Daily Kos

Know Your Creationists: Ancestral Magnitudes

Sun Feb 12, 2006 at 06:27:50 AM PDT

T
he most famous force in creationism started out as a creationist himself, but he did not remain so for long. He was born in the year 1809 in Shrewsbury, England. For a time he may have professed some variant of Old Testament literalism. At one point he even considered becoming a parson. But as a young man, his love of science soon over took him like a raging fever, and his course was set to become a naturalist. At various times he studied geology, zoology, medicine, and biology. At the age of 22, still unfulfilled and restless with youth, he took advantage of a chance offer to sail the exotic south Pacific seas on a ship called the H.M.S. Beagle. From that vantage he recorded many amazing species. Upon his return five years later, he carefully, methodically, compiled mountains of data from his trip and through further investigation while marshaling his thoughts. Over the next two decades, he began to write down his findings and ideas. On November 24, 1859, he formally published those thoughts in a book that would shake the scientific establishment, along with all of western culture, to the core: The Origin of Species. The book sold out within in minutes of hitting the shelves.

Rather than post on the details of Charles Darwin's life and work, I thought it worth trying to conjure up that sense of wonder, in whatever modest way I can, that he stirred in so many; myself included. While this entry may have my name on it above, it isn't solely my work by any means. It's a partial excerpt which required many man-hours--created by half a dozen volunteers specifically for the readers of Daily Kos--from the upcoming Kosmos Kronicles, posted here in recognition of Darwin Day and his birthday, February 12, today. We'd like to think Mr. Darwin might have taken some small enjoyment from reading it. We hope you do as well.

  • ::
Ancestral Magnitudes


    Written by Stephen DarkSyde and Aron-Ra



My grandfather wasn't no monkey! You think we came from slime? Well, goo to you! Man, if you want to believe your great to the 100th-grandpa was a rock, be my guest . . . but it's STUPID!

Objections like these are all too familiar to those of us who defend evolutionary biology from the constant onslaught of religious opportunists who prey on their theistic victims for personal or political gain. As for a great-to-the-100th-grandfather being a rock, I assume this objection refers to a grandfather of 100 generations ago. And yes, frankly, that would be pretty stupid. Clearly, such claimants don't have an adequate grasp of the actual concept of evolutionary ancestry, nor of the significant time factors involved. I think you need a whole lot more zeros in there.

Let's do a little math. Using a minimal generational length of twenty years per generation, one hundred generations of grandfathers would equate to twenty centuries, or 2,000 years. That would make that ancestor a contemporary of rabba Yeshua bar Yossef--not quite an adequate evolutionary timescale, and certainly far from the mark when talking about the origin of life on earth. Only one hundred years ago, sixteen years per generation was more the norm as a minimal length, as it was with my grandparents and many of their ancestors. That would have put grandpa-one-hundred-generations-ago in the time of another wildly-exaggerated hero, King Arthur, in about the 5th century of the Common Era (CE).

We're going to need to go back further than that, a great deal further. Increasing the multiple by another factor of ten, an ancestor one thousand generations removed would have had even shorter generation gaps, about fourteen or fifteen years, on average. He would have been a Paleolithic nomad in about 13,000 BCE, just shortly before the foundation of the most ancient cities like Jericho and Damascus. He may have hunted mammoth, been a fisherman, or lived off Arctic seal. But no matter where he was or how he survived, he would have been 100 percent Homo sapiens.

   
    Enlarge GREATLY High Resolution Warning!
Mammoth Hunter, by Carl Buell, depicts a hunter around 14,000 years ago keeping tabs on a small herd of Woolly Mammoth in Berengia, the land bridge connecting Siberia to Alaska. Molecular analysis of genetic material indicates that all modern humans today descend from a tiny population that lived almost 200,000 years ago near modern day Ethiopia. You and I and everyone we know, be they light skinned or dark, regardless if they call themselves Eskimo or Aborigine, are in the end, 100 percent African and we are all family

Now, an antecedent from 10,000 generations ago would have been everyone else's great-to-the-nth-grandparent, too--everyone alive today, that is. He would still have been definitely human, and visibly different from his Neandertal neighbors. Whether he would be considered Homo sapiens or classified as a late model H. antessesor or H. heidelbergensis doesn't really matter. If you cleaned him up, dressed him in modern clothing and put him on a subway in New York, no one would notice anything different about him. Even our ancestors from that far back were still no more ape-like than any of the people in existence today.



Our grandpa or grandma from 100,000 generations ago (about 1.3 million years), on the other hand, was distinguishable from modern humans. He or she might now be called Homo ergaster or H. erectus, illustrated by artist Carl Buell on the left.

And H. erectus' remote ancestors from a million years earlier might be called Homo habilis or rudolfensis. Any or all of them would have appeared to be a bit more ape-like than the most monkey-faced modern guy, but they still would have been definitely human, especially when compared to the other fully bipedal apes that were wandering around two-and-a-half million years ago. If you were to put your ergasterine or habiline forebear on a crowded pew in your church, he would have looked like the classic ape-man. But if you saw him amongst his natural neighbors, the Australopithecines, you would see him as nothing less than a human being. The minimal length of a generation was shorter then--something like twelve or thirteen years on average.


One million grandmas back is quite a leap. A lot can happen in 900,000 generations and the world was much different ten million years ago. There were no definite humans yet, but there were proto-hominids--even though none of them could walk on two legs for very long. There were creatures similar to modern gorillas, chimpanzees and orangutans, but they were different from the ones we have today. One of the orangs, for example, stood as much as eight feet tall. This grandmother may have loosely resembled the modern bonobo shown to the right, courtesy of the Wikipedia. And the time span between generations would have been only eight to ten years, and much less as we go earlier.

At six or seven years between generations, your great to the 10,000,000th-grandma would have been barely recognizable as a primate, looking almost as much like a squirrel. She might have witnessed the demise of the dinosaurs, or he would have grown up in the harsh wasteland that was the wake of the K-T Impact for so many years.


