Daily Kos

Driving Away Gays, Lesbians, Creativity and Difference

Tue Jan 03, 2006 at 02:05:06 AM PDT

A Jan. 2 article by Stephanie Innes in Tucson's Daily Star tells the story of a same-sex couple who moved to California because Arizona does not recognize the two women's partnership, nor their relationship to their son.

Like most other states, Arizona law does not allow unmarried couples to do what's known as second-parent adoption - when the non-biological parent adopts a partner's child. Stepparents in heterosexual unions can adopt the children of their spouses in Arizona. Gay couples can be foster parents. And gay people, as long as they are single, can adopt. But couples like the Soterwoods, who can't legally marry here, can't both be parents of a child.

Full story here

Here's yet another example of how intolerance is not just morally misplaced, but economically stupid. It's been pointed out that gays and lesbians, on average, are more educated, earn more, and spend more. Notice the cities around the country that have initiated tourism programs specifically to attract G&L travelers. Why? Because they're a good market; they travel and spend. While some in the business community might be uncomfortable with these schemes, because even mentioning this particular target market appears to sanction the lifestyle, they generally go along because of the associated financial benefits. (Much the same way some states passed MLK Day primarily to avoid convention boycotts.) It's also no secret that the cities which are the most tolerant, say San Francisco, have the healthiest economies.

In his book The Flight of the Creative Class, urban planning guru Richard Florida describes how our country's increasing intolerance of otherness - other lifestyles, religions, ethnicities, nationalities, politics, or ideas - has a similar effect. Clearly, many people who intended to study, vacation, live, or work in America no longer want to. Either they don't feel welcome or they do not approve of the administration's warmongering and arrogant rejection of other worldviews. Others who may still want to travel here are forced to jump through so many hoops that they often give up. As a result, overseas graduate student applications have fallen precipitously, academic associations hosting international conferences are meeting elsewhere, researchers are moving their studies and taking their grants to more accepting countries, and travelers aren't bringing their wallets here.

As Florida sums up the problem:

The United States today faces its greatest competitive challenge of the past century, perhaps of its young life. The reason is basic: the key factor of the global economy is no longer goods, services, or flows of capital, but the competition for people. ... As a result, the real foreign threat to the American economy is not terrorism; it's that we may make creative and talented people stop wanting to come here.

In part, what has made America "America" has been a capacity to embrace new ideas, different perspectives, and creative approaches - not reject them. More than a few social observers have noted that the U.S. has a pretty lousy public school system, compared internationally, but among the best graduate schools and research programs. Immigrants are usually central players here, and their inventions and businesses often contribute significantly to the economy (can you say Google?).

At the international level we're turning away ideas that have historically contributed to our quality of life. At the local level, states are driving away caring parents with decent jobs who are considered valued "citizens" in all ways but one - their same-sex union. What connects all of this is fear and intolerance, which can be challenged with an economic argument, the very argument some opponents of immigration use to keep foreigners out.

Can we turn that argument on its head and challenge bigotry through economics? That's nothing new, of course, and I'm not sure it'll work. Logic hasn't had much effect so far with this bunch, and I'm sometimes afraid prejudice runs deeper than economic well-being, which says volumes about its hold on people. But Tucson has lost a good family, the U.S., through its actions and policies, is exacerbating the brain drain, and if you follow this through to its logical end ... Well, maybe that's the plan.          

Tags: economy, immigration, Richard Florida, prejudice, education, gay, lesbian, GLBT, homophobia, Recommended (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 138 comments

  •  This is an interesting and important (4.00 / 3)

    topic. You might want to save your diary as a text file, delete it, then re-submit it later in the day when more people are around.
    •  Or we can pile on and get it up on the rec list. (4.00 / 4)

      Once there, it will fly on its own.

      What's so hard about Peace, Love, and Truth and Progress?

      by melvin on Tue Jan 03, 2006 at 02:55:37 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  This dovetails nicely.... (4.00 / 2)

      with a post I read the other day on a Canadian progressive blog.  One half of a couple who posted there is describing their move from San Francisco to Toronto.  They go on to describe several other couples they know (some of whom are same-sex) who are also planning to leave the United States for more welcoming climes. They stated that the United States had just become too intolerant for their liking in the wake of 9/11.

      Ian H

      •  I know a gay couple in Toronto (4.00 / 2)

        One is American, the other is Polish. They both moved to Canada in the early 90s through the pro-gay immigration laws. Even 5 years ago, gay couples were welcome to present themselves as such at passport control at the border or airport. Try that with U.S. Border Control.
      •  American emigres (none / 0)

        Ian - could you give me the URL of that blog?  I'm researching American emigres - people who have left the country (permanently) for any reason.  It's an untouched topic.

        Feel free to email me at mconnolly@cambridgeconsulting.com or to reply here.
        Thanks!

    •  I don't see why (4.00 / 2)

      I don't see why we should have to try and convince anybody of anything in regards to this issue. People have a right to be gay and to be treated equally to heterosexuals, without that being predicated on economic benefits or any other kind of reasoning.

      Frankly, the more I think of it, the only valid response should be contempt, disdain and ridicule. They're either small-minded and ignorant, or have very unsavoury religious beliefs - why should we bother what they think, or even try to reason with them? Most of them are too stupid to be reasoned with.

      If it becomes so shameful - so a source of public mocking - as to be so 'backwards' as to be homophobic - then it will stop fast. The more we treat it as though they have valid complaints and points, the more we strengthen their cause.

      Lampoon them, don't reason with them.

      "In America fundamentalist Christians believe the world was created 6,000 years ago - in England people drink in bars that are older than that." - Steve Aylett

      by Mephistopheles on Tue Jan 03, 2006 at 08:04:22 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  because (none / 1)

        they represent the (slim?) majority of the citizenry that's why
        •  Who cares? (none / 0)

          They don't represent a majority of smart people, I'd like to think.

          And smart people run television, write books, broadcast radio and print newspapers.

          I'm totally against legitimising their points of view by engaging them in reasoned debate. Why should we respond to people whose most intellectual argument is 'God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve' with an intelligent debate?

          Racism, to the extent it has been pushed back at all, has been done so because it's no longer socially acceptable to be a racist. Homophobia deserves the same treatment.

          Stigmatise homophobics, mock them, refuse to play their game. It's the only way we're really going to win.

          "In America fundamentalist Christians believe the world was created 6,000 years ago - in England people drink in bars that are older than that." - Steve Aylett

          by Mephistopheles on Tue Jan 03, 2006 at 12:34:38 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  while (none / 0)

            I don't necessarily disagree with your point, I don't think it is a wise tactic. Isn't it one of our sticking points on the "Left" that conservatives don't try to engage us with debate, but instead smear us, shout us down and tarnish us by making our beloved label Liberal a dirty word? Why would we want to do the same? Aren't we supposed to be better than that. Like it or not, we have to convince people, not insult them into seeing things our way. We are the grown up, we should behave like it.
      •  A different approach (none / 0)

        I worry about the consequences of a lampooning and attacking approach.

