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It's sort of ironic that Biden stepped in it big time the same day he announces his exploratory committee for president. Let's recap:

“I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy,” he said. “I mean, that’s a storybook, man.”

So some are saying that an editing decision could've made the quote sound worse.

OK, I'm not a big Biden fan, so I wouldn't be disappointed to see him drop out. But I have to say this: what if the Observer punctuated casually? That is, what if there is supposed to be a comma before 'who,' making it a non-restrictive relative clause:

“I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American, who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy,” he said. “I mean, that’s a storybook, man.”

Thus he would mean Obama is both

a). the first mainstream African-American candidate for president

and

b). articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy.

It's within the realm of possibilities. But then is he saying that Carol Moseley Braun wasn't "mainstream" even though she represented the fifth largest state (in population) in the U.S. Senate? Is he saying that Jesse Jackson wasn't "mainstream" even though he won 11 primaries in 1988 and 6.9 million votes? The population of Delaware is 783,600. Heck, he won Michigan with 55% of the vote.

So either 1) he's a patronizing asshole, or 2) he's a historical revisionist asshole. Either way, he's an asshole. And either way, the racial element is inescapable.

Update: I got an email from Biden's director of online communication claiming I'm giving a "one-sided impression" of Biden. Aside from the fact that this poor guy (Eric Carbone) thinks blogs are supposed to be "fair and balanced", it's true, I've completely forgotten to write about the other side of the story -- how Biden is a bought and paid for subsidiary of MBNA. When Bank of America acquired MBNA, Biden was likely part of the package deal.

Originally posted to Daily Kos on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 10:44 AM PST.

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Comment Preferences

  •  To me, he'd be knocked out sooner or later (14+ / 0-)

    It is surprising to see him hurt himself like this, this early.

    The funny thing is, when he isn't apparently hypnotized by his own ego, he does pretty good things. I remember him standing firm and making sense quite a few times during the pre-Iraq and post-Iraq misinformation wars.

    "Think. It ain't illegal yet." - George Clinton

    by jbeach on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 10:44:59 AM PST

    •  I can't figure out why Biden keeps stepping (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ourprez08, Rex Manning

      on his dick!

      Aloha . . .

      •  That's a really cheap shot. (4+ / 0-)

        Obviously you guys weren't around when Biden presided two of the more contentious U.S. Supreme Court confirmation hearings ever, Robert Bork in 1987 and Clarence Thomas in 1991.

        Politicians and diapers need to be changed frequently -- often for the same reason.

        by KnowVox on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 11:31:03 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I well recall both events: (0+ / 0-)

          Bork (1987) and Thomas (1991)! But what's up with the racial overtones? They always make the news. I don't want this in the WH! The past 6 years are embarassing enuf, thankewverymuch!!

          Aloha. . .

          •  I don't think he meant "clean" in a racist way. (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            stephdray, Schwede, dolphin777

            I think he meant that Obama, being new to the Senate, had very little (if any) political baggage.

            Politicians and diapers need to be changed frequently -- often for the same reason.

            by KnowVox on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 12:03:58 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  If he meant "unemcumbered" shoulda (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Luetta

              said so- more clearly!!

              Aloha . . .

              •  And "encumber" it (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Schwede

                with four syllables?

                Look, none of us are perfect at articulating our thoughts. Before we crucify a man with his history in civil rights, we need to give him the benefit of the doubt before we accuse him of malice or racism.

                Politicians and diapers need to be changed frequently -- often for the same reason.

                by KnowVox on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 12:35:17 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

            •  Or ... (0+ / 0-)

              that he doesn't work blue.  You shoulda heard Shirley Chisholm tell the Aristocrats joke.

              "True compassion is more than flinging a coin to a beggar. It comes to see that an edifice which produces beggars needs restructuring." -- MLK, 1967

              by Alvin K on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 12:18:35 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I just saw a documentary (0+ / 0-)

                just yesterday on HBO that fetured the Aristocrats joke (I just caught part of it). It was the first time I had heard of it, so it's funny that you should mention it.
                It featured many, many comedians, including Whoopi Goldberg, Don Rickles, Susie Essman, Chris Rock and Phyllis Diller.

                I would have loved to hear Shirley Chisolm's version.

                She certainly was a pleasure to listen to. She had the kind of personal courage and integrity and ability to think logically that is so rare in politicians, sadly.

            •  nope (0+ / 0-)

              I think he meant clean as in "light skinned"

              really.

    •  He's done. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      pine, lizpolaris

      What a maroon. Just wait for the rest of the dopes to do it again and again with BHO.

      The same will likely happen with HRC. She's the firs woman candiate who...

      This is going to be a train wreck.

    •  This is exactly my point (9+ / 0-)

      he is one of the few politicians to cut through the conservative propaganda machinew.  That will be an asset to the election.  A mistatement should not eliminate him from contention.

      The people elected Bush, not because he did not make misstatements but because they trusted him to be what they were looking for more than Kerry, turned out they were wrong.

      The general electorate does not punish candidates like we liberals do for stuff like this.

      Us getting so worked up about just makes the conservative propaganda machine work less diligently to bring our candidates down.

      •  that's no "mis-statement" (9+ / 0-)
        that's a gaffe born of institutional racism that he should have eliminated from his personality years ago.

        what frickin' storybooks did he read as a child?  goldilocks and the three nicely groomed black people?  the emporer's new pimp suit?  hansel and moesha?

        what's surprising (ie, "storybook") about articulate, bright and clean african-americans?  didn't the guy ever watch the bill cosby show?

        the guy is lewis and clark:  history.

        .

        .

      •  DE (5+ / 0-)

        I lived in DE for a big part of my life. I'm not a fan of Senator Biden for President, but I'd be surprised to learn this quote isn't out of context in some way.

        I don't ever remember hearing Senator Biden make a bigoted comment. And, he's long winded, so he's had plenty of opportunities.

        I also don't think it's entirely fair to characterize him as the MBNA candidate. Anyone who lived in DE knows how MBNA dominated the state (much as duPont did before them) -- both good and bad -- for decades.

        I think it's wrong to believe the DE Senators and Rep consider only the interest of MBNA. They represent a state with a huge banking interest -- those are some of their constituents. I don't agree with the bankruptcy bill, nor do I agree with everything the credit card industry does (and I say that as someone who worked in the industry for a long time), but Senator Biden has done a lot of good as a Senator that doesn't involve banking.

        I think this was unnecessary:

        I've completely forgotten to write about the other side of the story -- how Biden is a bought and paid for subsidiary of MBNA. When Bank of America acquired MBNA, Biden was likely part of the package deal.

        •  how? (0+ / 0-)

          those words seem fairly straightforward to me.

        •  gimme a break (0+ / 0-)

          MBNA is ONE constituent in a state that while small geographically, has lots of others -- many in low paid service (tourist) jobs and agriculture for to name but two.

          Funny how most of the people of color in Delaware tend to be found in low paid chicken production - chicken farms or processing plants. What's he done for THOSE constituents lately? Oh yeah, made it harder for them to access consumer credit and then - god forbid - they had a medical emergency, had no healthcare (most don't) and had to declare bankruptcy?  

          Oh yeah Senator Biden to the rescue -- for the creditors!

          •  Misrepresentation (0+ / 0-)

            You are misrepresenting the state of DE to claim that "most of the people of color in Delaware tend to be found in low paid chicken production - chicken farms or processing plants".

            And, I did not state that MBNA was "ONE constituent". What I wrote was "They represent a state with a huge banking interest -- those are some of their constituents."

            You're attempting to make arguments against things I didn't claim.

            And, as I clearly stated above, I don't agree with the bankruptcy bill.

            By the way, DE does in fact have lower paid tourist jobs -- mainly at the beaches and during the summer season -- and agriculture jobs, but there are also chemical, medical, engineering and auto production jobs -- in addition to the banking jobs -- that pay very well.

            So, how about you "gimme a break" unless you're going to counter something I actually wrote.

    •  Sooner Rather Than Later (0+ / 0-)

      hypnotized by his own ego

      jbeach, that is a CLASSIC QUOTE!

      People can argue forever about his intentions, but I don't think that there is any argument that this was dumb thing for him to say.

      "Storybook"?

      "Mainstream"?

      What a dumb cluck.

      I am happy to have him out of the race (effectively), I wish more candidates would be so frank, it would thin the field out and allow people to concentrate more on policy and planning instead of jockeying and polling.

  •  I'll bite (5+ / 0-)

    What if you were assume he was talking about SERIOUS candidates. That solves your Moseley Braun problem right that.

    •  And Jesse Jackson (0+ / 0-)

      Politicians and diapers need to be changed frequently -- often for the same reason.

      by KnowVox on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 10:46:11 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Jesse was serious. (5+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        jmonch, 5x5, Allogenes, Blue South, leonard145b

        I didn't support him, but he was serious.

        Wes Clark -- The President we were promised as kids.

        by Jimdotz on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 10:53:38 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  And Joe Biden (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Alice in Florida, KnowVox

        Rise like lions after slumber in unvanquishable number. Shake your chains to earth like dew, which in sleep had fallen on you. Ye are many - they are few.

        by cruz on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 10:53:48 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  I am proud to have voted (5+ / 0-)

        for Jesse Jackson.

        We're going out of our way to defend ugly racist comments here. Biden should be shown the door.

        •  I'm not so sure about that ... (7+ / 0-)

          One thing that separates us from Freeperville (I hope) is that we're not kneejerk unless it's warranted.  Now if he said something really blatant like, "He's a credit to his race" or some bullshit, that would be one thing.  But his comment is a bit ambiguous.  No disrespect to Sharpton, Mosely-Braun, and Jackson, but did anybody really expect any of them to win?  I don't think so.  Thus, in a sense, they were not mainstream candidates.

          Let's not react before we're sure that it was really a slam.  After all, it is 1.5 years until the election.

          •  Yeah the thing (6+ / 0-)

            I like about Biden is he's so clean... for a white guy.

            •  I seriously doubt (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Cream City, I, KansasLiberal

              he was talking about soap and water. C'mon folks.

              Politicians and diapers need to be changed frequently -- often for the same reason.

              by KnowVox on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 11:07:55 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  "storybook" (7+ / 0-)

              The implication that its fantastical or from the land of fairy that there could exist such an African American candidate that is "clean, articulate,etc" is so offensive to me. I don't see the ambiguity at all.

              Google "articulate" and "Obama" and see what I mean. Seems to be the seething-racist undertone media buzzword of the moment.

              "Murder, considered a crime when people commit it singly, is transformed into a virtue when they do it en masse." St. Cyprian (200-258)

              by valleycat on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 11:09:15 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I read that as meaning "perfect" (6+ / 0-)

                like a "storybook" football play... it couldn't possibly be better.

                Do you trust the people who handled the federal response to Katrina to protect us against terror?

                by ubertar on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 11:18:23 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  no (0+ / 0-)
                  it means "fantastical, far from reality."

                  he's done.

                  •  hmm... (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    skippy, whick

                    I posted my interpretation of what he meant, yet somehow you know what he meant. Thank you, O wise one.

                    Do you trust the people who handled the federal response to Katrina to protect us against terror?

                    by ubertar on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 01:24:53 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  Holy crap! (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    skippy, whick

                    This is so far removed from merely ridiculous that it's, well...ridiculous.

                    "Storybook" means rags to riches, from nothing to something, etc.  Things of which stories are made.  No racial undertones.  You couldn't get much whiter than Cinderella, could you?  People, please.  

                  •  Merriam-Webster (0+ / 0-)

                    defines "storybook (adj.)" as "fairy-tale (adj.)", which it in turn defines as:

                    characteristic of or suitable to a fairy tale; especially : marked by seemingly unreal beauty, perfection, luck, or happiness <led a fairy-tale life> <a store clerk's fairy-tale romance>

                    There is certainly an element of unreality there (unreal), but I don't think "far from reality" is accurate. It's a superlative. "So perfect it's almost beyond belief."

                    This whole brouhaha is disturbing to me. It reminds me of something I read a while back about some Asian American college students complaining about racial stereotypes, and one girl complained that people think Asians are smart. I wanted to be able to set her mind and ease and reassure her that I don't think she's smart at all.

                    Clearly, there are a lot of people who feel that any compliment paid to a black man is insulting because it implies that someone might have thought otherwise, or that he is therefore the exception to an otherwise pejorative rule.

                    I don't mean to minimize real racism. And I know that it is often found even in subtle, less than obvious places, and statements. But there is a lot of poison in the well, and it is in full display in this ultra-cynical take on Biden's remarks, and I think one of the reasons Obama is appealing to so many Americans is that they see him as being apart from this kind of venom and distrust. They see him as someone who could take a compliment without stopping to ask if there is something sinister behind it.

                    εἰρήνη ἀντί πολέμου -- peace instead of war

                    by dconrad on Thu Feb 01, 2007 at 01:36:57 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  Merriam-Webster (0+ / 0-)

                    defines "storybook (adj.)" as "fairy-tale (adj.)", which it in turn defines as:

                    characteristic of or suitable to a fairy tale; especially : marked by seemingly unreal beauty, perfection, luck, or happiness <led a fairy-tale life> <a store clerk's fairy-tale romance>

                    There is certainly an element of unreality there (unreal), but I don't think "far from reality" is accurate. It's a superlative. "So perfect it's almost beyond belief."

                    This whole brouhaha is disturbing to me. It reminds me of something I read a while back about some Asian American college students complaining about racial stereotypes, and one girl complained that people think Asians are smart. I wanted to be able to set her mind and ease and reassure her that I don't think she's smart at all.

                    Clearly, there are a lot of people who feel that any compliment paid to a black man is insulting because it implies that someone might have thought otherwise, or that he is therefore the exception to an otherwise pejorative rule.

                    I don't mean to minimize real racism. And I know that it is often found even in subtle, less than obvious places, and statements. But there is a lot of poison in the well, and it is in full display in this ultra-cynical take on Biden's remarks, and I think one of the reasons Obama is appealing to so many Americans is that they see him as being apart from this kind of venom and distrust. They see him as someone who could take a compliment without stopping to ask if there is something sinister behind it.

                    εἰρήνη ἀντί πολέμου -- peace instead of war

                    by dconrad on Thu Feb 01, 2007 at 03:20:34 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

              •  Atriculate (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                5x5

                Articulate is such a loaded word. It's like saying someone is soulful etc.

              •  311,000 results for (0+ / 0-)

                Obama articulate.
                Jeez!!

                "As far as I'm told, Canada actually borders our fine upstanding nation," ...Bush

                by edie on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 11:45:47 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  I agree. (0+ / 0-)

                The whole sentence (and his 7-11 performance) reads as the actions of one who is utterly clueless about his own internalized... if not racism, at least an attitude that people of color are "those others" and slightly alien.

                Hillary Clinton is clean and bright and articulate. John Tester is clean and bright and articulate. (How about that for a storybook? Rancher goes to Washington???) Yet Joe never talks about them in those terms; he would never dream of it!

                Clueless racism. That was my first impression when I saw the clips and it still is.

                When Dick Cheney smiles, beware...

                by Dean Nut on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 09:17:44 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

            •  Just wondering ... (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Cream City, sd4david, ubertar

              he could have been thinking "politically clean" as in "no baggage". He was certainly dim to not realize that the whole "dark skin = dirty" meme would kick in. He's certainly old enough to know it, even if he doesn't hold it.

              Happy the man and happy he alone--he who can call today his own ... John Dryden

              by ohiolibrarian on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 11:12:39 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  the first "clean" explanation that makes sense (0+ / 0-)

                if he meant "clean" as in not corrupt, which (sadly) distinguishes Obama from Moseley-Braun and Jackson.

                I've been willing up until now to give Biden a chance just on his foreign policy credentials.  But like other progressives I'm still furious about the bankruptcy bill, and can't think of any benign explanation for trumpeting Delaware's status as a slave state in speech to a Republican crowd.

                Joe, please, if you can't get through your first day as an official candidate without an adequate appropriateness filter on Brain Biden (great coinage, terrypinder), do you really think you'll make it to November 2008 without "accidentally" saying something even more damning?  Loose lips sink ships and the Democratic ship needs someone at the helm who will be a lot more careful with the words he throws around.

                It's over, but the size of his ego, matched in size by his desire to be President, means that it will take him a while before he realizes that it's over.  Biden didn't have a chance this year anyway.  Stick a fork in him.  He's done.

                Politics is like driving. To go backward, put it in R. To go forward, put it in D.
                IMPEACH CHENEY FIRST.

                by TrueBlueMajority on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 11:42:10 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  I'm certain that that's what (0+ / 0-)

                he meant, but to be a Dem presidential precontender and at the same time use those quasi-racist codes...

                "One way or another, this darkness got to give"

                by wozzle on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 11:45:05 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  He probably meant clean-cut (0+ / 0-)

                as in more or less synonymous w/ good-looking.

                And I must not be old enough, because the "dark skin = dirty" meme would never ever have even occurred to me.

                •  then you're probably also too young (0+ / 0-)

                  to recall the "black is beautiful" movement. Yes it required a whole MOVEMENT to raise the conciousness of America that "negroid" features -- dark skin, thick lips, wide noses - are also attractive.

                  Obama has light skin, thin lips and a narrow nose - notably "caucasoid" features -- making him more attractive (and "clean") to whites -- and probably some African Americans.

                  Sharpton and Jackson on the other hand (and Mosley Braun if my memory serves) are more traditionally "black" featured -- what a surprise that they are also not "mainstream!"

                  Too bad our "first mainstream African-American candidate" happens to be half white.

        •  Concur (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          bronxdem, leonard145b

          The opposite of bright and clean is ignorant and dirty.  Does Biden mean to say Shirley Chisholm was ignorant and dirty?

          Punt this chump off the campaign trail.

          "No man should have to clean up after another man's dog." --President Gerald R. Ford

          by Mogolori on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 11:12:08 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Jesse Jackson (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Major Danby

          I was in elementary school (3rd grade maybe?) at a private Christian school, the teacher made us do an "anonymous" vote for President. Everyone had to put their heads down and then hold their hand up in the air after she said the candidates name. I found out later I was the only one who raised their hand for Jackson in a class of 25+ students. I don't know this for certain, but I suspect it is the reason that teacher used to totally fuck with me every chance she had in really blatant and obvious ways. That's another story though.

          "The power to dominate rests on the differential possession of knowledge" -Foucault

          by Jett on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 11:57:46 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  so you're proud to have voted (0+ / 0-)

          for the guy who called NYC "Hymie Town," and you think Biden should be shown the door?

          Just sayin.

          Let Rome in Tiber melt, and the wide arch of the ranged Empire fall! -- Shakespeare, "Antony and Cleopatra"

          by Egypt Steve on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 12:28:01 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Are you sure? (0+ / 0-)

          "We're going out of our way to defend ugly racist comments here."

          It looks to me like you're going out of your way to find ugly racist comments where there aren't any.

