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This weekend in D. C. during the anti-war demonstration, ending thirty-four years of silence, Jane Fonda spoke out against the war (of the military profiteers that never really ends).

Here's a video of her speech (she follows Sean Penn).  After all these years, she is still full of eloqence, full of fire, full of genuine human being.

http://onegoodmove.org/...

PS  If you're too young to have an appreciation of her acting ability, I hope you'll rent a copy of one of her films. "Klute" is my favorite.

Originally posted to caomoo on Sat Jan 27, 2007 at 08:23 PM PST.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Sigh (7+ / 0-)

    The anti-war movement is better off without Jane Fonda's "support". What she did back during the Vietnam War--literally giving aid and comfort to the enemy--makes her radioactive. She's the last person that those opposed to the war want speaking for their cause. In my honest opinion she's doing more harm to the cause that she cares about than she is helping.

    "Hanoi Jane" is the ;ast person who should be at these rallies. She has just given more ammunition to those who support the surge.

    http://www.keen.com/jiacinto For DC related travel advice, please visit that link.

    by jiacinto on Sat Jan 27, 2007 at 08:25:27 PM PST

    •  I concur. (6+ / 0-)

      Whether or not her intentions were good in the 1960s, there are plenty of big-name anti-war people today who could be used in her place for such speaking engagements.  All she is going to do is conjure up images in people's minds of her sitting on that North Vietnamese anti-aircraft gun.  Not good.

      •  wow. Nice job in having the media make your (9+ / 0-)

        history and opinions for you. Please take another look. Please........

        •  No (4+ / 0-)

          The point is that that is the image that most Americans have of Jane Fonda. The negative image that she has isn't going to change.

          http://www.keen.com/jiacinto For DC related travel advice, please visit that link.

          by jiacinto on Sat Jan 27, 2007 at 08:38:39 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  and up to about 6 months ago the 'mrrcans (6+ / 0-)

            also did not have a clue that they hated this fucking war.

          •  "most Americans" (5+ / 0-)

            You have a source or finger on the pulse of what "most Americans" really think of Jane Fonda or what the MSM has repeatedly suggested "most Americans" think of her?

            I guess her negative image was not weighty enough to interfere with sales of her exercise videos.

            "And tell me how does god choose whose prayers does he refuse?" Tom Waits

            by madaprn on Sat Jan 27, 2007 at 08:44:29 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  What planet are you on? (5+ / 0-)

              Do you honestly think that Jane Fonda is going to be an effective spokeswoman for those who want to change the policy vis a vis the war in Iraq? What this woman is known for is going to North Vietnam and openly voicing support for the North Vietnamese.

              If the goal is to get mainstream support to facilitate a change in Iraq policy, having Jane Fonda front and center is counterproductive to that goal. It's going to alienate mainstream people.

              I don't know how you honestly think that someone like Jane Fonda is going to generate positive attention. It just seems so illogical to me.

              http://www.keen.com/jiacinto For DC related travel advice, please visit that link.

              by jiacinto on Sat Jan 27, 2007 at 08:54:25 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  Yes, it can change, (7+ / 0-)

            especially at this time, unless.....we progressives keep buying into the old shoe salesmen (neo-con) script that was created for us.  It's time we change the script and re-surrect respect for those that did what we're trying to do 40+ years ago, and that includes Senator Kerry.

            "It does not require many words to speak the truth." Chief Joseph - Nez Perce

            by Gabriele Droz on Sat Jan 27, 2007 at 08:45:08 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  BIG Difference between Kerry and Fonda (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              tigerdog, The Angry Rakkasan

              Kerry fought in Vietnam for the US. He served his country honroably. On the other hand Fonda went off and literally gave aid and comfort to the enemy, while the US had POWs. Maybe she was wrong and regrets what she did; but, in all honesty, she's not the image that those opposed to the war want to have as the "poster girl" for their cause.

              http://www.keen.com/jiacinto For DC related travel advice, please visit that link.

              by jiacinto on Sat Jan 27, 2007 at 08:51:51 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  um, did she buy them shit from IKEA?! (5+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                sj, Euroliberal, Gabriele Droz, chigh, TomP

                "aid and comfort"?! wow. Again, you need to stop putting your ear to shit. Just stop it. Thank you in advance.

              •  Well I'm sorry, (7+ / 0-)

                I'm the kind that forgives mistakes young people make, especially when they're truly trying to make a difference - like end a bloody war.

                We're all needed nowadays, and it's the true motives behind our actions that should allow us all to forgive some things.

                "It does not require many words to speak the truth." Chief Joseph - Nez Perce

                by Gabriele Droz on Sat Jan 27, 2007 at 08:59:11 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  We're family, you know. (4+ / 0-)

                  Anti-war family.  And it would do us well to model what that means - like internal wars against those who have made mistakes but have a lot to offer.

                  "Pain carves Wisdom"

                  "It does not require many words to speak the truth." Chief Joseph - Nez Perce

                  by Gabriele Droz on Sat Jan 27, 2007 at 09:01:48 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I'm glad Jane Fonda opposes (9+ / 0-)

                    this war.  Special thanks to Gabriele Droz and hugs for puppies for their comments defending Jane Fonda.

                    I get so tired of folks worrying about how we'll "look" to the media or to right wing parts of America.  Do what is right and stop worrying about how it may look.  Jane supports peace (as she did with the Vietnam War).  I welcome her help in fighting this war also.  

                    Stop the War NOW!

                    by TomP on Sat Jan 27, 2007 at 09:17:06 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  And she's going to be counterproductive (3+ / 0-)

                      Public relations is a major part of winning the political war. This is something that the left has yet to fully understand. One of the major reasons why the right has been so effective in winning the public policy debates with the American people and achieving victory at the ballot box is because they actually understand public relations. They understand the role of media and having an effective PR strategy.

