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What is a guest worker Visa and how is that different from immigration?

Right now we are inundated with claims that we need more guest workers in high tech.  Specifically Intel is claiming:

"We can't hire people," said Jenifer Verdery, director of work force policy at Intel.

Really?  Then why is it Intel just fired 10,500 workers and 1,000 managers?

Why is it that the total number of IT jobs is still 17.4% down and Design jobs are still 8.7% down from their 2001.  Did 645,000 tech professionals just magically disappear?  Were they sucked up to space by extraterrestrials and that is the reason the US needs more tech workers?

So, back to my original question, what is a guest worker Visa?  Is is a temporary Visa for a foreign national to work in another country and the Visa is controlled by or contingent upon the employer.

Let's look back at a very old employment vehicle called indentured servitude.

Indentured Servitude is a system where the employer brings a foreign national to another country, where that foreign national must work for a period of time to pay back the costs of passage into the new country.  It's often a form of  Unfree labor.  

So, let's see, if someone on an H-1B Visa quits they must pay back that company all of their relocation costs and most certainly do not get a trip back to their home country.  If they are on a L-1 guest worker Visa, there  is no law protecting them.  If an L-1 is fired, they are stuck here with no legal work status or money to return home.  Technically an employer who fires a H-1B must pay for a trip home, but there are many abuses of this and they also can be stuck. The temporary worker's status becomes illegal in just 10 days.  

They are also paid an average of $18,000 less than the American worker who was just displaced.

Originally posted to BobOak on Wed Nov 15, 2006 at 12:08 PM PST.


Are guest workers the new indentured Servants

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Comment Preferences

  •  A Guest Worker VISA (9+ / 0-)

    Is a way of granting permission to employers to hire someone and not follow the labor laws that govern the employment of every other person in the workforce.

    It's a "get out of jail free card" for mistreating workers, paying below-market wages, eluding workplace safety laws and providing benefits.


    I loved the Intel quote in your article.

    •  Its a trojan horse program (8+ / 0-)

      that undercuts pay and training programs here.  In California we need at least 14,000 RN.s now.  All local JC programs are on wait lists.  The legislature needs to fund sufficient slots to train our kids and laid off employees to take these jobs rather than importing nurses.

      Labor's needs must be met first, then what we can't furnish we can import at full wages.

      "I said, 'wait a minute, Chester, you know I'm a peaceful man.'" Robbie Robertson -8.13, -4.56

      by NearlyNormal on Wed Nov 15, 2006 at 12:14:08 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  yes (6+ / 0-)

        I also think all professionals should join forces.  The US Chamber of Commerce, ITAA, AHA and so on are picking off working America by attacking each profession separately, say auto workers and then steel workers and then engineers, then scientists, then teachers, then nurses...

        and we're not joining forces together which would enable us to stop the Corporate cheap labor lobby.

        by BobOak on Wed Nov 15, 2006 at 12:16:31 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Before Anyone Goes Off on Immigrants (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    theboz, stitchmd, NearlyNormal

    which seems to happen quite a lot in these diaries, I would urge people to check out this CNN article...

    about the mother of a 7 year old - US-born boy who's in danger of being deported because his mom's out of status.

    This stuff affects families - US citizens - not just the illegal immigrant.

    Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering. -8.75 / -6.10

    by Alegre on Wed Nov 15, 2006 at 12:10:41 PM PST

    •  asdf (7+ / 0-)

      just to be clear this diary is not even talking about anything related to that issue...

      this is 100% about labor arbitrage on both sides of the story.

      by BobOak on Wed Nov 15, 2006 at 12:13:38 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Look at the Comment Below Bob (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        It's not uncommon to see guys like that crawl out of the woodwork in your diaries.

        The hate.  The bile.  The total disregard for families.  It makes me sick.

        I tried to head that off by reminding people that we're talking about other PEOPLE here.  Families that happen to include american born citizens like you and me.

        Nothing's black and white any more.  It probably never was.

        Guys like the one below you forget that.  Whether intentionally or not - they're dead wrong.

        Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering. -8.75 / -6.10

        by Alegre on Wed Nov 15, 2006 at 12:52:17 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  asdf (0+ / 0-)

          ok, please calm down.  I also have been attacked, troll rated when not only did I work very hard this campaign season for Democrats, almost every diary trying to differentiate between what is in our national interests, working America interests gets attacked by the 10 or so open border people who think every issue connected with keyword "immigration" is actually about racism.