          εἰρήνη ἀντί πολέμου -- peace instead of war

          by dconrad on Thu Feb 01, 2007 at 12:48:49 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  "Articulate" is the killer (17+ / 0-)

        What Biden meant by this was "does not have any trace of a southern accent and by extrapolation does not sound "black" and is therefore non-threatening to whites, ergo "mainstream."

        Offensive on so many levels.

        •  offensive, but true. (3+ / 0-)

          Many Americans who would vote for an articulate black man WOULD NOT vote for one that sounded "ghetto". It's reality. So why attack Biden for telling the ugly truth?

          •  because the word is CODE (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            esquimaux

            which of the WHITE candidates have the word ARTICULATE included in their description?

            there are plenty of folk whose vocabulary can be characterized as WHITE TRASH CHIC ...

            the descriptive in question here in and of itself is heard as closet racist by many ... claiming innocence in its use is just a milder version of saying one doesn't understand that the N-word is insulting ...

            Biden ... ugly truth ... what an accidentally brilliant image conflation ...

            •  You're wrong (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              whick, I

              Using the word 'articulate' is not intrinsic racial code.  I don't think there was a silent, 'for a black man' at the end of Biden's sentence.

              As a stand-alone fact, Sen. Obama is a thoughtful, articulate, gifted speaker.  And he is superior in that regard to most of the other candidates seeking the presidency, black, white, male, female, period.

              When people praised Clinton or Reagan for their speaking abilities, was it said, 'for a white guy'?

              These and other exceptionally talented people excel above us all, so we could just say, 'for a human.'

              Changing America 1 cup at a time. The freedom you fight for today, could very well be the freedom your fellow citizen will need tomorrow!

              by coffeeinamrica on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 01:20:32 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  Because he didn't say what you did (0+ / 0-)

            He did not make his statement because he was truth-telling about racial code in the U.S.

          •  The offense is . . . (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            lirtydies, Ja of Anoroc

            the deep implication that Barack Obama is the first "articulate, clean, etc) African American politician and presidential candidate. There is a long line of AA politicians who, as does Obama,have far putstripped their white peers in potential, leadership ability and ability to string together a noun with a verb. This is an infuriating comment in that it shows an amazing disrespect for so many in the tradition of African American politics. What the fuck were Barbara Jordan, Adam Clayton Powell, Shirley Chisholm (sic), Edward Brooks, etc? This is not the first racially clueless comment Biden's made. A pattern is beginning to develop that suggests that Biden does not know enough or enough about peoples of color to avoid falling into stereotypes to voice his approval.

            There is room for all at the rendesvouz of victory

            by Sansouci on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 11:45:00 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  but no black candidate has ever run for president (0+ / 0-)

            who sounded "ghetto", so what is your point?

            Politics is like driving. To go backward, put it in R. To go forward, put it in D.
            IMPEACH CHENEY FIRST.

            by TrueBlueMajority on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 11:46:22 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  but Amurika (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            majcmb1

            voted for an idiotic numbskull like BUSH who can't string a sentence together without a team of speechwriters?

            What kind of double standard is THAT?

            We have the single most inarticulate man in America in the whitehouse today and we are arguing that some "ghetto slang" has no place in the mainstream discourse?

            I'm not advocating teaching Ebonics in public schools (not "Eubonics" whoever posted that above --you're thinking Eugenics and that was another racist school of thought a different perhaps related thread for later...)

            but really -- we can speak to "we the people" in the people's language can't we?

        •  May I politely ask (4+ / 0-)

          how you know what he meant?

          •  all the DC insiders understand ... (0+ / 0-)

            ... that ARTICULATE is a back-handed compliment that verifies, should anybody doubt, that the described person is not WHITE

            •  Incorrect. (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              skippy, Cream City, KansasLiberal

              Google "hillary clinton articulate".  Google "john edwards articulate".  Report back to the class.

              •  shame that (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                LisainNYC

                ... a googlesearch result means so much in the quantity; mining the quality of the result is another matter

                how many occasions does articulate appear as a verb, rather than as a descriptive?

                from the first EDWARDS hit:

                ... and I relish the idea of hearing Edwards articulate them to the country.

                plenty more like that ...

                •  Sorry for being condescending earlier. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  whick

                  I was getting a little annoyed at this thread.

                  Anyhow, as you can see, there are copious references to Clinton and Edwards being "articulate."

                  It is a racially coded word, sometimes.  It is not always a racially coded word.  That is my only point.

            •  And this is a surprise? (0+ / 0-)

              Really?  Barack Obama isn't white?  I never would have guessed.  So what if Biden used a code word that indicates that Obama is black?  He is.

              If you're trying to get me to believe that Biden insulted Obama by calling him "articulate", I'll have a pretty tough time believing that.  It may be dumb, or insensitive, to use loaded words like "articulate" but I hardly think it's evidence of some racial animus on Biden's part.

              (Actually, I believe Obama is half-white unless you subscribe to the "one drop" theory, but we'll leave that aside).

        •  well it sounds offensive when you put it that way (0+ / 0-)

          but remember that Obama is a man who vaunted to stardom largely on the basis of his oratorical prowess.  And articulate is a word that goes quite well when describing a great orator (especially when contrasted w/ the current inarticulateness of the current WH occupant!).

          I can definitely see why it rubs people the wrong way, but it could also be entirely innocent.

          •  Point taken (0+ / 0-)

            but think about this for a moment:  Obama rises to national prominence by giving a rousing, inspirational, emotionally charged speech at the 2004 convention.  Mario Cuomo rises to prominence by giving a rousing inspirational, emotionally charged speech at the '92(?) convention.  How often was Cuomo referred to as an articulate governor?

            •  Plenty of times, apparently. (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              dsb, whick, I

              And I can't find a single instance of anyone taking offense at it!

              Some examples:

              NYT, Dec 22 1991 editorial (unfortunately not free, so I don't have article link): "Mr. Cuomo would have been the most commanding and articulate figure the Democrats could..."


              Time Magazine
              , Nov 30 1987, quote by Senator Paul Simon on Cuomo: "We need the presence of the most articulate spokesman for our party out on the hustings"


              Omega Institute Faculty Profile
              for Cuomo: "Widely respected as a passionate and articulate voice for justice, social responsibility, and diversity,..."


              New Statesman
              , 12 Apr 2004: "Mario Cuomo, the highly articulate former governor of New York"

              Terence Smith, speaking on PBS Online News Hour, Oct 2003: "One of the most articulate liberal political figures in this country, certainly, has been Mario Cuomo for many years."

    •  It also solves your Joe Biden problem right here (5+ / 0-)

      What he is admitting is that there was no way that Chisholm or Braun or Jackson would have been allowed to win the nomination.  There would have been some sort of party machinery coup, much like happened in Bush v. Gore.  With Obama, there is a legitimate chance that he could win the nomination.  But even if I can defend it (and overlook the specifics of "articulate" etc.), it shows the political instincts of a rabid squirrel.  It's too bad, because one could argue that Biden would be a good Secretary of State -- but the same problem would apply to him there.  Foot in mouth.

      My apologies to students who took my U.S. Government class in the 90s: evidently the Constitution doesn't limit Presidential power after all. Who knew?

      by Major Danby on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 10:53:41 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Well then (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      BTP, Night Owl, bronxdem, Major Danby, dennisl

      he could've said "serious".

      They're not synonyms.

  •  That's correct (9+ / 0-)

    He's an asshole.  And his slipup, Freudian as it may be, is an insult to a lot of people.

    "This is not a political problem, it's a social problem." -Deacon

    by jcrit on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 10:46:15 AM PST

    •  Well, kos has decided he's an asshole (6+ / 0-)

      in any case, and it seems a lot of minds were made up to begin with.

      •  I Don't Agree (6+ / 0-)

        with a lot of Biden's politics both domestically or on foreign policy. In fact on foreign policy his is the only plan that matches what the Iraqis actually want and would speed our exit out of there - so I give him credit for that.

        But an asshole? I don't think so. Just because we don't agree with his politics DOES NOT make him an asshole. He is a smart guy really - just not cut of the same cloth as the rest of us.

        Additionally he has for months if not years been a voice on the airwaves who has consistently berated Bush for his policies - so we have to give him credit for that also.

        An asshole? NO!

        "You Have The Power!" - Howard Dean

        by talex on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 11:12:19 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  He did a magnificient job (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          talex, KansasLiberal

          presiding over the U.S. Supreme Court confirmation hearings of Robert Bork and Clarence Thomas.

          Politicians and diapers need to be changed frequently -- often for the same reason.

          by KnowVox on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 11:36:34 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  IMO this is a "PC is our god" diary (6+ / 0-)

          Agree with you. I like Joe - he's not my first choice, and this remark was clumsy, but I divine no malicious intent.  Why don't we just forbid all prospective candidates from acknowledging the existence of any racial factors in this whole process so they're clear as to the rules of this "gotcha" game.

          •  Exactly (0+ / 0-)

            Why don't the Dem's just not acknowledge that Obama is Black. Then we could leave the whole issue to the Righty Bloggers and Rush to do with it what they want to (i.e. Rush: 'Obama is a Halfrican American')

            "You Have The Power!" - Howard Dean

            by talex on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 11:57:37 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  I get it, it's funny (0+ / 0-)

            because Democrats are both PC (meaning they actually foolishly think that stereotypes are communicated and perpetuated through, ya know, language) and they're godless pinkos.  It's funny!

            So here is us, on the raggedy edge. Don't push me, and I won't push you. -- Mal, "Serenity"

            by exiled texan on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 11:59:11 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  a different drummer (0+ / 0-)

            He seems like the McCain of the Democratic Party.

            "This is not a political problem, it's a social problem." -Deacon

            by jcrit on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 01:39:15 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  not my favorite (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Cream City

          I'm recommending your comment because I agree that Biden has done some good things during his time in the Senate that are worth pointing out here, as you correctly do.

          Even so, I'll be honest in saying that I don't think he's presidential material. Maybe it's because I'm a public speaking teacher, but I find the Neil Kinnock scandal to be almost unforgivable. And while I'll wait to hear Biden's side of the story about the Obama quote being attributed to him, it's difficult to defend such a quote even if it is out-of-context.

          But yeah, I agree that he's done some good things policy-wise.

      •  more than an asshole (0+ / 0-)

        He is a borderline racist, whose grand, magnanimous senatorial pronouncements smell like crappy cat food.  This was strike two.

        Here was strike one:
        http://www.newsmax.com/...

        "This is not a political problem, it's a social problem." -Deacon

        by jcrit on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 01:36:58 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  I'm going to give him (19+ / 0-)

    the benefit of the doubt. He's not some crazed wingnut, after all.

    Politicians and diapers need to be changed frequently -- often for the same reason.

    by KnowVox on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 10:47:07 AM PST

  •  Destroy him (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ourprez08, Allogenes, Jimdotz, Rex Manning

    every righty is pumped about this, because it "proves" Democrats are evil and hypocryitical.

    I want him out of the race within a week.

    •  if anything, the right wing may dilute the story (0+ / 0-)

      they are going so over the top on it since they've got nothin' that they are distorting what he actually said.  They will probably give Joe an easy out aplogize to saying something stupid and things will go on.

  •  commas are trouble.. (10+ / 0-)

    ..just look at the 2nd amendment. Let's get rid of commas! /snark

  •  Best comment (26+ / 0-)

    James Wolcott

    Obama: He's No Funky Negro

    High praise indeed from Joe Biden, whose hairplugs seem to have made hazardous inroads into his brain (via Atrios).

    Atrios is a close second with this:

    Buh-Biden

    Volumes could be written about all that was wrong with what Biden said about Obama, but I believe we've just witnessed the shortest presidential run in history.

    Atrios says that some of the "heavily moderated" comments over at BofA Joe's blog are hilarious.

    Liberal: "I still think it's a respectable word. Its root is "liber," the Latin word for "free," and isn't that what we are all about?"--Mary McGrory

    by mini mum on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 10:47:47 AM PST

  •  Biden (D-MBNA) (14+ / 0-)

    I'm not a one-issue kinda guy, but the support for the Bankruptcy bill takes him off of my list.  I'm happy that we have an experienced Dem in his place, because he does get it right most of the time. ;)

    •  That's ridiculous (0+ / 0-)

      You can't expect me to accept that Biden's material damaging of the financial well-being and economic security of millions of black and white people is even remotely as important as a perceived slight to black people.

      When are you going to stop blabbering about meaningless minutia like the bankruptcy laws that have no effect on real, working Americans, and get down to the serious business of parsing what Biden meant by "articulate"?

      εἰρήνη ἀντί πολέμου -- peace instead of war

      by dconrad on Thu Feb 01, 2007 at 03:24:27 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  rectal personality disorder (4+ / 0-)

    It didn't take this eruption to know that Biden (D-MBNA) has had RPD for a long time.

    I just wish I'd thought to start an office pool as to when it would show up during his current run.

    I will permit no man to narrow and degrade my soul by making me hate him. - Booker T. Washington

    by jmonch on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 10:48:03 AM PST

  •  Hazards of being Biden (6+ / 0-)

    The main hazard of being Biden is that you speak before you think.  Given his history of doing so, I don't view his comments as malicious, but rather another instance of the guy being unable to just STFU.

    If Hillary Clinton wins, the Democratic Party loses.

    by Paleo on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 10:48:34 AM PST

  •  doesn't matter much (9+ / 0-)

    The issue for me here isn't so much the degree to which he marginalized the other African American candidates we've had, but the fact he praised Obama using exactly four adjectives, and ALL of them are code for "not too black".

    I mean, "clean"?

    Granted, there he might have meant "Not corrupt" or "Without too much scandalous baggage".  But still, that's not what first think when it's followed by "nice-looking".

    "Patriotism is not short, frenzied outbursts of emotion, but the tranquil and steady dedication of a lifetime." -- Adlai E. Stevenson

    by eebee on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 10:48:44 AM PST

  •  The filter on his mouth isn't working (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    MJB, ourprez08, Major Danby, Allogenes

    I don't know what kind of person he is so I don't know if there is some racism present or not.  If forced to guess I'd say not--he's just one of those guys who talks so much that he learns what he's thinking when he hears himself say it.

    I used to think he'd be a great candidate for secretary of state but he's lost control of his mouth.  He's probably start a war by accident.

  •  a non-restrictive relative clause, WTF (10+ / 0-)

    Biden talks like a Dick, or as KOS puts an asshole

    He was trying to point out that Obama is one of the most popular political blacks to come down the pike since Colin Powel.  Biden's comments are very condesending and he doesn't even know.

    In his mind, he doesn't think he said anything wrong or meant anything by it.  In his mind, he classifies people by race, sex etc.  the exact opposite of the goals of the democratic party and I hope a majority of the country

  •  Not the first time he's said something marginal, (12+ / 0-)

    at best.

    Remember the comment about how Indian-Americans are the largest growing group in the US he made to the Indian guy? Said something like, "Yeah, I see you guys in working in the 711, driving the cabs, everywhere."

    And didn't he say something about Delaware having slaves ALSO, when he was in the South a little while ago, in some kind of, "We have something in common" tone?

    Ahhh, I dunno. Sometimes it's hard to discern what the hell he means. You'd think at this point in his career someone close and dear to him would have said emphatically enough, "Joe, sometimes you should just shut your mouth and smile."

    ... we now know a lot of things, most of which, we already knew... (-dash888)

    by Tirge Caps on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 10:49:20 AM PST

  •  Mainstream = Represents Credit Card Companies (7+ / 0-)

    then it makes more sense why Jesse Jackson wasn't mainstream.

  •  And Doug Wilder (6+ / 0-)
    neither unclean nor ugly, was a Southern governor, making him more "mainstream" in terms of being likely to be elected than Biden would be this time around.  

    And while I've hesitated to mention this during his previous clueless, racist remarks, Biden has undergone two surgeries for brain aneurysms.  I don't mean to be insensitive to aneurysm sufferers--complete recovery is possible and wonderful--but for this reason and many others, Biden should never be commander-in-chief.

    Alex
    Choose Our President 2008

  •  Exactly so. (12+ / 0-)

    As missreporter said on one of the other threads, I haven't heard anyone call Biden, Clinton, really any white politician, "articulate" or for God's sake, "clean." In my first week as a copy editor, I was taught to be real, real careful about using "articulate" or "well-spoken" about non-white people. It's very easy to convey the impression that it's somehow unusual that a non-white person is articulate or "well-spoken" ("dignified" is another minefield of a word). If Obama had learned English at 35, or never finished high school, it could be notable that he's articulate. (There's still no excuse for "clean.")

    •  Maybe... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mjd in florida, Allogenes

      he was differentiating Obama from the Wingnut Rethugs in the Senate who never showered?   /snark

      Politicians and diapers need to be changed frequently -- often for the same reason.

      by KnowVox on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 10:56:08 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Sorry, I have to say this (6+ / 0-)

      In your first week as a copy editor, you were taught to be "real, real careful"?

      Did you make it to the second week?

      •  Heh! /snarky (0+ / 0-)

        (There's still no excuse for "clean".)

        Period on the outside if the entire sentence is not in quotes.

        The comment is valid - it really is insulting to call your opponent "articulate", etc.

        Except it's just as insulting if he says it about any candidate.  

        I would hate to think anyone needs to walk eggshells around Obama so as not to be smeared as a racist.

        He's fair game as any of the other candidates.  And maybe we're asking too much of Joe to expect him to use different words for Obama simply because he's black.

        Joe tends to be colloquial, and I can envision him constantly stepping in it, unwittingly, if we hold him (or anyone else) to a higher standard of verbal elegance or a restricted set of adjectives towards one candidate.

        •  i very much doubt ... (0+ / 0-)

          ... that we're needing to hold Joe to a HIGHER standard of eloquence ...

          if he'd been referring to Ms. Clinton, Mr. Edwards, Mr. Vilsack and himself all along as CLEAN and ARTICULATE, then there'd be no real problem

          this is the kind of country-club liberal bigotry that continues to stand as a serious roadblock ... it's half-kin to "Would you want your sister to marry ...?"

          •  Biden's a dork, admittedly (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Cream City, ppluto

            and he says really stupid things.

            And you will see, he will refer to Edwards as a "young man" or some such.  He just does that kind of shit.

            I think he meant "clean cut".  Obama is sort of "shiny and new", having not spent the last 47 years collecting dust in the Senate.  He is a bright new face in politics.  Is that condescending?

            And Obama's supporters talk about how articulate he is all the time - because he is more articulate than the average . . . .

            POLITICIAN

            or

            HUMAN BEING

            He's certainly more articulate than I am.  He's more articulate than a lot of folks who've tried for the White House.  

            Calling him "articulate" is NOT, in itself, indicative of any sort of slur or masked racism.  

            I don't support Biden for president.  I don't even like the guy - like I said, he's the "real deal" (ug) and all that, but he's far too self-important and finger-in-the-wind for me.  