        How about asking people to justify their belief - which is nowhere in the Constitution (with the small exception of that slavery thing....) - that some people are more equal than others?  And if they truly believe in heterosexual privilege, challenging them to craft an amendment to the Constitution that clearly states that heterosexuals have and shall forever have special privileges and rights.

        Just sayin.'

    •  I strongly agree... (none / 0)

      with both!  This is important and interesting.  And I'm making plans for the same thing.

      Texas passed the odious Proposition 2 which not only banned gay marriage but anything approximating it.  Now, cities and companies are having teams of lawyers helping them decide if their insurance benefits or leave conditions violate the Texas State Constitution.  In other words, "Gay" = "Not Welcome in Texas".  The vote?  75 to 25%.

      Of course, we knew that when Governor Rick Perry said that Texas Iraq military veterans who happen to be gay should "look for other places to live" because Texas wasn't opening its arms.

      Well, I've had it. I'm not going to cut off my nose to spite my face, but I'm getting the hell outta Texas.  They can finance their redneck ways with someone else's taxes.

  •  Recommended... (4.00 / 4)

    ...and it's on the reco-list.  Excellent diary.
  •  Excellent Diary Mother Mags (4.00 / 2)

    Though not what I expected. Given the title, I could have sworn this would be about the one-dimensional "Fighting Dems" promotion. Har.

    No signature this cycle is as important as electing Larry Kissell to Congress.

    by RANT on Tue Jan 03, 2006 at 04:11:03 AM PDT

  •  My comment on gay adoption (semi-off topic) (none / 0)

    Before stating this (I'm expecting a flame war), let me state that I'm almost universally in favor of gay rights.

    Gay adoption, however, bothers me. It's not the rights of the parents, however, it's about the child. Let me explain...

    I went to public school in Los Angeles. Drugs, gangs, violence, you name it. It was basically a jailhouse mentality. The strong preyed on the weak, people were constantly trying to instigate fights among others, and there was always peer pressure. Trash talking was a constant. Insults were always there. A common one was "... yeah, and f--- you and your two dads!" (i.e. the insult being your mother was actually a guy).

    Now, if you're a gay/lesbian couple, and you adopt, and stick your kid in an LA public school, either:

    1. Your kid has to stay in the closet about your relationship

    2. Your kid is getting beaten up for sure.  

    There are a few caveats:

    Well, your kid could win the fight, but that will lead straight to juvenile hall, even if it was self defense. (hooray for zero-tolerance policies </snark>)

    #2 is probably more likely to happen to boys; but girls will also face various forms of social retribution. (Note: the most vicious fight I saw in school was actually between 2 girls).

    If you're a lesbian couple and you happen to both look like porn stars, you'd better believe that your adopted child's male friends want to watch (or, sneak pictures, or whatever). The good news is your kid won't get beaten up. The bad news is that I wouldn't exactly call this "respect" in the positive sense.

    ---

    I don't have the answers here. But as someone who was beaten by about 10 people at one time (including several kicks to the head) when I was 14, I am seriously concerned that the children of gay/lesbian couples will be abused by their peers. And unfortunately, you can't change the peers.

    If anyone has a rosier outlook on this, please contribute.

    •  Three steps (4.00 / 15)

      (1) Purchase time machine

      (2) Go back 50 years

      (3) Replace "gay" with "bi-racial" in your comment.

      I'm not sure what to do with the "porn star" part.  I assume that was snark.

      Sorry you had it rough in High School.

      •  Response (none / 0)

        The porn star part was designed to illustrate how one form of bigotry (objectification) can be used to supplant another form of bigotry (homophobia). I'm white an married to a black woman. I hear "I generally can't stand black people but I really like your wife" more often than I'd like to admit.

        For all practical matters, I did grow up in the West San Fernando Valley area, and at least one porn star lived in my neighborhood. obviously, this isn't a concern in the rest of the country.

        Fortunately, my high-school experience lasted 2 years (I got out fast), and I'm having a great time in grad school now.

        The bi-racial comment is right on. So, 50 years ago, how did bi-racial children deal with it? I'm sure they had to use their fists every now and again, but that was back when "boys could be boys", gang violence wasn't what it is today, and you could stand up for yourself when attacked without fear of zero-tolerance policies punishing you for refusing to take it.

        •  Pretzel logic... (4.00 / 12)

          by your argument, no one who is different in any way should be able to adopt because their kids might get beaten up. So should we all do what the bullies want us to do? It's the same logic some have used to keep gays out of the military--because they might get beaten up. By your logic Rosa Parks should have stayed in the back of the bus because her actions angered and provoked people. Look, nothing changes until things are shaken up. Once gays can adopt and there are enough gay parents, it becomes a cultural norm. Bill Gates probably got beaten up for being a nerd--did he go hide his head?
          •  I agree (4.00 / 5)

            I find his argument regressive.
          •  Even I got beaten up (4.00 / 9)

            for being a nerd. And my parents aren't gay. My son got beaten up for being a nerd. His parents aren't gay. Therefore: If you are a gay couple, make sure you don't adopt a nerd.

            Okay, that was a joke.

            The argument against gay parenting is naive. Gay parents--at least the ones I know--want their children so much that they go to great lengths to make it happen. How many kids in this world are that lucky? They educate themselves about good parenting practice and take a proactive stance toward their children's reception in this homophobic world, including measures to increase safety at school--among them living in communities that embrace rather than reject them. I concede that children of gay parents are a sitting target for abuse by some jerks, but many if not most kids are targets for one reason or another. It's not a valid reason to deprive homosexual partners of their parenting rights.

        •  Well (4.00 / 4)

          You know who else shouldn't be allowed to adopt?
          Bi-racial couples, as everyone's said.
          People of minority religions.
          People with funny accents.
          People who tolerate nerds.
          People whose social class does not match that of every other person in their town.
          People who allow their children to deviate from rigid sex roles.

          I'm sure there are many other undesirable family categories that, if eliminated, would reduce the incidence of bullying and violence.

          "As scientific knowledge advances, it does not mean that religious knowledge retreats." - horse69 on the bnet recon C&C board

          by lonespark on Tue Jan 03, 2006 at 07:40:21 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  same goes for (none / 0)

            biological kids too--people who are "different" just would not be allowed to reproduce, for fear of bullies. Social Darwinism at work here--only the bullies would reproduce so it would be a society of aggressors. (Wait, it is starting to get that way...)
    •  Change (4.00 / 3)

      And unfortunately, you can't change the peers.
      No you can't, if you make gays and lesbians invisible.

