Daily Kos

FL-13: What's on tap for Jan. 4th.

Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 02:40:46 PM PDT

Word is that House Democrats will, on January 4th, permit Republican Vern Buchanan (FL-13) to be seated and sworn in, despite the ongoing dispute over his election.

Although the House could, by majority vote, opt to seat Jennings instead, the decision appears to be that they'll let the judicial appeals run their course, and refer Jennings' formal complaint to the House Administration committee for review.

In the meantime, Rep. Rush Holt (D-NJ) has announced his intention to put the House on record as reserving the right to unseat Buchanan at some point in the future, should it decide to dispute his credentials and his right to the seat. How will he do it? Well, Holt plans to pose a parliamentary inquiry before Members are sworn in on Thursday.

That gives us an opportunity to do two things here: 1) explain how Holt's move will work, and; 2) explain what Holt's move actually is.

We'll take them in reverse order.

What's a parliamentary inquiry?

Here's the simplest definition, from C-SPAN's Congressional Glossary, a resource we'll be going to a lot this year, as we learn parliamentary procedure alongside our new Democratic majority:

A PARLIAMENTARY INQUIRY is posed by a member on the floor to the chair asking for procedural clarification.

OK, not all that helpful by itself. Let's try the Senate glossary:

parliamentary inquiry - A question from the floor to the Presiding Officer by a Senator requesting a clarification of the procedural situation on the floor. Responses to parliamentary inquiries are not rulings of the Presiding Officer, but may lead the Senator posing the inquiry or another to raise a point of order.

Better. More context. And since the term is in use in both the House and the Senate, the definition applies.

Now, question one, from above: Why will Holt be doing? Essentially, he'll be asking the chair something like, "Is my understanding correct that the House's decision to administer the oath of office to the gentleman from Florida [Buchanan] will not be taken to prejudice either the judicial proceedings now underway in that state's courts, or the challenge pending before the House Administration committee, filed by the gentleman's general election opponent [Jennings]?"

To which the chair, presumably Nancy Pelosi herself, will answer -- essentially -- "Yep."

Problem solved.

Now, why a parliamentary inquiry as opposed to some other method of reserving the House's right to unseat Buchanan later, should circumstances warrant?

Well, the chief alternative available to the House would be a resolution saying exactly that -- that the House agrees to seat and swear in Buchanan without prejudice to the pending cases or investigations. That's what the House did in the case of Democrat (actually, "Independent Democrat" -- take note, Lieberman fans!) Dale Alford in the 86th Congress, on Jan. 7, 1959.

Resolved, That the Speaker is hereby authorized and directed to administer the oath of office to the gentleman from Arkansas, Mr. Dale Alford.

Resolved, That the question of the final right of Dale Alford to a seat in the 86th Congress be referred to the Committee on House Administration, when elected, and said committee shall have the power to send for persons and papers and examine witnesses on oath in relation to the subject matter of this resolution.

But a resolution, though much clearer, would be subject to a vote. And a vote like that -- which would undoubtedly break down along partisan lines and be seen as a raw exercise in power -- is something to be avoided, or at least minimized to the extent possible, on the first day of the session. Make no mistake, the first votes of the new Congress are always partisan votes aimed at the raw exercise of power. But they're routine ones. Electing the Speaker, adopting the new Rules, etc. Adding one as unusual, unexpected, and sharply divisive as this one would be merely brings additional rancor to an already tense situation. No need to fan the flames.

So Holt will opt for going on record with a parliamentary inquiry, instead. Why? Because Pelosi's answer is not subject to appeal. In previous discussions on this subject, I had mistakenly thought that the chair's response might be subject to appeal, but that like any appeal from a proper ruling of the chair, the appeal would be subject to a "motion to table."

A MOTION TO TABLE, if adopted, permanently kills the pending matter. It also ends any further debate.

So, that was wrong. There are no appeals from answers to parliamentary inquiries, which is exactly why Holt will go that route. Other rulings of the chair (such as those on points of order, as mentioned in the Senate glossary definition) are, however, subject to the motion to table, so my mistake offers us a chance to throw in another useful definition of an important parliamentary term: the motion to table. That's another one to look for in the future, as Republicans seek to throw wrenches in the works of the 110th Congress.

So that's it. Lesson one in parliamentary procedure. Something we'll be looking to continue (hopefully with help from our friends on the Hill) as the session progresses.

A toast, then, to the New Year, and the new Congress. If you've sat through this story on New Year's Eve, you deserve a drink.

Race tracker wiki: FL-13

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Tags: FL-13, Vern Buchanan, Christine Jennings, Rush Holt, parliamentary procedure, parliamentary inquiry, motion to table, election integrity (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 202 comments

  •  Thanks for the clarification (11+ / 0-)

    Good stuff.

    To everyone else at dKos - have a great New Year's. I'm gonna be checkin' out for 2006 in a few minutes.

  •  Permanently kills a pending matter? (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Sanuk, ca democrat, cadejo4

    Well that's different from what I remember, in my organization they usually go under old business on the next agenda and can be moved off the table by majority vote.