            But I think we're making more out of this than we need to.  And the repukes are laughing their asses off about it right now.

            •  naw, they ain't laughing uncontrollably now (0+ / 0-)

              the GoOPers would be ROTFLTAO if somehow Biden snagged the nomination ...

            •  "shiny & new" way better than "clean" (0+ / 0-)

              I perceive a world of difference between the two.

              I agree that Obama is exceptionally and notably articulate, and so calling him articulate is probably acceptable. It is different from calling an averagely articulate person of color articulate just because they can string a sentence together. Obama earns extra note for his articulateness.

              But clean? WTF.

      •  HA! (0+ / 0-)

        Now everybody in the library thinks I'm reading Mad Magazine or something.

      •  I made it through eight years ... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ppluto, I

        ... because I have enough command of the language to be able to switch from formal to colloquial and back, depending on the situation. When you know the rules, you can make effective judgment calls on when, in your own writing, you can break them 'em.

    •  I think he means (0+ / 0-)

      "clean cut".

      He is.

      •  oooh! oooh! (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Blue South

        Is John Edwards clean cut too?

        How about Al Gore? Tom Vilsack?

        (do you begin to understand yet?)

        •  Well, did anyone bother to see (0+ / 0-)

          what he said about the other candidates in all this blather?

          To hear him tell it, Hillary Clinton’s position is calibrated, confusing and "a very bad idea." John Edwards doesn’t know what he’s talking about and is pushing a recipe for Armageddon in the Middle East. Barack Obama is offering charming but insubstantial fluff. And all of them are playing politics.

          "Let me put it this way," Mr. Biden said. "You didn’t hear any one of them get in this debate at all until they announced for President."

          (About why Hillary can't win)
          "Everyone in the world knows her," he said. "Her husband has used every single legitimate tool in his behalf to lock people in, shut people down. Legitimate. And she can’t break out of 30 percent for a choice for Democrats? Where do you want to be? Do you want to be in a place where 100 percent of the Democrats know you? They’ve looked at you for the last three years. And four out of 10 is the max you can get?"

          Mr. Biden is equally skeptical—albeit in a slightly more backhanded way—about Mr. Obama. "I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy," he said. "I mean, that’s a storybook, man."

          But—and the "but" was clearly inevitable—he doubts whether American voters are going to elect "a one-term, a guy who has served for four years in the Senate," and added: "I don’t recall hearing a word from Barack about a plan or a tactic."

          (After the interview with Mr. Biden and shortly before press time, Mr. Obama proposed legislation that would require all American combat brigades to be withdrawn from Iraq by the end of March 2008.)

          Mr. Biden seemed to reserve a special scorn for Mr. Edwards, who suffered from a perceived lack of depth in foreign policy in the Presidential election of 2004.

          "I don’t think John Edwards knows what the heck he is talking about," Mr. Biden said, when asked about Mr. Edwards’ advocacy of the immediate withdrawal of about 40,000 American troops from Iraq.

          "John Edwards wants you and all the Democrats to think, ‘I want us out of there,’ but when you come back and you say, ‘O.K., John’"—here, the word "John" became an accusatory, mocking refrain—"‘what about the chaos that will ensue? Do we have any interest, John, left in the region?’ Well, John will have to answer yes or no. If he says yes, what are they? What are those interests, John? How do you protect those interests, John, if you are completely withdrawn? Are you withdrawn from the region, John? Are you withdrawn from Iraq, John? In what period? So all this stuff is like so much Fluffernutter out there. So for me, what I think you have to do is have a strategic notion. And they may have it—they are just smart enough not to enunciate it."

          Sounds to me like he was all about backhanding and slamming his opponents, nothing more, nothing less.

          Reduce Clinton to "Bill's wife", reduce Edwards to "naive", reduce Obama to "articulate and clean cut but lacking substance or experience".

          Period.

    •  I have a google, and I know how to use it. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Cream City

      So don't tempt me.

      OK, tempt me.

      But don't tempt me again.

      Dammit, I told you not to do that.

      •  OK, you got me. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        lirtydies, I

        Sort of. But still, it's like "boy" - it means certain things applied to certain people, and certain things applied to others.

        •  I agree 100% that it (0+ / 0-)

          COULD BE an indication of racism.

          But I am frustrated that there are hundreds of people here saying it IS racism.

          •  I don't know ... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            I

            ... enough about Biden to know whether he's a racist. Let me say that a different way - this is the first time I know of that he's said anything that sounds racist. But I do think it's a severely dumbassist statement.

            When determining whether a statement is racist, the question is whether you look at how the speaker intended it or how the listener perceived it? It's much easier to say a statement is racist than to say a person is, because every person is a thousand things, sometimes contradictory. But who is the lsitener to a statement like this?

  •  So let's talk about electability (6+ / 0-)

    This is exactly why I don't think that discussions of electability are out of line.  I have a problem with Biden's ideology, but even if I didn't -- even if I liked him -- I would still not support him because of his foot-in-mouth disease, which would doom his campaign.  That's an "electability" argument.  I don't see any reason not to make it.  If people want to say that there are different flavors of electability arguments, then they should come up with a name to distinguish what they dislike from legitimate criticism.

    My apologies to students who took my U.S. Government class in the 90s: evidently the Constitution doesn't limit Presidential power after all. Who knew?

    by Major Danby on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 10:50:00 AM PST

    •  electabilituy (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Allogenes

      Yeah the voters care about that!!  Come on man look at who is president.  The voters want real people, not this polish glammy nuanced stuff.

      •  plished not polish (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Allogenes

        the problem with doing this at work is I get too rushed to edit!!

        •  What does "plished" mean? (0+ / 0-)

          Did Timmy fall into a well?

          My apologies to students who took my U.S. Government class in the 90s: evidently the Constitution doesn't limit Presidential power after all. Who knew?

          by Major Danby on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 11:04:36 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  ooops (0+ / 0-)

            man i am a horrible typist...I meant polished in my first post.

            •  Oh. Well, in that case I either disagree (0+ / 0-)

              or am not sure about the applicability of your point.

              My apologies to students who took my U.S. Government class in the 90s: evidently the Constitution doesn't limit Presidential power after all. Who knew?

              by Major Danby on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 11:17:24 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  we are attacking Biden for a misstatement (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Jim J, kosophile, xanthe

                not for what he stands for or where he wants to lead the country.  The electorate plainly is not concerned about someone with a shiny style of speaking.  It can be an asset.  They elected Bush after all.

                My point is we leberal types dumping on Biden for azn obvious mistaken choice of words does not serve the democratic party well.

                Candidates should be weeded out based on things that really matter.  Again I emphasize voters put this guy into the white house:

                "It's in our country's interests to find those who would do harm to us and get them out of harm's way."
                   --George w. Bush

                Let us weed out our candidates on substantive issues.  let's not help Fox News do their smear job!

                debatablepolitics.com

                •  Nope. To me this is an electability argument (0+ / 0-)

                  He characteristically shoots off hismouth half-cocked.  It would be deadly for him to do that on a national ticket.  Maybe -- maybe -- he could get away with it as a Republican like GWB, so that he didn't have to face the Right Wing Noise Machine.  But, to his credit, he is not a Republican, so he can't get away with this.

                  This is by no stretch a "Fox News smear job" -- these are his own words.

                  My apologies to students who took my U.S. Government class in the 90s: evidently the Constitution doesn't limit Presidential power after all. Who knew?

                  by Major Danby on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 11:36:35 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Reality Check (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Jim J

                    If you want to beat the Noise machine you HAVED to take it on.  Biden is the ONLY candidate in the field that does it.  Ignoring the Noise Machine won't help a democrat win an election.  Look at the last presidential for all the evidence you need.

                    It is his very direct approach that thwarts these guys.  Honestly, name one Democrat, other than Bill Clinton, who has appeared on Fox Noise and not been on the defensive.

                    Biden always is on offense in those situations.  Obama does well, I have seen Clark do well.  But Biden has been consistently good at shutting them down.  And he is on their more in any given month than any 5 democrtic politicians combined. (excepting Joe Lieberman before he turned independent).

                    i am not sure I will support Biden, but Dems should look at how he handles Fox and th Noise machine and take note.  Fox will come after any candidate we put up, regardless regardless, so we better make sure they can fight back.

                    If we just ignore the bullying tactics of Fox we WILL lose again.  People don't want to support someone for President if they can't throw a punch back against the Noise Machine and do it effectively.

                    •  Reality Check back atcha (0+ / 0-)

                      I don't watch Fox News, so I can't say who has and hasn't been on the defensive there.  But if Biden is not on the defensive, perhaps it is because he has already ceded too much ground.  I doubt that Fox feels "thwarted" by him.

                      I'm not that concerned about a Democrat being able to stand up to Fox News.  But Biden isn't going to be able to stand up to local news.  Or, to put it another way, he does not pass the "Jay Leno test."  Yes, they'll joke about anyone.  The question is: how good -- and how cutting -- are the jokes?  In Biden's case, too much so.

                      My apologies to students who took my U.S. Government class in the 90s: evidently the Constitution doesn't limit Presidential power after all. Who knew?

                      by Major Danby on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 12:50:49 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Know your enemy (0+ / 0-)

                        It is vitally important we as Democrats know the Republican tactics.  The Republicans have been kicking our ass too long to ignore their tactics.

                        i recommend you watch Fox News to figure out what and how they do what they do. I know it is painful viewing at times, but it is a necessary evil.

                        Biden is good on there because he refuses to give ground.  He refuses to answer their BS questions.  He calls them on them in fact.  He does not ignore them, or simply answer a completely different question than was actually asked like most politicians do.

                        engage with your enemy if you want to beat them.  I have seen many posters here say they are glad Obama can play hard ball by freezing out Fox News.  That tactic worked for Bush, it won't work for any democrat.  Fox Noise will too much noise, and their garbage propaganda will have to be debunked forcefully and quickly to render it ineffective.

                        Kerry tried to ignore it and his swiftboat got sunk.

                        •  When did Bush freeze out Fox News? (0+ / 0-)

                          Huh?

                          If Biden is good on FNC -- I'll take your word for that -- then I'll wish him more years of doing so as a Senator.  Frankly, if he were that effective, I doubt that he would be invited back so often.

                          My apologies to students who took my U.S. Government class in the 90s: evidently the Constitution doesn't limit Presidential power after all. Who knew?

                          by Major Danby on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 01:52:38 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

        •  Good, (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Major Danby

          I'm glad you didn't mean to trash Polish-Americans.
          :-)

          When civilizations clash, barbarism wins.

          by Allogenes on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 11:17:37 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  I prefer Kos' take (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Allogenes

      The guy's an ***hole...it's not even worth the bother of asking if he's "electable," because doesn't have enough support for it to be worth discussing...kind of like discussing the roadworthiness of a car that has no engine...

      "All governments lie, but disaster lies in wait for countries whose officials smoke the same hashish they give out." --I.F. Stone

      by Alice in Florida on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 11:16:43 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  They aren't mutually exclusive (0+ / 0-)

        By the way, I could easily tell a story where one of the establishment Democrats -- Biden or Dodd -- could rush in and take this away from one of the relevant Senate newbies.  But that notwithstanding, he just announced his candidacy today!  It's a perfectly fair time to be talking about this.  If this had been Bill Nelson talking, there would still be eye-rolling, but it wouldn't be so much in the news.  It's in the news because Biden asked to be in the news today.

        My apologies to students who took my U.S. Government class in the 90s: evidently the Constitution doesn't limit Presidential power after all. Who knew?

        by Major Danby on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 11:39:13 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Biden's chances of being elected president (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Major Danby

      They're about the same as those of the University of Delaware Blue Hens playing in next year's BCS championship game.

      "Not only is it in our power, it is our obligation to stop Bush."--Rep. John Conyers (D-MI)

      by Dump Terry McAuliffe on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 11:25:16 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Maybe after today, but not as of yesterday (0+ / 0-)

        It's very early, and he and Dodd are occupying an ecological niche -- established Senate insiders -- that no one else in the field with the possible exception of Richardson has.  Anytime someone is almost alone in a favorable niche, you have to attend to them.  It would not startle me to see Hillary flame out based on some speaking error, nor Obama flame out based on some already disclosed (drugs) or undisclosed aspect of his past (and I have no inside knowledge or expectation of any; this is simply reference to his having been generally unvetted and not having had a serious challenger in his only race for federal office.)  If that happens, then it's Edwards versus -- who?  Maybe Richardson or Clark -- but they're both considered mavericks.  I expect that Dodd or Biden would pique a lot of interest if party insiders did not like the idea of anointing Edwards.  It's too early to count someone of that stature out.  It's not to way to bet without odds, true, but it's a good dark horse bet.

        My apologies to students who took my U.S. Government class in the 90s: evidently the Constitution doesn't limit Presidential power after all. Who knew?

        by Major Danby on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 11:45:48 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Given Biden's history (4+ / 0-)

    of blabbering(the comment about Indian businesses in his state), I probably wouldnt give him the benefit of the doubt.

    A conservative is a man with two perfectly good legs who, however, has never learned how to walk forward -Franklin D. Roosevelt

    by jj32 on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 10:50:23 AM PST

  •  Biden (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    dkosdan, KnowVox

    I actually like him.  I haven't done any issue research on him or anything like that, but I do think his style would be appealing to the elctorate.  One of the problems democratic candfidates have had these last few years is cutting through the snowstorm of ridiculous allegations the conservative propaganda machine spits out.

    Biden calls BullShit when necessary.  I have seem him slap both hands flat on the table, roll his eyes, and say, "come on man, you don't belive that."

    It is effective in shortcircuiting these guys, it puts them on the defensive instead of you.  It is tactically correct and it comes off as a straightshooter, not nuanced, it will play well in middle amerioa, where most of the votes dwell.

    www.debatablepolitics.com

  •  Articulate (5+ / 0-)

    David Corn talks about Biden using "articulate"

    But Biden appeared to be saying that there have been no impressive black guys in "mainstream" public life. And he committed the sin of referring to a black man as "articulate."

    Years ago, the rap was that sports broadcasters would reach for that word to describe black athletes but not white athletes. Why? Because they assumed black athletes couldn't put a sentence together and were unduly impressed (that is, surprised) when they came across a black man who could. "Articulate" became a word tainted with the prejudice of low (and unfounded) expectations.

    Joe can be articulate about foreign policy, on occaision. He is a valuble member of the Senate. But he stepped into it, this time.

    This President is in a league of his own. The BUSH league!

    by Tuba Les on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 10:52:47 AM PST

    •  I have a different take on this (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      lirtydies, Cream City, Allogenes

      It sure seems like white athletes and politicians alike CAN'T string two words together in a sentence, and when they can, they unlearn that habit quickly because they want to seem authentic and folksy and not intimibidate the voters. Hence, George W. Bush over Al Gore.

      I think this is a cultural thing and the absence of it in other people surprises pundits who expect otherwise.

    •  A question. (0+ / 0-)

      Are we not allowed to call blacks articulate?

      I'm not yanking your chain here.  Do you think that this word should never be used to apply to black people?

      •  Good Question (0+ / 0-)

        I would say yes, you can apply articulate to all people, as long as you would say the same about a person of any race.

        Do you find yourself describing someone by including their race? Would you use race if they were white? Why would it be necessary to call someone black, if you don't call someone else caucasion? Better to not mention it either way, in my book.

        This President is in a league of his own. The BUSH league!

        by Tuba Les on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 11:52:14 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Sometimes I use race to describe people. (0+ / 0-)

          And you surely realize that Obama's race is a significant issue.  We wish it weren't so, but that's just the way things are in America.

          If I were describing a co-worker, I would probably not mention that he's black.

          But if I were describing a Presidential candidate, yes, I would mention he's black, because it is highly unusual.  I wouldn't harp on it, but it's an important part of the description, and it looks to me like Biden was just giving thumbnails of all the other candidates.

      •  if they earn it (0+ / 0-)

        I'd say it's easy to agree that Obama is exceptionally articulate by any standard, so it is kosher to call him articulate.

        But generically speaking, calling a person of color articulate just because they can string a sentence together is really obnoxious. It would be like complimenting Bill Richardson on his excellent English skills---"Thanks! It's my first language"---obnoxious.

  •  Jesse Jackson (3+ / 0-)

    Can spit in my food anytime. Not into that: It's just the props you get for rescuing American hostages. (Ross Perot not so much.)

    9/11 + 4 Years = Katrina... Conservatism Kills.

    by NewDirection on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 10:53:02 AM PST

  •  He let his 'behind closed doors' voice out... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Allogenes

    From my personal experience with him (there were 3,) he is, as Markos said, a "patronizing..." (Mind you, he is not alone.)

    ::::

    "Let's put a shoe in there!" ~ Haywood Nelson

    by nowheredesign on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 10:53:49 AM PST

  •  Haha he's gonna be on the TDS tonight... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    kaye

    That should be amazing.

  •  Same thing, different day (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    lirtydies, kaye, Allogenes

    As someone who's lived in Delaware long enough to hear him rant - he's clueless.  He tries to hard to come across as an everyday person when in reality he's a cross between slick rick and a policy wonk.

    Joe Biden: D - Bank of America

    P.S. Can you donate 7-11 gift cards to a campaign? :)

  •  "Asshole" (6+ / 0-)

    is an interesting choice for an editorial. I guess this isn't going to be a kinder, gentler Kos.

    This is CLASS WAR, and the other side is winning.

    by Mr X on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 10:54:02 AM PST

  •  I just wanna say... as a Chicagoan... (12+ / 0-)

    that Barack is one of ours.  As was Carol.  And Jesse.  The folks our African-American Community churns out can beat the folks that the Republican-American Community churns out any day of the week.

    Oh.

    Our Bears are gonna kick reddie ass on Sunday.

    You can be as free as you want, so long as Republicans control birth, death, sex and marriage. And whose vote counts.

    by ultrageek on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 10:54:31 AM PST

  •  YES (3+ / 0-)

    It's within the realm of possibilities. But then is he saying that Carol Moseley Braun wasn't "mainstream" even though she represented the fifth largest state (in population) in the U.S. Senate? Is he saying that Jesse Jackson wasn't "mainstream" even though he won 11 primaries in 1988 and 6.9 million votes?

    ...in a sense. Obama IS more mainstream than your typical politician, black or otherwise. (see "People Magazine" picture of Obama in his swimsuit and all the giddy fuss that ensued...)

    All the young dudes, carry the news, boogaloo dudes, carry the news....

    by Buffalo Girl on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 10:54:55 AM PST

    •  "More" mainstream (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      wystler, TrueBlueMajority, YucatanMan

      You're talking about a matter of degree. Obviously Madonna is more mainstream than Christina Aguilera, but they are both "mainstream".

      Biden wouldn't find a need to say that a fellow small-state white senator like, say, Kent Conrad, was "mainstream". But he essentially states that Carol Moseley Braun wasn't.

