Daily Kos

The Paradox of Idiocy: Wingers 'expose' Qana photos as staged

Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 02:52:54 PM PDT

Between my orchard and flower bed sits an overgrown thicket of scrub and poison ivy. Years ago, you could occasionally venture in to pick a few mediocre grapes growing in a tangle there. But it's become an outright nuisance in what ought to be a central part of our landscape. Only a colossal effort could make it productive again.

So too the territory occupied by right wingers in the U.S. If they've anything valuable to say, you couldn't discover it midst the chaotic and noxious weeds of their minds. And the bombs raining down in Lebanon have just watered the gardens of the superpatriots' hatred.

A perfect specimen is an absurd little weed that the true-believers rushed to cultivate when it first popped up the other day. After a British blogger managed to convince himself that wire service photos from Qana had been staged, wingers in the U.S. competed to embellish the baseless accusation. And though the AP published an article rebutting the charge, fevered minds on the right are having none of it.

Here is really all that you need to know about the Bush partisans. Mere facts stand little chance against their cherished fictions. Bile points the way toward 'truth'. Any inconvenient news can be chalked up to a corrupt media. The enemies of Oceania are expert propagandists. Nothing can be the matter with any of Bush & Co.'s wars. The right wingers' ability to uncover the various reasons why that is so, day after day, when leftists meekly accept biased news coverage, reveals their own deeper intellectual powers.

It's the paradox of idiocy. The idiot treats his own misinformed foolishness as a mark of distinction, the height of sophistication. The refusal to see sense is a natural corollary of the inability to see it.

The facts are easily explained. On July 31, a rather badly misinformed superpatriot in Britain, Richard North, wrote that the photos taken of the rescue efforts at Qana by Reuters, Associated Press, and AFP photographers had been staged. He claimed, improbably, that bodies extracted from the bombed building had been manipulated by rescuers in order to create propaganda for Hizbollah, and that the photographers had gone along with the fiction; that the bodies were paraded around again and again by various rescuers; that they were loaded in ambulances, unloaded and then loaded again; that the rescuers amplified and exaggerated the physical damage to the bodies for the cameras.

It's more than simply a charge of unethical behavior; the alleged perpetrators probably would have committed crimes in desecrating these bodies. North is unhappy that the Qana bombing turned into a PR disaster for Israel, and evidently he's willing to create a lot of collateral damage in order to carry his point.

But what is his evidence for the charge? Essentially this: that the time stamps on the photos published on line are all over the map. For example, a photo of a child's corpse lying inside an ambulance has a time stamp that predates by several hours the stamp on a photo of the same body being lifted into the ambulance. According to North, this is proof that the photographers staged these photos for purposes of propaganda.

If you were the sort of person who listens to Rush Limbaugh, you'd know that he trampled all over this 'story' on the day North posted it.

If we don't start really kicking butt in this war, including not just allowing, but in fact urging Israel to viciously attack this enemy, we're going to end up losing it, and then it's going to take something worse than this to wake everybody back up, and I'm afraid that's going to be a nuclear weapon in the hands of an Islamofascist group.
...

The truth of what happened at Qana has been as distorted as what has happened and did happen in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina. It's almost identical. The Media is proving that they are incapable of accurately covering a war now, perhaps because they don't want to. You'll see what I mean when you take a look at this website. It's eureferendum.blogspot. When you see this photo display, this guy has gone through a lot of work to show how the Hezbos are milking this, parading their own dead in front of the cameras, posing them at different times, taking them in and out of ambulances, covering them with dust, holding them for hours on end, and these are still photographers taking the pictures, obviously, and these photographers are obviously willing to participate in propaganda. They know exactly what's being done, all these photos, bringing the bodies out of the rubble, posing them for the cameras, it's all staged.

Every bit of it is staged and the still photographers know it. Yet they send these pictures out without saying all of this is being staged for us. They send these pictures out as though they are in a timeline of an exact sequence, which they are not, which you will see when you read it. So the point is, Israel is probably not even killing all these civilians....

The photographs are grisly. They are quite disturbing. I should warn you about that before you go see them, but you have to see how the PR and the spin war is being managed and how our Drive-By Media and the rest of the world media is just falling for it hook, line, and sinker because it's their action line. Action line is, Bush is wrong, Israel sucks, Rice is bad, Bolton's bad, gotta get rid of Rumsfeld and all these people, Bush is horrible, Israel's horrible. In fact, Israel may have replaced Bush now in terms of being the primary target of the Drive-By Media. Bush will get it back. But they're covering Israel in this war the way they've covered Bush in practically everything since he was inaugurated back in 2001.

I can't understand any of Limbaugh's premises, beginning with the assumption that bombing Lebanon is 'our' war, or his conclusions, for example the business about nuclear weapons ending up in some ill-defined group's hands. But never mind, let this selection of his blatherings stand as a warning that the man is an idiot.

Meanwhile, most of the other fatheads on the right were huffing and puffing this story up. If you were that sort of person, you could check out the oeuvre of Michelle Malkin to get a sense of how much play the nuts were giving an allegation that, say what you will, involved neither Dan Rather nor kerning.

The larger problem was that it was untrue. The Associated Press went so far as to publish an article on Aug. 1 demolishing the allegations.

Three news agencies on Tuesday rejected challenges to the veracity of photographs of bodies taken in the aftermath of an Israeli airstrike in Lebanon, strongly denying that the images were staged.

