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Torture 101: CIA text on teaching "coercive interrogation"

Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 04:39:06 PM PDT

Welcome to today's class on the techniques of torture. We will use as our text the now-declassified CIA manual on interrogation, specifically, Chapter IX: Coercive Counterintelligence Interrogation of Resistant Sources.

This class is intended for the enlightenment and education of its readers, and of the American public in general. There has been a long and ongoing controversy over the use of torture by the Bush Administration and its agents (military, intelligence, and contract interrogators). The text used here was written in the early 1960s, and remains the primary product of a decades-long research project into the scientific basis of human mind and behavioral control conducted by the United States government. (Continued...)

(Please note that unless otherwise noted, all quotes are from our standard text, as cited in the introduction.)

The use of torture stands at the apex of a series of arguments into the power of the state and its executive. Soon, I believe we will be considering impeachment items against President Bush and other administration figures. The material in this class constitutes essential background reading for this pending struggle.

The CIA (codenamed Kubark in its interrogation manual) notes at the beginning of its discussion, and we might as well, too, that discussing the use of coercion is not the same as authorizing it. The CIA instructs all readers of its document that:

For both ethical and pragmatic reasons no interrogator may take upon himself the unilateral responsibility for using coercive methods.

In practice, the interrogator gets permission to use such methods from his or her superior up the chain of command. Often, this is the Director of Operations him or herself. The latter may seek permission from the appropriate directors of the executive branch (see recent articles implicating President Bush in such decisions).

The Theory of Coercion

The CIA has thought long and hard on the subject of coercion. It's scientific approach is both chilling and fascinating. It places this kind of research firmly in the mainstream of modern biological, psychological, and sociological inquiry.

Coercive procedures are designed not only to exploit the resistant source's internal conflicts and induce him to wrestle with himself but also to bring a superior outside force to bear upon the subject's resistance. Non-coercive methods are not likely to succeed if their selection and use is not predicated upon an accurate psychological assessment of the source.

In contrast, the same coercive method may succeed against persons who are very unlike each other. The changes of success rise steeply, nevertheless, if the coercive technique is matched to the source's personality.

The CIA spends a lot of time in its document on the question of personality differentiation, but we won't linger there. If there are questions after class, perhaps I can take it up then. Meanwhile, let's look into the heart of interrogatory darkness:

All coercive techniques are designed to induce regression. As Hinkle notes in "The Physiological State of the Interrogation Subject as it Affects Brain Function"(7), the result of external pressures of sufficient intensity is the loss of those defenses most recently acquired by civilized man: "... the capacity to carry out the highest creative activities, to meet new, challenging, and complex situations, to deal with trying interpersonal relations, and to cope with repeated frustrations. Relatively small degrees of homeostatic derangement, fatigue, pain, sleep loss, or anxiety may impair these functions." As a result, "most people who are exposed to coercive procedures will talk and usually reveal some information that they might not have revealed otherwise."

Please note, despite the more dramatic manifestations of torture, such as beatings, electric shock, and waterboarding, psychological torture works on a very precise mechanism of inducing regression, i.e., fucking with people's heads and nervous systems.

Problems of Coercive Interrogation

Now we turn to problems that arise in the practice of such interrogation.

Farber says that the response to coercion typically contains "... at least three important elements: debility, dependency, and dread." Prisoners "... have reduced viability, are helplessly dependent on their captors for the satisfaction of their many basic needs, and experience the emotional and motivational reactions of intense fear and anxiety.... Among the [American] POW's pressured by the Chinese Communists, the DDD syndrome in its full-blown form constituted a state of discomfort that was well-nigh intolerable." (11). If the debility-dependency-dread state is unduly prolonged, however, the arrestee may sink into a defensive apathy from which it is hard to arouse him.

