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PART ONE Did Hugo Chavez Speak Truth Or Lies?

By Peter Fredson

September 22, 2006

The President of Venezuela addressed the U.N. Assembly this week. His unkind references to the President of the United States, George W. Bush, made many people uncomfortable, electing a huge variety of boorish, loutish, obscene, and uncomplimentary remarks.

I have examined the Chavez speech in detail, and find that much of what was criticized was actually warranted. If we leave out the jingoistic and nationalistic sentimental fervor of "true" Americans to some statements, the rest is all fairly well documented.

Let's examine some quotes from President Chavez and see if they are factual or erroneous.

"The hegemonic pretensions of the American empire are placing at risk the very survival of the human species. We continue to warn you about this danger and we appeal to the people of the United States and the world to halt this threat, which is like I think that the first people who should read this book are our brothers and sisters in the United States, because their threat is right in their own house."

I have said much the same in my blogs. We are at the mercy of a cabal of neocon thugs that have taken over our country and turned it into a semi-fascist theocratic corporation.  They have usurped all governmental institutions and instruments, for personal profit and glory. They have involved us in a bloody, unnecessary and costly war through stealth, lies, deceit, secrecy and aggressive actions according to preconceived conspiratorial actions.

"The devil is right at home. The devil, the devil himself, is right in the house. A sword hanging over our heads."

"Yesterday, ladies and gentlemen, from this rostrum, the president of the United States, the gentleman to whom I refer as the devil, came here, talking as if he owned the world. Truly. As the owner of the world"

As I look back at my archive of bloggers I see that many would share this sentiment, although without using the religious rhetoric. Bush started this crap with his "Axis of Evil", with his "God told me to do it," and with his "Bring 'em on" swagger and bluster. George, Dick, Rove, and Rice all are ultra-aggressive chicken-hawks who are willing to give your lives for their bank accounts.  Bush is NO messiah, not even close. Swagger and smirk.

"I think we could call a psychiatrist to analyze yesterday's statement made by the president of the United States. As the spokesman of imperialism, he (Bush) came to share his nostrums, to try to preserve the current pattern of domination, exploitation and pillage of the peoples of the world."

Everyone knows that, as elections get closer, the Bush apparatus will use every trick, every dirty device, and every smear tactic, to remain in power. They do not intend to relax their hold on smaller nations, but intend to continue for world domination. That is documented.

"The American empire is doing all it can to consolidate its system of domination. And we cannot allow them to do that. We cannot allow world dictatorship to be consolidated."

Bush wants army bases all over the world to be able to crush any hint of dissent by utmost violence. Bush tries to control all the media, using whatever means are necessary to avoid criticism.

"The world parent's statement -- cynical, hypocritical, full of this imperial hypocrisy from the need they have to control everything."

Does any reasonable person dispute this claim? Is it not factual? Bush wants total control of media, of expression, of economy, of environment, of Congress, and of the courts.

"It's the false democracy of elites, and, I would say, a very original democracy that's imposed by weapons and bombs and firing weapons. What type of democracy do you impose with marines and bombs?"

Bush has no idea of the meaning of Democracy, Freedom, or Sovereignty. He makes a mockery of our utmost values. Imagine a soldier who just shot someone through the head, winning "hearts and minds" by giving the orphans some chewing gum or a chocolate bar? Does a sovereign nation harbor an occupying army with weapons at the ready? Is death and destruction a synonym for Freedom?

"The president of the United States, yesterday, said to us, right here, in this room, and I'm quoting, "Anywhere you look, you hear extremists telling you can escape from poverty and recover your dignity through violence, terror and martyrdom."

"Wherever he looks, he sees extremists. And you, my brother -- he looks at your color, and he says, oh, there's an extremist. Evo Morales, the worthy president of Bolivia, looks like an extremist to him."

Bush sees terrorists under every bed, in every closet, in every critic. For him and Cheney treachery is everywhere that they are criticized. Bush detests minorities and poor people, thinking they are cursed by his God for some 2,000 year-old sin.

