to either ignore or active speak out against the sort of idealistic left issues that would bring younger voters to the polls, who have already been poisoned with a nasty one-two combo of "they're all bastards" memes supported by DINOs attempting to loudly triangulate by spouting republican talking points (the good dems and non-senators rarely get any media time, so they don't exist in the popular consciousness). all this tends to depress the youth vote, especially the left youth vote, and makes the greens' smarter use of rhetoric that much more effective (dean and kucinich undercut the greens significantly in '04 with their respect of youth and call for idealism, and the vote #s reflect it; their strength is an indicator of sucky dem strategy).

      as such, a smart dem response to increase the youth dem vote is to:

      1. get serious about building a serious and constantly updated voter database and aggressive voter registration drive, so that young voters don'tr slip through the cracks.
      1. along those lines, dems should champion same-day registration laws like in wisconsin.
      1. get serious about defending voting rights and fighting against voter suppression efforts, for youth as well as minority voters.
      1. make idealism and bold stances even when you can't win them a major part of the party's media strategy, both to inspire young voters and to work against the meme tht "they're all bastards."
      1. start thinking about what issues will motivate the youth that fit into the party's base politics anyway, and then sell them as one would to any other legitimate demographic. free higher education, universal health care, housing/rent issues, birth control/abortion rights, and opposition to war would be easy starters.

      crimson gates reek with meat and wine/while on the streets, bones of the frozen dead -du fu (712-770)

      by wu ming on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 02:48:34 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  addendum: (7+ / 0-)

        i think it is important not to discount decades of learned helplessness. if you're under 30, you have never seen a successful left-wing protest movement in this country, you have never seen a sucessful antiwar movement (in fact, if you haven't been to an antiwar protest, and don't live in a major protest-center city, you may never have seen one at all, even though the 2002 and 2003 marches were bigger than the vietnam-era ones), and your knowledge of history from school, the history channel and pop culture does not include the whole 20th century legacy of labor, civil rights and democracy movements beyond a quick nod to martin luther king's "i have a dream" speech, which magically ended racism in the 60s.

        in short, you have been carefully taught that there is nothing that you can do, and that protest is something that those hippies (snicker, snicker) did.

        the fact that young people still marched against the WTO, the war, and the RNC in NYC is impressive, given the degree to which they have been surrounded with conditioning memes of "there is no alternative." contrast that to the boomers who were raised in the 50s and 60s to believe that they could change and save the world. i credit whatever spirit of resistance that remains to oral history within families and liberal communities, that tells a different story to kids than they got on TV or in school. the internet, as a cross-generational community, is a huge potential resource for spreading that lefty oral history of this country to those who would never have known about it otherwise.

        crimson gates reek with meat and wine/while on the streets, bones of the frozen dead -du fu (712-770)

        by wu ming on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 03:07:52 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  not that I personally care, but... (6+ / 0-)

        The Democrats have this unfortunate "let's protect the children" streak in them that does a great job of offending the youth of the day. Bill Clinton broke through it, for example, just by being on Arsenio Hall, let alone playing the sax.

        A lot of it has to do with feeble attempts to regulate pop culture. Criticize me if you want, but here is where the Dems lose early, and lose often.

        1. Tipper Gore in the 1980s, upset over Prince, goes on a censorship campaign to put the parental advisory sticker on music. Let's regulate pop culture to protect the children from it.
        1. Hillary Clinton and the v-chip.
        1. The numerous periodic need to bitch and whine about violence and sex in video games and the need to regulate them (Mortal Kombat and Doom in the early 1990s, the simulated sex thing from Grand Theft Auto more recently)
        1. Myspace paranoia

        THAT is the crap that turns people off. Frankly, I recognize this stuff as grandstanding. But seriously, that whole "let's censor pop culture to protect the children from it" is incredibly phony, and insulting the intelligence of the youth. The VAST MAJORITY of regular Doom gamers back in the day have not gone on violent shooting rampages, as was predicted by the pop culture warriors at that time.

        The big problem is that a lot of it IS grandstanding, and its at the expense of the youth in order to score points with the overprotective parenting crowd and possibly social conservatives. The youth can see through it, but at the same time, they don't like being treated as kids and being beaten up as strawmen.

        -----------------------------------

        For the record, I would have called out Bill Clinton for that Sista Souljah comment, but she was never popular anyhow. No one--and I grew up listening to hiphop--outside of the black activist community knew who she was until Clinton called her out.

        •  i take it you never listened to public enemy (0+ / 0-)

          i knew sista soulja from the intro to "by the time i get to arizona."

          but your point is well-taken. add in a defense of free speech and a shift from drug war to drug rehabilitation and decriminalization of pot, and i think we can make some progress. paging ben masel...

          crimson gates reek with meat and wine/while on the streets, bones of the frozen dead -du fu (712-770)

          by wu ming on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 08:08:52 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  I'll tell you where they are (10+ / 0-)

    Listening to satin's music on their Ipods, shooting up their reefers and touching each other in every un-Godly way imaginable.  

  •  Some very active Kids here. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    libnewsie, NearlyNormal

    -8.63 -7.28 He was carrying a skateboard on his back, a red rose in his fist, and the war.

    by OneCrankyDom on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 02:31:47 PM PDT

  •  in my house district meeting (6+ / 0-)

    this weekened, I had to listen to the usual platitudes about how young people aren't involved and don't vote.  Hello, sitting right here!  The guy that just set up an email list for the HD, because the rest of you were too incompetent to notify me of when these damn meetings take place.  &lt/rant>

  •  Re leadership (8+ / 0-)

    I went to the streets (and to jail) inspired by  Martin Luther King, Mario Savio and Ghandi.  Not for no politician, no way.  

    My children, in their 30's, have BA's, poor-paying jobs, watch the Daily Show, voted for Kerry, listen to Democracy Now, and consider peace marches quaint outings their mom does with her friends.  They just aren't as worried as I am.  And if they were, they are not convinced they can affect change.  

  •  I very much agree (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    tryptamine, TiaRachel

    with this diary.  I know quite a few youth of voting age who are quite aware of current events and don't like what's going on one bit.

    However, let me also point out that I know quite a few kids who are under 18 and know EVEN MORE about current events and are looking forward to that day when they become "of age" - not to drink, but to vote.  I believe there's a liberal/progressive wave of kids at that age that we're all overlooking.  

    End the US occupation of Iraq now!

    by smugbug on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 02:37:23 PM PDT

  •  RE America Idol ... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    WisVoter, Friend of the court

    Another item ... if you're willing to pay for it, one can vote multiple times, I believe -- sort of like Diebold executives.  Thus, how many of those 63 million votes were an addict calling 100 times?

    4 July 2006, Independence Day ... Day 1757, A count worth keeping? Or, Osama Bin Forgotten?

    by besieged by bush on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 02:38:24 PM PDT

  •  Nice straw-man... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    3goldens

    ...since I haven't seen diaries by boomers attacking the youth, but have seen more than a enough diaries by youth attacking boomers.