      •  I guess that depends on your (0+ / 0-)

        definition of mainstream. I think mine differs from yours. Jesse Jackson - certainly, but I wouldn't call Carol Mosely Braun mainstream, really, either. I don't think most Members of Congress are.

        All the young dudes, carry the news, boogaloo dudes, carry the news....

        by Buffalo Girl on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 12:19:31 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  "Mainstream" just means (0+ / 0-)

          "Party regulars would accept his winning the nomination" (rather than, I dunno, arranging for him to be videotapes in a hotel room with a transvestite prostitute or whatever they do to shut people up.)  And he's right about that.  Party regulars -- the "permanent party" -- would have moved heaven and earth to keep Chisholm, Jackson, Sharpton, or Braun from winning the nomination.  (They'd probably do the same this year to keep Kucinich from winning.)  They will take a deep breath and accept Obama's winning, much as the GOP would have done with Powell.

          The problem is that in a world where Kerry's botched joke dominates the airwaves for a week and Hillary is raked over the coals based on the media's misrepresentation of a humorous silence, it takes us hours to think of why what Biden said may be OK (i.e. explaining away "clean") and minutes to explain it.  We don't have that luxury.  Only Republicans have that luxury, because they have the RWNM behind them.

          P.S. This is more amplification than disagreement.

          My apologies to students who took my U.S. Government class in the 90s: evidently the Constitution doesn't limit Presidential power after all. Who knew?

          by Major Danby on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 12:29:04 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  well, that's YOUR definition (0+ / 0-)

            don't think that's necessarily Biden's or mine. I wouldn't accept any of what you say as a given.

            I do agree with your assessment of the problem, however....

            All the young dudes, carry the news, boogaloo dudes, carry the news....

            by Buffalo Girl on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 12:39:34 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Well, I'll look forward to Biden's explanation (0+ / 0-)

              of what he meant, then.  And I mean that in all insincerity!

              My apologies to students who took my U.S. Government class in the 90s: evidently the Constitution doesn't limit Presidential power after all. Who knew?

              by Major Danby on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 12:52:19 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  campaign response (0+ / 0-)

                via TPM ELECTIONS

                "What Senator Biden meant is exactly what he said to Diane Sawyer," said Biden campaign spokesman Larry Rasky. "He's fresh and he's new and he's got great ideas. I don't see how his comments could be interpreted otherwise, but this is politics. Obviously there are people who are people trying to make something of it today, but not anybody who knows Joe."

                All the young dudes, carry the news, boogaloo dudes, carry the news....

                by Buffalo Girl on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 12:54:19 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  The prosecution rests n/t (0+ / 0-)

                  My apologies to students who took my U.S. Government class in the 90s: evidently the Constitution doesn't limit Presidential power after all. Who knew?

                  by Major Danby on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 01:01:58 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  really?? (0+ / 0-)

                    via politico

                    And...about Barack "Clean" Obama: He's "Probably the most exciting candidate that the Democratic or Republican Party has produced at least since I’ve been around. He’s fresh, he’s new, he’s smart, he’s insightful, and I really regret that some have taken totally out of context my use of the word 'clean.'"

                    He said he'd called Obama, who told him, "Joe you don’t have to explain anything to me -- I know exactly what you meant."

                    Which was an old expression of Biden's mothers: "Clean as a whistle, sharp as a tack -- he's crisp and clear."

                    All the young dudes, carry the news, boogaloo dudes, carry the news....

                    by Buffalo Girl on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 02:31:07 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  My problem with Biden is tin ear, foot in mouth (0+ / 0-)

                      It's not that the comment is inexplicable, it's that there's is no time during a campaign to explain away the many comments like this that he makes.  I'd feel the same way if I agreed with him, although I can't think of another Democratic candidate offhand with quite his combination of tin ear and logorrhea.

                      What his spokesperson said in the block you cited, though, makes me shake my head:

                      "I don't see how his comments could be interpreted otherwise, but this is politics. Obviously there are people who are people trying to make something of it today, but not anybody who knows Joe."

                      Oh yeah?  This is all a conspiracy to drive down someone with Biden's incredible numbers?  I'm sorry, but there's a degree of cluelessness or disingenuity that makes my head throb.  This cleared that bar.

                      My apologies to students who took my U.S. Government class in the 90s: evidently the Constitution doesn't limit Presidential power after all. Who knew?

                      by Major Danby on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 02:38:55 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  yes, no (0+ / 0-)

                        It's not that the comment is inexplicable, it's that there's is no time during a campaign to explain away the many comments like this that he makes.  I'd feel the same way if I agreed with him, although I can't think of another Democratic candidate offhand with quite his combination of tin ear and logorrhea.

                        yeah, I'm with you, although I like him still.

                        Oh yeah?  This is all a conspiracy to drive down someone with Biden's incredible numbers?  I'm sorry, but there's a degree of cluelessness or disingenuity that makes my head throb.  This cleared that bar.

                        Not with you at all. I DO think Biden-haters are having a field day with this and I don't think it's justified.  It seems Obama doesn't think so.

                        All the young dudes, carry the news, boogaloo dudes, carry the news....

                        by Buffalo Girl on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 02:59:13 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  The key word in my second comment is "all" (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Buffalo Girl

                          Do I think that some people are using this to trash Biden for political gain?  I wouldn't be surprised.  But I'm not.  My reaction to this was a groan, based entirely on his having said what he said, not on its implications for the Presidential race.  It's like how I'd feel, to take a more extreme example, if I saw Bill Clinton chasing a secretary around a desk:  I know that this has been his weakness, and I just want him to stop!

                          The spokesperson's statement is essentially that the only reason that one could make a big deal out of this is based on political animus.  Saying that is his job, I suppose, but it is so far off the mark that it infuriates me.  People are upset because this sort of boneheaded remark, even if explicable, is upsetting!

                          My apologies to students who took my U.S. Government class in the 90s: evidently the Constitution doesn't limit Presidential power after all. Who knew?

                          by Major Danby on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 03:26:51 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                      •  did you go to see him that day? (0+ / 0-)

                        or did you just see the video? I never saw either.

                        All the young dudes, carry the news, boogaloo dudes, carry the news....

                        by Buffalo Girl on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 03:00:14 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Not clear what you mean by "that day" (0+ / 0-)

                          I have met Sen. Biden, but because he wouldn't have expected me to report on that conversation, I factor it out of anything I have to say about him.

                          My apologies to students who took my U.S. Government class in the 90s: evidently the Constitution doesn't limit Presidential power after all. Who knew?

                          by Major Danby on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 03:20:36 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                      •  Yeah funny how (0+ / 0-)

                        The world jumps on Kerry for a joke when he wasn't even talking about the troops but Biden gets a pass from many.

                        "Look Charlie, let's face it. We all know that Christmas is a big commercial racket. It's run by a big eastern syndicate, you know." Lucy to Charlie Brown

                        by gladkov on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 04:10:22 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

          •  my politically incorrect explanation (0+ / 0-)

            which will no doubt invoke 'you are not a medical doctor screams of dissent! I think Biden meant 'clean-cut' which could also be construed as being pejorative if we are going to apply different standards to Caucasian (I consider white incorrect) and Non-Caucasian people. That lapse probably emanates from the fact that he did have surgery for a brain tumour (Biden I mean) and perhaps his brain skips a beat every now and then, sort of middle aged incipient Altzheimers, and positively my last word, if 'being articulate' is the worst thing another politician says about Obama before the fat lady sings, he'd better bow out now and save all of us hours of entertainment and spiteful criticisms. When I was growing up the usual comment was 'she's bright for a girl'! This has been fun! good job it's snowing again and i can't get out.

  •  "Mainstream" and "clean" still feeds stereotypes (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    wystler, bronxdem, YucatanMan, Allogenes

    "Mainstream" means "not uppity" like....Jesse Jackson, for example. Not prone to demanding big things for his race. Just a nice, quiet, thoughtful _______. (you fill in the rest).

    "Clean."  Hmmmmm. "Clean." Can you imagine characterizing any white Presidential candidate as "clean?"  Biden wouldn't say that about a white candidate from his own Party, even if "clean" is meant to connote "not corrupt." No, "clean" means something else--"not Dirty," as in "Not Physically (Smelly) Dirty."

    It's as non-racist a statement as any Clean, Mainstream white guy could make.

    Who was Bush_Horror2004, anyway?

    by Dartagnan on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 10:55:11 AM PST

  •  Kos, either call for Biden's immediate (11+ / 0-)

    resignation from the Senate or drop it.

    This is really hypocritical.  If you truly believe Biden is a racist, you must now call for his resignation from the Senate, as we did to Lott in 2002.  

  •  Suppose Biden doesn't consider Jesse Jackson (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bittergirl

    ..."mainstream."  So what?  Jesse Jackson ran for president without ever holding a government position.  

  •  I disagree with Kos. (9+ / 0-)

    He just misspoke. Joe Biden is not a racist.

    And, no, you really couldn't consider Carol Moseley Braun, who was as corrupt as they come, or Jesse Jackson, who had lots of problems but, at any rate, was ahead of his time, as "mainstream."

    Even Shirley Chisholm, who'da made a fine president, was too early to be considered "mainstream."

    There are enough really nasty, mean, uneducated quotes out there to keep us busy. This was not one; it was a stupid mistake.

    And I'm no Biden fan, either.

    Listening to a Bush speech is like cleaning the toilet: it's a dirty job, but if you don't do it, the shit just piles up without a fight.

    by AtlantaJan on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 10:56:37 AM PST

    •  Whatever it is (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      cassandra m, kkjohnson

      It betrays a sort of condescension that we can't afford in a leader. I am sure his words were heartfelt and not borne of any racist hatred, but I can't get over the fact that he thinks "clean" needed to be said. It's like his comment in South Carolina; it may not be what he believes, but it's obviously how he thinks average white voters think, and he may strain so hard to emulate that that he ends up in a place no one should prize.

    •  Not first time... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      YucatanMan

      As this is at least his third foray into Dumbassracistville in the recent past, there is something fundamentally wrong with Biden.

  •  Biden's Not Stupid (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Jim J, kosophile, NYFM, xanthe

    I don't honestly believe Biden would come out with a statement like that.  Why doesn't anyone ask him what he meant?  I'm sure he'd correct the punctuations there.

    This amounts to smearing honestly.  A little disappointed in Kos's accusation here, honestly.

    Pro-Gun, Pro-Chair, Pro-War, PRO-LIFE?!

    by ZaBlanc on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 10:56:46 AM PST

  •  I too am not a Biden (D-MBNA) fan (7+ / 0-)

    But the statement that "the racial element is inescapable" suggests that someone is trying to escape the racial element. That is all Biden is talking about. That was his point.

    What is ironic is that he was trying to pay Obama a compliment.

    "Mr. President, I'm not saying we wouldn't get our hair mussed." General Buck Turgidson

    by muledriver on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 10:57:13 AM PST

  •  ah, okay... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Major Danby, Allogenes, pioneer111

    There could be something to that.

    So, I'll allow him the saving grace of the comma and downgrade him from a category 5 dumbass to a category 4.  In either case, I'm still evacuating his shoreline...

    "I am a comedian and poet, so anything that doesn't get a laugh ... is a poem." - Bill Hicks

    by shadetree mortician on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 10:57:15 AM PST

  •  Sounds like Kos might have issues with Biden. (12+ / 1-)

    But, I don't.  He's an upstanding person whose fought the fight and continues to fight for those who are underrepresented or not represented by anyone else in office.

    To say he's a racist for a remark that was most definitely taken out of context is ludicrous.  Biden isn't a racist; now or never.  

    To lambaste someone like this is ridiculous and only hurts those who truly want to change the course our country is taking.  Biden isn't a revisionist, nor a racist, so give it up.

  •  "Clean" black man is racist language (10+ / 0-)

    There's no way to spin it, referring to a black person as "clean" is racist. Nobody ever says Hillary Clinton looks clean. Nobody ever says John Edwards looks clean. Whether or not Biden meant it as a racial slur, it most definitely is. Referring to Obama as clean and articulate is straight from the imagery of slavery, where the ignorant savages can be civilized.

    A lot of people inadvertently use racist language. But Biden's a long-term politician who has a recent history of racist language. He either doesn't care or is just stupid.

    Are you shaking or biting the invisible hand?

    by puppethead on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 10:57:40 AM PST

    •  It reminds me of when Ross Perot said (0+ / 0-)

      "You people" in a speech, meaning (I believe) to simply refer to an audience of predominantly African-Americans in the "third person plural".

      He was too insensitive to avoid a phrase that stirred up deep resentment in his audience of past abuses.

      Wes Clark -- The President we were promised as kids.

      by Jimdotz on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 11:03:49 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  He didn't say he looked clean (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Jim J, jxg

      He said he was clean.  Which, when you're a politician, the first inference is 'uncorrupted' not 'showered'.  Geez.

      Stephanie Dray
      of Jousting for Justice, a lefty blog with a Maryland tilt.

      by stephdray on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 11:28:38 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Except for the context (0+ / 0-)

        Regardless of intent, it invokes racist overtones. There is no way to rationalize it away. Ultimately only the African-American community can determine how racist it was, but it sure doesn't look good for someone who's supposedly a skilled politician, particularly when he's recently been caught out talking about slave states and Indians working at doughnut shops and convenience stores.

        Are you shaking or biting the invisible hand?

        by puppethead on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 11:35:34 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I'm not saying (0+ / 0-)

          That this was the best statement of all time, and that Joe Biden is a great candidate.  I'm old enough to have despised Joe Biden long before most people on the DailyKos knew who he was.

          But it's unfair to say that he's a racist jerk because of this statement.  It's beneath us, it's unworthy, and it will come back to bite us.  

          This is exactly the kind of ludicrous "Dean Scream" politics that gets used against our guys and never the other side.  And we're buying into it.

          Biden's a pompous gasbag.  He's not a racist.  His record reflects that.  And to say otherwise is just junior high school politics.

          I'm not giving "The Heathers" a pass on demonizing one of our guys.  Even if it's Joe Biden.

          Stephanie Dray
          of Jousting for Justice, a lefty blog with a Maryland tilt.

          by stephdray on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 11:48:16 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  Racist (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    poemless

    Go over to Free Republic.  Even THEY think Biden's comments were racist.  And they should know!

    Stop the surge. Stop the scourge.

    by The Termite on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 10:58:14 AM PST

  •  Mosely-Braun, Jackson, and Sharpton (7+ / 0-)

    each had no chance in hell to win the nominations, and were all never considered as having potential to win the nomination.  

  •  call me crazy, but I'm actually gonna (6+ / 0-)

    wait for Biden to 'clarify' -- he wouldn't be the first mis-quoted politican in history, after all, but that's me.  What's the mad rush to throw him over the cliff?

    'It is easier to stay out than get out' ... Mark Twain

    by PhillyGal on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 11:00:09 AM PST

  •  Again, I have to say (7+ / 0-)

    that people like Thurgood Marshall, Barbara Jordan and others predate Jessie Jackson, Carol Moseley Braun, etc.  My god, those people were giants in the land.  They changed our nation immeasurably.

    The very fact that "first mainstream" is used - at all - shows Biden to be an obtuse pinhead. There have been many, many African-Americans who have had big impacts on our country. I don't know if "first" pisses me off more - the idea that no other African-Americans have been influential or effective - or if "mainstream does - the concept that people like Thurgood Marshall, a US Supreme Court Justice of high intellect, were not "mainstream" USA.

    What I suspect, and I hate to be the one saying it, is that Biden really thinks Obama is "light enough" to run for president.

    And what I have to say to Joe Biden, Senator from MBNA, is FUCK YOU.

  •  Loose lips sink campaigns (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    kaye, Jimdotz

    Ask George ("I was brainwashed") Romney.

    "Not only is it in our power, it is our obligation to stop Bush."--Rep. John Conyers (D-MI)

    by Dump Terry McAuliffe on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 11:01:02 AM PST

  •  This country needs someone (5+ / 0-)

    with executive experience and diplomatic skills.  Biden does not have either.  I doubt he will be in the running very long.

    The ignorance of one voter in a democracy impairs the security of all - JFK- 5/18/63-Vanderbilt Univ.

    by oibme on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 11:01:23 AM PST

  •  Biden (5+ / 0-)

    How many times does this man need to announce his candidacy before he realizes that no one is listening?

  •  Too much out of nothing (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Jim J, Fiona West

    like the poster pointed out, it could be a simple matter of punctuation not some greivous mistep.

    This is what we as a party don't seem to get, Bush won the popular vote saying stuff like this

    "It's in our country's interests to find those who would do harm to us and get them out of harm's way."
       --George w. Bush

    Most Voters don't care eexactly how you say somethign in as much that they feel they agree with What you are saying.

    Dropping a Biden out of the race for a missed phrasing is not smart and only gives the conservatives credibility in their attack on this because the Democrat base is in on the lynching with them!

    •  Not his first time (0+ / 0-)

      Remember, Biden thinks his path to the nomination runs through South Carolina.  He made sure those folks knew how proud he was of Delaware's slave state history.  Now this.  Maybe it's a punctuation problem.  Maybe it's just pandering to what he perceives as his base.

    •  Agree -- this is not racism. (0+ / 0-)

      Co-sponsoring the bankruptcy bill is a gold standard, top-tier reason to oppose Biden.  Racism would be too, if it were demonstrated to be true. This comment doesn’t demonstrate it.  So we shouldn’t be joining the feeding frenzy.

      Re Kos’ "fair and balanced" reference – I agree blogs are usually designed to be partisan rather than balanced. But bloggers who care about what they’re doing (as people here do) still need to be fair.

      Kos conceded a comma after "African American."  That’s reasonable.   So – Obama is "the first mainstream African-Amercian;" and in addition he is "articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy."

      We’re talking about a presidential campaign here.  By "mainstream" I assume Biden meant a candidate right in the thick of things, a candidate with a good shot at the nomination.  I see that as no insult to Carol Moseley Braun or Jesse Jackson.  Both made history and Jackson had an important ongoing organizing role, but neither had a shot at the nomination at that time.  Obama is "clean" – he has no known scandals or baggage.  He’s articulate, bright and nice-looking.  

      There’s no problem here except clumsiness.  Which may also be a reason to oppose Biden. But it’s no reason to call him racist.  Come on, people.  We don’t need to do this kind of thing.  It’s republicanesque.

  •  His blog is sad ... (0+ / 0-)

    How are they expecting to moderate the thing .. in the ensuing crush of visitors? .. they'll end up doing what Time did .. just opening the flood gates

  •  Like spitting your coffee all over your monitor? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    YucatanMan

    Check out Wonkette's headline and story.

    Sip first!

    :)

    ::::

    "Let's put a shoe in there!" ~ Haywood Nelson

    by nowheredesign on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 11:03:18 AM PST

    •  Joe Biden Discovers Clean Articulate Black Man (10+ / 0-)

      The Wonkette caption is funny and Wolcott is even funnier.  But on a serious note it accurately defines what is going to play out during this election cycle, and I am looking forward to it.  Virtually every African-American professional has heard some version of the Biden statement.  It's not a punctuation thing.  It's the collision of stereotypes and reality.  If we can internalize that successful African-Americans are not an anomaly at the end of this election cycle, that will be one of the main benefits of the Obama candidacy.