"The imperialists see extremists everywhere. It's not that we are extremists. It's that the world is waking up. It's waking up all over. And people are standing up."

There were NO organized terrorists in Iraq before Bush decided to sucker our Congress and invade Iraq with his villainous "Shock and Awe."  Bush has killed more than ten times as many Iraqis as the Al Qaeda group killed in the Twin Towers, but still he is not satisfied with Muslim blood.  He is not satisfied with oil, with bases, with huge embassies, with his tanks and missiles striking anywhere in the world. He has no compunction against invading friendly nations to accomplish ill-gotten and immoral gain. His ego knows no bounds, he wants the world with his fence around it.

"We are rising up against the empire, against the model of domination."

What's wrong with that statement? I have seen a hundred blogs accusing Bush of imperial pretensions and preemptive aggression.

"But the government doesn't want peace. The government of the United States doesn't want peace. It wants to exploit its system of exploitation, of pillage, of hegemony through war."

Bush doesn't really want to leave Iraq. As long as he stays there he remains as a War President, above our laws, with contempt for our Constitution. Once he leaves, his only recourse is to go back to cutting brush and coupons, if not to face some sort of impeachment or court for gross contempt of laws and war crimes.

"It wants peace. But what's happening in Iraq? What happened in Lebanon? In Palestine? What's happening? What's happened over the last 100 years in Latin America and in the world? And now threatening Venezuela -- new threats against Venezuela, against Iran?"

 The same questions have been asked countless times in our blogs, without a single satisfactory answer from the Bush cabal. On the other hand he never has answered Cindy Sheehan either. Ah, well.

END OF PART 1

Originally posted to peter fredson on Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 01:28 PM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Who cares? (8+ / 0-)

    I rarely agree with Markos so much as I do with this post.

    Let there be sharks - TracieLynn

    by GussieFN on Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 01:31:03 PM PDT

    •  Totally agree (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      GussieFN

      The world leaders can stand at the UN and get into some kind of pissing match...every day of the week for all I care. We have bigger issues and we need to stay focused. Getting caught in the middle of this, regardless of who is the biggest a**hat, is futile and distracting.

      And we the Dems will get our noses bloodied for even getting close to this bar fight.

      All the problems we face in the United States today can be traced to an unenlightened immigration policy on the part of the American Indian. Pat Paulsen

      by SallyCat on Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 01:47:56 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  It's a RW issue. Let's move on. (0+ / 0-)

      Let the wingnutz scream about this one.  Maybe there'll be an epidemic of blood pressure problems amoungst the wingnut bloggers and talk radio mavens.  I frankly don't give a rat's ass about hugo chavez.

      "Facts are stupid things"-- Ronald Reagan 1988

      by dougymi on Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 02:12:57 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  yes, but... (3+ / 0-)

      to me, the shocking thing isn't that Chavez said these things at the U.N. this week, it's that these things haven't been said publicly a long time ago, and widely acknowledged as true. Chavez is just being treated like Howard Dean, for saying the capture of Saddam Hussein didn't make the U.S. any safer.

    •  We should care because (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      peter fredson

      Bush has tried to kidnapp, assasinate and overthrow this man.

      Pat Robertson has called for his assasination.

      He offered the US $50 oil when Katrina hit but Bush turned him down.

  •  If he had crafted his message (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    SecondComing

    more artfully, he could have been heard. He spoke the truth, but his hysterical rhetoric was such a distraction that it didn’t resonate.

    •  true...he had the perfect stage to make some (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Thistime, SecondComing

      very critical points and make them well, but instead he chose to grandstand and as such, was largely dismissed as being a whacko...he also validated bush's implication that Venezuela is an 'evil-doer' country.  

      The only thing that is keeping bush from doing something militarily about Venezuela is the fact that he'd pretty much kill the latino vote for Republicans across the country.

      Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

      by darthstar on Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 01:35:01 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  you mistake who his audience is (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        tankej, JayBat, darthstar, francislholland

        I have posted this in a comment elsewhere, but at the end of the day opponents of the US in a Chavez vein don't have any need to appeal to the American people - they will never get a fair rational hearing in the US media so why bother

        they know, as does much of the world, that the US is of the rails... international political opponents of the US come in many stripes, but they tend to see the same thing - there are two results of this current US pickle

        1. the US system really is a robust one, as we are all indocrinated to believe here at home (well those of you here since grade school i mean), and as a result will successfully self-correct and get back on track, being governed to the benefit of its people, and ceasing to be a dangerous bullying rogue nation on the international stage
        1. it won't, the system is too rigid and will fail to allow self-correction in which case the US spirals into an authoritarian (possibly totalitarian) phase not dissimilar to the Soviet Union or a non-Holocaustic Nazi Germany, beligerant and dangerous abroad, repressive and restricted at home

        thing is the world is different now - globalized in many ways... and ultimately totalitarianism fails... it always does... either softly, by managing its way out, or violently... either way the decline of America under scenario 2 is assured, which ultimately benefits the poorer nations of the world... without our wealth (and totalitarian regime cannot create wealth as effectively) we cannot support our bullying military in the long run

        under scenario 1 the self-correction leads to a more enlightened America where Chavez is vindicated anyway

        why be nice?  why not appeal to the world audience

        let's be real here - Bin Laden has a constituency for a reason, and it isn't all about radical Islam

        If no-one around you understands start your own revolution and cut out the middle man...

        by ResponsibleAccountable on Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 01:43:06 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  didnt resonate with whom? (12+ / 0-)

      look at world media reports

      it resonated plenty - it was perfect for the non-US audience

      do you honestly believe there is ANY way he could have phrased things or said things and been favorably covered by the US media?

      of course not - the US has been trained to refer to all oponents as crazy madmen - charicatured James-Bond villains bent on world domination

      If no-one around you understands start your own revolution and cut out the middle man...

      by ResponsibleAccountable on Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 01:35:38 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Right? Wrong? Chavez is a dick (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      redcardphreek

      If Chavez said "Water is wet" I'd say "Chavez is a dick"

      •  and that would be for what reason? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        SecondComing, bobdevo

        apart from the furriner with funny looks argument

        If no-one around you understands start your own revolution and cut out the middle man...

        by ResponsibleAccountable on Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 01:44:01 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  How about his appalling record (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          michael1104, redcardphreek

          of clamping down on his opponents inside Venezuela? How about his human rights record?

          Chuck Schumer is not the enemy

          by AnnArborBlue on Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 01:45:53 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  the only opponents being clamped down on (8+ / 0-)

            are the kleptocrats that used to run the country that tried to overthrow his legitimate election in a violent coup

            in such circumstances one has to be a little careful

            you kind of earn restrictions when you try to use violent coups to overthrow elected leaders because they threaten your financial interests

            If no-one around you understands start your own revolution and cut out the middle man...

            by ResponsibleAccountable on Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 01:49:13 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Well ... (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              michael1104

              let's not idealize Chavez, even if we can agree with his analysis of right-wing American imperialism. I think he's a left-wing authoritarian (some call him a crypto-dictator).

              •  crypto means nothing (5+ / 0-)

                he either is or isn't - and until he ignores an election that throws him out of power he isn't

                idealizing leaders is fruitless

                but knee jerk attacks are pointless

                and not recognizing a better situation is stupid too - the bulk of Venezuelan people are better off than they were under the previous kleptocratic regime

                If no-one around you understands start your own revolution and cut out the middle man...

                by ResponsibleAccountable on Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 01:58:52 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •   I hope you don't think (0+ / 0-)

                  I was launching a knee-jerk attack. I also hope you're not calling me stupid.

                  I think that Chavez' pouring money into the barrios for health and education and infrastructure has been great.

                  I do worry about his clampdown on media.

                  Also, Chavez has had to borrow heavily from Venezuelan banks to finance these much needed programs--depositing oil profits at about 5% and then borrowing at 14%--not a formula for sustainability!