Photographers from The Associated Press, Reuters and Agence France-Presse all covered rescue operations Sunday in Qana, where 56 Lebanese were killed. Many of their photos depicted rescue workers carrying dead children.

A British Web site, the EU Referendum blog, built an argument that chicanery may have been involved by citing time stamps that went with captions of the photographs.

Given how much trouble we had to go to last summer just to get the AP to report about a real and significant story, the Downing Street Memo, it's a sign of progress I suppose that they're now issuing immediate reports on hare-brained blog posts about, well, nothing at all.

In this case, the nothing was concocted by Richard North out of his confusion between published time stamps, which reflect the time when a photo is posted on line, and the camera's own time meter. Had he or any of his frenzied American readers taken the slightest trouble to inquire about the extremely basic question of how wire service time stamps function, the entire 'story' would have collapsed in upon itself.

But since they didn't bother, they weren't about to allow a trivial matter of fact get in the way of the conspiracy theory. North himself, who has been writing obsessively about inconsequential aspects of the dress and location of rescuers in these pictures, finally tried to bolster his mistake by denouncing the AP, earning a rebuke from the Guardian blogger Roy Greenslade

More to the point, the American superpatriots leapt upon the AP story and tore flesh. True to form, Malkin kept up her unsteady drumbeat in the face of facts.  Little Green Goofballs expressed the opinion that the AP rebuttal was actually the first crack in the façade; then an update demanded that the wire services release info about the time when each photo was taken; then a second update announced that the time stamps don't really matter because North's (inconsequential) observations carry the day anyhow. That was followed by this surreal post showing, I suppose, that AP outlandishly refuses to admit its reporters have been exposed as frauds by the fighting keyboardists.

You'll look in vain for any admission at these sites that many innocents died a horrible death as a result of the bombings, the photographic evidence of which the wingers are pawing over, looking for any weakness. In this world view, death is an act of terrorism; it must be defeated, at any cost.

One of the great ironies is that, for all their confidence in their own mental acuity, the Republican superpatriots (but I'm repeating myself) put their minds in a blind trust when Bush was elected. All the evidence suggests that, for many of the Bush partisans, there won't be much value in retrieving them after 2008.

Crossposted at Unbossed and at Inconvenient News.

Tags: Qana, Richard North, AP, propaganda, Lebanon, Rush Limbaugh, Michelle Malkin, Little Green Footballs, Recommended (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 220 comments

  •  I suppose... (14+ / 0-)

    I suppose they also believe the Holocaust didn't happen, and have proof?

    •  These poeple... (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      citizen92

      Probably have a theory about that as well.  Of course they deny the Holocaust - it doesn't fit in with their world paradigm.  Good God - did we just invoke Godwin?

      'Part of what makes America so beautiful is that there is no such thing as someone who looks like an American' - Barack Obama

      by RichM on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 04:09:46 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Did I read (0+ / 0-)

      "Hesbos"?

      ????

      •  Hezbos (0+ / 0-)

        It's yet another juvenile Limbaugh coinage, like feminazi.
        The great thing about the diarist is that he's keeping an eye on winger world and its memes, something we should all be doing.
        We should understand the enemy's propaganda machine better than they do. And by enemy I mean the rightwing.

        "Superstition, idolatry, and hypocrisy have ample wages, but truth goes begging." - Luther

        by Cartoon Messiah on Fri Aug 04, 2006 at 04:54:21 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  CNN repoting Human Rights watch disputes... (0+ / 0-)

      the original casualty reports from Qana.

      Here's the link:

      http://www.cnn.com/...

      Lebanese reports stated that at least 54 people died and at least 34 were children.  

      From the story:

      Human Rights Watch said its lower death toll was based on a registry of 63 people who had sought shelter in the basement of the building that was struck. Rescue teams at the time had located nine survivors.

      The group's preliminary investigation found at        least 22 people escaped, and 28 are confirmed dead.

      "Thirteen people remain missing, and some Qana residents fear they are buried in the rubble, although recovery efforts have stopped," the group's report said.

      Human Rights Watch also said that 16 of the dead were children.

      Before I get flamed again, I am not saying that killing 16 children is OK or even that it is better than killing at least 34.  I am saying that maybe jumping the gun and believing everything that comes out of Lebanon is a bad idea.  For all I know, the Human Rights Watch people could be wrong, but they are the only ones investigating this tragedy who appear not to have an agenda.

      January 4, 2007- It's a great day to be an American!

      by jah4168 on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 10:10:47 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  There are a number of groups in Lebanon (0+ / 0-)

      WHo are not only blaming Hezbollah for Qana, but are stating that Hezbollah allowed it to happen for political purposes.

      If you can read French:

      à Cana, les négociations Liban - Israel reportées

      30 Juillet 2006 -

      Le Liban s’est réveillé sur un nouveau massacre d’innocents, les victimes sont des enfants handicapés qui étaient réfugiés dans un immeuble qui a été attaqué par l’aviation israélienne

      Cana encore, un symbole, « les raisins de la colère » en 1996 avaient échoué à cause de cette bavure.
      40 ou peut être 50 tués aujourd’hui à Cana dans le Sud Liban. L’Horreur.