          I personally think it is a huge mistake to focus in on that woman and her kid and I personally don't care about it.  Yes, I am aware that breaking up families is something that's going to be a major issue when it comes down to "pathway to citizenship" time (which hopefully will be determined on a sane set of criteria after the system is fixed).

          But, you must realize on the other side, the Cheap corporate labor lobby is pushing their agenda by claiming everyone is a hate monger racist!

          So, both of you, please get off the woman and her kid topic...

          if you want to focus on a subgroup of illegals who we should consider deporting, let's look at the major felons ok?  

          In other words, can't we all start looking at this sanely but realistic on the effects of the American worker, national sovereignty instead of picking apart the issue looking for any sign of racism and hate in order to defend basically impractical and indefensible positions?

          All that will happen as a result of this phony wedge issue increase,  is Corporations will gain a cartel like control over domestic immigration policy and labor markets and we're all going to be very poor together.

          by BobOak on Wed Nov 15, 2006 at 01:07:44 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  No Need to Calm Down (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            I'm not upset - I'm pissed off.

            Not at you but at the people who seem to crawl out of the woodwork whenever one of your diaries on immigration get posted.

            And I'm sure you worked your butt off in the last election.  Your a Kossak after all - that's what we do here.

            As for that mother and her American-born child... you can't NOT focus on them.  They're a part of this mess and like it or not, that boy has a RIGHT to stay here in the states.  Who's going to take care of him if his mom's deported?  Who?

            He'll be deported right along with her. That's WRONG and you know it.

            Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering. -8.75 / -6.10

            by Alegre on Wed Nov 15, 2006 at 01:12:26 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  The only hate that has been expressed here (0+ / 0-)

          Has come from you.

          <div style="font-size:10px;text-align:center;background-color:#ffd;color:#f33">If the terriers and bariffs are torn down, this economy will grow - G. Bush

          by superscalar on Wed Nov 15, 2006 at 01:14:03 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  come on super (0+ / 0-)

            both of you please, stop it.

            I'm very serious, we are about to be majorly attacked by the Cheap corporate labor lobby and believe me, nobody who is focused on working people will get what they want.

            It's really time to put the places where major disagreement is aside and focus on some common goals...

            which I sure hope are a strong middle class and working America for one.

            Else, we're not going to have a Race to the Bottom, we're going to have a rollercoaster to the bottom...

            so come on, let's please quit with the extremes on dailykos so we don't get steamrolled.


            by BobOak on Wed Nov 15, 2006 at 01:20:50 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

    •  PLEASE!!! (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Perdurabo, BobOak, Southside, buddabelly

      You and others KEEP trying to make your case by using stories where if the whole truth is known, your case falls apart. You're making my head hurt.

      Elvira Arellano was deported in 1997 before she had a family.

      American boy, 7, fighting for mom: "End the deportations"

      Arellano illegally crossed into the United States in 1997 and was quickly sent back. She returned within days, living for three years in Oregon before moving to Chicago in 2000.

      Elvira Arellano re-enters the United States after deportation (a felony which carries a maximum twenty year sentence), takes a job (committing Federal Perjury, a crime which many Democrats have been telling us we should send some Republicans to jail for), has a child, and then screams 'don't deport me I have an American born child who would not know how to survive in Mexico'. That doesn't work, so she then sends the child to Mexico to whip up support in Mexico to help here stay in the United States.

      By the way, the CNN quote 'End the deportations' means open borders, plain and simple. At that point that the US can no longer deport anybody we have open borders.

      By the way - this is cute.

      because his mom's out of status

      What the fuck does 'out of status' mean?

      <div style="font-size:10px;text-align:center;background-color:#ffd;color:#f33">If the terriers and bariffs are torn down, this economy will grow - G. Bush

      by superscalar on Wed Nov 15, 2006 at 12:29:01 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Who made you king? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Alegre, mariachi mama

        Why should you get to decide what families get to be destroyed by the U.S. government?  We all know you are full of hatred already, so you clearly can not take an honest, unbiased look and see that you are advocating the destruction of families and putting your greed before the wellbeing of children and the oppressed.

      •  Feck Off (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        theboz, mariachi mama

        I'm talking about a US-CITIZEN - a child of 7 who'll be deported right along with her if she's sent home.

        You hearltless effing bastard.

        People like you make me sick - you care nothing for the families of the people you seem to hate.

        Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering. -8.75 / -6.10

        by Alegre on Wed Nov 15, 2006 at 12:49:02 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I actually (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Alegre, BobOak

          agree with you but I think this comment is a personal attack, which makes it both unnecessary and against the site policy.  I almost never troll rate because I don't think it helps people.  It's okay to disagree but personal attacks aren't okay.