Circa 60 million years ago; Plesiadapis on the right, one of the earliest known primates. Plesi still had claws instead of the more modern primate nails and her eyes had yet to face fully forward. Illustrations by Carl Buell

Left: A Triassic Cynodont called a Thrinaxodon. This critter lived about 220 million years ago and laid eggs, but shared many features with mammals.

Your grandmother of one hundred million generations back was a shrew-like mammal darting through the Jurassic underbrush 170 million years ago. The amniotic sacs her children were born in didn't have quite the same integrity that her own remote grandmother's birth-sacs had. Although leathery and easily torn, they would still have been considered egg shells, much like those from which some snakes hatch today. This grandma would have been mammalian, but not yet placental.

Now the generation gap really begins to close. For most of the Mesozoic era, and a long time before that, the age difference between father and son would be only about a year.

Your ancestor of a billion generations ago would have lived underwater--along with everything else, including trilobites and some really alien beasties--a few hundred million years ago and at least a couple hundred million years before the first dinosaur. The generation gap is now a monthly rather than yearly division. But for most of the last half-billion years of our genealogy, that wasn't the case. In half a billion years, your ancestors went from toothy, swimming worms like pikaia to conodonts, and on to lobe-finned crossopterygian fish, tetrapoidal amphibians, synapsid reptiles, amniotic proto-mammalian cynodonts, and finally the familiar placental mammals.


Primitive quasi-vertebrates such as the Conodont on the right, swam in strange primeval seas almost half a billion years ago. Conodonts are a strong candidate for the ancestor of all subsequent vertebrates including fish, amphibians, reptiles, birds, and mammals. Illustration by Carl Buell
 Image hosting by Photobucket
Left: Tiny colonial animals which may have resembled a miniature version of this siphonophore to the left, probably first evolved around 700 million years ago. The individual polyps comprising these simple colonies may have evolved as much as one billion years in the past. Photograph courtesy of the Wikipedia (Chondrophore)



The world of your ancient grandmother ten billion generations in the past wasn't much different, although there were a lot fewer trilobites then. And she wasn't a swimming worm yet. She would have been a roundworm, if considered a worm at all. She may have looked more like a tiny jellyfish with a sense of direction. Before that, she may have been something even simpler, like a microbial sponge, but still definitely a metazoic animal. And from this point back, there are no more he's and she's; all your ancestors would have been mothers, all their offspring daughters.

Your grandma of one hundred billion generations ago would have been, at best, a microscopic colony of differentiated cells similar to the plaocozoa, the simplest animals known today. And just a few hundred million years before that, she may not have been an animal at all, but a protozoan; a sort of bacterial and viral co-op living inside a single membrane, all of which have their own individual ancestries.


The eukaryotic cell is a collection of bacterial and viral like elements that work as a single entity. The individual organelles, such as mitochondria, probably descend from even simpler, free living microbes, such as the proteobacteria bacteria on the right. Eukaryotic cells have existed for at least 2 billion years, bacteria for well over 3 billion. Illustrations courtesy Wikipedia

Your grandma of one trillion generations ago would have been all those various bacterial and viral components before they learned to cooperate in a single eukaryotic cell. And your grandmother of ten trillion generations in the past would have been bacteria, too. Your direct ancestor 100 trillion generations removed may have been an even simpler chemosynthetic protein, barely alive in the formal sense, on an inhospitable waterworld unrecognizable as Earth.

           
            Enlarge GREATLY High Resolution Warning!
"Lunar Dawn", by graphic artist Karen Wehrstein, was chosen for the cover of the Kosmos Kronicles. Here, Karen depicts the earth, shortly after it cooled enough for liquid water to precipitate out of toxic, reddish-yellow clouds to form the first oceans, over 4 billion years ago. From a mere 70,000 miles away, the softly glowing moon shines brightly from sunlight reflected off of a lunar atmosphere formed by outgassing as it rises quickly from the eastern horizon courtesy of a rapidly rotating earth. In the steaming primeval ocean, shown here flanked by mostly idle volcanic mountain chains and solidified pyroclastic flows, the first self-replicating organic molecules are already active: Life has arisen

The oldest sedimentary rocks we've been able to locate date from this time period, about four billion years ago, and show chemical signatures suggesting that simple replicators had already developed. Even earlier, under ideal conditions, generations could come every few minutes in the form of chemical hypercycles. Your ancestors, for lack of a better word, would have been a series of macromolecular reactions, in which the end result of a given chemical process is the constituents to fuel the next leg of the cycle, which ultimately circles back around to any one reaction. This is the earliest we can go back in terms of proto-biology, even in speculation. We are now at just over four billion years in the past, just a hundred million years or so after the earth cooled enough for liquid water to form the first oceans.

Those substances in turn came from the smaller planetoids and dust grains that formed
the Earth itself starting five billion years ago. Although the concepts of ancestors and generations no longer have meaning, our ancestral molecules can be found in volatile ices and hydrocarbon tars making up cometary bodies in the solar nebula before the earth congealed. Five to six billion years ago, much of the material that now comprises your body--the minerals, for example--would have been present in the solar nebula as just rocks.

           
Five to six billion years ago: Our proto sun at the center of the solar nebula from which the earth and other planets would eventually form. Illustration courtesy  NASA

The material that condensed into a disk to form our solar system, including the earth, was a combination of interstellar hydrogen and heavier elements such as silicon, iron, nitrogen and oxygen. These heavier elements were cooked up inside a large star and released in a supernova, or blown off in the formation of a beautiful planetary nebula with a dense, white dwarf in the center. You are made of stardust like this:

           
             Enlarge GLORIOUSLY High Resolution Warning!
The Super Nova Remnant known as the Crab Nebula. All the atoms in our bodies heavier than hydrogen were cooked inside a star and released by a variety of mechanisms. The iron in our blood was cooked and released in a super nova. Photograph courtesy of the Hubble Space Telescope and NASA

The primordial elements, hydrogen and helium, which made up the first massive stars themselves, were produced shortly after the Big Bang. The helium came from an interesting process called Big Bang nucleosynthesis.