      Mais pourquoi une bavure pareille, une erreur ? Un massacre prémédité ? Une source généralement bien informée nous raconte sa version :
      « Le Hezbollah, coincé par les 7 points proposés par le premier ministre Fouad Siniora, qui mettait un plan de déploiement de l’armée libanaise sur tout le territoire et essentiellement au Sud Liban, et donc le désarmement de la milice du parti de Dieu, a voulu faire échouer ces négociations. Il a mis en pace un plan machiavélique en créant un événement qui lui permettrait d’annuler ce projet. Sachant très bien qu’Israël n’aura pas d’état d’âme pour bombarder des cibles civiles, des militants du Hezbollah ont installé une base de lancement de roquettes sur le toit d’un immeuble à Cana et y ont entassé des enfants infirmes dans la ferme intention de voir une réplique de la part de l’aviation israélienne et créer une nouvelle situation, utilisant le massacre de ces innocents pour reprendre l’initiative des négociations. »
      Ajoutant : « ils ont utilise Cana qui a déjà été un symbole d’un massacre d’innocents, ils ont fomenté un Cana 2 »...

      Mais pourquoi une bavure pareille, une erreur ? Un massacre prémédité ? Une source généralement bien informée nous raconte sa version :
      « Le Hezbollah, coincé par les 7 points proposés par le premier ministre Fouad Siniora, qui mettait un plan de déploiement de l’armée libanaise sur tout le territoire et essentiellement au Sud Liban, et donc le désarmement de la milice du parti de Dieu
      , a voulu faire échouer ces négociations. Il a mis en pace un plan machiavélique en créant un événement qui lui permettrait d’annuler ce projet. Sachant très bien qu’Israël n’aura pas d’état d’âme pour bombarder des cibles civiles, des militants du Hezbollah ont installé une base de lancement de roquettes sur le toit d’un immeuble à Cana et y ont entassé des enfants infirmes dans la ferme intention de voir une réplique de la part de l’aviation israélienne et créer une nouvelle situation, utilisant le massacre de ces innocents pour reprendre l’initiative des négociations. »
      Ajoutant : « ils ont utilise Cana qui a déjà été un symbole d’un massacre d’innocents, ils ont fomenté un Cana 2 ».

      http://www.libanoscopie.com/...

      As I have said in the past, there are MANY Christians in Lebanon who are jumping for joy at the Israeli invasion, because the Lebanese Christians, once a major political force in Lebanon, consituting 49 percent of the population, the largest Christian population in the Middle East, have been brutally supressed by Hezbollah. Having fled the massive slaughter at the hands of Palestinians, most Lebanese who wished to return when the civil war ended were prevented from doing so by legislation passed by Hezbollah and other pro-Syrian groups. If the Christians returned, they would constitute a very large non Muslim group. The Christians tended to be far more united politically than the Muslims and so in essence before the civil war they were the single largest power bloc.

      Now they live in fear of the Muslims majority.

      In essence the portion that I put in bold states that Hezbollah itself created the impression allowing Israel to believe that this  building was was a major missile cache, and that large numbers of Hezbollah fighters were hiding in the building surrounding this one.

      This was to create such outrage that opposition to Prime Minister Siniora's 7 point plan would vanish, because that plan called for DISARNMING HEZBOLLAH and sending the Lebanese Army to the Southern Border to help mop up the Hezbollah presence there.

      Other sources, also indicate that Israel got this information from human intelligence..  I.E. Lebanese villagers who had reliably told them of other, small Hezbollah positions in the prior days..some Lebanese do NOT support Hezbollah and view the quickest path to peace as getting rid of Hezbollah.

      Unfortunately there is talk that the intelligence that stated Qana was a major weapons cache may have come from Hezbollah itself. The earlier "correct intelligence" is thought to have been making willing sacrifice of small groups in order so et Israel up for a very large public relations blunder to destroy any efforts at a peace that required the dismantling of Hezbollah.

      Or that is the view of a number of Christian Lebanese inside of Lebanon.

      There are parts of this report in which the Lebanese state that they "have it from reliable sources" that Hezbollah placed disabled children in the cellar of that building. Then they placed a rocket launcher on the roof.

      It also states that Qana was chosn for maximum PR value due to the 1996 bombing there.

      There has not been much love lost between Hezbollah and the Christian Lebanese, but at least there are more sources than Israel stating that there was reason to beleive that the site was a major Hezbollah operation.

      Noting the tendency of the Party of God to suicide bombing and also their philosophy that it an innocent  Muslim is killed in one of their operations they will go to heaven anyone, so its no big loss for them.

      This in itself is totally consistant with Hezbollahs actions in the past. They are willing to commit suicide to kill those they deem enemies and they are willing to kill innocent Muslim bystanders at the same time because of their religious beleifs.

      There are many other inconsistancies with the local story of the attacks.

      They claim that the building collapsed immediately, but when rescue operation made it to the city early the next morning, they noted that no effort were made to rescue anyone under the rubble, claiming that "conditions" (night) prevented them from trying.

      A number of local stories are also very self contradictory.

      Anyway, if you can read Frenh give the entire article a whirl.

  •  Great diary. (7+ / 0-)

    Where's your tip jar?

    So, why do we hate Obama today?

    by TheBlaz on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 02:49:05 PM PDT

  •  What's the paradox? (0+ / 0-)

    Delusions aren't paradoxical.

  •  Damn (19+ / 0-)

    I once photographed a sunset with the date stamp 1.1.90 07:14:34am.