          BTW, I liked your diary on the soldier being screwed by the army.  It was great information to have.

          "For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, and the dream shall never die." Ted Kennedy

          by sobermom on Wed Nov 15, 2006 at 01:00:14 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Fair Enough (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            theboz, sobermom

            Might have been over the top but given the fact that my own children are US citizens with an immigrant father, that jerk hit a nerve when he dismissed that poor child and his mother as (basically) nothing more than trash that needed to be taken out and tossed in to the dumpster.

            Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering. -8.75 / -6.10

            by Alegre on Wed Nov 15, 2006 at 01:14:15 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I did nothing of the sort (0+ / 0-)

              he dismissed that poor child and his mother as (basically) nothing more than trash

              I simply related the truth. You know it, I know it.

              You come into this diary, create your victim out of whole cloth, hold it up in the air and scream 'don't blame the victim' and when everybody doesn't fall in line lock step and commence to doin' the 'wailing and teeth gnashing rag' you get pissed off.

              I am just so sorry I ruined what was an otherwise perfectly rosy day for you.

              nothing more than trash that needed to be taken out and tossed in to the dumpster

              The difference between you and me is that I know that we cannot have immigration law with only the threat of deportation. That is what got us to where we are now.

              You either want to pretend that we can, or you, like eugene, theboz, and others here, want to pretend that we can exist with open borders, no notion of a citizenry, taxation without representation, and have all the social programs we can eat - simultaneously.

              Unfortunately my view of the world doesn't boil down to a campfire, s'mores, and a rousing chorus of Kumbaya. I am happy that yours does - for as long as it will last.

              <div style="font-size:10px;text-align:center;background-color:#ffd;color:#f33">If the terriers and bariffs are torn down, this economy will grow - G. Bush

              by superscalar on Wed Nov 15, 2006 at 02:26:39 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Sorry - Gotta Call Bullshit (0+ / 0-)

                You totally dismissed that family because his mother was illegal and had the nerve to try to come back into the states after she was kicked out once before.

                HOW DARE that child be born to an illegal immigrant???!!!

                He must deserve to get deported right along with his mother.

                Or are you offering to adopt that child and provide the love and support he needs once his mother's back in Mexico?

                (crickets chirping)

                Didn't think so.

                Your problem is that you totally ignore the child in your (frothing at the mouth) effort to get rid of the undesirables (translate - brown immigrants).  You ignore the fact that they have children who're born right here in the good ole U S of A.  That child is an AMERICAN with the exact same rights as you and I.

                As for your crack about Kumbaya etc - go fuck yerself pal.  You don't have to be a tree-huggin' hippy to show a little compassion toward children - fellow-citizens.

                Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering. -8.75 / -6.10

                by Alegre on Wed Nov 15, 2006 at 02:59:59 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  Oh - and by the way... (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:

                unless you're 100% Native American...

                Ahh forget it - I'm not wasting any more time on you.

                Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering. -8.75 / -6.10

                by Alegre on Wed Nov 15, 2006 at 03:01:26 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

          •  There's a history here (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            sobermom, mariachi mama

            superscalar always enters immigration-related diaries and posts stuff like that, so it's easy to see why people get frustrated with him.  I would post some specifics but I haven't been too active for a while so I'd rather not dig up old arguments.  Still, I would encourage you to go back through his comment history and see why he frustrates people so much.

      •  As for your "Takes A Job" Crack (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        I suppose you were also up for that job cleaning bathrooms at O'Hare then eh?

        Gimme a fuckin' break.

        Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering. -8.75 / -6.10

        by Alegre on Wed Nov 15, 2006 at 12:54:27 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  STOP MUDDYING THE WATERS! (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      Your link is irrelevant to the discussion at hand. We are talking about high-skilled visas and how many should be given out. It has nothing to do with that woman.

    •  Oh absolutely (0+ / 0-)

      These companies are taking advantage of the immigrants desire for a better circumstance, pure and simple.

  •  What Jenifer meant to say.. (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    DFWmom, sobermom, Sychotic1, stitchmd, BobOak

    "We can't hire people [with advanced degrees that want to work for shitty wages]"

  •  I'm guessing (0+ / 0-)

    the diarist is an out of work tech guy?

    •  Would it make a difference? (5+ / 0-)

      What is true is true, no matter what his work status might be.

