Daily Kos

"Ben & Jerry's: Frauds?" [Updated]

Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 02:34:02 PM PDT

A friend of mine was interested in some information over at the Humane Society. Not being very internet/blog savvy, he wanted me to help him publish an article about his concern with Ben and Jerry's policy with respect to their treatment of animals. Personally, I've always liked their ice cream, but I think it would be preferable if the chickens which supply the eggs they use were treated better. Anyway, here's what he had to say:

Ben & Jerry's is a favorite company amongst many progressives for its public opposition towards the cruel and environmentally destructive effects of factory farming. On its web site, the company criticizes what it calls "giant, industrial farming operations," and it ends one of its commercials with the tag line, "Ben & Jerry's: Join our fight for small family farms." Unfortunately, in at least one important area, it looks like the company's "green" values are just a hoax.

::More on the flip::

As it turns out, the Humane Society of the United States conducted an investigation of a factory farming giant that supplies eggs to Ben & Jerry's (yes, there are eggs in every one of its ice cream flavors). Through a hidden camera, the Humane Society documented abuses that would make even the strongest stomachs turn. If you're up to it, you can take a look at the video here: Link  

So, despite Ben & Jerry's claim to oppose factory farming, its eggs come from some of the worst factory farming corporations in the country. These animal factories confine hens in barren cages that are too small for them even to spread their wings. In fact, each hen is allotted less space than a single sheet of paper.  

To further this hypocrisy, Ben & Jerry's refuses to use eggs from caged birds in any of its European ice cream, stating in an annual report that "battery cage housing systems don't meet our best case scenario for animal welfare."

It should disturb us all when a company makes a profit by preying on progressive consumers through deceiving marketing tactics. Ben & Jerry's has built a loyal customer base by convincing the public that it has values that the company doesn't even follow in its own purchasing decisions. As President Bush famously attempted to say, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice"...well, you know the rest. Shame you on Ben & Jerry's.  

For more information on the truth behind Ben & Jerry's, check out: Link

Update [2006-8-22 19:53:41 by deano]: I don't believe the intent of the author was aimed at Ben & Jerry the people, but the company that now bears their name. Here's an article posted in the thread about the nature of Ben & Jerry as social activists:Link

Update [2006-8-23 19:25:57 by deano]:: Well, aparently Ben & Jerry's did the right thing and dropped the egg supplier:

WASHINGTON (AP) - Ben & Jerry's Homemade Inc. said Wednesday it will drop an egg supplier accused of mistreating chickens, responding to pressure from the Humane Society of the United States. The ice cream maker's CEO, Walt Freese, said in a telephone interview that dropping Michael Foods Inc., of Minnetonka, Minn., "seemed like the right thing to do." He said the change would be effective next week.
Good for them!

Tags: animal rights, corporations, factory farms (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 259 comments

  •  chickens are food (9+ / 0-)

    they aren't dogs or cats. get over it.

    •  um (23+ / 0-)

      if you knew what went on in chicken factory farms, you'd never again touch their products

      and i'm not talking about abuse here, although it is definitely abuse --- i'm talking about filthy, filthy conditions, rivers of shit, and sick sick sick sick sick sick chickens

      James Inhofe (R - Exxon): The greatest hoax ever perpetrated on the people of Oklahoma. - Eiron

      by cookiebear on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 02:29:00 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  And the eggs you get from them are often (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        cookiebear, Elise, Floja Roja

        weeks old.  When they hit the expiration date, they just send 'em through the system again to stamp with a new date.  Saw it on MSM, so know it's true.

        •  LOL (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          litho

          OH yes, because the MSM NEVER lies.

          And George Bush is an excellent president.  Heard it on Tweety so it must be true.

          "But your flag decal won't get you into heaven anymore"--Prine 4070+ dead Americans. Bring them home.

          by Miss Blue on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 02:57:04 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  You can tell a fresh egg (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          cookiebear, blueoasis

          by the white. Fresh egg whites aren't runny. Most store bought eggs have runny whites.

          "I wish that for just one time You could stand inside my shoes You'd know what a drag it is To see you" - Dylan

          by Floja Roja on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 03:12:12 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  And rich in iron dark yellow yolks (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Floja Roja

            indicate free range chickens, not the pale yellow yolks in store eggs. It is a sickly color of yellow because the chickens are sick and not showing symptoms because they are full of anti-biotics.