      "I was a Republican until they lost their minds" - Charles Barkley

      by Mocha Dem on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 11:18:00 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I should say that (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        CA JAY

        I really dig Obama, but at this point, I am more in support of John Edwards. However, it is early and further, I am highly impressed with Obama and several other iron-strong (like Obama) candidates we have.

        If today were the day after the Primary, I would be proud to support vote for him in the General despite whether or not he became my number one pick.
        ::::

        "Let's put a shoe in there!" ~ Haywood Nelson

        by nowheredesign on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 11:23:46 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  And Bill Richardson talks real good (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    wystler, Nina Katarina, heartofblue

    for a Mexican.

    /sarcasm

  •  Option #3 (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    wystler, Delaware Dem, stephdray, ppluto

    Obama is the first black candidate that the pundit class takes seriously.  That Biden confuses what the pundit class takes seriously and what is "mainstream" is no surprise.

    Agnosticism is no excuse for indecision, it is a catalyst for action. It demands an ethics of empathy rather than a metaphysics of hope and fear.

    by Agnostic Oracle on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 11:03:29 AM PST

    •  1st black candidate pundit class takes seriously (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      esquimaux

      "Obama is the first black candidate that the pundit class takes seriously" is what Biden should have said, then.

      Politics is like driving. To go backward, put it in R. To go forward, put it in D.
      IMPEACH CHENEY FIRST.

      by TrueBlueMajority on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 11:49:34 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  It is what he believes, and that is the problem (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        wystler, TrueBlueMajority

        Perhaps, but the real problem is that Biden believes that what the pundit class takes seriously is the definition of mainstream.

        Agnosticism is no excuse for indecision, it is a catalyst for action. It demands an ethics of empathy rather than a metaphysics of hope and fear.

        by Agnostic Oracle on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 12:01:49 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  yes, I agree with you on that point also (0+ / 0-)

          Biden is still playing to the pundits as if they matter most.  He has not even noticed the netroots revolution has crashed the gates.

          Biden's so yesterday.  His time is past.

          Politics is like driving. To go backward, put it in R. To go forward, put it in D.
          IMPEACH CHENEY FIRST.

          by TrueBlueMajority on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 01:17:31 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  i'd have bestowed ... (0+ / 0-)

      ... multiple recommends, were it possible, for Agnostic Oracle's comment. It's the ultimate in nail-on-the-head distillation of what's wrong with use of the word MAINSTREAM ...

  •  Biden has officially blown all chances (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    kaye, Joelarama

    He's toast. It's over. There is no way in hell he can even get close to a single primary win, let alone win the nomination.

    Mosley-Braun held the same Senate seat that Obama currently holds, for Goddess' sake!

    Just say NO to Bush's Health Care Tax Increase!

    by Walt starr on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 11:05:02 AM PST

  •  Not a Biden Fan.... (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Jim J, stephdray, kosophile, kaye

    but, calling Jackson and Braun mainstream during the time they were trying to run for President would be a bit of a stretch.  I think he was talking off the cuff and shouldn't do it.  Like Kerry telling jokes, not a good idea.

  •  Does anyone else think that this is perfect (6+ / 0-)

    divide and conquer ammunition?

    The conservatives will harp on this undoubtedly.  So, what does the left do?  They harp on Biden first - trying to curtail any conservatives who may try to associate this ludicrious charge of racism with the Dems.  

    So, of course, the lefties will rear up and buck Biden off.  He's a bad man for saying what he said.  I can see it now - the boys in the Dems back offices saying this:

    "Bad Joe!  Get out of our car!   You don't belong here.  "

    Whatever.  I'm a liberal and think the Dem leadership and most of the leftist bloggers are over the top wrong on this.

    •  BIDEN unleashed an anti-Obama attack (0+ / 0-)

      which will be copied ad infinitum in part by Republicans if Obama wins.  So BIDEN should get the kick in the ass.

      We owe Biden nothing, and better that Darwinian forces cull the weak early.  BIDEN is the weak; let him rot.

      Make Crablaw Maryland Weekly your source for Maryland news and commentary. (-1.88/-5.69)

      by tbrucegodfrey on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 11:17:58 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  It was an attack? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Cream City

        When people call me a storybook anything, I take it as a compliment.  That quote, to me, reads that Biden thinks Obama has the stuff--that he's viable as a candidate, and that in America, after all our history and baggage, that's an awesome dream come true.

        I find it ironic that such a sentiment would be greeted with hostility.

        Is there more to the statement than what was printed that would give it context as an attack?

        Stephanie Dray
        of Jousting for Justice, a lefty blog with a Maryland tilt.

        by stephdray on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 11:34:27 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  My take - his condescending description of Obama (4+ / 0-)

          as "articulate, bright, clean and good-looking" (as compared to prior black candidates for President who, I guess in Biden's view, were ugly aphasic idiots who don't bathe) is a textbook example of the bigotry of low expectations.  "Articulate" means "capable of speech, astonishing for a Negro."

          Storybooks are for children, are fantasies.  It's a way of infantilizing the youthful Obama and discrediting him without offering an actual criticism. Neither Biden nor we should view successful, appealling African-American candidates as "storybooks" but as the high-achievement leaders that we deserve and they are.

          But that's admittedly my take.

          Make Crablaw Maryland Weekly your source for Maryland news and commentary. (-1.88/-5.69)

          by tbrucegodfrey on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 12:02:15 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Interesting (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            kosophile, tbrucegodfrey

            When it comes to politicians, when I hear "clean" my first inference is always 'Not corrupted'.  

            I absolutely did not think 'unbathed' until I read some of the comments here, and I doubt that's what Biden was thinking.

            As for storybook, I hear things like that said about athletes all the time.  Barbaro's runs were storybook.  Olympic champions have storybook narratives.  

            Maybe it's because I'm a writer--I think of this as highly complimentary.  

            That Obama has been able to overcome what no other black candidate seems to have managed to overcome so far is fantastic.  Whether I vote for him in the primary or not, it gives me warm fuzzies.

            So that's where my take on what Biden said came from.  Mind you, I think Biden is a bloviating jerk--but not for this.  And I hate to pile on like a sheep where the shepherd of this site is none-too-subtly prodding me.

            Stephanie Dray
            of Jousting for Justice, a lefty blog with a Maryland tilt.

            by stephdray on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 12:08:51 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Regarding Soft Bigotry (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Ja of Anoroc

              When it comes to politicians, when I hear "clean" my first inference is always 'Not corrupted'.  

              I absolutely did not think 'unbathed' until I read some of the comments here, and I doubt that's what Biden was thinking.

              It doesn't so much matter, Steph, what he was thinking, as the conflation's mere existence itself. If Joe Biden wouldn't use the word "Clean" as an off-the-top-of-his-head descriptive compliment of Tom Vilsack or John Edwards or Hillary Clinton, then it really doesn't serve well as a descriptive for Barack Obama, unless there's additional unspoken message.

              My own seat o'my pants guess is that when Mr. Biden would like to confer that virtue on one of his caucasian rivals, he'd use the word HONEST. Funny (in a bad way) that the alternative (CLEAN) is a descriptive of an empty RAP SHEET.

              Only way out for Joe is by admitting that he's not always aware of the deeply embedded insensitivity that our cultural upbringing has foisted on many of us. There may well be a brave path available to him, though I doubt he'll choose it.

              •  When you're calling someone a racist (4+ / 0-)

                It absolutely matters what they were thinking.

                I think he would absolutely use the word 'clean' for any politician he thought was.  We can read into it our own prejudices and bigotry.  And we can say it was a poor choice of words.

                But we can't condemn the man as a racist unless he is one.  And that's just how it is when you're a part of the reality based community.

                (Which is not to invalidate your point that Joe could say that he spoke insensitively... because that's not the same thing as being a racist jerk.)

                Stephanie Dray
                of Jousting for Justice, a lefty blog with a Maryland tilt.

                by stephdray on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 12:34:49 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  I think RACIST is likely too strong a word (3+ / 0-)

                  I know I've had a certain level of bigotry embedded in my upbringing. My grandparents, father, and, to much lesser extent, mother all were raised in a different time. Coming of age in the early 70s, my formative years were very 1950s: something that, I'd guess, a sizable minority of Kossacks share.

                  I know my family would have been disturbed if non-caucasians moved next door when I was young. Then there's the restrictive covenant on the land's title itself: NO JEWS (no need to mention negroes).

                  Me? I'm not clean as a whistle myself, but I like to think that when I recognize that deeply embedded part of me trying to interject itself into my interactions, that I'll do the right thing.

                  RACIST is likely too strong a term. I sincerely doubt there was overt intent on his part. Still, the lack of awareness of the bigotry involved in choosing descriptives demonstrates one of the important things that needs to be part of any national discussion on race. Given that, Joe Biden cannot inspire the level of confidence to take the bully pulpit in leading that discussion without owning up to an awareness of his own shortcomings. I'm guessing that he doesn't have enough stones to do so.

    •  excuse me for misunderstanding (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Cream City, redrelic17

      So this is part of a DIVIDE AND CONQUER action, eh?

      I had no idea that Joe Biden was such a threat to both win the nomination and defeat the GOP's chosen champion in 2008.

      If I were a GoOPer, and I could'a had my 'druthers, I'd have sorely pined for a Biden nomination as a guy who could be beat like a rug in November.

      If Delaware's fine with Joe Biden, let him remain in the Senate, but let's stop suggesting that he's any more serious a candidate than Dennis Kucinich or Al Sharpton.

  •  Conference Call at 2:15 PM (0+ / 0-)

    Will the press ask him about it?  His conference call is in a few minutes:

    Delaware Online - Biden's Campaign Schedule

  •  Yes, Kos, he's an asshole (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    kaye

    but not a racist.

    That's the only point I was trying to make on the first thread.

  •  It really is worse than Kos is describing (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    lirtydies, kaye, YucatanMan

    Read the entire article in the NY Observer

    On Obama, after the racist comment, Biden lise about Obama's record:

    Mr. Biden is equally skeptical—albeit in a slightly more backhanded way—about Mr. Obama. "I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy," he said. "I mean, that’s a storybook, man."

    But—and the "but" was clearly inevitable—he doubts whether American voters are going to elect "a one-term, a guy who has served for four years in the Senate," and added: "I don’t recall hearing a word from Barack about a plan or a tactic."

    Bull. "I don't recall . . ." might cover his ass a teeny bit, but in that case, is Biden paying so little attention that he is unaware of the plans and policy statements Obama has "articulated" over the years?

    Obama's campaign was the only one to respond:

    The targets of Mr. Biden’s criticism, whether out of shock, indifference or a calculation that it would be unwise in this case to meet fire with fire, declined to respond in kind.

    Obama campaign spokesman Bill Burton wrote in an e-mail: "Senator Obama opposed the Iraq War from Day 1 and has articulated clear principles in how to address the tragic mistakes President Bush has made there." And as for rest—including Mr. Biden’s use of the words "articulate" and "nice-looking" to describe the Senator from Illinois—the spokesman said, "Senator Biden’s words speak for themselves." The press offices for Mrs. Clinton and Mr. Edwards declined to say anything at all.

    You can read the nasty crap Biden spewed at Hillary and Edwards in the link I provided. I have no idea why Edwards and Clinton do not have enough guts to fight back. Maybe they plan to suck up to Joe after he drops out.

    Be the Democrat you want to see. DebateScoop

    by demondeac on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 11:08:14 AM PST

  •  Biden shoots his mouth off without thinking (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TrueBlueMajority, kaye

    This isn't exactly a secret, and it results in him saying a lot of dumb sounding things that he has to scramble to apologize for.  Whether this means he himself is dumb is debatable.  I lived in Delaware for six years, and I've never thought he had much in the way of mental acuity.  Whether or not that's true, I think this sort of verbal blunder is what will wreck his campaign, which won't last beyond the second round of primaries.  If he keeps this sort of thing up, he won't even get to the Iowa caucuses.

    •  Only if we let it (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Jim J, stephdray, kaye

      Let Biden go down on the issues, not a misstatement.

      Voters don't care, remember they elected Bush at least once.

      We make the conservatives job easy by knocking our candidates out for a misquote or an over exuborant scream or whatever.

      This kind of crap is what the opposition WANTS us to do.  They run in lock step on the issues and the Dems go crazy over a point of style or a minor mistep.

      We make their job easier if we go down this road once again!!

      remember this guy got elected:

      "It's in our country's interests to find those who would do harm to us and get them out of harm's way."
         --George w. Bush

      www.debatablepolitics.com

      •  Well, if he keeps talking like this, (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Alice in Florida

        And he has his entire career, the issue that kills him will be that he's a blithering idiot.  Not exactly a trivial matter.

        Better he goes down now, that way in 12 months' time, nobody will even remember he was a candidate.

      •  except Bush ran as a Republican (0+ / 0-)

        Biden won't win any Democratic primaries.  He says too many stupid things.  He loves to hear himself talk; he doesn't get along well with others.  Even in the hearings last week, he interrupted other senators and responded to them as they spoke.  He's sabotages himself all of the time.

        •  My point exactly (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          ppluto, kaye, Fiona West

          what we dems need to realize is that the conservative propaganda machine will come after these types of things hard and heavy.  We give them credibility by disqualifying candidates for spurious reasons.

          Fina if you think he doesn't play well with others don't support him.  But do not take him down for an ambiguous statement at best.

          Look at the media environment we are fighting for the presidency in.  In 2000 the Bush campaign ran the dirtiest nasiest cmapaign primary in modern history in order to win South Carolina.

          "liberal Media" outlets did not report the story, Fox News didn't either.  They did not mention the shameful accusations the Bush team made about McCain.

          Guess what Fox News running with this Obama madrassa thing.  It is the same tactic Bush used against McCain.  Not a peep.

          Dems have to stop feeding the beast on this stuff.
          It makes Fox News' propaganda job all the easier.

          debatablepolitics.com

    •  Isn't that exactly what Bush does. No repeats! (0+ / 0-)
  •  the difference between "some" and "all" (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Jim J, stephdray

    First off, I can't believe with all that is going on this is a major discussion. Obama has all of the qualities Biden mentioned, while other previous candidates had SOME of the qualities Biden mentioned.
    Obama IS the first serious black candidate with a chance of winning the presidency. Other black candidates may have been articulate and/or nice looking, BUT did not have a remote chance at winning the white house. (I personally loved Carol M-B... and her dancing with Howard Dean.)
    If Obama was white, would he even be considerred a serious candidate? Some of his attractions ARE because of the qualities Biden mentioned COMBINED with him being black. There were also diaries yesterday that pointed out that John Edwards was constantly called "articulate"., yet Obama supporters feel it is condescending to describe him that way. It's a compliment. Bidens words were meant to be a compliment, so get off your high horses!

  •  He's so beltway (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    kaye, YucatanMan

    and the beltway never gave Jesse Jackson or Senator Mosely-Braun a chance to win.  He's just an ass, really.  I can't find it in me to extend him any benefit of any doubt.  

    "The only difference between me and the Surrealists is that I am a Surrealist" S. Dali

    by SpiderStumbled22 on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 11:09:14 AM PST

  •  wow (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    chillindame

    two posts on Biden's foot-in-mouth-while-head-in-ass disease.

    RealClimate.org- READ IT

    by terrypinder on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 11:09:14 AM PST

  •  Jesse Jackson was not the nicest of people either (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Cream City, kaye

    Anyone else remember the "Hymie town" comment?  

    It's not that long ago that he screwed up any chances that he or anyone else from the Rainbow coalition would be elected to office.

  •  This is a feeding frenzy. (6+ / 0-)

    How many of you, in your rush to denounce Biden, have bothered to look into the context of his statement?

    I don't know the context.  The interview in the Observer just turns it into the same one-liner Kos quoted above.  But that's not my point.  My point is, NONE OF YOU DO EITHER (unles there's something I've missed).

    I find this interpretation highly believable:
    "Obama is the first mainstream candidate for President, and he is very articulate blah blah blah."

    For Christ's sake, it was two weeks ago that we were bashing the MSM for blowing up a quote from Kerry that meant nothing like what it seemed to mean when reduced to a sound bite.

    I'm sure my failure to immediately denounce Biden makes me a racist, too.  Oh well.

  •  Phew, that just flat out (0+ / 0-)

    ...stinks.  He didn't step in it, he rolled around.  'Articulate' my kazoo!   He's a racist and a moron.

  •  Biden is an asshole for SO many reasons... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    YucatanMan, esquimaux

    The ones Kos names are reason enough but I have a personal beef with Biden.

    Biden personally attached, using a late-night sneaky maneuver, the RAVE (Reducing America's Vulnerability to Ecstacy) Act onto a completely unrelated measure, despite the fact that it could not be passed on its own and the fact that numerous civil liberty groups like the ACLU had complained that it infringed on civil liberties and expanded penalties for the possession of MDMA to those not in possession but merely in the presence of other who did.

    Because of Biden's backstabbing maneuver all promoters, club owners, security, bar staff and wait staff could be charged with violations of the act if ANYONE in the club at which they were throwing a party was found to be in possession of MDMA, regardless of whether that person was holding the drug for personal use or the intent to distribute.

    The consequences have been severe and immediate. The RAVE act has turned an entire class of law-abiding promoters and club owners into criminals. In addition the RAVE act stated that if an owner provided "chill-out rooms" for dancers to cool down they could be held in violation of the act because providing a chill-out room was basically encouraging the use of Ecstacy. So clubowners have often been afraid to turn on the AC in specified rooms for fear of being held in violation of the RAVE act. Just what we need - the criminalization of air conditioning.

    It's important to remember that the RAVE act was going nowhere before Biden attached it to a completely unrelated measure in the middle of the night. Besides the Patriot act the Rave act is the most draconian civil-rights limiting measure in years. And it's also important to remember that ONLY because of Biden's help this measure was passed.

  •  Attack Biden (5+ / 0-)

    On his issues or his vision for the country or whatever grounds you want.

    Stop helping the conservatives out by villifying our folks for simple mistakes.  We all know he did not mean it the way it sounds.

    We should leave it at that, when we get riled up about we make Sean hannity's job easier.

    Let's weed out our field on real issues not hyped up misquotes!!

    debatablepolitics

    •  Biden's people said he meant what he said (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      TrueBlueMajority

      so let him eat it.  The man said either what he thought, or what he knew South Carolina (his electoral obsession) needed to hear.  This man, the advocate of Delaware as a slave state, his mockery of Indian-American entrepreneurs.

      It IS a real issue if the Democratic nominee takes such a condescending view towards black political advancement.  If I wanted that, I would send $50 to Trent Lott.  

