Daily Kos

Bond Market signals end of U.S. economic sovereignty

Sat Jan 28, 2006 at 09:23:15 AM PDT

Back in the mid-1990s, I studied the relationship between the financial system, and the physical economy. I thought it would be most interesting to update that investigation, but in the course of doing so, I found some preliminary data so startling that I though I should share it as quickly as possible. What I share below the skip highlights the impending end of the U.S. dollar as the world's reserve currency.  
My basic idea a decade ago was that with the deregulation of banking begun by the conservative revolution, there is ever-expanding gap between financial flows, as measured by financial turnover of various financial instruments, and the activity of the real, physical economy. For example, I compared foreign trade on one hand with foreign exchange trading on the other, from 1956 to 1990. The results were shocking. Measuring U.S. foreign trade as the value of exports, plus imports, plus international transactions (for services such as air flights, consulting, etc.), I found that total foreign trade was about 73% of total foreign exchange trading, which amounted to an estimated $41.0 billion 1956. This figure of around 75% remained stable for each of the years that the Federal Reserve did its tri-annual study of foreign exchange, up until 1980, when total mercantile trade fell to just under 10% of total foreign exchange trading. In other words, the amount of foreign exchange trading was pretty closely related to actual trade in physical goods and services, until 1980, when foreign exchange trading was suddenly ten times larger than actual trade in physical goods and services.

What had happened? Well, what is generally known is that Nixon took the U.S. dollar off the gold standard in 1971. What is less well known is that Nixon's hand was forced by a quite unanticipated threat of gold redemption by the British. In mid-August 1971, the British ambassador quite literally walked into the U.S. Treasury Department to request that $3 billion be converted into gold. It has been over a decade since I assembled and wrote this material, so I am fuzzy on the particulars, but I do remember being shocked and mystified at the prominent role played by the British in this drama.  The important point I want to make here is that after the financial and monetary debacles of the early 1970s, the U.S. economy was thrown wide open for all sorts of financial looting schemes and corporate takeovers. It is the beginning of the end, in effect, of the economic and financial sovereignty of the United States. This is the background you should always keep in mind as you whine and wail about the corporate-controlled mass media. What I now believe, is that the U.S. media would never have devolved as painfully as it has were it not for the likes of Rupert Murdoch, and the likes of Rupert Murdoch would never have been able to do what they did if it were not for the deregulation of the U.S. economy, and the U.S. banking and financial systems in particular.

Now, Stirling Newberry has written about the political and financial implications of the U.S. becoming what he calls "a giant "paper-for-oil" deal." How the cycle of deficits has kept the right in power in America.

To prevent investors in these countries from gaining control, the developed world, and particularly the US, is forced down a particular path: it must cut taxes on our wealthy, so that they match the taxes on the wealthy of Saudi Arabia.
Newberry is generally on target, though the data I gathered in the past few days suggests that at this point, we can stop worrying about foreign investors gaining control of the U.S. economy.

Essentially, the U.S. economy is a charade, increasingly incapable of physically meeting its own needs -- for cars, for steel, for electronics, for shirts, for pants, for shoes, even for food. The charade is financed by the rest of the world, most notably Japan and China, which produce goods for the U.S. market, and take in return U.S. dollar-denominated paper. These are essentially IOUs, whether they be commercial paper, corporate bonds, or U.S. government securities. The fact that most of the world's trade and finances is denominated in U.S. dollars has greatly assisted the U.S. in playing this shell game much, much longer than almost all observers thought it could.

On the face of it, this is not a bad shell game - if you're an American. You can ignore the uncomfortable economic realties of a shrinking industrial base and sorely under-funded physical infrastructure, and live high on the hog at the expense of them "furr-a-neers." But no charade can last forever, and the evidence is mounting that we are approaching end-game. Two weeks ago, Henry C K Liu Of debt, deflation and rotten apples wrote on AsiaTimes.com that the U.S. is about to experience the same deflationary disaster Japan has suffered for the past few years.

At some point, even paper debts cannot be repaid by printing more paper because of the exponentially ballooning interest spiral. Paying interest on unpaid interest will soon accelerate the debt crisis. Debt, if not repaid by gold, must be repaid by work; and the Fed, by printing more paper money, actually destroys what little real productive work is still available in the US economy. In fact the financial-services sector, a euphemism for the debt-manipulation sector, is producing most of the new jobs in the United States. Such jobs create financial value by pushing paper around at increasing speed....

What happened to Japan was that even with the world's largest holding of dollar reserves, the country was unable to ward off a protracted deflationary financial crisis caused structurally by exporting wealth for paper [i.e., dollar denominated IOUs: financial securities] that is useless in Japan....

The notion that a strong dollar is in the US national interest no matter who owns it is at best controversial and increasingly foolhardy. It is where the dollars are based that determines whether a strong dollar is good for the US national interest. A strong dollar in a global dollar economy is only good for offshore dollar owners, not US residents....

The real factor is that dollars are not spendable outside of the global dollar economy, thus are useless for domestic development in non-dollar economies. The dollar is not even fully useful in the US domestic economy because of low yields in the domestic US market....

Deflation is a problem that cannot be cured by monetary measures alone, as Japan has found out and as the United States is about to. Global deflation can only be cured by reforming the international finance architecture to allow international trade to be replaced by domestic development as the engine for growth....

The market favors trade over development because the market treats development cost as an externality. When someone other than the recipient of a benefit bears the costs for its production, for example education and environmental protection, the costs of the benefit are external to its enjoyment. Economists call these external costs negative "externalities". These externalities amount to a market failure to distribute costs and benefits fairly and efficiently within the economy. Globalization is basically a game of negative externalities. Inhuman wages and working conditions, together with neglected environmental protection and cleanup, are other negative externalities that protect corporate profit. It is by ignoring the need for development and by externalizing its cost that the market can deliver profitability to corporate shareholders. Development can only be done with a revival of national banking in support of a new national purpose of balance growth the will benefit all equitably, rather than the systemic transfer of wealth from the general public to a minority owners of capital, mistaken as growth.

I simply LOVE the part about having to shift from trade to national development, because that means having to address some real problems, such as giving 4 billion people working sanitation systems and access to clean water. That means nation building which was the big stone the neo-cons stumbled over in the planning for the Iraq war. You see, neo-cons do not like real economic activity, such as building sewage plants and laying water pipes. Neo-cons much prefer making a quick buck through one speculative financial scheme or another. And deregulation opened the door to legions of speculative financial schemes that never existed before. Of course, they can't sell deregulation as tilting the playing field in favor of speculators at the expense of producers. They sold deregulation as "improving the efficiency of markets." Any tendency toward re-imposing regulation is quickly and viciously slapped down as "socialism" or even "communism."

Now, if you're still with me, let's take a look at what I found. First, I found that the Bond Market Association has a very nifty table entitled Holders of Treasury Securities: Estimated Ownership of U.S. Public Debt Securities, which shows that foreign ownership of U.S. government debt has climbed from 17.0% of total holdings of $886.1 billion in 1982, to an estimated 49.8% of $4,063.8 billion ($4.06 trillion) in 2005. In the same period, ownership by individual Americans fell from 11.4%, to 5.4%. Particularly interesting is what happens to the percentage owned by American banking institutions: 18.2% in 1982, to 1.7% last year. That is one point seven percent. One and seven tenths percent. You have to wonder: What do the banks know that the rest of us don't? You really need to look at the Bond Market Association table, so go ahead, click on the link, we'll be here when you're ready to come back.

