Daily Kos

Good God, What Have We Done to our Marines?

Thu Jun 01, 2006 at 08:00:20 AM PDT

Susie Madrack at Suburban Guerilla has an incredible story from the Daily Telegraph about the living conditions previously observed by the Marines alleged to have committed the massacre at Haditha.

"Haditha was shockingly different - a feral place where the marines hardly washed; a number had abandoned the official living quarters to set up separate encampments with signs ordering outsiders to keep out; and a daily routine punctured by the emergency alarm of the dam itself with its antiquated and crumbling machinery."

"The reporter was there just before the first massacre reports came out in January.

"The day before my arrival one soldier had shot himself in the head with his M16. No one would discuss why."

I'm sure as the Corps and the nation learns the whole story it will become obvious that this horror was just waiting to happen.

"The washing facilities were at the top and the main lavatories at the base. With about 800 steps between them, many did not bother to use the official facilities.

Instead, a number had moved into small encampments around the dam's entrances that resembled something from Lord of the Flies. Entering one, a marine was pulling apart planks of wood with his dirt-encrusted hands to feed a fire."

"It is not yet known where exactly the men responsible for the killing of the 24 civilians in Haditha were based. There was a handful of small, forward-operating bases in the town and surrounding area, with two dozen or so in each. If they were in these, it is highly unlikely their conditions were any better.

They would certainly also have shared the recent history of the battalion. It had undergone three tours in Iraq in two and a half years.

More than 30 of its members had died in the previous one, the majority when the unit led the major attack on Fallujah, then at the heart of the insurgency. Now they were in Haditha, one of the most dangerous settlements in Iraq, after only seven months away."

Jesus Christ, these were the same men who had been thrown into that hell at Falluja!  Now they're on their third tour in thirty months!  That's hardly any time off from the combat at all, good Lord, 30 days of combat can seem like ten years.

Something went horribly, horribly wrong with the Marine Corps chain of command here.  I have an incredible amount of difficulty believing American officers allowed this to happen---in fact, the only way I'm sure this degradation could have happened is that we broke our men with those tours and that service in Falluja.

Multiple horror stories of war crimes have come out of Falluja, snipers gunning down civilians and phosphorous being used indiscriminately as a chemical weapon.  One wonders what other horrors are yet to surface.

Haditha, to this writer, isn't about a massacre from a small group of Marines.  It's about putting the Corps to the breaking point, really doing it, and then looking at the results.  A huge chunk of the Corps chain of command was broken along with it.

We know, to some extent, what those Marines are have alleged to have done.  Too little is known about what they went through to get to that point.  For the love of God, get all of our women and men home now before we get any more to that point of madness.

Tags: Haditha, Marine Corps, shame, Iraq War, Recommended (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 255 comments

  •  And just think of all the similar stories... (20+ / 0-)

    ...we never get to hear about.

    Thanks for posting.

    •  That's not what I'm thinking about (22+ / 0-)

      I'm thinking about my 20-year old cousin who is being deployed to Iraq with the Marine Special Forces in the fall.  I'm scared to hell for him and his mom.  

      "They're trying to fool you. They're trying to scare you. And they're not telling you the truth." Obama '08

      by bawbie on Thu Jun 01, 2006 at 08:54:02 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I am beginning to think (17+ / 0-)

        I am beginning to think that every man and woman who puts on the uniform is nothing more than an enabler for Bush's war.  No longer is there honor in this service, only the shame of enabling a bad commander to perpetuate an illegal and immoral war.

        I am beginning to think, under the circumstances, that a dishonorable discharge may be the only honorable alternative.

        this message is intended to inform. any annoyance, abuse, threat, or harassment is solely in the perception of the reader, not the intention of the poster.

        by horsewithnoname on Thu Jun 01, 2006 at 09:47:23 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  When you begin to think this way (8+ / 0-)

          do not let anyone deter you. And pass it on to your children,grandchildren and anyone else you know. That is the way to get through this nationalistic warmongering,uniform wave the flag humbug rubbish.

          FUKUOKA: Part of my purpose is to create a society where no one has to do anything.PARACELSUS:So then, you wormy and lousy Sophist...

          by abbeysbooks on Thu Jun 01, 2006 at 10:19:52 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  I think it wise to (42+ / 0-)

          not go too much into blaming the soldiers and marines.

          If what is reported about Haditha is true, then the marines responsible need to be punished, and severely.

          But I think more of the blame has to go to the administration and the warmongers than to the marines and soldiers in the field.  That's the real problem.

          Putting someone in an inhuman situation is going to cause inhuman behavior, each and every time.  We know this, and we've known it for a long time.  It's the idiots in charge of this administration and war who seem not to realize -- or do not care -- what they're doing to otherwise good young men and women by putting them into those situations.

          Phil Caputo's A Rumor of War gives what I think is a really good insight into the sort of mind-fuck that wars -- especially guerilla wars -- do to soldiers.

          It really does defy belief, but it's real.  It's easy for us to look at this from the outside and judge the individual actors, but what we really need to pay attention to is the war and the real perpetrators of that war.

          This is probably going to get me hammered, but it needs to be said.  This sort of animal situation breeds animal behavior, and it can happen to anyone.

          We cannot think that we are above such behavior if we're not in that situation.  The title of the diary is apt, except I'd change it to: What have the directors of this war done to these people?

          Je suis inondé de déesses

          by Marc in KS on Thu Jun 01, 2006 at 10:23:50 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Thank you for saying this (11+ / 0-)

            I served in the Navy from 1966 to 1986 starting as a Navy Corpsman. It was not very nice in 1970 in Southern California after a stint in Vietnam - I actually got spat on by "progressives" and called a baby killer. I couldn't get a date for the life of me because my haircut made me stick out as a service man. Funny thing is, it wasn't my war, I just did my duty. I actually agreed with those who spat on me that Vietnam was a totally mismanaged and pointless war that had nothing to do with our national security.