                  I think it's too early to tell how authoritarian he will become, or if his economic policies are a case of present gain (partly to consolidate his popularity) at the expense of a future economic collapse.

                  P.S. I think one can be a dictator prior to ignoring an election.

                  •  clearly not stupid (0+ / 0-)

                    as you seem to recognize the situation is better - if you didn't - yeah that'd be pretty stupid

                    as to the macro arguments... well let's see how he fares compared to the other Latin American economies that follow more approved US led policies

                    If no-one around you understands start your own revolution and cut out the middle man...

                    by ResponsibleAccountable on Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 07:59:57 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

              •  Unlike Bush, Chavez was elected fairly, majority (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                tankej, SecondComing, eaglecries

                Unlike Bush, Chavez clearly wields the authority that was granted to him by a majority of the Venezuelan people.  That's not hero-worship.  It's the simple truth, and the truth is important, particularly when it comes to whether presidents have been fairly elected to exercise the power that they hold.  

              •  Oh, we can't have any left-wing around here! (0+ / 0-)

                Then the LORD said unto me: 'Out of the north the evil shall break forth upon all the inhabitants of the land.

                by curmudgiana on Sat Sep 23, 2006 at 07:26:27 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  is it okay (0+ / 0-)

              when Chavez attempts coups though? I guess that's acceptable because in 1992...it was Chavez, and Chavez can do no wrong! Right?

              "People place their hand on the Bible and swear to uphold the Constitution. They don't put their hand on the Constitution and swear to uphold the Bible." --J.R.

              by michael1104 on Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 01:56:11 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  straw man argument (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                tankej

                leaders do wrong often - means nothing

                If no-one around you understands start your own revolution and cut out the middle man...

                by ResponsibleAccountable on Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 01:59:24 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  please (0+ / 0-)

                  have you been hiding under a rock? All you have to do is read every single diary on him where you will find Chavez messiahnism, where people think he is a hero and does no wrong.

                  "People place their hand on the Bible and swear to uphold the Constitution. They don't put their hand on the Constitution and swear to uphold the Bible." --J.R.

                  by michael1104 on Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 02:01:48 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  yes - but your comment was in response to mine (0+ / 0-)

                    and i make no claims as such

                    are some people under-critical of fellow travelers - probably... but many on here are more critical of fellow travelers - so there is a nice balance...

                    at the end of the day if you are one of the millions of desperately poor venezuelans you are probably a bit better off than under the prior regimes or the current alternatives

                    If no-one around you understands start your own revolution and cut out the middle man...

                    by ResponsibleAccountable on Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 07:58:03 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

          •  ah - so the appropriate response to that is (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            tankej

            regardless of what he says to call him a Dick... got it

            that is probably the missing piece in international relations - once we get that out there in the open we can finally begin to make the world a better place

            If no-one around you understands start your own revolution and cut out the middle man...

            by ResponsibleAccountable on Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 01:57:12 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I never called him a dick (0+ / 0-)

              I'll gladly call him a thug though.

              Chuck Schumer is not the enemy

              by AnnArborBlue on Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 01:59:49 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  well you responded to my question (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                tankej, callmecassandra

                of the prior commenter "why would you call him a dick right or wrong" by saying because he has an appalling record

                thug is also not helpful

                one thing that always fails to come into these debates like the Castro is fundamentally a bad man debates is the simple fact that those they replaced were often far worse... and that improvement of a political nature is an incremental process not a leap to perfection - it is utopians that try to make that leap that you REALLY have to watch out for

                If no-one around you understands start your own revolution and cut out the middle man...

                by ResponsibleAccountable on Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 02:03:06 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  yeah let us worry (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            curmudgiana

            about Chavez's human rights record. Who does he think he is to criticize holy George.

          •  Rightwing propaganda! (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            tankej, eaglecries, peter fredson

            If you were going to say the things that Chavez says about Bush, you too would clamp down on the armed George Wills of your nation, lest they successfully aid a coup that Bush is only to anxious to foment.