      The Right is always talking about the dangers of 'normalizing' homosexuality.  There's a reason they're afraid of that.  When something begins to be accepted as normal it becomes harder to whip up hate against it.  Those peers you speak of will change when they know so many GLBT people that the only reaction they have to Johnny having two mothers is boredom.

      I'm not sure how you can say you're for gay rights, but then tell us we shouldn't have children.  How is that seeing us as equal citizens or, even more fundamentally, as equal human beings?  

    •  you say you are (4.00 / 7)

      "almost" universally in favor of gay rights.

      Wow...thanks for being "almost" in favor of my equal rights.  I feel so...undeserving....

      explain how letting gays marry will directly affect your own heterosexual relationship?

      by bluestatesam on Tue Jan 03, 2006 at 07:05:45 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Cut to the chase (4.00 / 4)

      Are you saying adoption should be illegal for gay couples?  

      explain how letting gays marry will directly affect your own heterosexual relationship?

      by bluestatesam on Tue Jan 03, 2006 at 07:11:32 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Or... (4.00 / 2)

      ...you could be a kid in the LA public school system and get into a fight anyway.

      Kids will find ANY reason to weed out people in an instinctual attempt to kill off the weak and unfit. If it's not homosexuality, it's going to be something else. You can't shelter them from it and you can't take them away from it. The kid has to learn to stand out on his or her own. The kid's best bet is a couple of loving and supportive parents, who will raise that kid to be strong and independent.

    •  There are no guarantees (none / 0)

      for anything.  I'm sorry that you were beaten up but I don't think that the risk of being beaten up for who your parents are outweighs being in a loving stable home.   My daughter could be beaten at her school for being short or being Canadian, or being smart or any number of reasons that have nothing to do with what her father and I do.  

      If you look at families with two moms or two dads they really try very hard to look out for stuff like this and to give the child the best.  Generally because it's harder for them to have children they are excellent parents and work really hard to protect their kids - that's a massive generalization, I know but it's what I've seen in real life.  

      The state has no business in the bedrooms of the nation. - Pierre Trudeau

      by lonestar canuck on Tue Jan 03, 2006 at 08:22:55 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  FRIEND TOLD ME (4.00 / 2)

        Her son had been severly beaten by neighborhood public school kids because he went to private school, and his father was "rich."

        One postive note in this mess, the thugs videotaped their assault, which came in handy at the trial.

        But by your twisted logic, it was my friend at fault, for having married a man who earned a good living, who could then send her son to private school.

        What you're doing is called "blaming the victim," and it's not pretty, or logical.

        •  Uh no..... (none / 0)

          I'm not saying it's okay to beat anyone.  I'm saying that there shouldn't be a law against gays adopting because the kids might get beaten up.  

          I'm not blaming the victim or excusing violence.   I'm saying that not allowing gays to adopt because the child might get beaten up is a silly argument against gays adopting.  

          The state has no business in the bedrooms of the nation. - Pierre Trudeau

          by lonestar canuck on Tue Jan 03, 2006 at 01:02:47 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  I was beaten up, too (4.00 / 4)

      For a few years, I could expect it at least daily, like clockwork. It wasn't for being gay, or having gay parents. Ironically, though, "gay" was one of the worst insults they could use, and I heard it often.

      I got through those years, thanks in part to having pretty good parents. I wouldn't wish that kind of treatment on anyone, and I'll do everything I can to keep my own kids from having to live through the same hell. But I know it's survivable. And my life has been a good one; I'm confident that I've known a lot more joy than any of my attackers. (Living well is indeed the best revenge.)

      So while my heart goes out to kids who are tormented for having gay parents, I'm not sympathetic to the idea that gays should not have kids. If, Universe forbid, my wife and I were killed in an accident, we'd want our kids raised by two loving parents with values similar to ours. Gay, disabled, black, white, Jewish, Christian, atheist -- those are just details.

      I'm Nowhere Hussein Man, and I apologize for this comment.

      by Nowhere Man on Tue Jan 03, 2006 at 08:28:12 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  asdf (4.00 / 3)

      I was abbandoned at birth by my parents, I spent my whole childhood from 6 months to 18 years old in the care of my local authority here in the UK. I can tell you that I would have prefered any parent to no parent at all.
    •  you are patently wrong (4.00 / 7)

      Now, if you're a gay/lesbian couple, and you adopt, and stick your kid in an LA public school, either:

      Your kid has to stay in the closet about your relationship

      Your kid is getting beaten up for sure.  

      as a gay parent  (Daddy, Papa & Me) and GLBT family activist, I know dozens, if not hundreds of GLBT parents, many in LA and many with kids in the LA public school system from grades 2 to 10... and to the last one..

      not a single one is closeted about their relationship

      and not a single one has every been physically threatened, much less beaten.

      In fact, I know at least a half dozen families in GEORGIA where their kids our out and never hurt.

      you need to speak from what you know, not what you think you'd expect. Perhaps you should visit the blogs of gay parents or speak to some parents and children directly to form a more realistic opinion.
      (there are hundreds of thousands of parents and hundreds of blogs)

      Daddy, Papa & Me: Two dads, a daughter & the politics of it all.

      by wclathe on Tue Jan 03, 2006 at 09:31:15 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Perfect response. (none / 1)

        All these "theoretical" arguments are from people opposed to full equality. Most of the justifications for denying anyone equal rights is based on strawman arguments like this. Remember the debate about the ERA: it could require unisex bathrooms.

        Well fuck it all, I'm still not leaving. I'm too goddamn mean and stubborn to be run off by a swarm of annoying insects.

        by homogenius on Tue Jan 03, 2006 at 10:59:38 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  How silly.... (4.00 / 3)

      ...you don't change the relationship to suit the horrid conditions of the schools, you either change the school (protect the students in it), or go to a place where such violence would be unthinkable (New Zealand, France, Canada).

      Please don't tell me you feel sorry for Ben. Ben is a well cared for dalmatian and has not been harmed by my political views.

      by Bensdad on Tue Jan 03, 2006 at 10:30:49 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  At least where I live.... (4.00 / 2)

      ....Vancouver, that is, "gay" isn't the insult that it used to be. You hear it a lot, of course, but it doesn't have the edge that, say, "faggot" used to have.

      I realized that when on the bus recently, listening to some early-teen boys in the back teasing each other. They were calling each other cocksuckers and gay, and saying things like, "you just want to suck his dick." The comments obviously weren't intended as complimentary, but what struck me was, well, that no one seemed in any danger of being struck. The tone was light and bantering, rather than nasty. Instead of being infuriated, the insulted one would lob one of the same back, and everyone would laugh. Something seemed familiar, and I then realized that they were teasing each other about gay sex in almost precisely the same tone older generations had teased each other about straight sex -- as a potential embarassment, not a mortal insult.