      And for the record, I have seen this visa program in action.  The companies pay them pittance compared to their coworkers.

      There are bagels in the fridge

      by Sychotic1 on Wed Nov 15, 2006 at 12:30:36 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yet somehow (0+ / 0-)

        they manage to find people who are not only willing to work for such pittances, but are well educated and generally more productive.

        The longer you bitch about it, the less time you'll have to adapt and the farther you'll fall behind.

        •  please. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Sychotic1, BobOak

          They're more productive because if they are fired, they are fucking deported.

          Get a clue.

          •  Yes and no (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            I've dealt with quite a few people, and the worry over losing their H1B visa is not that strong anymore.  There are plenty of jobs in India, but they get paid better here, plus it looks better to have U.S. work on their resume.

            In reality, we Americans are not as hard-working.  We are much too laid back in some cases, and in others we view ourselves as special somehow and view the users as "lusers" instead of valuable customers.  American I.T. workers have treated the business side pretty badly, we have ran up idiotic expenses, and even the dotcom crash didn't teach us any lessons about how to be nicer to our "customers."

            One of the things I'm working on is pushing ITIL, a U.K. based I.T. philosophy that helps organize the processes and functions of I.T.  I think once companies start using it, they're going to cut down on wasting money and start changing the way we all think about our "users" and see them as partners instead of annoyances.  Hopefully after a major attitude change, and a cultural change, the American worker can start to compete again with our foreign counterparts.

            •  ah a "Macaca" moment (0+ / 0-)

              So, Americans are lazy and stupid and also you are claiming that Americans are not Indians, Chinese?

              I see.  Troll rated for racism and discrimination based on national origin.


              by BobOak on Wed Nov 15, 2006 at 01:17:52 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  i don't think that was the intent.. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:

                I know theboz from way back on other sites.. and that certainly wasn't the intent of the comment. Furthermore, you put words in his mouth.

                •  well (0+ / 0-)

                  That's the result...

                  we have Americans being dissed in the biggest of ways, insulted, told they are lazy, they are stupid and they are uneducated...

                  that is so outrageous considering now we also have dumped $17k of student loan debt for this now deemed useless college education upon them.


                  by BobOak on Wed Nov 15, 2006 at 01:23:32 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Thanks (0+ / 0-)

                  Now I'm going to feel bad if I say something very offensive to Bob.

              •  Grow up (3+ / 1-)
                Recommended by:
                Politburo, stitchmd, Daaaaave
                Hidden by:

                You know exactly what I was talking about.  Ethnicity has nothing to do with it, but being educated from at least elementary school up in the U.S. does.  Our culture stinks of idiocy.  We're raised to view intelligent people as dorks, and to admire professional athletes who are often on drugs and abuse women.  Our education system is even worse than that of many third world countries.

                So Indians and Chinese that come here on H1B visas tend to have a better work ethic and are better educated.  This is on average, as there are always exceptions.  However, as soon as they become permanent residents and raise families, their children end up like the rest of the slobs, meaning you and me.

          •  Ha (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            I work a few miles from the bulk of Intel's Portland campuses and yeah...those Indian employees look so very stressed at lunch waiting for their dosas that they'll be deported soon. The local Health and Science University employs a huge number of Chinese research scientists and the only one I've ever heard deported was due to his forgetting to resubmit his visa. In fact, the current issue of Science shows 20% of all life scientists in the US have either permanent resident visas or other temporary visas.

            You think they need fear tactics? Look at the number of Indians trying to get work visas in the states. Look at Sergey Brin complain that current immigration laws keep him from filling positions because there aren't any good ol' homegrown apple pie n' baseball Americans qualified to do the work.

        •  I'm assuming that by 'adapt' you mean (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          vivacia, Sychotic1, BobOak

          accept lower wages for a job you've trained for, despite your student loans and deferring compensation for such training.

          Am I right?

    •  no actually (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      vivacia, stitchmd, Southside

      You know you can be aware of labor economics and macro economic trends without being a displaced worker.

      Some of us care about the United States economic future and can contemplate the concept of:

      There for the Grace of God Go I

      by BobOak on Wed Nov 15, 2006 at 12:32:50 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Labor economics (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        show that protectionism is the last resort of a dying industry. Labor is just another commodity and being an American isn't enough.

        And it's "There but for the grace of God go I". Food for thought next time you want to rail against a U of Bangalore graduate with all the tools to succeed except the accident of his/her birth.

        •  uh (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          vivacia, stitchmd

          Labor economics has nothing to do with protectionism.