Oh, think of the poor interrogator! He or she may have caused such discomfort to the interrogatee that the latter becomes intractably unavailable, through unconsciousness, depression, apathy, or mental (dissociative) shutdown. This leads to another situation that lies at the heart of the usual practical objection to torture, i.e., that it doesn't lead to results. This is known as the validity problem in torture-induced confession, or the they'll-say-anything-to-make-this-shit-stop syndrome. As usual, the CIA has thought the whole thing out (from their point of view):

Psychologists and others who write about physical or psychological duress frequently object that under sufficient pressure subjects usually yield but that their ability to recall and communicate information accurately is as impaired as the will to resist. This pragmatic objection has somewhat the same validity for a counterintelligence interrogation as for any other. But there is one significant difference. Confession is a necessary prelude to the CI interrogation of a hitherto unresponsive or concealing source.

And the use of coercive techniques will rarely or never confuse an interrogatee so completely that he does not know whether his own confession is true or false. He does not need full mastery of all his powers of resistance and discrimination to know whether he is a spy or not. Only subjects who have reached a point where they are under delusions are likely to make false confessions that they believe.

Remember this, class, for you will be tested. Interrogation is not about confession. Confession is only the prelude to the entire experience of the torture/interrogation process!

Once a true confession is obtained, the classic cautions apply. The pressures are lifted, at least enough so that the subject can provide counterintelligence information as accurately as possible. In fact, the relief granted the subject at this time fits neatly into the interrogation plan. He is told that the changed treatment is a reward for truthfulness and an evidence that friendly handling will continue as long as he cooperates.

The profound moral objection to applying duress past the point of irreversible psychological damage has been stated. Judging the validity of other ethical arguments about coercion exceeds the scope of this paper....

Novice interrogators may be tempted to seize upon the initial yielding triumphantly and to personalize the victory. Such a temptation must be rejected immediately. An interrogation is not a game played by two people, one to become the winner and the other the loser.

It is simply a method of obtaining correct and useful information. Therefore the interrogator should intensify the subject's desire to cease struggling by showing him how he can do so without seeming to abandon principle, self-protection, or other initial causes of resistance. If, instead of providing the right rationalization at the right time, the interrogator seizes gloatingly upon the subject's wavering, opposition will stiffen again.

Techniques of Coercion

The following are the principal coercive techniques of interrogation: arrest, detention, deprivation of sensory stimuli through solitary confinement or similar methods, threats and fear, debility, pain, heightened suggestibility and hypnosis, narcosis, and induced regression.

The CIA goes into some detail describing the best way to arrest someone, and the kinds of environment their detention should encompass. but I will have to refer you back to our main text for greater detail. Let's just keep to the bullet points.

  • Deprivation of Sensory Stimuli

The chief effect of arrest and detention, and particularly of solitary confinement, is to deprive the subject of many or most of the sights, sounds, tastes, smells, and tactile sensations to which he has grown accustomed....

"The symptoms most commonly produced by isolation are superstition, intense love of any other living thing, perceiving inanimate objects as alive, hallucinations, and delusions." (26)

The apparent reason for these effects is that a person cut off from external stimuli turns his awareness inward, upon himself, and then projects the contents of his own unconscious outwards, so that he endows his faceless environment with his own attributes, fears, and forgotten memories....

The deprivation of stimuli induces regression by depriving the subject's mind of contact with an outer world and thus forcing it in upon itself. At the same time, the calculated provision of stimuli during interrogation tends to make the regressed subject view the interrogator as a father-figure. The result, normally, is a strengthening of the subject's tendencies toward compliance.

CIA interrogator as "father figure". Kind of blows your mind, doesn't it? But imagine you had been kept alone "in a cell which has no light (or weak artificial light which never varies), which is sound-proofed, in which odors are eliminated, etc.", you might consider any bozo who came and talked to you after one to two months of that your greatest friend, mentor, or "father-figure".