            Later, when I was stationed at the University of Nebraska for my education - it was a totally different scenario. My service was actually honored. Go figure that a Red State actually got what it was all about - duty and honor.

            It really is amazing for many of us to see the transformation in the national psyche from the 60's - starting in the late 80s, people now actually thank us for serving and recognize that we did not make the policy.

            Just like Vietnam had its Mi Lai, so too does every combat zone have its atrocities. That's the nature of armed conflict. If there is anything good about today's atrocities, it is the fact that they are coming out sooner and getting attention and justice more openly and rapidly than before.

            The foolish and the dead alone never change their opinions. James Russell Lowell

            by Serendipity on Thu Jun 01, 2006 at 11:31:27 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  That's the thing. (4+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              javelina, Serendipity, BurnetO, FrankFrink

              People need to say to themselves: "There but for the grace of [whatever thing you want] go I."

              All of us can sit in our comfort and say "I would never do anything like that," but it's rubbish.

              None of us knows what will happen to us or what we will do.  None of us.

              What happened with Calley and Caputo could happen to anyone, and until we realize that we're just going to see it happening over and over and over again.

              We have to get out of there.

              Je suis inondé de déesses

              by Marc in KS on Thu Jun 01, 2006 at 02:03:18 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I disagree (2+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                lgmcp, Demena

                The vast majority of the troops in Viet Nam did not commit war crimes. One always has a choice as to how one behaves in the face of adversity. It is not normal for troops, no matter how stressed to fire upon civilians, including women and children.
                I also don't buy the excuse that they are on their second or third tour. In WWII, soldiers were in for the duration; in fact, at the end of the war in Europe, troops were moved to the South Pacific when they thought their war was over.

                They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security. Ben Franklin

                by Blue in Texas on Thu Jun 01, 2006 at 02:46:38 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I suspect, neither have the vast majority of (2+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  BurnetO, Marc in KS

                  troops in Iraq.

                  I don't think it's a question of "normal." It's a question of how one reacts in an abnormal setting. Frankly, having been there, all I can say is "There, but for the grace of God, go I." I do not condone, but I do understand the very thin line that one must not cross.

                  In one sense, if the overall reason for the war is just, then one can focus blame on those who cross the line. But, as here, where the overall reason is suspect at best, then the cabal that beat the war drums and selfishly started this war need to also be accountable for unjustly creating the stage.

                  This incident, more than any other, has caused me to change my mind about what should happen if the Democrats re-take Congress. I now revel at the thought of Rep. Conyers weilding subpoena power. We have to find out what really happened here to prevent it from ever happening again.

                  The foolish and the dead alone never change their opinions. James Russell Lowell

                  by Serendipity on Thu Jun 01, 2006 at 04:32:35 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  I don't want to argue with you. (3+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  Serendipity, BurnetO, lgmcp

                  I'm just sort of reporting what the data suggest about what we should expect ordinary humans to do when they're thrust into a very extraordinary and dehumanizing situation.

                  Eighty years of research all tells us that if the situation is bizarre, you're going to get bizarre behavior.

                  I don't care if you buy it or not.  It's just what the data tell us.  I could tell you that the vast majority of soldiers over there aren't in such a stressful situation, I could tell you that the GIs in WWII weren't in this sort of situation where everybody's a potential enemy and everybody wants to kill you.  

                  I just think it's really presumptuous of us to expect that all of these ordinary kids are going to turn into supermen and do things that ordinary people cannot be expected to do.

                  But again, I'm not exusing; I'm trying to explain.  There is a difference.

                  Je suis inondé de déesses

                  by Marc in KS on Thu Jun 01, 2006 at 06:47:37 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

          •  Emphasis (10+ / 0-)

            If what is reported about Haditha is true, then the marines responsible need to be punished, and severely.

            But I think more of the blame has to go to the administration and the warmongers than to the marines and soldiers in the field.  That's the real problem.

            I emphasized your second paragraph because we really need to focus on those who created and misexecuted this war, creating the inhuman situation in which these people find themselves and the inhuman behavior that we could almost expect to be inevitable.

            This one should not stop at the marines directly, most proximally responsible. The culpability begins at the very top. I think that's the point of the diary. After all the title is (with my emphasis added:)

            "Good God, What Have We Done to our Marines?"

            Civil marriage is a civil right.

            by stitchmd on Thu Jun 01, 2006 at 12:56:48 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Ditto...thank you for saying this. (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            oofer, Marc in KS

            I have been wanting to put a diary together on my thoughts on this, but I have been unable to carve the time away from everything to do it. Your words bring us important angles to consider as we reflect on what's going on in Iraq. Thank you, Marc.

            •  I'm just trying to come at this (5+ / 0-)

              and not lose sight of the fact that what happened in Haditha (if it's all true) is a perfect direct and predictable consequence of the decision to wage this war, and wage it in the manner in which it is being waged.  If what they're saying about those marines is true, then you could insert any other marine into that situation and you're going to get very nearly the same results.  It's a consequence of the situation.

              It's too easy to just blame the "few bad apples" -- at Abu Ghraib, at Gitmo, in Falluja, in the boardrooms of American corporations, and so on, but after a time you start to think that everyone is a bad apple, or there's something seriously fucked up with the situations we put people in.  And the science tells us clearly that situations cause behavior.