           
Let There Be Light: The Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe (WMAP) captures an image of the first light to bathe our infant universe over 13 billion years ago shortly after Creation. The individual specks represent the precursors to the first galaxies. Courtesy of NASA

That's quite a heritage to be proud of! And, while we know little about the trillions of individual organisms which make up the long ancestral lineage leading to each of us today, one thing we can say with certainty: they were, each and every one, survivors. It's an extraordinary story, spanning billions of years and stretching across all of space and time, back to the initial Big Bang. It's hard for humans to really get a handle on that kind of deep time, and that's understandable. We have a tendency to form opinions about what is possible and what is not based on intuition derived from everyday experience, and on emotional acumen. It makes sense to do so when confronted with the day-to-day problems and decisions we all must make. But is this methodology always useful?

Everyday experience will not help us when it comes to continental drift, traveling close to the speed of light or ice sheets marching and retreating across the landscape. We ephemeral creatures place such events not in the class of rare or time-consuming or unusual, but of never. And that's just one example of how our common sense can fail us when dealing with the most uncommon of phenomena.

Most folks who object to evolutionary biology or cosmology are doing so, not based on knowledge or reasonable inference, but on emotion. The emotional objections likely revolve around two concerns: 1) the idea of being just an animal or coming from slime and rocks. and 2) worry that science undercuts religious faith. On the latter: yes, science can undercut some tenets of faith. If the idea of a flat earth or a Sun god is a part of that faith then one either ignores the science and lives in ignorance with respect to that bit of it, or one adjusts one's theology. Those really are the only two intellectually honest choices.

The first objection is more common--many people don't like the idea of being the product of random physics and biochemistry. They feel there is no room for a Creator or their religion in such a scenario. I've always found this puzzling, as it seems to contain a hidden premise that the natural world science reveals must be in conflict with all religious faith.

And yet, even as a skeptic, I cannot imagine greater natural evidence for the brilliance of any Creator than the myriad complex processes unfolding over billions of years, through countless steps, in exquisite order, spanning the entire cosmos. The technical skill and artistic vision of such is to be admired in awe and, in that context, evolution, chemistry, astronomy and physics should be worthy of devotion, or at least respect--certainly not disdain.

Just a monkey? Just slime? Just a rock? . . . So many people speak of these things with latent fear; fear usually disguised as contempt. But a Creator is not limited to our prejudicial desires about how creation must unfold. If I were religious, I would teach my fellows to feel honored at being descended from a long line of God's wondrous creations and for sharing the amazingly complex biochemical processes those ancestral benefactors endowed us with. If I were a Sunday School teacher, I'd tell my young students that through the wisdom and creative genius of the Lord we can include cheetahs and peregrine falcons in our extended family; I think they'd eat that up! And they'd grow up secure in their faith, never having to fear that science would undermine it. Indeed, if anything, the grandeur of the natural world would only serve to strengthen their belief.

And I'd praise our evolutionary lineage and be grateful for our Linnaean ancestors, from the primates to the microbes and, yes, all they way back to the comets and the rocks and the dust. For through them God bequeathed unto us the finest natural possessions we will ever own: our body and our intellect.

*******************************

C
harles Darwin died on April 19, 1882, surrounded by family and friends in his home in Kent, England. Despite the heated debate and mixed feelings Darwin's work created in both the scientific and religious orthodoxy of the day, friend and foe alike insisted he be honored with a hero's funeral. He was laid to rest with all the pomp and circumstance of a full scale British affair of State. In death, Charles Darwin's mortal remains are in the best of company: His final resting spot is in Westminster Abbey, a scant few feet away from the graves of Sir Isaac Newton and Sir John Herschel. The inscription on his marker gives only his full name, date of birth, and date of death. A bronze memorial, with a life-sized relief bust, was erected by his family near the grave in 1888. The inscription just says simply "DARWIN".

Tags: science (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 63 comments

  •  The (4.00 / 18)

    artwork featured above by Carl Buell and the cover piece by Karen Wehrstein are protected by copyright or intent for same. However, in this one case, both artists are members of the Daily Kos and have graciously agreed to release that specific material into the public domain. You may freely use them and distribute them, provided proper attribution is made to the artist and the Kosmos Kronicles. The illustrations from NASA and the Wikipedia are not covered under this informal arrangement.

    Happy Darwin Day!

    Read UTI, your free thought forum

    by DarkSyde on Sun Feb 12, 2006 at 06:28:08 AM PDT

  •  BioTheology (4.00 / 2)

    It's ironic that on the anniversary of Darwin's birthday, the LA Times has an article on Ken Ham, and his traveling road show promoting the Creation Museum.

    Excerpt:

    "Evangelist Ken Ham smiled at the 2,300 elementary students packed into pews, their faces rapt. With dinosaur puppets and silly cartoons, he was training them to reject much of geology, paleontology and evolutionary biology as a sinister tangle of lies.

    "Boys and girls," Ham said. If a teacher so much as mentions evolution, or the Big Bang, or an era when dinosaurs ruled the Earth, "you put your hand up and you say, 'Excuse me, were you there?' Can you remember that?"

    The children roared their assent.

    "Sometimes people will answer, 'No, but you weren't there either,' " Ham told them. "Then you say, 'No, I wasn't, but I know someone who was, and I have his book about the history of the world.' " He waved his Bible in the air.

    "Who's the only one who's always been there?" Ham asked.

    "God!" the boys and girls shouted.

    "Who's the only one who knows everything?"

    "God!"

    "So who should you always trust, God or the scientists?"