  • Threats and Fear

The threat of coercion usually weakens or destroys resistance more effectively than coercion itself. The threat to inflict pain, for example, can trigger fears more damaging than the immediate sensation of pain. In fact, most people underestimate their capacity to withstand pain. The same principle holds for other fears: sustained long enough, a strong fear of anything vague or unknown induces regression, whereas the materialization of the fear, the infliction of some form of punishment, is likely to come as a relief....

Threats delivered coldly are more effective than those shouted in rage. It is especially important that a threat not be uttered in response to the interrogatee's own expressions of hostility. These, if ignored, can induce feelings of guilt, whereas retorts in kind relieve the subject's feelings.

I hope you are noticing a pattern here. There is the calculated derangement of environment and psychological adjustment, followed by a respite or relief, instigating, via regression, a tendency to talk and loosen moral, ethical, poltical inner controls. Threats of death, well...

The threat of death has often been found to be worse than useless. It "has the highest position in law as a defense, but in many interrogation situations it is a highly ineffective threat. Many prisoners, in fact, have refused to yield in the face of such threats who have subsequently been 'broken' by other procedures." (3)

The principal reason is that the ultimate threat is likely to induce sheer hopelessness if the interrogatee does not believe that it is a trick...

  • Debility

Once again, the threat of something, like physical debility (hunger, fatigue, etc.) is worse than the reality, from a psychological viewpoint.

For centuries interrogators have employed various methods of inducing physical weakness: prolonged constraint; prolonged exertion; extremes of heat, cold, or moisture; and deprivation or drastic reduction of food or sleep. Apparently the assumption is that lowering the source's physiological resistance will lower his psychological capacity for opposition....

Another objection to the deliberate inducing of debility is that prolonged exertion, loss of sleep, etc., themselves become patterns to which the subject adjusts through apathy. The interrogator should use his power over the resistant subject's physical environment to disrupt patterns of response, not to create them. Meals and sleep granted irregularly, in more than abundance or less than adequacy, the shifts occuring on no discernible time pattern, will normally disorient an interrogatee and sap his will to resist more effectively than a sustained deprivation leading to debility.

  • Pain

The infliction of intense pain is not to be desired. The torture victim often discerns this as an act of desperation by the interrogator, especially if it comes late in the interrogation. Also, the victim is liable to say anything to stop the pain, thereby weakening trust in what they reveal. But the CIA, combing psych literature, and the work of researchers paid by the Office of Naval Research and the Air Force, not to mention their own psychologists, discovered a fact about human nature that the new modern torture paradigm would incorporate:

It has been plausibly suggested that, whereas pain inflicted on a person from outside himself may actually focus or intensify his will to resist, his resistance is likelier to be sapped by pain which he seems to inflict upon himself. "In the simple torture situation the contest is one between the individual and his tormentor (.... and he can frequently endure).

When the individual is told to stand at attention for long periods, an intervening factor is introduced. The immediate source of pain is not the interrogator but the victim himself. The motivational strength of the individual is likely to exhaust itself in this internal encounter.... As long as the subject remains standing, he is attributing to his captor the power to do something worse to him, but there is actually no showdown of the ability of the interrogator to do so."

As always in class, we have gotten too ambitious for our own good. We are running out of time (or patience of the typical Internet blog reader). We will finish up with summaries of the other main types of coercion suggested by the CIA.

  • Heightened Suggestibility and Hypnosis

A huge subject all of its own, the CIA was very interested in the use of hypnosis, and likely still are.

Hypnosis offers one advantage not inherent in other interrogation techniques or aids: the post-hypnotic suggestion. Under favorable circumstances it should be possible to administer a silent drug to a resistant source, persuade him as the drug takes effect that he is slipping into a hypnotic trance, place him under actual hypnosis as consciousness is returning, shift his frame of reference so that his reasons for resistance become reasons for cooperating, interrogate him, and conclude the session by implanting the suggestion that when he emerges from trance he will not remember anything about what has happened.