    Perhaps it was a sunrise.

    January 20. 2009 cannot come soon enough.

    by Crisis Corps Volunteer on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 02:54:15 PM PDT

    •  It was staged by Noon (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      smintheus, corvo, Albatross

      in a desperate attempt to halt the turning of the Earth with people's opinions...

      Seriously, wtf is wrong with these people. OMFG. I guess staying in the Bush camp at this point requires ever further wandering into fogs of delusion? And a mega, meta-delusion like this is just more exercise they unconsciously know they need to keep their worldview from cracking, and letting daylight in?

      This staged-photography crap is so blatant and pathetic, and it's all they can come up with right now. This actually may be a silver lining in the cloud. This could be the last gasp of their delusion that everything conservative is right.

      "Think. It ain't illegal yet." - George Clinton

      by jbeach on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 04:19:14 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  and the final layer of insanity (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        corvo, kidneystones

        as I tried to convey in the quotation from the Rushy One, is the assumption that killing Lebanese civilians is or should be part of our war plan. What the heck is that all about? Why can't Israel be allowed to take the blame for that fiasco? The Dear Leader is implicated only indirectly in the bombing campaign in Lebanon, yet they rush to man the barricades over something as indefensible as this?

        Fwiw, I did encounter a few wingers who mentioned Richard North's conspiracy theory only to reject it.

        •  It is just so crazy (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          smintheus

          that I would expect some conservatives to reject, and I am gratified to hear that.

          Yeah, somehow Israel's war is our war? And Lebanon has to be destroyed in order to save it?

          I think they're so desperate and defensive, 'cause Israel is taking the same tack with Lebanon as Bush did towards Iraq. And with the same rationale, to stop a terrorist organization.

          And it looks Israel's efforts are going to have the same results, too: skyrocketing Hezbollah's popularity and staining Israel's honor. Just like we made Al Qaeda popular in the Middle East, staining our own honor.

          So I think this conservative delusion of Qana propaganda, is the desperation of people who are becoming aware that they're on the wrong side of things, and are desperately afraid of being found out. And the irony is that they will dig themselves deeper and deeper into delusion, in trying to avoid having their worldview revealed as deluded.

          "Think. It ain't illegal yet." - George Clinton

          by jbeach on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 05:05:06 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  I watched Malking being chided by (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          smintheus

          O'Reilly. She's an absolute nutter.

          Great diary.
          •  was she talking on air about this? (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            kidneystones
            •  Crooks and Liars (link) (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              smintheus

              has it here

              The lead is misleading. Bill tries to shut her up but she ignores him. Can you believe it?

              Normally C&L sets the stage nicely, but in this case they focus on Michelle's general hysteria, rather than the "staged" killings at Qana.

              Chilling footage.

              •  do you happen to know the date? (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                kidneystones

                IOW, was Malkin repeating this after AP shot it down yesterday?

                Thanks for the link, but I've got dialup at home so I think I'll skip the download pain.

              •  Malkin 'Qana may have been staged' (link) (2+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                smintheus, tinaFER

                Malkin Too Out There for the O'Reilly Factor, (July 31st.)

                Bill opened by comparing the civilian deaths in Lebanon to Abu Ghuraib, crimes that greviously injured US and Israeli support around the world. Bill brings on Michelle to talk about double standards and instead gets Malkin's loony "war-crime denial". Bill tries to shut her up. Fat chance.

                MICHELLE MALKIN, FOX NEWS ANALYST: Well, I think that we have to frame what happened at Qana, Lebanon, the correct way...What happened there appears, appears to have been a tragic error by Israel, and I say "appears", because it seems to me not at all clear that the IDF is responsible for that building collapse, and people are looking very carefully at photos that looked staged. And you have to keep in mind...

                O'REILLY: But at this point, Michelle, it doesn't matter.

                MALKIN: Yes, of course it matters.

                O'REILLY: No, I'll tell you why it doesn't matter.

                MALKIN: Yes, of course it matters, of course it matters who's responsible for that.

                O'REILLY: No, it doesn't matter, because the Arab world and most of the other world, they're going to condemn Israel no matter what the facts are. And so it doesn't matter if there's an investigation that shows Hezbollah killed their own people. It doesn't matter. They're not going to believe it.

                But the overriding question for the United States, and Israel, is are civilian casualties, are they acceptable in fighting the war on terror?

                MALKIN: Well, first of all, the truth matters, Bill. And we have a responsibility, and we have the power to get the truth out there.

                Second of all, this was a forced error, if it was an error at all...

                What a pair of clowns.

                Read for yourself or watch, if you have the nerve.

  •  About all the other destruction.,,, (12+ / 0-)

    is it all staged, or possibly done by Hezbollah? Maybe the Israelis can bomb away and not cause any casaulties, their bombs only kill the "bad" guys.

    CHRISTIAN, n. One who believes that the New Testament is a divinely inspired book admirably suited to the spiritual needs of his neighbor. A. Bierce

    by irate on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 02:55:27 PM PDT

    •  I asked this on another thread (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      shpilk, bronte17

      Why did'nt Hezbollah build any civilian bomb shelters in South Lebanon?

      If you pick a fight with the regional superpower but don't include building civilian bomb shelters in your plan, then something ain't right. We all acknowledge how capable and smart Hezbollah is, so why no civilian bomb shelters?