    •  Well, (none / 1)

      I don't know about the LA schools, all I know about is my small college town and Minneapolis, but from the teenagers I know in both those places, high school kids now seem to be significantly less homophobic than when I was in the Minneapolis public schools in the 70s and early 80s.  I knew some gay kids in my high school, and a couple of gay parents, actually.  It wasn't a huge deal and the kids didn't get beat up for it, though they took serious flak at various times.  

      But they were hardly alone in that - the computer lab guys, new wave punks and skater kids got flak, any weak looking skinny guy got flak, pretty much all the girls who weren't beautiful and sexily dressed got flak, the Indian kids, the immigrant kids, the black kids, Jewish kids, kids with cerebral palsy...  If a school is badly managed and bullies can run wild, very few kids will be safe.  

      Yes it can be painful being different, almost nobody really likes not fitting in, there is always a price to pay.  Having a queer family or family member is only one on a long list of things that can make you stick out, and it won't make you stick out to total strangers.  And being different is not an evil, in fact, it's usually a plus once you get out of high school.

      I know two sets of gay parents and they are the most conscientious loving careful parents imaginable.  If abusive neglectful selfish stupid addicted straight people can raise kids, I can't think of one reason why loving generous smart and  sane gay people shouldn't.  I think what you get at home ultimately matters a lot more to who you become than what you get at school.

      And if you're a parent with kids in public school, you have to scope out that school ahead of time, be as involved as you can be, know the teachers, etc and if it's a hellhole, find your alternatives.  Gay, straight, whatever.  

      "Civility costs nothing and buys everything." - Mary Wortley Montagu

      by sarac on Tue Jan 03, 2006 at 10:54:44 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Get yourself to a theater NOW (none / 0)

      Go see "Family Stone". Entertaining movie, with a scene that applies specifically to your argument.
    •  Missing the point (4.00 / 2)

      Gay adoption, however, bothers me. It's not the rights of the parents, however, it's about the child. Let me explain...

      If your argument is in defense of the child...You have missed the point entirely.

      The Arizona law that does not allow unmarried couples to second-parent adoption hurts the child on several fronts.
      Health and Life Insurance, inheritance, custody are only just a few...

      Certainly the biological parent can provide for these but the law as written also serves to let the second-parent off the hook for any legal responsibility that they may have and should have towards their non-biological children and this is irregardless of if their best intentions are for meeting all of the child's needs.

      And then in the event of death of the biological parent the child who may have only known of his/her loving parents now becomes the unnecessary victim of the court.  And worse should now the second-parent petition for adoption be contested by the biological relatives of the child all of whom may not have the best interests of the child in mind and are free now to bias the court with any hate retoric that they may have about the child being raised by a GLBT

      There in lies the problem I have as clearly the law is not about the best needs of the children in these cases.

      As an Arizonian I am ashamed...as a lesbian I am appalled

    •  So, the choice is... (none / 0)

      those children should be institutionalized or placed within foster care for 10 - 18 years???

      Gay couples often adopt children that are not the focus of 'traditional' adoption efforts.  And, in any case, every state has many children in foster care that are waiting, waiting, waiting...  

      Oh heck... better for them not to have ANY parents than to be made fun of in school.

    •  It doesn't really work like that (none / 0)

      In my experience, bullies bully the person, not the issue.

      If it isn't having two dads, it's something else. Being fat, wearing glasses, you name it.

      I can't help but think that if we stop gay adoption because of people's reaction to it, we're sort of giving in.

      "In America fundamentalist Christians believe the world was created 6,000 years ago - in England people drink in bars that are older than that." - Steve Aylett

      by Mephistopheles on Tue Jan 03, 2006 at 12:39:12 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  depends a lot on the adult example (none / 0)

      The gay-straight alliance was a VERY popular club where my kids went to school.

      It was more dangerous to be nerdy, for sure.

      Also lousy example for kids that the threat of intolerance should control your behavior.

      fact does not require fiction for balance

      by mollyd on Tue Jan 03, 2006 at 01:10:20 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  no options save combat (none / 0)

      Getting beaten up is an unfortunate part of growing up different, whether it's due to your parents being gay, biracial, being a nerd, or (in my family's case) being outspoken atheists.  

      I got beat up.  My brother got a trip to the emergency room, courtesy of the fists of loving, tolerant Christians.

      How did we handle it?  Well, my mother promised to back us with up to and including legal action, and my brother and I got ourselves trained in ass-whuppin' from my mom's MP (Marine) boyfriend.  A few kicked asses later, and lo and behold, we had no further trouble.

      Some parents screamed threats of legal action, and the district threatened us with expulsion, but we had a nice, lengthy paper trail and a parent that said the magic words "you can talk to my lawyer."

      Bottom line:  you can raise your kids to be victims, or to be survivors.  You'd better train them to be survivors.  I'm proud of my beliefs, heritage and of my parents and would do it all over again.  

      They're calling our bluff and all we're holding is a Pelosi and a Hoyer.

      by arbiter on Tue Jan 03, 2006 at 02:16:50 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Great diary (4.00 / 9)

    Maybe it's just my perspective, but "creative and different" have seldom been words of praise or prized traits outside of academia and advertising. Positive comments usually come as backhanded compliments: when a creative person's ideas are used, it's generally with a "who'da thunk he could come up X,Y, or Z" -- followed by the proverbial 'absent-minded professor' or 'oddball' labels. It starts as we socialize through school --those who don't fit the mainstream become ostracized socially. Obviously, this is a comment full of generalities, which are inherently dangerous on any topic, but it does seem to me we humans are threatened by anything we sense to be different from ourselves.

     Certainly it seems to apply for a great number of self-professed heterosexual people when it comes to gays and lesbians; only fear and prejudice could push people to vote against marriage between other people that has absolutely no bearing or      impact on their own marital relationships.

    When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic. -Benjamin Franklin

    by MissAnneThrope on Tue Jan 03, 2006 at 04:13:31 AM PDT

    •  Diversity (4.00 / 6)

      Is a healthy community value.

      No signature this cycle is as important as electing Larry Kissell to Congress.

      by RANT on Tue Jan 03, 2006 at 04:15:48 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  respectfully (none / 0)

      If you accept the premise, as I do, that sexuality in any person is not so cut and dried as to be entirely hetero or homosexual, then it becomes clear that there will be social effects of gay couples' interaction with heteros.

      I don't mean to excuse injustice in any way, shape or form with this, only to suggest that there have been millenia of socializing efforts to get people in sexual line, and that removal of these "guidelines" will be unsettling to many to varying degrees.

      Would a rhetoric mindful of this be more effective? I don't know. On one hand, it seems more truthful to me. On the other hand, I can see political need for a some license.

      •  then perhaps (none / 1)

        heterosexuals will have to come to terms with their desires.  and perhaps it will force society to reconsider the institution of marriage.
      •  Have there really been millenia of socializing (none / 0)

        efforts to get people in sexual line?  This is a honest question.  I can think of counter-examples:  English public schools and Oxford and Cambridge certainly tolerated a lot of bi-sexuality, at least over the last century or two.  There's evidence of all sorts of very close relations among women over the years.  Which is not to say such relations were allowed to be perfectly open.  So I just don't know.