    The children answered with a thundering: "God!"
    (End Excerpt)

    To begin with, Ham's use of puppets and other props to simply degrade the theory of evolution, as well as his smart ass taunting of biology teachers, renders his argument frivolous. Turning scientific theory into a cartoon universe, may be instructive as a teaching aid, but not when one fails to back it up with scientific evidence. Instead, Ham resorts to offering a mythological belief system in place of reasoned discourse, ultimately demonstrating just how groundless his position is. Trivializing a theory such as evolution, which has a vast amount of evidence supporting it, is just absurd.

    http://medianeedle.blogspot.com/...

    •  This stuff is really Scary (none / 0)

      Has anyone ever ask these kids where we would be today if it weren't for Science. Religion has always been the enemy or Science. It reveals the true natue of God and exposes the false Prophets for what they really are. Facts and Scientific reasoning are the ultimate threat to their power. I am saddened they are now in a battle to deprive these kids of a true understanding of our nature and universe.

      Disabled Viet Vet ret. My snark is worse than my bite

      by eddieb061345 on Sun Feb 12, 2006 at 07:24:17 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Here's another myth that needs to be shattered (none / 0)

        God did not write the bible, men with agendas did! That means the Bible IS NOT THE WORD OF GOD, it is the word of mortal men!
      •  Politics (& money) uber alles (none / 0)

        The drive to control others, dumb them down, and employ them as a cheap workforce runs as a continuous thread throughout our post-hunter-gatherer history.

        It is only at a certain point in one's life -- if it happens at all -- when one seizes the adult role over one's own destiny, throwing off father-figures of all types of authority, whether State, or President, or Boss, or whoever stands in your way to respecting yourself as a full adult.

        Sometimes, it just comes from outliving a lot of bastards who thought they were smarter than you...

        If a thousand men were not to pay their tax bills this year, that would not be a violent and bloody measure, as it would be to pay them, and enable the State...

        by HenryDavid on Sun Feb 12, 2006 at 12:38:10 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  And conservatives wonder... (none / 1)

      why we are slowly losing the science and innovation race with other nations. What good are 70,000 more science teachers if conservatives are promoting people like this guy?
      •  It's all about outsourcing. (4.00 / 2)

        The US has outsourced all its heavy industry.  With call centers in Bombay, it's outsourced its service industries.  It has further outsourced its high-tech expertise, its managerial sector, even its journalism:  it relies on the BBC to cover all of its foreign news.

        And now, with the systematic undermining of US Universities -- their attempts to turn academic hiring into political appointments, their disparagement of science, their chilling of free inquiry --  they're in the process of basically outsourcing the country's intellectual capital.  With a tight reign on stem cell research, and a campaign under way to chip away at the foundations of scientific thought, they've ensured that other labs and think tanks and facilities around the world are getting on with the business of research, moving ahead of American efforts.

        A powerful country can't do this indefinitely.  At some point, a nation of passive consumers is going to become vulnerable  in the face of other countries who have seen fit to hang on to their innovations and creative energy.  American hegemony cannot survive the transformation of Enlightenment reason  into the decadent cultural decay of superstition and irrationality.  

        Nothing requires a greater effort of thought than arguments to justify the rule of nonthought. -- Milan Kundera

        by Dale on Sun Feb 12, 2006 at 11:15:17 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  but we're not (none / 0)

          ..."a nation of passive consumers".

          We are a nation of active creators. Or at least a greater number of us are than you will find in almost any other nation.

          Please don't mistake the minority in power for the majority of the people. Yes, our majority is under-educated and this is getting worse, but we are very creative and resourceful. Silicon Valley is still the center of the tech universe; madison avenue is still the center of the advertising world; wall street is still the center of the financial world; Hollywood is still the center of the entertainment world.

          I've seen the Creationists come and go before. What's different this time is that the government is on their side like never before BUT they are being opposed by rank and file non-politicians and non-scientists like never before. Also, finally many scientists are fighting back, something that in the past was largely left up to Dawkins, Gould, and Miller.

          You got no fear of the underdog. That's why you will not survive. - Spoon

          by brainiacamor on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 10:34:56 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Don't be mad at Ham (none / 0)

      When one of the Jehovah Witless used to come to my door and ask if I wanted to hear the word of God, I would ask if they had pencil & paper, then I would give them my phone number and when they asked what that was I would say the next time you are talking to God make it a three way call until then we can talk about what men of old wrote and has been reinterpreted ever since.
      Now Ham has taught everyone approached by Christian who wants to share the Bible or says Jesus said, all you have to do in response is say were you there and do you remember hearing that exactly.

      I will not debate creation as not qualified but if you go to www.religionquestioned.com , you will see that the God of the book of Babble is as incompetent rat bastard as George Bush

    •  With drek like this (none / 0)

      In a way, I guess this explains why these nutjobs are out there telling people that gays shouldn't teach or be around children, because if they do, gays will indoctrinate these kids to homosexuality.

      January 20. 2009 cannot come soon enough.

      by Crisis Corps Volunteer on Sun Feb 12, 2006 at 08:44:14 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  You've caught one of the points that was made (4.00 / 2)

    ...at dinner the other night.  (Side story - when one of my wive's co-workers at her elementary school had our oldest son in her class, she commented on the arcane scientific information he knew by saying "You must have really interesting dinnertime conversations at your house!")

    Anyway - the point of decreasing generational span as organisims become more primitive is an important one, because it multiplies by many times the already vast lengths of time over which evolution has had an opportunity to operate.  As hard as a billion years is for us to visualize, The number of generations that billion years represents when the period of reproductive maturity is measured in hours or days is even harder.  

    I hope your book has a discussion on the numerous geologic findings that support evolutionary theory that were made post-Darwin, such as radioactive age dating, plate tectonics, stratigraphic superposition, conodonts, etc.