      Even The Best Drummers Get Hungry

      by Keith Moon on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 03:44:33 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Guess you didn't like the answer (12+ / 0-)

        you got on that other thread, which, in essence, is:

        Why is Israel bombing civilians?

      •  I don't know. (0+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Petronella

        Maybe they did. A Katusha is like a big bottle rocket with a 60 lb warhead(designed in the 30's used extensively by the Russians in WWII) the Israeli munitions are much more substantial.

        CHRISTIAN, n. One who believes that the New Testament is a divinely inspired book admirably suited to the spiritual needs of his neighbor. A. Bierce

        by irate on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 04:00:04 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  *Sigh* I'll only say this once (12+ / 0-)

        Hezbollah is not Lebanon, nor is Lebanon Hizbollah.

        Lebanon, the country and it's governement (who a reasonable person might think would be responsible for building bomb shelters for their civilians) did not declare war on Israel. Lebanon is not fighting Israel. Hezbollah is. And while Hezbollah does have representation within the Lebanese government it is not on and of itself the Lebanese government or the Lebanese peop;le (39-40% of whom are neither Muslim nor Jew).

        One last time - Lebanon is not Hezbollah, Hezbollah is not Lebanon.

        Just as the United States of America is not the Republican Party, and the the Republican Party is not the United States.

        I'm sure you are very capable of making the distinction in the USA/Republican scenario. Learn how to make it in the Lebanon/Hezbollah scenario and maybe, just maybe, you'll stop sounding ridiculous.

        The Grasshopper Lies Heavy

        by FrankFrink on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 04:02:08 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  is this your (non) answer (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          jah4168, shpilk, bronte17

          as to why Hezbollah did'nt build civilian bomb shelters? After all, I hear so often how Hezbollah supply social services for the people, but that does'nt include building bomb shelters I guess.

          Even The Best Drummers Get Hungry

          by Keith Moon on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 04:07:37 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Don't you suppose that bomb shelters (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            corvo, RAZE

            might be much more effective against katusha rockets than against laser guided bunker busters? Really, seems like bomb shelters might be a good investment for a very rich nation-state facing a very minor threat. Not such a good use of resources (as opposed to building more hospitals, day care centers and schools) for an organization like Hezbollah.

            •  asdf (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              bronte17

              I don't know, how about Hezbollah buys a couple thousand fewer rockets than the 10,000+ they have, and invest in a few bomb shelters?

              Even The Best Drummers Get Hungry

              by Keith Moon on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 04:19:54 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Is that a good investment for them? (2+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                corvo, RAZE

                Given that the point of the rockets is to provide a deterrent for what they see as Israeli aggression as well as a political statement to the Arab masses that they aren't entirely powerless against Israel I think it is pretty hard to argue with their military strategy. Let's face it, there is no way they have the resources necessary to protect the civilian population from Israeli attacks. Your proposal that they build bomb shelters is just not serious.

                •  well Hez has fired (2+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  shpilk, Skidude

                  how many rockets. 2000? It  seems to me a couple thousand fewer than their current stockpile would'nt have hurt their deterrence one bit.

                  Like I stated originally, if you're going to pick a fight with the region's superpower, a few civilian bomb shelters seems like a good investment.

                  Even The Best Drummers Get Hungry

                  by Keith Moon on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 04:41:06 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I'm sure that Hezbollah (1+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    FireCrow

                    requested 1000 bomb shelters from Iran, but they proved to be very hard to ship.

                  •  So go run against Nasrallah for (2+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    corvo, RAZE

                    president of Hezbollah on the bomb-shelters-for-all platform.

                  •  are you positive (1+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    Petronella

                    the the Israelis were not inside Lebanon when Hizbollah captured those soldiers? Sure, the Israelis depicted themselves as innocent victims of "kidnapping". But they also portrayed Hamas as the aggressors a few weeks before - conveniently ignoring the rockets they'd earlier been firing into Gaza that killed some Palestinians. I see no reason to trust their highly selective versions of events, without independent proof.

                    You keep talking about Hizbollah picking a fight with Israel, but it's also perfectly possible to view this as a case of Israel picking a fight with Hizbollah.

                    •  it seems to me (1+ / 0-)

                      Recommended by:
                      shpilk

                      Hezbollah would be screaming that the Israeli soldiers were captured in Lebanon if that were the case and calling the Israeli reaction illegal and unjustified. Plus you'd be hearing this from all corners of the Arab world and media. I don't hear any of it.

                      Plus Hez has been sporadicly lobbing rockets into Israel for the past 6 years. I'd call that picking a fight.

                      Even The Best Drummers Get Hungry

                      by Keith Moon on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 05:13:11 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Israel was trying to crush the new govt. (0+ / 0-)

                        in Gaza, especially by various outlandish economic weapons that I'd describe as acts of war. Would you say that Israel was trying to pick a fight in Gaza?

                        The game of who started it doesn't really interest me, historian though I am, because as practiced it's just about finger pointing rather than about attempting to understand how and why the current situation came about.

                        As an ancient historian, I don't have two qualms about taking the string of charges and counter-charges back to the 19th century. Who do you suppose comes off looking like the interloper, when you go back that far?