            FUKUOKA: Part of my purpose is to create a society where no one has to do anything.PARACELSUS:So then, you wormy and lousy Sophist...

            by abbeysbooks on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 03:55:17 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I noticed this about yolk color (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              RosyFinch

              when a neighbor who raised chickens and turkeys would give me eggs. At first it put me off, but they were delicious. I still haven't found that color in any store-bought eggs, even the so-called cage free ones.

              "I wish that for just one time You could stand inside my shoes You'd know what a drag it is To see you" - Dylan

              by Floja Roja on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 05:13:05 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  So it's not about animal rights? (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        cookiebear

        It's about the quality of the food supply?

        That I can get behind.

        The feelings of the chicken ... not so much.

        It's important to frame an argument properly if one wants buy-in from a broad population.

        White woman over 50 for OBAMA!! (Endorsed 10/07)

        by Glinda on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 03:18:30 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  really (4+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Glinda, coigue, Elise, myrealname

          you do not want to eat crap from a factory farm

          it's worse than your wildest possible imaginings

          it's very, very, very nasty

          James Inhofe (R - Exxon): The greatest hoax ever perpetrated on the people of Oklahoma. - Eiron

          by cookiebear on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 03:49:11 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I know (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            cookiebear

            I eat local Hudson Valley organic everything when I'm home.

            Unfortunately during the week I eat at restaurants or my hotel's room service. The quality of the ingredients is noticably worse. But without a kitchen and in the boondocks of VA with no car, I haven't much choice.

            White woman over 50 for OBAMA!! (Endorsed 10/07)

            by Glinda on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 04:13:17 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Quality of life and quality of animal products (4+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Glinda, HK, desordre remplir, myrealname

          go together. I buy milk kfrom the cow at a nearby Amish farmer. When I look at store milk it doesn't even look like milk to me.

          If you ever named and had a pet chicken you would feel differently about their feelings. I had a tiny banty rooster who crowed when he couldn't have been more than 4 inches from tail to head. Adorable. His best friend was a guinea hen who had been raised by the banty's mother hen in the same flock. They were fast friends. If one of them got out of sight of the other my little Ozzie would jump up as high as he could get on something and crow and crow for Harriet until they were together again. They would come in the house and look for insects in the floorboards. They were just darling.

          And then I came home one day and a weasel had gotten both of them. Just sucked their blood out and left their bodies. Now I am crying again and it's been over ten years.

          FUKUOKA: Part of my purpose is to create a society where no one has to do anything.PARACELSUS:So then, you wormy and lousy Sophist...

          by abbeysbooks on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 04:02:38 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  My butcher in upstate NY ... (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            wader, RosyFinch

            has his shop in front of the farm where his wife, sons and daughters-in-law raise his poultry and game free range (in the true sense)and take it to the Union Square farmers market (and about a half dozen others) every market day.

            You can walk right back (if his wife's around) and see the animals. It's a loud happy farm ... like the farms of my childhood: small, sustainable.

            Great flavor and texture. Not inexpensive though ...

            White woman over 50 for OBAMA!! (Endorsed 10/07)

            by Glinda on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 04:19:26 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  bs (17+ / 0-)

      they are all animals, like us, and deserve to be treated humanely. I tend to believe that you can tell a lot about a person by how they treat animals - and the same could be said for a company.

      "So long as governments set the example of killing their enemies, private individuals will occasionally kill theirs." Elbert Hubbard (1856-1915)

      by sassy texan on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 02:30:36 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  or those who eat them (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        slksfca

        have you ever enjoyed a nice grocery store chicken breast? What am I to think of you then?

        All extremists are irrational and should be exposed

        by SeanF on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 02:32:59 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  judge me (5+ / 0-)

          however you want. I know me and the choices I make. I am very comfortable with myself (hell, I fucking rock!). If you must know, I have eaten meat but I hate it and always have. Same with eggs ever since my 3rd grade teacher showed us what they really are. That's just me. I am also perfectly comfortable judging someone who says, "who cares" when it comes to animal abuse. But again, that's just me.

          "So long as governments set the example of killing their enemies, private individuals will occasionally kill theirs." Elbert Hubbard (1856-1915)

          by sassy texan on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 02:43:08 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  so it's attitude (0+ / 0-)

            not action that matters? I'm sure the chickens really appreciate that. Personally, I'd rather that the attitude coincided with the actions. That at least is more honest, or to put it more charitably, less delusional.

            p.s. from other chats with you, i know you fucking rock!