            Who is clamping down more on dissent right now?  Isn't it Mr. GWB "I can tap the phones of anyone at anytime", imprison them without trial and torture them?  

            What is the greater insult?  That Bush tapped the phones of world UN leaders in the run-up to Iraq or that Chavez calls Bush a "devil"?

            NO ONE has ever accused Chavez of practicing the kind of torture that GWB says is absolutely necessary.

            This isn't about comparing their leader and "ours", but at least Chavez was elected by Venezuelans with world supervision of the elections, unlike Bush who cheated both times (Florida and Ohio).

            •  I can honestly say that I don't know enough (0+ / 0-)

              about Hugo Chavez or Venezuelan politics to form any opinion other than "the enemy of my enemy" is my ally for the time being. And George W. Bush is my White Whale.

              This world needs a bigger, drier pretzel -8.88 -5.08

              by SecondComing on Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 03:05:51 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  I might agree with Mark Fuhrman or OJ Simpson (0+ / 0-)

          But I don't care to have my name associated with either one of them

    •  It Was Highly Crafted And It Did Resonate (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      tankej, francislholland

      with the people he was trying to reach.

      We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy....--ML King, "Beyond Vietnam"

      by Gooserock on Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 01:50:00 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  to a non american citizen (0+ / 0-)

      his his hysterical rhetorics sounded like Bush's to me. Maybe his was a little more factual.

  •  Truth or Lies isn't the issues (0+ / 0-)

    it's generally not acceptable in public discourse between world leaders to launch personal attacks on another leader

  •  Did he mention his restriction of freedoms? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    michael1104

    Or is he partaking in some good old fashioned misdirection to avoid the log firmly planted in his own eye?

    He who controls the present, controls the past. He who controls the past, controls the future.

    by Common Cents on Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 01:35:25 PM PDT

    •  You're right about the beam. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      peter fredson

      I suggest we get rid of all these Republican enablers who think torture is OK 50% of the time as opposed to Bush saying it's OK 100% of the time. Even if Chavez is wrong, he is far down the list.

      •  Why can't we dislike both guys? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        michael1104

        Hugo Chavez is an arrogant tyrant that opposes any dissent and is not interested in free open debate or elections.

        That is independent of George Bush.

        He who controls the present, controls the past. He who controls the past, controls the future.

        by Common Cents on Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 01:43:07 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  what? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          peter fredson

          not interested in elections

          do you know ANYTHING about Chavez?  seriously?

          you need to start learning about the world outside of the US media filter...

          If no-one around you understands start your own revolution and cut out the middle man...

          by ResponsibleAccountable on Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 01:47:14 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  don't forget!!!! (0+ / 0-)

          He was "democratically elected" ...He was "democratically elected" ...He was "democratically elected" ...He was "democratically elected" ...He was "democratically elected" ...He was "democratically elected"

          Because of course, no "democratically elected" leader can tyrannical or be wrong or target of criticism. All you have to say is he was "democratically elected", and poof! You're criticism is out the window.

          "People place their hand on the Bible and swear to uphold the Constitution. They don't put their hand on the Constitution and swear to uphold the Bible." --J.R.

          by michael1104 on Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 01:49:13 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  well yes really (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            mariachi mama

            because making the world a better safer place is a slow process

            first you need to have acceptance that elections count, and that they are a method of endowing legitimacy

            only after many many cycles, once this is bedded in can you really make all the other changes necessary

            South America was the US back yard in the cold war - the legacy of anti-democratic actions lays the blame squarely at our door... so yes his democratic election is key - and we need to support him because of that

            as it is THE ONLY way of moving things forward

            If no-one around you understands start your own revolution and cut out the middle man...

            by ResponsibleAccountable on Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 01:55:49 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  so (0+ / 0-)

              as long as he was democratically elected, anything he does cannot be critized? Is that what you are saying?