                      Having Jane Fonda play a public role in those who want to change the US Goverment's policy toward Iraq is counterproductive. Rightly or wrong she brings in negative PR. Why some people don't realize that, I don't know.

                      http://www.keen.com/jiacinto For DC related travel advice, please visit that link.

                      by jiacinto on Sat Jan 27, 2007 at 09:25:47 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  so the right understands this shit huh? (3+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        sj, Gabriele Droz, TomP

                        Then why are they rolling out Cheney?!

                      •  Do what is right. Those who worry about others (4+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        sj, Gabriele Droz, chigh, hugs for puppies

                        being "counterproductive" often are being exactly that themselves with their "concerns."

                        I stand with Jane Fonda.  I am glad she spoke.  

                        I disagree with your view of PR.  I guess we differ on a fundamental point here.  

                        We can have two antiwar movements: one with good PR and one that lets all opponents of the war work for peace and justice.    

                        Stop the War NOW!

                        by TomP on Sat Jan 27, 2007 at 09:32:58 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  I don't think that Jane Fonda was "right" (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          skippythebox, Tuba Les

                          I don't care what she thinks about this current war. I find what she did 40 years ago to be dispresctful, unpatriotic, and treasonous.

                          I don't understand how so many of you can't grasp the simple fact that Fonda isn't going to invite positive media attention. She's just more fodder for the far right to demonize the left.

                          http://www.keen.com/jiacinto For DC related travel advice, please visit that link.

                          by jiacinto on Sat Jan 27, 2007 at 09:35:39 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  I disagree but your feelings are (6+ / 0-)

                            yours, as mine are mine.

                            Anyone against the war in Vietnam was accused of being "disprespectful, unpatriotic, and treasonous." I certainly was as a teenager.

                            Many people got their heads beat in in peaceful protests.  Americans were murdered by the government in protests.  See, e.g., Kent State; Jackson State (Spring 1970)    

                            We will all be called traitors again by some people for fighting against this war.  

                            Jane Fonda never was charged with treason.  This is because she did not commit treason.  I do not believe she committed treason.  Nor does the authority that matters: The United States Government.

                            Anyway, you and I lack sufficient common ground on this issue to ever come to a shared position, I think.  I think we should agree to disagree.

                            That said, I am glad you oppose this war.  I'm glad we are on the same side in trying to save the lives of Americans in Iraq by stating "redeployment" home.

                            Stop the War NOW!

                            by TomP on Sat Jan 27, 2007 at 10:00:28 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Dude..seriously (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            The Angry Rakkasan, gfv6800

                             Yes people were called all sorts of names back then.  But only a very, very, very few actually flew to Hanoi, did a USO show for the guys killing OUR GUYS YOU KNOW THE ONES YOU WANTED TO GET OUT OF THERE, and then did some nice little broadcasts for them!

                            If it was not treason then it was so dangerously close TO IT that it is not really worthy of debate!  The North Vietnamese derived substantial propaganda value from her visit and actions, that can be seen as "aiding".  

                            She went there as a political statement, to put a finger in the eye so to speak of the United States.  She did what she did to embarrass the government.  

                            And that is not looked kindly upon by the vast majority of Americans, especially during a time when their kids are being blasted to crap by the guys she is visiting!

                            There is a correct way to do things, and that visit definitely was NOT IT!  It did substantial damage to the left of this country as a WHOLE!  Or were you not paying attention during the rest of the 70's and 80's when she and her visit were used as a rallying cry to stir up the right?

                            Hells bells my Great grandfather wanted her DEAD and he was about as close to a socialist without being one as you can get!  He was also profoundly against Vietnam!  And he was not an exception.  

                            It was one of the few things the liberal side of my family could agree with the conservative side on!  She went over the line.

                            And keep in mind that it is people like that you have to convince to be on your side or you are not going to save one single life!  The more you look like a traitor the less they are going to listen to you and the more they are going to listen to your opponents!

                          •  ...40 years ago... n/t (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            sj

                            "It does not require many words to speak the truth." Chief Joseph - Nez Perce

                            by Gabriele Droz on Sat Jan 27, 2007 at 10:55:25 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                        •  Tom, (0+ / 0-)

                          just wanted to thank you for your contribution to the diary and your spirited defense of jane.  atb. . .

                      •  It's not going to change minds and (3+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        sj, Gabriele Droz, hugs for puppies

                        hearts of the American people that she was there. It happened - she was there.  People want out of war and sound policy.  Those who feel strongly about Fonda will grumble but so what.  Life is full of contradictions and turns.  

                        And as another poster said, they would have found  someone or something to rag on.  It should have a short shelf life.  

                        I have no patience with people who grow old at 60 just because they are entitled to a bus pass. Mary Wesley, British novelist

                        by xanthe on Sat Jan 27, 2007 at 09:40:05 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                    •  I welcome anyones help (0+ / 0-)

                      but the best help that she could give is to stay away.  Geez Louise do you guys have anymore tactical or strategic sense then god gave a door knob?  And when I say door knob I am of course referring to Georgie porgie....

                      It is not about how we LOOK to the right wing, it is about not shooting ourselves in the foot!  And having Jane Fonda at an anti-war demonstration blows at least three iddle piddies to kingdom come.

          •  Most have forgiven Jane n/t (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            chigh

            "The job of a citizen is to keep your mouth open." - Gunter Grass

            by Sigrid of Horg on Sun Jan 28, 2007 at 04:55:06 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  Here. (5+ / 0-)

          This is what Wiki says about Jane Fonda:

          In Vietnam, Fonda was photographed seated on an anti-aircraft battery used against American aircrews. She also participated in several radio broadcasts on behalf of the Communist regime, asking US aircrews to consider the consequences of their actions.