            All extremists are irrational and should be exposed

            by SeanF on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 02:47:47 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I eat meat and I love it (15+ / 0-)

              I don't apologize for it, I don't plan to stop.  All creatures feed other creatures; it's the natural cycle of life.  That doesn't mean I support treating fellow creatures inhumanely before they are killed to be eaten.  That's not part of the natural cycle of life.  That's a pointless cruelty we humans choose to inflict on our fellow creatures out of soulless indifference.

              •  natural? (0+ / 0-)

                Do you ever eat animals raw? Kill one with your bare teeth and hands, eat the furry, bloody flesh right off the freshly killed carcas? That would be natural. If it doesn't seem natural to you, then maybe it's not what nature intended for you.

                You can eat an apple fresh off the tree, but no normal person would think of eating an animal unless there was a lot of preperation involved, preperation that would not occur in nature.

                A cat eating a mouse is natural. A human eating a cow is not. It is a learned behavior, and it can be unlearned.

                "I'm bad at being subtle, but I ain't that tough." -Joan Jett

                by foxfire burns on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 03:21:26 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  humans eating cows (2+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  rockhound, Elise

                  Actually, humans eating cows is perfectly natural.  Hell, humans drove the wooly mammoth to extinction, and we were the ONLY predator.

                  What's not natural is eating McDonald's hamburgers.  I knew a guy who refused to eat meat he didn't kill himself.  That's a very sensible position, to me.  I'm a big proponent of the hunting and fishing experience for that very reason... kill and clean your own food, and you get a whole new respect for it.  It's also one reason that hunters are often ardent environmentalists.

                  By modern definitions, Jesus was a terrorist.

                  by Leggy Starlitz on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 03:26:57 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  And the biggest irony is (0+ / 0-)

                    How many "sportsmen" and NRA members and hunters support the GOP which is gutting (pun noted) conservation policy.

                  •  Love your sig line (0+ / 0-)

                    right on Toynbee's wave length about disintigrating civilizations.

                    FUKUOKA: Part of my purpose is to create a society where no one has to do anything.PARACELSUS:So then, you wormy and lousy Sophist...

                    by abbeysbooks on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 04:08:01 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  my sig (0+ / 0-)

                      It's a quote from the movie "Syriana".  I didn't have enough characters to give proper credit.

                      By modern definitions, Jesus was a terrorist.

                      by Leggy Starlitz on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 06:47:39 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Toynbee says: (0+ / 0-)

                        When a civilization is on the way up it is emulated everywhere, but when it begins to disintegrate then it resorts to force and shows its ugly face, its teeth. What we are doing.

                        Also a civilization faces a test, and as it fails the test it is repeated, and if it doesn't meet the test then it is finished.

                        Viet Nam was the first test. Now Iraq.  War is no longer a viable alternative. It is a dinosauer against a guerilla army of terrorists. We have not treated the middle east with respect so now we are paying for our arrogance and hegemony.

                        FUKUOKA: Part of my purpose is to create a society where no one has to do anything.PARACELSUS:So then, you wormy and lousy Sophist...

                        by abbeysbooks on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 07:59:24 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                •  an apple freshly picked, yes.... (1+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  Free Spirit

                  black beans, not so much.

                  bumper stickers are another way of saying "hey, let's never hang out." -- dimitri martin

                  by TrollKing on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 04:01:16 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Actually, no. (2+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  homogenius, Free Spirit

                  One of our earliest technological adaptations was cooking, because our large brains require so many calories that partially breaking down the proteins in our food through cooking accelerates our ability to survive.  Which is why people everywhere, of every culture, cook food.

                  There is no animal on earth that does not eat everything it is CAPABLE of eating.  Period.  Except for a human vegetarian.  Looks pretty clear which one is natural to me.

                  Me?  I love vegetarians.  They're delicious.

                  The DLC was created to prevent the takeover of the Democratic Party by Democrats.

                  by Dracowyrm on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 04:01:27 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Well, sure - then human sexuality can be (1+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    Free Spirit

                    considered rather unnatural in comparison to all other animals, a well.  Maybe our use of various forms of clothing among all the animals on Earth.  Perhaps our banking systems, too.  Perchance our modes of mechanized transport, if you think about it.  Possibly our distillation of natural resources to make relatively novel substances, as well.  And so on.