        "False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the soul with evil." Plato

        by JPete on Tue Jan 03, 2006 at 05:45:27 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  all disavowals (none / 0)

          retain the specters they repudiate.  and yes, that domain of repudiated specters always threatens to irrupt into the fragile matrix of subjectivity that paradoxically formed by these repressions.  this may explain the various phenomena you site.  it may also explain why sexuality is always a performance that is compulsively repeated.
          •  i should (none / 0)

            at that such repetitions are predicated on a phantasmatic structure of identification.
          •  Another take would be that what we're really (none / 1)

            keen to regulate is the chastity of mothers, so guys can know whose child is whose. (That's a really common thought that goes back for centuries.)   In that picture, same-sex relations are not at all threatening and don't need the horrible attention that was visited upon the adulterous person.  Of course, everyone has a pretty negative attitude toward sex when they have to pontificate on it, and Christians thought sexual regulation distingished them from the pagans, but generally same-sex was left alone.

            If that's so, then we'd want a more modern explanation for what forced same-sex relations into the (bitter) lime light these days.

            "False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the soul with evil." Plato

            by JPete on Tue Jan 03, 2006 at 05:57:24 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  As an example, it seems fairly transparent, (none / 0)

          and I am no learned expert here, that from the original gymnasiums to the NFL there is an effect to channel male homosexual desire.
          •  some say (none / 0)

            men create those strange rituals of homosexual desire in order to contain their repressed impulses in a socially sanctioned manner.
            •  I'm seriously not sure how to respond. (4.00 / 2)

              I'm working increasingly in areas of cognitive science and one thing that characterizes this area is a now nearly complete divorce from anything like Freudian thought.  I'm not saying this as something you should respond to, but rather as an explanation for my not responding either critically or affirmatively to your comments.  I also don't have that much knowledge of queer theory (though I have a little, as, I think, any feminist must), but I can't respond to a lot of it when it deals with areas where I don't know much already.

              I can say one thing that's relevant:  one worry I have always had about Freudian theory and its derivatives is its idea that the external observer is much better at naming one's desires than one is oneself.  I have a lot of difficulty with the idea that desires are sort of hanging around ready to be named in any case.  So I'd tend to look first for an explanation of sports in terms of something that has evolved over centuries and look at why it did.  

              This is probably more than you wanted to know!

              "False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the soul with evil." Plato

              by JPete on Tue Jan 03, 2006 at 07:42:17 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  you are right, (none / 0)

                queer theory is steeped in psychoanalysis, but we do not employ it in order to engage in pathological criticism.  instead, we utilize it in order to understand the psychic and corporeal determinations of sexuality.
                •  I understand that the pathology is in the (none / 1)

                  practioners elsewhere, but I wonder whether you'd accept the kind of thing I said just above, or below, about sports being about physical skills related to survival.  That's a different sort of reading, reallly from evolutionary psychology.  It's one that positions people in the evolutionary relations with other species.

                  Now in fact I'm surprised that I seem to be defending evolutionary psychology, since I think a lot of it is terrible.  But that's a kind of explanation that seems promising and at odds with (possibly) queer theory.

                  Please do know, I don't really have a dog in this race, so I am asking genuine questions.  

                  AND I absolutely must get back to my paper that I'm writing, so I may not check back for a couple of hours.

                  "False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the soul with evil." Plato

                  by JPete on Tue Jan 03, 2006 at 08:10:10 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  Beautiful Quote (none / 1)

                "I have a lot of difficulty with the idea that desires are sort of hanging around ready to be named...."

                All I can think of is the new pledges lined up in Animal House: "Your Delta Tau Chi name is...." LOL

                Well fuck it all, I'm still not leaving. I'm too goddamn mean and stubborn to be run off by a swarm of annoying insects.

                by homogenius on Tue Jan 03, 2006 at 11:05:14 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  I'm not sure. It's hard to recover (4.00 / 2)

            why things are done.  One way to think about it would be to think about sports as a continuation of infact rough play.  That sort of rough play occurs in lots of species and the general thought about it that researchers hold is that it greatly aids the development of physical skills that are important for survival.  Relatedly, Greek athletics, whose society openly allowed same-sex relations for men, were encouraged because a highly skilled physical body was seen as a kind of achievement and its practioners would be better able to do things like battle effectively.

            There's got to be a lot in our sports that have to do with the acquisition of physical skills and physical well being.  Indeed, I'm really pleased that my (gay) son in NYC plays tennis, because it is good for him physically.  I also kind of hope he'll meet some guys he likes, but that's another point....and actually he seems to be settling down with a partner (imagine this as said by a proud mother).

            It's hard to miss out on what we can easily see as grabbing onto one another in, e.g., football, and its tempting to reading homoeroticism into it.  But that doesn't really tell us what is a cause of the activity and whether the eroticism is just a matter of how our desires lead us to see the activity.

            I was saying to formalist that I'm trying to avoid psychoanalytic analyses which position the aanalyst as knowing what the real motivating desires are.  So there may be a deeper issue here.  Which is fine  

            "False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the soul with evil." Plato

            by JPete on Tue Jan 03, 2006 at 08:04:37 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  Excellent points (none / 0)

      The diarist's original comments from the Creative Class books and your comments synch up from both perspectives.

      The competition for people who contribute to the broader well-being of the country cannot be accomplished by homogeneity in any sense of the word. Even Singapore, traditionally very narrow in its definitions of what's socially acceptable, has made outward moves to understand, attract, and foster a creative class that includes gays and lesbians (although in an understated manner, and not without some backlash).

      I believe the answer to why the US doesn't embrace the same approaches is so obvious, it's frightening: in order to maintain power and wealth in as few hands as possible. There's no motivation to encourage an "ownership" society nor any other action that causes widespread prosperity unless it results in exponential wealth increases among the top eschelon.

      Just my 2 cents.

      Chaos. It's not just a theory.

      by PBnJ on Tue Jan 03, 2006 at 07:09:40 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  The greatest country on the face (4.00 / 6)

    of the earth is acting very regressive these days.  The Religious Right has such a stranglehold on the GOP and our various government entities, and they fear change.  They want to go back in time so to speak.

    We as progressives must keep pushing forward......keep pushing that envelope, and change will come.....albeit slowly, but it will come.  There are plenty of communities across the country that are embracing change, they are the leaders of our movement, and as such they will greatly benefit.

    If we continue to push and do not give up, we will change stagnant thoughts, practices and the like, and we will all be the better for it.

    Keep pushing that envelope.