           It goes on to say:

          During this visit she also visited American prisoners of war (POWs); and brought back messages from them to their families. When cases of torture began to emerge among POWs returning to the United States, Fonda called the returning POWs "hypocrites and liars". She added, "These were not men who had been tortured. These were not men who had been starved. These were not men who had been brainwashed." On the subject of torture in general, Fonda told The New York Times in 1973, "I'm quite sure that there were incidents of torture... but the pilots who were saying it was the policy of the Vietnamese and that it was systematic, I believe that's a lie."

           Now Jane Fonda has always said her actions were misconstrued.  But I gotta say, if Cindy Sheehan were visiting Iraqi insurgents, getting photographed with their weaponry, do you think that would be appropriate?  What if they allowed her to visit their kidnapped Americans?

          •  1. Do you think she was wrong for her to (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Gabriele Droz, TomP

            advise our military to start thinking?

            1. um, yeah, states that torture are fucking evil and fucking sick and also lie and use prop'gandy-i.a. to fuck with their people or um, lets just say, a movie star. So again..........
            •  oops. sorry for the bad typing. n/t (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Gabriele Droz, TomP
            •  I'm not completely (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              cosette, txlosthorn

              clear on what you're getting at, but I do understand that Fonda, in her idealistic naivete, got sucked into some compromising positions by the North Vietnamese.  And I do appreciate her sentiment in trying to end the war.  But in war, as in politics and public relations, there are no second chances.  You have to live with the decisions you make, for better or worse.  Another expression this brings to mind is: "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions."  While Jane may not end up there, she certainly forever srewed up her credibility on all things relating to war.

              BTW, none of this is personal Hugs for Puppies.  I love dogs and my parents just adopted their third abandoned stray--a pit bull puppy.  Thanks for doing what you do.

              •  She was used to a point. (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Gabriele Droz, TtexwiTyler

                She also used them to show a human face on the folks we were using disgusting weapons against. Your problem should not be with her. She did a bold and needed thing. Of course the smear machine was full steam even then and still to this day. Your problem should be with our system of war for money. We never intended to win that war. We never meant to win this one. We only go to war to create more enemies. Period. Future wars are amazing for the wealthy. Amazing.

                Thank your parents for us. We love to hear stories of folks who have shown true compassion and love by taking in an animal that needs extra care and patience. It is not easy by a long shot. We brought back a pit bull mix from MS after we helped the local shelters during Katrina and we still are trying to work with him so that one day we can rehouse him. Again, let your parents know that they are thanked by us.

              •  AR, (0+ / 0-)

                just a note to thank you for your informative contributions to this diary.  we don't agree on this point, but our dialogue was a learning experience.  thanks. . .

            •  You can do the advising at HOME (0+ / 0-)

              but the second you are in the country that is killing your fellow countrymen you shut your fucking piehole!  You give the guys killing your countrymen nothing that they can use against your countrymen EVER!

              You can hate the governments actions, you can disagree with their policy you can even call them evil scum sucking sons of bitches that deserve to rot in hell...

              But when visiting the nation of the enemy, which in itself is on the wrong side of poor taste in wartime; you do not give that government the slightest bit of anything that can be used against your COUNTRYMEN, the poor bastards in uniform who are NOT the government dick-heads that you have a beef with!

              The location of the dissent changes the context OF the dissent.  What would be in this country fully acceptable and protected political speech becomes treasonous when said in the capital of the nation we are fighting against.

              •  why were we there again?!!!!! (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Euroliberal, Gabriele Droz, TomP

                oh right, a fucking lie. next....

              •  You are repeating right wing hate. (8+ / 0-)

                "Treason" is easy for you to throw around.  

                Why this thread is about Jane Fonda amazes me, since the attackers/commenters appear to wish to tar the movement against the war in Iraq with 30 year old issues with Ms. Fonda.

                The war in Iraq was built on lies, deliberate lies, by a President and Vice President who defiled their oaths to uphold the constiution.  That, may friend, is far more treason than anything with Ms. Fonda in 1972.

                Bush falsified intelligence to create the pretext for an invasion of choice.  People continue to die because of their lies.  How many more Americans died today on Iraq? And you are worried about Jane Fonda in 1972?  Give me a fucking break.

                Stop the War NOW!

                by TomP on Sat Jan 27, 2007 at 09:24:23 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Tom, (6+ / 0-)

                  Wasn't the Vietnam War also built on "lies, deliberate lies"?  I'm not an ace at history, but I do seem to remember some controversy surrounding an incident in the Gulf of Tonkin that was used as a pretext for all out war.

                  •  Good point. In the Fog of War, the movie (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Gabriele Droz, hugs for puppies

                    with McNamara, it appears that the Navy misinterpeted what was happening, although it could have been staged.  I'm unclear, although there is a lot of wrongness invovled in the whole escalation.

                    I think there are some differences.  I read David Halberstams book, "The Best and the Brightest" 30 years ago or more.  It shows a lot of mistakes.  I think there were errors of judgment in a bipolar world.  Perhaps lies, but Bush's are so much more deliberate.  Bush wanted a war.  We stumbled into Vietnam bit by bit.  We misperceived a lot -- Cold War mentality -- with Vietnam.  With Iraq, we did not care -- war was the policy and, as the Downing Street memo said, the "intelleigence was fixd around the policy."

                    It has been so long since I looked at the Gulf of Tonkin.  It would be ineresting to read what historians now say.  

                    Thanks, good comment.          