                    "So, please stay where you are. Don't move and don't panic. Don't take off your shoes! Jobs is on the way."

                    by wader on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 12:41:23 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Late reply, but-- (0+ / 0-)

                      I don't see your point.

                      "Unnatural" isn't the issue.  The only thing humans are good at is abstract thought (allowing development of tools and survival strategies) and tool use.  We do that, so it's natural.

                      Whether or not it's advisable or consistent with the functioning of surrounding ecosystems is something else entirely.  

                      The question at hand was whether or not it is natural for people to eat meat.  We CAN eat meat, so it is.  

                      Is it desirable to do so?  Well, if you're of Mongolian or Inuit extraction, it's not only desirable, it's pretty much required.  The native diets of these people contain little or no non-animal food.  If you're of European extraction, too much leads to health problems, but for some, too little can do that, too.  

                      The so-called "Pleistocene diet" reconstructed from archeological evidence includes sporadic meals of meat--perhaps once per week-- with diverse vegetable foods daily.

                      I'm the first to say that unnecessary cruelty in the rearing of animals for food--and excessive grazing causing erosion and other environmental impacts--are bad things.  But I don't see any evidence that a complete conversion to vegetarianism is either a practical proposal or a good idea.  You know what the primary driver of Amazonian deforestation is now?  Soybean production for China.  That's right:  rainforest-killing tofu.

                      I imagine the dense communities of animals and plants which lived in the areas being cleared in the Amazon basin to grow soybeans experience having their habitat destroyed as cruelty, and the same is true when rangeland, which is quite good habitat, is converted to row crops.  So the idea that becoming a vegetarian is "less cruel" doesn't hold much water, to my mind.

                      The DLC was created to prevent the takeover of the Democratic Party by Democrats.

                      by Dracowyrm on Tue Aug 29, 2006 at 12:16:20 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                •  For a graphic description of a man eating a rat (0+ / 0-)

                  raw, flesh and fur and bones, read Victor Herman's Coming Out of the Ice about when he was in a slave labor camp in Siberia and starving to death. Other inmates preferred to starve to death rather than eat rat. The Chinese eat rat, but they cook it. Victor didn't have time to properly prepare it. And after he was back in the US he said he used to have times when he would just crave raw rat.

                  FUKUOKA: Part of my purpose is to create a society where no one has to do anything.PARACELSUS:So then, you wormy and lousy Sophist...

                  by abbeysbooks on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 04:06:55 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  everything we do is natural (2+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  wader, Free Spirit

                  we are animals and our industry is part of the ecosystem. We are the filthiest animals, but if we do it, it is natural.

                  Ergo, our food preparation is natural.Our learned behaviors are natural.

                  What would NOT be natural is if we ate food like other animals do.

                  Destructive, unsustainable....but still natural.

                  Back from the dead due to a busted ankle and severe boredom.

                  by coigue on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 04:30:13 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Right (0+ / 0-)

                  Early man was a vegetarian. Of course it's natural. Learned? Learned from whom? Who was the first teacher?

                  Your view of the human species is amazingly myopic.

              •  Ever watch a cat with a bird or mouse? (0+ / 0-)

                •  My Orange pootie named Orange (0+ / 0-)

                  just loves them to death. He is such an erotic animal and he really is loving them the way he does me when he wants to wake me up. Very tender and persistent. He will scrape his claws on me ever so slightly. Over and over. The mouse or bird gets the same.

                  FUKUOKA: Part of my purpose is to create a society where no one has to do anything.PARACELSUS:So then, you wormy and lousy Sophist...

                  by abbeysbooks on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 04:10:00 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Oh, but that's not 'natural' for us (0+ / 0-)

                  We are humans. We are special. We are sensitive. We were put here by God. We are the Chosen Species. What our fellow creatures do isn't good enough for us. We prefer mass destruction from a distance to honest tearing of flesh up close and personal. Offends our sensibilities. Isn't "natural."

            •  straw man (16+ / 0-)

              you have been twisting this issue so let me try to straighten it back out. I believe live animals should be treated humanely, whether they are pets or not. That was the point of this diary and the comment I replied to.

              You keep talking about eating meat, not the point of the diary. You also keep talking about leather - again, not the point. You seem to think you can call me out on those 2 points and that will negate the only point I have made. It won't.