              "People place their hand on the Bible and swear to uphold the Constitution. They don't put their hand on the Constitution and swear to uphold the Bible." --J.R.

              by michael1104 on Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 01:59:35 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  i don't know let me go read what i wrote (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                callmecassandra

                funnily enough no - i didn't say that

                straw man argument - attack some non-sequitor

                the point is not whether he can be criticized for actions... the point is that there is some legitimacy argument in his being elected and therefore dictator megalomaniacal references are kinda off-point

                If no-one around you understands start your own revolution and cut out the middle man...

                by ResponsibleAccountable on Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 02:14:28 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  dictator megalomaniacal references (0+ / 0-)

                  speak to his policies and tendencies, which other comments here have shown are exactly that. Bringing up the fact that he was elected does not give people the right to shield criticism (which is exactly what some people are doing) nor does it mean that he does not have autocratic tendencies, which he does. Suppression of the media and opposition (regardless of who the opposition is comprised of), electoral shennanigans, and court packing are not the actions of a true democrat, they are the actions of an autocrat.

                  Not to mention the kind of company he keeps. Saying he was democratically elected everytime someone criticized him is irrelevant. It doesn't matter how he got to power (and let's not forget Saint Chavez himself attempted a coup in 1992 of the democratically elected government), it is his policies and rhetoric that make people think he is a radical authoritarian.

                  "People place their hand on the Bible and swear to uphold the Constitution. They don't put their hand on the Constitution and swear to uphold the Bible." --J.R.

                  by michael1104 on Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 02:19:47 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  name one country in the world (0+ / 0-)

                    that doesn't keep bad company

                    okay - you don't get a freebie with Scandanavian countries... try again

                    we certainly fail that test... start with the countries ending in Stan

                    If no-one around you understands start your own revolution and cut out the middle man...

                    by ResponsibleAccountable on Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 07:56:14 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

  •  Come on...he's Hugo Chavez (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    DH from MD, Slim Tyranny

    Chuck Schumer is not the enemy

    by AnnArborBlue on Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 01:37:18 PM PDT

  •  The devil is a myth. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bobdevo

    Therefore what he said was not true.

    Flying Squid Studios - Cartoons to Rot Your Brain!

    by Arken on Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 01:38:26 PM PDT

  •  Screw Hugo (0+ / 0-)

    I really can't believe anybody is defending this guy. It's the kind of stupid stuff that keeps holding Democrats back because we all get labled.

    While people have every right to say what they think and express their opinion,it's nonetheless embarrassing to see a post like this on Dailykos.

    I'd like to ask Hugo why he loves dictators so much. He's a fricken hypocrite.

    •  You must miss the Castro Apologist (0+ / 0-)

      diaries, where folks here defend the longest serving dictator in the Western Hemisphere.

      'If Kos hadn't changed the rating protocol, I'd "3" you upside the head -- old school.' PBJ Diddy

      by PhillyGal on Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 02:04:50 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I don't know. We seem to be (4+ / 0-)

      trundling our way toward dictatorship pretty good right here in America.  Like this so-called compromise bill to gut the Geneva Conventions, based on the say-so of one man.  Or going after reporters for reporting what he wants to be secret.  And revealing what should be secret that he wants people to know.

      You know, what is the difference between a decider and a dictator?

      The eyes of the future are looking back at us, and they are praying for us to see beyond our own time...Terry Tempest Williams

      by Fasaha on Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 02:06:19 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I wouldn't volunteer to live under Hugo. (0+ / 0-)

      I value freedom of speech far too much. I see no moves by him to enshrine a system that checks his power and set rights of citizens in stone.

      He who controls the present, controls the past. He who controls the past, controls the future.

      by Common Cents on Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 02:06:49 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  My dog told me that Bush was The Devil (0+ / 0-)

    News at 11:00.

    How come the boneheads always get air time. The only Chavez that matters is Eric and hopefully he'll be a hundred percent against the Angels tonight.

    Kos is right. WTFGAD about Hugo?

    Just more rightwing wimpy talk. I am concerned about Hugo aren't you? He said we we're bad. Hide America!