                    Stop the War NOW!

                    by TomP on Sat Jan 27, 2007 at 09:44:40 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                •  Bingo - Tom (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Gabriele Droz, TomP, hugs for puppies

                  I have no patience with people who grow old at 60 just because they are entitled to a bus pass. Mary Wesley, British novelist

                  by xanthe on Sat Jan 27, 2007 at 09:44:01 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Oh my gawd (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  The Angry Rakkasan
                  There is nothing about what I said that is repeating "right wing hate"!  At the time of Janes trip to Hanoi she pissed off a goodly portion of MAINSTREAM America and a sizable portion of what was considered the "left" of our parents and grandparents!

                  The only ones she didn't tick off were the members of the more radical new left in this country.

                  The reason that people have a problem with MS. Fonda in this capacity is because she dredges up those memories and detracts from the message at this point!

                  She is DAMAGED goods and whoever invited her to the event should be taken out back and soundly slapped upside the brain bucket until the light finally switches on in their head.  

                  Because having her there provides all the background noise needed to drowned out all the other voices in that demonstration.

                  I do not throw the term "treason" out there lightly.  Jane made the trip to Hanoi to make a political statement about the war.  Now anyone bright enough to realize the political ramifications of that trip is also bright enough to realize how it could be used by people actively engaged in killing their fellow countrymen.

                  Or they are so grossly naive that they lack any credibility.

                •  Oh my gawd (0+ / 0-)
                  There is nothing about what I said that is repeating "right wing hate"!  At the time of Janes trip to Hanoi she pissed off a goodly portion of MAINSTREAM America and a sizable portion of what was considered the "left" of our parents and grandparents!

                  The only ones she didn't tick off were the members of the more radical new left in this country.

                  The reason that people have a problem with MS. Fonda in this capacity is because she dredges up those memories and detracts from the message at this point!

                  She is DAMAGED goods and whoever invited her to the event should be taken out back and soundly slapped upside the brain bucket until the light finally switches on in their head.  

                  Because having her there provides all the background noise needed to drowned out all the other voices in that demonstration.

                  I do not throw the term "treason" out there lightly.  Jane made the trip to Hanoi to make a political statement about the war.  Now anyone bright enough to realize the political ramifications of that trip is also bright enough to realize how it could be used by people actively engaged in killing their fellow countrymen.

                  Or they are so grossly naive that they lack any credibility.

          •  Sheehan (0+ / 0-)

            She has been criticized for visiting Venezuela and Cuba.

        •  Why I have seen the film of her on the gun (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          cosette, Tuba Les

          are you saying that I should not trust my "lying eyes"?

          She got used in a very bad way by the North Vietnamese.

        •  No. (4+ / 0-)

          My dad was a pilot in Vietnam, we even lived in guam during the end of it, and he just swung Democratic, registered and everything for the first time in years becuase Bush screwed things up.  Jane was HATED in my household.  

          She went to the other side, sat on an artillary weapon that was pointed toward the southern position.  Meeting with the people who killed my neighbors and enslaved the people they eventually conquered would never do anything for me.

          Sometimes the personality is too large, it's counter-productive.  I can guarantee the Democratic party just lost votes on this one.  

          (And quite frankly, I want to WIN, I'll worry about being right when we can sit back and relax a little.)

          •  so, we went into that war based on a proven lie (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Euroliberal, Gabriele Droz

            same as this one. Same as all the rest. Your father, who was drafted, chooses to HATE her instead of the scumbags that lied to him and put his life at risk. Odd.

            •  Put yourself in their position (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              lilorphant, skippythebox

              They were fighting in the war. Whether they supported it or not isn't the issue. Put yourself in the position of somone fighting the North Vietnamese. I can fully understand why people who were being shot at by the North Vietnamese would hate a woman who openly sided with them and stood by the gun pointed towaard the south.

              http://www.keen.com/jiacinto For DC related travel advice, please visit that link.

              by jiacinto on Sat Jan 27, 2007 at 09:37:44 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  Not drafted-a USAF pilot over 400 missions. (0+ / 0-)

              He flew over positions of the enemy while our troops were under attack, and dropped bombs on them to prevent US casualties.  Had he not, many more of our servicemen would have been killed.  Sometimes you have to live.  Sometimes it is about life or death, regardlesss of the politics that sent you wherever you are.  So yeah the pilots probably idd more to save US lives than the politicians, but she cozied up to the other side, even met with POW pilots while dining with their captors.

              The politics that got us their are irrelevant when you have thousands of guys getting their asses blown up under fire.  When you have fellow pilots in POW camps, guys that you know personally, ate with, trained with, and some girl goes over there and says they are being treated like mere detainees, when you know they have been tortured and starved.  

              Most of the POWS that she claimed were being treated so excellently were pilots.  It is up to the voters and their representatives to engage or not.  The voters continued to support that war,  much as those who got Bush into the presidents seat.  

              I don't think the military hates her so much for her views or intentions, but her ACTIONS.  
              They were directly antagonistic to the military,  the troops on the ground and especially in the air.  
               

        •  thanks (0+ / 0-)

          "hugs" for your informative comments in this diary.  wishing you all the best. . .

    •  Bologna, (9+ / 0-)

      Why is it that we Liberals still feel compelled to repeat the pictures painted by NeoCons during the Vietnam War?

      She was full of idealism, like many of our young people are now today.  She was courageous, and wanted to make a difference to end the Vietnam war.

      She's got my "hats off" for trying.  She was villified by the same folks who today call us "terrorists".  How old are you?

      Are you young, and just don't know the history, or are you older, sold on the smears from the same people that plague us now?

      Take another look, and try to put it into perspective.

      "It does not require many words to speak the truth." Chief Joseph - Nez Perce

      by Gabriele Droz on Sat Jan 27, 2007 at 08:42:19 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I'm 28 years (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        cosette, Gabriele Droz

        Again I am not saying that Fonda doesn't have good intentions. Rightly or wrongly, however, to all too many Americans, the image of her appearing with the North Vietnamese still lurks in their minds. Again I concede that she might have been naive, idealistic, and impressonabile.