    •  Liked your side story, Ernest (none / 1)

      Reminded me of my own side story. My wife, too, was a teacher - HS English. At a year-end staff barbeque at the principal's home, my youngest daughter, three years old, brought the entire scene to a standstill when she ran up to her mother shouting at the top of her lungs "Mommy, Mommy, their kitten marked me with his scent glands!"

      WARNING: When not being directly observed, this post may cease to exist or exist only in a vague and undetermined state.

      by Democarp on Sun Feb 12, 2006 at 03:59:55 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Outstanding Post (none / 1)

    And for more on both Ken and the creationists, check out PZ Meyers at Pharyngula
  •  you left out (4.00 / 4)

    the superiority thing i.e. people don't want to believe that they've evolved from earlier life forms because that would mean that they're not special or not as special as if they were created [directly] by the hands of an all knowing all powerful divinity & in that divinity's image.

    this, i think, this need to to prop up the ego, to establish once & for all that one is special is a repeating bias that science has faced:  galileo, for one, when he dared to suggest that earth was not the center of the universe, & freud, when he dared to suggest that human beings weren't completely rational.

    how very odd, these strange creatures, collectively known as humanity.  s.

    the best lack all conviction while the worst are full of passionate intensity --w.b.yeats the second coming

    by synth on Sun Feb 12, 2006 at 06:56:21 AM PDT

    •  If we evolved, why did we stop evolving?......... (none / 0)

      One of my very favorite questions from the pinacle of creation superior types.

      Remember- when the Republicans start accusing others of doing something they consider awful, it is because they are doing it and trying to cover it.

      by maybeeso in michigan on Sun Feb 12, 2006 at 09:23:34 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I hope you tell them, (none / 1)

        some of us still are!

        tragically un-hip
        ..- .... --..-- / --- -.- .-.-.-

        -5.88, -6.82

        by Debby on Sun Feb 12, 2006 at 09:48:52 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Sure are! (none / 0)

          KRAMER: [...] Will people be able to breathe underwater in the year two-thousand?
          JERRY: Some of us.
          -Seinfeld, S8E20 "The Millennium"

          -----
          The badness of torture is invariant over inflictors. -js7a

          by Number 6 on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 05:57:17 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  All of us and all species on Earth are still (none / 0)

          evolving.   What is scary is that so many of these poor people seem to think that the world is as it is and has been always and won't change because this is the highest and best possible and furthermore its the way it always has been.

          "If English was good enough for Jesus, its good enough for me."    wish I could remember who said that

          Remember- when the Republicans start accusing others of doing something they consider awful, it is because they are doing it and trying to cover it.

          by maybeeso in michigan on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 07:07:59 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Darwins' Birthday Party (none / 0)

    There's a little birthday party going on over in Melvin's diary

    There's cake and everything. The two posts are different but make a nice set over coffee.

    •  Just posted the below, at melvin's diary... (none / 0)

      but I think it fits here, too:

      :::

      I wake up every Sunday to NPR and the first story I heard was about the national celebration of Darwin's 197th in churches today, as "a concerted effort by churches across the country to illustrate that evolution and religion are not exclusive choices."  After a quick fly through the internets, I can't find any other coverage of this story, NYTimes, included.  Sad that wacko ID theory regulary makes the front page on many sites I've visited this morning.  Cheers to NPR.

      Happy Birthday, Charles Darwin.  May your life's work and elegant, beautiful contributions to our world no longer be undermined by extrremist wackos!

      ::

      Thanks DS, for yet another great article!

      I marched against the Iraq War before it began, and believe lobbyists are destroying America--that's why I support Barack Obama for the nomination.

      by wvillmike on Sun Feb 12, 2006 at 07:35:22 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  If you're in the San Diego Area (none / 0)

      there's a Darwin's Birthday party themed performance you can go to.  It's Dr. Stephen Baird and the Opossums of Truth, who will be playing and singing the Scientific Gospel.

      Google for details.  You won't be sorry.

      We need not think alike to love alike -- Ferenc Dávid

      by ogre on Sun Feb 12, 2006 at 09:27:16 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Mark of a good writer: (none / 0)

    you throw away great titles without a thought: one million grandmas There's a title for you. Readers here might (or might not) wish to check out my celebration of Darwin's birthday.

    Great as always, DS.

    What's so hard about Peace, Love, and Truth and Progress?

    by melvin on Sun Feb 12, 2006 at 07:12:35 AM PDT

  •  Nice job (none / 0)

    2 thoughts -

    With people like Abramoff running around, how can anyone doubt we're descended from slime?

    I supposed it's a result of polarized politics, but this whole argument is kind of sad.  The ID crowd - as folks of that sort of politics usually do - is arguing against a strawman.  Science and faith aren't incompatible.  To be sure, I'm sure there are scientists who think that Creation was a result of random chance, but "the theory of evolution," as I understand it, refers more to what happened after creation . . .

    "It's possible for human being(sic) and fish to co-exist peacefully." George W. Bush

    by mississippi scott on Sun Feb 12, 2006 at 07:13:14 AM PDT

  •  Darwin was a great teacher (none / 1)

    In my science classes here in the buckle of the bible belt I try to convey the wonder and power of  the great idea that Chas and his colleagues introduced to our world.

    He concludes "Origin"...

    "Thus, from the war of nature, from famine and death, the most exalted object which we are capable of conceiving, namely, the production of the higher animals, directly follows. There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved."

  •  Spelling (none / 0)

    Whether he would be considered Homo sapiens or classified as a late model H. antessesor

    That should be H[omo] antecessor.

    I very much enjoyed the earlier (more extended version) of this that was previously published on DKos -- in fact, I just went to look it up the other day -- though I could have wished for more detail, or indeed, a full length book about all the intermediate species.  A good job.

  •  What we're up against (none / 0)

    There's a commercial on the Tupelo NBC station.  A preacher's sitting at a desk - something like "With wars and earthquakes, the time is approaching for Christ's reappearance.  Are you ready for the time when all good Christians disappear (his image fades out), and Jesus reappears?  Watch the (can't remember the name of the church) hour Sundays at 6:30 a.m."

