Daily Kos

Okay, So Now It's a Civil War. What's Next?

Sun Aug 20, 2006 at 10:49:42 AM PDT

An important shift in the media narrative has taken place this week. Whether it's Andrea Mitchell or Chuck Hagel, or this long article in the WaPo by Daniel L. Byman and Kenneth M. Pollack, the new CW is that Iraq is in the midst of a civil war. Tell me about it. We wrote about the Iraqi civil war six months ago, maybe even before, but only now are the oh-so-sophisticated DC Kewl Kidz catching on. But it's an important milestone, because mention of civil war runs the risk of making American voter support, what's left of it, plummet. We're there to prevent and mitigate a civil war. If it's already happening, buh-bye.

In any case, defining "buh-bye" is important. Cheney and Co. would have you believe that to all Democrats that means leave immediately. He's trying to push that line with Ned Lamont, but it's hard to paint CT suburbanites as angry leftists when they're/we're really irate moderates. The prospect of "Iraqi civil war" as the narrative makes that even less likely to work.

The Byman/Pollack piece starts an important discussion.

The debate is over: By any definition, Iraq is in a state of civil war. Indeed, the only thing standing between Iraq and a descent into total Bosnia-like devastation is 135,000 U.S. troops -- and even they are merely slowing the fall. The internecine conflict could easily spiral into one that threatens not only Iraq but also its neighbors throughout the oil-rich Persian Gulf region with instability, turmoil and war.

The consequences of an all-out civil war in Iraq could be dire. Considering the experiences of recent such conflicts, hundreds of thousands of people may die. Refugees and displaced people could number in the millions. And with Iraqi insurgents, militias and organized crime rings wreaking havoc on Iraq's oil infrastructure, a full-scale civil war could send global oil prices soaring even higher.

Along with suggested remedies for mitigation of spillover, there is a call for Washington to get more serious than making speeches about Ned Lamont (who is not running for either President or Senator from the United States).

With an all-out civil war looming in Iraq, Washington must decide how to deal with the most common and dangerous ways such conflicts spill across national boundaries. Only by understanding the refugee crises, terrorism, radicalization of neighboring populations, copycat secessions and foreign interventions that such wars frequently spark can we begin to plan for how to cope with them in the months and years ahead.

A nice companion piece to this is When the Shiites Rise from Foreign Affairs. Written by Vali Nasr, here's the summary:

By toppling Saddam Hussein, the Bush administration has liberated and empowered Iraq's Shiite majority and has helped launch a broad Shiite revival that will upset the sectarian balance in Iraq and the Middle East for years to come. This development is rattling some Sunni Arab governments, but for Washington, it could be a chance to build bridges with the region's Shiites, especially in Iran.

There's a lot here to digest, and not all the suggestions make complete sense, nor is the Bush WH likely to do anything competently in any case. But the discussion of what to do after November about Iraq has got to start happening. Here, therefore, is presented a starting point to get the ball rolling.

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Tags: Iraq, civil war, Shiite, war (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 172 comments

  •  next (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    wishingwell, Krum, vigilant meerkat

    thing is to keep hammering over and over again it is a civil war, we are sitting ducks and iraq and terrorism are NOT connected

    the message is seeping through -- 10 weeks more to make it deluge

    He may talk like an idiot, and look like an idiot, but don't let that fool you: he really is an idiot...Groucho Marx

    by distributorcap on Sun Aug 20, 2006 at 10:41:44 AM PDT

    •  Check this out (6+ / 0-)

      Boehner Q&A transcript

      House Majority Leader John Boehner, R-West Chester Township, sat down Friday for an exclusive hour-long interview with the (Cincinnati) Enquirer...

      Q. Are we abandoning Iraq in the face of a civil war?

      A. Nope. Nope. There is no civil war. I reject the notion of a civil war because there is no civil war. There is some sectarian violence. There’s no question about it. There’s also what I would call gang violence that people will wrap into a civil war but that’s just not the case.

      Q. How do we tell the difference? What is the definition between what has been called sectarian violence and a civil war?

      A. You’ve got religious leaders and sectarian leaders of all major religions working closely together. They all reject the notion of a civil war.

      Well, he certainly cleared that up, huh?  I guess that's the end of that debate.  No civil war here, people.  Just move along now.

    •  Civil war an exit strategy for Bush (0+ / 0-)

      Bush has said that he will not let our troops be caught in the middle of a civil war so while he's in seeming denial saying, "Civil war this, civil war that," Republicans are helping to ease the public into accepting this exit strategy as legitimate.

      Political timing is everything with Bush and this gives an excuse to begin a draw down, maybe even in the next few weeks.

      "It's hard to think straight when you have a crooked mind." ~ Snidely Whiplash

      by Bugsby on Sun Aug 20, 2006 at 02:18:13 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  It could be an exit strategy, but... (0+ / 0-)

        Bush would have to admit that its a civil war, which would also be an admission that he has screwed up badly. As in, made a mistake.

        You know he can't do that.

        The sleep of reason brings forth monsters. --Goya

        by MadScientist on Sun Aug 20, 2006 at 04:09:02 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  The best thing that could happen to Bush (0+ / 0-)

        is for Iraq to go to civil war and he ordering our troops home, as he has hinted at.  Bush blames the civil war on the insurgents that hate freedom and liberty and his 30%+ call it the word of/from god.  Bush picks up another 10% for getting our guys out of there and he comes out smelling like a rose.  You don't believe me?  Look at his history.  When has Bush ever had to pay a price for a life of fuckup's.  
        One more point:
        I'm not entirely sure a civil war in Iraq will spread to the rest of the region or will a civil war last long.  The Iraqis have been killing and dieing for some years now but not so long that they have forgotten quiet streets where they can send their kids to school and go to work with out fear of getting blown to hell.  If I'm right and the Iraqis get lucky, Bush declares victory (winds up in a sling with a broken arm from patting himself on the back) and picks up another 10 sympathy points.
        The next time we elect a president we need to check his resume first.

        Beer, politics & pizza - must have died and gone to heaven.

        by mrgardon on Sun Aug 20, 2006 at 08:35:20 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  And we might be watching it for 20-30 Friedmans (14+ / 0-)

      in the future.