          Now which countries just blew bast the United States in the economic competitiveness rankings?

          Were they Finland and Sweden?  

          Which countries are outright socialist?

          The protectionism rhetoric is not applicable to simply writing solid economic, trade and labor policy that is in the majority interests, the macro economic interests and the national interests.

          I would claim our current policies are protectionist.

          The United States current trade/labor/economic/tax policies protect the Corporate CEOs and other Ruffians who are robbing the nation blind.

          by BobOak on Wed Nov 15, 2006 at 12:47:12 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  I actually (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    hired a guy on an H1-B that I submitted for an agency where I used to work.  And there were a number of factors in play, economics on the part of the agency (although indirectly), and diversity for me.  The agency was a battered women's shelter and they had never had a man on staff before.  The man I hired was from the Carribean and he was great with the kids who had witnessed abuse and he was a good person for the women to interact with during their stay.

    I didn't go looking for him, he came to us in the applicant pool and I knew I wanted him right away;  He had just finished graduate school and had a year on the student visa to work after he graduated.  Then he needed an H1-B to stay here.  The process of applying for the H1-B was a nightmare and I needed help both from the staff at the school he attended and from the Irish Cultural Center, which was used to visa applications.  He didn't stay for his full allotted time because of family issues at home.  But he was a good hire and I would do it again.

    "For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, and the dream shall never die." Ted Kennedy

    by sobermom on Wed Nov 15, 2006 at 12:51:08 PM PST

    •  Pascrell DeLauro (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      vivacia, sobermom

      There is a good side but that doesn't defeat the argument above.

      If you want to get your guy in, yet stop the labor arbitrage and abuses:

      Rep. Pascrell's bill, H.R. 43278, the "Defend the American Dream Act of
      2005"  reforms the program to stop the above

      as does:

      HR 3381 DeLauro, L-1
      L-1 Nonimmigrant Reform Act

      by BobOak on Wed Nov 15, 2006 at 12:57:56 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Oh no (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        theboz, BobOak

        I agree with you and see the H1-Bs being used by corporations as similar to union busting.  I wasn't trying to negate your arguement.  I'm well aware the my experience was unusual but I think that is the way H1-Bs should actually be used.

        "For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, and the dream shall never die." Ted Kennedy

        by sobermom on Wed Nov 15, 2006 at 01:03:33 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  ty (0+ / 0-)

          Actually helped me bring up the reforms that still allow international talent to come here.

          a lot of people think the minute you mention this it's 100% "no new immigrants" or some ridiculous notion, not so.

          by BobOak on Wed Nov 15, 2006 at 01:09:59 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  That's the kind of reason you SHOULD (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      vivacia, sobermom, BobOak

      use an H1-B: to provide some services that you can't get in a local hire, or if no one locally fits the bill. That, to me, is a justifiable use of the service and what it is designed for.

      What the diarist is talking about, I think, is that H1-Bs are being used to supplant American-trained people simply because they will work for a lower wage. Lay off your techies, bring in imports from India (or somewhere else, it's just an example.) It's cheaper in the short run but the long term effects on jobs here in the US could be very bad.

      •  I agree (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        stitchmd, BobOak

        with the diarist and should have made it clear in my comment that I was not disagreeing with him, only throwing in personal experience.  And I agree with you that the way David used his H1-B is the way it should be done, on an individual basis to fit unique needs--not as a general hiring policy.

        "For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, and the dream shall never die." Ted Kennedy

        by sobermom on Wed Nov 15, 2006 at 01:06:06 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  I might bring over 10 H1B workers (0+ / 0-)

    I used to rant and rail against this like most tech workers do, but now that I'm seeing the other side of it, everything makes sense.

    The real base problem is one of education.  Our education system, including our colleges, are a waste of time and fail us.  While in the U.S., we teach our I.T. people how to build circuits or the theory behind the different types of array structures in C programming, the Indians are teaching their people to become Oracle DBAs, Peoplesoft consultants, and other REAL skills that are needed to get a job.  U.S. colleges produce idiots that know nothing about technology or business (keep in mind that I am a tech worker from the U.S. so I include myself in that term.)

    So, when the heads of these companies bemoan the lack of skilled I.T. professionals in the U.S., it's not all based on greed and undercutting people.  It's based on the lack of people in the U.S. being educated.