The major question is: how much longer will U.S. creditors be willing to accept dollar-denominated paper? So, it was off to the website of the Bank for International Settlements I went, to get the latest statistics on international credit. I suspect that most of you are not very familiar with the Bank for International Settlements, which can be described as the central bank for the world's central banks.

The interesting statistics I found in the most recent Statistical Annex of the BIS confirms a trend that will likely prove extremely troubling, if not downright disastrous, for the Bush administration in the next three years. Table 13B, entitled International Bonds and Notes (in billions of US dollars), by currency shows that of the $13.588 trillion total of financial securities counted by the BIS's reporting central banks (which did NOT include China) at the end of 2004, 37.0% were denominated in U.S. dollars, while 46.8% were denominated in Euros. This is a dramatic reversal from when Bush took office. At the end of 2000, the BIS counted $5.883 trillion in financial securities, of which 49.6% were dominated in dollars, and 30.1% in Euros.

In other words, there is already a move away from dollar-denominated paper; in fact, it has been going on for a few years now. The one caveat is that the BIS statistics do not include the People's Republic of China; being so large a trading partner with the U.S., including China may significantly alter these numbers. But, I believe that the trend away from dollar-denominated paper would remain intact.

Talking point against the Republicans: Why are they so eager to use military forces to defend what they say are vital U.S. interests, but are so blind to the immense damage being done to the U.S. economy and financial system?

One final point I found interesting in the BIS data, if I may digress. As I stated at the beginning, much of the financial flows in the world today have little or nothing to do with real economic activity. Most of it is speculation, pure and simple. And a lot of it is dirty or hot money. Table 9A, Consolidated Claims of Reporting Banks on Individual Countries is interesting in that it includes the statistical outliers of Switzerland, Luxembourg, Jersey (not New Jersey, mind you, but that little speck of land off the coast of England) and, ta daa, the Cayman Islands.

Jersey, the largest of the Channel islands in the English Channel, had an estimated 2005 population of 90,800. Its foreign claims were $109.5 billion. But the favorite hiding place for hot money is the Cayman Islands, population 43,100, with foreign claims of $612.280 billion. Now, these are foreign claims ON these locations, not BY these locations. In other words, this is an indication of how much in financial assets has been secreted away in these locations. I have included a few other countries, and their populations, that you can compare so you can see for yourself just how distorted the world's financial system has become.

The per capita numbers really make the hot money havens stand out.

Tags: Bond Market, financial derivatives, dirty money, hot money, deregulation, banking, physical economy, Recommended (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 163 comments

  •  Great work (4.00 / 4)

    This is really some great work! Any ideas on what the inverted yield curve means for the US?

    -1.63/ -1.49 "Speaking truth to power"

    by dopper0189 on Sat Jan 28, 2006 at 09:30:45 AM PDT

    •  ..won't certain rates.. (none / 1)

      ..have to go up to attract those wanting reserve dollars?  And I'm already starting to see some brokers start to promote 'risk-management' portfolios and 'down' strategies and commodity funds as a hedge against the dollar. But, I admit my learning curve is near verticle on this stuff right now, thus I'm enormously gratefull to the diarist and Sterling Newberry and others for the info.  Put out a tip jar.
      Thx

      "Since When Have You Westerners Accepted the Teachings of Christ?" - His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

      by sandmancan on Sat Jan 28, 2006 at 09:42:50 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  it is possible that someone can make a decision (4.00 / 41)

      Thanks for the kudos. I am hesitant to prognosticate, because I've been expecting a financial meltdown for over twenty years, and the bastards keep finding ways to patch the system. So, I no longer trust my own judgment. It reminds me of something Winston Churchill wrote in his history of World War Two: There is a great deal of ruin in a nation. Meaning, that an awesome, AWESOME amount of damage can be inflicted on a country before it reaches the breaking point. Look at the Civil War: even after Uncle Billy Sherman and his boys had cut a 40-mile wide swath of utter destruction clear across Georgia and the Carolinas to the sea, Jeff Davis and the Confederate armies were willing to keep fighting. As Jay Winik points out, it's only by Robert E. Lee deciding enough is enough, and directly violating the order of Davis to keep fighting, that we finally get the end of the war.

      Which brings up the point to be made - what happens in the future is not entirely fore-ordained. We are endowed with free choice, and it is possible that someone can make a decision or two that will change the course of history.

      Besides, I am not a trained economist or bond trader or stock analyst. I am just a humble itinerant book seller with a lot more book learning than street smarts.

      A conservative is a scab for the oligarchy.

      by NBBooks on Sat Jan 28, 2006 at 11:12:17 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Nevetheless (4.00 / 3)

        You made an excellent diary.
           I've been thinking that an official "education" in economics is actually a hinderance. I see so much unadulterated cr*p in the financial media these days that I think simple common sense is much more valuable in understanding what is going on.

          I think you should take this idea to the next level: what happens when the dollar stops being the reserve currency of the world?

          Deflation isn't the only possible outcome. Japan had deflation, but they also had a huge amount of personal savings and a top-notch industrial base.
           I think we are looking more like Argentina. They had deflation too, but their currency fell even faster than deflation contracted. Hence, they wound up with hyperinflation even while they had a depression.

        "A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government." - Edward Abbey

        by gjohnsit on Sat Jan 28, 2006 at 12:00:48 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Argentinafication (4.00 / 2)

          I have been using that term for two years now.
          Hyperinflation in a free-falling economy.
          One should ask, however, who might benefit in such a situation?  In doing do, one sees that the Bush administration's policies are not insane - they make perfect sense for those who installed him.
      •  Don't worry, they are now out of options... (4.00 / 4)

        the rubber is preparing to meet thy road. We are now an economy that basically manufactures one thing and one thing only, and that is houses.

        They have managed to keep things going by continuing to shift debt into fewer and fewer remaining assets in order to fuel more and more consumption and over-consumption. We are now down to the last thing that debt can be shifted into.

        The housing market is slowing (as bonddad had reported on), the available inventory of houses is at an all time high, indicating a significant over capacity situation, and foreclosures are also at all time highs.

        The refinancing market bas been keeping consumption alive, but that is coming to a close now as people are becoming saturated with the burden of debt.

        They cannot raise interest rates because it will kill of consumption completely as the debt servicing burden rises significantly, they cannot lower interest rates and give anymore money away because people cannot take on any more debt.

        They are out of options, the reality of economic situation has forced them to a checkmate, there are no more moves to make.

        I suspect that Bernanke is well aware of all of this and the mess Greenspan has made and is likely to let the chips fall now instead of later because later will likely get the blame put on him, better to let it occur now and have the blame land on Greenspan, this is likely one reason the actual 4th quarter GDP report came in without the usual manipulation of the data in order to drive wall street and make the president look good...

        And of course the market had really gone nowhere in 8 years now either...

        BTW great diary, I forget to mention it in my first comment!

        Thanks!

        What we do for ourselves dies with us, what we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. (Albert Pine)

        by laughingriver on Sat Jan 28, 2006 at 12:30:33 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  $2.5 Trillion in Durable Goods (none / 1)

          manufactured in US factories in 2005 according to the Commerce Dept - machinery, automobiles, aircraft etc.

          That's up 8.0% from 2004 and makes 2005 the best year ever in terms of the amount of US manufacturing .

          Just for context, the manufacturing sector of the US economy is larger than the entire Chinese economy.