    Teacher's Lounge opens each Saturday, sometime between 10am and 12 noon EST

    by rserven on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 02:43:27 PM PDT

  •  Baby Boomer Bullshit (5+ / 0-)

    I used to hear this same Baby Boomer bullshit in the 1980s when my friends and I were marching in the face of antiabortion terrorists, racing through the streets of Manhattan recruiting other teenagers to stop Star Wars, and meeting in church basements housing Contra War refugees. We used to hear nothing but chants of "apathy" from Baby Boomers, especially the media that had marketed them, and to them, for our entire lives. Even then in the 1980s we knew that highschool and college students were much more active across America than in the 1960s, from statistics on numbers of marches, sizes of marches, voting records. But we were the "apathetic" ones, though we were doing the hard work of keeping the Civil Rights Revolution gains some Baby Boomers had won.

    As years went by and I understood the "60s" media phenomenon more, including actually living in the Haight Ashbury media vulture gulch, I understood the phenomenon completely. The few heroic Boomers who did break rules to speak out against the 1960s corporate death machine, to join forces with nonrich/nonwhite/nonmales, were so photogenic by contrast that they caught the camera eye for years, defining a generation in spite of its truth. Boomers think they invented everything, especially anything fun, and they all think they're all in some kind of club together. Their ego is much more powerful than their memory, especially when there's any kind of "generation gap" competition available. They hated their parents as much as they now hate their children, and everything they did was the first and the best.

    And of course the media repeats that delusion to them. They sold so many Nike sneakers to the tune of the Beatles' "Revolution" that Boomers think running, even running in place, changes the world. Of course it does, into a global sweatshop, just like it was before the actual leaders among them hit "pause" for a decade or so.

    But kids today got no respect for that game. The whole "generation" scheme that defines the Boomers was undone by Boomers "redefining marriage" and childbearing, smearing generational waves into a messy tide. Kids today are more subversive and less confrontational. They're less likely to voluteer for Iraq than Boomers did for Vietnam (even Boomers' parents were less likely to volunteer for WWII). I won't flip the Baby Boomer trick of pretending to have these kids all figured out. But it's a safe bet that whatever the Boomer media says is wrong. The way that bullshit usually is.

    "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

    by DocGonzo on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 02:47:06 PM PDT

    •  Boomer media? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Caldonia, NearlyNormal

      You jest.

      Teacher's Lounge opens each Saturday, sometime between 10am and 12 noon EST

      by rserven on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 02:50:55 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yeah, all the crap about us as a generation (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        rserven

        For a long time, we were youth, then we were middle aged, now the boomer press id all about us appraoching 60. Very little of what has been said about the boomers in the media applies to me

      •  What, Me Worry? (0+ / 0-)

        You look at all the execs in the corporate media, and tell me how many were born before 1944 and after 1965. Then tell me how much budget and personnel they control compared to those in the Baby Boom generation.

        Then look at the mass media and tell me when and how its form and content have changed to reflect the demographics of its consumers.

        Then tell me what's so funny about all that.

        "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

        by DocGonzo on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 09:29:57 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  What's funny is that you think... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Caldonia

          ...that boomers control the media and not the people from the previous generation, who still control everything through their current sockpuppets.

          And that you seem to think that boomers are a single entity.

          Teacher's Lounge opens each Saturday, sometime between 10am and 12 noon EST

          by rserven on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 09:39:52 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Speaking of the Good Doctor... (0+ / 0-)

      Here's an excerpt from an interview he gave to High Times magazine:

      Does this apply to the dictum that appears in Kingdom of Fear: "All that it takes for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing"? Do the Lisl Auman case and your interest in protecting the Fourth Amendment lie in that sentiment?

      Well, my thinking is that’s where all of our interest lies. Bobby Kennedy used it the first time I noticed it. It’s a universal sentiment. How the shit did I get myself involved in all this? To say, "For evil to prevail" sounds like a distant possibility. It’s not going to happen right away—but no! It’s happening right now in this fucking savage year. Evil is triumphing. It’s right in front of us and it’s on us as individuals personally and collectively. It’s not going to be down the line. You know, civil rights aren’t just for Negroes. Oh, shit, where did that come from? Bobby Kennedy said that.

      That’s what Kingdom of Fear was based on. It all came true much faster than I thought it was going to. It started off as a benign kind of memoir, and in a very short period of time, events like politics... That’s us. That’s you and me fighting over there, paying for those bombs. I guess I’m a little embarrassed of my generation as the first one in a long time in America, maybe forever, to leave the world, the country, the nation, in worse shape than when we inherited it. (Emphasis Added)

      Source: Higgins, Matt. "The Gonzo King: An Interview with Hunter S. Thompson." High Times. September 2, 2003.

      Lies, Torture and the American Way! (My Apologies to Superman)

      by Darksyde888 on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 03:20:21 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  My peeps were more global (0+ / 0-)

      In high school it was about South Africa and apartied and starving people in Africa.  In college we did a lot with Amnesty Intl.  We actually saved some peoples lives by faxing China.  

      www.tasinifornewyork.org

      by naufragus on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 03:40:32 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  The same comment I've made elsewhere ... (3+ / 0-)

      ...you have some good points, but I don't stereotype your generation, so please don't stereotype mine.
      I was deeply involved in the 1980s as well as that 1960s and I never "called out" the "younger generation."

      But I'd like to see some of those stats that back up this: Even then in the 1980s we knew that highschool and college students were much more active across America than in the 1960s, from statistics on numbers of marches, sizes of marches, voting records.

      •  Boomer Confidence (0+ / 0-)

        Baby Boomers are also well known for thinking that any criticism of their generation is perforce a criticism of each of them individually. Demographics is the system of describing an entire generation, so let's not call my description of these 3 generations "stereotypes", when it's the same kind of generational analysis that's so popular coming from the younger generation member who wrote this diary. Your comment fits into the general pattern across generations that people accept their grandchildren more than they do their children.

        We've discussed this in the past, and apparently haven't changed our opinions.

        I'll see if I can dig up the stats we had in our organizations 20 years ago when we had to battle the "apathy" label that the Baby Boomers stuck on us. Meanwhile, how about you show me some stats that more young people demonstrated publicly in the 1960s than did in the 1980s. Since you're so certain.

        "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

        by DocGonzo on Wed Aug 09, 2006 at 11:58:48 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I agree, completely, utterly, wholely! (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Neutron, Creosote, TiaRachel, MacheteJames

    Thank you for this diary.

    As a 25 year old in a PhD program, at least I live like a graduate student for a reason.  I look at my other friends, who live like graduate students, but have actual jobs.  

    Thank you thank you thank you.

    what should the iraq war memorial look like? how big should it be? - lipris

    by ThaliaR on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 02:49:32 PM PDT

  •  I respectfully disagree (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    libnewsie

    and offer a different perspective from the behavioral sciences.

    When you want to know how people are going to behave, examine the contingencies that directly affect them.

    We do not have the draft, therefore we do not have young people marching in the streets and protesting the fact that they will soon be drafted to be cannonfodder in a distant war.

    Simple.

    •  Protest does not have to be in the streets... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Meteor Blades

      to be effective.

      Pre-order unConventional, the official photo documentary of YearlyKos 2006!

      by Raven Brooks on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 02:52:43 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  street protests are almost irrelevant anyway. (7+ / 0-)

      exception, something like the immigration marches that catches the lapdog medias sensationalism trigger.

      -C.

      •  I'd agree with that... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        TiaRachel

        protest is all about reaching people, that stuff gets tuned out and is a waste of resources.  You can be a lot more effective with fewer resources.

