Forgive this long post... I this diary will act as a catharsis. I'm not sure how I'm feeling at the moment.
BTW, this is crossposted at my blog.
I was talking to a good friend of mine on the phone ealier.
While discussing the role of corporations in our society, I was expressing my view that the root of many problems in this country is the unchecked power that corporations have.
I heard all of the usual talking points you would expect from those who have been so completely indoctrinated. Without Corporate money, there wouldn't be AIDS research... poor people in America are far better off than poor people in any other part of the world... if you tax the rich, there will be no incentive for people to get rich... the usual "let them eat cake" BS.
This was a conversation that consisted of hypocrisy and nonsense. Absolute stands were made on the fact that I was unable to cite specific sources of information while standing out in my front yard talking on a cell phone.
You see, the Apostle Paul said it best. The love of money is the root of all evil. I was making a similar point, but I forgot the key rule when talking to the dogmatic Republicans. I didn't frame it in a religious context. My bad.
My basic point is that Corporations have evolved into a giant money devouring machine that has become so efficient that people are being hurt because of it. The sheer lust for money that is in this country is really what is causing our problems.
My friend being either unable or unwilling to examine his dogmatic belief system, finally let me have it.
Sounds like the old Soviet System. Challenge the claims that are sanctioned by those with power and you are labeled some how mentally deficient.
What's great is, our propaganda system is better than the old Soviet System. As with all totalitarian societies, it is up to the state to enforce the belief system. This is normally done through violence and intimidation. Creating the propaganda is the job of the state.
In America, people were clearly smarter. First, don't let the state really control the resources of society. Let corporations do it. Food, Transportation, Medicine, most of the utilities in this county. Sure, they are sanctioned monopolies, but they are still private companies.
But how to propagandize the people? We can't let the state do that... people are wise to that now. Let's call it Public Relations and let industry do it.
Every business of any significant size has a Public Relations machine. Don't fool yourself, this is propaganda. The whole idea of PR is to manipulate public opinion in favor of whoever is writing the check.
This is evidenced by the fact that spokespeople for these PR firms never are found saying, "Here are the facts. And, boy-o... The facts are shaping up too good for us right now..."
No, manipulate people through have truths, omissions, and outright lies.
Politicians have them too. The Military has them too. In our society, truth is a liability, which brings me back to my friend.
I have started to challenge the beliefs that I am expected to have. I am expected to have them because I live in the United States of America, and boy the most important thing should ever hope for is to become rich! And God bless all those Rich people, for without them we would be like lost children...
I don't buy it. Somethings are more important than money. Health Care for everyone. That's more important than money. Don't give me this crap about taxes causing society to collapse. It's bullshit.
During the Clinton years, the wealthiest 1% of the population had their taxes raised. Did society collapse? No. The rich got richer, wages went up, there was prosperity in America.
What did Bush give us? Tax cuts, tax cuts, tax cuts. Things aren't looking so hot right now.
The vast majority of Americans' interests do not line up with those of the Uber-wealthy. It's that simple. PR (propaganda) is incredibly effective, and that's why most people don't see our current system as against their interests. One day they'll wake up. But will it be too late?
This post got interrupted by that same friend...
No worries though, I am going to share the conversation. I'm not sure why, other than I find it cathartic.
A few notes: I have removed his screen name so no one will bother him. I have changed any references to my name to Hippy. I have changed any references to his name to Bob.
NAME REDACTED: are you mad pookums?
Oklahoma Hippy: Being labeled paranoid because I don't buy into the dogmatic nonsense we have been feed our entire lives tends to piss me off.
NAME REDACTED: you shouldnt let politics get to you like that.
NAME REDACTED: I said it because that what it seemed like
NAME REDACTED: you were the one who hung up on me remember.
NAME REDACTED: and I said you sounded paranoid, not because you were not buying into dogma, but because it sounded crazy.
Oklahoma Hippy: I do remember. But that was a statement that wasn't about policy.