    If the people lead, the leaders will follow.

    by Mz Kleen on Tue Jan 03, 2006 at 04:13:48 AM PDT

    •  funny how (4.00 / 11)

      we have this in common with Iraq. They too are losing their intellectual class, to religious intolerance and fear, albeit a much more violent brand of intolerance:

      "This is the real parliament of Iraq," a Shabandar dweller exhorted after the invasion. "This is where the real discussions take place." If the Shabandar was Iraq's parliament, then al-Sayegh was its prime minister. If you were a writer in Baghdad, it did not matter where you came from, you ended up at the Shabandar, because the cafe and the book district received everyone. Amir would find you there. If you were a thief, then your stoop was in Bab Al Sharji. For literary types, it was Al Mutanabbi Street. There happens to be a great symmetry in Arabic that binds the words for "writer" and "book" in a single sound. Book is "kitab," writer, "katib," and the difference is little more than a shift in stress when the words are spoken.

      Today, the street where books and writers coexist has become a street of ghosts. After I returned to Iraq in late May this year, I learned that Amir Sayegh had fled to Canada.

      Iraqis still shop in the book district, but most of the intellectuals who felt free to say what they thought in public are either in hiding or have fallen silent out of fear that spies for various armed groups will target them for assassination. Iraqi writers are starting to head underground, retreating to protected offices. Because literary culture is so bound to a particular neighborhood of Baghdad, an attack on Al Mutanabbi Street is an attack on Iraqi culture itself. This is a culture once so vibrant that a famous slogan in the Arab world ran, "Cairo writes, Beirut publishes, Baghdad reads."

      i think they're attacking me cause i'm awesome. how's that??

      by missreporter on Tue Jan 03, 2006 at 04:26:26 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Give it time. (4.00 / 3)

        Yeah, the Iraqi fundies are more violent now, but just give our fundies a little time and continued support from their followers, and they'll catch up.

        Yeesh, no wonder people want to avoid us...or move out of here.

        Read or *listen to* my SF novel for free. (-7.13/-7.33)

        by Shadan7 on Tue Jan 03, 2006 at 05:38:34 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  i agree (none / 0)

          that's why i'm staying here in New Jersey. Have a lot of friends that have moved to Dallas and its suburbs because it's so much cheaper to buy a house...I actually thought about it...but between prairie fires and wingnut whackos with carrying permits...no thanks. No offense Texans, the one time I went I kinda liked it and the people were okay (this was in Dallas). I'll stay up here with the effete liberals. Our wingnut whackos pretty much keep to themselves.

          i think they're attacking me cause i'm awesome. how's that??

          by missreporter on Tue Jan 03, 2006 at 10:31:33 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Arizona's loss (4.00 / 2)

    is surely California's gain.  What we will find on a macro level is what we can already observe on a micro level; that is, the gradual conglomeration of educated and cultured people in communities that offer acceptance to, as the diarist so aptly puts it, "otherness."  We see that in certain communities here in SE Michigan, where GLBTs share their lives with more progressive neighbors in NW Detroit and near the Wayne State University campus, suburban Royal Oak and Ferndale, and, of course, Ann Arbor.

    Unfortunately, while these more insular areas will continue to prosper it this patterning leads to more Balkanization.  Put this on a more national scale, and we are surely in for more problems as time goes on.

    Only with acceptance will we rid ourselves of winners and losers.

  •  It is a fiscally (4.00 / 4)

    irresponsible policy.  Soon to receive a PhD, I desire to move to a country where I can marry if I so desire.  I also desire to reside in a country where I do not have to endure vapid debates about gay rights and values.  One notices the large number of gay men and lesbians in European cities such as Amsterdam and Paris, and understands these cities attract educated gay men because of these cities' liberal policies and varied economic opportunities.  My European friends who reside in these cities also inform me of the lack of discrimination in the various fields in which they work.  
    But not all gay men and lesbians are bright or economically productive.  As with all diasporas, the wealthy and educated will depart and the poor will remain to be oppressed.  
    I guess gay tourism is also a large source of income for cities throughout the world.  If the United States becomes increasingly hostile to gay men and lesbians, those funds will not be funnelled into the US economy.  
    I imagine this will also have ramifications for the university system of the United States.  For gay and lesbian academics will simply not study in a country hostile to the existence of those of us who experience sexual pleasure in manners outside of the hegemonic protocols of the heteornormative matrix.
    •  Do try England. (none / 0)

      "False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the soul with evil." Plato

      by JPete on Tue Jan 03, 2006 at 05:58:28 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  no, (none / 0)

        i would rather speak french everyday.  and the PACS arrangement in France is more compelling, as it does not require one to engage in that rite de passage we call marriage.
        •  Montreal (none / 0)

          Culture, French, Marriage Equity .... bagels...

          The state has no business in the bedrooms of the nation. - Pierre Trudeau

          by lonestar canuck on Tue Jan 03, 2006 at 08:26:31 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I just love Montreal! (none / 0)

            I gave up on the US before the last fraudulent election and moved here (from Vermont which is a wonderful place in its own right).

            I'm not gay, but I'm anti-war and anti-fascist enough to want to check out of the US economy. So in mid-life I'm back at school working on a PhD in computer science. I'm not making enough to pay any US taxes, I'm not contributing to the US economy, and I'm not going back!

            I don't know if I qualify for membership in the creative class, but I hope that Canada will accept me nonetheless.

      •  i should (none / 1)

        state that i do find the desire for marriage to be regressive, and i do not believe a radical queer politics would settle for the expansion of that regulatory institution.  instead, the pulverization of that institution in the name of unrestrained desire would be more productive.  this problem is the topic of vigorous debate in the academy, and it has been since at least 1996.  but if such a debate is to be quelled in the name of values, i will be forced to leave this country.  and i believe the democratic party should at least push for some form of gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender awareness.  to skirt the issue is symptomatic of a certain cowardice and willingness to pander to the debased impulses of conservative americans that i find utterly deplorable.
  •  Yes indeed (none / 1)

    it's that we may make creative and talented people stop wanting to come here.

    And it's an education system that breeds resentment against those who succeed educationally instead of effectively working so all can succeed.  It is that resentment that demagogic politicians exploit.

    "College-educated" is both a precondition for employment and a slur in our culture.  It's a race to think, act, and be stupider than one is.

  •  Not just gays, lesbians... (4.00 / 5)

    Scientists are re-thinking coming to the US, or staying in the US.  Scientists do not want their kids learning junk in the science classrooms.  

    I am looking at property in Nova Scotia regularly (gosh, I love that condo in the converted church in Halifax, strangely enough...).  I'm straight, but I won't stay where my gay friends and colleagues can't live. And in a biotech business like the one I started can do just as well in Canada or the EU.  My gay business partner is thinking about the EU again now.  I completely understand and support that.

    The only thing keeping me here is that I live in an island of sanity (Massachusetts) in a very progressive town.  

    It is sad.  I'm sure the religious thugs have no thought to the real consequences of their actions.