        But most people aren't going to see it that way. As someone else in this thread stated there are no second chances in public relations. The image of Jane Fonda in North Vietnam will forever make her "damaged goods". Is this fair? Maybe not, but that is the image that registers with most pepole.

        I don't agree with her actions. I wouldn't support someone who went to Iraq, stood up next to Muqtada Al-Sadr (Sp?), openly sided with the insurgents, and blasted America. I wouldn't agree with that person and would honestly repudiate him or her for openly siding with the Insurgents, the same people who are killing American soldiers.

        Again I will perhaps concede that Fonda might not have known any better. I myself do not carry any dislike for her. However, among veterans of that era and others who have relatived in the armed services, they may not be--in fact, they probably aren't--as charitable to Fonda.

        http://www.keen.com/jiacinto For DC related travel advice, please visit that link.

        by jiacinto on Sat Jan 27, 2007 at 09:10:53 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  I don’t think anyone can say (6+ / 0-)

      whether she’s helpful or a negative.

      Sure, the wing-nut blowhards will have a party but if it’s not her it will just be something else.

      The thing I notice is all the older people in those pictures. During Vietnam that was not the case. I think the younger

      I’m not ready to deny her a voice.

    •  You actually think (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      sj, Gabriele Droz, TomP, hugs for puppies

      that support for Bush's surge is going to go up because Jane Fonda spoke at a rally?

      Do you really think that?

      "Space. It seems to go on and on forever. But then you get to the end and a gorilla starts throwing barrels at you." -- Fry, Futurama

      by LithiumCola on Sat Jan 27, 2007 at 09:23:35 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Without addressing the public perception of Jane (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      The Angry Rakkasan

      Fonda as a "speaker for peace," I will give a personal opinion that I would avoid any event offering her a platform.  

      I support jiacinto's statement:  '"Hanoi Jane" is the [l]ast person who should be at these rallies. She has just given more ammunition to those who support the surge.'

      Well said!

    •  Iraq=Vietnam (0+ / 0-)

      They are connected by Fonda's appearance.  Attention, even negative attenion gets the equation out there.

    •  Jiacinto, (0+ / 0-)

      Amigo, you and I don't agree on this one, but, in any case, I want to thank you very much for your spirited participation in this diary.

  •  Klute is a great film. (8+ / 0-)

    She is exquisite in that film.  

    I'm glad she came out to the DC demonstration today.  It may not have been easy for her.

    Thanks.  

    I have no patience with people who grow old at 60 just because they are entitled to a bus pass. Mary Wesley, British novelist

    by xanthe on Sat Jan 27, 2007 at 08:25:43 PM PST

  •  I totally respect Jane Fonda, (14+ / 0-)

    and the heroic role she took upon herself to help end the Vietnam War. She was villified by the right to the extend that even many of us liberals view her as a traitor to this day.

    Propaganda folks.  If we continue to villify her, what will happen to Cindy Sheehan, and all the others that stood up against the Iraq war early on?  Will we allow our bravest to become permanently smeared for standing up against something terrible, before the rest of us catch on?

    I want an email address, or a way to send her my love and congratulate her for what she did today.

    We must re-honor her.  She did what we're doing now way back then.  It's time to recognize it.

    "It does not require many words to speak the truth." Chief Joseph - Nez Perce

    by Gabriele Droz on Sat Jan 27, 2007 at 08:32:31 PM PST

    •  I am not a fan of Sheehan's any more either (0+ / 0-)

      But Fonda took it one step further. She openly gave aid and comfort to the North Vietnamese.

      I've been flamed for it, but Sheehan is no longer helping the anti-war cause. When she embraced the Palestinian cause and appeared with Hugo Chavez she became just another far left activist. At the beginning of her protest she received a lot of sympathy and was able to convey the suffering of this war to "mainstream America".

      However, when she embraced Chavez, she lost that image. She became another far-left activist. She now is causing more harm to the cause that she is promoting than helping it. She is more of a hindrance than an asset. Her fifteen minutes of fame have passed.

      This doesn't mean that I don't sympathize with the loss of her son. I can only imagine how painful it must be for her to have lost her son in this war. But there comes a point where life has to go on. Sheehan needs to now focus on moving on with her life and channeling her energies to other causees.

      http://www.keen.com/jiacinto For DC related travel advice, please visit that link.

      by jiacinto on Sat Jan 27, 2007 at 09:23:09 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  "I'm no longer a fan of Sheehan" (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        sj, Euroliberal, chigh, hugs for puppies

        I figured that.  But you were...at some point?  Don't you think you may be a little bit weak on resolve and tolerance?

        "It does not require many words to speak the truth." Chief Joseph - Nez Perce

        by Gabriele Droz on Sat Jan 27, 2007 at 09:34:58 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Why? (4+ / 0-)

          What's with all the second chances?  Cindy Sheehan was fine as a protester who'd lost a son, but as soon as she hugged away her credibility with Hugo Chavez, she lost my support too.  There are plenty of famous anti-war people who can speak eloquently at rallies who haven't screwed up like these two.  We can't win over mainstream America with spokespeople like Jane Fonda and Cindy Sheehan!  I mean, didn't anybody think to call Sean Penn?  He's sincere, he's anti-war, he's been to Iraq, he's a wonderful speaker, and most importantly, he hasn't made the same mistakes Fonda and Sheehan have.