NAME REDACTED: that policy sounded crazy to me
NAME REDACTED: "paranoid" is probably more descript
Oklahoma Hippy: You need to learn in a big damn hurry the difference between disagreeing with someone and labeling them insane.
NAME REDACTED: you need to learn how to take an adjective like man
NAME REDACTED: I don't curse at you Hippy
NAME REDACTED: or tell you what to do.
NAME REDACTED: up to this point in our friendship, honesty has worked fairly well.
NAME REDACTED: but I can pussy foot it if that makes you happier
Oklahoma Hippy: No, you attack the person rather than the arguement.
NAME REDACTED: I did not attack you
NAME REDACTED: your idea was paranoid in my opinion
NAME REDACTED: you take your policy too personally
Oklahoma Hippy: Questioning my mental stability is a little much.
NAME REDACTED: paranoid policy is not an attack on mental stability
Oklahoma Hippy: That's a distinction you conviently failed to make.,
NAME REDACTED: not anymore than calling republicans hitlers
NAME REDACTED: "that sounds paranoid Hippy."
NAME REDACTED: "it sounds like the whole world is out to get oyu"
NAME REDACTED: "you can't hear that?"
NAME REDACTED: I did not say, "you are paranoid"
Oklahoma Hippy: Let's see, we are pushing towards a one party system... we invade other countries without justification, we have concentration camps...
Oklahoma Hippy: I have no idea why I would make that comparison.
NAME REDACTED: look a straw man!
NAME REDACTED: we still have 2 parties
NAME REDACTED: we don't commit genocide
NAME REDACTED: and many people consider the iraq war justified
Oklahoma Hippy: We have a president who hold fake town hall forums where people who disagree with him are filtered out of audience.
NAME REDACTED: Iraqis none the least
Oklahoma Hippy: We've got a pretty good start on a genocide.
NAME REDACTED: clinton did fake forums too
Oklahoma Hippy: Lie.
NAME REDACTED: and you dont know what genocide means
NAME REDACTED: I'm a liar now
Oklahoma Hippy: And, I'm not stupid.
NAME REDACTED: you've changed
NAME REDACTED: you never took this stuff so personally
Oklahoma Hippy: I wasn't attacking you Daniel, I was attacking the stupid claim you made about fake town halls.
Oklahoma Hippy: Things have changed Daniel.
NAME REDACTED: "That's a distinction you conviently failed to make.,"
Oklahoma Hippy: I was making an ironic point.
NAME REDACTED: Hippy, go calm down. tomorrow we'll be friends again.
Oklahoma Hippy: Don't treat me like a petulant child.
NAME REDACTED: oh, I was making an ironic point to when i said "I'm a liar now"
NAME REDACTED: Hippy, I don't know why you think I'm belittling you
Oklahoma Hippy: And the United States is the biggest sponsor of Terrorism in the world.
NAME REDACTED: fine
NAME REDACTED: I agree
Oklahoma Hippy: East Timor, El Salvador, Columbia.
NAME REDACTED: Rwanda
NAME REDACTED: South Korea
NAME REDACTED: Japan
NAME REDACTED: yes the list goes on
NAME REDACTED: Colombia
NAME REDACTED: Chile
NAME REDACTED: Ecuador
NAME REDACTED: Argentina
NAME REDACTED: Panama
Oklahoma Hippy: I agree with all of that.
NAME REDACTED: Nicaragua
NAME REDACTED: Iceland
NAME REDACTED: Antarctica
NAME REDACTED: Canada
NAME REDACTED: you win.
NAME REDACTED: American is evil
NAME REDACTED: we;'re infidels
Oklahoma Hippy: That' what I'm talking about.
NAME REDACTED: good we agree
Oklahoma Hippy: You're the one being irrational now.
NAME REDACTED: you think I'm being irrational.
Oklahoma Hippy: If we cannot hold ourselves to the same standard we hold every other country, then were do we get the moral authority to intervene anywhere?