        Pre-order unConventional, the official photo documentary of YearlyKos 2006!

        by Raven Brooks on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 02:57:23 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Look, it is not like (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        mediaprisoner

        everybody was in the streets in the '60's. The media gave it lots of attention. Unlike today. Most people thought they got too much attention and that they should just get their butts back in class.

        And there was the radical underbelly of the beast, Weathermen, SDS and every flavor of anarchists and plain old troublemakers stirring up shit at protests.

        They weren't the good old days. Don't get the idea that somehow the 60's were the best. Lots of us were just doing what we could to go to school, work and stay out of 'Nam.

        The great tragedy of Science, the slaying of a beautiful hypothesis by an ugly fact. T. H. Huxley

        by realalaskan on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 06:19:33 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  to further that idea... (0+ / 0-)

      Boomers, and those elder gen Xers don't have to worry about that either.

      They have to worry about paying the rent and other bills and pay for that out of control education for their children.

      The only cogent arguments out thee for the roots of the problem are a biased media, big government, oppressive taxes and lack of personal responsibility.

      There is no counter narrative where these vital institutions are a benefit to society, largely because Democrats have been working so hard to not lose any votes by chasing the Conservative Big Lies: Freetrade Cheap Labor, Small Government Gutting Social Investment, Tax Relief (for the rich) and Personal Responsibility Every Man For Himself.

      Keep in mind that those institutions that those Conservative stand opposed to the Big Lie, are what people are the results of a vote.

      If Republicans and Democrats are in agreement that regulation, government, and community and shred responsibility are bad things, then why bother pushing or using them?

      And please let's not just put this on the Boomers and Elder Gen Xers.

      I think that most Kossacks have bought into the Conservative Big Lies to a large degree, and that purchase has been priceless.

      This is the reason I am a Green. I have not been able to sacrifice my conscience and participate in a party that continues to exacerbate the problem.

      Ignore the base, hide our values, and chase the swing voter and we not only lose, but we fall farther behind.

      by k9disc on Tue Aug 08, 2006 at 03:21:10 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I live with a thoroughly (7+ / 0-)

    non-apathetic 24 year old, and I can tell you she's been busting her ass full time to get our candidate elected.  Today is the final push for the primary tomorrow and I don't expect to see her til the wee hours.  I'm proud of my kid.  I will say that her activism has ratcheted up several notches since I took her with me to YK.

    Best investment I ever made.  

  •  For the record, the voter turnout ... (6+ / 0-)

    ...for 18-24-year-olds was 52% in 1972, and 47% in 2004.

  •  Can't you vote more than once? (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    tryptamine, Tuba Les, khereva

    I'm really ignorant on the subject of american idol, but I was under the impression you could vote more than once.

    I think that would explain things, if true...

    Will you spend an hour on the ground for every 100 hours you spend fuming online?

    by dspivak on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 02:50:57 PM PDT

  •  Spoonless: (5+ / 0-)

    Being a love child of the sixties myself, I have often wondered waht happened to my generation and why all the love children seem to have moved on to more important things like wars.

    But I would seriously question whether Nixon, Johnson or Kennedy were the leaders you seem to think.  The love children despised Nixon, Johnson was hated for the war and Kennedy didn't last long enough to give us anything more than a very brief version of Camelot.

    But even Nixon was not as bad as Bush.  Bush is by far the worst.

    But as leaders go, Gore and Kerry and the Big Dog have not been that bad.  Certainly all are preferable to Reagan who was old enough to be of Nixon's generation.

    •  AMEN! (5+ / 0-)

      And, please, let's not forget AL GORE!  

      ~ Sign me, Another aging liberal democrat who is getting tired of all these gross overgeneralizations/oversimplifications (even well written ones, like this diary), of being lumped in with lazy middle aged Republican good-for-nothings and of being blamed for Reagan (remember: the OLDEST Boomers were ONLY 34 when he was elected; and the youngest were still too young to vote at all.)

      1-20-09 the darkness ends "Where cruelty exists, law does not." ~ Alberto Mora

      by noweasels on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 03:19:02 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Food for thought. (15+ / 0-)

    It's nice to see a series of diaries coming out addressing the problem of youth apathy. But I feel like there's something inherently hypocritical about calling on the younger generation to protest when the older one isn't doing anything either.

    I'm 17. I've gone to protests. I've phonebanked and canvassed. I go on kos and vent my frustrations. And there are plenty more like me. In any demographic there will be those who are interested in the future and dedicated to changing it.

    And there will also be those who simply don't care, who aren't watching, who aren't paying attention. Every generation has its idealists, and it also has far more members who just sit around on their asses and watch the world go by.

    It frustrates me that we treat young people as this magical, uber-disaffected group of people. I just don't see it. The standard youth complaints about voting are the same as the adult ones: "I didn't have time." "Democratics and Republicans are all the same." "My vote doesn't matter."

    They're all just excuses for apathy, but that isn't really the point. The point is that there are many, many young people who are interested in making waves but just don't see the means to do so.

    Back in February, I made this diary asking for advice on what I could do as a high school student--I honestly didn't know. I was hoping for all sorts of responses about energizing my fellow students or getting more involved in __. Instead, everyone just told me to work hard in school, stay off drugs, and learn karate.

    That's the message my generation is getting from all directions. Follow the rules. Do well in school. Be quiet, stick your ahead down, and get ahead. Go to a good college, get a good job, and enjoy your life. Fuck everyone else. You can't change things, and if you try, bad things might happen.

    And where's the counterpoint to that message? When politicians tell us we have the power to change things, they lose.

    And therein lies the answer to the problem of youth apathy. It's the same as adult apathy. We need to be inspired. As I said in another comment:

    We get inspired the same way everyone else does. We need candidates with vitality and passion to take on the establishment without any tip-toeing. Howard Dean got young people from all over the country to sell their bikes and save their lunch money because he gave us the sense that we could change things, that we would change things. But then the notion of "electability" shat on that idea, and young people stayed home because they got the impression they were choosing the lesser of two evils.

    What inspires us? Courage.

    Give us someone to march in the streets for, and we'll be there.

    "The arc of history is long, but it bends toward justice." --MLK

    by cheeselord on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 02:51:59 PM PDT

  •  well done my friend... as usual (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TiaRachel, cheeselord, SFJen, khereva

    I wrote a much less thought out, much more angry rant about this awhile back:

    ...and while you are sitting there patting yourselves on the back, you can convienently forget that our generation is paying for your flights of fancy and indulgences by being one of the first generations since industrialisation to have a lower standard of living.

    The accomplishments of your generation is only matched by the absolute arrogance and hubris over it's perceived status, and perennial victim status that rivals only christianity for the complete persectution complex addiction.

    You guys had the chance, gave it a show, and when the chips were down you blew it. Not only that, but you came up with terms like "Slacker" "Underachiver" for us, as well as a disdain and contempt for our generation and margainalization for anything we actually have accomplished or tried to accomplish.

    The family unit as we know it, is completely shattered, yet my generation on the whole, takes much more time and effort into family planning and ends up with stronger, longer lasting relationships.

    But do we stand around and crow about how hard we have things? How you can't find any good jobs because your generation shipped them off to other counties for a few bucks, how Hippies became yuppies interested in only in ME ME ME, Or how we don't have anything close to the same opportunities as your generation?
    nope.

    We just shake our head and listen to the boomers pat themselves on the back about how wonderful they are and how they are the be all, end all of everything.