                      •  what is your purpose here Keith? (3+ / 0-)

                        Recommended by:
                        smintheus, Petronella, RAZE

                        I've seen you in every single thread in the past few weeks that had anything to do with the conflict over there and you are constantly throwing out these ridiculous straw man issues as if the mean something. What is your point about not building bomb shelters?Why don't you just come out and say what the significance of that is to you?  You must have something else to add here or you wouldn't be so prolific, so spit it out, what's your point?

                        The trick is in what one emphasizes. We either make ourselves miserable, or we make ourselves happy. The amount of work is the same." Carlos Castaneda

                        by FireCrow on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 07:09:48 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                    •  this is so funny- a reverse conspiracy theory (0+ / 1-)

                      Hidden by:
                      smintheus

                      This is a diary complainingabout right wing conspiracy theories and dude drops the king of all made up comspiracy theories on us.  Thanks for showing us why the Kos Community is so much better then the right-wing blogs.

                      January 4, 2007- It's a great day to be an American!

                      by jah4168 on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 07:08:23 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  how is this a conspiracy theory? (1+ / 0-)

                        Recommended by:
                        RAZE

                        I've heard that there is a dispute among people with expertise in the area, about whether the initial Israeli reports were accurate when they claimed that their troops were inside Israel when two were captured by Hizbollah. I have no independent evidence to confirm or contradict the Israeli version of events, which is the one that virtually all US news organizations have disseminated.

                        I presume this is the "theory" you're snorting at. I don't see that it even constitutes a theory, much less as conspiracy theory.

                        Instead, it was couched as a question because it is a subject of dispute, and I supported the legitimacy of asking the question by reference to the very partial version of events the Israelis spread concerning how the fighting in Gaza began.

                        So, what exactly is your problem with that?

                        •  So his questions are legitimate... (0+ / 0-)

                          because they are Anti-Israel but mine make me a troll because they call into question Hezbollah.  Thanks for clearing that up for me.

                          January 4, 2007- It's a great day to be an American!

                          by jah4168 on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 10:52:54 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                  •  Let me die in my footsteps (0+ / 0-)

                    Before I go down under the ground.  There Kieth, B. Dylan has your answer.

                    In God we trust. All others must pay cash.

                    by yet another liberal on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 05:42:50 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  Interesting observation on why a country builds (1+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    smintheus

                    civilian bomb shelters, Keith Moon.

                    Like I stated originally, if you're going to pick a fight with the region's superpower, a few civilian bomb shelters seems like a good investment.

                    Is it because it is picking fights with its neighbors that Israel has prepared itself so well?

                    •  One unaddressed point... (1+ / 0-)

                      ..is that it looks like Israeli strategists may had intended to  reenter Lebanon to scour the place of Iranian and Syrian influence. Certainly the way teh war cheerleaders have been talking links this to plans made for  Syria, Iraq and Iran--it doesn't seem to be reactive on Israel's part. The whole sequence of events going back to 2002  looks systematic and deliberate.    

                      "It's a race to decide who the British goverment will follow blindly for the next 4 years" Kennedy/Kerry '08

                      by Salo on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 06:51:18 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

          •  Sorry that you don't like the answer. (5+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Bionic, corvo, RAZE, Albatross, callmecassandra

            I won't repeat it. I keep my promises.

            Hope you enjoy the (seemingly endless) whooshing sound hovering in the vicinty of your cranium. White noise can be your friend. Not mine, though.

            The Grasshopper Lies Heavy

            by FrankFrink on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 04:29:02 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  you still don't have an answer. (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              shpilk

              whose head is whooshing FF?

              Even The Best Drummers Get Hungry

              by Keith Moon on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 04:31:52 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  He is pulling your chain (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              smintheus, khereva
              Keith has no (and cannot possibly have any) conclusive evidence of Hizbullah not building any shelters for civilians or in some other way helping them prepare for the Israeli attacks. Please note that he skipped this inconvenient fact by going on the offensive with his "when did you stop beating your wife?", "you did not answer me, is she still blue and black?" type of "questions" and you, sadly, fell in his trap by trying to answer logically a question which is based on a dishonest presumption. I am in no way putting you down, but you gotta be on the lookout for clever manipulators like Keith who for some reason seem to be attracted to anything involving Middle East like flies to a corpse.  
          •  Just plain wyrde. (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            RAZE
            ...

            "It's a race to decide who the British goverment will follow blindly for the next 4 years" Kennedy/Kerry '08

            by Salo on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 06:45:48 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Hezbollah feeds off death from both sides (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            jah4168, daisycolorado

            They don't give a damn .. every dead, ijured or misplaced Lebanese civilian is a new recruitment opportunity to these bastards.

            That's why they fire their rockets from the top of apartment buildings, next to hospitals and schools.

            It's counterproductive for them protect the civilian population of Lebanon. They are counting on the IAF and IDF to kill the very civilians they hide behind, to continue this insanity.

            When are the people of Lebanon going to stand up and reject these monsters?

            "You know what the real fight is? The real fight is the definition of what is reality." Bernie Sanders

            by shpilk on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 06:56:27 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  well said (3+ / 1-)

              Recommended by:
              shpilk, daisycolorado, Skidude
              Hidden by:
              smintheus

              They parade these people in front of the camera to provoke the responses you see in this diary.  Hezbo propoganda really appears to work.  Hezbollah is a terrorist organization that is trying to build it's street cred in the Arab world and in the rest of the world.  People just want Israel to be randomly killing people and using white phosphorous because it plays into the narative.  