    In my case, I keep getting calls and emails on a daily basis about jobs.  Obviously, I can't go to all these jobs, yet the demand is so high that they are willing to pay really good rates.  I can't find anyone in the U.S. to send on these contracts for me, so my only option left is to import workers to do it.  Yesterday I got 12 emails and three phone calls looking for someone with my skills.  I'd guess there are less than 100 people in the U.S. knowledgeable enough to do what I do, and all of them are already working.

    Personally, I'm a huge fan of immigration.  If I do bring these guys over, I'm going to help them get their green cards if I can too.  Sure, they might quit working for me as soon as they get them, but I would much rather have someone skilled work for me for a few years then quit than have some moron out of college that doesn't even know SQL work for me and piss off my clients and make sure I never work again.

    The future is a global economy, and we have to figure out how to make it function in a way that does not victimize people.  Foreign workers are currently better qualified on average than their American counterparts.  I would much rather help people in the U.S., especially the unemployed, get jobs.  That's why I also fight politically and am involved.  I would like to see college be paid for by the U.S. government, and I would like to see education provided for free at the expense of the employer to people who are laid off.

    We have to do something to break the stagnant higher education system up and replace it with something modern like India is doing, instead of just a way for dumbass professors to get paid for the rest of their lives while they have graduate students teach their students.

    •  bogus (0+ / 0-)

      You absolutely cannot claim that people who have graduated with Bachelors, Masters and PHDs from MIT, Stanford, George Tech, UoMich, UoVA, Purdue, UoIL and on and on cannot do math and science,

      which is really what Bill Gates et al are trying to say...

      that's very different from K12 debackle.

      These are still the most difficult schools and the best schools in the world

      These are the people who are being displaced.

      Also, just a few years ago it was standard practice to use intensives for S&E to come up on the latest technology, say Oracle DBA.

      It would be a 3 day intensive class, a person is writing code within 1 week and has mastered it in 1 month.

      Standard fare and so basically corporations are  offshore outsourcing training too.

      I mean spare me, someone with in depth skills like object oriented programming, how long would it take to come up to speed on ".NET"?  1 month tops including C# and the rest of it?

      Train some people  and also bear in mind you have a 60% fraud rate on credentials overseas.  You even have name fraud.

      by BobOak on Wed Nov 15, 2006 at 01:16:19 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Just ignore him (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        It is obvious that he's moving on up and he's taking the ladder with him.

      •  I.T. work is not math and science (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        mariachi mama

        That is what so many people fail to understand.  I'm not looking to hire someone who can do calculus, I really don't give a toss.  What I want is someone who can write Oracle Discoverer reports.  Currently, there are no college courses for that.  Nor Business Objects, SAP, C#, or any other useful skill for I.T.  You can get some of these at community colleges, but even then it is usually outdated versions.

        These are still the most difficult schools and the best schools in the world

        The fact that something is difficult does not make it worth doing.  Additionally, people graduating from Harvard, Yale, etc. should not be getting computer programming jobs.  They should be running the companies.

        Also, just a few years ago it was standard practice to use intensives for S&E to come up on the latest technology, say Oracle DBA.

        It would be a 3 day intensive class, a person is writing code within 1 week and has mastered it in 1 month.

        If so, then why don't people do this now?

        I mean spare me, someone with in depth skills like object oriented programming, how long would it take to come up to speed on ".NET"?  1 month tops including C# and the rest of it?

        That's only part of it though.  The people I've interviewed in India actually have experience.  For example, I have a resume in front of me for a certain technology that is hard to find people who have worked with in the U.S.  He has about five years experience working with it, has a masters degree from a good school, has worked for two major consulting firms and one large hardware company.  In addition, I asked him a few tricky technical questions that I came up with, and he answered them easily.

        Train some people  and also bear in mind you have a 60% fraud rate on credentials overseas.  You even have name fraud.

        This is true, and it's a major problem.  However, in my case my partner of the consulting firm is Indian, and he is very helpful on helping weed out the fraud.

        •  ah (0+ / 0-)

          I see you are one of those slave Masters busy making big money off of labor arbitrage.

          Case in point, nuf said.

          by BobOak on Wed Nov 15, 2006 at 02:11:17 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  What makes you say that? (0+ / 0-)

            Nowhere did I say that I rip people off or make big money.  In fact, I would not offer a job if the rate was not something that I would personally accept.  I'm not going to pay someone $30 an hour as a consultant, although I have known guys who got paid that little and I have great sympathy for them.  My cut is $10/hr, which is not bad considering I negotiate decent rates, such as the $120/hr contract that I am working on getting someone for right now if I can, and yet, I can find no Americans who are skilled and experienced enough for that job, so I probably will lose out on it.  Still, paying an H1B worker $110/hr is hardly peanuts or slave-driving.