              Treating live animals humanely is the least we can do. I have mixed emotions about eating meat and except on rare occasions, I don't. More because the thought of it grosses me out and has for a long time. I don't think I wear any leather, but that's mainly because I am cheap. Seriously though, I try to be a good consumer and eating flesh also happens to disgust me.

              Simply put: Am I perfect? Hell no but I am willing to stand up and say: live animals shouldn't be abused. I didn't think it was such a controversial stand.

              "So long as governments set the example of killing their enemies, private individuals will occasionally kill theirs." Elbert Hubbard (1856-1915)

              by sassy texan on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 02:58:21 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  side note: (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            sassy texan

            it is true.. sassy does fucking rock.

        •  Yes, those grocery store chicken breasts... (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Buckeye BattleCry, litho

          Nasty tasting things. You can tell by the taste that they must be feeding them crap. The last ones I bought at Vons tasted like they were decayed, though they looked fresh.

          "I wish that for just one time You could stand inside my shoes You'd know what a drag it is To see you" - Dylan

          by Floja Roja on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 03:13:58 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I think all meat at the local grocery stores... (3+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            foxfire burns, litho, Floja Roja

            ...is terrible.  I'm a vegetarian but my kids are meat eaters.  The quality of big grocery store meats are terrible and it smells and I'm sure tastes, like crap.    I tend to stick with the butcher shop.  At least I know it's fresh.

            •  This is one of the issues with factory farms. (0+ / 0-)

              The taste. It's a fact that grass fed beef tastes better than grain fed beef, for instance. I don't know much about chickens, but I hear they feed them some nasty slop on those farms. It is reflected in the taste.

              For me, that alone is a good reason to buy the organic stuff. I'm a foodie.

              "I wish that for just one time You could stand inside my shoes You'd know what a drag it is To see you" - Dylan

              by Floja Roja on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 03:44:11 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  Chickens are food, so get over the (12+ / 0-)

      incredibly inhumane, cruel, horrible conditions they are forced to live their entire lives?  Why is how dogs and cats treated more important?  Oh, because it makes us feel good because their our pets?  My god, what a callous, hard person you must be.  Only pets deserve to be treated decently.  But cows, chickens, pigs (those incredibly intelligent animals) can be treated worse than machines would ever be treated, and it's okay because their sole purpose for existence is food (to us anyway, and we're the only ones that count).  A pox on you.  

      •  this is how everyone (0+ / 0-)

        most likely including you, lives their lives. Except no one is willing to fess up to it. So careful with those poxes cuz they're probably gonna come right back round to you...

        All extremists are irrational and should be exposed

        by SeanF on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 02:38:08 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  If I'm ever as uncaring as that, (7+ / 0-)

          I hope it does come back at me.  That's how the neocons live their lives.  I truly thought there was some level of morality on this site.  No one can eliminate all the negative effects their lifestyle causes, but at least an effort can be made and we can CARE.  You don't care about the most helpless, you're barely a step above the neocons, 'cause they just extend that attitude a little bit farther than you.

          •  LOL (0+ / 0-)

            Ever own anything made from leather?

            •  consistancy? (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Elise, sassy texan

              I can't speak for gustynpip, but for myself, I would rather be inconsistant than to be consistantly wrong.

              Leather, by the way, is a silly argument. Cows are not killed for leather. Leather is made from cows already killed for beef. If every single person stopped buying leather, it would not save a single life. Every person who stopps eating beef, however, saves many.

              "I'm bad at being subtle, but I ain't that tough." -Joan Jett

              by foxfire burns on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 03:28:43 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Who wants to be consistently wrong? (0+ / 0-)

                Cows are not killed for leather.

                Not according to PETA

                •  YOU, apparently! (1+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  sassy texan

                  Your argument seems to be that if one commits the wrong of wearing leather, one must therefore commit the wrongs of eating meat, supporting cruel treatment of animals before they're killed, etc. Your argument is that once a person is wrong, they need to be wrong consistantly. If that's not your argument, then why did you bring up leather at all?