      If I wanted a dumbass, I'd vote for W.

      You know what Obama said in response?  Nothing.  A class act.  I don't like Obama, but Biden helped me to improve my opinion of Obama, so perhaps Biden can be credited for committing political suicide in a politically useful way.

      Make Crablaw Maryland Weekly your source for Maryland news and commentary. (-1.88/-5.69)

      by tbrucegodfrey on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 11:16:21 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  sure he meant what he said (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        tbrucegodfrey

        but as the author of the original post pointed out, it can be taken multiple ways.  All I am saying is that while it may be ambiguous at best we should look to the issues and not misunderstandings around statements.

        If what you say in general is true, then not supporting Biden would be more than valid.  But most of the posts on here are slamming him for no real subsatnative reason.

      •  What's wrong with Obama? (0+ / 0-)

        I'm not sold on him yet, but I haven't seen anything that would disqualify him from my short list yet.

        Stephanie Dray
        of Jousting for Justice, a lefty blog with a Maryland tilt.

        by stephdray on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 11:29:58 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Nothing wrong with Obama (0+ / 0-)

          My Short list in only slight order is

          Clark
          Obama
          Biden

          I think any combination of these folks as a ticket could be very strong.

          I have not done my research on individual candidates.  But here is why I favor these 3 at this point

          Biden- cuts through conservative BS better than anybody.
          Obama - can inspire through his vision.
          Clark - Unique qualifications and vision for the times in which we live.

          Like I said I have not delved mush below the surface on any of these guys, they are just the ones that have caught my attention.

          Edwards is ok and I like Kucinich, I just don't get the juice from though.

        •  To me, he seems too cautious by half (0+ / 0-)

          I wish he were more bold.  His Iraq bill, though, did impress me, both on policy and on politics; that was fairly bold.  If he backs that bill up with a hard-nosed plan for universal health care, I will be rather impressed.

          I would like to hear some loud signals from him about separation of church and state.

          Make Crablaw Maryland Weekly your source for Maryland news and commentary. (-1.88/-5.69)

          by tbrucegodfrey on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 11:52:02 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I don't think you're going to get the latter (0+ / 0-)

            He plays the religion game very well with voters.  But I think he also knows it's a rhetorical thing--much like Clinton could always talk that talk.

            I share your reservations about Obama's relative caution.  I hate when he plays sista souljah with me, but I also accept it.

            I don't have a lot of fears about religion and state being wedded under a Democratic administration, so I don't personally need to hear them talk about it, but I would love hearing it.

            I like that he froze out Fox News to punish them for the slanders they pushed about him being a muslim terrorist.  I wasn't convinced he knew how to play hardball.  I'm still not.  But this is a good sign, for me.

            Stephanie Dray
            of Jousting for Justice, a lefty blog with a Maryland tilt.

            by stephdray on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 12:13:05 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

    •  wrong (0+ / 0-)

      biden is developing a pattern. his recent psychotic remarks in south carolina were definitive and not open to such spin-meistering.

      •  you are kidding yourself (0+ / 0-)

        if race is not an issue in this campaign features Obama at the head of the ticket.  I don't get what the problem with Biden's remarks anyway.

        Obama is BY FAR the most articulate cnadidate in the field, either democrat or republicrat. That is the first thing anyone notices when he speaks.  His clarity of langiage makes it seem as if he speaks with greater authority than the others on with him at the time.

        That is an amazing strength to possess as ANY politician.  It really is a stand out trait about Obama no matter his race.  If Kucinich could stir up the same connection in peoples hearts through the words he speaks then he would be a front runner too.

        It is indeed a remarkable characteristic, an asset to Obama not an insult,

        If Dems are going to fight their campaign based on PC grounds they lose in 08'.  That is not what the wider electorate is looking for!!!!!!!

        And believe I want a Democrat in the White House!

        •  non sequitur (0+ / 0-)

          race being an issue does not make anti-black comments "about this issue" any more acceptable.

          •  but to pretend (0+ / 0-)

            that obama is not the first mainstream black cnadidate with a real chance to be presidnt, all Biden really was trying to say is not smart.

            Sure we should not make an issue out of it, but being overly sensitive about race over a perceived slight will make it a negative for the democrats.

            Don;t lynch Biden for a failed compliment, lynch him for his positions if you must.

            Democrats give the republicans the race card if we appear to try to rule out people for perceived misstatemtns.

            Like I said in my previous post, Obamas articulateness separates him from ALL of the candidates in the presidential race.  It is his strength as a candidate.

            Not only that, he happens to be black.

            Biden did not slander or attempt to insult Obama, he was stating two facts.

            Sure maybe he could have been more sensitive about the articulate thing since the way it was used in the past, but he didn't.  If we take Biden down for this we weaken our chances of winning if Obama wins the nomination.

            Biden did not mean it the way we are discussing it is ultimately my point here.

            If we scuttle Biden over this and Obama wins the nomination Obama's chances will be damaged.

            voters do not want a VICTIM as President.  that is what Obama will be if we take Biden out on these grounds.

  •  I have a real problem attacking Biden for this (5+ / 0-)

    Hear me out, please before tr'ing me.
    Let me say right up front that Biden behaves and talks in an ego-centric way. A lot of the time. I don't think the guys got a chance.

    I think I know what he meant to say, despite how he said it and I think what he meant was wonderful. He effed it up, badly. But this indicates density, not that he's an a**hole. He may be one, but this doesn't indicate it.

    When HoHo Dean was running, he got fouled up in his own speak more than once. We all cut him long ropes of slack.

    I think Senator Biden was generous and sincere when he spoke about Obama.

    And fwiw: Neither Braun nor Jackson had a prayer. Senator Obama has more than a prayer.

    So let's attack candidates for what they do and the real garbage they speak, not for missteps.

  •  HAHAHAHAHAH! (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    trifecta, redrelic17, esquimaux

    Love the update, Kos.

    We are a party of innovation...We are willing to suffer the discomfort of change in order to achieve a better future. --Barbara Jordan

    by wmtriallawyer on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 11:12:38 AM PST

    •  Biden has bloviated (0+ / 0-)

      One time too many. People will only put up with it for so long. Delaware the slave state, Indians at 7-11, and now this. It's like my nickname. He has hit the trifecta.

      You can lead a Republican to knowledge, but you can't make him think.

      by trifecta on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 11:57:05 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Who's running Biden's campaign? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    lirtydies, chillindame

    George Allen?

    Our mountains are blue. Now our Commonwealth is too. "Fighting" Jim Webb is our new senator!

    by big spoiled baby on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 11:14:31 AM PST

  •  we're ALL guilty of (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    heartofblue, chillindame

    freudian-slipping our racism once in a while (if you deny, you lie), so it's not that surprising.  But we're NOT all running for president of the United States from the Democratic party.  

    So dumb.  I almost feel sorry for the kook.


    Freedom is always at the beginning and not at the end. - Jiddu Krishnamurti

    by AlyoshaKaramazov on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 11:15:48 AM PST

  •  Also Disagree with Kos (7+ / 0-)

    This is much ado about exceedingly little.  It is fairly clear that the "," eliminates 90% of the rhetorical problem.

    We're all very lucky our posts aren't scrutinized like a single sentence from oft-bloviant Biden.  The mere mention of the word "articulate" - generally considered a positive attribute - in reference to any African-American is necessarily racist??  Let's all pay special attention to Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton speaking about African-American colleagues through the lens of that criterion. (...)

    And really, Kos, Carol Moseley Braun - a real candidate?!  You freely lambast Dennis Kucinich's get-issues-out campaigns as meaningless, but you want people to remember Moseley Braun as  competitive?!  

    Stop digging the hole, Kos.  You got this one wrong.

  •  Dump Biden (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    fairfax

    Joe Biden is in love with the sound of his own voice. He should never be seriously considered to be presidential timber.
    Sorry, Joe but you have not got the right stuff.  Stick to your day job and do it well, now that you've gotten some power back.  

    •  This gets to the heart of the matter (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      esquimaux

      Biden talks first and thinks later, has for years (I'm being kind there and assuming that he does in fact think at all).  He says a lot of dumb, ill-considered things.  Now his dumb, ill-considered statements are going to make national headlines, something he should have anticipated.  He needs to stop babbling, but at this point I doubt he's capable of it.  It's just the way he is.

      Incidentally, I don't think Biden is a racist, but I will say that Wilmington, Delaware (where I lived and worked for six years) is one of the most rigidly segregared cities I have ever seen, or at least it was from 1989-95.  And the job market at that time was just as bad.  If you were African-American, about the best job you could aspire to was to be a security guard.  Nothing else, not even a secretarial or waiter/waitress position, was available to you.  Even a tolerant person living in that kind of environment is going to end up with a lot of ignorant, stereotypical opinions concerning matters of race.

  •  Kos hasn't picked his candidate for Prez... (0+ / 0-)

    But he definately has pointed out who he's NOT supporting lol.

    Obama/Edward in '08...or Edwards/Obama. Whatever. I like the black guy and the one with the nice smile. -Elruin

    by Elruin on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 11:16:19 AM PST

  •  Grammar (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Cream City

    Kos: "So some are saying that an editing decision could've made the quote sound worse."

    "Could've" is doubtless intended as hedging (it's not flatly asserted that there was an editing decision of this sort); but in fact the wording reads like a counterfactual clause: "an editing decision (omission of a comma) could have made the quote sound worse" (and here's how) --  but in fact it didn't.  

    Which is exactly the opposite of the claim Kos wants to make.

    To clarify it, Kos could have said (but didn't):

    Kos: "So some are saying that an editing decision made the quote sound worse."

    Nothing like simple declarative sentences; the hedging is already accomplished by the "some say".

  •  LOL... That must be why my interest rate.. (0+ / 0-)

    jumped from 8 to 17% after I was one day late on my loan.

    I love when people don't take crap from supposed 'authorities'. If Biden wants to debate this, and since Kos personally wrote this diary,  shouldn't Biden have written Kos personally?

    There's a word for proxy complaining, it also begins with a "P"

    :::::

    "Let's put a shoe in there!" ~ Haywood Nelson

    by nowheredesign on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 11:17:20 AM PST

  •  I don't hate (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    stephdray, hopscotch1997

    Biden as much as most of you on here.  I actually think that in 2004 he was one of a few Democrats that actually could articulate a plan for Iraq and why Georgie was wrong.  No one else was doing it at that time.

    And I really don't care too much about his comments.  Stupid, yes, but probably not intentionally racist.

    But let's be honest, here.  Obama is the first electable African American.  Jesse Jackson and Carol Mosley Braun were good canidates and qualified.  But they were never, ever going to be elected.  Obama could easily be elected.

  •  clean???!!! n/t (0+ / 0-)

    Politics is like driving. To go backward, put it in R. To go forward, put it in D.
    IMPEACH CHENEY FIRST.

    by TrueBlueMajority on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 11:19:53 AM PST

  •  Ask Carbone (0+ / 0-)

    Ask Carbone about this:

    Biden noted Delaware was "a slave state that fought beside the North. That’s only because we couldn’t figure out how to get to the South — there were a couple of other states in the way."

    Biden should drop out of the 2008 race before he even begins.  Maybe he can rummage through Neil Kinnock's old speeches and find the right words for an announcement in that regard.

  •  What's Next? (0+ / 0-)

    You gonna tell us that Biden has no chance of winning?  That would be really irritating.

    This aggression will not stand, man.

    by kaleidescope on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 11:20:02 AM PST

  •  Obama has white-appeal (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    stephdray

    Moreso than previous black candidates in recent history. I believe that is what he is saying, and I'm not inclined to disagree.

    Is that racist? It discusses a racial topic, so yes.

    Is that offensive? Not to me. And I don't think it would be, as a reasonable standard, an offensive comment.

    Is it incorrect? Nope. Not unless I missed the "Mosely-Brawnomania" and the "Sharptonmania" in recent election cycles...

    •  Yikes... Biden is Rough (0+ / 0-)

      I think the comment that is a bit more telling is what he said at the confederacy meeting.

      Biden was on a roll.

      Delaware, he noted, was a "slave state that fought beside the North. That's only because we couldn't figure out how to get to the South. There were a couple of states in the way."

      The crowd loved it.

      Yeah, can't say I'd support anyone who waves a confederate flag of segregation, slavery, and hatred.

      I recant my inclination and do not want to agree with anything Biden has said, for the record!

  •  If Kos had to spend his whole life (6+ / 0-)

    parsing and explaining every thing he writes, a great deal of which offends some people - such as 'its my way or the highway', I doubt if DailyKos would attract as many visitors as it does. I am so sick and tired of the constant negative carping and harping. Give Biden and Obama a break and let them make their own cases to the public. We shall decide, and the proof will be who is the next President of the United States. Have a nice day.

  •  As a voter and a donor... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    hornrimsylvia

    ...who's itching to write a couple of $2,000 checks for my wife and myself, here's my reaction to Joe Biden:

    ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz......

    If "MBNA" Joe's communication's director is reading this, my feelings should be quoted to the Senator as follows:

    "ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz......"

    Right now I'm dating Obama but I might marry Hillary.  Her "evil men" thing kinda reminded me of the Big Dog...in a good way.

    As for Edwards, General Wes, and the rest, see my thoughts on Joe Biden.

    No one can terrorize a whole nation, unless we are all his accomplices. - Edward R. Murrow

    by CrazyHorse on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 11:22:53 AM PST

  •  Double standard for blacks (4+ / 0-)

    The fact is that Biden may take the heat, but his thoughts are the conventional wisdom in this country.

    Black politicians, or political leaders, like Sharpton, Jackson, Cynthia McKinney, or former D.C. Mayor Marion Barry are generally considered "discredited" or "out of the mainstream" for their behavior.

    Now, I am not here to defend any of their actions, but is the shameless whoring of Al Sharpton any worse than that of countless GOP pols, who went crazy over Terry Schiavo?

    Is Jesse Jackson any more of a corrupt, issue-goup hustler than Ralph Reed or James Dobson?

    Is Cynthia McKinney any wackier than the numerous Republican freaks who accused Clinton of murdering his political opponents?

    Should Marion Barry's crack use descredit him more than Limbaugh's hillbilly heroin use?

    I'm not defending the poor behavior of anyone, but it is clear that bad behavior by blacks gets them kicked out of the club, while the same action by whites gets...at most pooh-poohed and forgotten.  By the press, by Joe Biden, and even by the rest of the Democratic Party.

  •  Can't stand Biden, but (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Delaware Dem, libertynow

    This is sheer idiocy on our parts to make this into some kind of scandal.  It's clear what he meant, and he's right.

    Carol Mosley Braun and Jesse Jackson did not appeal to mainstream voters nationally.  It's evidenced by the results of their runs.  Let's not play games here.

    There's plenty to dump on Biden about.  But let's not be pathetic and try to bury him under this.  I'm nobody's personal unthinking attack dog--not Obama's and not kos'.

    Stephanie Dray
    of Jousting for Justice, a lefty blog with a Maryland tilt.

    by stephdray on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 11:24:43 AM PST

  •  Cold Blooded, Kos ;) (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    nowheredesign

    ... it's true, I've completely forgotten to write about the other side of the story -- how Biden is a bought and paid for subsidiary of MBNA

  •  Clarification. (0+ / 0-)

    Just for clarification: I get the feeling you dont like Biden, right?

  •  Mountains manufactured here? (6+ / 0-)

    This is a huge case of making a mountain out of a molehill.  Anyone who could base their judgment of a candidate on something like this is not much better than someone who voted for Shrub because they thought he might be OK to have over for supper.  Grow up!  This is flame-war stuff.

  •  Biden is a Rightist - owned by Corporations (0+ / 0-)

    Americans voted for sanity - STOP FUNDING THE WAR!

    by annefrank on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 11:25:29 AM PST

  •  "who" vs. "that" and other minutia (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    pitbullEmily, I

    Look, I'm no Biden fan and I like Obama but I think he needs more seasoning to be Prez. Anyway,  I've got no agenda here, but I think:

    1. If Biden had meant it the way you are interpreting it he would have said he is the "...first mainstream African American THAT is articulate and bright and clean...".  Instead he used "who" so I think the comma interpretation is right.
    1.  As for the Jesse Jackson, Mosely-Braun, Sharpton not being mainstream,  I think Biden meant that Obama is the first candidate to have significant cross-over appeal and a real chance to win.  Those three while having a significant following and some ideas that were important were never serious threats to win a presidential election - I think he used the word mainstream as a proxy for "able to win".

    Having thus provided a tortured explanation for why Biden's quote is really not that bad, I would suggest that Biden has a history of making ill-advised statements that opened him up to criticism.  I think his "diarrhea of the mouth" in suggests he is not Presidential material.   He talks too much and he makes statements that come off poorly. Four years of these kinds of statements would be problematic in getting things done.

  •  Ach, Biden (0+ / 0-)

    I completely stopped giving Biden the benefit of the doubt after his appalling mis-handling of the Anita Hill hearings. Basically, he totally botched it.

    For those of you unfamiliar with the story, there's a summary here

    Why wasn't Angela Wright, the "other woman" subpoenaed by the committee and standing by in Washington, ever called to testify about inappropriate sexual remarks she said Thomas made to her? What's the real reason Anita Hill didn't testify a second time? Why didn't Senate Judiciary Committee chairman Joe Biden defend Anita Hill more aggressively?

  •  Joe Biden is the new Trent Lott (0+ / 0-)

    Every time you turn around, with the exception of his Iraq policies, he's saying something stupid.

    • Delaware would have fought for the South (WTF?)
    • Indians own all the 7-11 and Dunkin Donuts stores
    • Obama is clean and smart, unlike, you know, most blacks

    At least Senator Carper does his job and stays quiet about his personal life.

    "Better to be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt."

  •  My Pet Peeve (10+ / 0-)

    I really hate when folks say

    "[Candidate A] is an asshole because of one inarticulate statement about [Candidate B] and therefore is not worthy of running for the president.  And since I don't like the guy to begin with, I will interpret it as either mean-spiritedness and/or hidden racism and/or stupidity, rather than 'one inarticulate statement'.  

    And I will hold him to the impossible standard of never saying anything inelegant even though the right wing puts up candidates who never say anything elegant.

    And therefore I will create not one, but two threads, to bash [Candidate A].  Because I like doing the right wing's work for them more than I like supporting the democratic party and all of its spokespeople."

    That's my pet peeve about discussions about candidates here at DKos.

    Oh, wrong thread!  Sorry.  /snark

    •  Really? (0+ / 0-)

      Do you really think it's that simple?  

      My pet peeve is when people excuse bad behavior because it's a Democrat doing it.

      Biden's remarks are indefensible.

      •  Please, sir. (0+ / 0-)

        You have read ONE SENTENCE.  A possibly poorly-transcribed one, at that.

      •  I don't think it's (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Jim J
        "bad behavior".  Biden tends to run at the mouth.  He uses colloquialisms that make me feel uncomfortable sometimes.