              So yes, we must punish the marines who did this, if they did it -- but we can't stop there.  What we ask these young people to do is horrifying, and we have no right to refuse to accept the horrors that result.  The thing we have to do is get the hell out of there before more of this happens.  We're killing, or physically and psychologically maiming our young people, and we're killing and maiming Iraqis.  We need to get out.

              Je suis inondé de déesses

              by Marc in KS on Thu Jun 01, 2006 at 01:49:24 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  But we allowed it (5+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            lrhoke, Euroliberal, Marc in KS, majcmb1, lgmcp

            We, the American people, allowed this war, and continue to allow this war. So don't give me this bull about the difference between the directors of this war and the American people. If we really truly wanted to stop this war, we could. Ten million Americans marching upon Washington D.C. could shut down this government in a heartbeat. But it isn't happening. And it won't happen. Because it would require too much effort, too much sacrifice on our parts, and (gasp) somebody might actually get beat over the head with a truncheon! We are a nation of lazy cowards, and we get the government we deserve. Alas.

            So the title of this post is quite appropriate indeed. It wasn't some vague "they" who did this to our Marines. It is truely we -- all of us -- who have done this to our Marines. To say anything else is just self-serving BS.

            -- BT

            Religious conservatives are motivated by the suspicion that someone, somewhere, is having fun.

            by badtux on Thu Jun 01, 2006 at 01:28:12 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  That's fine, that's fine. (3+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              lrhoke, highacidity, liberal atheist

              But I would have you consider the fact that the American people have been lied to.  We're brought up with the idea that government is a good thing, that those are the people in charge, and we should trust them.  

              But the American people were lied to by the people they most needed to trust.

              Je suis inondé de déesses

              by Marc in KS on Thu Jun 01, 2006 at 01:40:23 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  OK, but the lies were transparent. (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                Marc in KS

                Their determination to invade Iraq was patently obvious, and patently divorced from any real-world interest in diplomacy, sanctions, UN support, etc.  

                I think an attentive 8-year-old could have detected that they were slavering to invade, take some oil, and establish some bases to consolidate our position in this critical region.  

                Which is why it so enraged me that the entire legislature signed on with scarcely a murmur.

                "The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function." -- Edward Teller

                by lgmcp on Fri Jun 02, 2006 at 07:28:58 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I think that there were some of us (1+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  lgmcp

                  who were well-intentioned, busy, and extra-gullible because of what happened in New York and Washington.  

                  I do blame the legislators, too, but even they were manipulated: the administration was screaming "mushroom clouds!" before the dust from the World Trade Towers had settled, and the people out in the hinterlands were eager to poke a stick in someone's eye.

                  The lies were only transparent to me because I don't want TV news and I don't read newspapers and because I spent the time to dig for what was real.  Most people don't do that, and I'm not sure I would expect everyone to do that -- then.  Now I tell everyone not to watch TV news and not to read newspapers.  Even I didn't anticipate the depravity of this administration at first.

                  Je suis inondé de déesses

                  by Marc in KS on Fri Jun 02, 2006 at 08:55:43 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

        •  Horsewithnoname, I disagree (15+ / 0-)

          There is still honor in service.  Don't smear hundreds of thousands of selfless men and women with the actions of a very, very few.  

          Bush's "enablers" are far closer to home. Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, Wolfowitz, Perle, Bolton, etc.

          •  True. Conditions & leadership also to blame (3+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            peraspera, Marc in KS, onanyes

            in this tragedy.

            I feel very bad for all Marines right now and for the horrible conditions they endured, the three tours of duty in 2 1/2 years in dangerous Iraq.

            Reading that they led the big offense into Fallujah puts a lot in place. They had the mentality and the fear and probably the rage and depression all this could bring about.

            How dare our leadership, how dare Rumsfeld, defend their record of management of the troops in Iraq and defend their reasons for being there now and their management of the whole war??

            How dare they?

            IT TOOK five years, the deaths of 4,100 US soldiers... to make Iraq safe for Exxon. ~ Derrick Z. Jackson

            by Gorette on Thu Jun 01, 2006 at 10:51:06 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Don't blame the troops (17+ / 0-)

          Military service is a high calling.  There really ARE peolle and governments around the world who wish to do do great harm to America and Americans, and the military is who you and I depend on to keep our families safe.  

          Obviously our military has been put to extreme and shameful misuse in Iraq, even more so than it was in SE Asia.  But blame the leaders, not the soldiers.

          I hope Dante was right, and that the traitors who have put our young men and women in this situation indeed burn in the ninth circle of hell.

          I am an Edwards Democrat.

          by ThirstyGator on Thu Jun 01, 2006 at 10:52:13 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Wrong (12+ / 0-)

          It is not the job nor responsibility of the enlisted personnel to to enable or mutiny a commander in chief.

          It is the citizenry of the country who have the power and are responsible - do not let them off the hook!

          There is plenty of honor and incredible talent and strength in our military - you aren't looking hard enough.  Perhaps when you come down from that high horse, you will have a better vantage point?

        •  No (17+ / 0-)

          This is the first time I've seen the notion of "blame the soldiers" come up in any discussions about Iraq.  It should end right here.  

          The vast majority of soldiers serving our military do not join because they support Bush's war.  They join because they see the military as a life of honor, serving the country.  They join because they see it as a way out of a life that might otherwise be a dead end.  They see it as a way to better themselves and to help this country.  

          The failure here is not the politics of all of this but the failure of the administration and the higher ups in the pentagon to honor the sacrifices that these people are willing to make.  These people go over there, prepared to died for their country, and they are given no support.  