      The situation is so ugly, and the amount of suffering it will cause is incalculable. And our government is responsible.

      Boggles. Completely boggles.

      •  yes you did. (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        knowthings

        that's the maybe even before I was too lazy to look up.

        We can argue about who first declared your prediction had come to pass. ;-)

        I'm not even sure that was earliest I said so.  

        "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

        by DemFromCT on Sun Aug 20, 2006 at 11:01:54 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Yeah, For Those of Us... (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          vcmvo2

          ...with open eyes and a little historical and regional knowledge, the warning signs have been easy to see.  For instance, there was also this piece I wrote almost 18 months ago.  You and MB and emptywheel and a whole slew of others have been on this for a long time.  This didn't come out of nowhere.

          The revolution will not be televised, but we'll analyze it to death at The Next Hurrah.

          by DHinMI on Sun Aug 20, 2006 at 11:05:50 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I predicted it in November of 2001 (0+ / 0-)

            the day Mazar el Sharif fell, I knew we would invade Iraq next. I knew we would fuck it up, and I knew we would lose

            you're seeing what I forsaw in November of 2001

            right down to the torture and murder

            is anybody aware of the flix "The Battle of Algeirs" ???

            all the clues you need are right there

            it's not all that hard to psychic with presnit bozo in charge

      •  Glad you saw it, but it's way older than that (4+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        coral, gbussey, naltikriti, DSPS owl

        The very real possibility of Iraq falling into a civil war, and thus destabalizing parts of adjacent nations, was a HUGE part of why Saddam was left in power by the first Bush presidency.

        •  Here's a crazy idea... (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          southernphilosopher

          Last week there was a wry LTE in the Oregonian suggesting that maybe we should let Saddam go back to doing what he does best. He's very possibly the only guy brutal enough to sort out this mess.

          "It's hard to think straight when you have a crooked mind." ~ Snidely Whiplash

          by Bugsby on Sun Aug 20, 2006 at 02:15:08 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  You are such a latecomer (3+ / 0-)

        Britain's David Lloyd George predicted there would be a civil war in Iraq back in 1920.

        •  There's been a few civil wars in Iraq since then (3+ / 0-)

          ... and so long as artificial boundaries glue these factions together who hate each other to the death, there will be no end to them.  

          (Well, unless one of the factions is allowed to brutally opress the others with the tacit permission of the U.S., like the Ba'ath did for almost 40 years.)

          It's not rocket science to see that this was going to happen.  What is shocking is that anyone thought 130,000 US Troops and an election would keep the lid on so much bad blood.

    •  FUBAR (4+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Lying eyes, sofia, naltikriti, DSPS owl

      Some of the most realistic thinking about how to salvage anything in Iraq has been done by the International Crisis Group. We had the privilege of interviewing Joost Hiltermann who is their on site guy in Amman in June. He thought the prospects awfully dire.

      What I took away from a visit to the region is that US policies are likely to create great waves of refugees in Jordan and Syria, further destablizing the already unstable. In June I didn't expect them to come from Lebanon -- apparently Syrians are currently rather pleased with themselves for offering hospitality to Lebanese in the last month. But these things get tired.

      The prospects for regionwide war abetted by our rulers are appalling.

      •  US action didn't create them (0+ / 0-)

        They just removed an obstacle to them.  These pressures have been building in earnest for 60 years and were simmering for a thousand years before that.

        Are you gonna blame Bosnia on the US because the collapse of eastern european communism facilitated it?

    •  Time For A Lumberjack Match (0+ / 0-)

      If our troops ain't gonna leave, we ought to just put a cordon sanitare around Iraq and let the knuckleheads beat each other senseless without outside interference.

      •  You obviously learned fewer lessons (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Nightprowlkitty

        from the current war than the Bush administration.

        If this thing follows its natural course, you think 135,000 troops stretched over  a thousand miles of border (guessing here, its big though) are gonna stop people from crossing?.

        •  You missed the IF (0+ / 0-)

          Here are the scenarios:

          A: We leave, Shiites get the upper hand, Saudis jump in, then Iran jumps in, While Turkey goes after them uppity Kurds. Hello WWIII!!!

          B: We stay in the cities putting out fires, everybody hates us as they kill each other willy nilly wherever we ain't., All the while unit cohesion and morale goes to shit even further.

          C: We go out to the perimeter and bar all traffic in and out of the country, so they either figure out if they want to kill each other or get their shit together.

          We got 135,000 troops and Iraq has a 1,700 mile border(guesstimate), that's 80 men a mile, damn near a company. If you can't shut that down for 6 months until they exhaust their capability to wage war on each other(or at least get them back to rock throwing and knife fights.) then we have no business calling it an Army.

          I don't see how that's "mildly genocidal" or even picking sides. It's self-determination of an extreme nature, but it might be the best way to fix this mess quickly.

          •  80 men in a mile? (0+ / 0-)

            Thanks for doing the first part of the math.  Now cut it by 1/4 or so for logistics (being super generous here, i don't know these actual numbers).  60.  Cut BY 1/3 again, assuming 8 hour shift, 7 days a week.  This is generous as well, doesn't account for leave, sick time, in/out rotations etc.  You're down to 20 a mile, enough to be constantly vulnerable to any attack anywhere, depending on the terrain.  

            This doesn't account for the fact that out of those 135,000 troops we're theoretically dedicating to protecting the border, a certain number need to be armor and artillery.

            PS a company is 150ish

            •  And the airports, supply routes to the front nt (0+ / 0-)

            •  cutting numbers to deep? (0+ / 0-)

              US doctrine describes a company as 3-4 platoons and 80 men can be 3 platoons(if small), damn near a company, which is the words I used. A majority of logistics are handled by private contractors, rotations aren't currently included for strength on the ground.

              But even conceding your numbers, 2 squads a mile with  should be sufficient to maintain a cordon sanitare , identify small groups of violators and knock them out or back. Armor, artillery and the other weapons system will act as a force multiplier in a way that being in the cities cannot.

              •  You didn't follow the rest of my comment (0+ / 0-)

                We're not including the number of people to guard the airport and convoys of supplies going to the troops from the airport either, or armor/artillery divisions to support the ground troops in case of a big fight over that spread out an area.  It's militarily impossible without at least 3x the number of troops we have there.