          Always helps to check out the numbers with the commerce dept. or the bureau of economic analysis.

          •  Unfortunately... (none / 0)

            it is impossible to verify those numbers and additionally you cannot determine if the "numbers of things" is increasing or decreasing, it could just be that we are charging more for our airplanes and machines and making less and less of them.

            Also, do you know how they account for manufactured goods by US companies in other countries?

            Additionally, the US and the world market has increased significantly for manufactured goods and the US has been getting less and less of it, so just looking at an increase in dollars is not a good measure, especially since much of that increase could be as a direct result of the expansion of the money supply...

            Additionally, your measurement to the GDP of china is in Us dollars, a much better measurement is


            In 2003, China's GDP in terms of purchasing power parity reached $6.4 trillion, becoming the second-largest in the world.

            Purchasing power parity is a much better indicator and suggests that by that measure it is close to the United States in economic size today and could pass us soon using that measure.

            additionally a lot of economists think that China is significantly understating their growth...

            What we do for ourselves dies with us, what we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. (Albert Pine)

            by laughingriver on Sat Jan 28, 2006 at 03:22:05 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Just curious.. (none / 1)

            Who is buying all these US manufactured goods?  Machinery, aircraft, automobiles ect?  I wonder how much of that demand is from the military industrial complex and other government agencies.  If true how does this effect the economy?  

            Republicans need people to be stupid

            by strengthof10kmen on Sat Jan 28, 2006 at 04:01:24 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Durable goods is in part driven by house buying... (none / 0)

            and so not a clear cut indicator. Indeed, when house buying slows down, so will durable goods. And on another note, how much of those durable goods were actually made here and not just assembled here? I know that there has to be a certain percentage of US-made parts but am not aware of what percentage that is. AND my social security check increased by about 4% this year based on a stacked CPI that reduces government indexing increases. So that 8% increase could very well be simply inflation on PPI and a weakening dollar.


            -7.25/-6.41 Consumerism is the disease that allows the ruling classes to thrive; therefore, not buying is a small but necessary first act of rebellion.

            by sravaka on Sat Jan 28, 2006 at 09:37:30 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Great Points (4.00 / 2)

          And all true.

          We are now an economy that basically manufactures one thing and one thing only, and that is houses.

          This statement reminds me of a line from the opening chapter on Neal Stephenson's futuristic Snow Crash which I will paraphrase:

          The United States had global superiority on only four commercial products:  movies, music, microcode, and pizza delivery.

          Gawd. We are getting close to that vision.

          However, don't expect Bernanke to lower the boom. For the first time in Federal Reserve history in the United States -- starting in March 2006 (at the exact date the dollar will face its most profound challenge to sovereignty due to Iran forcing the petroeuro standard) -- the Federal Reserve will REFUSE TO DISCLOSE the monetary supply figures.

          That means they WILL NOT TELL American citizens how much money they print.

          Heh. It's a fabulous fucking fuck-fest for the plutocrats. I wouldn't worry too much about the shit hitting the fan just yet.

          Overnight News Digest -- Midnight. Every night. Be smart. Be there.

          by Pluto on Sat Jan 28, 2006 at 01:38:01 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  They will still publish m1 and m2... (4.00 / 2)

            The fed promises that we can get it from their reports if we try really hard, I'm going to put together the programming required to get m3 numbers from the data they publish in the flow of funds report...

            I really don't think it'll be that hard...

            What we do for ourselves dies with us, what we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. (Albert Pine)

            by laughingriver on Sat Jan 28, 2006 at 03:41:19 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  I build houses (none / 0)

            and I'm also blogging while drunk, but I'll take my chances because this thread is very informative.  Are you telling me I'll be fine?  I exist in a tiny little economic niche, building so-called "trophy homes" for the wealthy. I'm talking about homes in the 1-3 million range, in a part of the country where that gets you a lot more than you would get in LA or NY.  Seems to be no end to buyers in that price range, although my role in the process, on-site managing, yields me a decent salary but no part in whatever profits my employers make on these transactions.

            A lot of money gets circulated doing this, some of it hard cash into a local economy that is hungry for jobs and opportunity.  It is, in fact, direct "trickle down" economics, because we are blessed here with a still fairly pristine environment and lots of space, an increasingly rare commodity that the wealthy seems to be willing to pay for.

            I work daily with some of these people; some of them are assholes, and some of them are utterly charming and lovely, a delight to work with.

            My little niche, hard won at age 60, seems to be working for me. Are these people gonna keep on keeping me busy?  I sure hope so, much as I realise that the money I get to work with may be of questionable virtue. I rarely get to know if they got their money  (financially) screwing old widows or inventing a truly better widget. I doubt if the families of the workmen on these projects really care.

            don't always believe what you think...

            by claude on Sat Jan 28, 2006 at 09:03:54 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  except Nation building! (none / 1)

          We have come near full circle. Back to the colonial days where this nation began. Our "foot print" IMO in the middle east is there to establish a "new America". I think it will fail also. We are becoming over populated as a planet. We are running out of natural resources and we have had a false economy for nearly 20 years, not based on imports / exports, supply and demand, but floating debt and shifting currency. I'm also not an economist, just a business owner and a nurse. But it doesn't take a genius (which I am far from) to see this trend.

          If the gold standard is no longer used and our economy is floating on paper and debt then we must begin to establish a different "gold standard"! That is the "goldern rule" or as I like to now call it the "black gold rule", he who has the black gold, makes the rules!  Iran, Saudi Arabia and some smaller OPEC members have begun to shift to EUROS as there currentcy, not dollars. Only way to slow this or curtail it is to move to secure oil (the new gold standard). But this puts the US at odds with a lot of other nations.

          "Mercy, peace and love be yours in abundance (liberally)" Jude 2 Brother of Jesus

          by pinkpanther on Sat Jan 28, 2006 at 02:11:03 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  You're a good teacher (none / 1)


        and that was a great lecture. Your thread was clear and "good enough" for us laypersons to understand the history and the context of a complex bit of information. No mean feat--so thanks ever so much.

        Our entire infrastructure cannot withstand a major hit--look at Katrina. Nothing is happening. New Orleans has become Baghdad-like in that nothing is getting done, people feel abandoned, and Washington twiddles and ignores. This is the future--the media decides it's all just "old news" and it disappears from the radar.

        I wish people would try to understand information like this.

    •  An inverted yield curve (none / 1)

      has always forcast a recession.  But the Bushies would say that is so "pre 911".  By the way, does anyone know how much the interest on the national debt is as a percentage of the budget?
      •  here ya go.... (none / 0)

        $183 billion dollars in FY2005.

        Source:

        http://www.nationalpriorities.org/...

        They're calling our bluff and all we're holding is a Pelosi and a Hoyer.

        by arbiter on Sat Jan 28, 2006 at 12:17:05 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Thanks....... (none / 0)

          I'm mulling over what that could buy.
        •  Almost the same as Defense outlays (none / 0)

          Soon the debt will exceed the largest categoy of Fed. expenditures - national security.

          It is not impossible to see a time when almost all federal taxes are used to pay the debt, particularly if we must raise interest rates to attract purchase of our debt.  

          Recall, that Bush said that the Social Security Treasury Notes were just pieces of paper.  They may believe that this debt won't have to be repaid, but this isn't debt we owe to ourselves, but largely to others.  They will get repaid, somehow.

