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Gee, National Security Adviser Stephen Hadley, since you are apparently one of the few people in the real world who doesn't know that answer (along with the rest of the Administration) let's look at some of these wonderful revelations from Gitmo.

Shackling a detainee so long he soiled himself, using his hair to mop the mess up, and then making him sit like that with no way to clean himself for three days.  Hmmm.... pretty humiliating.

Having female soldiers strip your clothes off, put you in a human pyramid, taking pictures next to that pile that will end up on international television, that's humiliating.

Being forced to masturbate in front of a crowd of people....check.

Locked in cages smaller than people's walk-in closets, which happen to be outside, so therefore exposed to the elements....double check.

Getting your ass kicked just to show others not to get out of line....check again.

The rest after the jump....

I could go on and on, but I think the point's been made.  It's like when the band kid gets beat up and thrown into a trashcan in front of the whole school by the jocks from the football team.  Every damn one of those people knows that kid was humiliated.  I'm willing to even say it may be some of those band kids who are getting their revenge and using detainees to do it with.  At least, they are certainly demonstrating the mindset.

How people who publicly proclaim their love of Jesus Christ over and over again can go up there and defend violating his central tenets as protecting us is beyond me.  All I know is, hearing these people demonstrate this ugliest of hypocrisies makes me want to vomit on a regular basis.  

They like to say us progressives are "godless," "hate religion," and are "secularists," but who is really demonstrating the tenets of the faith that Jesus taught us?  Those who start needless wars and advocate torture, or those of us who fight for human rights, decency, and the rule of law?

It's kinda like Hadley's question.  Everyone knows the answer, but not everyone admits it.

Originally posted to The Dreaming Tree on Sun Sep 17, 2006 at 11:49 PM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Tips (32+ / 0-)

    for luck.  There's a lot going down for me this week.

    There is hardly a political question in the United States which does not sooner or later turn into a judicial one. -5.25, -4.67

    by wolverinethad on Sun Sep 17, 2006 at 11:34:05 PM PDT

  •  recc'd (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Avila, khereva, Immigrant Punk

    n/t

  •  Thanks to our administration, we have a long list (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Avila, khereva

    now of practices that could be spelled out for the exact definitions he and bush want
    ...and that cover a great many humiliations we have used, and we are stuck with this history until the sun turns red and dies.

    "The America I love still exists at the front desks of our public libraries." Kurt Vonnegut

    by cfk on Sun Sep 17, 2006 at 11:48:43 PM PDT

  •  "Who would Jesus waterboard?" (8+ / 0-)

    Ask a conservative voter in your life, today!

    •  To be honest, (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      khereva, Immigrant Punk

      if they believe Jesus would condemn people to eternal hell for an alternative view of his deity-hood, I doubt they'd have trouble thinking he'd waterboard.

      •  Logically true. (0+ / 0-)

        But hell-fire is daddy's job. Jesus is an advocate for humanity, an intervention on our side, our lawyer who can cut the plea bargain to keep us out of hell even if we deserve it. He's Mr. "Turn the other cheek," "Love thine enemy," and "Whatsoever you do unto the least of my people..."

        Look, I'm not a Believer (and I mean no disrespect to those who are), but many in Bush's "base" are, and even they are becoming persuadable that the Resident is, in a word, nuts. Now, ya can't win a debate with the faithful. But one can turn the hypocrisy back on itself, when times get as severe as they are in 2006, and maybe even peel of some of the most evangelical of support. Not the true ideologues, but those with simple, sincere faith.

        Let's chip chip chip away at the neocon's church base! with the tool of their very own excesses...

  •  Never, ever give torturers a laundry list of (8+ / 0-)
    what is or is not torture. They (collectively) are going to be endlessly inventive in ways to circumvent the laundry list, i.e. waterboarding is not acceptable? Well, gatorade boarding is not on the list so that must be cool, right?

    Stick to the 'vague' that has worked for 50 years, and if anyone is really so dense they can't figure out what is or is not torture, then have the 'technique' performed on the 'confused officer', to see what he thinks. The golden rule - do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

    The ticking time bomb suitcase nuke scenario - ok torture, but be aware that you face consequences and that trying to disasemble the bomb is likely to have better results than torture.

    "The healthy man does not torture others - generally it is the tortured who turn into torturers. " Jung

    by sailmaker on Mon Sep 18, 2006 at 12:00:10 AM PDT

  •  Sure I know humiliation. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    wolverinethad

    I'm a Penn State fan. Nice blog though </gnashingofteeth>  ;p

    WIN ELECTIONS or Buy Guns.

    by Robert Davies on Mon Sep 18, 2006 at 12:14:57 AM PDT

    •  LOL (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Robert Davies

      Well, as a Wolverine grad who watched his first season out of school turn into a disaster for his team, I know the feeling.  But hey, we're back, baby!

      There is hardly a political question in the United States which does not sooner or later turn into a judicial one. -5.25, -4.67

      by wolverinethad on Mon Sep 18, 2006 at 12:22:04 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yeh Yeh Yeh I almost had what I thought (0+ / 0-)

        was a permanent poo stain on my face left over from when Griese had rolled into Beaver Stadium a few years back but NO you bastards pull that shit again! What would Jesus do!!! I'll tell ya what he'd do! He'd a called time out!