  •  Enjoyed This (14+ / 0-)

    I'll enjoy learning a bit more about parliamentary procedure, with you, KagroX and the 110th Congress. Should be fun.

    "The collapse of confidence in the Republican leadership is not enough to elect Democratic leadership." -Dean

    by MarionCountyDemocrat on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 02:47:55 PM PDT

  •  Thanks for the lesson! (4+ / 0-)

    Loved your close. It IS New Year's Eve after all. Gotta be a little wonky to get fired up over internal civics lessons on the last day of the year. I agree, I do deserve a drink.

  •  Thanks for posting this (22+ / 0-)

    I hope the Kos community can educate itself on Congressional procedure because that knowledge is critical to understanding what the Dems in Congress can and can't do.

    So much of politics is based on playing of peoples' ignorance of the legislative process. This is an important step towards immunizing ourselves from that.

    "Be radical, be radical, be not too damned radical." - Whitman [-4.50, -5.79]

    by DemHillStaffer on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 02:48:45 PM PDT

  •  Tonite, I'll be toasting (5+ / 0-)

    Christine Jennings and Rush Holt!

    Keith Olbermann: If you truly revere Eward R. Murrow, it's time to change your sign off from "Good Night and Good Luck" to Fired Up and Ready to Go!"

    by sgary on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 02:52:17 PM PDT

  •  I'm not sure I get it... (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    willers, Sanuk, ca democrat, gatordem

    Is this all just to reserve the right to kick Buchanan out later?

    -5.38 -4.95 - "If my doctor told me I had only six minutes to live, I wouldn't brood. I'd type a little faster." - Isaac Asimov

    by b1oody8romance7 on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 02:52:45 PM PDT

    •  Basically, yes, although that's not the only idea. (19+ / 0-)

      "Reserving the right to kick Buchanan out later" is a very important part of it.  If they let him in without reservation and tried to "kick him out" later, there'd be an argument that it would require a 2/3 vote like any other expulsion.  This way, it's made clear that the House is reserving the right to resolve the election contest later, by majority vote, as it would resolve any election context.

      Also, this maneuver would avoid prejudicing the Florida court proceedings.  If the House seated Buchanan without any reservation, the Florida courts would most likely be precluded from continuing to hear Jennings's lawsuit, because the House is the ultimate judge of the elections of its members under the Constitution.

      •  Exellent explanation. Thanks. (4+ / 0-)

        There have been tyrants and murderers, and, for a time, they seem invincible, but in the end, they always fail. Gandhi

        by lilyvaldem on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 03:15:02 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Yes, thank you (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          willers, Sanuk

          Your explanation makes this move a little more palatable to me.  I think the seat should remain vacant and a special election held, or at least no one seated until the dispute is resolved.  I am also concerned about setting a precedent that a sworn-in member can be removed by a majority vote, not a 2/3 majority.  However, your explanation that they basically seating Buchanan on a provisional basis helps me accept this.

          Should the House later decide to remove Buchanan, except the Repubs and Fox, Limbo, et al to go full throttle on the 2/3 vote to expel requirement.  The Dems must be prepared with easy-to-understand explanations.  I'm not sure that explaining "parliamentary inquiries" will work.  Remember, in-your-face is much easier to understand than nuance.

          "It's hip to be miserable when you're young and intellectual."--Carly Simon

          by Buckeye Terry on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 04:14:55 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  How does this work at crunch time? (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Sanuk
        That is, when the committee returns a recommendation that the seat be declared vacant?

        Buchanan has been sworn in, and it would take a supermajority to expel him. In this case, does the House determine after the fact that he was not really seated after all? That's he's "on the bubble", unlike his peers? And does the minority really have no opportunity to contest this the first day? (Not that they would, since that would presumably lead to the seat being held open.)

        Does any part of this depend on a gentlemen's agreement with the minority?

        The Great Obama might saw the lady in half, but he won't make the elephant disappear. The Confluence

        by RonK Seattle on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 04:08:07 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  On the bubble. Yeah. (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Sanuk

          Pretty much.

          The minority could doubtless try to find some opportunity to contest it on the first day, and it may very well be that they can find a loophole through which to try to force a vote. But they'd either lose the vote or, more likely, it'd all just get tabled. Don't you think?

          Waste more of your day at The Next Hurrah.

          by Kagro X on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 04:12:39 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Who is in the chair at the time of the (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Sanuk

            parliamentary inquiry?  IIRC, when the House first meets, there is no Speaker because there are no Members.  (The term of every member of the previous House expired.)  The Clerk of the outgoing House, a Republican, calls the Members-Elect to order and then swears them in.  The newly sworn-in Members then elect their officers.

            Can this inquiry be done after Buchanan has been sworn in, and do all reservations to a Member's qualifications have to be done before he is sworn in.  If it is the latter, the Repub. Clerk will make the ruling.  If it is the former, then Pelosi will make the ruling.

            Even more stuff to make your head explode just in time for the New Year.