                  "I'm bad at being subtle, but I ain't that tough." -Joan Jett

                  by foxfire burns on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 03:49:40 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Nice try (0+ / 0-)

                    But no dice. First, check the link I provided. Second, the same tenious logic of deniability in the because leather is just an additional product (though cattle is killed just for skins as well) therefore it is ok to buy it is the same type of sophistry as saying... well, since those looters broke the store widow to steal high-def televisions, I am not a hypocrite if I rail against looting electronics, but help myself to the DVD players in the window since the window as the store burns down since it was already smashed for the HDTVs and the store set ablaze.

          •  your 'care' (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Miss Blue

            does the chickens no effin good at all. All it does is make you feel better. So you are uncaring and selfish. I'd rather someone look at their actions head on and admit to them than cry around when convenient as they stuff themselves with meat factory food.

            ya know, i think it's ok to be for more humane conditions for animals, but all these hyper accusations only demonstrates gross hypocrisy and lack of intelligence.

            All extremists are irrational and should be exposed

            by SeanF on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 02:52:07 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Except I don't eat meat. I spend many hours (6+ / 0-)

              every week fighting to save animals from pain and sufffering - and get to see them experiencing it, too.  So I'm unable to just pretend it doesn't exist.  The flippant attitude towards expressed by several here is truly unbelievable to me.  No, it doesn't make me feel better.  I wish like hell I hadn't even read this article, so I wouldn't have had to see how hard and uncaring some of these people, whose articles and comments I've read and enjoyed, really are.  It's ruined my day - one of those I didn't actually have to observe the cruelty and inhumanity people elect to show the most helpless among us.  Think you should get all the facts before you accuse me of hypocrisy or lack of intelligence.

              •  balance is good (2+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                Miss Blue, Leggy Starlitz

                your responses in this diary have been unbalanced. If this is your crazy passion, great, but realize you are over the top and don't demand that everyone have the same degree of crazy passion for this that you do.

                All extremists are irrational and should be exposed

                by SeanF on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 03:09:13 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Okay, I'll grant you that. (0+ / 0-)

                  The passion flared and I went overboard.  But the flippant comments, with people supporting them, was not what I expected to see from this group, and I lost it.  I don't expect the same degree of passion - but one little ounce of compassion.  Is that too much to hope for?  Guess I'll either leave the site or decide to never open another article referencing animals, so I can close my eyes to the total lack of compassion in people I was getting to respect and enjoy.  I really did think the mindset was above that of the greedy, selfish neocons.

              •  yes (3+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                eugene, Elise, Dave the Rave

                people do horrible things. When I was a kid I volunteered for a summer at the local animal shelter. At the end of the summer there was a big scandal - turned out the director/vet had been killing the animals in cruel ways and pocketing the money that was to be used to put the animals down. That was a tough lesson to learn early and I think it really stuck with me. That stuff, this stuff, it's hard to take because they are all so defenseless against humans.

                Some people are sick and it does need to be talked about. Thank you for what you do.

                "So long as governments set the example of killing their enemies, private individuals will occasionally kill theirs." Elbert Hubbard (1856-1915)

                by sassy texan on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 03:11:25 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  It's a problem of presentation (5+ / 0-)

                You've been calling everyone who disagrees with you neocons or assholes or all sorts of other things.  You're not recognizing anyone else's points.  You're not presenting yourself well at all.

                It's not that people don't care.  But when you tell someone that if they don't care as much as you about your particluar issue then they're no better than Dick Cheney, well, that's fightin' words around here.

                By modern definitions, Jesus was a terrorist.

                by Leggy Starlitz on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 03:19:35 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I know, I know. My emotions (2+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  myrealname, vox humana

                  carried me way far away.  And that's the worst thing you can do when you would like to convert people to your way of thinking in order to reduce the suffering.  But I wasn't using that over the top languague to anyone except those that expressed a very hard, uncaring and flippant attitude.  To not care about the suffering of anyone or anything, be it an animal, kids, old folds, Iraqis, whatever is like raising a red flag.  For some reason, that first post just sent me off, and I was running.  Took me awhile to cool down, and I do apologize for losing control.  Trouble is, part of me still wants to say it.  Maybe I'd better just get out of this article.

                  •  I feel ya (2+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    myrealname, Dave the Rave

                    I'm horrified that animals are treated so badly in those huge mega-farms.  