    We have a lot more in common with the depression era generation then you.

    Everytime we try to accomplish something we are alternately laughed at and pitied, or held to some increasingly inaccurate and mythologized standard of boomer accomplishment.

    We are given a pat on the head, and told "That's ok, because you could never be as good as us anyway."

    Yet, time and again as our accomplshments are marginalized as trivial and inconsequential, still your generation snickers at what few escapes we have found that bring enjoyment, mainly because they cannot be understood.

    Well here's a hint, you aren't supposed to understand it, you aren't supposed to enjoy it.

    Your risk-takers and problem solvers have screwed the environment so much that you get skin cancer on the beach and pregnant women cannot eat fish without the mercury causing autism in their children.

    This is somehow laudable?

    get over yourself.

    Your generation continues to take up all of the oxygen in the room, and will continue to do so as time goes on, because you are both selfish, self centered and unable to accept a world where you are not the center of attention.

    And people wonder what my generation is so cynical about.

    -C.

  •  You can also vote multiple times on AI n/t (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Tuba Les, Buddha Hat
  •  There's a lot here I agree with and a little I (4+ / 0-)

    disagree with.

    To focus on points of disagreement for a bit:

    I think it is a mistake to use protest rallies as the mode of comparison. They are no longer the vehicle they used to be for getting dissent heard.  That "youth these days" don't attend them needs no greater explanation than that those of us who are no longer youth don't attend them, or don't attend them as often.  They are not, for most of us, the most effective way of using our time to protest.

    I also think that people tend to be less risk averse (or maybe they have less to lose) when they are young, so that some of the explanation for the alleged reduced political participation as stemming from prudence in the face of counter-incentives strikes me as overstating the case.

    Richard Nixon's leadership, such as it was, was not of the sort to positively inspire those who were young in his days of power.  He did inspire protests, but not by leading them.

    The disagreement noted, I think that today's young people deserve no more censure than today's old people. We the people as a group have not recently been very effective at blocking some really bad people from having their way with our country.  Part of what we are all grappling with is figuring out how to have the right sort of impact.

  •  Bay Area let the kids down, not the reverse (9+ / 0-)

    In the heart of the most famously progressive part of the United States, young people didn't let us down. We let them down-- by not getting behind the movement to stop the prison building boom, and put the money instead into much needed schools and activities for young people. This wonderful movement was the equivalent of what Boomers remembers as the "Clean for Gene" phenomenon (where college kids cleaned up to try to get Gene McCarthy on the Democratic ticket in 1968). In 2000, there was the Hip Hop movement in Berkeley and Oakland in Alameda County to spend on books, not jails. This movement was the most inspiring and enthusiastic action by young people that I'd seen in decades. They organized. They held concerts. They petitioned. They demonstrated. They did everything right and their anti-racist movement did not catch on among the many left-leaning liberals who could have helped to make a difference. Even when they lost-- and this was such a hard-fought fight-- every bit as bitter as losing the 2000 or 2004 presidential elections-- they seemed to say they would continue to fight on.  I've long felt it was the Boomers who let these kids down. The young people were doing the right thing, fighting back in their own interest, but they didn't get the support from Boomers they needed and deserved. They even were knocked down on a ballot measure.

    http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/...

    The New Youth Movement In California
    by Elizabeth Martinez
    Z magazine, May 2000

    Hip-Hop Vs. Lock-Up
    Youth Join The Battle To Slow California' S Juggernaut Of Juvenile Jail Building

    By David Hill
    http://www.aecf.org/...

    Members of the Youth Force Coalition protest the proposed "super
    jail" outside the Alameda County Administration Building.

    On May 17, 2001, Fela Thomas and dozens more Bay Area youth
    activists boarded two earlymorning flights out of San Francisco  International Airport and headed south to San Diego, where the  California Board of Corrections was slated to dole out millions  of federal and state grant dollars for the construction of  juvenile detention centers. For months, the activists—hip-hop  teens and twentysomethings from some of Oakland's poorest  neighborhoods—had been trying to stop Alameda County from  building a massive new 540-bed "super jail" for kids in the suburban city of Dublin, about an hour's drive from Oakland.
    Under the rallying cry of "Books Not Bars, Schools Not Jails,"  they had disrupted meetings, held marches and demonstrations,  built alliances, and pressured politicians to rethink the size  of the detention center.

    Now, at a meeting that had been hastily moved from
    Sacramento—apparently to make it harder for them to attend—the protesters stood in the back of the room holding placards ("Educate, Don't Incarcerate!") and raising clenched fists in the air. When the time came for public comment, several of them, including Thomas, a 23-year-old Oakland resident, stood before the 12-member board and demanded that it rescind a $2.3 million
    grant earmarked for Alameda County's proposed juvenile hall.

    "I told them they needed to get their priorities straight,"
    Thomas recalls, "that the way they were running their game wasn't working and was hurtful and destructive to communities of color, and young people in particular."

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy....--ML King Jr., "Beyond Vietnam"

    by skywriter on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 02:56:19 PM PDT

  •  amazing (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Darksyde888

    If you don't have a 3.5 GPA, you can kiss the good jobs good bye.

    Further, we can thank the baby- boomers for a rise in AIDS, the Iraq war ( yes, you voted for it ), the rise in neo- conservatism, the anti- gay backlash.

    But most importantly George Bush.

    I'm glad someone put that generation in its place, their drugs, diseases, and bad presidents are enough to make anyone sick.

    Disobedience to Tyrants is obedience to God

    by HomegrownDem on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 02:56:47 PM PDT

  •  When I was young... (9+ / 0-)
    We used to trudge hundreds of miles through snow and sleet whenever we got politically active.  Today's youth, with global warming, have it so easy!

    Let justice reign though the heavens tremble

    by Viceroy on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 03:00:10 PM PDT

  •  If You Liked Strapped... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    tryptamine, zigeunerweisen

    Also check out Generation Debt by Anya Kamenetz.  She does an excellent job of detailing all the new hurdles our generation has to deal with, including more student loans vs. student grants, fewer job protections, escalating health care costs, and a breakdown in parental responsibility.

  •  Right the fuck on! (nt) (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    va dare

    Lies, Torture and the American Way! (My Apologies to Superman)

    by Darksyde888 on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 03:01:55 PM PDT

  •  THANK YOU (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    tryptamine, Darksyde888

    there's nothing more discouraging for a 19 year old than hearing that our generation isn't towing the line, when we aren't even the ones in power right now!

  •  This is nothing but wedge issue, (9+ / 0-)

    and I'm always surprised when it comes up how few seem to see it as such.

    Most folks here seem to have no trouble recognizing that to treat as a single entity any part of the population (by sex, race, sexual orientation etc.), is pure bigotry, but will jump right in when it comes to the stereotyping of an entire age group.

    Behold the Lambs of Kos

    by greeseyparrot on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 03:07:53 PM PDT

    •  Clearing the air (5+ / 0-)

      Yes, age is a wedge between progressives. I think unless people are allowed to list their greviences and clear the air, it will be a destructive undercurrent that will rip our movement apart. The distrust needs to get out in the open and squashed.

      Look at health care for example. Both the young and old, everyone in America needs to find a better way of providing health care to all Americans. But if it gets bogged down in generational bickering, we get distracted.

      I think there are many issues that we face together. Young people are upset at the state of the Nation, but so are old people. I think we people to speak or write their peace, but then listen or read to what others are saying.