                •  You miss economies of scale (0+ / 0-)

                  The deeper you go on a micro scale, yes there's more to account for, but as you go up the macro scale there are economies of scale which you're not accounting for., and by spreading out the deployment it makes it harder for shitstirrers to be effective. If resupplying by plane in a random pattern, Opfor has a muchharder time knowing where to be at what time, and by hanging out @ fixed positions(because they can't determine drop schedules) makes identinfying that much easier.

                  •  You're clueless (0+ / 0-)

                    How can 20 (no more than 15 really) per mile around a border that big all be within range of fire support?

                    They can't, so a group of 50 masked insurgents could attack at any one point and inflict casualties.

                    Unless you have a ton of troops in artillery, armor, and rotating C-130s and A-10s.  And their support chains, much more cumbersome than an infantryman's.

                    •  Because they're spaced out? (0+ / 0-)

                      The M198 piece has an effective range of 14 miles, do you think enemy groups in the field are gonna be able to "sneak up" on units without being decimated? You need 120 pieces to cover the entire country. and logistic chains would service both units in radiating networks, not multiple redundcies.

                      And what's with the name calling?, I don't see any ideas coming from you.

      •  Gee, that's only mildly genocidal. (4+ / 0-)

        As an Iraqi-American academic born and raised in New Orleans, this voter is not pleased.

        by naltikriti on Sun Aug 20, 2006 at 12:25:42 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  How far into the most recent ... (0+ / 0-)

      "the next six months will tell the tale" are we at this point?

      Or have we already come out the back side - sort of like popping out on the other side of black hole?

      "That's hard to explain without using the phrase 'you gullible toad.'" Dilbert

      by gbussey on Sun Aug 20, 2006 at 01:35:08 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Is it in me, or is this statement soaking n irony (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    wozzle, lipris

    Along with suggested remedies for mitigation of spillover, there is a call for Washington to get more serious than making speeches about Ned Lamont (who is not running for either President or Senator from the United States).

    Oh, no! who would ever possibly be obsesses with the Connecticut Senate race instead of other more important matters.... cough

    •  It is definitely ironic (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Nightprowlkitty

      But for those that have policy matters of which to attend that are throwing their two cents in to save 'Lieberman the Republican Enabler', this is a crystal clear missive. For others who have reported on the multifaceted, continuing facets of the CT race, all the while supporting our other candidates, their local candidates and continuing to blog on everything from energy to education to the economy to foreign policy, this, IMHO, is no stain on their blue dress.

      The devolution will be reality show televised, commercialized and trivialized.

      by niteskolar on Sun Aug 20, 2006 at 10:52:22 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I wonder... (0+ / 0-)

    what specifically caused the narrative to change now?  Is it the underreported large increase in Iraqi casualties in the last couple of months?  

    Political compass: -5.50 econ, -5.79 libertarian/authoritarian

    by billlaurelMD on Sun Aug 20, 2006 at 10:45:30 AM PDT

    •  It is the truth coming out.... (0+ / 0-)

      The generals in charge of Iraq are admitting that the violence is getting worse, not better.

      "[T]the new assessments by the military and the intelligence community provide evidence that violence in Iraq is at its highest level yet. And they describe twin dangers facing the country: insurgent violence against Americans and Iraqi security forces, which has continued to increase since the killing on June 7 of Mr. Zarqawi, the leader of the insurgent group Al Qaeda in Mesopotamia, and the primarily sectarian violence seen in Iraqi-on-Iraqi attacks being aimed at civilians." http://www.nytimes.com/...

      So staying the course, objectively speaking, is clearly not helping, it is pissing off everyone in Iraq.  Furthermore, our presence has created a power vacuum that has allowed sectarian differences (previously kept in check by a brutal dictator) to explode.  The foreign fighters have exploited those differences to exacerbate tensions between the Sunnis and Shiites.

      These liberally biased facts simply cannot be hidden anymore.  There are no "good" stories to report from Iraq anymore (if ever there were any).  If I'm not mistaken, the U.S. has given up (or will soon give up) on the reconstruction.  Accordingly, the truth - civil war - is becoming impossible to bury.  

      "Dissent is the Highest form of Patriotism."  Tommy J.

      "Dissent is the Highest form of Patriotism." Tommy J.

      by Dissentinator on Sun Aug 20, 2006 at 11:13:19 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Important question (0+ / 0-)

      Over years of watching the media, I've come to believe that it can take an enormous accumulation of evidence that breaks the existing false narrative before a shift happens. The press has to get beat over the head by reality when they are wedded to fantasy.

      I've never been entirely clear why it was so vital to the Bushies and their enablers to insist that what was going on in Iraq was NOT a civil war. Couldn't the USofA still act as heroic savior, even if the natives were so ill-tempered as to fight each other? That's a crazy narrative I have not yet seen floated, though with this shift we may.

      When we were in the region in June, nobody was dealing with reality inside the US media frames.

    •  Maybe someone in the administration (0+ / 0-)

      actually read this info from the BBC?

      (Graphs, quick but sickening read.)

      "Mercury toxicity - Brain death for all children - no child left behind." William McDonough

      by grayday101 on Sun Aug 20, 2006 at 01:52:48 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Damn, I just thought about the (0+ / 0-)

    flipping oil. Now our troops will NEVER get out.

    The devolution will be reality show televised, commercialized and trivialized.

    by niteskolar on Sun Aug 20, 2006 at 10:47:13 AM PDT

    •  And did you notice... (0+ / 0-)

      Around my locale, at least, gas prices have dropped by about 40 cents already off peak over the last month...despite the corroded pipes shutting down the Alaska BP field, despite the Israeli/Lebanese war, despite the ongoing civil war in Iraq...

      I've noticed this before.  Prices go steadily up for long periods, only to drop dramatically in the months leading up to US elections.  If I wanted to tinfoil, I'd say the oil companies and the saudis are doing all they can to make sure gas prices aren't an issue to be used against their buddies in Congress.

      The two big issues I supposedly heard Dems were going to push on for the elections were gas prices and minimum wage.  So Repubs suddenly try to push a minimum wage bill with attached poison pill, knowing the Dems will have to defeat it, to kill the one issue and let them talk about how they tried to up the minimum wage and the evil Dems stopped them.  Now gas prices plunge...  Hmmmm...  Coincidence?