        WIN ELECTIONS or Buy Guns.

        by Robert Davies on Mon Sep 18, 2006 at 12:33:13 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  The lie here lies in (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Fabian, cfk, khereva

    the pretension that there is a one time, abstract formulation of the answer to this question.

    It depends on the situation whether a treatment or coercion is torture.  There are many situations into which we could put people that are incompatible with calling ourselves civilized human beings.  We don't bury people alive, punish their relatives for an individual's deeds, and so on.

    For the extremely rare scenario of the terrorist and the hideous hidden time bomb- a real President would ask The People for a one-time power to behave badly, not for a law to allow him to do very bad things to whomever he chooses.

    The game here and now is that Bush wants retroactive license for the torture committed on his watch, which yielded nothing worth the violation involved.  He needs a law to cover his own ass, this is about nothing more than that.

    Renewal, not mere Reform.

    by killjoy on Mon Sep 18, 2006 at 12:43:23 AM PDT

  •  Part of me (6+ / 0-)

    is still in a state of denial about this... How in the Hell could we even be having a discussion on torture?!?!  Boggles the freaking mind.

    -7.63,-4.31 "The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt."

    by mlbx2 on Mon Sep 18, 2006 at 12:48:14 AM PDT

    •  I suspect that (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mlbx2, khereva

      sub-group of pro-torture Americans has always existed; Bush simply gave them permission to embrace their hatred. Post 9/11, et al.  They do not see Muslims as human, so it's quite easy for them to justify this.

      There is a quote from an Eli Wiesel book, I believe.  He asked one of the Nazis, "how can you do this?" and the reply was, "For me, you are not quite human".   Having spent much time on LGF and Free Republic recently (for a piece I'm writing, not because I enjoy a nice refreshing dip in the sewer), I can say that the references to "Mooslims" and Islamofascists are pretty clearly indicative of a group that has collectively dehumanized another group.  Ergo, all bets are off re: treatment.

      •  Yes, (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        khereva

        it does always seem to boil down to "Us" vs. "Them".

        No matter how much we hope that we've moved past this, it always comes bubbling back up. Just needs a focus and a perceived legitimacy.

        -7.63,-4.31 "The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt."

        by mlbx2 on Mon Sep 18, 2006 at 05:19:25 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Where does this sadistic stance come from .... (6+ / 0-)

    ..in our leadership?   Everyone should be very worried about this administration's willingness to embrace torture so easily, and the apparent willingness also to consider practicing it on American citizens, which only adds to the immoral character of Bush's people.  This is beyond worrisome to me.  I hope to all of you as well.    

    •  That's a good question, actually (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      khereva

      I agree that there is a "sadistic" streak in this administration, and among certain subgroups of its supporters.

      Remember that Bush tortured animals (frogs), and has that weird penchant for encouraging people to exercise to exhaustion with him in absurd heat while insulting them - so it's there at the top to some extent. But I think it goes beyond him.  As we've seen, the rhetoric of the far right is very hate-filled, very racist, misogynistic, sometimes even violent - a lot of "war" imagery, a lot of dehumanizing of the "other", whether the "other" be a gay American, an abortion doctor, an Arab, whatever.

      Point is, there is something systemic about the sadistic tendency, or at least the habits of dehumanization that fuel it. As for where it came from orignally, I don't know. That's a whole study, I guess.

      It is no worse, because I write of it. It would be no better, if I stopped my most unwilling hand.

      by ChaosMouse on Mon Sep 18, 2006 at 01:38:08 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  sadistic (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        khereva

        Don't forget that Bush also participated in branding pledges in his Yale fraternity.

        Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world's grief... You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.

        by Albatross on Mon Sep 18, 2006 at 04:40:36 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I know what torture is.... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Lovo

    having to watch these assholes run our country is pretty torturous. I hope to see them in the Hague soon enough.

  •  "dehumanization" is crucial to it (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    khereva

    As others have commented here, these characters who espouse or rationalize torture implicitly "dehumanize" their victims.  The term is not ideal, because it does not quite fit how the same people, usually as kids, will sadistically brutalize animals.  What's involved is a very pathological lack of capacity, or self-destruction of the capacity to feel for the awareness or sensitivity of the victim. The victim becomes, in the mind of the "torturer" a thing, an inanimate object. It's more like "deanimating" the victim, whether it be animal or human.

    A variety of psychopathological factors can and often are involved, including pathological narcissism, perverse sexualization of the act, and paranoia.

    We know just how much George W. Bush fits this picture. Problem is, it's not uncommon. And intellectual "brilliance" can coexist. Hadley's supposed to be some sort of "brain." Screw him, he's as wacky as the rest of them. He can dress up in a spiffy uniform and dance on the Potomac, but he's still a "Dr. Strangelove."

  •  "Who signed this shitty treaty anyway?" (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    wakemeup7nov06

    "What were they thinking?  Well, it doesn't matter: 9/11 changed everything.  Take my word for it."

  •  Do good to those that hate you (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ybruti

    Jesus said that, right after love your neighbor as yourself and love your enemies.

    Following Jesus is just SO HARD!
    Following Dobson and Bush, much easier.

  •  But they cut people's heads off!!! (0+ / 0-)

    Yeah, and we sexually abuse children to torture the parents.

    What have we become?

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