            "It's hip to be miserable when you're young and intellectual."--Carly Simon

            by Buckeye Terry on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 04:23:08 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Depends on the timing. (4+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              bronte17, Sanuk, Randall Sherman, gatordem

              I think the order is that the Clerk takes the chair and calls the roll, and that the first order of business is the election of the Speaker. Then the Speaker takes the chair, is sworn in (by the Dean of the House) and proceeds to business, which would include the swearing in of the rest of the Membership.

              So the parliamentary inquiry will likely come after the election of the Speaker, but before the swearing in of the rest of the Members.

              Waste more of your day at The Next Hurrah.

              by Kagro X on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 04:25:41 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  As you'd expect, it's a little more complicated (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                Sanuk
                The Clerk declares that Certificates of Election have been presented, then calls the roll (of Representatives-Elect) to establish a quorum.

                Here's an example where Ed Case came to town without a certificate:
                "It would appear from the unofficial results that Ed Case (D) was elected Representative from the Second Congressional District of Hawaii. We are unaware of any election contest at this time."
                http://thomas.loc.gov/...

                Then nominations are taken for Speaker, then the Speaker is elected and sworn, then the Speaker swears in the Members.

                The Great Obama might saw the lady in half, but he won't make the elephant disappear. The Confluence

                by RonK Seattle on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 05:34:18 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Buchanan would present a valid (but contested)... (0+ / 0-)

                ... certificate in the first part, where the Clerk would (I presume) take notice of the contest. Holt would raise his Inquiry in the last part, just prior to the members' swearings-in.

                Is that about it? It's gettin' late around here.

                The Great Obama might saw the lady in half, but he won't make the elephant disappear. The Confluence

                by RonK Seattle on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 06:36:35 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

    •  Basically, yeah. (9+ / 0-)

      But I guess part of the lesson here is that even the simple stuff requires maneuvering. That's part of what we have to learn as we watch the Democratic Congress work.

      We as a community always have questions like, "Why don't they just throw Lieberman out of the Caucus?" Parsing the rules (both formal and informal) will help us understand why what happens, happens.

      Waste more of your day at The Next Hurrah.

      by Kagro X on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 03:00:59 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Now, the Key Question (7+ / 0-)

    What can we expect the Committee on House Administration to actually do here, and what do we know about Rep. Juanita Millender-McDonald, the incoming chairwoman?  Is she likely to run a strong investigation of her own, will it perhaps be managed by someone else on her behalf, or might she become resentful if outsiders try to suggest to her what she ought to do?  Anyone have a sense of this?

    Can you smell the Constitution burning?

    by The Maven on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 02:55:10 PM PDT

    •  I have no idea. (7+ / 0-)

      But it certainly opens up a lot of possibilities, even if none of them directly result in seating Jennings over Buchanan.

      For instance, she could investigate the possibility of federal requirements mirroring North Carolina's electronic voting laws, which insist that the source code be essentially held in escrow by the state, and that the manufacturers certify (under penalty of perjury) that the code in use on election day is the same as that in escrow.

      The House will not be in a position to demand a new election be held. It can suggest that it will declare the seat vacant (or even seat Jennings) unless it suggestion that a new election be held is met, but it can't actually make Florida officials do it.

      So short of that, the House Administration committee could use the opportunity this mess affords them to look into how such problems, including the secrecy of the source code for these machines, could be addressed in the future.

      Waste more of your day at The Next Hurrah.

      by Kagro X on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 03:17:45 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  that is what I am hoping for - (4+ / 0-)

        the House Administration committee could use the opportunity this mess affords them to look into how such problems, including the secrecy of the source code for these machines, could be addressed in the future.

        I am pretty sure that that is the thinking of pelosi & holt as well.

        finally we have some Dems who are not trying to run away from this problem; finally we have some Dems who are not implicitly telling us, "you can't handle the truth."

      •  If I understand this correctly, (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Sanuk, Randall Sherman

        the Dems are asking for a parliamentary ruling that the qualifications of Buchanan are still in question and can be decided at a later date.  This certainly implies that the House can later decided that Buchanan is not qualified (not the true winner of the election) and remove him.  If he is removed, the House can decided to seat Jennings or leave the seat vacant.

        If the seat is vacant, would not Florida election law now kick in.  I would assume, but knowing Florida's history with elections, that's risky, FL law would require that a special election be held to fill any Congressional vacancy.  

        If the Repubs in FL and elsewhere want to "stand on prinicple" that Buchanan really won by refusing to call a special election, let them.  I doubt if the voters of that district will take kindly to being unrepresented for the next 2 years.

        "It's hip to be miserable when you're young and intellectual."--Carly Simon

        by Buckeye Terry on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 04:31:59 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Not a ruling, really. (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Sanuk, DavidGP

          The answer to a parliamentary inquiry isn't a ruling. But otherwise, yeah.

          If Florida officials decided to "stand on principle," it'd be a contest of who could get the better of the PR game. Democrats, for standing up for election transparency? Or Republicans, by accusing Democrats of holding a Republican Congressman hostage for "partisan advantage?"