      Got a problem with my posts? Quit reading them. They're usually opinions, and I don't come here to get in arguments.

      by drbloodaxe on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 11:15:42 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Assume the worst (6+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    coral, lipris, Jesterfox, bato, Lying eyes, deha

    Whatever Democrats decide should be done "after November," all speculation should be done assuming the worst-case scenario. Back during the 2004 campaign, our candidates had to pretend there was a chance things would improve between then and January 2005.

    No more. No more prefacing statements with, "assuming things don't improve in Iraq...." That ship has sailed.

    Things will not improve in Iraq as long as Bush and the rubber-stampers are in charge. Bush admitted as much when he said Iraq would still be a concern to his successor.

    ----

    One thing that should be done "after November," in my opinion: The War must be on the budget. The days of hiding its costs with emergency supplementals must end.

    Raging in enthusiastic support of the machine since January, 2008

    by abw on Sun Aug 20, 2006 at 10:49:35 AM PDT

    •  After November...yeah, right... (4+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      coral, abw, Nightprowlkitty, DSPS owl

      I assume the worst and think the situation in Iraq will not wait politely for our elections to occur in two and a half months before continuing to disintegrate at an ever increasing rate.  Just look how much worse things are now than in May.

      This just goes to show how broken our politics/political system is right now that there is not a thunderous bi-partisan hue and cry to force Bush, Inc. into asking (perhaps begging) all of the regional powers with an interest in how Iraq turns out (Turkey, Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, etc...) to convene and figure out a way to bring some hope out of this abyss.  Heck the American people are already ahead of the politicians on this one.

      Anyway, put all the options on the table, including breaking Iraq up into 3 smaller countries and the U.S. ceding control over the situation.

      I have no idea how it would turn out but dont think we have the luxury of waiting till mid-November.

      •  Big problem being (0+ / 0-)

        very seriously doubt that any of them would do anything to help the situation as long as Bush and Company are continuing to lead our nation.

        I know if I was the leader of any country I would not commit any men or money to a total clusterfuck that is still being run by the same ones that fucked it up.

        Perhaps if there was a complete change in the leadership from this side and those who have directed it all up till now were removed, then the nations may move to help if asked.

        June 3rd 2008 America is at last started on the road to long awaited recovery

        by eaglecries on Sun Aug 20, 2006 at 06:10:41 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Who says (12+ / 0-)

      That the Occupation Army is "slowing the fall"?  What makes anyone think that it is doing anything to prevent civil conflict at all?  I see no evidence of it conducting police actions to protect Sunni neighborhoods from Shi'ite reprisals or vice versa -- not to speak of getting into the far more tangled webs of power and conflict within these groups.

      I think it's more appropriate to say that the Occupation Army acts as a continuous irritant in Iraqi politics, the elephant in the living room that cannot be lived with and cannot be got rid of unless the elephant chooses to go.  If you had to live with an elephant in your house, eating your food, crapping all over, and occasionally trampling one of your children, you might not be getting along too well with your housemates either.  First step in a solution?  Get the elephant out of the house.

      It is a colossal sign of hubris to always think you are the solution and never the problem, and to go around blaming other people for the havoc you cause.    Let's do something right for once and put the elephant back where it belongs.

    •  I agree that (0+ / 0-)

      It is a colossal sign of hubris to always think you are the solution and never the problem, and to go around blaming other people for the havoc you cause.

      But I disagree that we aren't slowing the fall. Simply being in a part of Baghdad and providing protection for the fledgling government that may have been stormed and brought to complete ruin would have to qualify for "slowing the fall." Now don't get me wrong, I understand that we have no evidence  of "conducting police actions" resulting in a decrease in retorting violence but just by our numbers and our ability, I can' t possibly believe that 135,000 US troops aren't doing ANYTHING toward quelling violence. Surely that isn't your position?

      The devolution will be reality show televised, commercialized and trivialized.

      by niteskolar on Sun Aug 20, 2006 at 10:56:04 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  WIds made a good analogy. (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        baahl

        What is it you think the US troops are doing to limit violence, and how long do you think it can be suppressed? Your argument would reflect far more historical truth if applied to the Saddam regime instead of the present one.

        Everybody talkin' 'bout Heaven ain't goin' there -- Mahalia Jackson

        by DaveW on Sun Aug 20, 2006 at 11:03:57 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  The purpose (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        coral, Nightprowlkitty, DSPS owl

          Of an occupation army is to quell violence -- against themselves.  It is not to see to the well-being of people in the occupied country, or to intervene in third-party disputes.

          Car bombings and assassinations continue throughout Iraq, even in Baghdad.  Every once in a while, just to remind people that it's there, the Army busts down doors and kills or imprisons some random people.  But actual slow, careful, investigative police work would depend on an inside knowledge of the people which the Bush administration has never shown any interest in.

          As for the puppet government of the occupation -- their only chance to gain any effective control is to see the Occupation Army out the door.  Every day they fail to do that is one where they lose whatever little credit they have left.  If real power were given into their hands, I'd give them maybe a 35% chance of retaining it at the end of the year.  If the Occupation Army stays until 2010, I see no chance of them ending up other than at the end of a short rope.  We are not doing them any favors by staying.

        •  Puppet gov't of the occupation? (0+ / 0-)

          Hey, I'm not any happier about the situation than you are but you know there was a vote, right?

          As to this sentence "...kills or imprisons some random people"  There's half a million current and former Iraq combat tour soldiers who would take issue with that sentence.  Not that they're anywhere close to perfect of course.

          •  What does the vote have to do with it? (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            coral, eaglecries

            The current prime minister of Iraq, Nouri al-Maliki, is a leader in the Islamic Dawa Party, which is a fundamentalist Shiite party. Al-Dawa has engaged in many acts of terrorism over the years. According to Wikipedia:

            It supported the Islamic Revolution in Iran and in turn received support from the Iranian government, especially during the Iran-Iraq War.