This sketchy outline of possible uses of hypnosis in the interrogation of resistant sources has no higher goal than to remind operational personnel that the technique may provide the answer to a problem not otherwise soluble. To repeat: hypnosis is distinctly not a do-it-yourself project. Therefore the interrogator, base, or center that is considering its use must anticipate the timing sufficiently not only to secure the obligatory headquarters permission but also to allow for an expert's travel time and briefing.

  • Narcosis

Just as the threat of pain may more effectively induce compliance than its infliction, so an interrogatee's mistaken belief that he has been drugged may make him a more useful interrogation subject than he would be under narcosis. Louis A. Gottschalk cites a group of studies as indicating "that 30 to 50 per cent of individuals are placebo reactors, that is, respond with symptomatic relief to taking an inert substance." (7)

In the interrogation situation, moreover, the effectiveness of a placebo may be enhanced because of its ability to placate the conscience. The subject's primary source of resistance to confession or divulgence may be pride, patriotism, personal loyalty to superiors, or fear of retribution if he is returned to their hands. Under such circumstances his natural desire to escape from stress by complying with the interrogator's wishes may become decisive if he is provided an acceptable rationalization for compliance. "I was drugged" is one of the best excuses.

Drugs are no more the answer to the interrogator's prayer than the polygraph, hypnosis, or other aids.... Nevertheless, drugs can be effective in overcoming resistance not dissolved by other techniques. As has already been noted, the so-called silent drug (a pharmacologically potent substance given to a person unaware of its administration) can make possible the induction of hypnotic trance in a previously unwilling subject.

The CIA closes its discussion of the techniques above with an examination of malingering illness or mental disorder to escape the interrogation situation (to not be tortured!). Only a small quote will suffice here.

Most persons who feign a mental or physical illness do not know enough about it to deceive the well-informed. Malcolm L. Meltzer says, "The detection of malingering depends to a great extent on the simulator's failure to understand adequately the characteristics of the role he is feigning.... Often he presents symptoms which are exceedingly rare, existing mainly in the fancy of the layman. One such symptom is the delusion of misidentification, characterized by the... belief that he is some powerful or historic personage. This symptom is very unusual in true psychosis, but is used by a number of simulators.

In Conclusion

This has been a long and no doubt arduous class assignment. I will not ask for any paper, no multiple-choice test, no essay. I only ask that you read it -- I suggest printing it out, because it will be easier to read for most people that way. Spread the word, transmit the links. You have been priviliged to read about torture at a level that few people get to examine.

Extra Credit

Go and read the new Army Field Manual's Appendix M, on special interrogation techniques, and see how many you can trace back to the Kubark manual discussed here. It will be an enlightening revelation at how the U.S. government protects its torture work at the highest levels.

Tags: torture, CIA, KUBARK, interrogation, George W. Bush, impeachment, Rescued (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 26 comments

  •  Tip Jar (21+ / 0-)

    This is tough stuff to write, as I suppose it is to read. I do it as a civic duty. I hope you'll take it on in the same spirit!

    War is the statesman's game, the priest's delight, The lawyer's jest, the hired assassin's trade Invictus

    by Valtin on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 04:38:57 PM PDT

  •  I wonder if some people (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Valtin, teknofyl

    are more resistant to this.  Some people have the ability to go inside themselves-to retreat- to avoid the unbearable.

    "Though the Mills of the Gods grind slowly,Yet they grind exceeding small."

    by Owllwoman on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 04:52:12 PM PDT

    •  The CIA makes a big deal about the variability... (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      x, Kingsmeg, blueness

      ... of personality. There is surely a lot of difference in people in the ability to understand or cope with difficult things: pain, sadness, complexity, etc.

      I tend to look at the difficulty in getting my message out around torture in a larger sense, i.e., why the society as a whole cannot engage this subject.

      Lifton talks about "psychic numbing" as a arge scale social response to the unthinkable. His model was the U.S. population's response to Hiroshima.