      No generation alone has the answer. We need to be thinking and working together to help fix the problems America and the world is facing. Not just for the oldsters, not just for the youngsters, but for the next seven generations of people to come after us.

      We need to not only see the past and the present, but look into the future.

  •  if there was a DRAFT (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    matt2525, SherriG, va dare, SeekCa

    there would be protests in the street and activists on every street corner

    the people who decry the inactivism of todays "youth" forget that the 60's generation did not take to the streets in significant numbers until their own asses were going to be possibly put on the vietnam war line....

    the moment significant numbers of middleclass college attending kids had to submit themselves to the draft lottery the country's 'youth' got a whole heckava lot more vocally anti war.

    that is, in my opinion, the reason there is no draft and instead team Bush uses companies like Blackwater to fill the "boots on the ground" deficit.

    the one lesson the neocons learned from vietnam (and there are not many lessons they seem to have learned) is that you stand a better chance of waging your wars without to much protesting IF you have as little involuntary participation by the general population as possible.

    "if all the world's a stage, who is sitting in the audience?"

    by KnotIookin on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 03:11:30 PM PDT

  •  Call me lazy... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Meteor Blades, Magnifico

    but I'd be happy to go out and protest, just bring the protest to me.  I can't afford to go to WDC or seattle or anywhere except Nashville to protest.  Me taking a day trip would mean finding someone to watch the kids, because we can't afford for my wife to stop working (I work two days a week).
    My wife has a MA and makes about 32K a year (she works for a non-profit arts organization).  I've got an EdS and if I worked full time I'd make about 36k a year (education).  We're a family of 5.  I'll turn 27 this month.  We owe 91k on our house, not including a 20k home equity loan.  I owe 22k in student loans, my wife owes 36k.  Yes, we picked the wrong fields to make money.  I do what I can to raise awareness about elections and to attract people to the Democratic cause.  But it's hard in the south when you don't have any money.

    "Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is no path and leave a trail."- Emerson

    by Sidof79 on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 03:12:44 PM PDT

  •  As an aging baby (27+ / 0-)

    ...boomer - I was born in '46, the "cutting edge" of the boom - and a lifelong activist who has not been ragging on members of the "younger generation," but encouraging them to find their own way of achieving what I think we all believe are worthwhile political, economic, and environmental goals, let me say a few short things, eeach of which might fill a Diary:

    • Just as the current generation does not have one point of view and is not cut from one cloth, neither is the baby-boomer generation. Don't forget, George Bush, Bill Clinton, teacherken and I are all 60 this year.
    • Economics for a big chunk of the baby boom generation ain't no picnic. Get laid off in your 50s when the mortgage isn't yet paid, those college educations for your kids are yet to be covered, your 401K has been damaged if not demolished, and you still have 10 years until you can collect Social Security and you'll see what I mean.
    • We baby boomers who were involved politically and stayed that way were always the minority, even in the old days - Dan Quayle was a baby boomer, too, and I never ran into him on the picket line. I don't take any blame for what the Dan Quayles of my generation have done; I've been fighting these bastards since before I could vote.
    • Don't forget that nearly 60,000 mostly baby boomers got their heads or nuts or legs shot off in Vietnam, and hundreds of thousands came back permanently traumatized from a war prosecuted  futilely by those great leaders you mention, Kennedy and Johnson and Nixon. I'd call 60K dead Americans - not to mention 3+ million Vietnamese - more than a foible.
    • We made mistakes, we politically progressive baby boomers, tactically, strategically, and other ways. We failed, for instance, to stop the election of Ronald Reagan before many of you were out of diapers. We didn't push hard enough to deal with global warming (both via policy and personal habits). You'll make your mistakes. And 40 years or so from now, Generation Whatever-It's-Called will be critiquing you in whatever new medium has developed by then, demanding that you hold up a mirror to yourselves.

    Nicely written Diary, even the parts I disagreed with.  

    •  '47 here (5+ / 0-)

      Great comments.  I wonder how many of our boomer brethren would be complacent or supportive of the administration if their sons and daughters were being drafted into the military instead of simply into indebted servitude?

    •  Agreed in all respects. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      NearlyNormal

      Excellent comment, MB.  

      1-20-09 the darkness ends "Where cruelty exists, law does not." ~ Alberto Mora

      by noweasels on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 03:21:24 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  You of course make an excellent point. (3+ / 0-)

      This being said, in terms of generations in the US, the "Greatest Generation" delivered the "Great Society," both in the US and in Europe, after enduring the greatest carnage the West had seen for centuries, building on the progress of the previous generation.

      The post-war boom generation delivered similar advancements in most parts of Europe. But in America? Reaganism, Clinton 3rd-way (think Welfare "Reform") and now, the apotheosis, Dubya-ism.

      That's really at the heart of the wrath directed toward your generation. Where others have succeeded, with far less fan-fare, the present generation in the US has done worse than fail - it has actually undermined previous advances.

      You are 100% right. Many of your generation are righteous. But, controlling for other factors (eg - look at what "boomers" accomplished in France, for instance) I'd have to say that people are on to something with the criticism of the "me"-generation in America.

      Freedom is merely privilege extended unless enjoyed by one and all -9.50, -5.74

      by redstar on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 03:28:28 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  And I am one of its biggest ... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        redstar, NearlyNormal

        ...critics.

      •  Past accomplishments (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Creosote, RainyDay, jjellin

        One thing to remember though, is that we were a country that had lots of cheap oil. We were self-sufficient through most of the 60's. We were also the only industrialized nation to survive WW2 untouched by a land war or aerial bombardment (does Australia count?). That means we had cheap energy and the infrastructure to consume it. We had money and we could afford to be generous with the Marshall Plan and our other accomplishments. The American Dream as we knew it died in the 70's with the economic malaise and the Reaganomics that followed. Who knows what could've happened if we didn't have to pay for the Great Society and the Vietnam War at the same time, but the domestic oil production peak and the oil shocks of the 70's still would've happened.

        It would be unfair to point to those accomplishments and blame the youth for not accomplishing as much in the hypercompetitive global economy today. Was it as easy as cruising through college with B's and C's and graduating to a nice job?

        As a Gen-X'er I can say we did our part with technology and the Internet to keep the U.S. economy flying high for a little while longer, but I'm pessimistic about another new technological boom to save the day.

    •  46 = beer (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Irfo, SherriG

      48 = pot

      At least where I gre up. :-)

      Teacher's Lounge opens each Saturday, sometime between 10am and 12 noon EST

      by rserven on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 03:43:15 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Why my peeps didnt protest (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TiaRachel

    We saw it as being useless.  Now they are basically walk-a-thons with signs.  We have never seen anything be effected by protests.  Even looking back, aside from civil rights in the early 60's none of that protesting did shit to stop the war.

    www.tasinifornewyork.org

    by naufragus on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 03:18:55 PM PDT

    •  dead wrong (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Meteor Blades, libnewsie

      The organizers of the recent immigration protests put on a clinic on how to positively effect public opinion through peaceful protest. We did it with the Iraq War as well. The general public didn't get any smarter... 50% now believe Iraq posessed WMD's at the time of our invasion, a much higher percentage than did two years ago. Yet we successfully swayed the opinion of these people through peaceful protest last summer. Cindy Sheehan was the story of that three month period.