    This isn't just talk for me.  I'm trying very hard to figure out how to buy at least a condo in Halifax to have a base....

    •  Emigrate (4.00 / 3)

      As a scientist, I find myself increasingly wanting to abandon this sinking-ship, doomed former-democracy. But I feel you can't get away. How long will it be before we annex Canada?

      My perfect candiate for 08 would be to take W, pass him through mirror world and come up with a guy who is 100% opposite from him in every way, on every issue. I guess Howard Dean would be a pretty good real-world approximation. But, please, no more Kerry or Hilary. I like Hilary a lot, but her stand on Iraq has zero credibility.

      •  Even as someone who has to go buy groceries (none / 0)

        I get despondent.
      •  I am fighting hard to change things (none / 0)

        in my state, but I, too, wonder how long I can maintain the battle.

        If the current political climate isn't reversed soon, this country will have a drain of progressives of all sorts, black and white, gay and straight, who have the means to get out.

        Personally, I hate to even contemplate it, because I love my country and don't want to leave.

        "Soon the time will come to choose between what is easy, and what is right." - A. Dumbledore

        by epluribus on Tue Jan 03, 2006 at 08:27:53 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Stem cell research. (4.00 / 3)

      I sort of buried the reference to scientists in the diary (they are, of course, among the most creative sectors) with my reference to researchers taking their work elsewhere, but it's a disturbing and growing trend. Stem cell research is probably the most obvious example, but there's been an outright assault from this administration on most scientific inquiry (popular book on the topic: The Republican War on Science, by Chris Mooney).

      "One cannot be pessimistic about the West. This is the native land of hope." Wallace Stegner

      by Mother Mags on Tue Jan 03, 2006 at 07:50:26 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  jobs (none / 1)

        Of course, Stem cell research is not just about cures. It is not just about knowledge. Stem Cells are a TECHNOLOGY that can lead to JOBS. The govt REALLY misses the boat by doing NOTHING to keep America on top. We spend big bucks keeping on top militarily (for all the good it does...) but seem to do way less than nothing to maintain the USA's tech lead, which will be the real source of prosperity going forward.
  •  This is a great topic. (none / 0)

    Recommended.

    "False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the soul with evil." Plato

    by JPete on Tue Jan 03, 2006 at 05:48:28 AM PDT

  •  Goin' to California (none / 0)

    Made up my mind to make a new start,
    Going To California with an aching in my heart.

    ... Standing on a hill in my mountain of dreams,
    Telling myself it's not as hard, hard, hard as it seems.

    -- Led Zeppelin
     

    Pray we don't get fooled again.

    by Rock n Roll Blogger on Tue Jan 03, 2006 at 06:04:18 AM PDT

  •  Thank you! (4.00 / 5)

    Thanks to the author and to those who commented!

    Personally, I am appalled at what has become of my hometown in rural Missouri. I did some research on the book "The Flight of the Creative Class" and found this comment by an Amazon reviewer:

    "Florida discusses the three Ts that draw people to a city: Technology, Talent, and Tolerance, and describes how people will go to places that harbor those three conditions. Further, they go to what are essentially `good places to live', rather than `where the work is'. Countries like Canada and New Zealand, to name just two of the many possibilities outside the United States, are fast becoming ideal places for creative people to flourish. "


    A-HA! I agree that the three T's are vitally important. The lack of all three is a major reason our little town is dying. I intend to put copies of this book in the hands of our Chamber of Commerce director, and every city council member!
  •  Blue Ghettos...? (4.00 / 2)

    Another concern of mine is that we are creating a few blue ghettos where the "creative class" will move to.  

    That's sensible on some levels.  And it makes for great communities!  But on other levels, that's a little bit scary to me....

    Anyone else concerned about that?  Do you think that's a valid worry?

    •  My concern (none / 0)

      is that my community won't become one of them.
    •  of course it is (none / 0)

      for balkanization just increases the rivalries and the various forms of ignorance and hatred that usually culminate in some kind of culture war.  and i believe our country is already divided between those few states that embrace innovation and those other states that prefer stagnation.
      •  Stumbling Toward Snobbery (none / 0)

        This discussion assumes all sorts of absolute distinctions that make me uncomfortable, but the last comment seems crazy to me.

        How is innovation being defined, here?  Past marriage (pulverized, etc) and a PhD on every corner?  Most of the PhDs I know are just as rigid in their thinking as the general population, and often, they are far less adept at simply listening.  

        And as far as marriage goes, I think marriage can be as radical or as traditional as anything, depending on how it is practiced.  (I suppose, though, that marriage is inherently stable, and the queer seems associated with destabalizing boundaries; so marriage cannot be considered queer.)  I find nothing inherently regressive about gay men or lesbians wanting to be included in our cultural recognition of commitment.

        Anyway, I live in one of those prefer-stagnation states, and in a prefer-stagnation area within that state.  And my neighbors are real friendly to me and my boyfriend (we are both clearly out).  I have a PhD, and have even published a little queer theory and a few poems here and there, and I am more at home in this rural surround than I ever have been in the urban blue state where I was born.  

        The country doesn't look so "balkanized" from the ground.  

        P.S. Does a PhD really make you more economically productive?  Based on a lot of the MFAs and Humanities PhDs I know, I have faith hat we enrich the culture, but I fear we drain the economy.

        http://www.amazon.com/Underwater-Lengths-Single-Benjamin-Grossberg/dp/0912592583/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8& amp;s=books&qid=1197559375&sr=8-1

        by claytonben on Tue Jan 03, 2006 at 09:41:55 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  We create the ghettos ourselves... (none / 0)

      ...so there must be a need for them, and there is.  We need places where people can go and live and find out who they really are.  After I came out, I spent a semester on leave in Seattle, up on the hill.  I needed the time to step back and reflect on where I had been before I could figure out where I was going.  I also needed time to develop my own voice, to learn our history, which up until the time I came out was "their" history.  I needed a crtitcal mass of intellectual conversation.  

      Ghettoization is part of the process of coming out.  Eventually, one progresses beyond it.  But in today's America, we need the ghettoes, if only for their safety.

      Robyn

      •  Obviously, crtitcal --> critical n/t (none / 0)

      •  I actually (none / 0)

        disagree with this point.  The production of gay ghettos reifies gayness and lesbianness as an "identity," which in my opinion makes gayness and lesbianness all the more ready to be absorbed into the heteronormative matrix these mobilizations should contest.  In other words, a radical queer politics would destroy the concept of identity in the name of fluidity.
        •  I have only one identity... (none / 1)

          ...I am me.  But there are times when people need to go searching for an identity in order to find out that they don't need to search, that the answers are inside, not out there somewhere.

          Ghettoes are not only for the gays and lesbians, but also for the fluid people of which you speak.  I'm a post-operative transsexual person.  If forced to do so, I will choose female, and since my partner is female, I will identify as lesbian.  Before my operations, I was married to a woman and was called straight.  Had I, at the time, been attracted to men, I would probably have been called gay.  Would I have been called straight then after having surgery?  Not by most people.