          Waste more of your day at The Next Hurrah.

          by Kagro X on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 04:45:56 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  I like the net result (0+ / 0-)

        Which is that the Florida 13th district does get represented in Congress, but Buchanan could have to give up the seat to Jennings depending on how the chips fall.  That may be politically expedient, but more important, I think it's the fairest approach to the situation.  If Buchanan ultimately secures the seat, even by winning a 'second time around' election, he'll have senority from the beginning of the 110th Congress.  

        We're all pretty strange one way or another; some of us just hide it better. "Normal" is a dryer setting.

        by david78209 on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 10:29:03 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  re: Rep. Juanita Millender-McDonald - (4+ / 0-)

      I read that she was a big Dem investigator of the 2004 Ohio election theft.

      so, she has been around the block here.

      •  Any idea where you read that? (0+ / 0-)

        Her website says:

        In her role as Ranking Member of the Committee on House Administration, Congresswoman Millender-McDonald has investigated widespread voting irregularities and voter disenfranchisement and called for a hearing in Ohio, the first election reform field hearing in Congressional history.

        It's a good sign that she considers that work important enough to tout, but I haven't been able to find out anything out about it from independent sources.

        She's not a cosponsor of Rush Holt's H.R.550 bill demanding paper ballots of record. I don't know why. I'm about to ask her that (as well as her position on Jennings' challenge) in a letter to be passed on by one of her constituents (since her website says that she only answers e-mail from constituents). That constituent told me, however, that in general she's played a pretty cautious role in politics considering the safety of her seat. Still, she is a member of the Congressional Black Caucus, who were the only ones who seemed to give a damn about election integrity in 2000.

        Conclusion: our chances are probably decent.

        •  not a cosponsor - (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          AlanF, The Maven

          She's not a cosponsor of Rush Holt's H.R.550 bill demanding paper ballots of record

          in general she's played a pretty cautious role in politics considering the safety of her seat

          I understand, and I know, it is very frustrating.

          this was the same situation for my liberal CT Dem rep John Larson as well, ie, he was a real foot-dragger re this issue and re Rush Holt's bill.

          I am guessing that a lot of essentially good caring liberal Dem reps are honestly ignorant and confused about the whole concept of software in general and are thus hesitant & reluctant to act on this issue.

          also, these dems do not want to look like tin foil hat conspiracy theory types.

          PS: your citation above is the only citation that I ever saw re Millender-McDonald.

          it is a good starting point that she has an awareness about Ohio, but Ohio was not an electronic voting fraud/theft issue.

          the education job that we have here is enormous.

          that is why we need a full congressional investigation of FL-13 jennings vs. buchanan, to finally move the issue of black-box e-voting from the relm of academia & the web over into the halls of congress.

          these dem congresspersons can easily get their heads around the classic old-world-style boss-tweedish voter fraud/theft which occurred in Ohio 2004, but the new world style of software-based e-voting e-theft is a big mysterious black box for our software-ignorant liberal dem congresspersons, ie, it is all greek to them, and incredibly, they have naively & irresponsibly left the driving to the corporations, which are usually repub-friendly corporations.

          let's hope that they all are finally starting to get it and that they are supportive of a rigorous congressional investigation of FL-13 jennings vs. buchanan.

          ==> our best national kossack action at this point now may be for us to all contact our respective congresspersons (even the repub ones) and ask them to support a rigorous congressional investigation of FL-13 jennings vs. buchanan.

          BTW, I no longer think that the Rush Holt-recommended paper receipts by themselves are sufficient either. a complex Windows-based diebold-type black box e-voting machine can be easily hack-programmed to record one thing and say quite another thing on the screen and on the paper receipts.

          I think that the entire concept of the private-corporation-controlled proprietary complex Windows-based diebold-type black box e-voting system has to go.

          optical scan systems are much better because first of all, they are much simpler software-wise (ie, they do not have an entire Windows operating system inside them, whereas a diebold black box machine does) and are thus more stable and less hack-prone.

          most importantly, an optical scan system's original voter ballot is a paper ballot which a voter marks with a pencil, which is the original record of voter intent, which also then becomes the govt-saved recountable paper record as well.

          we here in CT and Mass are wisely bringing in new optical scan systems, but I am very concerned about the diebold black box e-voting machines that were slipped into & forced into CA in the dead of night by the schwarzennegger gang over the objections of a panel of experts.

          note to markos: markos, CA is YOUR state; so, where are you on this one??

          •  Responses to your points (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            The Maven

            I am guessing that a lot of essentially good caring liberal Dem reps are honestly ignorant and confused about the whole concept of software in general and are thus hesitant & reluctant to act on this issue.

            Probably true. May be true for their aides as well, but there may be a better chance for getting through to them as well.

            There are people who oppose H.R.550 because it doesn't go far enough, and they think its passage will prevent subsequent tighter legislation. One example of these opponents is Nancy Tobi, who is discussed in the diary by cos (not Kos -- someone else) that can be found on the H.R.550 page.