    This is nothing but fraud (um, Preacher?  Can you tell me a time in human history when there weren't wars and earthquakes?) - but people all over - and especially down here - buy into it.

    DarkSyde, maybe you can do a post with a  psychoanalyst's opinion as to why so many people are so willing to swallow crap like this?  They're smart enough to not buy the Brooklyn Bridge, unless it's from a guy who stands up in front of them on Sunday and waves a Bible around -

    "It's possible for human being(sic) and fish to co-exist peacefully." George W. Bush

    by mississippi scott on Sun Feb 12, 2006 at 07:22:03 AM PDT

  •  If I believed in astrology (none / 0)

    (wow, what a header to use on a comment on a science diary!)...which I don't, I'd want this to be my birthday - Darwin and Lincoln, born on the same day.

    Maybe I feel this way because I share my birthday with Senator Joseph McCarthy?

    The only thing we have to fear is fear itself.

    by sidnora on Sun Feb 12, 2006 at 07:22:16 AM PDT

  •  Darwin, a true great (none / 1)

    He was one of those brilliant, era-defining scientists like Newton before him and Einstein after him.

    He was a true big thinker, who completely revolutionised our understanding of not only his specialisation - but of science in general.

    Long after the hoardes of ignorant, bellicose Creationists are nothing but a humorous footnote to history, Darwin's memory will live.

    If only there were more like him.

    "In America fundamentalist Christians believe the world was created 6,000 years ago - in England people drink in bars that are older than that." - Steve Aylett

    by Mephistopheles on Sun Feb 12, 2006 at 07:32:48 AM PDT

  •  Creationism and God as Puppet-Master (none / 0)

    I am appalled of course by creationism as espoused by the whackjobs who are trying to subvert the natural and empirical teachings of science. While we're opposing them, can we not also point out the lunacy of those who point to the heavens after scoring a touchdown?

    If God chose to engineer your touchdown he must also have chosen to engineer the failure of the defense. Were the defense all bad people and you more worthy? When Jesus is praised for saving a passenger in an auto wreck, is it not implied that He actively allowed the others to be killed? The problem isn't just that these people are wired on religion - their religious structure is based clearly on the belief that they are the elect - the chosen - the ones Jesus gives favours to.

    They are anything but religious - they deny the creativity and freedom inherent in every new moment as they worship the false god of predestination. A truly religious person knows that we humans have received the gift of free will. We are at any moment capable of great good or harm. We have the inherent power within us every day to feed hungry children or to buy an AK47 and take down a Mcdonald's. God is not a puppeteer - He allows us to choose. And he doesn't interfere in the affairs of men unless He is asked to provide guidance, solace, understanding or love. Many right wing Christians worship a false God of imposed will whose words are twisted to suit their belief structure. They are the elect and their pastors are the prophets. If those pastors preach that George Bush is godly and Darwin is wrong - end of story.

    Canada - where a pack of smokes is ten bucks and a heart transplant is free.

    by dpc on Sun Feb 12, 2006 at 07:45:07 AM PDT

    •  The attacks on Darwin are all about POWER. (none / 1)

      If you take away a mans ability to reason then you can define his reality for him. It is the same old concept. They believe in Freedom. The freedom to create your reality. Once they do that they have the POWER.

      In every moment of every day we only have two choices. Act out of fear or act out of love

      by Jlukes on Sun Feb 12, 2006 at 10:08:12 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Einstein (none / 0)

    The most beautiful experience we can have is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion that stands at the cradle of true art and true science. Whoever does not know it and can no longer wonder, no longer marvel, is as good as dead, and his eyes are dimmed. It was the experience of mystery-- even if mixed with fear-- that engendered religion. A knowledge of the existence of something we cannot penetrate, our perceptions of the profoundest reason and the most radiant beauty, which only in their most primitive forms are accessible to our minds: it is this knowledge and this emotion that constitute true religiosity. In this sense, and only this sense, I am a deeply religious man.
    -- Albert Einstein, The World As I See It, 1931
  •  I think I grabbed this link here yesterday (none / 1)

    http://www.uwosh.edu/...

    An Open Letter Concerning Religion and Science

    We've reached our goal of gathering 10,000 clergy signatures. The next step in our campaign is outlined here.

    See below to endorse the following letter
    Click here to learn more about the "Clergy Letter Project"

    Within the community of Christian believers there are areas of dispute and disagreement, including the proper way to interpret Holy Scripture. While virtually all Christians take the Bible seriously and hold it to be authoritative in matters of faith and practice, the overwhelming majority do not read the Bible literally, as they would a science textbook. Many of the beloved stories found in the Bible - the Creation, Adam and Eve, Noah and the ark - convey timeless truths about God, human beings, and the proper relationship between Creator and creation expressed in the only form capable of transmitting these truths from generation to generation. Religious truth is of a different order from scientific truth. Its purpose is not to convey scientific information but to transform hearts.

    We the undersigned, Christian clergy from many different traditions, believe that the timeless truths of the Bible and the discoveries of modern science may comfortably coexist. We believe that the theory of evolution is a foundational scientific truth, one that has stood up to rigorous scrutiny and upon which much of human knowledge and achievement rests. To reject this truth or to treat it as "one theory among others" is to deliberately embrace scientific ignorance and transmit such ignorance to our children. We believe that among God's good gifts are human minds capable of critical thought and that the failure to fully employ this gift is a rejection of the will of our Creator. To argue that God's loving plan of salvation for humanity precludes the full employment of the God-given faculty of reason is to attempt to limit God, an act of hubris. We urge school board members to preserve the integrity of the science curriculum by affirming the teaching of the theory of evolution as a core component of human knowledge. We ask that science remain science and that religion remain religion, two very different, but complementary, forms of truth.