              January 4, 2007- It's a great day to be an American!

              by jah4168 on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 07:20:03 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  You really should wait. (0+ / 0-)

                My brother is ever so much larger and meatier than I.

                So long as men die, Liberty will never perish. -- Charlie Chaplin, "The Great Dictator"

                by khereva on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 07:46:43 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  if you're accusing people here (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                RAZE

                of wanting Israel to bomb civilians randomly and to use white phosphorus munitions against them, just to make PR problems for Israel, then it's a vile comment.

                I haven't given a troll rating in ages, but you really have been working hard to earn it on this thread.

                •  Nope (0+ / 0-)

                  Not even close.  I would hope that noone wants Israel to bomb civilians or use chemical munitions.  I am saying that you want to believe that is what is happening.  In fact, you just accept it.  All I am saying is you can't be sure of this any more then Rush can be sure of what he is saying.  I'll admit that I don't want those things to be true so I view them skeptically.  I just think that believing what you believe is similar to the things your diary is so viomently opposed to when the other side does it.  I prefer the middle ground of saying I am not sure what happened and I believe that Hezbollah does put out propoganda that makes your argument easier to make.

                  I am still not sure how that makes me a troll??

                  January 4, 2007- It's a great day to be an American!

                  by jah4168 on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 09:09:16 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  a distinction without a difference (0+ / 0-)

                    you're accusing people here of being vile. You've repeatedly leveled vague accusations against me for believing something or other, without spelling out exactly what my failings are. I think you're full of crap yourself.

                    •  You are the one accusing people of being vile (0+ / 0-)

                      Read your diary.  It clearly is accusing people of being vile.  I don't think you are the least bit vile.  In fact, I think you seem allright.  I was just hoping that rather than troll rate me and criticize my spelling you might think about what I have to say.  I don't expect you to agree with me, but I don't think that makes either of us vile.  I think it makes us 2 people who disagree on this one thing.  I bet we agree on far more then we disagree about.  I am off to Conn. after work tomorrow to try to help Lamont bring home this election.  When I get back, I am going to be working for some PA canidates closer to Philly to hopefully swing the House back to the Dems.  I just don't understand why disagreeing with you on this issue is so offensive.  I agree that it might not be a popular opinion, but I am clearly not calling you names or trying to demean you.  Pointing out that some things you say seem hypocritical (spelling?)  is not the same as saying you are a dupe.  I just thing that it seems only fair to give both sides of an issue a fair hearing .  Otherwise, we become a lot like LGF.  Dismissive of other viewpoints and rude.  that's not what I thought this site was about no matter how strong your beliefs on any one particular issue.

                      January 4, 2007- It's a great day to be an American!

                      by jah4168 on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 09:37:32 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

              •  Israel's got the wrong script. (0+ / 0-)

                People just want Israel to be randomly killing people and using white phosphorous because it plays into the narative.

                It ain't that people want Israel to be doing these things, it's that Israel is doing these things.

                The world would be much better off if Israel would walk the talk to a brand-new narrative. We'll catch on when we see changes.

      •  They need the civilian casualties. (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        jah4168

        It bolsters support for Hezbollah within Lebanon.  The Lebanese see Hezbollah as their only protection against Israel, so of course, they'll support Hezbollah, especially as loved ones die.

      •  Because Hez. don't care about Lebanese civilians (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        MrSandman, corvo, Albatross

        Just like Israel.

        See?

        After all, why should Hezbollah care? Hezbollah does not equal Lebanon. Therefore Hezbollah does not necessarily equate Lebanese civilians as being their own.

        Israel, however, either does equate all Lebanese, civilian or not, with Hezbollah - or, more likely and kind of worse, they just don't care about Lebanese civilian deaths at all. They're just like dogs that happen to be in the same field they're shooting in.

        Please, prove me wrong. I hate to feel this way about Israel, but the 10-1 Lebanese/Israeli civilan body count ratio is hard to take any other way.

        "Think. It ain't illegal yet." - George Clinton

        by jbeach on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 04:23:02 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Israel admits a 'mistake' (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          khereva

          according to a recent AP post

          JERUSALEM (AP) -- The Israeli military's inquiry on the bombing of a building in the south Lebanese village of Qana that killed 56 civilians admits a mistake but charges that Hezbollah guerrillas used civilians as human shields for their rocket attacks, a statement early Thursday said.

          Guess like Mel Gibson they'll ask for forgiveness from the affected parties.

          And admitting a "mistake" kinda quashes the whole faked photo issue.

          Try my dream: President Obama

          by MrSandman on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 05:32:27 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  actually, the way I look at it (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          jah4168

          when civilians die on either side, it's a win for Hezbollah .. they are deliberatley targeting Israeli civilians, and want to instill fear in the Israelis. That's obviuous .. they are causing damage to the target, so for them, it's a 'win'. A no brainer .. it's a win for Hezbollah {and Hamas operates similarly, as well.

          When Lebanese civilians die, are injured or are forced out their homes, Hezbollah wins again. Because this helps to form the pool of recruits, from surviving relatives, from those injured and misplaces. So, Hezbollah feeds off of the suffering of civilians.

          That's why Hezbollah, a military organization did NOT bother to build bomb shelters for the civilians. They don't want to protect civilians. They want them to die, on BOTH sides - just for different reasons.