          The attrocities we see are not the attrocities of those honorable self-sacrificing men and women, they are instead the side effect of months and years of psychological abuse by a government that doesn't care about them.  They are thrown into traumatic situations for extended periods of time and their only reward for survival is another trip into the fire.    I heard descriptions of what happend at Haditha and I was moved to tears, for the horror that was unleashed on those people and the sitaution that pushed those marines to unleash it.  

          Do not for one moment hold those people responsible for Bush's war.  They are the victims here.  They are paying, with their lives, for our country's cowardice and our ostritch mentality.  They sacrifice their lives because people here are so deeply afraid another 9/11 will happen that it's okay to do anything to stop it.  If we have to light the middle east afire and sacrifice thousands of other people's children to stop that from happening again, so be it.  

          The american public.  The one that voted for Bush twice.  The one that supported this war.  The one that doesn't protest and voice dissent.  The one that drives their SUV to work every day thinking that none of this is their problem.  That's who to blame.  Not our country in the abstract.  Not our founding principals.  And not, by any strech of the imagination, our troops.  

          •  I'm sympathetic, but (4+ / 0-)

            a good many of these guys joined up all gung ho after Sept. 11 in a paroxym of patriotism all hepped up to follow El General B*** into battle against the evil "others."  They were right there with their Hoohahs! and absentee votes making sure Mr.Tough on Terrorism would lead them into glory.  And B*** used every photo op he could to exploit their support and their sincere desire to wreak vengeance on an enemy.  Couldn't find Osama B's a** to kick?  Well, we got this other guy named Saddam and we already know we can take him.  (Plus, he's got some nice oil fields.)

            •  let's remember a couple of things (5+ / 0-)

              1. many of the soldiers believe that Iraq has something to do with 9-11.  This isn't by mistake.
              1. the current military is more right wing than the older one was;

              http://www.dlc.org/...

              DLC | Blueprint Magazine | February 9, 2006
              Polar Opposites
              By Will Marshall

              Table of Contents

              If you don't like how polarized U.S. politics has become, don't just blame Republicans and Democrats. Consider two other key contributors to today's politics of polarization -- the military and the academy.

              Since the draft ended in 1973, the U.S. military has become one of the nation's most conservative and rock-ribbed Republican bastions. Around the same time, New Left activists began storming the ramparts of higher education, moving universities sharply to the left. As a result, these two ostensibly nonpartisan institutions now define opposing poles on the contemporary political spectrum.

              [...]

              In the barracks, where televisions are usually tuned to Fox News, military personnel are socialized to view liberals as unpatriotic twits.
              [...]

              Mass conscription, begun in World War II and continued through the first half of the Cold War, ensured that the military faithfully mirrored U.S. society, with its dominant New Deal coalition and "natural" Democratic majority.

              Now, thanks to self-selection, the all-volunteer army has moved to the nation's right flank. According to 2004 exit polls, 34 percent of the voters in the presidential election were conservative, 45 percent moderate, and 21 percent liberal. But an Annenberg School study in the same year found that, in the military, 40 percent of the officers say they are conservative, 40 percent moderate, and just 7 percent liberal. Only 15 percent of the officers were Democrats, while 47 percent were Republicans and 31 percent independents. [...]

              When liberals saw 9-11, we wondered how we could make the country safe. When conservatives saw 9-11, they saw an investment opportunity.

              by onanyes on Thu Jun 01, 2006 at 12:11:11 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  unfair.... (3+ / 0-)

              Yes, many joined up after 9/11 to go fight in AFGANISTAN, and I think to assume that they all
              supported Bush is foolish.

              Remember Pat Tillman?  He was moved enough by
              9/11 to give up millions and a football to go
              defend his country in AFGANISTAN.

              It has become fairly well known that he didn't
              support the war in Iraq or Bush, so I think it is VERY unfair to assume exactly how people who "signed up" believe.

              We've got more than a few Kossacks serving and indeed, Markos himself served in the army a few
              years ago.

              •  'A good many' <> 'All' ... (0+ / 0-)

                But to the extent that it can be determined based on exit polls taken after the 2004 election, depending on which one you choose and accepting limited reliability, people with military service voted from between 57% to 80% for Bush.  Admittedly, "people with military service" is not the same as currently active in the military, but I could not find polls where those number are available.  I think the numbers would probably be similar.

                I also think it's notable that the number of RahRah events of B*** in front of enthusiastic military audiences appears to have diminished.  I would like to think that that's because it's getting harder to get military personnel to smile and clap enthusiastically whenever B*** spouts more cowboy nonsense divorced from reality.

          •  Marines are victims, but grownups too (3+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            acquittal, liberal atheist, lgmcp

            IHow ridiculous that sounds.  Are not the Marines who pulled those triggers and concealed the crime grownups themselves?  Senior military officers and civilian chickenhawks are to blame too, but grownups who let themselves be used to commit crimes like this are also guilty.  

            They could have NOT pulled the trigger.  But they did.  They could have reported the crime.  Some did and some did not.  They could have resigned, filed for CO status, or not enlisted at all.  Each and every one had a chance NOT to do this, and many more had a chance to report it.  

            There are two investigations, by the way.  One of the actual crime itself, and another of the coverup.  The latter is far more important, because it shows that the system is utterly broken.  If there had been no TIME reporter on the case the coverup would have succeeded.  We will never know how many coverups have already succeeded, or how many similar crimes are committed in our name daily.

            It is not dishonoring or attacking military personnel to expect them to be citizens and grownups with moral responsibility for their own behavior.  

            •  It's a hard line to follow, (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              liberal atheist

              but you have to keep in mind both the actors and the situation.  The people in that situation should absolutely be held responsible for what they did (if they did it).  No question.