          •  I agree with you (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            txlosthorn, The Angry Rakkasan

            Why others don't see that both Sheehan and Fonda are now libabilities, I don't know. I agree with you what you said. Both are now counterproductive to the issues that they are trying to advance. Both the Democratic Party and the anti-war movement are better off without their "support".

            http://www.keen.com/jiacinto For DC related travel advice, please visit that link.

            by jiacinto on Sat Jan 27, 2007 at 09:48:49 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  Don't you realize that it was the "far left" (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          chigh, hugs for puppies

          front-people that blew open the opportunity for the "moderate" follow-up that got us there?

          Just look: if there weren't the brave ones charging forth, laying their reputations on the line, do you really think congress and the Senate would be doing what they are now?

          It ALWAYS takes a few radical visionaries to move the agenda forward, and more often than not, they end up being villified - but they played an important role in getting the discussion and process started.

          Jane Fonda, John Kerry, plus others were those "shocking" people back then.  Cindy Sheehan and others have served that purpose this time round.

          It's a thankless job.  But they do it from their hearts, and DO end up getting things rolling for the rest of us.

          Why should we just ignore and badmouth them.  I have a larger vision than that.  I thank them for their role, even applaud them for the sacrifices they ended up living with, due to their hearts and political innocence at the time.

          "It does not require many words to speak the truth." Chief Joseph - Nez Perce

          by Gabriele Droz on Sat Jan 27, 2007 at 09:42:34 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Hate to burst your bubble but Chavez is an (2+ / 0-)

        amazing human. Sorry. That is why the U.S. has tried to kill him. That is why we sponsored to attempts to get rid of him. I still thank him for the cheap heating oil that is burning to make my house warm. Thank you Hugo. Thank you.

        •  Sigh (0+ / 0-)

          I guess that you have no issue with Chavez's authoritarian tendencies, trying to rule "by decree" (how this is different from Bush's signing statements, I don't know), trying to censor the press, trying to abolish term limits (and thus become president for life), and openly stating his desire to make Veneuzla like Cuba. I guess that you have no problem with his support for Syria, Iran, and Zimbabwe. He has openly defended Robert Mugabe. Chavez also once tried to take power in a previous coup. Chavez hardly qualifies as an "amazing human".

          I guess that you must hate capitlism and free enterprise. America has never been a socialist state. It never ceases to amaze me how some on the far left openly hate capitalism and make excuses for would-be left-wing authoritarians.

          The fact that Chavez has many apoligists on this board disgusts me. The fact that so many people seem to rationalize a would-be authortiarian leader repulses me.

          http://www.keen.com/jiacinto For DC related travel advice, please visit that link.

          by jiacinto on Sat Jan 27, 2007 at 09:41:43 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  History kid, history (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Gabriele Droz, chigh

            Next time you try to fuck with Cuba, I suggest you understand the eastern part of the world. Hugo fucked with the oil companies so we tried to get rid of him. Hmmm, sounds like Iran circa '53 and um, Iraq now. Get over the bullshit you have read and start with maybe Zinn or...shit, your far gone. Just hang out with one of the 47 million of your countrymen who have 0 health insurance. Then try to get your teeth cleaned with no dental insurance.

          •  Authoritarian Tendencies??? (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            sj, chigh, hugs for puppies

            To take charge in order to re-distribute wealth from international corporations to the people of his nation via healthcare, educaation, and a share of the oil wealth of his country?

            Well, I guess it's better to have free enterprise with CEO's getting $400 million severance packages after they've been fired.

            Where are the liberals here?  Help!!!

            "It does not require many words to speak the truth." Chief Joseph - Nez Perce

            by Gabriele Droz on Sat Jan 27, 2007 at 09:46:54 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I'm not a socialists (0+ / 0-)

              and most Americans aren't. Even most Democrats don't support widespread socialism. Chavez is trying to rule by decree and eliminate term limits. It looks like he is trying to become president for life. It never ceases to amaze me how so many people rationalize left wing thugs like Chavez.

              http://www.keen.com/jiacinto For DC related travel advice, please visit that link.

              by jiacinto on Sat Jan 27, 2007 at 09:52:29 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I don't condone ruling by decree,.. (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                sj, hugs for puppies

                but I'll hold my judgement until he begins working AGAINST his people.  So far all I see is that he's using his power to re-distribute the wealth, formerly owned by international corporations, to his people.  That's good enough for me right now.

                When he starts ripping them off, I'll get right on his ass.

                "It does not require many words to speak the truth." Chief Joseph - Nez Perce

                by Gabriele Droz on Sat Jan 27, 2007 at 09:55:16 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  He probably will (0+ / 0-)

                  Most likely, as he continues his wave of nationalization, look for corruption to take over and award his cronies control of those companies.

                  http://www.keen.com/jiacinto For DC related travel advice, please visit that link.

                  by jiacinto on Sat Jan 27, 2007 at 09:57:29 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  um, can you say the good ol' us of fucking A (2+ / 0-)

                    jackass. Jesus lord baby child loincloth. ugh. Just repeat your post and look at a picture of Reagan and both of the Bushies. Do it! now! You are just like every other fascist: you talk about your enemies while describing you. good luck.

                    •  I'm not a fascist (0+ / 0-)

                      I'm just stating that many of the undesirable traits that you find in Bush exist in Chavez. The double standard here is telling. I guess it's okay to act like Bush if you are a left-wing leader.

                      http://www.keen.com/jiacinto For DC related travel advice, please visit that link.

                      by jiacinto on Sun Jan 28, 2007 at 06:39:17 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                  •  Well, I tend to be one of those people (0+ / 0-)

                    that has an opening for the future....like...different outcomes than political forecasts?

                    Is there still room for that?

                    What if someone REALLY wanted to get his country in order to re-distribute wealth for the common good, but had to do some things to get rid of global corporate influence to do so?  Would it be okay just to watch him for a while and see if he really means it, or if it really is a power grab?