      "The [National Government] regards Christianity as the foundation of our national morality, and the family as the basis of national life." -- Hitler

      by dolcissimo1 on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 03:30:19 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Sorry, but think (know) you're (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      wpchas

      absolutely wrong on this one.

      As the numbers in the streets grow, the politicians become pressured.  They're forced to respond.  And, because public protests call for public responses, they better look closely at their positions and the facts they use to back up those positions.  It happened with the Civil Rights movement, as it happened with Vietnam, and it's happening right now with our on-going occupation of Iraq.  

      If ONE person stands out on a corner with a sign (or a similar "street" action), no one notices.  People kind of sit back to see what will happen.  Politicians don't get stressed out at that point.  It's disregarded by them.  If the next day 15 people are on that corner carrying signs, it's still no big deal.  If the next week, there's 50 or 100 people on a number of corners in several cities, it begins to get a little attention.  The consistent multiplying of numbers and places gives an identity to the discontentment, and it becomes conspicuous if the point being made is ignored.  Politicians are forced to provide explanations. The resulting effect on policy and government action is a slow process and only moves forward as the exposure and pressure grows.

      To say protests made a difference in the Civil Rights movement in the early 60's, but made no difference with Johnson or Nixon in regard to their policies in Vietnam is absurd.  The constant and growing protests weighed on these men greatly and resulted in a focus that exposed the failures in that effort that could no longer be continued or justified with public support.

      In regard to Iraq, not much questioning or discontent was evident or given much validity until Cindy Sheehan pitched her lone tent at Bush's doorstep in Crawford.  Within weeks, the ditches filled with tents, and approximately 1 million people followed her in that action to Bush's doorstep in DC, and to the doorstep of Congress.  For those of you who did not make it to Crawford or to the DC rally last year, let me tell you that it was evident our representatives were acutely aware that from here on out it would not be business as usual with this war.  After the march came the lobbying.  The halls and offices of Congress were filled with informed and determined citizens.  The normal 10 minute allowance for meetings with representatives was turned into 30 to 60 minute meetings with full top staff presence.  They were paying attention big time.  It was clear we would never have been given this amount of time and attention if the protesters had not camped on the roads in Crawford and filled the streets in DC.

      A lot of "closet" objectors in Congress find their voice only after protesters fill the streets.  

  •  I'm a boomer (13+ / 0-)

    and I haven't got much idea of what that means in other than a superficial sense.  I am astounded that there is not Universal Health Care, that mj is illegal, that we don't have a more equitable tax and wage system and I am beyond astounded that we have turned the FBI loose again and are engaged in another illegal and unwinnable war.  But there are forces at work here that do not break down generationally.

    I've got two kids, one early twenties thirties(tempus fugit) and one late twenties, and they are exactly what I'd hoped they would be personally, but are struggling financially and trying to adapt and make good decisions so that they can take care of their kids.

    My generation and your generation and the one before me and the one after you and the ones that fall between the easy categories all need to work together to get the education at a cheap cost, the universal health care, the wars ended and the damned military and corporate monkeys off our backs.

    I'd look at Europe as a place to live if I was in my youth.

    "I said, 'wait a minute, Chester, you know I'm a peaceful man.'" Robbie Robertson -8.13, -4.56

    by NearlyNormal on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 03:20:12 PM PDT

  •  Jesus fucking christ on a crutch. (11+ / 0-)

    Who are these "boomers"?

    Do you mean me?  If you do, you're dead wrong.  I can name about 20 people of my acquaintance about whom you are wrong.  And that's just off the top of my head.

    So please please please stop with the bigoted speech?

    Can you not find a more accurate target for your ire?  Can you not place responsibility for the mess upon those who generated it?

    It really, really pisses me off when people are bigots.  I hate that.

    Imagine writing this diary with an ethnic group's name instead of "boomer."

    I'm not writing this to the diarist; the diary is more focused.  But so many of the comments are directed at "boomers" and it's just really pissing me off.

    I'm a white male, and I think I never really experience prejudice before.  But reading the comments in this diary, I am coming to understand what it's like to be gay, to be a black person, to be a woman.

    Stop with the bigotry.  This is wrong.

    •  Hi, Marc... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Meteor Blades, Marc in KS

      ...welcome to this particular roasting party.

      Teacher's Lounge opens each Saturday, sometime between 10am and 12 noon EST

      by rserven on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 03:40:49 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Howdy fellow dusty curtain (4+ / 0-)

      I feel your angst and I read the comments that I know blew your top. I read them and felt the same, but then I simply shook my head.

      Again, people are focusing on those things that differentiate us rather that those things that bind us together. People like to point fingers and say "you" are to blame or "they" are to blame. I say forget the blame and finger pointing and join forces to tackle the real problems of the present and future. We have to find that common platform, no matter the age, the race, the gender, the religious or non religious beliefs, the particular place in the political spectra.

      For the record, I have felt blasted by portions of this community for my femaleness, for my hippiness, for my age, for my whateverness beliefs so many times now that I just can't take it personally anymore. All I can hope to do is aspire for those commonalities and hope others will do the same. I honestly believe that there is enough of a core here doing that, so I let the diviseness slide off the back.

      -76W-83S It's always because we love that we are rebellious; it takes a great deal of love to give a damn - Kenneth Patchen

      by cosmic debris on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 06:31:45 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  You, me and Bill Gates... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      jjellin

      JFC on a C is right.

      Look man, if the shoe doesn't fit, don't wear it.  But don't get all offended like we're some kind of oppressed minority or something.

      But reading the comments in this diary, I am coming to understand what it's like to be gay, to be a black person, to be a woman.

      Typical irresponsible boomer bullshit.  If you think getting insulted on a blog is something akin to being black in the USA... Brother, if I have to tell what's wrong with that equivalency, then you're a poster child for what the diarist is saying.

      •  Bite me. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Floja Roja

        I'm not the one blaming an entire group.  I'm telling you it makes me angry to hear my group castigated for things for which they are not responsible.  I'm telling you this is divisive, is not constructive, and is just plain bigoted.

        It really is.  Look up the definition of "stereotyping" or "bigotry" in a dictionary.

      •  Sorry about the 'bite me.' (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Floja Roja

        But look.

        Suppose someone wrote a diary about the evil that neocons have perpetrated on the world.  And suppose in comments to that diary a bunch of people started bashing Jews.

        Suppose then a Jew comments that he or she finds it offensive.  Would you tell that person not to be offended, as long as they're not a necon?  "If the shoe doesn't fit, don't wear it"?

        I'm not complaining that I'm an oppressed minority.  I'm saying that this is bigotry.  It's divisive and it's hurtful, and wish people would just stop it.

        Your comment is bigoted: "Typical irresponsible boomer bullshit."  That's bigotry.  That's stereotyping.  That's what I'm pissed about.

  •  The revolution will not be televised... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    va dare, angrytoyrobot

    it will be on the internet though.

  •  Those kids (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Gutterboy, Magnifico

    and their rap music.  With the hippin and the hoppin and the bippin and the boppin.  They don't know what the jazz is all about! - the Coz

  •  I'm one of 'em and I am here. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    va dare

    don't lump me in with the 20% or the 28%

  •  bingo! (8+ / 0-)

    This is one of the best diaries I've read about the generation gap in a long time.