              But that's not enough.  We have to bring it home to everyone that the makers of this clusterfuck are every bit as responsible and likewise should be punished.  You cannot expect the average person to somehow suddenly become superhuman and impervious to the situation.  If you do, you're going to be disappointed, and more and more of this crap is going to happen.

              So no one is letting those soldiers off the hook.  But it cannot stop there.

              Je suis inondé de déesses

              by Marc in KS on Thu Jun 01, 2006 at 02:07:55 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Grownups yes but... (0+ / 0-)

              Remember the situation they are put in.  First of all, when you go into the military, you are trained to be dependent on and faithful to the chain of command.  They are, in essence, brainwashed.  You have to be brainwashed to take 20 years of training that says you shouldn't kill people to be able to kill somebody at a moments notice without hesitation.

              Second of all, they are in a situation where they are constantly under threat.  This instills in them substantial paranoia (is that a cellphone or a detonator?  is that a scared driver or a suicide bomer?) as well as amping up the normal level of psychological stress.  This combined with the lack of a command structure that is defining clear mission goals, etc, and it's a recipe for disaster.

              In this country we hold that murder committed by an insane person isn't murder.  I would suggest to you that a massacre conducted in this manner was not done by sane people.  I would argue that they snapped.  That after months upon months of seeing their friends brutally murdered without any end in sight that collectively, they lost their minds.  The lack of adequate command structure and organization insured that the source of guidance and morality that should exist in the situation did not.  

              I heard a description of what happened with one of the soldiers and it made me ill.  I caugh this on Rhandi Rhodes ast night and I'm paraphrasing, but it went something like this.  They murdered a little girl and a soldier had to clean up the murdered girl's body.  And he her brains got all over his boots.  He called home to his mom and was just muttering over and over again about how he couldn't get the brains off.  Is that the behavior of a rational adult human being?  No.  That is somebody who had gone completely off the rails, and will probably go right back into the fight.

              The people responsible for this aren't the soldiers.  They are as much a victim of this situation as the people that were massacred.  It was their commander, their commander's commander, and on up the chain of command.  It was the people who covered this up.  It was the people who put them through hell so many times that it became them.  When in Rome do what the Romans do.  When in hell, do what the devil does.

            •  responsible adults? (0+ / 0-)

              after three tours of duty in Iraq?

              To use a historic comparison, AFAIK, the only people who got more than one tour of duty in Vietnam were people who volunteered for this. Another historic comparison... it was possible for soldiers to take R&R within Vietnam... Iraq is far more dangerous.

              So we stick Marines in the pressure cooker we call Iraq three times in a row and expect them to behave sanely?

              If you had been doing this, I wouldn't want you anywhere around me with a loaded gun.

              I suspect that real justice in Haditha would involve the soldiers entering "not guilty by reason of insanity" and the idiots in the chain of command who thought 3 terms (any 4 termers in Iraq?) of duty in Iraq was a good idea and cut the orders on trial for murder as the responsible parties.

              I expect something entirely different to happen.

              Looking for intelligent energy policy alternatives? Try here.

              by alizard on Thu Jun 01, 2006 at 04:16:29 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  Service to one's country is a noble cause (4+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          ilona, peraspera, Serendipity, cityduck

          The elected officials who started and have enabled this unjust war are the culprits here. It is a great military tradition to faithfully execute the orders of the civilian leadership, whether one agrees with the order or not is irrelevent. No, the true criminals here are the elected and appointed crooks.

          Republicans only care about republicans. Democrats care about the Republic.

          by beaukitty on Thu Jun 01, 2006 at 11:29:00 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  NO, NO, NO! (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          highacidity, javelina, Marc in KS

          It is THIS type of attitude that leads to the bullshit meme that if you criticize a war, or a policy you are criticizing the troops.

          In saying this crap you are playing into the hands
          of the wingnuts, this is exactly what they WANT to hear you say.

          Fact is, like it or not, we HAVE to have a military.
          And the FACT that people are willing to VOLUNTEER, keeps MY CHILDREN as well as others from being drafted.  I don't think ANYONE should be FORCED to join the military, but we do NEED a military so those who volunteer DESERVE our respect.

          I know there are many soldiers over their that may or may not agree with the reason they are there,
          but nevertheless have done good things for the Iraqi people.  We all know about the horror, and I also know that many of these soldiers will suffer with what they've had to deal with for the rest of their lives.

          I am very distressed about what has happened in Haditha but until we know more about the individuals involved, I'll blame the assholes who sent these guys to this hell hole.

          Most of these guys probably have Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome from Hell.  They shouldn't be there, they've been exposed to horror multiple times which is the WORST thing that can happen to someone with PTSS.  They should be home, under psychiatric care, and they'll be lucky if they even GET THAT when they come home.

          They have to held accountable for what they've done, but unless it turns out that one or more of them were natural born sadists like Charles Granger, I tend to feel that they are also victims in this nightmare. That doesn't excuse anything, but it should be factored into any consequences.

      •  I'll pray for your cousin (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        ThirstyGator, javelina, peraspera

        I hope you don't find my offer offensive.

        Bushco, putting the mock in democracy.

        by Southern Bell on Thu Jun 01, 2006 at 10:51:23 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  How about this one? (35+ / 0-)

      If he gives me permission, you'll be hearing a lot more about him soon, but suffice it say, this last weekend I had a conversation with a 60-something Biker, I know (old school, covered in tattoos and rides a Harley type) who isee once of twice a year.  He's an Ex-marine who did two combat tours in Vietnam between '66-68

      Last Year I got a shocking e-mail from him stating that he'd been reactived (4 DECADES after his last active duty tour) and was being shipped out overseas.   Turns out he's just spent the last 18 months of his life as a Prison guard at Gitmo (X-Ray to be precise).  He'd been forcibly reactivated by the Marines under some obscure law, because his particular MOS was in great demand.  (and let me tell you, he has some stories to tell so we'll se if he's willing to let me do a formal interview to post here)

      But what does it say about the state of our armed forces that they are drafting 60-something VETERANS now?