            During the Iran-Iraq War, al-Dawa also committed violent acts against both Saddam Hussein's government in Iraq and Western targets. It was widely viewed in the West as a terrorist organization in this period. It attempted to assassinate Tariq Aziz, Hussein's longtime loyalist, in 1980; and attempted to assassinate Hussein himself in 1982 and 1987. In 1983 it simultaneously bombed the American and French embassies in Kuwait and several other domestic and foreign targets in Kuwait. The bombing of the American embassy was an early instance of suicide bombing in the Middle East...

            Since the voters of Iraq have chosen to elect an Islamic fundamentalist terrorist as prime minister, should the American military be morally compelled to keep him in power? I don't think so. Not one more American life should be lost keeping this rat-bastard in power.

            •  I think you're oversimplifying it (0+ / 0-)

              al-Dawa clearly has received aid from Iran in the past but hey, we took aid from the French against the British.  They're probably still receiving aid, I mean, they're not turning it down.  They're not monolithic though.  There's inter-shi'a fighting all over the south.  You can say any particular group is getting guns, that doesn't make the 60% shi'a of Iraq all Iranian proxies, every single one of them.  

              As for the prime minister?  Maliki?  He's not an "islamic fundamentalist terrorist", now you're just being ridiculous.  The guy isn't quite secular but is not a fundamentalist and has consistently held a hard line against action targetting civilians.  You wouldn't last 2 weeks in his job, you'd probably be in the corner sucking your thumb after a day.  He's working for the Iraqi people.

    •  I think you're absolutely right. (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Dissentinator

      This has been the case from the very beginning. But the political problem is, are any pols going to take the poison pill and say the US was the problem, is the problem, and will continue to be the problem as long as it stays there. Americans don't want to hear what asses the "authorities" they chose are.

      I think the best we can hope for is that Dems will come out strongly for withdrawal coupled with economic and diplomatic attempts to limit and repair some of the damage. Unfortunately it will be an appeal to American self-interest (it's costing too much and accomplishing nothing), not an appeal to reality and justice, that win the political race. But choosing the sanest available course for the wrong reasons is a little better than staying to totally insane one.

      Everybody talkin' 'bout Heaven ain't goin' there -- Mahalia Jackson

      by DaveW on Sun Aug 20, 2006 at 11:00:18 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  This is the Dems problem... (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        coral, DSPS owl

        Iraq is such a clusterfuck that there really is no realistic scenario that I have heard that will be good for U.S. interests (unfortunately, the same can be said for Iraqi interests as well):

        1. We stay the course: More U.S. soldiers will die propping up an Iraqi government dominated by fundamentalist Shiites.  More Sunnis will die/flee. Our indefinite presence continues to inflame the Islamic world, reducing any leverage that we have left in the Middle East.  Iranian influence continues to grow in Iraq.  The Iraqi Army/Police stand up and engage in sectarian violence continuing the cycle of clusterfucking.
        1. We gradually withdraw our troops and leave the current government in charge of Iraq.  Full-scale civil war breaks out.  Iran gains even more influence over the Shiite south.  The Kurds secede setting off a Turkish invasion/low level border war.  The Sunni sector becomes a training ground for Islamic free lance terrorist groups.  $5.00 per gallon gas.
        1.  Anybody........?

        The reason I say this is the Dems problem is because I think we will take the House and Senate (fingers crossed) and we will get the blame no matter what happens.

        "Dissent is the Highest form of Patriotism."  Tommy J.

        "Dissent is the Highest form of Patriotism." Tommy J.

        by Dissentinator on Sun Aug 20, 2006 at 11:28:46 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  possible comparison to 'Who Lost China'? (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        catullus

        I would like to suggest one reason many politicians don't want to get ahead of the story is a comparison with what the Republicans did in the '50s after China fell to the communisits.  For the better part of two decades - up through Nixon going to China - every Republican speech included a line "Who Lost China?"

        This was a strawman, of course, designed to convey the idea that the Democrats such as Truman were responsible for Chaing Kai Shek's regime being overthrown by Mao.

        Not to get into too much background, but Americans on the ground in China who spoke Chinese and traveled the country from the '20s through WWII were reporting the total corruption that Chaing's regime represented.

        Henry Luce, the Murdoch of his time, whose Time Magazine was the Fox News of its time, did a lot to promote Chaing in spite of reality being to the contrary.  FDR appeased Luce to get good domestic ink by promoting China as a key player in Allies of WWII.  

        Flash forward to Iraq, and it seems inevitable that a large portion of Iraq will become a functional province of Iran.  The US will be (and has been) in the peculiar position of being the military surrogate for Saudi Arabia in standing up the Sunnis against the Shia.  

        No matter how it comes out, future Karl Roves will find a meme to blame Democrats for losing Iraq.  Ignore them.

      •  What poison pill? (0+ / 0-)

        Finally, enough Americans are considering the invasion to have been a mistake. What's so dangerous about a pol acknowledging that it was a mistake, that we have a problem, and that if we want to salvage something good from the situation, it's going to take some kind of unspecified (unspecifiable?) hard work?

        If FDR fought fascism the way Bush fights terrorism, we'd all be speaking German.

        by Raptor on Sun Aug 20, 2006 at 04:16:29 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  US troops make things worse not better , not slo (0+ / 0-)

      A constand irritant  , is  right on themoney Wids

  •  I heard a Conservative say that Iraq... (8+ / 0-)

    isn't in a civil war because they have a functioning Government. IIRC the U.S. had a functioning government during our civil war. By this definition, I guess conservatives consider what happened here in the 1800's not to be a civil war, just a slight misunderstanding between the states. it probably wasn't a war, just a tussle brought about by some consternation over a difference of opinion, that's all. I do declare..

    These right wingers would be so much easier to deal with if we had a media that was based on reality, not conflict; i.e. information vs entertainment.

    The sleep of reason produces monsters.

    by Alumbrados on Sun Aug 20, 2006 at 10:53:08 AM PDT

    •  Goalpost shifting (0+ / 0-)

      Some right-wingers will use any criteria they can think of to deny the obvious. Even Lebanon had a government and a national army during its civil war.

    •  actually (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      vcmvo2

      if you talk to many southerners, it wasn't a civil war, it was an aggressive war by the north against the sovereign and independent confederacy.