NAME REDACTED: I'm not going to hang up
NAME REDACTED: we should let bad things happen and not intervene. I agree
NAME REDACTED: We must require perfection before intervention
NAME REDACTED: total agreement
Oklahoma Hippy: If we funded indonesia with money and weapons while they slaughtered hundres of thousands of East Timoresse, why does that not offend you?
NAME REDACTED: it does
NAME REDACTED: because we have sin in one part of our life, we must not try to make others better.
NAME REDACTED: apparantly that is evil
NAME REDACTED: if you can't fix it all, fix nothing
Oklahoma Hippy: When we are in Iraq to spread freedom and democracy, then why does it not offend you that your governement lied to you so we could go into Iraq, take the oil, and build 14 permanant military bases there?
NAME REDACTED: your right.
NAME REDACTED: our soaring oil costs forced us to steal their oil
NAME REDACTED: to bring down our own oil costs
NAME REDACTED: to 2.25 a gallon
NAME REDACTED: that was evil
Oklahoma Hippy: What was your expression? Look, a straw man? Well there he is.
NAME REDACTED: for someone who's checked out of dogma, you'r policy does sound familiar
NAME REDACTED: like liberal dogma.
NAME REDACTED: hey, I'm agreeing with you man. thats what you want right?
Oklahoma Hippy: Be as pissy and contemptuous as you want.
NAME REDACTED: I promis you I'm not being pissy. I'm just typing that I agree.
NAME REDACTED: I don't know who you're fighting with.
NAME REDACTED: we used to be able to talk about this stuff
NAME REDACTED: hey, you wanna cut and paste me back this convo. I x-ed it out accidentally
Oklahoma Hippy: The people who run this governement are motivated by greed. The ones who aren't are marginalized.
NAME REDACTED: amen
Oklahoma Hippy: What did the Apostle Paul say about the love of money, Daniel? Or do you get to edit that out becuase it's so Unamerican?
NAME REDACTED: root of all evil.
Oklahoma Hippy: That's right.
NAME REDACTED: I don't know wjhy your preaching to me.
Oklahoma Hippy: It's the root of all evil.
NAME REDACTED: I took a pay cut to do a public job.
Oklahoma Hippy: I commend you.
Oklahoma Hippy: Would you take a higher tax rate to provide health care to everyone?
NAME REDACTED: take it all man.
Oklahoma Hippy: If we're supposed to be "looking out for the least amongst us," why should any child in this country not be able to go to the doctor?
NAME REDACTED: or get to be born even.
Oklahoma Hippy: Why should any child in this country ever have to go hungry.
Oklahoma Hippy: Why should those who are so concerned for the unborn become so indifferent once the child is born?
NAME REDACTED: that's a lie man
Oklahoma Hippy: Is it?
NAME REDACTED: the church has more orphanages and child care faciilites than any other org
Oklahoma Hippy: Medicaid is being slashed all over the country.
Oklahoma Hippy: That affects children.
Oklahoma Hippy: Primarily children.
NAME REDACTED: poor children
NAME REDACTED: orhphans have it bad regardless
NAME REDACTED: unless you're white.
NAME REDACTED: can you send me the first part of our convo. It's all gone on my computer
Oklahoma Hippy: Yeah, it's better that we give Paris Hilton a tax break than look out for people.
Oklahoma Hippy: I'll email it to you.
NAME REDACTED: taxes are good
NAME REDACTED: they're great for the economy, poor people, even rich people.
Oklahoma Hippy: They were during the 90s.
NAME REDACTED: the internet economy was good during the 90s
NAME REDACTED: its better to raise taxes as economy grows.
NAME REDACTED: not to raise as the economy slows
Oklahoma Hippy: Starting in 93, that was demonstrated to be a falicy.
Oklahoma Hippy: 22 million new jobs.
Oklahoma Hippy: Highest home ownership in history.
Oklahoma Hippy: Good thing we got rid of those socialist taxes.
NAME REDACTED: my statement wasnt a fallacy. the economy started to grow during HW bush's term.