      Knowledge is power Power Corrupts Study Hard Be Evil

      by Magorn on Thu Jun 01, 2006 at 09:46:19 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Well if China is reading dailykos then (0+ / 0-)

        they know how bad it is over here. Paper tiger!

        FUKUOKA: Part of my purpose is to create a society where no one has to do anything.PARACELSUS:So then, you wormy and lousy Sophist...

        by abbeysbooks on Thu Jun 01, 2006 at 10:17:53 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  And when it comes to China, (0+ / 0-)

          this is one of those cases when it's better to keep your mouth shut and let them think you're stupid.  China does not need a demonstration of our effectiveness in controling something as small as Iraq.

          No longer a Grand Party. Just an Old one.

          by EeDan on Thu Jun 01, 2006 at 01:36:22 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  China (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            BurnetO

            and most of the rest of the world, is way ahead of us on this - as is anyone who visits BBC or the independant or reuters.... My Son is in China now and my daughter just returned from Germany... They've (Europe) had centuries to think about unnecessarily exposing your hand, unintended consequences, and so forth.

            By doing this at all , we made certain that, just the opposite of what the neocons hoped, we would reveal our limitations. It was an incredibly stupid act to invade IRAQ on a national security basis, for the "purpose" of improving national security. This is really Alice in Wonderland time ....

            "red hair and black leather, my favorite colour scheme" - Richard Thompson

            by blindcynic on Thu Jun 01, 2006 at 07:15:35 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  This sounds incredible... (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        cityduck

        I don't believe you have the whole story somehow.  

        You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you mad. Aldous Huxley

        by murrayewv on Thu Jun 01, 2006 at 10:28:32 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Three things I can tell you for certain (5+ / 0-)

          The man in question is a real live Veitnam vet, I met him doing business with a Vets Organziation he was a part of.  His tours were 66-68 (its tattoed on one of his arms)  even if you assume he went over when he was 18 that would make him 58,  Having seen him in person I know he looks considerably older than that and he has told me he is.

          I also know that he was at Gitmo because I reieved an e-mail from there that also listed his new mailing address.   I know he was also incredibly un-happy about going as he told me so.

          there are more stories he has to tell about X-ray and if he'll let me I will, but he's absolutley legit.

          Knowledge is power Power Corrupts Study Hard Be Evil

          by Magorn on Thu Jun 01, 2006 at 10:49:14 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Absolutely incredible! Please tell his story (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            javelina

            in detail. I'll be watching for it. I think it is through such revelations that we learn about the true situation, rather than from reporters. It gives us a certain subjective perspective that informs our hearts and fills in the blanks.

            What an awful thing for him to have gone through but I'm wondering what kind of guy he is and what Vietnam did to him. My brother had one tour in Vietnam and still thinks about it daily. It had a huge impact on him and he was lucky to survive his psychological problems from it all.  

            IT TOOK five years, the deaths of 4,100 US soldiers... to make Iraq safe for Exxon. ~ Derrick Z. Jackson

            by Gorette on Thu Jun 01, 2006 at 10:58:01 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Its not the age- (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            javelina

            its the 40 years since last service that is incredible.  If he was in national guard, then that is service.  Most older people called up were serving in national guard or reserves, not separated for 40 years.

            You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you mad. Aldous Huxley

            by murrayewv on Thu Jun 01, 2006 at 02:11:03 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  60 Minutes did a similar story a while back... (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          peraspera, annefrank, chainsaw mary

          about a 60-something year old woman being reactivated to serve in Iraq.  Apparently this is becoming fairly common.

        •  Lots of older folks in the National Guard (0+ / 0-)

          My father-in-law retired from the Guard at the age of 61, and gets both Social security and a military pension. He could have been reactivated at any time previous to then. My neighbor across the street was reactivated for Gulf War I at the age of 57 -- he was a retired supply sergeant in the National Guard, and still had a few years left on his last re-up committment. So yes, it happens. People who stayed on with the NoGo's under the impression that they were only going to get called up if our nation's very existence were imperilled, are now finding themselves overseas fighting foreign wars of agression when they'd expected to be at home fighting enemies attempting to attack America. It's sick... but it happpens.

          -BT

          Religious conservatives are motivated by the suspicion that someone, somewhere, is having fun.

          by badtux on Thu Jun 01, 2006 at 01:32:35 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  B*** & Co go to great lengths to make sure (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        lgmcp

        that their children and grandchildren or the children and grandchildren of their corporate contributors don't have to fight this war.

  •  We've dehumanized them (70+ / 0-)

    We threw them into an impossible situation with no clear goals or exit plan.  We sent them in unprepared with not enough men to do the job, not enough logistical support to get armor, and not enough planning to apparently even get clean.  We've pushed them to the point that they're barely treated as human.  And now we at home are expecting some high moral conscience?  These conditions we're putting them through are just sick.  I've said it since the beginning -- the war is wrong, but if we're going to do it we have to do it right.  This outcome, a bad war fought poorly is literally the worst case scenario.

    Read James Loewen's "Sundown Towns"!

    by ChicagoDem on Thu Jun 01, 2006 at 08:03:05 AM PDT

    •  War is hell. Hell can't possibly be good (27+ / 0-)

      for developing one's kinder, gentler, more rational nature.  (Except maybe retrospectively, if one comes back alive.)