            However, I doubt that many reps are in the it-doesn't-go-far-enough category.

            it is a good starting point that she has an awareness about Ohio, but Ohio was not an electronic voting fraud/theft issue.

            Electronic voting issues were overshadowed by vote suppression in Ohio in 2004, just as they were in Florida in 2000, but they played an important role there, too. For instance, Triad voting machines were used, and sworn testimony by at least one voting official shows that representatives of the company helped jerry-rig the partial recount to avoid a full recount. The testimony is mentioned on page 81 of  the Conyers Report and elsewhere.

            our best national kossack action at this point now may be for us to all contact our respective congresspersons (even the repub ones) and ask them to support a rigorous congressional investigation of FL-13 jennings vs. buchanan.

            Good idea. If contacting the Republicans, we need to make them understand that they can be threatened by unsafe voting, too. There are Republican cosponsors of H.R.550, and there are also Republicans active in election integrity organizations.

            BTW, I no longer think that the Rush Holt-recommended paper receipts by themselves are sufficient either. a complex Windows-based diebold-type black box e-voting machine can be easily hack-programmed to record one thing and say quite another thing on the screen and on the paper receipts.

            They're not really Holt-recommended, they're Holt-mandated (if H.R.550 passes). And if they're really voter-verified, as H.R.550 stipulates, then they should be sufficient. The question is whether the workflow pushes voters to verify those paper ballots.

            I live in MA. Where have you heard about new optical scan machines coming into MA and CT?

            •  Couple of Extra Points (1+ / 0-)

              Rep. Holt has made it clear that the reintroduced version of H.R. 550 will include supplemental provisions regarding paper ballots -- he went on record at BradBlog several weeks ago regarding this.

              And in Ohio, the newly elected Secretary of State, Jennifer Brunner, had indicated in a diary here that she is "prepared to make tough decisions" if she is not satisfed by the electronic voting machine companies.  In response to a comment, Ms. Brunner certainly appeared to endorse the idea of suing the manufacturers to at least recover the costs relating to replacement of the unusable (and defective) machines.

              So it would definitely seem as though newly empowered and newly elected Democrats on both the federal and state level will be taking steps to at least minimize (and hopefully one day eliminate entirely) the problems inherent with electronic voting devices.

              Can you smell the Constitution burning?

              by The Maven on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 10:11:11 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  MA and CT? (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              AlanF

              Where have you heard about new optical scan machines coming into MA and CT?

              re optical scan machines in MA: I read it here recently, said by a MA poster here.

              re optical scan machines in CT: I am personally 100% sure about that.

              May be true for their aides as well, but there may be a better chance for getting through to them as well.

              back in 2003 I tried to make (plead) the case to experienced aides of Chris Dodd, who is my own CT senator. I talked with Dodd's aides, and they were totally clueless. I recited to them all the standard 2003 e-voting black box talking points, and they then said stuff to me like, "oh, that is already all taken care of."

              the effing morons.

              and this was Chris Dodd's experienced aides (not mere interns), and this was Chris Dodd's office, which should have been well plugged into all this, Dodd being the "Mr. Voting" guy in 2002.

              again, that was all back in 2003.

              really amazing & scary stuff.

              The question is whether the workflow pushes voters to verify those paper ballots.

              note: I am making an important distinction here between a voter's paper ballot and a voter's paper receipt.

              with optical scan systems, the orginal ballot that the voter originally interacts with is paper, and that original paper ballot then automatically becomes the paper trail as well, which is much much better than touch screen machines which just print out a paper receipt but do not involve a paper ballot at all.

              FYI, the optical scan trials that we had here in CT this election went well.

              They're not really Holt-recommended, they're Holt-mandated

              we need a law that makes the current unverifiable paperless diebold black box voting machines in CA illegal.

              to be even bare-bones adequate, the rush holt bill MUST do that day 1.

  •  Seems like Holt and Pelosi... (11+ / 0-)

    ...are playing this very wisely.  Good for them.

    However -- it's outrageous that this case hasn't been settled more quickly in Florida.  Seems it's been treated so goddamned casually.  How convenient, eh?

    Happy New Year to Kossacks everywhere!

    Hillary Clinton: champion of the downtrodden White Race!

    by chumley on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 02:56:12 PM PDT

    •  US House -vs- Florida (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      chumley, Sanuk, ca democrat

      Is it possible for the US Congress (or the US President) to involve itself more directly in arbitration of Florida's election? My guess is it's not, but any lawyers/ gov scholars think otherwise?

      •  Yes, Congress can (4+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        AlanF, chumley, Sanuk, DavidGP

        Each house is the judge of its own elections and Congress makes the law governing Federal (House of Representatives, Senate and President) offices.  For instance, HAVA outlawed punch card voting for federal elections.  Congress could also pass a law requiring a paper trail for all voting machines, or require that polling places for a federal election be open 24 hours.

        Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that technically, Congress can only pass laws regarding the election of Federal officials, but not state officials.  But, since it would be a logistical nightmare to conduct an election under 2 sets of rules, not to mention outrageously expensive, the states follow federal election law.