        •  Whether math, science or information tech (0+ / 0-)

          let's look at the schools Bob's talking about

          MIT's Grad program:

          Over 1/3 are international, with China, Korea and India each making up 3-5% of the student body.

          Stanford's Grad program:

          Over 1/3 are international, with 1/6 coming from Asia.

          Think Harvard is different? Or Yale, or Berkeley or CalTech?

          •  That's different (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            from the H1B program, and you know it.

            There's a big difference between people from other countries, not limited to the ones you name, coming to the US to further their education (and in fact, that feeds some of the other comments: in their native countries they get practical training but they have to come here to get the theoretical training) and bringing in workers on H1B visas because the labor costs are cheaper.

            Apples and onions.

            •  The fallacy (0+ / 0-)

              of your argument is that bringing in H1B visas is solely predicated on cheaper salaries. From first and secondhand information I've gotten at Lattice, Intel, Tektronix, HP, Sun, Symantec, RadiSys, not to mention science/biosciences, they have been bringing in the best possible workers and they are finding them overseas. These knowledge workers are more fluent in current technologies, more adaptable and flexible in applications and willing to work past the 8-5 shift for mission-critical deadlines.

              The lower end support and programming is already being routed overseas. Hell, there are already hospitals farming out CT scans and imaging work to Asia just to get the productivity of a 24-hour work day. Blame fiber overcapacity, but you can digitize medical files tonight and have them interpreted, diagnosed and ready to roll before you come in the next morning. Being mediocre with an American birth certificate is no longer sufficient to get ahead. Your expectations for quality of life is not a given. It's time to get out there and innovate to stay ahead before we turn into the French.

              As for the schools, they're already beating us to the punch on education. It's simply deluded to believe they're going to travel for a Harvard education and not try to stay in the US and work for the best companies. And the IIT and Chinese Unis are closing in on us every year. You're going to be pretty bummed when we need to put in visas to try to find work in Mumbai or Guangzhou.

              •  I agree with some of your points (0+ / 0-)

                I mentioned in another thread that I do believe it is legitimate to use H1Bs to provide many different things that cannot be found in this country. I work in a medical residency program and we have sponsored H1B visas to fill spots because US med grads won't go into primary care. There are certainly people who get H1Bs because they have skills that aren't available here on a wide enough basis. But you must admit that there are people, employers, who hire these folks because they don't want to put in the effort to train American workers and because often the labor costs are less (if only in terms of certain benefits.) That I do not find legitimate.

                As for your comments about overseas radiology work, it is true it is happening. And what is not reported is that these reports are often unreliable. This isn't even just overseas; often you'll see a single radiologist taking call from one hospital in a region and reading films online. But I cannot tell you how many times these films have to be 're-read' the next morning for any of a multitude of reasons; the person who reinterpretst the films, however, is unlikely to get reimbursed for his or her time. This is hardly a model of efficiency, but when we're trying to reduce medical errors and do the best thing for the patient, it becomes essential.

                On schooling, we undoubtedly have a problem, and having one kid in private and one in public, I can tell you that it's universal. And part of it is the sense of entitlement that we as a society are instilling into our kids (and I certainly see this far more in the private school, in my experience.) I also see it in medicine, unfortunately: one of the reason American grads don't go into primary care is because of 'lifestyle' issues. They all want to go into emergency medicine, where they can do shift work. Sorry to those who don't want to judge American students and workers, but these are the simple facts on the ground.

                We need to find a way to instill a sense of work ethic and pride in a job well done in our kids, rather than encouraging this incredible, and incredibly destructive, sense of entitlement that we see growing every day. It's more than just schools, IMO; it's also parenting.

                But the other thing, that has been mentioned by many others, is the 'culture of idiocy' that we have in this country. When someone with as profound a lack of talent as Britney Spears, not to mention Fed-Ex, is the one getting all the press, we really have a serious problem. When my seven year old son gets grief from his peers at school because he is always walking around with a book, we have a problem. When we have Emperor C+ Augustus leading us into doom because he's someone 'you'd like to have a beer with,' we have a very serious problem. How we go about changing that I have no idea.

    •  Have you considered putting out a request on dKos (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      Perhaps you should place a want-ad in a diary.  Title it  "Help Wanted: Oracle DBA with Peoplesoft".  You will be flooded with applicants.  They may not all be 25 years old, though.