      THE OPPOSITE OF CIVILIZATION IS NOT PRIMITIVENESS.

      THE OPPPOSITE OF CIVILIZATION IS WAR.

      "The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function." -- Edward Teller

      by lgmcp on Thu Jun 01, 2006 at 08:24:03 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  That's right, we're at war (8+ / 0-)

        and this is what war is.  There isn't any lining up Redcoat style and facing your foe mano y mano, it is survival at times and it is savage.  They rip into our soldiers using suicide bombs and hit and run attacks, our guys try to weed out the insurgents from the population and end up killing innocents.

        Every war we've ever fought has been this way, we just don't remember it because the last time we got bogged down enough to feel it was Vietnam.  

        There is no half-war, just like there is no half-pregnant.  Once it is on, it is on - and "it" is always ugly.  

        The only way to stop this shit is to stop the war.  How do we do that now?  I haven't a frigging clue...

        •  There's planning though (21+ / 0-)

          Soldiers fighting with adequate food, water, hygiene, equipment, and morale are going to fight a lot better than soldiers siphoning water out of a decrepit dam, fashioning makeshift battle armor, and watching well-supplied military contractors waltz off with 5 times their pay.

          Read James Loewen's "Sundown Towns"!

          by ChicagoDem on Thu Jun 01, 2006 at 08:54:22 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  This is how Lenin thought (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            lgmcp, Gorette

            and how he was able to get the Russians out of the first World War. It's just working class fighting working class so the capitalists can make big money. Only in Iraq it has been so open and blatant no one can miss it.

            We can use this war to ruin the cause of any war in the future. There is no reason to fight a war. And don't tell me HItler would have........ because we set him up for action wth the Treaty of Versailles. Without that botched up mess we would never have had Hitler.

            FUKUOKA: Part of my purpose is to create a society where no one has to do anything.PARACELSUS:So then, you wormy and lousy Sophist...

            by abbeysbooks on Thu Jun 01, 2006 at 10:24:09 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  You're wrong. (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Serendipity, Sychotic1

              There ARE reasons to fight wars.  Good reasons.  Our current regime has offered none of those good reasons for fighting in Iraq, but there are plenty of good reasons.  

              I am an Edwards Democrat.

              by ThirstyGator on Thu Jun 01, 2006 at 10:58:59 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  I love part of your statement but also disagree. (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              lgmcp

              This is what I love:

              We can use this war to ruin the cause of any war in the future.

              But I disagree about no reason to fight any war at all because I don't believe you can simplify every single issue to conform to the paradigm you give.

              IT TOOK five years, the deaths of 4,100 US soldiers... to make Iraq safe for Exxon. ~ Derrick Z. Jackson

              by Gorette on Thu Jun 01, 2006 at 11:03:45 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  The Problem with War now (0+ / 0-)

                is that it is a dinosauer. We have weapons that do us no good because they completely destroy everything and leave it radioactive. Iraq is a radioactive nightmare for our military and the Iraquiis with the weapons we have used composed of depleted uranium. All of our military has had their gene pool tampered with and all of the Iraquiis. Babies born with malformations due to genetic damage are astronomically high. Both for our military and the Iraquiis.

                War can no longer win anything. It is a dead end evolutionary pastime of men and governments. There is nothing to get now. Just rubble and enraged terrorists. The solution lies elsewhere and the minds that have gotten us into this are not the minds that will enable a solution.

                FUKUOKA: Part of my purpose is to create a society where no one has to do anything.PARACELSUS:So then, you wormy and lousy Sophist...

                by abbeysbooks on Fri Jun 02, 2006 at 03:02:22 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  I'll agree with that in part (0+ / 0-)

              What if games are fun, but there's no way of knowing if Hitler would have risen or not.  What is true is that we can use this to help get rid of stupid, big money ordered wars that are only to help one segment of society and harm the rest. That much is very true.

              A learning experience is one of those things that says, 'You know that thing you just did? Don't do that.' Douglas Adams

              by dougymi on Thu Jun 01, 2006 at 11:11:32 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Dictators rise in times of dire uncertainty and (0+ / 0-)

                chaos. Saddam becomes understandable now in hindsight. A 1000 year old enmity among Kurds,Sunniis and Shities was not going to be held together under any other kind of government given the situation Iraq was in at the time. It was carved out by the British and the allies. Kuwait used to be part of the Old area called Iraq and when Iraq was made,Kuwait was made,and Iraq always considered Kuwait part of its country, and not the separate piece it was made by the Western powers.

                The dictator bit comes from the analysis of past history and there is no reason to think Hitler would have risen without those conditions. I remember as a child hearing his broadcasts to Germans over the radio. Even in German which I didn't understand,he sounded like a raving lunetic to me. And to all of Europe so they laughed at him the way we laughed at Dumya and couldn't take him seriously as we could not either. We greatly underestimated his capacity for destruction. Both Hitler and Dumya. There are so many parallels.

                The wealthy have always instigated the wars and fought them with the masses. Until the masses get this in their bones,they will dupe them for more centuries. Marx had it right on this one.

                FUKUOKA: Part of my purpose is to create a society where no one has to do anything.PARACELSUS:So then, you wormy and lousy Sophist...

                by abbeysbooks on Fri Jun 02, 2006 at 03:11:38 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  We live in history (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Finn Arbor

              And don't tell me HItler would have........ because we set him up for action wth the Treaty of Versailles. Without that botched up mess we would never have had Hitler.

              And Versailles was shitty because France wanted blood after it had been ground zero after WWI.  And WWI had its causes in imperial expansion.  And on and on.  The reason we fight wars is because we can't ever just remove ourselves from history.  Even when we try, there will always be others holding grudges (whether real or imagined).  Particularly for a big, rich nation like ours where even when we're behaving well we leave a footprint.  Let alone when we're behaving badly.