        "It's hip to be miserable when you're young and intellectual."--Carly Simon

        by Buckeye Terry on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 05:09:47 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  That is why... (5+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          AlanF, chumley, Buckeye Terry, Sanuk, DavidGP

          ...when the Supreme Court ruled in 1971 that Congress had the right to lower the voting age to 18 for federal elections, but not for state or local elections (thus overturning part of a law eneacted that year, while preserving another part of the measure), the 26th Amendment to the US Constitution (which lowered the voting age for all elections to 18) was approved by Congress and quickly ratified by the states (it took just a few months to get the amendment approved).  If the amendment hadn't been ratified, you would have had dual registration systems in all but two states (Georgia and Kentucky, where the voting age was already 18).

          •  -==Kick the doors down!==- (0+ / 0-)

            What I was most wanting to hear was if congress could swoop down and intervene in this week, or something like that. Of course that makes little sense, since congress lacks an enforcement branch.

            OK, this is my sick fantasy: Jack-booted congress thugs invade Florida, confiscate machines, arrest voting officials, haul everything back to Washington for interrogation and disassembly. Then they raid Die-Bold for the same purpose. Don't stop until they find out what made machines mysteriously misbehave in that one county!

            •  If there was a functioning JUSTICE DEPT. (0+ / 0-)

              ..something like that might happen. I suppose we'll have to wait till there is a Dem sitting president.

              •  exactly - (0+ / 0-)

                sorta like what JFK/RFK did, when they sent the justice dept and then the national guard into those southern areas where blacks' voting rights were being systematically denied.

                what we have today with e-voting fraud is an old familiar story with a new high-tech face.

                back in 2000, the federal justice dept. SHOULD have arrested katherine harris for her infamous racist voter purge lists, but by then, of course, the justice dept. was in the very hands of the criminals themselves.

                what despicable shame the right-wing has brought upon america.

                the fight never stops.

            •  Of course Congress can do something immediately (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              chumley

              It can refuse to seat Buchanan and declare the seat vacant.

              It can decide that Jennings is the real winner and seat her.

              It can pass any type of law regarding federal elections, subject to the President's signature.

              As for Diebold, the machines used in FL-13 were ES&S.  

              It is also to Jennings's advantage that there was paper trail. If the 18,000 undervote was because of poor design and the voters didn't see the race, which seems to be the consensus, there were no votes to be recorded on a paper trail.  If the problem was poor calibration of touchscreen, again, the vote wouldn't have register on the paper trail, either.  So, if the machines did have a paper trail, Buchanan and the Repubs would say, "see, these voters didn't vote on that race, here's the evidence, now shut the fuck up".

              BTW, paper ballots are not immune to poor ballot design.  The optical scan ballot we used for absentee balloting was four pages long, spanning 2 legal sized double-sided sheets of paper.  If you want to hide a race, simply put it at the end of of page 4.  A large number of voters never turn the page over, so they only vote on page 1 and page 3.

              "It's hip to be miserable when you're young and intellectual."--Carly Simon

              by Buckeye Terry on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 10:46:21 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I don't think that.... (0+ / 0-)

                jennings/buchanan had a paper trail -

                It can refuse to seat Buchanan and declare the seat vacant.

                It can decide that Jennings is the real winner and seat her.

                not right now, not during the very first week of the dems retaking congress. that is too brute-force-like, too DeLay-like. such can & will come, but rome was not a built in a day. to do such this week would be like pelosi offering an impeachment resolution this very week. not prudent.

                If you want to hide a race, simply put it at the end of of page 4.  A large number of voters never turn the page over, so they only vote on page 1 and page 3.

                that would be a local Dem party oversight and voter education responsibility, as it has classically always been.

                also, there should be firm & comprehensive state (or maybe federal) laws in place regulating the placement of candidates & races on ballots. we have such here in CT.

                for example, joementum had a paid flunky at every CT poll voting location who just stood there outside wearing a sandwich board showing where lieberman's name was on the ballot, so that the voters could find lieberman's last-line 3rd party ballot line, where solid & unambiguous CT law dictated that he be placed.

                if e-voting machine programmer geek types can arbitarily place races and candidates on the ballot wherever the he** they damn well choose, then that is a totally out-of-control situation.

                Question: was there any Florida law in-place that regulated how & where an ESS programmer could place races and candidates on the FL-13 ESS voting machine screen?

                this is another excellent item for the Dem congress to investigate and resolve.

                what total craziness, just like the out-of-control lawless western frontier towns in the heyday of the cowboys.

                •  I agree that the Dems aren't going to (0+ / 0-)

                  use brute force on the first day.  My post was in response to a previous post that asked what Congress could do immediately.

                  As for ballot location and design, I don't know what, if any, regulations Florida has.  In Ohio, there are regulations on the how the ballot is laid-out.