          The Democratic Party: We the People (7801)

          by JimPortlandOR on Sat Jan 28, 2006 at 03:38:25 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Hmmmm, lets go to the source on this... (none / 1)

          According to the Treasury Department it was 352 billion dollars in 2005

          However, it should be noted that the government, in a perverse Enron accounting scheme actually counts the interest it pays on the part of the debt for intra-governmental debt as income!

          However, that sum just gets added to the liabilities that future generations of Americans will have to pay so its best for us in the reality based community to count it for what it is, thus the real sum is 352 billion dollars.

          It is estimated that by 08 or 09 it'll cost as much or more than the defense budget!

          What we do for ourselves dies with us, what we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. (Albert Pine)

          by laughingriver on Sat Jan 28, 2006 at 04:55:06 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  thank you! (4.00 / 2)

            I knew the figure I'd posted originally was too low, but I couldn't find any other numbers...no surprise, really.  I'm sure it's a number our government is not too terribly proud of.

            They're calling our bluff and all we're holding is a Pelosi and a Hoyer.

            by arbiter on Sat Jan 28, 2006 at 05:42:04 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  No problem... (none / 1)

              I suspect the Republicans are quite proud if it, they make a bunch of money while reducing taxes on their rich friends who get most of that money and lend it back to us so our children will forever be indebeted to them.

              The ultimate shell game, its nice to have friends in the government who will make enormous amounts of money for you, the "Haves and the Have Mores, or as Bush said, his base"!

              It boggles the mind!

              What we do for ourselves dies with us, what we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. (Albert Pine)

              by laughingriver on Sat Jan 28, 2006 at 05:52:35 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  Ah ha........ (none / 1)

            so you're including the interest on the funds borrowed from SS.  And they count that as "income".  Good Gawd!
      •  Actually (none / 0)

        the yield curve inverted in 1998 and in 1966 and there was no recession.  The yield curve in the UK and Australia are both inverted with no other sign of recession.

        The risk curve, the difference between junk bonds and treasury notes is another indicator of recession.  A steep curve means that financial markets fear bankruptcy and demand a higher reward from junk bonds. Right now the risk curve is pretty flat as well, indicating a stronger economy ahead.

        •  All of the economic stats I track... (none / 1)

          and keep up with are and have been indicating that we are already in beginnning of a double dip recession...

          Look for things to start to deteroriate rapidly this year...

          What we do for ourselves dies with us, what we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. (Albert Pine)

          by laughingriver on Sat Jan 28, 2006 at 05:17:55 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  And which statistics and indicators would that be (none / 0)

            I have been coming here to dKos for 2 years and I have been constantly hearing that the economy is on the verge of a recession. In those two years we have have had solid real growth, a rising stock market and moderately good employment growth.

            I don't attribute any of the good news on the economy to the Bush Administration, the economic cycle has a dynamic all its own that is mostly  beyond political manipulation. But good news, mostly, it has been.  

            What's changed that's going to bring this expansion down?

    •  There is a simplier explanation for this (none / 0)

      Which is the US percentage of Global Government Debt has been decreasing for years.  As a result, dollar denominated debt is decreasing as a total percentage as the numbers below show.

      In a sense our debt was a source of economic strength that forced transactions to take place in US dollars.  

      Here are some highlights from some work I have done on OECD numbers.  Essentially, it devides the US Debt by the Global Government Debt.

      1980 US Debt:  US Debt 716 Billion, Global Government Debt 1,783 Billion
      Percentage of Global Debt that was US: 40%

      1985 - the height of the Cold War
      Percentage of Global Debt that was US: 41%

      1990 - Percentage of Global Debt that was US: 35%

      2000 - Percentage of Global Debt that was US: 26%

      2003 - Percentage of Global Debt that was US: 21%

  •  Chomsky (none / 1)

    has been talking for years about how the massive shift away from productive trade to financial trade has been one of the mechanisms for undermining democracy and holding down wages, benefits, etc.  This is interesting work.  I'd love to see more.
    •  BRussell (none / 0)

      Can you direct me to Chomsky's writing on this subject?

      Interestingness.org "Politics is the entertainment arm of Industry." - Zappa

      by CheeseMoose on Sat Jan 28, 2006 at 10:05:30 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I don't think that. (none / 0)


      But in China there is a massive increase in physically productive trade, and yet great inequality, poverty and exploitation of workers.

      The answer isn't finance but politics and lack of Enlightenment values.

      Fascism is indistinguishable from any parody thereof.

      by mbkennel on Sat Jan 28, 2006 at 10:56:09 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  While your statement about China (none / 1)

        remains true it is relative.  Workers in China have made great advances in income, conditions and life style relative to prior conditions in China.  It is far too simplistic to have the comparative remain by western standards.  China;s growth rate of 15-17% annually will naturally see advancement of their society generally, relatively speaking.
        •  Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but... (none / 0)

          Recent figures show individual Americans saving at a negative rate (spending slightly more than they earn) while the Chinese currently save at a 25% rate.

          They must me doing OK, relatively speaking. After all, one does not consider saving until his family is fed, clothed and sheltered.

          •  The US savings rate (none / 0)

            is negative, however it leaves out a lot of things you might think of as savings.

            The savings rate measures after tax savings. So money that goes into pension funds, 401ks or IRAs does not count as savings.

            Also, if you make a capital gain on the sale of stock or a house, that also does not count as savings.  The negative savings rate is more a reflection of how changes in the tax treatment of savings has caused individuals to shift where they are putting their money then an actual drop in savings.

            •  Daisy........ (none / 1)

              methinks you sound like one who is long trickle down options.  By the way, have you noticed pension funds are sooooo pre 911?
              •  Pension funds may be going the way of the buffalo (none / 0)

                but according to the Conference Board they control 40.7% of all US equity assets in 2003.  Which puts their asset holdings

                http://www.conference-board.org/...

                Given the choice of a promise of some future benefit that might be subject to the failure of the enterprise I once worked for or cold hard cash that I can have today, invest and keep and eye on, I will take the cash every time.... and so should you if you have any sense.

                •  Are you a Republican? (none / 0)

                  From your remarks I take it it's all about "You".  As I'm sure you know from your research few if any corporations offer pension plans today.  I'm too lazy to look it up but I imagine that 40.7 per cent is at least half is from from public employees pension funds and the rest is the dwindling corpse of a former era.  As for me, I've never depended on the kindness of strangers for investment advice.  
                  •  Actually (none / 0)

                    most businesses offer pension plans today. A declining number offer defined benefit plans.

                    I have been a Democrat since working in the 1972 McGovern campaign.

                    Just because someone argues from a point of view that is fact based does not make them a Republican

        •  Yup (4.00 / 3)

          Things in China would be far worse for typical workers if they hadn't developed their export industries. While there are large environmental costs of China's development, the rapid growth of their economy is allowing their government to impose environmental regulations that in many cases are stricter than those in the United States. Corruption undermines these, but China has had a serious corruptions problem for centuries — it's not a Western import. If anything, the West is nudging China towards rule of law.

          After WWII, the US had a large proportion of the factories in the world — our main competitors having conveniently presented theirs as bombing targets. As other countries recovered, and then new countries industrialized, there was no way the US could avoid a contraction in factory production.