        But there's nothing in his history that suggests a hint of racism.

        Misrepresenting Obama's contribution to the realm of ideas of how to end the war - that's "bad behavior" and I don't excuse it.

        I don't "defend" Biden's remarks because they weren't meant as an offense, any more than if he had said "Hillary Clinton's bright and articulate", implying in a backhand way that she lacks sufficient experience.  She's his opponent, and it's a campaign.

        I just don't think it's "bad behavior" to be inarticulate.  Or perfectly articulate if you add a comma, and impute the best of intentions to Biden rather than "knowing" he meant something bad by it.

        •  Disagree (0+ / 0-)

          While Biden may not be a bigot, he did make a racist comment, and we shouldn't be defending it.  Biden should issue an apology.

          •  No, you interpretted it as a racist statement. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Cream City, hopscotch1997

            Big difference.

            •  Nope (0+ / 0-)

              I don't really see any other way to interpret the remarks.  And, I'm certainly not the only one to interpret it as a racist statement.  

              •  Sorry, but I really don't see it for more (0+ / 0-)

                than a mangling of words that just didn't come out right.  I guess I like to just give people the benefit of the doubt.

                My guess is that many are just using this now as a convenient means to eliminate Biden politically.  As if his current positions on too many issues to list haven't done that already.  

          •  So if he had said (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Cream City
            "Hillary Clinton's the first mainstream female, who's articulate and bright and well groomed"

            it would be misogynist?  Or just really stupid and insulting?

            •  But He Didn't (0+ / 0-)

              Biden spoke of Obama.

              If if if if if.  If my grandma balls, she might be grandpa.  But she doesn't, and she isn't.  And Biden didn't say that about Hillary Clinton, he said it about Barack Obama.

              •  And? (0+ / 0-)

                I don't see how that matters unless you are already predisposed to seeing Biden as a racist.

                He said something about Obama that you wouldn't find upsetting if he said it about someone else.

                Why?

                •  No (0+ / 0-)

                  As I've said elsewhere on this thread, while Biden may not be a bigot, he did make a racist remark.   And he didn't make the remarks about another candidate, he made them about Obama.  If Biden had made the remarks about Martians, it would be different, too.  But that didn't happen.

                •  code (0+ / 0-)

                  It is different because it is hitting on stereotypes that apply to black people, not to women, it is cultural stereotypes that give these sentences there extra layers of meaning.

                  I was trying to come up with the sexist counterpart to Biden's comment for an example, but then I got depressed and gave up.

                  •  I understand the difference (0+ / 0-)

                    all too well.

                    what I'm saying is that I don't believe Biden intended for them to be racist.  He might be a dolt, and doesn't realize he's using terms that someone might take offense to.

                    But I don't believe he is a racist.

                    I think Obama is amazingly articulate, moreso than, well, Biden, or Kerry, or Clinton.

                    So if I say wow, he's currently the only African American running, and he's articulate and blah blah, am I a racist?  

                    Am I surprised he's articulate because he's black?  No way.  I notice that he's articulate because most politicians aren't, and most of the current field of candidates aren't.  Because I want to hear someone speak in a way that catches my attention, and so far, only he and Edwards are able to do that.

                    Obama's excellent oration are why we even know about him at this point.  It is what makes him stand out in a crowd of politicians searching for relevance.

                    I think Biden was slamming Obama, don't get me wrong.  But not because he's black (or unique because he's "black and articulate").  I think he was going for, "sure, it would be great to have a black President, and currently we have a mainstream black candidate, a candidate who is articulate and fresh-faced and handsome (implying of course, that Obama is green and inexperienced and popular because of charisma alone), but [goes on to falsely smear Obama as not having any ideas about Iraq.]"

                    Not praising Biden at all either as a candidate or based on this inanity.

                    I totally understand the issue, believe me.  I just don't think it was intended as anything but a run of the mill slam on Obama's popularity (because he's so articulate) despite his lack of experience.

                    Just you wait.  He will soon be saying something to the effect that Senator Clinton is a "bright girl" (yeah, he calls women "girls").  He's a dork.

              •  Okay, not if but when anti-Hillaryites here (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                heartofblue

                make comments just as insensitive or downright stupid re gender, an we call them out as sexists?

                And will Kos do so on the front page?

                "Let all the dreamers wake the nation." -- Carly Simon

                by Cream City on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 12:48:26 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

    •  Ouch! (0+ / 0-)
  •  Remember when Biden brag about Delaware's (0+ / 0-)

    slave past?  The man has a habit of putting his foot in his mouth.  He needs to join the ranks of John Kerry and leave the 2008 Presidential race to the professionals.
    http://www.dailykos.com/...

  •  WOW (0+ / 0-)

    Looks like Biden's POTUS bid is DOA.

    "I don't wanna listen to the fundamentalist preachers anymore!" -Howard Dean

    by astronautagogo on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 11:28:17 AM PST

  •  does this mean... (0+ / 0-)

    that biden will be making no appearances on dailykos during the upcoming campaign, to spout off some platitudes about the power of the netroots, answering three questions with one sentence answers and then leaving for his busy schedule?!?!

    NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  •  Friends, Biden NEEDS a macaca story (0+ / 0-)

    right now.  It'll keep this out of the news for another cycle.

    Nanotechnology can take atmospheric CO2 and make diamonds and fresh air.

    by Crashing Vor on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 11:29:29 AM PST

  •  WOW. The Update is Stunning. (6+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Jim J, stephdray, kaye, nanobubble, Rasputin, I

    Kos has his opinion and that's fine.  This is his site and that's fine.  

    But Markos better never pretend he has not taken sides in the primaries.  He better never pretend he is neutral.  He better never pretend he is offended when he is on the opposite end of a blogswarm, since he is creating one here.  

    Kos' bias against Biden is so extreme now that it would be better for another frontpager to do all the Biden posts in the future.  

    •  Has he pretended that in the past? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      kaye

      Maybe I wasn't paying attention, but I don't remember Markos ever claiming neutrality on anything truly important.

      Do you actually think Biden has a snowball's chance in hell? Seriously? Why on earth would someone support Biden instead of Hillary, if they shared his ideological viewpoint?

      "All governments lie, but disaster lies in wait for countries whose officials smoke the same hashish they give out." --I.F. Stone

      by Alice in Florida on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 11:35:51 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Hah, very true (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Delaware Dem, kaye

      Kos doesn't like Biden.

      I see no reason why any other member couldn't pen a diary in response.

      Maybe Eric Carbone, or Mr. Biden himself, should write his own story for this website.

      It's hard to get dialog when you pass notes and don't open your mouth.

    •  Something tells me (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Delaware Dem, kaye, I

      there won't be a driving need or call to do a lot of front-page Biden posts in the future.

      Just a hunch.

      We are a party of innovation...We are willing to suffer the discomfort of change in order to achieve a better future. --Barbara Jordan

      by wmtriallawyer on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 11:38:49 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Sorry, but this whole indignation over a flub is (8+ / 0-)

    sad.  It's OK to hate Biden for what he has done/hasn't done as a Senator, but to take a statment and turn him into a racist over this is very sad indeed.  Not a whole lot better than the right-wing when they harp on this kind of thing.

    And for the record, I can't stand the man as a senator.

  •  Biden is not a racist but he is... (0+ / 0-)

    ...a gaffe-prone windbag who has never given a twenty minute speech in under an hour.  If you drone on as long as Biden, as often as Biden then anyone would say something stupid.  He has a safe seat in a state that does not elect many Democrats, long may he serve the great State of Delaware.  I think he will be the first candidate to drop out of this cycle.

  •  I LOVE BIDEN..... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Delaware Dem

    But -- for a lot of reasons, and just like John Kerry, he makes for a better Senator than a President.

  •  Joe Biden Story -Political Hit by Hillary Backer? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Delaware Dem, dkosdan
    1. In my opinion, the Joe Biden story is a political hit by the Hillary Clinton campaign.

    LOOK at the source of the story. The NY Observer is a small, Manhatten rag. It was bought a few months ago for $10 Million by a 25 year old named Jared Kushner.

    1. If you're wondering where a 25 year old got $10 million -- and why that 25 year old would buy a newspaper losing $2 Million/year -- maybe it will help if I note that Jared's father is Charles Kushner.
    1. I see some of you starting to grin.

    Yes, that Charles Kushner.

    The New York Times article re purchase of the Observer gives a small hint of the story
    ************
    " The Kushner name is well known to readers of The Observer and other media outlets, which have given thorough coverage to federal charges against his father, Charles B. Kushner, who was a major Democratic fund-raiser and contributor to James E. McGreevey, the former governor of New Jersey.

    Charles Kushner was sentenced last year to two years in prison after pleading guilty to 18 counts of tax evasion, witness tampering and illegal campaign donations. He also admitted to hiring a prostitute to seduce his brother-in-law and having a videotape of the encounter sent to his sister, the man’s wife, in an attempt to get back at her for cooperating with a federal investigation into his business activities.

    The elder Mr. Kushner now lives in a halfway house in Newark run by the Department of Corrections and is expected to be released in late August. A spokesman for his real estate company, Kushner Companies, said that the son, Jared, had worked for the company until recently. "
    Ref: http://www.nytimes.com/... 31observer.html?ex=1311998400&en=f4991c917bbed5d5&ei=5088& partner=rssnyt&emc=rss
    ********

    1. Heh heh heh . His own SISTER!

    But a CNN story back in 2004 fills in the picture a little better:
    ***********
    New Jersey fund-raiser charged
    Prosecutors say developer tried to block federal probe
    Wednesday, July 14, 2004 Posted: 8:11 AM EDT (1211 GMT)
    NEW YORK (CNN) -- Real estate developer and political fund-raiser Charles Kushner of Livingston, New Jersey, was charged by federal prosecutors Tuesday with conspiracy, obstruction of justice and interstate promotion of prostitution.

    The charges were announced by U.S. Attorney Christopher J. Christie for New Jersey....
    ...In February 2003, Christie's office began investigating Kushner for alleged violation of federal tax and fraud statutes and for purported violation of federal campaign contribution laws.

    According to the indictment, two of the cooperating witnesses in the investigation -- a married couple described as close relatives of Kushner -- provided information against him to federal investigators.

    The indictment alleges that Kushner initiated "a scheme to orchestrate a covert videotaped seduction" of the cooperating male witness in an attempt to thwart the investigation.

    The indictment says Kushner recruited two individuals to hire a woman to have sex with the male witness and later instructed them to mail the videotape to the man's wife, who was the other cooperating witness in the investigation....
    ...According to the Federal Election Commission, Kushner has made more than $1.4 million in individual contributions through his numerous real estate entities.

    The FEC fined Kushner $508,900 last month for contributing money improperly to candidates in the names of his companies, the AP reported.

    Kushner contributed to the campaigns of several prominent Democrats, including Sen. Hillary Clinton of New York, Sen. John Kerry of Massachusetts and Sen. Joseph Lieberman of Connecticut, according to FEC records."

    Ref: http://www.cnn.com/... index.html

    1. No, Wait. It gets better. Why did the Feds get involved to begin with? Anyone remember a certain New Jersey Governor?

    From wikipedia.org's article on Charles Kushner:
    *********
    ""Charles Kushner is a New Jersey real estate magnate and a major donor to Democratic politicians, most notably to Governor of New Jersey Jim McGreevey. On August 19, 2004, he pleaded guilty to tax violations and charges related to witness tampering. The witness tampering charges dealt with an incident in which Kushner tried to use a prostitute in a blackmail scheme. The plea deal does not require Kushner to cooperate with investigators, however....
    ...Kushner sponsored the work visa for Golan Cipel, Governor
    McGreevey's alleged lover. It was suspected that this relationship was used to blackmail the governor"
    *********
    Ref:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/...
    -----------
    Ha ha ha ha. Ole Charles strikes me as someone who could use a Presidental pardon.
    Wonder if Marc Rich told him the going rate?

  •  tape (0+ / 0-)

    diary so it doesnt get lost

  •  forget poland..and forget biden (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Volvagia

    those were good times, as far as we knew --colbert

    by AmericanHope on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 11:34:15 AM PST

  •  Sen. Biden - (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Shockwave

    (D) MBNA

  •  Wow... you're really going to play the same (7+ / 0-)

    swift-boating gotcha politics on this guy that you have been writing against for the past couple of months.

    You should hang your head in shame.

  •  Biden is not a racist, John Kerry doesn't hate (9+ / 0-)

    the troops and I doubt Clinton thinks her husband is evil (a schmuck sure, but not evil). People don't always speak well, we don't need to make a federal case out of it.

  •  the mbna thing WAY more important (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    stephdray, lisastar

    than his other remark- reaction to which I think is perversely overblown- the guy ain't no macaca

    but posts like this are death by friendly fire, huh? Biden's presidential ambitions- which will go unrealized- possibly give his efforts in the Senate some additional leverage (trying to be gracious here) BUT the corporate banking cabal is the most important thing to remember about him (unfortunately)

    there is no fray here- embarrasing excess

    but by all means, please pursue the banking connections because those are meaningful

     

  •  Biden's foot-in-mouth disease (0+ / 0-)

    keeps him from getting the nomination, no question.

    "What is the most important thing in life? People, people, people." -- Maori proverb

    by mkfox on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 11:38:52 AM PST

  •  KOS: Carbone? (0+ / 0-)

    Could you post Carbone's email to you, where he presumably provides an alternative to your "one sided" coverage?

    •  Nah (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      lightnessofbeing, nowheredesign

      not that interesting. He wanted a link to Biden's voting record:

      http://votesmart.org/...

      And wanted to add some quote Biden made on Good Morning America:

      Here is an excerpt from this morning's show: "He is really bright. He's fresh. He's new. He has great ideas. And the question will be whether or not on the campaign trail he fleshes out his ideas. I think experience does matter, but you'd expect me to say that. But, you know, this also relates to judgment, as he says. And so the folks are going to look at all of us. But he is a real star. This is a really incredible person."

      Had Biden's comments in the New York Observer been like the ones he made on GMA, then he'd be blissfully ignored today.

  •  Uhm, "Clean"????????????? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    lirtydies, lightnessofbeing

    Why does that even need to be mentioned?  Would have said Hillary Clinton "seems like a very clean woman"?

    Even with the editing, this is a terrible, idiotic thing to say.

    Read James Loewen's "Sundown Towns"!

    by ChicagoDem on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 11:39:25 AM PST

  •  fucking hack (0+ / 0-)

    another diarrhea-mouthed, ivory tower Senator like Kerry and so many others, who think the world revolves around them and are out of touch with the real world. They're almost as bad as Republican thieves; they steal our time and our hope again and again.

    Diebold! Democracy's premiere supplier of coffin nails since 2002

    by moon in the house of moe on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 11:39:43 AM PST

  •  Biden is an elitist asshole (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    esquimaux

    During the 1988 presidential primary season, I got myself invited to a Wall Street fundraiser for Biden (how I, as a former anti-war political prisoner ended up as a Wall Street investment banker is a story maybe I'll tell sometime, when sufficiently lubricated).

    Biden had just come from some campaign event in some rural area that I can't remember where, and, sensing he was in a "crowd" of like-minded individuals, started talking about how much her preferred to be at a party with bankers than at the political event with "dumb hicks" he had just attended.

    Like I said, an asshole.

    Soldiers are required to do their jobs when politicians fail to do theirs

    by leftvet on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 11:40:52 AM PST

  •  History's Briefest Presidential Candidacy? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    lightnessofbeing

    Whew! Talk about stupid. Biden seems incapable of engaging his mind before putting his mouth in gear.

    We may have just seen a Presidential campaign--a political hot air balloon-- that launched and crashed on the same day.

    Who would now give any money to this clown? Who would volunteer for him?

    Bye-bye, Biden.

  •  c'mon (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Jim J, stephdray

    the definition of articulate does not imply black or white; it implies that one can speak and apply the english language properly. Which Sen. Obama does exquistely. In contrast, a perfect example of a white man who cannot articulate anything,even after benefiting from the best education money can buy, is our boy genius in the White House. But nobody blames that on him being white. I have thought many times how articulate Obama is, but have never thought it had anything to do with his race. I don't care for Biden either, but I highly doubt he would ever intentionally say something like that. He just isn't very articulate, which many white folks are not, myself included. What he was probably trying to say is that Barack Obama is truly gifted in many ways. Ways that Jesse jackson, Carol Mosley Braun and Al Sharpton are not. Storybook is implying that Sen Obama has it all, brains, looks, appeal, youth, celebrity of which Joe Biden wishes he had just one of those qualities. Lighten up people. I was born in  Chicago and lived here my whole life. Jesse Jackson is considered an elder statesman in the black community, and in black communities around the country. Carol Mosely Braun is highly respected in Chicago also. Definitely not fringe. I am sure Biden knows that.

    free the West Memphis 3

    by gingerdue on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 11:43:59 AM PST

  •  Biden's just not presidential material (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    lightnessofbeing, lisastar

    Early in his career Joe Biden for awhile seemed promising, but that was before his plagiarism incident. After that the guy just seemed to recede into the background. He's not a moral leader for this country, because he's too much of a political gumby, which is the same gripe I've got with Hillary.

    PUT THE MONKEY IN A CAGE

    by jimbo92107 on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 11:44:26 AM PST

    •  agreed (0+ / 0-)

      He's no Leiberman though, and it doesn't seem prudent for dems to attack him...Just let this fade along with his presidential hopes, and let him go back to being senatorial.

      Remember to call Congress and call often

      by lisastar on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 12:16:29 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Some Kossacks, Who I Deeply Respect, Disagree.. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    lightnessofbeing

    I can see why you would think that this is making a big deal out of nothing and I respect that. However, what he had said reaffirmed some suspicions I had about him from some personal experiences I witnessed with him.

    To me, it was a matter of time before his classist ethnocentrism eaked out of the darkness and into the limelight.

    I at least hope you (I think some of you know who you are) who disagree with [my] opinion of Biden's words can understand my adverse perception.

    :)

    :::::

    "Let's put a shoe in there!" ~ Haywood Nelson

    by nowheredesign on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 11:47:07 AM PST

  •  Fuck Biden (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    trifecta, lightnessofbeing, kaye

    for the bankruptcy bill alone. And you know once the primaries begin somebody is going to keep rubbing his nose in it. He's going nowhere.

    The lone and level sands stretch far away. -Shelly

    by justme on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 11:48:57 AM PST

    •  We aren't pissed enough about MBNA (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      justme, hornrimsylvia, kaye

      Whore Biden for that. Millions of lives were impacted badly by his fucking whoring for the credit card companies. Most people in bankruptcy are there not because of laziness but because of medical issues and medical bills. Biden took a whole bunch of people with serious health crises and told them to fuck off and pay off with 19% interest until they kick the bucket.

      Fuck Biden.