                  In an non-Presidential year, the Governor's race is first, followed by the other state executive offices (Attorney General, Sec. of State, Auditor, Treasurer), then State Senate and State Rep, then Federal officials, Senate and US Rep. This is followed by county races, commissioner, sheriff, auditor.  These are the partisan races.  Then we have the state, non-partisan races for State Supreme Court, then State Court of Appeals, then any county judicial races.  Next are the issues, with the state issues first, followed by county-wide issues, then multi-community issues (school districts, library districts.), and finally the local issues.

                  As for candidate listing, we have ballot rotation.  Every candidate must appear at the top of the ballot an equal number of time.  For instance, in 2006, there were 4 candidates for Governor.  In Precinct 1A, for example, the candidate order would be A, B, C, D.  In Precinct 1b, the order would be B, C, D, A.
                  The theory is that a certain % of voters will just vote for the first name they see, so each candidate should should have an equal opportunity to be on top.

                  I never really believed that, but we examined several absentee ballots after the election.  It did appear that a certain number of people would vote for the first name on the ballot, regardless of party.  This is especially true on down-ballot races.

                  "It's hip to be miserable when you're young and intellectual."--Carly Simon

                  by Buckeye Terry on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 07:45:09 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  interesting - (0+ / 0-)

                    It did appear that a certain number of people would vote for the first name on the ballot

                    favorable ballot position did NOT prove to be relevant with lieberman here in CT at all -

                    the CT repub senate candidate (alan schlesinger) had top line-1 ballot positioning, and that did not amount to squat for him, as schlesinger got just 10% of all senate votes cast, and he was a major party (repub) candidate to boot.

                    we never before had a repub senate candidate ever get such a low result. usually the CT senate repub candidate can get at least 30% of the total vote.

                    all those CT repub votes went for lieberman instead. it was like we had two repubs on the ballot, schlesinger and lieberman, but the repubs went lopsided for lieberman, and lieberman was on line 7 of the ballot (lamont was on line 2.)

                    we had hoped that schlesinger's top line-1 repub ballot postioning would deny lieberman many repub votes, but that did not happen at all, and schlesinger was positioned right next to our extremely popular moderate incumbent repub governor jodi rell, who got 64% of the vote.

                    again, to recap, that is the incumbent CT repub governor jodi rell with 64%, and the CT repub senate candidate alan schlesinger with just 10%, and they were both on the top line 1 of the ballot, and they were positioned side-by-side next to each other

                    that is one he** of a ticket split, so this whole thing about preferential ballot positioning and knee-jerk sheepish voting based on preferential ballot position may be way way overrated.

                    voters by-and-large are not lazy, sloppy, & sheepish.

                    if a voter makes the effort to voluntarily show up to vote, then he/she is also typically gonna then make the effort to do a thorough job of voting.

                    put another way, I see no scientific basis for concluding that 18,000 FL-13 Sarasota voters were just a bunch of lazy dumb asses who messed up.

                    •  I agree that most voters are not lazy sheep (0+ / 0-)

                      Ballot positioning is probably more important in low-pro-file, down-ballot races.  Especially if the race is non-partisan.  Many voters feel obligated to vote on every race, so they vote for the first name they see or for a familiar-sounding name.  There is a reason Cuyahoga County (Cleveland) has lots of judges named Gallagher, Brown and Russo.  (Judges in Ohio are nominated in party primaries, but run without party affiliation in the general.)

                      In a similar vein, I have gone with a Repub counterpart to assist nursing home residents complete their absentee ballot.  Usually, one of us would read the names of the candidates and the other fill out the ballot.  There were a number of voters who would select the last name they heard

                      But, again, these were mainly for low-profile, down ballot races.  In hi-profile races such as President, Senator, Governor, I would think very few voters would vote for the first name they saw or the last name they saw.

                      I also agree that 18,000 voters in only one county didn't decide not to vote in a hotly-contested and high-profile race.  That just defies logic.

                      "It's hip to be miserable when you're young and intellectual."--Carly Simon

                      by Buckeye Terry on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 01:07:52 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  well... (1+ / 0-)

                      Recommended by:
                      ca democrat

                      Buckeye Terry said pretty much what I would say about ballot order. It's a real issue, but one wouldn't expect it in CT-Senate.

                      As for FL-13, well, I don't think that all those voters were "just a bunch of lazy dumb asses" -- that makes no particular sense. A sudden wave of laziness specific to a particular county and voting method?! If you mean that you're confident that the excess undervotes weren't caused by voters' overlooking the race, well, that's another story. We don't have much empirical evidence to go on, at least I don't.

                      For what it's worth, I consider myself pretty tech-savvy, but my personal failure rate with Home Depot's "automatic" checkout is 67%. Apparently it is obvious to the designers that there is One Right Flow of my shopping items, and presumably I could eventually figure out what it is. But twice now, I've stared confusedly at the various parts of the thing, and eventually put something in an area where it doesn't yet belong, and the friendly automated voice has gotten a bit querulous, and then a clerk has come along to tell me what to do next. Soooo... I can't honestly put an upper bound on the extent to which voters may have been just plain confused by the ballot design. The question is amenable to empirical research, but if anyone has done the research, I haven't seen the results. Apparently Ted Selker at least made a start.