    Click the links that follow to see the alphabetical lists of clergy members who have endorsed this letter

    A to E  - F to J - K to O - P to S - T to Z

    Listing by States

    Signatures are current as of 10 February 2006
    10,266 signatures collected to date

    The biggest threat to America is not communism, it's moving America toward a fascist theocracy... -- Frank Zappa

    by NCrefugee on Sun Feb 12, 2006 at 08:12:13 AM PDT

  •  Slightly OT continental drift question (none / 0)

    I was looking at projections of the future results of continental drift, with one of the predictions being that Africa will crunch up against Europe sometime in the next 50 million years creating the Mediterranean mountains where the sea used to be. My question is whether anyone has seen a detailed map based on this projection, giving some indication what would happen to drainage (i.e. the Nile, Danube, etc.) and other geographical details. I was just curious, is all.

    Je suis Marxiste, tendance Groucho.

    by gracchus on Sun Feb 12, 2006 at 08:37:02 AM PDT

    •  Continental Drift (none / 0)

      We've just been watching "The Future is Wild", a series of DVDs of speculation set (respectively), 5 million, 100 million and 200 million years in the future. I think it was originally shown on Animal Planet a couple of years ago.

      Anyway, their projection was that in 5 million years the Straights of Gibraltar will be closed, and that, accompanied by an ice age, will create a huge salt flat where the Mediterranean used to be. The more biological predictions were pigs walking on tiptoe over the rocky islands, being preyed on by a kind of weasel, and a lizard with sticky frills that runs through swarms of brine flies and licks off whatever sticks.

      Fun stuff, and a little modern natural history thrown in to prove it isn't totally guesswork.

      --
      Paper Ballots Counted By People!

      by Rupert on Sun Feb 12, 2006 at 06:34:52 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  "If you cleaned him up, ... " (none / 1)

    [i]dressed him in modern clothing and put him on a subway in New York, no one would notice anything different about him.[/i]

    - What happens on DailyKos, stays on Google.

    by Jon Meltzer on Sun Feb 12, 2006 at 08:52:15 AM PDT

  •  First, evolution, then, heliocentrism (none / 0)

    It's not just evolution under fire, as has been pointed out a number of times here and elsewhere, it's all science.

    If any of yo haven't read the famous wedge document put forth by the Discovery Institute, here is a link to one version:http://www.antievolution.org/features/wedge.html. It has been widely circulated online, and I think there are a number of variants, but the underlying idea is that the very existence of science threatens the Creationist idea of a god-centered universe and a god-centered society. Evolution is the tip of the wedge. By calling evolution into question, a wedge is formed by which ideas like empirical evidence, objective reasoning, and the scientific method can be called into question whenever they confict with religious dogma-- neatly removing them as any kind of locus of power to withstand theocracy.

    So what's next up the wedge?

    Here is a link I found which may be a little farther up the wedge, and I swear I thought it was a spoof or a hoax at first:

    Catholic Apologetice International

    Apparently, and shockingly, it's for real. Here is a brief quote:

    CAI will write a check for $1,000 to the first person who can prove that the earth revolves around the sun. (If you lose, then we ask that you make a donation to the apostolate of CAI). Obviously, we at CAI don't think anyone CAN prove it, and thus we can offer such a generous reward. In fact, we may up the ante in the near future.

    Go poke around there, you'll see that these people do not believe that the earth revolves around the sun.

    Yes, you heard that right. The Earth is the Center of the Universe, and not just metaphorically speaking.

    This, paired with the military imagery on the site, will make your skin crawl. I amy be wrong, but aren't these guys friends with Mel Gibson?

  •  I've been celebrating Darwin Day since med school (none / 1)

    By reading a little bit of "Descent of Man" over breakfast, while I eat a banana. I get a whole "circle of life" vibe off the thing.
    •  Ha. (none / 0)

      I am going to eat a banana right now, just because you said that. Unfortunately, I don't have a copy of Darwin handy. WIll Dawkins do?
      •  Dawkins is fine (none / 0)

        Pinker even. Enjoy your banana. :-)
        •  Hehe (none / 0)

          A banana does sound good right about now.

          Anywho, this is a bummer, sorta, but let me paraphrase what this creationist pamphlet told me about bananas (What?! I can read em if I want.... It's amusing)  :

          Note how the banana:

          1. Fits easily in a human hand,
          2. Changes color to indicate freshness,
          3. Is pleasing to our sense of taste.

          This was their proof that humans did NOT evolve from apes. Good stuff, no?

          Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job. -Douglas Adams

          by DelusionalLiberal on Sun Feb 12, 2006 at 11:55:24 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  This proves creationism? (none / 0)

            Bwahahahaha.  You're right, it is funny.

            All fruit changes color to indicate when it is ready to be eaten.  And fruit is usually ready to be eaten when the seeds are at the optimal stage so they can be dispersed for propagation of the plant species.

            If a banana is proof of creationism because it can fit into a human hand, how do creationists explain a raspberry, which is easily crushed if you aren't too careful, or a coconut, which needs to be opened with a rock or a mallet.

            BTW - I don't like the taste or texture of banana.

            These people don't take debate, do they?

            January 20. 2009 cannot come soon enough.

            by Crisis Corps Volunteer on Sun Feb 12, 2006 at 08:39:59 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  Beautiful diary! (none / 0)

    As a engineer/scientist some things which are not common sense to those without training and exposure are common to us. While I've long recognized the difference in the way we think I've never read a better description of those differences. I've also never read a better way to bring both sides together.

    You've described the path we've likely taken beautifully without getting bogged down in the science.

    Great job and thank you.

    I'm Ron Shepston and I'm not done yet. There's much left to accomplish.

    by CanYouBeAngryAndStillDream on Sun Feb 12, 2006 at 10:13:52 AM PDT

  •  Whatever was God thinking? (none / 1)

    He did all that work in 7 days a few thousand years ago and completely ignored all the evidence that the universe had already produced all the necessary building materials and the architecture of evolution and the dynamism for it.  