      War is the statesman's game, the priest's delight, The lawyer's jest, the hired assassin's trade Invictus

      by Valtin on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 04:56:02 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Coercion (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Valtin, blueness

    It appears that all the techniques mentioned in the manual have simply been abandoned in the prison camp at Guantanamo.  Sadism is no way to induce cooperation.

    •  They are using Guantanamo as a laboratory (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      April Follies, x, blueness

      Using human subjects/detainees, just like the Nazi experimenters did. However, the core of their torture program remains tied to the CIA paradigm of sensory deprivation, inducement of fear, fatigue, sleep deprivation, and derangement of the senses (use of drugs, hypnosis, threat, etc.)

      See the excellent article by Douglas Valentine, What the World Should Know About Guantanamo:

      As an attorney for several detainees, Ratner, however, has heard first hand accounts of what goes on inside Guantanamo, and what he describes "is like Dante's ninth circle of hell."

      Sleep derivation is a favorite form of "stress and duress," the designated euphemism for torture at Guantanamo. Old-fashioned beatings are routine. Shackling people to the floor of an interrogation room for hours and making them lie in their excrement is an easy and effective way of telling someone, "You're not worth shit." (It also has the side of effect of making their tormentors hate them even more.)

      Making people kneel for hours has the dual effect of causing Muslims pain when it's time to pray. Then again, as we know from reading the newspapers and watching TV, defaming Islam is de rigueur in America nowadays.

      Making detainees stand for hours in the hot sun is another favorite technique....

      Sleep deprivation, forced positions, threats -- sounds like the basic CIA modus operandi to me, as elaborated in the diary above.

      War is the statesman's game, the priest's delight, The lawyer's jest, the hired assassin's trade Invictus

      by Valtin on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 05:12:23 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Thank you again Valtin (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Valtin, blueness

    The very fact that we have people sitting around a table discussing what is torture and what isn't and how to cloud the issues shows how far we have to go in becoming a humane society.

    Thanks again.

    (-9.00, -8.92) Those Who Hear Not the Music, Think the Dancers Mad

    by craigb on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 05:21:52 PM PDT

    •  I personally would like (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      blueness

      ... to see an end to the ridiculous emphasis put on the juridical difference between "torture" and "cruel, inhumane, and degrading treatment". The differentiation is used, as you suggest, to cloud the discussion and confuse our understanding.

      That is why it is so important to become educated in the subject, especially from a historical standpoint.

      Btw, the U.S. began making a big stink about defining torture in the 1980s, when the UN Convention Against Torture treaty came up for consideration. Suddenly, you couldn't have too many lawyers combing over the word "torture". Bybee's memos to A. Gonzalez are masterpieces of this kind of pettifogging obfuscation.

      War is the statesman's game, the priest's delight, The lawyer's jest, the hired assassin's trade Invictus

      by Valtin on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 05:31:56 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Thanks Valtin. (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Valtin

        Three wide-ranging thoughts come to mind.

        1. Is there any discussion about the ability of one who is aware of the methods and their intended purpose, to resist? This relates to the recent directive that detainees are forbidden to discuss the methods of their torture, even with their lawyers.
        1. With respect to the 'hands-off' self-infliction of pain via e.g. standing at attention: what is the threatened punishment for failing to comply? And how can the tormentor force the victim to self-inflict if the detainee is 'on to' this technique and refuses? Inflicting pain in the form of a beating would mean the detainee 'wins.' Would the self-infliction be posited as a 'lesser of pains' or alternative to e.g. sleep deprivation or lack of nutrition?
        1. How does all of this jive with the notion that even so, the information gained is worthless?
        1. "a strong fear of anything vague or unknown induces regression"  I have a theory that regression is the method by which Rush Limbaugh, et. al. manipulate those susceptible into adhering to the propagandists, as I described this morning in a comment:

        The neocon/Rush Limbaugh media have used psychology to innoculate their adherents from being able to tolerate hearing or heeding anything that contradicts their adopted bias. I call this the 'ick' factor. Anything that is perceived as 'not' congruent with the propaganda they've been spoonfed by RW media makes them feel icky with cognitive dissonance, and is rejected out of hand. They are addicted to the feel-good message they get from Rush and his clones who know how to feed into long-standing resentments and anger. The listeners are encouraged to feel justified, comfortable and self-righteous in their unresolved resentments, and to scape goat whoever Rush presents, in his sneering tone and demeaning adjectives. Old resentments from childhood are revived and displaced onto 'libruls.' It's an addiction: they feel angry and bitter at all of the things that are wrong in their lives. Listening to Rush's vituperations makes them feel better, like a narcotic. Trying to disabuse them of their addiction to this cycle with facts doesn't work. They need a whole new system for relating to the world, and understanding their inherent emotional dynamic.

        This is a totally new revelation for me, and I'll bet, as a professional psychologist, you may be able to go further with this. Maybe you and others dedicated to healing our nation can figure out a way of exposing this dynamic in a way that enables those who have been gulled by the propaganda to safely, comfortably, shamelessly come to their senses.

        •  judasdisney's comment reminded me of (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Valtin

          one more thing.

          majikthise reports the treatment of the striking janitors by the Houston PD. Based on my reading of FOIA docs from an Army investigation into an incident at a forward operating base in Iraq, the treatment of the janitors is indistinguishable from that of the Iraqi detainees.

          •  Phoenix Woman alerts to TPM discussion (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Halcyon

            on SERE. The acronym stands for Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape, and is a U.S. military program training special ops on how to resist interrogation and torture (and, it seems, how to conduct it, too). Jane Mayer at the New Yorker had a very important piece on it, too, back in July 2005:

            Critics also allege that the sere program has become a testing ground for interrogation techniques involving sexual embarrassment and humiliation. (Detainees at Guantánamo have complained of such methods, and the scandal at Abu Ghraib last year revealed that guards there photographed prisoners naked and in sexually humiliating poses.) A former military-intelligence officer who was familiar with practices at Guantánamo told me that a friend who had gone through Level C sere training, which lasts three weeks, said that he had been sexually ridiculed by females during the program. “They strip you naked and make you do work while women laugh at the size of your ‘junk,’ ” the intelligence officer told me. “Apparently, it’s very humiliating.” The sere affiliate described another disturbing training technique: the “mock rape.” In this exercise, a female officer stands behind a screen and screams as if she were being violated. A trainee is told that he can stop the rape if he coöperates with his captors.

            When U.S. torture has exceeded the outlines of the old CIA model I've described, I think you can trace its etiology back to the SERE program. In the future, I will look at who ran that program, and how and why they deviated from SOP for torture, to experiment with new, ever-more barbaric forms of torture. My guess is, a certain wing of the CIA and Pentagon were not happy with how this is or was conducted. They want to go back to the sensory deprivation paradigm. -- In any case, it's all barbaric.

            War is the statesman's game, the priest's delight, The lawyer's jest, the hired assassin's trade Invictus

            by Valtin on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 07:50:21 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Re your comments (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Halcyon
          1. Yes. A major theme is how to resist interrogation. So the Bush Administration is not coming from nowhere in their insistence methods should be kept secret... if you are a torturer wanting to safeguard your methods. The ability to resist and how effective one can be is a difficult, complex question to answer.
          1. I don't know the answer to this. I remember reading that those who fail are physically punished, but I don't know if that's the norm.
          1. Well, they seem to think that about 1/3 of the info is not worthless. And even re the "worthless" info, it is still data that they feed in and analyze. Then again, there is the more political, unspoken angle: assertion of power through terror.
          1. You are correct that large-scale induction of fear causes a kind of societal wide regression (what Lifton called, in one instance, psychic numbing).

          Thanks for your thoughtful comments and questions.