NAME REDACTED: and taxes were raised
NAME REDACTED: the internet economy created a bubble
NAME REDACTED: and everyone was happy
NAME REDACTED: if the economy is riding on a bubble, some more taxes probably wont hurt it
NAME REDACTED: that's not a liberal or conservative statment
Oklahoma Hippy: The bubble didn't start until 98. It burst 2 years later. How can you be so dismissive of 5 years of unbelievable economic growth?
NAME REDACTED: I'm not. I don't know why you assume things about me.
Oklahoma Hippy: Oh, it couldn't have been Clinton's policies... It was the first Bush, and now Bush 43 has to deal with Clinton's mess. Talk about passing the buck.
NAME REDACTED: I may have lost the first half of our convo, but I don't recall typing that
NAME REDACTED: geez
NAME REDACTED: I'm done Hippy.
NAME REDACTED: I can't talk like this to you.
NAME REDACTED: things have changed if this is how it's going to be.
Oklahoma Hippy: The Bush administration's approach to tax cuts framed a new stage in the Great Fiscal Debate, an ongoing clash about the effects of fiscal discipline and of tax cuts on economic growth. This argument first affected policy in a significant way during the 1980 presidential campaign, when a group of conservative "supply-siders" attained prominence. The core of the supply-side theory was that lower marginal tax rates would cause people to "supply" more labor, working more and harder, which would increase growth--and the positive effect on growth would be so large that government tax revenue would actually increase rather than decrease in response to the tax cut.
George H.W. Bush, Ronald Reagan's opponent for the Republican nomination in the 1980 election, referred to this as "voodoo economics." And not all of Reagan's advisers believed this theory. Some committed conservatives understood that reducing the size of government is difficult because of the popularity of most spending programs of significant size. Tax cuts seemed to offer a way around this problem. If government's revenues were squeezed, this line of reasoning went, spending could no longer grow and might even be forced to shrink. Despite that theory, spending throughout the 1980s consistently and significantly exceeded levels --necessary to offset the tax cuts. The result was large deficits that kept increasing during the early 1990s and were projected by the outgoing administration in 1992 to grow even more in the years ahead.
Previous message was not received by NAME REDACTED because of error: Your message was refused by the AOL Instant Messenger server, probably because the message was too big. Try making the message shorter and send it again.
Oklahoma Hippy: The Bush administration's approach to tax cuts framed a new stage in the Great Fiscal Debate, an ongoing clash about the effects of fiscal discipline and of tax cuts on economic growth. This argument first affected policy in a significant way during the 1980 presidential campaign, when a group of conservative "supply-siders" attained prominence. The core of the supply-side theory was that lower marginal tax rates would cause people to "supply" more labor, working more and harder, which would increase growth--and the positive effect on growth would be so large that government tax revenue would actually increase rather than decrease in response to the tax cut.
Oklahoma Hippy:
George H.W. Bush, Ronald Reagan's opponent for the Republican nomination in the 1980 election, referred to this as "voodoo economics." And not all of Reagan's advisers believed this theory. Some committed conservatives understood that reducing the size of government is difficult because of the popularity of most spending programs of significant size. Tax cuts seemed to offer a way around this problem. If government's revenues were squeezed, this line of reasoning went, spending could no longer grow and might even be forced to shrink. Despite that theory, spending throughout the 1980s consistently and significantly exceeded levels --necessary to offset the tax cuts. The result was large deficits that kept increasing during the early 1990s and were projected by the outgoing administration in 1992 to grow even more in the years ahead.
NAME REDACTED: even when I agree with you, you're disagreeable.
NAME REDACTED: what are you looking for in me?
NAME REDACTED: you hang up on me when I disagree
NAME REDACTED: you attribute disagreeing when I agree
Oklahoma Hippy: No, that's not why I hung up.
Oklahoma Hippy: And what I am look for is a little respect.