          From my perspective, sexual orientation is to confusing to be of any use and useful to me only in political and socialogical contexts.

          Robyn

    •  Not ghettos (none / 0)

      Not by a long shot. I find the comparison repulsive. More like oases.
      •  Ghetto is just a word (none / 0)

        By itself, it is harmless.

        What part of it do you find repulsive?

        Robyn

      •  Let's call them (none / 0)

        Art Colonies.

        A society of sheep must beget in time a government of wolves. Bertrand de Jouvenel

        by Little Red Hen on Tue Jan 03, 2006 at 10:02:32 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Ghetto has more than one connotation... (none / 1)

        It could be a very poor, crime ridden area--which may be the image you have?

        Or it could be like the Jewish neighborhoods in Europe....

        Or it could be just a group of culturally similar people choosing to live together.  Note the "social, legal, or economic pressure" in the definition below.

        I wanted people to think about all of those possible connotations.  

        Merriam-Webster says:
        Main Entry: 1 ghet·to
        Pronunciation: 'ge-(")tO
        Function: noun
        Inflected Form(s): plural ghettos also ghettoes
        Etymology: Italian, from Venetian dialect ghèto island where Jews were forced to live, literally, foundry (located on the island), from ghetàr to cast, from Latin jactare to throw -- more at JET
        1 : a quarter of a city in which Jews were formerly required to live
        2 : a quarter of a city in which members of a minority group live especially because of social, legal, or economic pressure
        3 a : an isolated group (a geriatric ghetto) b : a situation that resembles a ghetto especially in conferring inferior status or limiting opportunity (stuck in daytime TV's ghetto)
  •  Yesterday, (none / 1)

    by the way, was International Transgender Awareness Day.
  •  Another sad example. (4.00 / 7)

    There was a heartbreaking article in the WaPo recently about a lesbian couple who moved to MD because of VA's recently passed Affirmation of Marriage Act. Barbara and Tibby are in their mid-60's, had lived in Fredericksburg, VA for 17 years and were active, contributing members of their community.

    They left VA because Barbara has an aneurysm in her brain and they feared the Affirmation of Marriage Act meant that Tibby wouldn't be allowed to make medical decisions for her. Overreacting, perhaps? Medical PoAs are pretty standard fare. But maybe not under far reaching laws such as this one:

    "I would eschew the word 'safe' for the moment," says Edward D. Barnes, founder of Virginia's largest family law practice and former head of the Virginia Bar Association's family law section. Contracts such as wills and medical directives aren't really marital documents, he says, and, therefore, the law doesn't appear to be aimed at them. But because the law hasn't been tested in court, he is advising his gay clients to craft paperwork that plays down any romantic connection to their partners -- the opposite of what he told them before the new law passed. For now, he says, gays and lesbians need to seek out expert legal help and pray that their documents can withstand any potential legal challenge. "Since there's been no interpretation of this law, no one could give an ironclad" guarantee that wills and medical directives won't be affected, he says.

    Unbelievable. I simply cannot comprehend why so many people are intent on ruining the lives of fellow citizens who mean them no harm.

  •  I enjoy (4.00 / 2)

    how the diary establishes a relationship between hostility to creativity and difference and homophobia.  For I am always censured and treated poorly, and I believe this is a product of my sexuality.  In fact, I have been mistreated at this blog.  I guess homophobia, creativity and difference are inextricable.
  •  Careful (4.00 / 6)

    Claims like "gays and lesbians, on average, are more educated, earn more, and spend more" are fine if you are selling advertising for the Advocate, but should be viewed more critically in other contexts. These sorts of things are not so easy to determine when dealing with a population that is half in the shadows. A more accurate claim might be that "gays and lesbians living out of the closet are more educated, earn more, and spend more." This is probably because its easier for middle-class gays and lesbians to be out. (Also of course the disposable income statistics are at least in part a reflection of out queer folks disproportionately NOT having children.)

    The critical point here is that extending basic civil rights to same-sex couples should not be based in any way on these sorts of arguments about education, income and spending levels. They are rights that should be available to all regardless of class or status.

    Sick of candidate diaries? Kasama!
    "Tell no lies. Claim no easy victories" -- Amilcar Cabral

    by Christopher Day on Tue Jan 03, 2006 at 07:09:58 AM PDT

    •  However, I think that is a well documented fact. (none / 0)

      "Claims like "gays and lesbians, on average, are more educated, earn more, and spend more" are fine if you are selling advertising for the Advocate, but should be viewed more critically in other contexts." As someone who spent the last several years selling newspaper advertising, I can tell you that this statement has been well researched and documented. Just an FYI.
      •  Yes, (none / 0)

        they are an easily targeted group, but I do not know if this is to be celebrated.
      •  can you give references (4.00 / 4)

        because everything i've seen has been marketing studies of glossy gay magazines... whose readers are generally affluent...

        and not the GLBT community at large.

        and we always seem to miss Lesbians in these discussions, because everything i've seen suggest they make less than the general populace.

        and we need to decide if we are talking 'income' or 'disposable income' . one can make less money but have more to spend (no children).

        Daddy, Papa & Me: Two dads, a daughter & the politics of it all.

        by wclathe on Tue Jan 03, 2006 at 09:43:32 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Excellent! (none / 1)

          My version of this is: There is an identifiable part or stratum of GLBT communities that is more affluent, educated, etc. and is worth marketing to, just as there are similar segments in other communities.

          Market research is generally not comparable to scientific/academic research, although I have known some analysts in the business sector who were as disciplined in their methodology as their counterparts in academia. Marketing research is not published in peer-reviewed journals or subject to independent replication.

          The fundies love to trot out the canard that "all gays are affluent and don't need 'special' rights." That's why we need to be very careful about repeating these claims out of context.

          Well fuck it all, I'm still not leaving. I'm too goddamn mean and stubborn to be run off by a swarm of annoying insects.

          by homogenius on Tue Jan 03, 2006 at 11:16:44 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  We did a study... (4.00 / 2)

          of the Gay and Lesbian community in Topeka Kansas in the early 1990s for the -- get this -- Mayor's Task Force on Gay & Lesbian Concerns, which I co-chaired. Did I say it was in Topeka, Kansas?

          Anyway, our well-done study with a sample of over 2000 people came up with the fact that the gay & lesbian community was more highly educated, but lower paid than age/education cohorts in general.

          I have never bought the line that the whole gay & lesbian community is well-off financially. I suspect that nationwide conditions are much as we found in Topeka. And that the reason for lower pay - per worker - is bigotry, hidden or open. Sort of "Promote the family man" type of country club thinking...

          Yes, there are groups within the community (should we use the awful term "A-gays"?) who spend, party, travel and vacation la