          To keep what we still produce competitive, we need to be part of international trade. The reason the "free world" was able to outcompete the Soviets and Chinese was because our more open trading system was more efficient. To say at this point, "Enough of that. We've beat the Soviets so now we'll contract and rebuild our factor base," when that factory base makes the same things that Chinese and Korean factories make for a fraction of the costs, might work if every nation did the same. But if, say, the Europeans remain relatively free trade-oriented while we contract, they'll have the advantage of paying less for those Chinese goods — they certainly won't pay more just to get the same goods from us (trade is not charity) — and we'll be in the same uncompetitive position in the longer term as the Soviet Union found itself it.

          As for Americans not investing in bonds in recent years, that's just a reflection of the relative attractions of stocks and real estate. Is the American dollar going to fall? It very well could because of bad Bush budget policies. We're also in trouble because of a sharp decline in American educational accomplishment — I suspect typical American college graduates today are equal to high school grads 50 years ago. But the notion that what we need to do is rebuild our widget factories, or the related notion that there's something wrong or immoral about buying widgets from China, those just won't fly. They are simple — and wrong — answers to very complex questions.

          •  you mention that we (none / 1)

            must "produce" in a "free market" with competitive trade on the international market...
            To keep what we still produce competitive, we need to be part of international trade. The reason the "free world" was able to outcompete the Soviets and Chinese was because our more open trading system was more efficient. To say at this point, "Enough of that. We've beat the Soviets so now we'll contract and rebuild our factor base," when that factory base makes the same things that Chinese and Korean factories make for a fraction of the costs, might work if every nation did the same. But if, say, the Europeans remain relatively free trade-oriented while we contract, they'll have the advantage of paying less for those Chinese goods -- they certainly won't pay more just to get the same goods from us (trade is not charity) -- and we'll be in the same uncompetitive position in the longer term as the Soviet Union found itself it.

            but the problem that exists is that reagan and friends began moving us into a "service" economy - and it has accelerated with this current crop of fools.

            we no longer have the infrastructure or the workforce to produce what we need.  we have even gone so far as selling the factory equipment to china (as in our textile industry - specifically, pillotex in n.c.) after the firms shut down in bankrupcy or planned closures due to outsourcing.

            we have eliminated the working middle and lower class jobs that kept our tradesmen and women employed - and now, we're even outsourcing that "service" component to india, etc.

            i have watched in wonder as the heads of these big corporations have simply decimated the labor force and removed from the job market both the factories and people needed to make america self-sufficient.

            as the currency devalues and the rest of the world moves to the euro - we are left with no means for the populace to even EARN a living - much less compete for jobs and services!

            america is on the verge of a major collapse - and i fear it will be greater than the "great" depression of the 30's, for now, the government no longer has the ability to "create" jobs through a civilian corps or wpa type organization.  we are so far in debt, who will bail the body politic out of this mess?

            those getting richer simply move their money to those safe havens listed in the diary - to the cayman islands, jersey, luxomburg, switzerland, etc.  they are not about to risk their fortunes (stolen from the accounts of the american worker!) to save this country.  i'm betting, they will simply "relocate" to the "new" capital centor of corporatism - whichever that nation might be!

            the stranglehold that these corporate gougers have doesn't end with the closing of factories and outsourcing of jobs.  systematically, over the years, these same groups have bought up water and mineral rights that USED to belong to the landholder - leaving even the option of "living off the land" somewhat shakey.  if the farmer has to buy water to grow crops - how soon will that small farmer lose the land for non-payment of bills.  

            with the new bankruptcy laws, the only ones who will continue to lose the shirts off their backs are the little folks - those with nothing left to lose.

            i wonder what will happen when there really IS nothing "left" to lose - will the american spirit rise again - or will this nation simply roll over and die!

            •  feudalism (none / 0)

              to succeed, find a duke or whatever level of financial nobility you can get next to and provide the noble with something he wants, be it fresh eggs, financial services or architectural drawings.  If you can't be part of that process (that's what the "middle class" is) then you're stuck being a peasant.

              don't always believe what you think...

              by claude on Sat Jan 28, 2006 at 07:44:39 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  Chomsky.... (none / 1)

      ...has clearly demonstrated that as the interest rates invert the Industrial Military Complex loosens it's grip on the media outlets. The end of Western style imperialistic capitalism is clearly nearing it's inevtiable end. The IPO's of the Reality based markets such as gold, uranium, etc. can't possibly prop up the devaluation of the Dollar and the Euro.
         Syntactic Structures of the delapidated instituions bind the Fascist governemts to the greedy corporations who controll them through the extortion of enslaving the populace.
      He lays this out in "Some Notes on Economy of Derivation and Representation." (1989)
      This is not theretical mumbo-jumbo, Chomsky warned us of this exact scenario, he should not be ignored.
  •  This is a great diary (4.00 / 3)

    Recommended.  Keep putting out work like this and you will give ole' Newberry a run for his money.:-)

    Got Left off the Blogroll so I'll Pimp it Here NorthCoastOregon

    by OregonCoast on Sat Jan 28, 2006 at 09:42:07 AM PDT

  •  very nice Mr. Books (4.00 / 3)

    This is right up there with Sterling, Bonddad and Jerome's stuff.
    •  yes (none / 0)

      i was getting tired of those three bears. nice to get my daily fix of gloom and doom from someone else for a change!  ;)
      (just kidding, i avidly read those 3 diarists)

      "If being an elitist just means not the dumbest motherfucker in the room, then yeah, I'm an elitist." - Get Yer War On

      by sadair on Sat Jan 28, 2006 at 10:26:07 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Global "Bust out" (4.00 / 5)

    This is a very illuminating diary, Mr. Books. Thank you! Years ago Michael Hudson wrote a book entitled "SuperImperialism" which told the story of how the dollar came to be be the "hyper-hammer" of U.S. foreign policy. Essentially, Hudson's point was that the U.S. elites owned the global casino (trade is denominated in dollars) and took a huge cut of all the action. In the same way that brokers make money by "churning" accounts, making trade after trade and taking commissions, the U.S. elite has made money on this act of, as Mr. Liu puts it, "pushing paper faster." The "foreigners" put up with it for longer than most expected they would. But now the worm has turned, as it were, and foreigners are slowing down their participation in the dollar shell game. They have to do it slowly so the whole game doesn't collapse and with it their wealth (for they, the foreigners, actually create things, which is the basis for real wealth, where the U.S. by and large brokers exchanges between other makers but doesn't make things itself- other than bombs and weaponry.) The "bust out" is a term used in reference to the way the mafia takes over thriving businesses that are owned by people who've had the misfortune of becoming indebted to the mafia. The mafia proceeds to run up enormous debt on the business account of the poor bastard. It sells the stuff bought on credit at 100% profit and does that until the money to that business is turned off. At which point, they burn down the place down and make off with insurance money too. The U.S. elite have been doing this to the rest of the world since Reagan's first term, if not before. The Bush crew that's in there now are the original band of thieves who, while out of power, got better at the game.

    My question at this point is, how does a regular person prepare for the events that you say are coming our way?

    The Moe Sizlak Experience, featuring Homer Simpson.

    by lepermessiah on Sat Jan 28, 2006 at 10:27:19 AM PDT

    •  regular people (none / 1)

      What they can do...

      If you mean that 60% or so of the population that makes 30-60k a year and is leveraged up to their eyeballs in debt? Almost nothing.

      The people who could do something mostly are shortsighted and are investing in the wrong things to save themselves.