    •  functioning (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      coral, DSPS owl

      But they don't have a functioning govt. The Iraqi govt. can't provide safety or basic utilities for its citizens, its citizens can't talk to the govt., the members of the govt. hide out so as not to be killed for being part of the govt., etc. Doesn't sound functioning to me.

      I just read a USA Today article that seems to say that the "functioning govt" applies to "insurgents," and that a functioning govt. is one of the measurements for a civil war, not one that precludes it.

      Well, I am just confused now, so this post may not be helfpul at all!

      USAToday

      "A civil war is a war between factions of the same country. There are five criteria for international recognition of this status: The contestants must control territory, have a functioning government, enjoy some foreign recognition, have identifiable regular armed forces and engage in major military operations."

      Under this definition, the war in Iraq does not qualify for "international recognition" as a civil war on several points.

      •The insurgents do not control territory.

      The insurgents have no functioning government. They are mostly members of religious factions.

      Also, related, from Democrats.org

      Failure to Establish Functioning Government Feeding Insurgency in Iraq. Creating a functioning national unity government was "key to quietening both the Sunni insurgency and the danger posed by Shia militias," said Lieutenant General Peter Chiarelli, commander of the US-led multinational corps in Iraq. The delay in forming a government was seen as a big obstacle to restoring order. Since the December elections, American officials pushed Iraqi elected officials to form a balanced national unity government. During the nearly four-month delay, the country was rocked by violence with increasingly sectarian overtones. While the Shiite militia was theoretically disbanded and brought into the political process, its members still carry weapons and have been accused of using their ministry posts to kidnap and kill Sunni Arab men.

      •  re: USA Today article (0+ / 0-)

        The insurgents do control territory. They control large neighborhoods in Baghdad, some of west-central Iraq, and all of southern Iraq. The Shi'ites control and operate the government of southern Iraq, and it is a functioning government. Ditto for the administration of the neigborhoods in Baghdad  -- Muqtada al-Sadr is essentially the mayor of Sadr City and controls much of the city via the Madhi Army.

        It's a civil war.

  •  Why worry now? (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    DaveW

    I don't see any value in speculating on what might happen, and what the remedy then might be.  

    I think at this point we need to hang Bush's failure around his neck, and demand that US troops be brought home.  If any of the parties in Iraq want something else, let them speak up -- then we can talk about an international force with more credibility.  

    The idea that we can "fix" Iraq (plus the arrogance and recklessness of Bush, etc.) is what got us into this quagmire...

    •  My only problem with this (0+ / 0-)

      is that even those BushCo possess the deed and the title to this colossal failure, innocent Iraqis as well as our servicemen are dying daily. So, what might happen and the remedy are worthy of present analysis.

      I think at this point we need to hang Bush's failure around his neck...

      Understand that it isn't squarely around his neck because they will continue to sing, "Nanny nanny boo boo, y'all voted for the war too."

      The devolution will be reality show televised, commercialized and trivialized.

      by niteskolar on Sun Aug 20, 2006 at 11:00:03 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Beyond cut-n-run v. stay-the-course (5+ / 0-)

    The WaPo piece is, indeed, a very good one. Pollack was a major supporter of the invasion and while he didn't fess up to his own miscalculations in supporting Bush's team in the invasion, he pulls no punches on the result. More importantly, he provides some ideas about what next.

    My own view is that we should move our main forces into Kurdistan to protect that region and still project some degree of force on Iran. As Pollack points out, Iran will try to openly influence a post-breakup Iraq. We need to keep a lid on Iran's expansionist plans if only to prevent the Sunni regimes from overreacting in response. The nuclear and Hezbollah issues are even more thorny, but conventional forces are largely useless in those cases. Kurdistan, being the most pro-American place in the Middle East outside Israel, is a perfect spot to congregate. To ease Turkey's concerns, we should seal the border with Turkey and work to hunt down PKK rebels who would use Iraqi Kurdistan as a launching point for a new uprising in Turkey. I think we should still keep Special Forces in Iraq proper so we can at least have some influence on the Iraqi army training process. Anyway, this should help to get beyond the infantile "cut-n-run v. stay the course" pissing contest of today.

  •  The Byman/Pollack article . . . (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    coral, catullus

    . . . ends with the "suggested remedy" of a force of 450,000 to handle the Iraq civil war -- but not a word about where we'd find that many troops. The answer, of course, is a military draft for who knows how long -- which would mean the immediate collapse of widespread public support for the war. So it's not a remedy at all, and not even really the start of an "important discussion."

    •  of course it is (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Ray Radlein, niteskolar, vcmvo2

      just because the remedy might be unacceptalbe doesn't, alas, automatically take it off the table.

      In fact, if we start discussing where the troops are supposed to come from, we'll start the slow march back to reality-based policy. Reality: it ain't pretty, but it's home.

      "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

      by DemFromCT on Sun Aug 20, 2006 at 10:59:31 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I thought you were (0+ / 0-)

      about to suggest we get the troops from your namesake. < /snark>

      The devolution will be reality show televised, commercialized and trivialized.

      by niteskolar on Sun Aug 20, 2006 at 11:02:17 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Not really (0+ / 0-)

      It doesn't actually suggest such a massive force. Just that one would be necessary to prevent a major civil war in the first place. They seem to dismiss it out of hand for the very reasons you mention.

    •  Necessary Conditions (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      catullus

      It's worse than that, even: The article argues that it would take not just a half million troops, but also a hugely expensive generational commitment, and some particularly brilliant, precise, and courageous diplomacy.

      In other words: We are so fucked.


      "I play a street-wise pimp" — Al Gore

      by Ray Radlein on Sun Aug 20, 2006 at 01:37:35 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Byman/Pollack endorse permanent refugee camps (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      esquimaux

      as a way of managing the millions of Iraqi refugees that are about to be created. They call these camps "catch-basins":

      One option might be to create a system of buffer zones and refugee collection points inside Iraq staffed by U.S. and other coalition personnel. These collection points would be located on major roads, preferably near airstrips along Iraq's border -- thus on the principal routes that refugees would take to flee, providing a good logistical infrastructure to house, feed and otherwise care for tens or hundreds of thousands of refugees. Iraqi refugees would be gathered at these points and held there. In addition, coalition military forces would defend the refugee camps against attack, pacify and disarm them, and patrol large swaths of Iraqi territory nearby.