                    Hell, I don't know, but knowing what's going on right here right now,  I'm really eager to know, and especially eager to give someone a chance to prove it really IS their intent.

                    I WILL NOT BOW to the current climate of negative predictions. I insist on keeping my mind open to find good things when they happen.

                    Your train of thought eliminates any such chance.

                    If I end up being wrong, I'll join you wholeheartedly.

                    "It does not require many words to speak the truth." Chief Joseph - Nez Perce

                    by Gabriele Droz on Sat Jan 27, 2007 at 10:43:02 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

            •  Apologies (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Gabriele Droz

              I would help but it wouldn't make any difference.  I've learned that it just gives jiacinto yet another to comment to repeat his "far left" litany.  He doesn't generally have all the facts wrong but he stops absorbing when he has enough to satisfy him.  Then forms an immovable opinion.*  And he's always concerned about the PR more than the reality.  I won't engage him, but I'll cheer you on while you try.

              *I see him as a Taurus, with a Taurus ascendent and moon in Taurus.  Nothing to balance it out so he can't help it.

              The chips are down. Find your outrage.

              by sj on Sat Jan 27, 2007 at 11:42:58 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  jiacinto, (4+ / 0-)

            If I believed what I read in the U S corporate media about Chavez, I would hate him, too.  I'm very wary about this media's characterizations of anyone, especially someone like Chavez, who, to use one of Kissinger's phrases, could serve as a "contagious example" to other countries in the world.  He actually uses profits from oil sales to help the needy.  Now, that's dangerous.  Isn't it?

            •  Well (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              txlosthorn, The Angry Rakkasan

              Why have Amensty Internationl and Human Rights Watch, hardly "conservative" organizations connected to the "corporate media", have issued reports critical of Chavez?

              Why has this orgnization issued reports, albeit from 2005, critical of Chavez?

              Are they part of the corporate media too?

              http://www.keen.com/jiacinto For DC related travel advice, please visit that link.

              by jiacinto on Sat Jan 27, 2007 at 09:55:29 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  wait (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Gabriele Droz, hugs for puppies

                is what I will do to see how the people of Venezuela feel about Chavez.  Much is happening in South America as several different countries are trying new social and economic models. Hay otros mundos posibles, espero. I suggest we wait and see.  As another writer remarks, he is taking care of his people, teaching them to read and write, providing health care, and so on.  

                •  Well (0+ / 0-)
                  Again, when Mussolini was in charge, people said that the "trains ran on time". I don't care if Chavez is "taking care of the poor". His tendencies lately indicate that he is moving in an authoritarian direction. His desire to "rule by decree" and eliminate term limits for life sounds a lot like Bush. What's the difference between the two? Or is it okay because Chavez has left-leaning politics?

                  http://www.keen.com/jiacinto For DC related travel advice, please visit that link.

                  by jiacinto on Sun Jan 28, 2007 at 06:44:34 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

      •  You have absolutely no (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        hugs for puppies

        sympathy for the Palestinian people?

        I think you want these passionate people to hire PR firms.  Life is not like that - it happens - mistakes are made - people disagree, argue - march -

        We are talking about a war that could very well begin the destruction of this country (I am quite serious here) and you are talking about PR.  

        Americans are waking up to the real damage this war is causing - I don't think a PR firm is going to make much difference.

        Maybe you should give mainstream America some credit.    

        I have no patience with people who grow old at 60 just because they are entitled to a bus pass. Mary Wesley, British novelist

        by xanthe on Sat Jan 27, 2007 at 10:12:00 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  I (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Gabriele Droz, chigh

        disagree.  Sheehan is not only a Gold Star mother, she's working class, she's articulate, she's inspired.  She may have lost her "image" in the corporate media, but she didn't lose it in my book.

    •  Jane DOES rock... (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      sj, Gabriele Droz, chigh

      We all made errors of judgment when we were much younger. She's on our side. Leave it alone.

      "We do not torture." - George Bush during recent Asian visit

      by Flippant to the Last on Sat Jan 27, 2007 at 11:23:28 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Wasn't Fonda Kerry's VP Candidate? (6+ / 0-)

    And Clintons?

    Seems like the right wing will never get tired of firing up people over something she did as a kid, just like they will never stop using Ted Kennedy.

    Where is the forgiveness and grace of these right wing people??

  •  Klute is my favorite of hers also (4+ / 0-)

    I also like to hear Donald Sutherland say "Tuscarora".

    You measure a democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists. -- Abbie Hoffman

    by frostyinPA on Sat Jan 27, 2007 at 08:47:57 PM PST

  •  I heard on the radio news today... (7+ / 0-)

    a blurb about how there were protests against the protests, of course, and they played one guy saying Jane Fonda is a traitor to her country and should not be viewed as anything else and everyone else who is protesting with her obviously agrees with her, so they are all traitors, too.

    I appreciate her ability to highlight that kind of stupidity. One day people will be blathering with equal ignorance about Sean Penn.

  •  Jane's good people (7+ / 0-)

    I have no gripe with her. Long live Jane Fonda.

    Let the great world spin for ever down the ringing grooves of change. - Tennyson

    by bumblebums on Sat Jan 27, 2007 at 08:52:18 PM PST

  •  I'm still alive today.... (7+ / 0-)

    partly due to the fact that Sweet Janey had the courage and audacity to act out and say very hard to swallow, unpopular things. Yeah, I guess you could say I "started thinking" about what my role in the mass murder of a country was, came back from Viet Nam, turned myself in for drug use, and got the fuck out of the fascist controlled military of the fascist controlled government. You might even say that Jane Fonda is one of my heroes. It is so good to see her back in action!