                    •  In defense of Gustynpip (0+ / 0-)

                      This is Gustynpip husband,

                      I just want to tell everyone that I respects my wifes opinion on not eating meat.  For me there is nothing more tastier than Prime Rib.  I also enjoy good Beer, and scratching my balls in front of the TV.  The point is that you can be socially responsible without sacrificing things in life.  For one I try to buy meat that is raised locally, not on big meat farms, guess what? the best steaks you get are from your small farmer.  I also have taking a liking to her veggie burgers,  they are actually pretty good.  Take a look on the package, you can eat two even three burgers without any cholestrol fear.  In other words, enjoy a few extra beers.

                      Any questions?

              •  'Hard and uncaring' (0+ / 0-)

                See, this is the problem.  

                All this emotional angst and romanticized drama about the plight of the poor bunnies and chickens is in no way rooted in the reality of Planet Earth, which in no way even recognizes the concept of "cruelty".

                Nature is red in tooth and claw.  And WE ARE IT:  just like all other creatures, we consume life, and are in turn consumed, if not by lions, then by microbes.  That's the way it works in the natural world.  And much as we might like to believe that our recently-developed forebrains make us exempt from all that violent mayhem, it really doesn't.  

                The way the natural world works is violent.  Often, the most successful species are the ones with the greatest and most devastating capacity for violence:  cats, for example.

                "Cruelty" isn't a concept that is understood by any species other than humans.  Even animals we like to think of as "higher" and "intelligent", like dolphins and gorillas, will kill one anothers' children just to reduce competition with their own offspring.

                So when you put the back of your hand to your forehead and give a soliloquoy about this "hard and uncaring" group of people, I tend to want to say:  get real.  On Planet Earth, "cruelty" isn't a recognized issue in the natural world.  So long as you live here, you might consider giving up on projecting your abstract ideals on a world where they don't fit.

                The DLC was created to prevent the takeover of the Democratic Party by Democrats.

                by Dracowyrm on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 04:14:49 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  But surely: (0+ / 0-)

                  One of the main problems we have with Republicans is their cruelty. Correct?

                  •  Very late reply, but (0+ / 0-)

                    actually, no.

                    I have a problem with Reps because their priorities are twisted.  Most of them aren't "cruel" so much as uncaring about anyone but themselves and their own little circle of family.  Most Reps aren't sadistic, they just don't give a damn about people outside of their own, about the natural world, about beauty, or about the nature of the society they live in.  The only exception is the Christian Rong, which is just delusional--those people genuinely believe that the arbitrary and inflexible set of rules set down by their mean-spirited god (as interpreted by those who tell them how to think) are a framework for a better world.  For a lot of them, of course, I suspect the same selfishness is in play--they'll do whatever to whomever so long as they believe it will get them out of having to die and disappear forever.

                    "Cruelty" doesn't enter into it.  Cruelty implies actually wanting to cause suffering.  Most Reps don't want to do that--they just don't care if they do, or deny that they do, or say there is justice in it, somehow.

                    The DLC was created to prevent the takeover of the Democratic Party by Democrats.

                    by Dracowyrm on Tue Aug 29, 2006 at 12:02:51 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

      •  Oh please. (7+ / 0-)

        Take a valium.

        Why don't you direct your outrage where it belongs - at the factory farms committing the so-called abuse.

        It's a big world and we can only do so much.  B&J is definitely one of the better companies around.

        I have made my living, for 40+ years, off horses.  Raised five kids that way.  They are my livelihood, and get treated extremely well.  And still, PETA has bashed me because I ride them.  

        I have no sympathy for you folks that go completely overboard.

        "But your flag decal won't get you into heaven anymore"--Prine 4070+ dead Americans. Bring them home.

        by Miss Blue on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 02:38:15 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  and I find it amusing that people think (7+ / 0-)

        dogs and cats are treated SO much better!!

        I mean really...I'm rescuing that dog tomorrow. Why? Because PEOPLE were trying to run her over. What kind of disgusting behavior is that?!

        People who treat animals poorly have serious issues.

    •  Not sure how to (16+ / 0-)

      respond to such a short comment.

      Is the argument that since chickens are food it doesn't matter how they are treated? Or that chickens are incapable of feeling pain?

      I think that reducing animal suffering is better than contributing to animal suffering, if one can do so in a healthy way.