      Maby who do know what is happening are traitors. And that's not too harsh a term for those willing to stay in the game while watching the rest of the country go down the tubes. They are the guys who dressed as women to get on the last lifeboat from the titanic.

      fact does not require fiction for balance

      by mollyd on Sat Jan 28, 2006 at 10:40:16 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I fully subscribe to what Stirling Newberry wrote (4.00 / 3)

      I fully subscribe to what Stirling Newberry wrote at the end of It is Still a Boom, It Still feels like a Bust w/poll

      The simple one size fits all answer is to stop wasting money - eat out less, pay down your credit cards, make sure you have the right amount of term life insurance, cancel entertainment expenses that you don't need - these will do you more good than timing the crash. When the crash is about to hit, we will know, they send big loud signals.

      Most of all - invest in your relationship. A divorce does the same thing to your assets as a stock market crash - and worse, things aren't cheap on the other side. Economists talk about "opportunity costs" - spending an hour on your primary relationship is an hour better spent than trying to find the next hot stock.

      For investing - invest in inflation that the fed thinks is good. For a long time that was housing inflation. Now it is energy inflation. In stocks - buy index funds of the major world indexes - US, France, Germany, UK, Tokyo - and in major oil companies. When the fed gets serious about energy inflation - it will be time to sell. But regardless of who takes power, the US is going to have to put huge amounts into electrical power generation and transportation generation - we are going to spend almost a trillion dollars a year on these projects. Invest in them for the long term.


      A conservative is a scab for the oligarchy.

      by NBBooks on Sat Jan 28, 2006 at 11:18:35 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  but when the rainy days keep coming... (4.00 / 3)

        Back in the day when I had a decent income, I was a saver. Put away 10% of my income every year. Started a business. Then my business partner died, I took over. My husband died just as my kids were reaching college age. This cut my income to less than half. I made the choice to educate my children. Ten hard years can wipe out the work of thirty frugal years with ease.

        fact does not require fiction for balance

        by mollyd on Sat Jan 28, 2006 at 11:56:16 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  That's very good--invest in people... (none / 1)

        Thanks for adding this, as well as an interesting post.

        Kind of helps one put it in perspective.

        Oy, what's a Dem to do?

        by rosabw on Sat Jan 28, 2006 at 12:09:23 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  When I read Sterling's end of his diary (none / 0)

        a large part of me wanted to scream.

        The essence of capitalism is the constructive use of debt.

        The idea that you shouldn't buy a house, or shouldn't borrow to start a business is asinine.

        Is debt good?  You can only answer that question before you first ask what you use the credit to buy.  If you buy a house, start a business, invest in productive assets it is a wondeful thing.  If you simply use it to go to Vegas it is a bad thing - unless you have the income to repay it.  

        The idea that debt is a bad thing in and of itself is economic illiteracy.

        •  What matters is allocation of capital. (none / 0)


          Debt isn't the problem, as you say: it's what you invest the debt in.

          If you invest it in something that pays off for a long time at a higher rate than the debt, you've benefitted.  

          One example is government borrowing to fund public-sector science and engineering research. (I have a dog in this personally I admit).

          Fascism is indistinguishable from any parody thereof.

          by mbkennel on Sat Jan 28, 2006 at 03:05:37 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  I agree... (none / 0)

          ...but I think we on the cusp of a paradigm shift.  I fear peak oil will mean the end of capitalism.  We cannot grow the economy while available energy is shrinking.  At least, not for long.

          There's a reason why usury was considered a terrible sin in the ancient world.  It's the difference between a steady-state economy and growing one.  

          "Anyone who believes exponential growth can go on forever in a finite world is either a madman or an economist." - Kenneth Boulding, economist

          by randym77 on Sat Jan 28, 2006 at 04:10:12 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  I'd be interested to hear your take (none / 0)

    on the most likely scenario going forward....Most econ folks seem to be predicting more inflation as, in terms of political pain, it is usually seen as the lesser of 2 evils. You however, seem to be anticipating Deflation (Depression?)
    •  China will probably keep the game going for years (none / 0)

      As I posted above, I am not a trained economist or bond trader or stock analyst. I am just a humble itinerant book seller with a lot more book learning than street smarts. However, if you read the entirety of Liu's article he argues that the world trade system can only go so far because it is based on looting. I think he does not take into account that while Chinese workers are being looted, and suppressed, there IS a massive construction boom of Chinese infrastructure going on that I bet will keep the game going for years. After all, a new Caterpillar D9 goes for a few hundred thousand. That's an awful lot of cheap plastic toys!

      A conservative is a scab for the oligarchy.

      by NBBooks on Sat Jan 28, 2006 at 11:27:18 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Not looted (none / 1)

        The Chinese workers who have factory jobs are doing fine. The wages they're making are enough to live far better than their parents could. They are not being "looted." The people being looted in China are the peasants, who are having prime land expropriated for factories, and who are unable to get legal residency permits to move to the cities to take the factory jobs which pay many times what they can make as farmers, even if they keep their land.

        But then millions of peasants were starved to death during the Great Leap Forward, so even there relatively most peasants are doing better under pseudo-capitalism than they were under straight Communism.

      •  situation (none / 0)

        1. as long as there is apparent 'improving' life condition, nobody in China cares if they are 'looted' or not. That's just the nature of 'development. Currently China has break the hard $1000 GDP/capita. It will go in stable cruise until it hit fairly hard ceiling of $10,000.  But it won't be for another decade.

        2. The problem? China is accumulating dollar at intense rate simply because it's size. They are going to have serious hard time recycling that within a year or two. It'll be massive. Nobody knows  what suppose to be done.

        Use Tor and PGP on the net. (google it)

        by fugue on Sat Jan 28, 2006 at 04:31:54 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  what if the crash comes after Shrub (none / 0)

      and what's to stop GOP from blaming our Democratic President for it?

      McCain is not a moderate, a maverick, or a man of integrity.

      by marjo on Sat Jan 28, 2006 at 11:52:52 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  True,,,,,,,,,,, (none / 0)

        A world of hurt awaits a Democrat president.  And it won't matter that the blame belongs to Bush.
        •  that "world of hurt" is going to (none / 0)

          be for ALL of us for quite a few yearsdecades to come!

          this nation is in so much trouble!

          and the sad part, all people had to do was look at bush's history of bankrupting every thing he touched to know that it would happen to the country, as well!

          the sick part of all this is that THIS is the plan the neocons had in mind all along!  move the money to the top so when it "devalues" - they will still have enough to maintain the lifestyle that they feel they are entitled to have!

  •  Iran Oil Bourse may be a huge threat to the dollar (4.00 / 4)

    Something that has not been covered here on dKos much is the possible threat of Iran's planned Euro-denominated oil trading system. Because oil is traded in dollars, countries need to maintain reserves of dollars to buy oil. Setting up a Euro-based exchange could lead to huge reductions in dollars held by other countries, and lead to a big fall in the dollar. Some say this is a real reason behind Bush's threats against Iran.

    This has been covered at least once here on dKos.

    See also some external articles:
    OpEdNews.com: Iran's Oil Exchange threatens the Greenback
    Globalresearch.ca: The Real Reasons Why Iran is the Next Target: The Emerging Euro-denominated International Oil Marker
    Energybulletin.net: The Proposed Iranian Oil Bourse
    InformationClearinghouse.info: The Iranian Threat: The Bomb or the Euro?
    Aljazeera: Iran - a threat to the petrodollar? and Will Iran's oil kill the U.S. Dollar?

    •  Iranian oil bourse currency: Not really important. (4.00 / 3)

      I don't think this is very important.  I think Jerome, our own oil guy on DKos has debunked it.