              The geopolitical idiocy of the last 6 years has created a ton of new enemies for the United States, just as the idiocy of the Cold War did.  The sad thing is that, for those of us who are young enough to see all of these warped seeds germinate, we're probably going to have to use war and violence to counter those enemies too.  It's nearly impossible to unilaterally disarm.

              Read James Loewen's "Sundown Towns"!

              by ChicagoDem on Thu Jun 01, 2006 at 12:04:26 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  'We' did not set up Germany in Versailles (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                ChicagoDem

                Wilson was appalled at what Lloyd George and Clemenceau were up to. We were just not able to deter them.

                But there's no telling to what degree Germany's embrace of Hitler was due to its inflation and how much due to its humiliation in war.

                You got no fear of the underdog. That's why you will not survive. - Spoon

                by brainiacamor on Thu Jun 01, 2006 at 12:46:25 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Read Leslie Fiedler's account of Versailles in (0+ / 0-)

                  his book of essays. The American diplomats all brought their wives with them and they wanted to see Paris. The men did not want their wives seeing disturbing things in Paris (read sex stuff)without being chaperoned so they squired their wives around the town instead of tending to business.

                  Yes,Clemenceau did want blood and of course that makes their quick surrender in World War II understandable. But Clemenceau was known as The Fox and he was an experienced politician. Lloyd George sided in with him as he got seduced. And Wilson was over his head (The Peter Principle) when he was president of Princeton,let along the US. He simply was no match at all for these sophisticated Europeans. Since we were considered the hero at the time,Wilson could have had anything he wanted if he had just known how to go about getting it. Think JFK as opposed to Dumya in the same situation.

                  Wilson was a good man but totally ineffective.

                  Germany's humiliation,its inflation (a wheelbarrow of paper fiat for a loaf of bread story) and its starving population was the total reason. At that time people were practicing cannabalism incognito,it was so bad. Read Isherwood's Berlin Stories.

                  FUKUOKA: Part of my purpose is to create a society where no one has to do anything.PARACELSUS:So then, you wormy and lousy Sophist...

                  by abbeysbooks on Fri Jun 02, 2006 at 02:53:09 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

        •  leave? (5+ / 0-)

          Seems like the obvious answer to me.  

          Don't drink and blog. Think of the children.

          by RickD on Thu Jun 01, 2006 at 09:38:03 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  No, (45+ / 0-)

        War is war and hell is hell and of the two war is a lot worse

         Hawkeye Pierce to Father Mulcahy, on the TV program M.A.S.H.  (or at least that's where I heard it).  the rest of the conversation if your interested:

        Father Mulcahy: "Why do you say that, Hawkeye?"
        Hawkeye: "Simple, Father. Tell me, who goes to Hell?"
        Father Mulcahy: "Sinners, I believe."
        Hawkeye: "Exactly. There are no innocent bystanders in Hell. War is full of them."

        The longer in combat, the more primal they will become, the more hardened, the command structure begins to go.  Sounds like the base setup sucks, so they improvise because it's easier.  I suppose we could always give Halliburton a few more billions to fix the place up  /snark.

        •  Great reference. Go Hawkeye. (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          bawbie, bustacap, trinityfly

          and Hard to Port.  

          The more things change, the more they stay the same. Deja vu all over again.  As it is now, so it ever was. Those who ignore history ...

          "The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function." -- Edward Teller

          by lgmcp on Thu Jun 01, 2006 at 08:54:05 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Neo-cons need enemies, use war to grow new ones (7+ / 0-)

        The whole imperial presidency thing falls apart without enemies. In wartime, a small group in control can hand fat contracts to its friends and relatives, use counterintelligence methods against political opponents, and cover their tracks with 'national security' arguments.

        In peacetime, people would demand accoutability and transparency. Even conservatives would have some nostalgia for the rule of law, without a healthy stream of new enemies.

        What if Iraq ended in three weeks with flower-strewn parades? What if Iran, Syria and North Korea saw how reasonable we were. What if they all decided to cooperate with us on most issues, but kept on trading oil and natural gas as it best suited each of them and their immediate neighbors? Where would that leave Cheney?

        So, Bush and Cheney need enemies. How do we make more enemies? By starting a few wars, and fighting each one very badly.

        Why is there a Confederate Flag flying in Afghanistan?

        by chimpy on Thu Jun 01, 2006 at 09:02:47 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Every in group needs an out group. (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          chimpy, lgmcp

          Watch it in the schoolyard. It begins there if not at home with the family scapegoat.

          FUKUOKA: Part of my purpose is to create a society where no one has to do anything.PARACELSUS:So then, you wormy and lousy Sophist...

          by abbeysbooks on Thu Jun 01, 2006 at 10:26:00 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  There is an unholy marriage between (5+ / 0-)

          the Congress and the military -- the very one Ike warned about.  Without the Cold War fear-mongering to justify their corporations, the merchants of war have to make new ones.

          It is their business.  Right now the US government pays over $450 BILLION dollars annually to that war machine.

          It is a hungry beast.  It eats young men and women.

          Je suis inondé de déesses

          by Marc in KS on Thu Jun 01, 2006 at 10:26:33 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  This comes to mind (10+ / 0-)

        It's impossible to keep track of all the inane, dishonest things Bush has said in his political life, but I hope this one will not be forgotten:

        "I've been to war. I've raised twins. If I had a
        choice, I'd rather go to war."

    •  Exactly (6+ / 0-)

      intollerable, inhuman conditions, asked to commit acks against human nature, immoral leadership...