    The Pope lays out some odd-ball history so he gets to take a crap on Muslims with deniability and Barko McBarkybark of the Gee-Oh-Gee-Hod declares war on Christ.

    How come the MSM makes some absolute non-player the SPOKESMAN for the whole Arab/Muslam/Islamic world.

    If the devil didn't exist it would be necessary to create him.

  •  I see a lot of hypocrisy from DK on this (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    PhilK, peter fredson

    DK contributors constantly say that they want Hillary Clinton to tell the truth because it will arouse and inspire the troops.  No more mamby pamby language.  Flay the guy!  

    Well, Hugo Chavez did exactly that, he flayed Bush with the unalloyed truth, and look how you people are reacting!

    If he had crafted his message (0 / 0)

    more artfully, he could have been heard. He spoke the truth, but his hysterical rhetoric was such a distraction that it didn’t resonate.

    Should Hugo Chavez have spoken in a more lawyerly fashion, like Senator Clinton?  Make up your fucking minds!  

    Apparently, you can't stand to see Bush flayed in front of the whole world!  You can't stand to see Bush international power challenged!  You don't want a world in which other nations have the temerity and independence to speak their minds, otherwise you would be supporting Hugo Chavez right now.

    YOU are the reason why Senator Clinton and others don't stand up and take Bush to task.  Is it more important that he offended Bush, or that EVERYTHING HE SAID WAS TRUE?!  

    Chavez riduculed Bush.  That, in itself is not important.  Chavez challenged the international domination of the world by the United States and warned the US not to invade Iran.  That is earth shaking!  With Chavez control of Venezuelan oil, he has a lot more influence over the US-Iran war than you or I do with our keyboards and our soon-to-be stolen chads.  

    The arrogance of Americans, even of the American Left, blinds us to the fact that we need strong and resolute international allies in the fight against Bush world domination, of which the Iraq war is part.  Chavez promises to be such an ally.  The more he speaks truth to Bush, the more he seems the antithesis of the "careful" Democratic politicians whom DK readers revile.

    Either you want careful politicians like Senator Clinton who refuse to really ream Bush, or you should applaud politicians like Hugo Chavez, wherever they are, when they ream Bush like no one has done before.  Make your choice, but don't be hypocritical and incomprehensible.  Don't be mamby pamby Americans who are the mirror image of the Democratic politicians whom you deem to be overly careful and obsequious.

  •  Who gives a shit (0+ / 0-)

      what Chavez said? He's a nobody.

  •  Please Don't Feed The Ego's (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    peter fredson

    Bush... "The Devil...?" I'm sure that megalomaniacal clown would like people to think that, along with Darth Cheney and Karl "Put Another Donut In The Deep Fryer" Rove, but the tiny, sad and quite pathetic truth of the matter is that these are morally bankrupt and corrupt human beings. Period. They all deserve to be held accountable for their crimes like any other person, not deemed untouchable like some omnipotent beings.

    I don't subscribe to magical thinking of any sort, and I won't attach supernatural qualities to people, even in jest. They are petty, delusional people. Dangerous? Sure. War Mongering GreedHeads? Absolutely. "The Devil?" I think that's giving them too much credit. Bush is at least a borderline sociopath, but I'm not going to build this stupid fuckwit up into something that implies he possesses otherworldly powers. He's no more or less human than a shiny innocent baby or Charlie Manson. I won't deify him in one direction or another, he doesn't deserve it.

    I don't know enough about Chavez to know whether or not he was just trying to make a point, trying to be funny, or if he really believes in 'the devil'... whatever. It doesn't matter really. He said it and I enjoyed hearing it, but that in no way suggests that I support Chavez or whatever it is he stands for. But as amusing as his comments were, I can't agree with his choice to elevate Bush and his ilk to the station of iconic demons.

    He should have just told the truth without all of the dramatic religious references, insults and crazy soundbites. He was on his way to saying what needed to be said, but it ended up in the kook file.

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