    I'm 25. I graduated magna cum laude from undergrad thre eyears ago. Despite my grades and my history of stable student employment and internship experience, I could not find an entry-level job in my home state that paid more than $25,00 per year. After 6 months of misery, I quit and went back to graduate school. One master's degree later, I've decided to trudge on to the PhD because I like teaching and because there's expanding growth for instructors who can teach in professional-oriented fields at community colleges and non-elite four year universities. I'll have amassed close to $30,000 in debt by the time I'm done with my doctorate, and based on the experiences of my colleagues, I'm one of the lucky ones.

    I've been able to get through graduate school so far as a teaching assistant, taught public speaking to 18 and 19 year-olds for the past two years. I can share the following observations about our youth:

    1. They think Bush is dumber than a box-of-rocks. Many of them don't hold Democrats in much higher regard. Most of my students thought that Kerry was "okay," but not entirely sincere.
    1. Though most of them do lean somewhat to the left in terms of their ideological beliefs, they are cynical about partisan politics in general. They are much more likely to be drawn to "independent" candidates like Kinky Friedman or Jesse Ventura who understand their cynicism.
    1. The culture wars don't have much the same effect on students. By and large, they see homosexuality as "no big deal" and something that should be a private matter. They think different religions out to be equally respected (or alternatively, equally ridiculed). I'm sure these differences may be less noticable in red states, but even there, I was surprised. I visited a friend who teaches at the University of Nebraska last year, and was surprised to find a substantial number of UNL students who despised the contemporary GOP.
    1. They are not cynical about leadership, they are cynical about institutions. I'll expand more on this later.
  •  Youth apathy = myth (9+ / 0-)

    When I go to left wing events I see young people and I see people who are the "aging baby boomers".

    I'm 41. I really don't see a great deal of activism from people my age. In fact, to talk with some of them you'd think that Dubya invented all the problems of the USA and that it was Utopia before then. I often remark how some of the class warfare diaries on this site are at least a decade behind Doug Henwood. Where were you people when the Clinton years were making American inequality more like Brazil than Sweden?

    Especially since it's the older folks who turned the country into a militaristic mess with an imperial presidency... it seems pretty arrogant to insist that young people come along and fix it. Who is it that came up with the idea of MOABs and white phosphorus rounds and poverty wages for teachers and offshoring your jobs and paying CEOs eleventy-seven billion dollars a year and driving 'automobiles' the size of the USS Nimitz, anyway? Where are the older folks protesting all of that? I haven't seen many million person marches on Washington except from the immigration movement.

    So I am not about to blame younger folks.

    Given a choice between a real Republican and a Democrat who acts like a Republican, Americans will choose the real Republican every time - Harry Truman

    by tiggers thotful spot on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 03:31:13 PM PDT

  •  True, very true (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TiaRachel, realalaskan, orphanpower

    In the modern corporate world, one must take great care to not put off one's employer.  It's far too easy to be replaced. But that's not even the biggest change...the biggest change is cultural.

    With the modern corporate world we have the modern corporate media.  When I read a detailed diary here or a blog post elsewhere showing a protest of X thousands of people...but then the AP or Reuters account of the protest says things like:

    Despite the organizers' intention to disrupt the appearance by XYZ person, the protest did not draw much notice.

    We don't have a Walter Cronkite telling us about the world and the nation and the war...we have Katie Couric feeding her audience right wing spin and dithering over the color of Al Roker's tie...

    Another way of putting that:

    Instead of

    We have

    You tell me...what IS our truth? WHOSE truth?
    (note: yeah I gotta admit, SBemails are fun) ;-)

    It is amazing how much can be accomplished when you don't care who gets the credit - Harry Truman
    PoliticalCompass Scale: -2.13, -2.97

    by floundericiousMI on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 03:31:16 PM PDT

  •  No Opinion (0+ / 0-)

    28%. How many over 25 have no opinion? That's the comparison.

  •  Wow, like, Wow! (7+ / 0-)

    What an excellent diary.

    Indeed, most of the young people I know do care about the world - and they don't like George Bush.  They are involved on the Middle Eastern issues.  They are also broke.

    Broke with Masters Degrees.

    Isn't it nice that you can get a Master's in Elementary Ed and only make $30,000 a year?

    Would you ask, why bother?

    Dana Curtis Kincaid Ad Astra per Aspera! http://www.angrytoyrobot.blogspot.com The enemy is not man, the enemy is stupidity.

    by angrytoyrobot on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 03:33:03 PM PDT

  •  right on... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    libnewsie

    It took our parents several years and thousands of deaths before the Vietnam War-era peace movement was in full swing, whereas there was a highly visible, fully functional, world-wide peace movement in place before the Iraq War had even begun. Also, the current peace movement will do very well for the elections of '06 and '08, whereas the Vietnam Era peace movement resulted in electoral disaster for our cause.

    "The [National Government] regards Christianity as the foundation of our national morality, and the family as the basis of national life." -- Hitler

    by dolcissimo1 on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 03:35:06 PM PDT

  •  I'm a boomer and proud of it (0+ / 0-)

    Dad and mom fucked and had my brother and I in 1951 6 years after dad returned from fighting a war in Japan. That war was to end all wars.....then came Viet Nam....so at the end of the 60's I was standing up against war. My brother was killed in Nam....I really got angry.........

    Don't piss me off with any bullshit....this crap stinks. If you don't agree with your leaders and think they're fucking up your country you do everything to kick their asses out period. Yes...we did that back then. And looks like we'll have to do it now without the youth..thankyouverymuch!

    "It's Hard Work!" George Bush..."He that is good for making excuses is seldom good for anything else." Bejamin Franklin

    by JellyPuddin on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 03:42:24 PM PDT

    •  you kicked them out back then? (0+ / 0-)

      so if you were born in 51, your first election was to elect richard nixon.  who exactly were you kicking out?  george mcgovern?

      •  I worked the McGovern campaign (0+ / 0-)

        McGovern was against the war in Viet Nam....Nixon and his apes screwed with McGovern and his setup and stole the election....

        As for Johnson...he made his bed and fell out of it and the VP was a loser at the time. Nixon was a farce and the United States was falling apart at the seams...much like now. Finally we forced Nixon out and Ford laid back....Carter was nothing and then came Reagan

        "It's Hard Work!" George Bush..."He that is good for making excuses is seldom good for anything else." Bejamin Franklin

        by JellyPuddin on Tue Aug 08, 2006 at 05:08:23 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  What we did, actually (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        JellyPuddin

        was to flush out and extinguish to an effective degree the vestigal "fighting the big one" attitude of our fathers; one family at a time. We were "meatheads", but we were fucking stubborn.

        And, like always, the reactionaries like Richard J. Daley and the Ohio National Guard did all the hard work.

        •  Absolutely....couldn't have said it better (0+ / 0-)

          without Gov James A Rhoades of Ohio and Mayor Richard Daily of Chicago...a Republican and a Crooked Democrat we would still be in Viet Nam probably.....they helped to make our case by killing and beating up just innocent kids asking a question of WHY?

          "It's Hard Work!" George Bush..."He that is good for making excuses is seldom good for anything else." Bejamin Franklin

          by JellyPuddin on Tue Aug 08, 2006 at 07:02:43 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Oh yes... (0+ / 0-)
      ... I certainly hope not to 'piss you off with any bullshit', whatever the hell that means.