    The only way to deal with an unfree world is to become so absolutely free that your very existence is an act of rebellion. ~Albert Camus

    by TtexwiTyler on Sat Jan 27, 2007 at 08:59:11 PM PST

  •  After Klute, I shagged my hair to look like Jane. (9+ / 0-)

    I have the deepest respect for her. She has purposely laid low in order not to bring that noise into the discussion of Iraq. But why should she lay low? A right-wing noisemaker has vilified Michael J. Fox. Do you think they would lay off Jane? Let them talk about "giving comfort to the enemy". Jane hasn't sent over 3,000 Americans to their deaths for a lie and maimed another 25,000. And, unlike Bush and Cheney, she at least had the courage to go to Vietnam.

    "It does not require many words to speak the truth." -- Chief Joseph, native American leader (1840-1904)

    by highfive on Sat Jan 27, 2007 at 09:06:11 PM PST

    •  You were (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      txlosthorn

      doing fine until the joke at the end.  Saying that Jane Fonda "went to Vietnam" is insulting to the people who were forced by the draft to go there to die or be maimed.  Had the North Vietnamese been shooting at her (as they were to the other Americans who "went to Vietnam"), I'm pretty certain she wouldn't have gone.  

      Somebody let me know if this whole thing has killed my sense of humor.

      •  Were you there? (0+ / 0-)

        I mean in Vietnam?

        "It does not require many words to speak the truth." Chief Joseph - Nez Perce

        by Gabriele Droz on Sat Jan 27, 2007 at 10:51:52 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  No, (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        sj, Gabriele Droz, txlosthorn

        insulting is the fact that people who were forced to go to Vietnam--like Bush and Cheney--used their class to get out of it and then, later, became warmongers, sending working class boys to do what they opted out of.

        And as to second chances, the fact that the Bush family assets were hit with a seizure under the Trading with the Enemy Act in 1942 doesn't seem to have slowed down the Bushes, any, at all.

      •  I mean were you yourself there (0+ / 0-)

        in Vietnam?  Just want to know since you seem to speak for the soldiers who WERE there.

        "It does not require many words to speak the truth." Chief Joseph - Nez Perce

        by Gabriele Droz on Sat Jan 27, 2007 at 11:13:27 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Umm, no. But I have done two combat tours in (0+ / 0-)

          the present war.  I've seen civilians bleed to death in front of me, I've been shot at, I've had people I know get killed, etc., etc.  So I'm pretty up to speed on what it's all about.  And more importantly, I know that if someone did in Iraq what Jane Fonda did in Vietnam, I'd be pissed.

          •  I am mystified as to how you would interpret ... (0+ / 0-)

            ... a comparison between the actions of civilians (Jane vs. Bush and Cheney) as a comparison between a civilian (Jane) and military (fighting men). The latter comparison is not valid, IMO, and would be an insult to fighting men (which is the last thing I intended).

            "It does not require many words to speak the truth." -- Chief Joseph, native American leader (1840-1904)

            by highfive on Sun Jan 28, 2007 at 10:04:49 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

    •  I agree (7+ / 0-)

      I have come to believe that the corporate media is not my media.  I cannot watch it, much less depend on it, or concur with it's characterizations.

      As a result, I no longer accept its smears--whether it's a smear of Jane Fonda for traveling to Vietnam or a more recent smear of a popular presidential candidate for "yelling too loudly."

      When we see ourselves in the corporate media, we see ourselves distorted and often vilified.

      It's time we put that mirror aside and constructed a new one for ourselves.

  •  Was not happy to see Jane Fonda at the rally. (3+ / 0-)

    I was opposed both to the Vietnam War and Fonda's actions during the war.  She allowed herself to be used stupidly by the North Vietnamese.
    Yes, she was young but she was old enough and should have been media savvy enough to refrain from what she was doing. There were many more eloquent voices out there than hers.
    She knows how divisive she is to this day and should have stayed home.

  •  When I heard she was speaking I thought it was (6+ / 0-)

    a bad idea, because of what a lightening rod she is for the right.  But watching her on c-span, I was quite moved by her presence and her speech.  There is something authentic about her.  I think it took a lot of courage.  And if you listen to what she said, she tried to take the focus off of herself.

    To the earlier commenter who pointed out that her reputation did not prevent her from becoming a huge excercise guru in the '80's -- good point.

    There are probably young people reading this who don't remember any of her public phases...actress, activist, exercise queen, Braves' fan, etc.

    another american against the war(s)

    by extradish on Sat Jan 27, 2007 at 10:14:07 PM PST

  •  Get over the 60's Fonda stuff (0+ / 0-)

    They just blew her up the way they blow things up now only now we notice it.

  •  Err... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    caomoo

       I've never got this "Jane Fonda sat on a gun" thing.
       Did she fire the gun?  Did she massacre people in a "free fire zone"?  Did she drop bombs on cities?  Did she napalm villages? Did she kill a single American or Vietnamese with her bare hands?

       You guys are talking about "symbolism".  And the biggest problem with the American mentality is that too many Americans buy into the advertiser culture which claims that symbols make their own reality.  But these symbols are manufactured for you, handed out as so many talking points.  "Jane Fonda on a gun" is a symbol.  But it's not real.  It has nothing to do with reality.  How about we declare our independence of the symbols that people want us to pay attention to, rip down the advertiser-manufactered wall of ignorance, and look at actual reality?

       Here's my way of looking at things:

    • People dying is reality.
    • Photo opportunities are not reality.

       Anybody else agree?

    •  i (0+ / 0-)

      do.  i think socrates--who refused to have anything he said written down--would too.  bravo for your comment.

      my guess is that we'll soon see a lot of symbolism in regard to iran.

      gotta make us hate iran, just like they made us hate fonda.

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