      These zones would serve as "catch basins" for Iraqis fleeing the fighting, offering a secure place to stay within the nation's borders and thus preventing them from destabilizing neighboring countries. At the same time, they would serve as buffers between Iraq and its neighbors, preventing other forms of spillover -- such as militia movements, refugee flows out of Iraq and invasions into Iraq.

      Perhaps most important, the catch-basin proposal requires Americans to endure significant long-term costs -- both in blood and treasure -- in Iraq. The United States would still need to deploy tens of thousands of troops to the nation (albeit on its periphery), as well as supplies to feed and care for hundreds of thousands of refugees. The United States would still occupy parts of Iraq, and the U.S. presence would remain a recruiting poster for the jihadist movement. Finally, all of these costs would have to be endured for as long as the war rages; recall that refugees from the wars in Afghanistan lived away from their homes for more than 20 years.

      This sounds like a proposal to set up gulags for the displaced. What the authors are suggesting is the  Israeli model of setting up permanent refugee camps for the Palestianians, only the Americans would be setting them up for the Iraqis. Want two or three more generations of warfare in Iraq? Accept this proposal.

      With a permanent system of refugee camps put in place, we will find ourselves mired in exactly the same kind of problems Israel has had in  administering the Palestinian territories. The potential for many Sabra and Shatila type massacres would be high.

    •  What's the best solution for Americans? (0+ / 0-)

      Ordinary, everyday, tax-paying, Americans with kids, loved ones, or themselves serving in the military?

      The best solution is to get out now.

      I don't think we should be commited to giving up our lives, our children's and family's lives, our tax money, our security, for God's sakes, to salvage a totally idiotic and misconceived war devised by Bush and Cheney for the benefit of their oil and war profiteering cronies.

      End of story.

      "Control of the initiative is control of the battle. In the alley, at the poker table or in politics. One must raise." David Mamet

      by coral on Sun Aug 20, 2006 at 10:22:25 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  A fundamental problem most Americans don't get (8+ / 0-)

    is that US government is run for US business interests. This includes both domestic and foreign policy, which are joined at the hip because energy makes the US economy go, and also the military that guarantees energy security. All other countries know this and they aren't going to deal with the US on any other terms than realpolitik that takes this into account. The US is just not an honest broker.

    If the Dems get in power and continue this policy, as the lobbying money is already pouring in to do, there will be no real solution forthcoming, since it will be business as usual as the US tries to control its future and the future of the world through economic and military might. As long as this goes on, we will be facing 4th gen asymmetrical warfare as the only means the weak and oppressed have to deal with this situation, since the US is dominant in symmetrical warfare.

    Live unity, celebrate diversity.

    by tjfxh on Sun Aug 20, 2006 at 10:57:07 AM PDT

    •  Well There'll Certainly Be Major Changes Because (0+ / 0-)

      the totality of these policies are about to create economic chaos that will force changes of course.

      We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

      by Gooserock on Sun Aug 20, 2006 at 11:10:35 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Don't underestimate (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        BobOak, Coherent Viewpoint, DSPS owl
        1. the depth of control of US business interests over the US government
        1. the ability US business interests to manipulate US public opinion through media, advertising, the political bully pulpit and the punditocracy.

        A huge crisis will prduce changes, to be sure, but not necessarily the way one thinks. A demogogue can arise just as easily as a populist hero.

        This is not a done deal by any means and I don't yet see any really strong Dem leader emerging who can turn the tide. There's just a whole lot of momentum to overcome.

        Live unity, celebrate diversity.

        by tjfxh on Sun Aug 20, 2006 at 11:16:36 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Only one quibble (0+ / 0-)

          The business interests controlling our government are extra-national at the very least. They are no longer American, since they keep their financial dealing and most of their production overseas.

          We have a two-tiered system. One global, with global financial capital and global business interests. The other American, with ordinary, everyday folks at the mercy of these global interests, who could care less about the well-being of America and Americans.

          "Control of the initiative is control of the battle. In the alley, at the poker table or in politics. One must raise." David Mamet

          by coral on Sun Aug 20, 2006 at 10:27:34 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  I know (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    catullus, the freak

    that it' been said before, but could there have been any other conclusion? This is why many people were against invading Iraq to begin with!
    No matter when we leave, more Shia/Sunni violence will erupt. I don't think Iraq can stay together as one country. The Unity government is a joke, our presence just exacerbates the situation, and the tensions between Shia and Sunni are centuries old. We can't do anything about it.
    We need to cut Iraq up like they did Germany after WWII. Kurdstan slice, Shia Iraq slice, Sunni Iraq slice. And even that might not work, but it's a start.

    There's nothing free about Free Markets!

    by Da Rat Bastid on Sun Aug 20, 2006 at 10:58:08 AM PDT

    •  I posted to Elrod (0+ / 0-)

      just above with basically the same solution as you.
      I agree that it might not work but we have to at least try to solve this a peacefully as possible.  If we can guarantee the Sunni some oil wells so that they have some kind of income, then it might work. Just keep some troops in Kurdistan to stop and incursions by Turkey or Iran and some on the borders in Kuwait and Jordan to monitor.

  •  Utter Disaster, that's what. (0+ / 0-)

    BushCo is incapable of recognizing the cold reality wrought by their policy failures and changing course to affect a major correstion or improvement of the situation.

    So, what's next will be an utter disaster.

  •  is the reality based community making a comeback? (0+ / 0-)

    after having been lost in a worm hole for the past five or so years it looks like the reality based super hero team may have found its way out of the worm hole, run around with the red queen for awhile and finally popped back up out of that rabbit hole to declare the obvious. so now what to do? in the short term it is hard to say as the belladonna infused wizards of bush world are still at the controls....so we have to hammer the points about all the lies and incompetence of the bushies over and over every day ( learned that from karl the frog boy himself ), take back some power, hold some folks in this administration accountable ( impeach or arrest ), start formulating ways to build bridges to the rest of the world instead of blowing up all the existing ones and try to first put an end to the carnage....but as kerry said in the debates when asked what he would do about iraq if elected... paraphrasing... ' i am not sure as i don't know what we will find when we take over'. well its alot further down the road and things are way more fucked then they were in 04 so we need to hear from all 06 and 08 candidates what their best ideas are...and critique them as they evolve.