    •  they're not horsies either (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Elise, myrealname, vox humana

      (agreed that this diary is aimed incorrectly since ben&jerry's isn't ben&jerry's any more--but if the NEW company still pretends to deny factory farming then file papers about truth in advertising or something)

      however, my response is to the 'they're not dogs or cats get over it.' hey! they're not horsies either!

      you may be looking at this problem from a pet-centric (heh) perspective. but, consider FOOD. wonderful-keepus-alive-and-functioning-substance.  it makes no sense to consume chickens that have spent their short lives in agony, debeaked, declawed, broken-wing bones, pumped with hormones antibiotics and steroids.

      FOOD. glorious fooooooood! i'd like to try it.
      factory farming doesn't produce food. it just makes money.

    •  So what? (7+ / 0-)

      They are creatures with whom we share this earth.  They feel pain and fear.  They are food for those who eat them.  Dogs are food for those who eat them also.  We are ourselves food for carnivores.  And, in the end, all of us will end up being food for worms.

    •  Sorry. Chickens are animals. (7+ / 0-)

      I'd LOVE to hear your explanation of why chickens are any LESS valuable than dogs or cats are.

      Of course...there isn't an explanation...but whatever.

      I'm a vegetarian. I obviously don't believe in forcing others to become vegetarians. However, I do believe that animals deserve to be treated humanely. And just so you know, my father (who is getting to the age where he needs to watch what he eats a LOT more) just switched from buying pre-packaged, factory-farmed chicken to buying free-range chicken. Not only has his doctor told him that the free-range chicken is better for him, but he also says that it tastes MUCH better than the other pre-packaged factory-farmed type.

      Last I checked, chickens (or any other farm animal for that matter) don't naturally live in a small box where they can't walk or go to find their own food. That simply isn't natural.

      If you want to eat food from animals who have been force-fed one another's shit along with antibiotics fine, but don't pretend that that's GOOD for people and don't pretend that it isn't harmful or inhumane towards those animals.

      Responses like this are appalling. Your opinion is akin to someone saying we don't need to care for people in other countries because they aren't like us. An animal is an animal. There isn't a fucking hierarchy...and many people have chickens as pets.

    •  Animals and fowl raised in inhumane conditions (6+ / 0-)

      like wire cages with no room to move,will be experiencing stress. Stress has adverse effects on the health of the animal or fowl. Excessive amounts of adrenalin  is one way the animal or fowl attmpts to compensate, adjust to the punishing conditions. These stress chemicals contaminate the body of the bird or animal that you eat. So you then ingest chemicals that contaminate you. A factory chicken is under this stress its entire life.

      When you hunt, and I mean hunt for meat, for dinner so to speak, you need to make a clean kill. Shooting the deer in the stomach and having it die an agonized death, well, ask any experienced hunter if he wants to eat that meat. A bullet between the eyes to the brain is a fast painless death involving no stress, no adrenalin for flight or fight, and the meat is good. You can taste the difference and no hunter wants everyone to know he didn't shoot straight or well and so contaminated the meat from his one allowed kill for the season.

      And dogs and cats exist all over in these situations in breeding mills. My HoneyBee lived 3 years in a cage and walked on wire. That's so when they go potty the cage can just be hosed down, easy clean up see. Her feet were crippled and her toes and toenails curled to supoort her body. She fell over on her side the first time I placed her on her feet in the grass.

      It's really a matter of consciousness, and a person's level of consciousness. Any Buddhist would get it immediately.

      For the best meat, raise the animal organically yourself, and slit its throat when the time comes. If you treat the animal well, it will not know fear. When it enters the stock tunnel at the slaughter house, it can smell the blood and fear and it knows it's in danger. Adrenalin starts flowing. And that's the meat you eat all the time. I don't believe red meat is bad for you. I think it's the karma associated with the death of the animal that is transmitted to the eater. Beef undergoes stress for but a short time of its life, but chickens endure it the entire time. Go see Napolean Dynamite for just its one scene in the chicken factory. I have not deliberately sought out chicken since I saw that movie. And there is no preaching in it. It is just about seeing.

      And I guess I might add that the antibiotics and harmones given the animals go in our bodies. did anyone wonder why children have high amounts of harmones in their bodies? And why ten year old girls are going into puberty?And women having record amounts of breast cancer? (Breast cancer is associated, not caused by, is correlated with high amounts of estrogen.)

      FUKUOKA: Part of my purpose is to create a society where no one has to do anything.PARACELSUS:So then, you wormy and lousy Sophist...

      by abbeysbooks on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 03:53:06 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  they were sold a long time ago (