                      Personally, I don't think the outcome in FL-13 should hinge on whether the machines "malfunctioned" or just confused the hell out of voters. I regret that my view is not universally held.

          •  I had forgotten about that (0+ / 0-)

            I was about 14 when the states adopted the 26th Amendment.  I was just starting to get interested in politics.  Of course the states ratified it so quickly because they didn't want to run an election under 2 sets of rules.  

            In most states, it probably would have required a state Constitutional amendment to lower the voting age.  That can be a lengthy process and subject to a vote of the people.  The 1972 elections were only a year away.  Adopt the Amendment and be done with it.  

            "It's hip to be miserable when you're young and intellectual."--Carly Simon

            by Buckeye Terry on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 10:53:49 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  oops, ignore my previous. Kagro answered it. (0+ / 0-)

  •  zzzz zzzz zzzz zzzz zzzzzzzzzzz (0+ / 0-)

    You lost me at Congressional Glossary. Think I'll go and stupify meself and awaken in 2007. HAPPY NEW YEAR!

  •  Nice to see (4+ / 0-)

    that Congress can go meta too...

    It's this behind the scenes stuff that makes the average American's eyes glaze over...but probably some of the most important.

    "Old soldiers never die -- they get young soldiers killed." -- Bill Maher

    by Cali Scribe on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 03:04:41 PM PDT

  •  well I did, read it through (11+ / 0-)

    and really appreciate the time and effort you put in to state the procedure so clearly. This is why I personally value Daily Kos members because this to me is what democracy and civil rights and responsibilities is all about - understanding procedure and how the system works and more importantly still, why.  I raise my glass to you and nominate you as most valued member. I'll save my own toast for later, it's still light out in my neck of the woods, and my new year's resolution is not to have a drink until the sun has set over my particular yardarm. Again, thanks so much for your thoughtfulness.

  •  House Democrats (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    willers, Sanuk, ca democrat

    will permit.....Republican.....

    Sweet words!

    Impeachment off the table? So are my checkbook and my vote.

    by chautauqua on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 03:09:07 PM PDT

  •  Thanks for keeping an eye out for us down here (13+ / 0-)

    Just to reiterate what we've previously stated, we will appeal the ruling preventing an independent panel from investigating the source code for the ES&S iVotronic machines.  We have no intentions of allowing thousands of Sarasota County's voters to have their rights stripped from them.

    In this new year, we resolve to find out just what happened in Sarasota, and we resolve to do whatever it takes to make sure the will of the people is carried out.

    Happy New Year from all of us in Sarasota!

    -JR Lentini
    Blogosphere Outreach Coordinator

  •  Glad you're on the front page making sense (4+ / 0-)

    of this for all us parliamentary procedure-challenged.  I have a feeling it's going to be a busy year for you.

    "Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." Mark Twain

    by mentaldebris on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 03:33:21 PM PDT

  •  Well, it's been done before (4+ / 0-)

    In 1924, Smith Brookhart (R-IA) achieved a statistical tie with Daniel Steck (D-IA) for the Senate.  Initially Brookhart was seated, but was unseated in 1926, when an inquiry found that Steck had, in fact, won the 1924 election.

    All your vote are belong to us.

    by Harkov311 on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 03:34:37 PM PDT

  •  Which rules are you using? (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    SecondComing, ca democrat

    House rules are special.

  •  hope the dems don't shine this one on (6+ / 0-)

    because it's not just one race. It's the best chance to tackle the larger issue of election integrity. I've got fingers crossed.

    Who controls the past, controls the future. Who controls the present, controls the past. George Orwell

    by moon in the house of moe on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 03:41:25 PM PDT

  •  Parliamentary Procedure is the law (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    ca democrat, cadejo4

    of deliberative debate.

    And debate decides votes.

    I would really like to see the cameras in the house and Senate and Supreme Court be more professionally handled.

    Then we'd have more grist for the DKos mill...which grinds extremely fine.

  •  The Machines (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Sanuk, madgranny

    If the D's don't FIX the electronic voting problem fast it's going to come back to haunt them. These devices are time bombs that will if left to tick eventually destroy what's left of our decaying Republic.

    "It's better to die on your feet then live on your knees" E. Zapata

    by Blutodog on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 03:59:11 PM PDT

  •  wow! that is quite a diary! (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    feebog, DavidGP

    when the repubs see this diary, they will totally freak out that we "leftist jihadist bloggers" are unlocking all the secret "mystery religion" parlimentary procedures that the congressional repubs have been using to clobber us with for years!

    I trust nancy pelosi and rush holt to steer this issue in the best way that fully protects our rights to fight this all the way, without making the new Dem congress out to be new bosses who look like the old bosses.

    yes, please keep up this sort of diarying, because it will scare the he** outta the repubs, who do monitor us here!

  •  there should be more diaries like this (5+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Radiowalla, mosolino, jimreyn, Sanuk, madgranny