      Euro/USD is the most liquid financial market on the planet.

      You can turn a petroleum future in Euro into a petroleum future in dollars by combining it with a dollar/euro future transaction.   There's little doubt that big banks already do this for their clients.

      Therefore there is no real need to hold dollars and euros in one versus another if you can translate from one to the other when necessary, as is exactly the case.  The choice to hold dollars or euros will not be based on an arbitrary denomination of a financial instrument, but more real factors, like what is the interest yield on each, and what in what currency are most of your fixed costs.

      Much oil is contracted off the exchanges, and can be settled in long term contracts in whatever currencies are mutually acceptable to the parties.

      Even ones based off indiciative future prices can be adjusted with currency hedging.

      However, one thing which would really hurt the Iranian oil bourse is if Iran does in fact threaten to cut off exports.   To be reliable and get liquidity, the market participants have to know that the regulators will in fact make every attempt to honor transactions and make physical delivery.

      By that matter, it coudl be in the West's interest to have an Iranian oil exchange operating as the people in Iran who benefit from having one will have power and motivation to keep the oil flowing no matter what, and thereby moderate political actions by the Iranian government.

      Fascism is indistinguishable from any parody thereof.

      by mbkennel on Sat Jan 28, 2006 at 11:08:26 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Thanks, (none / 0)

        I had so far only seen one side of this argument. These things are often not as dire as the most alarmist sources suggest (which is probably what I've found), but still, I think it's one more cause for concern.

        I hadn't noticed any discussion of this by Jerome, and I normally read and often recommend his diaries.

      •  But Nations DO hold Dollars (none / 0)

        The US dollar is the world's reserve currency because nations know that they have to have dollars to buy oil.

        Like commodities, the value of the dollar goes up and down, so nations wisely buy dollars when they are relatively cheap and hold them in reserve in order to buy the oil they will need in the future.

        Because nations buy and hold dollars, demand goes up, increasing the value of the dollar.

        That's my guess, anyway.

      •  Well... (none / 0)

        The issue comes up with the huge amounts of dollars being held already. The Chinese and anyone else can only do three things with dollars,

        1. Bring them home
        They can bring them home by exchanging them for the national currency, they would have to do this by significantly increasing the money supply of their currency. This would cause massive inflation in their country.

        2. Purchase us goods and services.
        Really now, is there much the US still offers to any country besides weapons and aircraft that any country needs to come to us for. We don't manufacture anything that anyone needs and quite frankly our services are not that much in demand. This will also have the negative effect of significantly inflating the money supply here at home as all those dollars are returned to the US,but not to worry because we really have nothing to offer anyone anymore.

        3. Purchase oil.
        Our dollars are good for oil, and expect China and Japan to start using them to build up energy reserves, the unfortunate problem with this is as all those extra dollars they hold are soaked up by oil we can expect that the price of oil will rise significantly, which is going to continue to increase the trade deficit, which means we'll have to make more money and more people will have to agree to purchase it and on and on.

        And of course, the oil producing nations can really only do two thing with all of those dollars, purchase US goods and services or purchase US weapons, otherwise having a bunch of dollars does them no good really.

        Enter the Euro, perhaps there are things the Euro zone has that these countries can actually spend their money on rather than continue to hold more and more worthless pieces of paper?

        Don't look for them to dump any American paper, but look for them to start purchasing energy with it as it is surely an asset that is rising in value and look for them to start doing more and more trade in Euros and the things Euros will buy...

        What we do for ourselves dies with us, what we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. (Albert Pine)

        by laughingriver on Sat Jan 28, 2006 at 12:49:00 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  There is still a lot the Chinese can buy (none / 1)

          with their dollars.

          How about real estate. When the Japanese went through this same cycle 20 years ago they bought up premier US real estate including Rockefellar Center, Pebble Beach golf course just to name a few.

          There are US companies, the Chinese tried to buy an oil company no long ago. There are still trillions of $ worth of US based companies on the NYSE and NASDAQ and more being created every day.

          The Chinese will run out of dollars way before we run out of things to sell them.

          •  And I have heard (none / 0)

            that Micrsoft and Intel have some interesting products.
          •  So we'll start selling all of our land to... (none / 0)

            communists?

            Sorry, but I don't think it's a good idea to start giving them our land in trade for their goods and services, plus I don't think that the aura of American real estate is as enticing to the Chinese as it was to the Japs in the 80's.

            Given the global war for oil underway, I think they are more likely to use the money to purchase oil and build reserves up, this in fact was mentioned by them recently.

            Additionally, I'm sure you remember the stink that was raised when they came calling for our oil companies.

            Don't get me wrong, there will be some things they will get from us, but it'll not come close to filling in the trade cap with them, if they were interested in American goods and services though, they would be already purchasing them and would not already be running such a large trade surplus with us.

            Services are the easiest thing to be outsourced and the American manufacturer is no more relative to the world market share these days...

            What we do for ourselves dies with us, what we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. (Albert Pine)

            by laughingriver on Sat Jan 28, 2006 at 03:03:46 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  What the Chinese want. (none / 1)

          The Chinese have a rapidly increasing desire for European luxury goods, as the nouveaux riche back in China want to display their affluence and good taste, just as always.

          European/Chinese trade is reasonably balanced.

          But the US doesn't make anything the Chinese want, except high-tech weapons, and we aren't going to sell them that.

          Economically it would be more rational to peg their currency against euro than the dollar, but the Chinese aren't playing by capitalist rules.

          They're mercantilists and their goal is the strategic elimination of US industrial capacity.

          Fascism is indistinguishable from any parody thereof.

          by mbkennel on Sat Jan 28, 2006 at 03:10:59 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Your dead on, anone who does not realize... (none / 0)

            that the Chinese are at war with us economically and otherwise is naive...

            They should not be underestimated, they have the additional advantage of not being burdened with the bureaucracy of democracy, meaning that they are much more nimble and able to change course than we are as a result...

            What we do for ourselves dies with us, what we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. (Albert Pine)

            by laughingriver on Sat Jan 28, 2006 at 03:28:15 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  huh? (none / 0)

        There is no guarantee the oil future will be totally convertible between euro/dollar. Observe how Russia stop delivering gas to europe and now suddenly, the smooth exchange is disrupted.

        Now imagine, China dumping dollar by buying ALL available oil assets, and Iran using dollar to "BUY" oil to effectively change oil from asset to value store vehicles.

        then what?

        you think there is enough oil to be 'converted' freely between euro/dollar if dollar is collapsing?

        heh... I for one is shorting dollar pronto when that situation is near.

        Use Tor and PGP on the net. (google it)

        by fugue on Sat Jan 28, 2006 at 04:35:29 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Absolutely Right (4.00 / 2)

      I trade the Forex, which provides a completely unbiased lens on what currency flows mean at the geopolitical scale.

      Beginning in March, the US will be forced to begin buying a significant amount of its oil with euros. If that should come to pass (and it certainly will unless we wipe Iran out of existence in March) the US economy will take a staggering body blow. (Much to the thrill and delight of the rest of the world, I might add, even though it will affect their economies to some degree.)

      Imagine The US having to exchange dollars for euros (at demand-driven market prices) in order to buy oil. Oy! A sustained petro-euro will stagger the US economy -- on the broken back of its citizens and workers.

      For some reason, these realities -- realities that make me money trading against the dollar (EUR/USD) -- make some people rabidly foam at the mouth yelling "conspiracy theory!"