      •  Yeah, some may be younger (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        Even diploma mill graduates, like he is advocating for, are having trouble getting work. God forbid anyone ask for a middle-class wage. But why pay that, when you can get some cheap Indian IT-whore who'll work for peanuts because they don't know any better.

        •  That's not what I was advocating (0+ / 0-)

          The people I am looking to hire must have at least two years experience, and must be technically savvy enough to answer all the questions I ask correctly.  I'm looking for people to represent me and do work that I would do myself if I could.  Also, you will notice that I did not mention anything about paying people shitty rates.  That would be stupid to do, because not only would it cause them to not be loyal to me when they do get their permanent residency, but also it would lower my rates in the long run.  People who pay shitty rates are idiots because they not only cut the consulting rates in the short term, but they also cut the overall rates in the long run.  It's a lose-lose situation.

      •  Actually it's not that (0+ / 0-)

        I specifically do not mention what skills are needed because there are very few people that do what I do, and I do not want my dailykos username tracked back to my real identity.

        You do have a good idea though, and I would definitely like a dailykos job board of some sort.  I've tried to help people here get jobs before, and I'd gladly help in the future.  However, there are other resources that I have tried for people specifically in the line of work that I am in.  There is an email mailing list, and two websites devoted specifically to people that work with that software.  The people I interviewed from those sources didn't interview very well.

        In fact, if I had some U.S. citizens or at least permanent residents I could get them a job quickly, providing they are willing to travel and work for maybe as little as 3 to 6 months at a time (with possible extensions.)  As it stands now, I can apply for the H1B visas next April, and bring them here to work next September.  The U.S. ran out of H1B visas available months ago.

    •  Dumbass professors (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      I aspire to that remark.  

      •  Those who can't do, teach (0+ / 0-)

        I'm joking with the subject line of course.  I have friends who are professors or aspiring to become such.  Not all professors are bad, but the ones I've dealt with on I.T. are usually either fully academic with no work experience, or dinosaurs who used to be COBOL programmers who got laid off and got a teaching degree and went on from there.

    •  Disagree (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      I find the US system works quite well. India has taken the diploma mill approach, where you teach a very specific skillset instead of building upon a foundation of fundamental skills. Never mind that C is still the most widely used programming language with C++ coming in a close second. The India approach may be great for current applications, but it limits the ability of the person to adapt to changes in the future. You get what you pay for. Hire cheap IT workers at your own peril. Many companies are learning that the hard way. The quality of software and services from notorious H1B visa abusers is quite poor and it shows in their bottom line.

    •  I've heard this before (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      theboz, BobOak

      and I'm not jumping on you but there are options.

      For example, my spouse who is an architect graduated from a school that has a co-op program. They got real world experience in just what you are talking about: hands on issues, business issues, etc. Spouse (and others) have often said that they came out of this program better equipped than some, well, Ivy League graduates because of these real world skills. Also, architecture now requires internships before licensure, so again, further requiring real world skills.

      And in medicine, well, we have residency.

      Perhaps this is the kind of model that we need to use in the tech field too, and you could be a leader in someone who sponsors such students. It would also allow you to 1) get cheaper labor, frankly, and 2) help train people in the real world skills you and others seem to need.

      Saying our system doesn't work is only part of the issue; doing something active to change it is what's neeeded.

      •  I'm not rich (0+ / 0-)

        I don't want to sound like I'm some big businessman who can do all of this.  In reality, I'm just one guy who happened to luck out and learn a skill that turned out to be in a good market.  However, I don't have a huge bank account, I'm buying a house the end of this month which will drain all of my savings, plus my wife is pregnant and we're expecting a child which means that she can't work and I have to make all the money.

        I do like the idea of the co-op program, but things are too cut-throat in the I.T. world to do this now.  Currently the best path for graduates is to get a job working for a big consulting firm being sent all over the place for shit pay, stay there for two years, then leave and figure out how you want to make your money.

  •  McCain says we need them (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    Because no Americans want to get paid $50 an hour to pick lettuce.

  •  Here's what I think (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    stitchmd, BobOak

    I think we need to start CHARGING these companies that say they need to go out of the country for the labor pool. I think there should be a fee per immigrant that needs to be hired to pay for the costs of the INS employees needed to track and help the immigrant integrate into our society. Right now, there seems to be no incentive for companies to try and train the resources they have in country and there seems to be no penalty for them(now the rest of us taxpayers are another story)to go out of country and get people that will work for cheaper. Additionally, it allows them to take advantage of the immigrant, who often has to wait YEARS to be united with their families legally.

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