          If Hezbollah really wanted to ensure civilians were not killed, the first choice would be to stop firing the rockets into Israel. They could make sure they are not co-located in civilian areas. They could make a choice to attack only Israeli military targets.

          But that's not happening, is it?

          "You know what the real fight is? The real fight is the definition of what is reality." Bernie Sanders

          by shpilk on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 06:53:03 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Hizbollah does have bomb shelters (4+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        smintheus, Albatross, Keith Moon

        But not for civilians to use.

        The "some are more equal than others" crosses all cultures it seems.

        Our... constitutional heritage rebels at the thought of giving government the power to control men's minds. Thurgood Marshall

        by bronte17 on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 04:25:18 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  That's Righ: Hezbollah must not have started it! (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        corvo

        Following your logic, it means Hezbollah was framed!

      •  unlike the regional power (0+ / 0-)

        they didn't receive any aid from the western block.

        Do not put such unlimited power into the hands of husbands. Remember all men would be tyrants if they could - Abigail Adams

        by tinaFER on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 06:44:12 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  What evidence? (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        smintheus
        Why did'nt Hezbollah build any civilian bomb shelters in South Lebanon?

        What evidence do you have that they did not? And if you do not have any, you are merely posting here as a troll to disrupt any discussion with straw-man arguments demanding that your oposition respond to these "when did you stop beating your wife" type of "questions".

        You made the accusation. Where is your conclusive evidence that Hisbullah did not build any shelters in Southern Lebanon for civilians?! Put up or shut up.

  •  Excellent diary... (21+ / 0-)

    Anyone who has ever stood in a press gallery with photo-hogs from The Associated Press, Reuters and AFP (as I have) knows that they would never cooperate on anything more complex than a choice of local watering hole following the event (if that).

    That they would agree (all three) to stage photos while they are risking their lives in a war zone... gah. Is there no start to common sense on the right?

    This guy North needs to be nominated for a Tin-Foil Hat Award.

    "Impeach the Cheerleader, save the world!"

    by deepfish on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 02:55:32 PM PDT

  •  Funniest part... (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    smintheus, Bionic, peraspera

    ...is the EUReferendum knucklehaed saying this: To engineer this massive intellectual feat, Bauder – who contacted this site asking us to ring him in New York at our own expense to answer his questions...

    Oh my gosh! He wants us to call NY at his own expense!

    These people must be ral pros.

  •  Read this: 'No Hezbollah Rockets Fired from Qana' (11+ / 0-)

      Inter Press Service News Agency
    Wednesday, August 02, 2006   17:54 GMT
    MIDEAST:
    ''No Hezbollah Rockets Fired from Qana'' - Dahr Jamail

    QANA, Aug 1 (IPS) - Red Cross workers and residents of Qana, where Israeli bombing killed at least 60 civilians, have told IPS that no Hezbollah rockets were launched from the city before the Israeli air strike.

    The Israeli military has said it bombed the building in which several people had taken shelter, more than half of them children, because the Army had faced rocket fire from Qana. The Israeli military has said that Hezbollah was therefore responsible for the deaths.

    "There were no Hezbollah rockets fired from here," 32-year-old Ali Abdel told IPS. "Anyone in this village will tell you this, because it is the truth"....

    and later in the long article:

    Lebanese Red Cross workers in the nearby coastal city of Tyre told IPS that there was no basis for Israeli claims that Hezbollah had launched rockets from Qana.

    "We found no evidence of Hezbollah fighters in Qana," Kassem Shaulan, a 28-year-old medic and training manager for the Red Cross in Tyre told IPS at their headquarters. "When we rescue people or recover bodies from villages, we usually see rocket launchers or Hezbollah fighters if they are there, but in Qana I can say that the village was 100 percent clear of either of those."

    Another Red Cross worker, 32-year-old Mohammad Zatar, told IPS that "we can tell when Hezbollah has been firing rockets from certain areas, because all of the people run away, on foot if they have to."

    also check out Salon.com  :

    "Hiding behind civilians" rhetoric is a "myth."
    An article by Mitch Prothero in Salon  takes on the familiar excuse of "hiding behind civilians" being proffered by Israel and the USA and concludes that it is a "myth."

    Throughout this now 16-day-old war, Israeli planes high above civilian areas make decisions on what to bomb. They send huge bombs capable of killing things for hundreds of meters around their targets, and then blame the inevitable civilian deaths -- the Lebanese government says 600 civilians have been killed so far -- on "terrorists" who callously use the civilian infrastructure for protection.

    But this claim is almost always false. My own reporting and that of other journalists reveals that in fact Hezbollah fighters -- as opposed to the much more numerous Hezbollah political members, and the vastly more numerous Hezbollah sympathizers -- avoid civilians. Much smarter and better trained than the PLO and Hamas fighters, they know that if they mingle with civilians, they will sooner or later be betrayed by collaborators -- as so many Palestinian militants have been.

    So the analysts talking on cable news about Hezbollah "hiding within the civilian population" clearly have spent little time if any in the south Lebanon war zone and don't know what they're talking about. Hezbollah doesn't trust the civilian population and has worked very hard to evacuate as much of it as possible from the battlefield. And this is why they fight so well -- with no one to spy on them, they have lots of chances to take the Israel Defense Forces by surprise, as they have by continuing to fire rockets and punish every Israeli ground incursion...