  •  you'd better start thnking about this week then (4+ / 0-)

    because Iran has already said they wouldn't even contemplate acquiescing to Bush's demand that they stop seeking or making enriched uranium; they have started war games; they are lobbing mortars into Iraq on the northern territories at the Kurds; France has dishonored it's name once again, first by holding up the Cease Fire, now by sending in a measly 200 troops to keep the peace; the UN is snorting like an old broken down dray horse again; the British are trying to dump Tony Blair; old generals in the States are snorting fire like decrepit old dragons and Bush Cheney et all still make threats they have no way of keeping, making the mighty vaunted American military look like a bunch of Boy Scouts in survival camp. The presidential and senatorial hopefuls huffed and puffed for all they were worth but embarrasedly failed to blow the Middle East house down; Condoleeza Rice's new role as Mid East midwife resulted in a deformed and still born child and the butchers are raving their rants. Look for the smell of napalm and nukes in the morning with your cofee and as far as I can see no one can do a damn thing about it. At least not to prevent it, maybe afterwards, but then is'nt this what they wanted in the first place? seems to me we've been properly snookered!

  •  Joe can't distinguish the present from the future (0+ / 0-)

    Lieberman said he would support an "international crisis conference on Iraq" with the United States, its allies and Arab countries worrying "that if Iraq collapses and falls into civil war that Iran will surge in and dominate and claim a victory."

    "Mr. President, I'm not saying we wouldn't get our hair mussed." General Buck Turgidson

    by muledriver on Sun Aug 20, 2006 at 11:06:30 AM PDT

  •  What I'd like to know is... (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    coral

    ...who has to officially say that it's a civil war before it becomes an accepted fact?

    JP
    http://welcome-to-pottersville.blogs...

    Defending bad taste and liberalism since 2005.

    by jurassicpork on Sun Aug 20, 2006 at 11:06:40 AM PDT

  •  Israel/Palestine must be solved (0+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    DSPS owl

    "There's a lot here to digest, and not all the suggestions make complete sense,"

    Not really that complicated. The bottom line is Bush abandoned the two state solution and backed Sharon's quest for a greater Israel through military means.  Bush knew that backing Sharon would meet with favor with American punditry and enhance him politically.

    Bush must do two things for America.  First, forget Iraq as an election diversion and get bin Laden. Secondly,  settle Israel/Palestine with two states on the 1967 borders as already accepted by Israel's enemies, recognizing that Israel's 'secure borders' is just an excuse figment. The USA does not have secure borders.

  •  On MTP this morning... (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    chrississippi, coral, OLinda, DSPS owl

    Retired Gen. Barry McCaffrey talked about a need for new civilian leadership at the Pentagon. He was concerned that the military was going to be broken in 32 months and that we weren't going to be in a strong strategic position to deal with other problems in the world because of Iraq.

    John Harwood followed up McCaffrey's comment about a need for new civilian leadership at the Pentagon with a comment that a Dem strategist said that Dems all over were going to talk about accountability re: Iraq. They planned on forcing GOPers all over to go on the record about Donald Rumsfeld and whether he should stay or go.

    The way this part of the roundtable went was positive for the Democrats. Now McCaffrey doesn't come out and say "Well, the Dems are right to demand accountability from the civilian leadership at the Pentagon," but that's one of the underlying messages you get from the segment.

    "The way the loser loses will determine whether the winner wins in November." -- Rahm Emanuel

    by Newsie8200 on Sun Aug 20, 2006 at 11:07:28 AM PDT

    •  Thanks, Newsie (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Newsie8200

      I have got to quit staying up so late on Saturday's reading Al's Sunday Talk diary. I slept through the Sunday shows this morning. Hope to catch replays of MTP and maybe some videos online.

    •  War and Piece has something yesterday . . . (0+ / 0-)

      and pontificator diaried it.

      I think it sounds about right. Getting rid of Rumsfeld makes political sense for Republicans before midterm elections---even though Chimpy will have to hold his famed "stay the course" nose to do it. It makes him look "deciderly," makes him seem like he gets the fact the occupation is a fuck-up, and puts Dems on the defensive; they'll almost all line up behind the administration doing something actually constructive. The confirmation hearings would be a big deal for the MSM given the ongoing carnage in Iraq they keep ignoring---a way to cover the reality of the war without really looking like they're taking sides against the administration . . . .

      It's a good political move, and I suspect if they can find somebody it's going to happen. Like so many other things, it'd be good for Democrats to get in front of it. "Republicans lost the War on Terror" might be a start . . .

  •  February 22nd, 2006 (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    coral

    The date of the bombing of the Golden Mosque and the beginning of the civil war in Iraq.  I a story that day as well.  I removed the question mark from the title the same day.

    We're all just monkeys burning in hell. SmokeyMonkey.org

    by smokeymonkey on Sun Aug 20, 2006 at 11:08:54 AM PDT

    •  exactly! (0+ / 0-)

      I walked into my office that morning as another guy my age (last Vietnam draft year) was reading the headline.  He said, "Now why would they do that?"  I told him, "Don't you get it, the civil war has started."  You don't have to know much history to comprehend the problem, but you have to know some history to know it's a real problem.  Our Fearfull Leader doesn't know any history.

  •  Everytime I read about a large (0+ / 0-)

    bombing, it's the Sunnis bombing the Shiites...maybe Bushco wants Shiites supressed and that's why we are still there.

    Will the elite be happy living behind gated communities in the potential meltdown? Peace now. -7.00, -2.92

    by mattes on Sun Aug 20, 2006 at 11:09:27 AM PDT

  •  When the Shiites hit the fan? (0+ / 0-)

    No serious content intended here, just some scatalogical free association.

    We're all pretty strange one way or another; some of us just hide it better. "Normal" is a dryer setting.

    by david78209 on Sun Aug 20, 2006 at 11:09:51 AM PDT

  •  Silly CIA anaylsts...what did they know???? (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    OLinda, BobOak, DSPS owl

    Leadership means listening to people who are smarter than you...but as we all know,