          War is the statesman's game, the priest's delight, The lawyer's jest, the hired assassin's trade Invictus

          by Valtin on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 07:13:28 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Yes, yes (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Valtin

        and as nimbly as the names of Perl, Cheney  and Wolfowitz come tumbling off of the tongue, all of America should know and curse for history the name of John Woo, the Architect of Torture.

        The little fuck is a Berkeley professor of law of all things and turned into the tool of Cheney, Bush and Gonzalez in torture!

        It's a shame that only in my home town, Berkeley, does the cry of "Fuck Woo" resonate.

        (-9.00, -8.92) Those Who Hear Not the Music, Think the Dancers Mad

        by craigb on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 06:04:33 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I'd like to personally use KUBARK (0+ / 0-)

    and see how long Richard Cheney can live without sleep, using forced-awake techniques.

    Future survivors of Earth likely won't believe that America really existed.  But maybe a handful of scholars will wonder how any society ever thought it could get away with this shit before it turned on its own populace.

  •  Important discussion and text. (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Valtin

    Thanks for bringing this up and summarizing it for those of us with little time.

    I have no doubt that this torture technology and the setting aside of ethical concerns about anything short of irreversible damage have been applied, studied, and refined many times since the manual was written in the early '60s. Argentina, Uruguay, Brazil, Chile, among many others - all were laboratories for this sort of thing. It appears that rocket science isn't the only thing our intelligence services learned from Nazi scientists they adopted after WWII - not that we couldn't have come up with it on our own.

    Not only does torture degrade us all, it gives people reasonable grounds for suspecting modernity's emphasis on science and technology. It makes science and technology appear morally empty and suspect and gives people rational grounds for reaction against and rejection of science, e.g., the theory of evolution, stem cell research, etc.

    Interesting to note that the CIA understood, way back then, that the threat of death "is a highly ineffective threat." So much for the death penalty as a deterrent.

    "A president who breaks the law is a threat to the very structure of our government....President Bush has repeatedly violated the law for six years." Al Gore

    by psnyder on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 05:52:54 PM PDT

  •  Have you seen the TPM discussion of torture? (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Valtin

    A good place to start is here.

    Then read the posts immediately following.

    John McCain will end Roe v. Wade if he's president.

    by Phoenix Woman on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 06:33:31 PM PDT

  •  If I was a Genius in (0+ / 0-)

    the Military / Industrial / Intelligence Triad
    I would develope a superior communications platform for internal use and then slowly deploy it into the private sector. In time it could be filled with all sorts of things people are interested in -  everything from porno to politics, religion to finance, sports scores to chatrooms.

    Monitor it, analyse it, but most of all control it and you've got one powerful tool.
    The greatest torture? Assaulting what one holds dear. So much easier going into the torture chamber no???

    Me? I wouldn't last long on the rack once they threatened Bob Johnson's dog.

  •  Been in shock since they started "discussion" of (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Valtin, kurt

    Torture on tv.  My first and still reaction is TORTURE IS TERRORISM. I usually listen to both sides of anything and make informed, rational, reasonable decisions. There is no question of: if it saves lives, if it is only a little torture. NO NO NO. I'd rather die than have that done in my name. Don't train my sailor to torture. Or my neighbors. Or their children. I'm still shocked and disgusted that any American even CONSIDERS using it.

    De fund + de bunk = de EXIT--->>>>>

    by Neon Mama on Tue Nov 21, 2006 at 02:05:51 AM PDT

  •  I was a subject of (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Valtin, kurt

    the CIA development of their drug program at Edgewood Arsenal in the 70's.  http://mindcontrolforums.com/...

    •  Thank you for the important link (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      kurt

      I will find this of much use. Of course, I am very sorry as I assume you must have, or still do, suffer greatly. Have you written of your experiences anywhere?

      War is the statesman's game, the priest's delight, The lawyer's jest, the hired assassin's trade Invictus

      by Valtin on Tue Nov 21, 2006 at 06:22:33 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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