NAME REDACTED: you assumed I said something that I didn't
NAME REDACTED: when I said that there were christians being persecuted in america,
NAME REDACTED: you response wasn't the most open minded
NAME REDACTED: either
Oklahoma Hippy: Everyone gets along with you just fine, as long as we concede the title of smartest guy in the room. You get challanged even a little bit, and suddenly it's personal. You get sarcastic and personal.
NAME REDACTED: Hippy, I'm sarcastic when I'm happy too.
NAME REDACTED: and I'm not the one hanging up on people.
Oklahoma Hippy: You're right, and I'll own that. I shouldn't have done that.
NAME REDACTED: it wasnt personal against me. I was just chatting and giving you my feedback.
NAME REDACTED: but then all of a sudden bang
NAME REDACTED: now I'm the guy who apparantly has to be the smartest person in the room.
NAME REDACTED: fine.
Oklahoma Hippy: Why does a discussion always have to devolve into a battle of personal battle for superiority.
NAME REDACTED: you believe your things. I believe mine. is it fair for either to give up on it?
NAME REDACTED: should I not argue my side any less than yours?
NAME REDACTED: perhaps you've forgotten the value of genuine no-men.
Oklahoma Hippy: That's what I'm talking about right there.
NAME REDACTED: but my job isn't to validate all your belliefs
NAME REDACTED: when I disagree now, I'm battling for supremacy?
NAME REDACTED: I'm trying to be the smartest person in the room?
Oklahoma Hippy: No Daniel, you battle for supremecy for your own reasons. You try and be the smartest person in the room. The fact that you disagree isn't the genesis for those things.
NAME REDACTED: I don't know what any of that means
NAME REDACTED: nor do I guess to know what personal weaknesses you have.
NAME REDACTED: but clearly, dealing with me is now one of them.
Oklahoma Hippy: It's that you cannot accept that someone has a diffent point of view, ever. It's that if you don't feel that you're making headway in converting someone to your bliefs, then you start trying to find reasons about the person to invalidate what they're saying.
NAME REDACTED: Oh, fyi, quoting editorials isn't the same as quoting facts.
Oklahoma Hippy: I agree with that.
Oklahoma Hippy: But, this guy has proven to me that he knows what the hell he's talking about.
NAME REDACTED: Hippy, the point of debate is to convince someone, if not yourself.
NAME REDACTED: and I don't attack people if I dont believe I'm going to convert them.
Oklahoma Hippy: Yes you do.
Oklahoma Hippy: You always have.
NAME REDACTED: like in junior high?
NAME REDACTED: freshman year at OU?
NAME REDACTED: it's been 10 freakin years
Oklahoma Hippy: And it's still going on right now.
NAME REDACTED: ok. prove it
NAME REDACTED: unless you're making it all up.
Oklahoma Hippy: NAME REDACTED: and you dont know what genocide means
Oklahoma Hippy: Do you really believe that?
NAME REDACTED: if you think what the US does is genocide, you have the wrong definition
NAME REDACTED: well, therea re the indians
NAME REDACTED: but I dont think thats what you meant
Oklahoma Hippy: Actually, I have the correct definition. And we have supported it with weapons, money, training and political cover for the last 60 years.
NAME REDACTED: which ethnic group?
NAME REDACTED: the unborn.
NAME REDACTED: ok. that is a genocide
Oklahoma Hippy: The East Timorese
Oklahoma Hippy: 1975
NAME REDACTED: oh. I thought you were taliking about present america
NAME REDACTED: hey man, the US did shady stuff in the past. no argrument there
Oklahoma Hippy: 25 years ago is not exactly the ancient past.
NAME REDACTED: thats 30 years ago
NAME REDACTED: and it was a diffrent america
Oklahoma Hippy: I disagree.
Oklahoma Hippy: How about Iraq.
NAME REDACTED: you call that genocide?
NAME REDACTED: you think we planned to kill off all iraqis?
Oklahoma Hippy: Of course not, only the ones who resist.
Oklahoma Hippy: 100,000 in 2 years.