      Of course, if the US destroys Iran militarily in March, then I will trade against the euro, because the sovereignty of the dollar will be saved for another year or so.

      Iran's nuclear program --- pfffttttt! People are so dumb when it comes to money.

      Overnight News Digest -- Midnight. Every night. Be smart. Be there.

      by Pluto on Sat Jan 28, 2006 at 11:19:41 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  asdf (none / 0)

        if what you say is so, why has it not affected (apparently) the EUR/USD relationship so far?  The two currencies have been remarkably stable for the last year or so.
        •  Absolutely Right (none / 0)

          That is a long term position.

          The trigger point will not be until March, when petrodollars will change to petroeuros. I have options placed to catch the dollar plunge on the way down in March (if the US does not bomb Iran).

          Meanwhile, I profitably day-trade the EUR/USD, which is in a holding (wait and see) position and trending down slightly since February.

          Overnight News Digest -- Midnight. Every night. Be smart. Be there.

          by Pluto on Sat Jan 28, 2006 at 12:49:25 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I'm holding Euros too (none / 0)

            because I can't see how the dollar can hold up long-term with our large current account deficit and budget deficits. Not day trading, just holding for expected long-term trends. In 2005, the predicted fall didn't come, in fact the dollar did rather well. There are also other currencies that aren't predicted to do well, the New Zealand dollar is predicted to fall by as much as 20% due to deficits that aren't much larger than ours. I don't know how much more pressure this petroeuro thing will bring to the dollar or if it will finally bring on a fall, but we'll see soon enough.  Others like bonddad also raise concerns frequently.

            One counter-argument, though, to some of the conjecture in the articles I linked about the Iran Oil Bourse being related to the dollar rather than a nuclear threat is that if these petroeuros harm the dollar, they should help the euro. However, I'm hearing the same strong words against Iran coming out of Europe. This makes it hard to believe this Iran nuclear crisis is really about protecting oil revenues from moving to the Euro.

            If Jerome has debuked this Iran Oil Bourse theory in one of his many countdown to $100 oil diaries, I've missed it.

            •  I think the Euro (none / 0)

              is every bit as in danger as the dollar is.

              Both are overvalued.

            •  What you hear... (none / 0)

              Is political posturing and fake word-sentiments. Par for world leaders. Plus just because the euro is strong (or the dollar strong, for that matter) doesn't really matter unless you're playing the game OUTSIDE of those nations.

              Sort of like a cock fight, where you're not the cock. You're the bookie.

              As for Jerome, he's right about one thing -- Maryscott O'Conner is fabulous. As for his take on this issue... nahhhh. I don't think so. Not this time.

              Overnight News Digest -- Midnight. Every night. Be smart. Be there.

              by Pluto on Sat Jan 28, 2006 at 01:48:13 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Unfortunately, (none / 0)

                if the dollar falls, it's liable to take the entire world economy down with it (and is a reason why China supports the dollar, to support its own exports), so buying Euros, or anything else, may not provide much protection. I don't know too many ways of avoiding the effects of a dollar fall, other than maybe buying gold, which is already very high (that others see this problem too is probably why), or diversifying, which holding some Euros helps to do.
                •  Sure you can profit (none / 0)

                  Learn to play the forex.

                  http://forex.com/... (This is just one of many, many explanations.)

                  It's cheap to get started.

                  Study hard, start paper trading today, and you can make millions on the fall of the dollar. Unless you're one of those folks who insist on going down with the ship.

                  Overnight News Digest -- Midnight. Every night. Be smart. Be there.

                  by Pluto on Sat Jan 28, 2006 at 02:13:52 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I've shied away from day trading, (none / 0)

                    either in stocks or currency, because I've heard too much about risks.  You have to beat the cost of the trades, for starters.  But if you're doing well, more power to you.  Since I work during the day, I don't think I could devote the time to make a successful day trader anyway.  I instead picked up on a suggestion from bonddad, I think it was, and bought foreign currency through Everbank.  I also have some money in foreign stock mutual funds, which have so far done better than the currency.
          •  I've been thinking this was going to happen for a (none / 0)

            year and a half.  I have money in an International unhedged bond fund.   the value has been going down down down. I'm assuming it's a good investment because I still think that the dollar is going to fall.

            I have mixed feelings on whether I want that to happen or not.  But is there anything else I can do?  

            Of course, if the US bombs Iran, it's going to be hard to worry about money. We'll have so much else to worry about.

            •  I Don't Know-- (none / 0)

              It's hard to imagine that we'd be either invaded by a world war or overrun with terrorists. We'd have some big problems yes but somehow my financially and militaryily uninformed gut thinks that most of the retaliation or blowback we'll get will boil down to money, more than violence etc.

              Well, money, and keeping tight lipped about criticizing the empire.

              We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

              by Gooserock on Sat Jan 28, 2006 at 04:28:24 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  Nonsense (none / 1)

        The global economy consumers roughly 84 million barrels of oil a day. Even at $100 a barrel that is only $8.4 billion in currency value.

        Globally, Forex trades in the trillions of dollars every day. Even an $8.4 billion transaction in this context will barely cause a ripple.

        You don't know what you are talking about.

        •  Agree mostly. (none / 0)

          It is true that a small fraction of underlying trade-related flows can carry a much larger speculative flow along with it, but the idea that the US will suddenly have to pay for everything in euros is silly.  A large fraction of oil consumption is negotiated party to party directly, off the exchange.

          And it doesn't matter---because changes between oil/euros/dollar are all free, unpegged markets, so yes as the dollar declined late 2004 and early 2005, the price of oil in dollars went up a lot more in the US than the oil price in euros in europe did, and we suffered relatively more.

          Fascism is indistinguishable from any parody thereof.

          by mbkennel on Sat Jan 28, 2006 at 03:14:38 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Your right... (none / 0)

            Most of the oil will still be traded on the open markets in New York and in dollars...

            The US will always be able to purchase oil in dollars...

            What we do for ourselves dies with us, what we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. (Albert Pine)

            by laughingriver on Sat Jan 28, 2006 at 03:46:58 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  I give you a hint (none / 0)

        I give you one scenario that nobody hasn't begin considering yet.

        1. Iran start conducting global economic war. They stop selling oil to anybody except in their burse.

        2. They are dumping their dollar holding, by "BUYING" oil. (yes that's right, buying.) Why shouldn't they? Their dollar assets is about to be nullified by Bush, so might as well spend it to win the war via soft power.

        The effect? dollar collapses in incredibally super fast way. If that scenario happens, I give it 8-10 months till everything collapse.  If Bush still acting as if, and create ever larger market panick, 6 months top.

        This will be the "argentina" scenario. Everybody panicking and dumping dollar, buying oil, and taking out money from US banking. Citibank and GE will collapse first.

        Use Tor and PGP on the net. (google it)

        by fugue on Sat Jan 28, 2006 at 04:40:56 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  hmm (none / 0)

        i've been thinking about buying euro's for some time now. and just recently became an affiliate of a forex system (i'm an seo)

        guess i have a learning curve over the next couple weeks as I also build out a forex site eh?

        Viva la Open Source! Download Mozilla Firefox and leave explorer forever!

        by circuithead on Sat Jan 28, 2006 at 06:48:42 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Krugman (none / 0)

      actually the ur-debunking belongs to Krugman in his calculations on what the value of the US dollar as a reserve currency is.

      What matters, at this point, is not whether oil trades in dollars, but whether it becom