      It could be wagered that, no, you didn't kick anything out of office. You ended no war. WaterGate and North Vietnam did that for you.

      As for our generation, we have hope of ending the war. We have hope of electing who we want to office. And we want all the help we can get. The only difference here is that there is no draft. Period.

  •  The Boomer Generation (4+ / 0-)

    ... was majority Republican from Day One.  Eighteen-year-olds got the right to vote in 1971, and in the 1972 presidential election Nixon won every state in the U.S. except Massachusetts.  

    Boomers never swung to the right -- they couldn't, because that's where they were to begin with.  The myth of a massive Boomer swing, while apparently irresistable even (especially?) to today's left, remains nothing but an easily-disproven urban legend.

    The accomplishments of the 60's were brought about by a small minority of Boomers.  They did it in the streets, by intimidation.  After cities burned in the 1960's race riots, after students stormed and occupied college administration buildings at will, when those same folks showed up in D.C. by the hundreds of thousands, it prompted even Republican politicians to vote in ways they hoped would protect their marble workplaces from a similar fate.

    Once the U.S. withdrew from Vietnam, and the civil rights movement and women's movement and environmental movement and gay rights movement, etc., had all been been transformed from obscurity into power centers, the New Left minority of the Boomer generation thought its job was done, thought it had won, and left the streets to raise families -- that is, to bring you or your parents into the world.

    You can argue that was a mistake, but try not to think too hard about it, or you might change your mind.  In the meantime, try also to learn some history.  Start with these two facts:

    • The progress of the 60's was brought about by an extremely insistent minority of the Boomer generation
    • "Hippie" (usually preceded by the adjectives "dirty" and "smelly") was a term originally coined to describe the "tune in, turn on, drop out" contingent of the Boomer generation, who were focused on sex, drugs, and rock 'n roll, and who were not very politically active.  "Hippie" as a term was then seized upon by the right to paint the dissidents and radicals -- the words serious youth of the time used to describe themselves -- with the same broad, disdainful brush, just as it is today by today's fable-fed left.  Also, the singular form is "hippie," not "hippy"; the latter is an adjective, not a noun.

    (Disclaimer:  I am not one of the people I write admiringly about.  In 1968 I was 10 years old, and all I could do as I watched on black-and-white TV as the Chicago Police cracked demonstrators' skulls thirty miles away at the Democratic Convention was yell and cry and wish like hell that I was six or eight years older so I could be there.  By the time I got to college, the only movement I could join was the comparatively boring Divestiture Movement.  You've heard of that one, right?)

    95% of humanity doesn't live in the U.S. Frankly, I have to side with them, when sides are taken.

    by Irfo on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 03:48:36 PM PDT

    •  Today's youth give me hope for the future (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Lanya

      I agree 100% with Irfo - those active in the 50's and 60's, the ones planning and agitating, were a small group. A larger number were aligned in some way, but took little action. But the rest of the country took notice, thought about things differently, reacted, argued - and eventually they changed their values radically. This is true of the civil rights movement, the anti-Vietnam war protestors, the feminist movement, and especially the environmental movement. I highly recommend reading The Cultural Creatives by Paul Ray and Sherry Anderson for a better understanding.

      Our children (I'm 53) are already Cultural Creatives. We had to go through the turbulence of the 60's to get where our children are starting out. I'll give just one example. I've done a lot of work on gay civil rights, including marriage equality. I never thought I would see "gay marriage" in my lifetime. But then I started reading that young people overwhelmingly favor marriage equality. Don't you think that will soon lead to major advances in gay civil rights?

      As for too few people - young and otherwise - getting active, I think this is just the way things are and always have been. It was that way in the 60's, and it's that way now. I wouldn't worry about it too much. A small group of people can make a tremendous difference.

      The Traditionals (Religious Right) are old and dying out. Young people are rejecting the Moderns and their emphasis on consumerism (Bush and his ilk - and, unfortunately, too many Democratic leaders). If there is any hope for the future of the planet, it's with the Cultural Creatives. And it's our young people who are destined to make that group the majority of the population as they come of age.

  •  Nope, not buying this (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    NearlyNormal, ElMateo

    When I was in college, I didn't have a penny to my fricking name, and I protested all the time -- not just on my campus.  These days I have way, WAY more disposable income and do it much less.

    Okay, maybe not that much less.  And okay, I blog.  But you can't pin youth's failure to march in the streets on disposable income.  I just don't think it's supportable by fact.  Much of the peace movement was spawned and driven by people who lived on communes and sustenance farms.  Lots of people sacrificed personal prosperity to build a better society in the 60s, per JFK's call.

    "That rug really tied the room together." (-4.88, -5.03)

    by The Termite on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 04:00:21 PM PDT

  •  Thank you! (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mediaprisoner

    I haven't had a chance to read all the comments yet, and I'm sure this is repeated often, but THANK YOU.

    I'm 30.  I have a non-traditional job (opera singer).  I work occasional day jobs as other things (nanny, choral singer, textbook editor).  Sometimes I have lots of time.  Mostly, not so much.  DFA meetings, for example here are on Wednesday nights, when I have a nanny day job commitment.  Could I get out of it? Yes, and lose my job.  Er...

    I'm well educated.  In fact, kind of ridiculously so given my choice of occupation.  And I can speak to the fact that most people my age can't afford to be as active in politics as we'd like.  

    Thanks.

  •  You're right, there is no youth apathy problem, (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    libnewsie

    there is however a problem with propagandized youth.

    "Leave the gun ... take the cannoli." -8.38, -7.69

    by Balam on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 04:01:51 PM PDT

    •  Propagandized youth? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      libnewsie, mediaprisoner

      These college kids are still living off of mommy and daddy's dime.

      Let's see if they can still afford to be Republicans  when they are on their own.

      Let's make Tommy Moore our Governor.

      by wayward on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 04:14:28 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Alot of them have no problem at all. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        mediaprisoner, Buddha Hat

        Most of the ones I know are headed off to get MBAs and law degrees.  Corporate America may be evil in the eyes of alot of Boomers and GenXer's like me, but it's "the only way to be," as far as alot of millenials are concerned.  I recently got into an argument with a 23 year old acquaintance of mine who insisted that greed is "the best motivation" for keeping the economy going, and that it was therefore a very good thing.  She thinks Bill Clinton is a communist.  Another one I was talking to got angry at the idea of universal health care because it's "socialist" and expressed no problem with the idea of people being uninsured as long as a cost-benefit analysis continued to show that it would be better for the overall economy ... I think "economically efficient" was the term she used.  Another kid I know, this one 22 I think, worships the ground that Joementum walks on.  

        I could go on and on and on.

        I spend almost all my time around folks from "generation Y."  Almost all of my friends, classmates and coworkers are under 25.  My experience is that, while there are alot of really progressive folks in this age group, that they are outnumbered by their pro-corporate, social darwinist counterparts.  Nixon is thought of almost like a martyr, and McCain is idolized.  I think the only reason why Bush is so unpopular with this group is because the religious fundamentalism and homophobia turns alot of them off (though certainly not all of them).  

        "Leave the gun ... take the cannoli." -8.38, -7.69

        by Balam on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 04:39:48 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  that was not my experience (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      libnewsie, mediaprisoner
      at SF State.

      I was there 2002-2005 and helped found the College Democrats there.
      We had a hard time recruiting memebrs because the largest political group on campus was the college Socia