    And then He had so little trust in the humans He created that he made dinosaur skeletons, fossilized them, and hid them in the earth to test their faith 5,000 years later.  Then He divinely inspired the folks who wrote the Bible to give two different stories of creation and the Garden of Eden.

    What a practical joker!  You gotta love Him.

    As the great philospher Randy Newman says, "That's What I Love About Mankind."

    The IPCC predicts average global temperatures to rise enough by 2050 to put 20-30% of all species at risk for extinction.

    by Plan9 on Sun Feb 12, 2006 at 10:21:33 AM PDT

  •  NYC event February 12 (none / 0)

    "Charles Darwin Live and in Performance"!
    8 p.m. Producers Club Theatre at 358 W. 44th St.  Tickets are $25 at the door

    the BBC will be filming it, too.

    The writer/performer is Richard Milner -- a Darwin expert, anthropologist, editor at Natural History magazine.

    His song lyrics are so brilliant and hilarious I was sitting on the edge of my chair,enraptured, then almost painfully splitting my sides with laughter.  

    His books and articles are very good, too.
    He did an excellent special issue of Natural History Magazine about Darwin.

    Best Diary of the Year? http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/2/23/03912/3990

    by LNK on Sun Feb 12, 2006 at 11:14:38 AM PDT

  •  Charles Darwin also figured out how coral atolls (none / 0)

    formed, and got it substantially right, well before he published The Origin of Species.  

    His story is a bit like that of Babe Ruth, who was an excellent pitcher before becomong a super home run hitter.

  •  Beautiful post (none / 0)

    I must admit, that I have missed your past posts and intend to go back and read them, so I hope they are all archived. WAIT, oh no, I'm being channeled by Ken Ham....AHHHHH!!!

    DarkSyde,

    You obliviously don't know what you're talking about because if the world is random then so are your thoughts and your brain and your writing and everything else. How do you know that what you're saying is even correct? Maybe it's just randomly WRONG and...AHHHH!

    Whew. I exorcised him from my midocondria! Anyone interested in my diary on Kenny Boy can go HERE. It's no where near as beautiful as this, but may be good for a laugh.

    "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe." - Albert Einstein

    (-8.25, -6.15)

    by A Patriot on Sun Feb 12, 2006 at 11:31:37 AM PDT

  •  Thank you (none / 0)

    Spent an hour in Science Heaven with my 10-year-old daughter on my lap at the computer; we read through the whole diary, went to the links & photos, pondered our creature-hood, and now are headed out into the sunshine for a walk to -- yes -- McDonald's...  oh well, still lots of evolution to go.

    If a thousand men were not to pay their tax bills this year, that would not be a violent and bloody measure, as it would be to pay them, and enable the State...

    by HenryDavid on Sun Feb 12, 2006 at 02:18:01 PM PDT

  •  To see why the God of the Bible didn't create the (none / 0)

    world and is a miserable a rat bastard as George Bush go to wwww.religionquestioned.com

    If any believers are offended by this, then plaese reply to web site which even has an offer to shut down ubder certain circumstances. If you are unable to respond, please have your cleric do so.
    If they show site to be wrong, I will gladly apologize.

  •  Two of my favorite quotes: (none / 0)

    "There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved."  (Origin, 1st. Edition 1859).

    "What a book a devil's chaplain might write on the clumsy, wasteful, blundering, low, and horribly cruel works of nature!" written to Joseph Hooker in 1856.

  •  Thank you all for this! (none / 0)

    Artists and authors alike, it's beautiful and brilliant. I was particularly moved by the following phrase: You are made of stardust. For some reason it just struck me as beautiful, simultaneously humbling and..whatever the opposite of humbling is :D

    Happy Darwinday to you too.

    Pointing out that I am not, in fact, clever at all, is neither original nor clever.

    by Not Clever At All on Sun Feb 12, 2006 at 09:39:02 PM PDT

  •  A damn good story (none / 0)

    that's what the above post is, at its heart.  as it happens, it is excellent science and fine writing, but without those two things it is really really compelling, awesome, stunning, riveting...all the things i look for in a script.

    the creation myth is a stupid story.  it has logic holes that make "24" look sensible.  it has characters who act like assholes (especially adam), it has the most ridiculous use of deus ex machina ever in history (um, i mean, it sort of invents the literary device.  remind me, who does cain marry after he kills abel?  so it is objectively pro-incest as well.

    those poor kids are being led down the garden path of not just stupidity-by-which-i-mean-religion, but also down the path of bad storytelling and writing.  shit, Lewis may have imbedded christian crap into narnia, but he told an exciting enough tale it didn't matter.

    and for the best examplet of this, i give you the Left Behind series from Fred Clark.  frickin genius, that guy.

    "there is only one plot - things are not what they seem." Jim Thompson

    by robert green on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 08:06:56 AM PDT

  •  G-d versus the Aliens (none / 0)

    I think that one key point that always should be repeated in this context is that there's nothing wrong with believing that someone out there helped create life on Earth or guided evolution here, or that the seeds of life somehow originated on another planet in our solar system or another start system.

    If you say, as the Scientologists do, that we're somehow shaped by a war involving a bunch of aliens, OK, that's probably a testable hypothesis. It's a little bizarre, but it's not supernatural.

    Even if you start out by saying, "OK, I'm interested in seeing if there are scientific ways to see if G-d or some other supernatural force exists," and you then design experiments, gather data and draw reasonable conclusions from the data, that's not so bad.

    The key problem with the unIntelligent Design people is that they start with a conclusion and, as far as I can tell, refuse to design experiments to test their ideas or to look honestly and openly at the data. In other words, the problem is not that they disagree with scientists as the fact that they absolutely refuse to use the scientific method to develop or test their ideas.

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