Oklahoma Hippy: 100,000 people.
NAME REDACTED: I think theres an intent element to genocide
Oklahoma Hippy: Sure there is.
Oklahoma Hippy: We fixed the intelligence.
NAME REDACTED: there is death as intentional
NAME REDACTED: and there is death as a secondary product of other action
Oklahoma Hippy: We made a special effort through the use of disinformation to go in there.
Oklahoma Hippy: Now we're killing people.
Oklahoma Hippy: And it's not going to stop.
NAME REDACTED: then we shoiuld ban cars right?
Oklahoma Hippy: There goes that straw man that you hate so much.
NAME REDACTED: i dont hate him. sometimes he's a good teaching ttook
NAME REDACTED: tool
Oklahoma Hippy: Since when are you about moral relativism?
NAME REDACTED: it's not moral relativism.
Oklahoma Hippy: Sure it is.
Oklahoma Hippy: Killing 100,000 people is fine with you.
NAME REDACTED: moral relativism is the antithesis of the natural law concept of right and wrong
NAME REDACTED: what if killing 100k saved 100 million?
NAME REDACTED: still wrong?
Oklahoma Hippy: Interesting concept, that that isn't the choice is it?
NAME REDACTED: it is
Oklahoma Hippy: No, it's not.
NAME REDACTED: democracy is always a long term plan
NAME REDACTED: not to you
Oklahoma Hippy: Where were 100,000,000 people going to die if whe didn't invade Iraq?
NAME REDACTED: in this country, we get to vote based on our values. I value democracy in the long term so I voted accordingly
NAME REDACTED: unless you can tell the future, it's just guessing.
NAME REDACTED: but dictatorships tend to be more dangerous to people than free countries
Oklahoma Hippy: Unless it's a lie. Then it's just a lie.
NAME REDACTED: Hippy, you gotta play with me here and consider other arguments, if not for the sake of good debate
Oklahoma Hippy: Actually, the US has demonstrated itself to be the most dangerous country in the world over the last half century.
NAME REDACTED: consider that there exist people like me who think that saddam regardless of weapons or chemicals or money, poses a great harm to people.
NAME REDACTED: people like me want to change that
NAME REDACTED: no consider that people like me are dissatisified with sins we see in our own country. we want to change that too
Oklahoma Hippy: The problem is, the evidence doesn't back up such a claim.
NAME REDACTED: in free republics, the policy changes, it adjusts.
NAME REDACTED: you don't believe that people like me exist in the voting community?
Oklahoma Hippy: Let's imagine for a moment that there was a Giant Robot who said he could destroy the earth, but wouldn't so long as we gave him all the back people.
Oklahoma Hippy: That's about as based in reality as claiming that invading Iraq saved 100 Million lives.
NAME REDACTED: so dictatorships are safer than free republics in the long term?
Oklahoma Hippy: I don't doubt that people share your beliefs.
NAME REDACTED: it seems to me that the soviet system killed a lot more than say the american or the current western eurpean system
Oklahoma Hippy: With a dictatorship, you at least know the score.
NAME REDACTED: not true
Oklahoma Hippy: That's not to say they're preferable.
Oklahoma Hippy: They're not.
NAME REDACTED: but I'm leaving.
Oklahoma Hippy: Later.
NAME REDACTED: I think we should probably talk less
NAME REDACTED: cuz I think you don't respect me.
NAME REDACTED signed off at 10:04:06 PM.
This is one of my best friends in the world. I love him to death and I would walk through fire for him if he asked me to. And I think it's really sad that we left this conversation with the exact same thought. We both felt that we were not being shown respect.
We were good friends in Jr. High and High School. We were roomates in college. He was a groomsman at my wedding. He's been there for all my greatest moments and has been there for my darkest days. And I care for him deeply.
I am overwhelmed with sadness right now.
Disclaimer: This diary was written over the course of three hours, during which I expereinced a multitude of emotional states, so keep that in mind when reading.