      You can lead a Republican to knowledge, but you can't make him think.

      by trifecta on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 12:04:07 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  kudos on the update (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    hornrimsylvia, FMArouet

    not to mention instead of trying to unify the Dems at a  time when unification is sorely needed, he is instead trying to triangulate against the left and the right in an attempt to rally the Hawks from both sides of the aisle.

    DAGGER 24 hour news service...your post could make news!

    by lightnessofbeing on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 11:49:14 AM PST

  •  MSNBC is (0+ / 0-)

    referencing the article now.  They are playing it as Biden bad mouthing his opponents.  

    "He has come out swinging against his fellow democrats"

    Pundit -- "Biden just trying to create controversy because he is in the back of the pack."

    "Will Dems hurt their own cauese attacking each other"

    Pundit " Joe Biden is just being Joe Biden.  Not scripted like Hillary.  entertaining"

    "well we have two years to work this out...thanks"

    "She has the name recognition, the money, the glitz, she's got it all." Terry McAuliffe

    by naufragus on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 11:53:38 AM PST

  •  Pretty short exploration (0+ / 0-)

    I gotta get me a 'xploratory committee job. Sounds like EZ money.

    'Course I'm neither bright, clean, nor a nice looking guy. Not since my bout with leprosy.

  •  Kos' ad hominem attack on Biden speaks to me (4+ / 0-)

    Kos said, "So either 1) he's a patronizing asshole, or 2) he's a historical revisionist asshole. Either way, he's an asshole. And either way, the racial element is inescapable."

    My point is simple - anyone who employs the use of ad hominem attack on someone else is as worse, if not moreso, than the person attacked.  

    For more information on the ad hominem fallacy please see:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/...

    "It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." - Mark Twain

    by Casey on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 11:59:46 AM PST

  •  Doesn't it strike anyone as strange that Drudge (0+ / 0-)

    is leading the attack on Joe Biden?

  •  So it's pretty much on record then (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Jim J, stephdray

    These Posts about Biden are neither fair nor balanced.

    The quote no matter how you slice it is tone deaf.  But not racist.  Not revisionist.

    But I'm expecting more from blogs than blogs appear to be capable of.  By the author's own admission.

  •  Markos set up Biden the shiv (5+ / 0-)

    Well, Biden was always going to be the netroots' enemy, since he's sided solidly with the parasite class, most notably on bankruptcy "reform."  

    I just didn't expect to see the victim's blood on the altar so soon.  Biden is a burnt offering.  

    Ba'al is pleased.
    .

  •  Kos that is harsh. (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Jim J, stephdray, Cream City, Finnegan, xanthe

    Joe Biden has his faults.  As do all of the candidates.  But calling him an asshole.  Come on Kos.  We're all on the same side here.

    At least Biden is not a Zell Miller Democratic Senator from the south type of real "asshole".  Nor is he a scum sucking Joe Lieberman type of Democrat (or whatever he is now) from the north (Lieberman = Asshole bigtime).  Biden is just who he is.  A politician.  

    A politician who sticks his foot in his mouth sometimes.  But a politician first and foremost.  And he's trying to beat out everyone else for the nomination.  Can't blame him for trying.

    I agree with you, Biden will end up dropping out.  Everyone knows he won't win the nomination.  But probably neither will Obama.  Or my candidate Edwards.  It's probably going to be Hillary.  Whether you and I like it or not.  

    And speaking of Hillary and Obama and Edwards, they are politicians too.  Politicians all.  And before this primary season is over, they'll all have proven it, ten times over.

    At least John Edwards is the type of politician who has come out firmly and said he made a mistake with his vote to authorize the war.  And when you listen to him talk about that vote now, you get the impression he really does believe he made a mistake and he really is sorry.

    Hillary on the other hand, consumate politician that she is, has yet to say in no uncertain terms, that "....my vote to authorize this war in Iraq was a Mistake..."  She won't say it.  She won't say those words.  "I made a mistake."  Total politician.

    Obama looks good right now.  But only in our dreams will he end up the nominee.  More likely someone's pick for VP.

    "Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed." Abe Lincoln

    by mdgarcia on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 12:10:50 PM PST

  •  Josh Marshall is about to (0+ / 0-)

    Put up the audio of the Biden interview. FYI.

    You can lead a Republican to knowledge, but you can't make him think.

    by trifecta on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 12:13:18 PM PST

  •  Lighten Up on Biden (6+ / 0-)

    I think it's clear that Biden was not suggesting anything other than that Obama is the first "mainstream" African American candidate and that, in addition, he happens to be a lot of very good things s far as politicians go.  Kos's racist explanation is really only reading into it if you want to believe the worst about someone--or want to convince others of the worst of someone.  It's a FoxNews tactic, and beneath Kos.

    To claim that he is an "historical revisionist" is unfair, becaus you're just haggling over what mainstream meant.  No one ever thought that Shirley Chisolm, Al Sharpton, or Carol Mosley-Braun ever had a chance of getting the Democratic nomination (much less actually be elected), either then or in hindsight, no matter how many people they represented (Mosley-Braun, as you recall, lost Obama's Senate seat in a good Democratic year to a winger conservative.)  Wilder may have been serious in 1992, but he dropped out long before the first votes, so he likely did not think he could win.  No one thought that Jesse had a chance in 1984, but he was seen as the first African American to even be mentioned (it ignored Shirley Chisolm, but that was the view at the time).

    The question is how serious do you consider Jesse Jackson in 1988.  I think he did, and alot of his backers too thought that he could actually win the nomination (thus, the 1984 chant of "Run, Jesse, Run" changed to "Win, Jesse, Win").  But I don't think any analyst or commentator at the time considered it likely (most figured that Jackson was trying to, at best, get in line for the VP nod), and histoically it looks doubtful.  But it's hardly revisionist to consider him out of the mainstream.

    Admittedly, by this definition, Biden may not be a mainstream candidate in 2008, either, but that's his problem.

  •  Biden is a friend of Don Imus. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    esquimaux, LV Pol Girl

    Imus' other "friends" include McCain, Santorum, and Lieberman.  I guess that says it, and I guess that's why I avoid Imus.

  •  lol @ your definition of "mainstream" (0+ / 0-)

    Being a senator from any state, no matter how populous, does not by itself imply being "mainstream." That is why we have elected officials to represent a state at the national level in the first place, because each state has its own peculiarities that need to be acknowledged at the national level. At this point, Barack Obama is already much more well-known and recognized than Carol Mosely Braun. As for Jesse Jackson, it is truly laughable to present him as being "mainstream." His appeal was almost entirely to African-Americans, teh every definition of "niche" i.e. "not mainstream."

    In all fairness, Biden can easily be interpreted in the kinder way without being a "revisionist asshole."

  •  Get your fair and balanced here!! (0+ / 0-)

    "I mean, you got the first mainstream US Senator from Delaware, who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy," he said. "I mean, that’s a storybook, man."

    Fair enough, Mr Carbone?

  •  who's more mainstream? (0+ / 0-)

    Joe Biden or Jesse Jackson?

    And before you answer that, ask yourself how many votes each of them got in 1988.

    D-Day, the newest blog on the internet (at the moment of its launch)

    by dday on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 12:24:36 PM PST

  •  Astroturf praise for Biden... (0+ / 0-)

    Check out Biden's blog:  http://blog.joebiden.com/...

    Here are some choice excerpts:  

    "Why Senator Joe Biden? Simple we feel he is the only one qualified to unite and lead this country into the next decade."

    "I want to vote for a candidate who earned the right to be called President. I want to vote for Joe Biden."

    "I applaud his entry into the 2008 race as it seems we who want a Democrat in office now may have an "Actual Candidate" to vote for."

    "Well, we finally have someone in the race for the presidency that is qualified to hold the office, has expressed themselves brilliantly and is sure to become a leader in the race as we move toward 2008."

    "I’m thrilled that Joe Biden is running! I’ve been paying attention to him for years and hoping he would run for President."

    Not one critical comment.  Biden's people are delusional.

  •  GBCK (5+ / 0-)

    Personally, I don't care if it is a troll, a rabid supporter of another candidate or the owner of this site.....Bashing Democratic Candidates is a negative way to manipulate the masses and will result in alienating voters.
    Front-paging a Biden Bashing is disrespectful to fellow Dems supporting Biden and can result in pruning dedicated Dems from the Dkos forest.

    In the Dkos forest, it seems to me:
    Obama and Edwards Supporters are planted in a very sunny spot where they get lots of water and careful attention.
    The Hillary and Biden Supporters are popping out of the ground but get very little nurturing and sometimes get stepped on or weeded out.
    Gore Supporters have been left to grow wild as long as they do not threaten the chosen trees by taking to much nourishment.

    I am discouraged that our forrest is being cut back and destroyed so early in the political process.  I remember, a few years ago, when I looked in on the Republican Forest.  The religious right were the caretakers then.  They burned back what they thought was underbrush.  They planted the trees that gave them the best shade.  Now look at how mighty the Republican forest is.

    I worry that Kos is following their gardening techniques by manipulating the masses into valuing only certain trees.  Hey, it did get Repugs elected and I guess that is the goal of this site.  I, however, want a garden that keeps on growing and giving fruit.....all kinds of fruit.  Not just Kos approved fruit.

    Respectfully,
    Beth

    Please. Run. Al. Please.

    by DemiGoddess on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 12:31:15 PM PST

    •  You want racist fruit? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      DemiGoddess, LV Pol Girl

      I just want to be clear.  Are you defending Biden's remarks?

      •  Watch out there with the tone.. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        DemiGoddess

        Go back and look at her comments before you imply questions of her character.

        She's an asset and although you may disagree with her comment, etc...

        PS: Note the "Respectfully" as it means a lot.

        ::::

        "Let's put a shoe in there!" ~ Haywood Nelson

        by nowheredesign on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 12:58:19 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Yes. He is a white man raised in America (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        CA JAY, nowheredesign

        during a time when race lines were ummmm turning grey.
        I think many many MANY Americans are unintentional racists.  
        I was married to a ....lets see my Daddy would have called him a Negro (if he were being polite).  
        When we first fell in love, 1976, my love called himself Black.  His mother called herself Colored.  I called him Baby.
        We lived together for 5 yrs, one of which we were married.  That was a long time ago.
        Fast forward to 2000something.  I am pulling into my neighborhood.  A young African American teen rode by on his bicycle.  Immediately my thought was, what is a black kid doing in this neighborhood?
        I AM ASHAMED TO PRINT THAT.
        But yes, even a woman who orchestrated a boycott and sit-in of her highschool principle because in 1976 (or so) he segregated the busses our school was using to travel a few hundred miles for the State Basketball Championship.  My efforts got the news crews to our school and the principle fired.
        I then went on to marry a man of a different race than myself.
        I would have had children with him if I was able to have children.  I am the same woman who was taken into state custody because my father found out I was 17 and involved with a black man.
        One day I came home from school to find a state worker waiting to fly me from Las Vegas back to Florida because legally my father had custody of me, though I was living with my mother, and he did not approve of me dating a black man.  I fought him in court and the angriest I have ever gotten was when they REPEATEDLY reminded the Judge that I was with a BLACK man.  I heard that phrase over and over and over and I yelled at the room full of white men......CALL HIM A MAN PERIOD!  I lost my case, so just 6 months before my 18th birthday I was flown from Las Vegas to Florida to restart my life....because the man I loved was Black.
        Soooooo years later, when I saw the young Black teen simply riding his bike in a neighborhood where I had never seen a black face and my mind automatically flashed a Warning Sign......I went home and vomited.

        I cried and cried and cried because I suddenly realized that I was a reluctant racist and it scared the crap out of me!
        Sorry this is rambling and full of errors but I am very passionate about the subject of discrimination and racism.  I felt the need to explain my history and why I think racism is a never ending battle.
        And why I think Biden is not the devil but simply an American who has been brainwashed by his time and place of birth.  I am glad he is being educated and hope that he learns from this.
        I know I have learned from my ugly racist moment.

        Please. Run. Al. Please.

        by DemiGoddess on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 01:00:37 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  As I Said (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          nowheredesign

          As I said elsewhere on this thread, while Biden may not be a bigot, he did make a racist remark.

          Do you think Biden should apologize?

          •  Ok now you are opening up another area of my life (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            cdndem, nowheredesign

            Forced Apology.
            NO
            Never!
            I think he should be honest.  
            I put myself through college by working as a pre-school teacher.  It was drilled into our heads that a forced apology from one child to another is teaching the one child to lie and forcing the other child to stand there while being lied to.  Neither child benefits unless you call gloating at a shamed child who was forced to apologize a benefit...I don't.
            Explaining to the child who hurt the other child is the key.  TEACH the child why what he did was wrong.  Don't force him to lie.  Don't cut off the offending hand.  Make a better person of the child by training and teaching.

            Please. Run. Al. Please.

            by DemiGoddess on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 01:25:02 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

    •  I can dig what you are saying... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      DemiGoddess

      I think that one of my comments went a little far. Sorry about that. Sometimes, the wagon is too tempting to jump on. However, I reiterate my original opinion about Biden based on my own personal experience.

      After all, you, specifically are a big part of the reason that I spend my time here ad Daily Kos...

      PS: What on earth does does GBCK mean?

      :)

      ::::

      "Let's put a shoe in there!" ~ Haywood Nelson

      by nowheredesign on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 12:54:48 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  listen to the tape (6+ / 0-)

    After hearing the actual audiotape of Biden's remarks, I think Kos has gone way overboard with this.  It isn't just speculation that the first part of the statement is separate from the second, it's the reality.  There's a pretty long pause between those two comments, more than would be represented by a comma.  If you typed the quote and represented it grammatically, I think you'd put a period there.

    Listen for yourself:

    http://www.brightcove.com/...

    Also note the pause and the "sort of" between "first" and "mainstream" that isn't in the published quote at all.

  •  THANK YOU, KOS! (0+ / 0-)

    Thanks for being "fair and balanced".

    And for telling both sides of the Joe Biden story.  We've all suffered enough under the imperial reign of these sellouts.

    Ned Lamont for US House of Representatives (CT-04) in 2008

    by bincbom on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 12:35:21 PM PST

  •  Repunctuation (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Jim J, Tybalt

    It's definitely just a matter of punctuation,  it  just takes a little work .....snip.... oof... hammer hammer... lick of paint.... ok, done:

    "I mean, you got the first! Mainstream African?? American! Who is articulate? And bright and clean and a nice? Looking, guy," he said. "I mean, that’s a story! Book, man."

    See? It's fine now.

  •  Exactly! (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    kosophile, hopscotch1997

    The rewriting of history here is amazing. Jesse Jackson - the front runner in 1988? OMG and Carol Mosley Bruan had as much chance of being a major contendor as my cat.

  •  guppies (3+ / 0-)

    Guppies eat their young--Democrats are good swimmers.  Let's not attack Dems--even those we don't like--that's why there's a FAUX station.  Who knows, maybe lightening will strike, and our 2008 choice will be Biden vs. McCain--making a big deal about things like this will not GOTV in minority areas.

  •  Well, Biden was sympathetic to kerry (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bam bam, Cream City, hopscotch1997

    when Kerry made his gaffe, so maybe we should all give Biden a break this time.

    Look at these people! They suck each other! They eat each other's saliva and dirt! -- Tsonga people of southern Africa on Europeans kissing.

    by upstate NY on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 12:40:58 PM PST

  •  Biden's director of online communication (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Tybalt

    Update: I got an email from claiming I'm giving a "one-sided impression" of Biden. Aside from the fact that this poor guy (Eric Carbone) thinks blogs are supposed to be "fair and balanced", it's true, I've completely forgotten to write about the other side of the story -- how Biden is a bought and paid for subsidiary of MBNA. When Bank of America acquired MBNA, Biden was likely part of the package deal.

    LOL that'll teach carbone to complain

    IMPEACH THE CHEERLEADER... SAVE THE WORLD! © ®

    by KnotIookin on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 12:42:00 PM PST

  •  If you take DE out of Biden, you get BIN. (0+ / 0-)

    Why hasn't Hannity realized what we're up against here?  The man is obviously a terrorist sympathizer.

    Seriously though, before the bankruptcy vote I sent my little email begging Biden to vote nay.  I mentioned that though I didn't live in that state, a lot of people would remember his vote if he decided to run for Prez.  Didn't get a reply.

    Now that he's contracted Bush-lexia I guess it really doesn't matter.

      RICHARDSON-OBAMA IN 2008

                       or

      OBAMA-CLARK IN 2008

                      OR

     

    "Yes dear. Conspiracy theories really do come true." (tuck, tuck)

    by tribalecho on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 12:44:45 PM PST

  •  "Biden just trying to create controversy ... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jfern

    because he is in the back of the pack."  Yep... I choose door #2.

    I don't see his statement as racist as much as I see it as sardonic.  There is a difference.

    If that little reply is going to provoke y'all to call JB an a**hole now, then y'all better get out of the kitchen, because it's gonna get hotter than that for ever'body!

    "I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy," he said. "I mean, that’s a storybook, man."

    He could have left out "clean," but I surmise that he meant "clean" insofar as character rather than hygiene.  

    As for "mainstream" -- meh, that's much ado about nothing too.  Neither Jesse Jackson nor Al Sharpton are "mainstream" in the American political system sense, unless you count poverty pimps as "mainstream."  Carol Mosely Braun had the unfortunate circumstance of mating poorly, thereby scandalizing what would have been a good name when she ran for president.  Although, personally, I think most of those who ran when Braun did, shouldn't have, including Braun.  

    Now Joe ain't knowledgeable enough about the history of blacks running for the presidency to go all the way back to Shirley Chisholm in '72, who was as clean, if not as mainstream, as Obama. Though I don't care for his reply, I ain't mad at him for making it.  A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do to create buzz for an otherwise ignored presidential run.  Maybe he's even somewhat presicent, capping on Obama first before he caps on Edwards or Clinton.

    So, no, as a black woman who's seen her share of presidential races, I'd say Joe wasn't necessarily being an anus or a racist; he's only being Joe the way, way, waaayyy backrunner, frontin' on Obama a top three frontrunner.  Probably, that's what he meant about "mainstream" -- frontrunning leader of the pack.

    Heh.

                                             title=

    "See, we love -- we love freedom. That's what they didn't understand. They hate things; we love things. They act out of hatred; we don't seek revenge, we seek justice out of love."- George W. Bush August 29, 2002 Oklahoma City, Oklahoma

    "The price of greatness is responsibility." ~ Winston Churchill

    by 99 Percent Pure on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 12:45:15 PM PST

  •  Why labels are illogical and detrimental... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Cream City, hopscotch1997

    Just look at how much effort, time and space has been given to a label and its definition.  What a waste.

    How beneficial it is when we move the label issue asside and focus on the issues and a person's good points, bad points and contribution.

  •  Clean? Clean? Clean!!! Are you stoned! (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Tybalt

    Can anyone remember a white politician ever being complimented by saying he's "clean"?  Where ever the comma was omitted, if a comma was omitted, "clean" is a real insultingly back handed compliment to give an Ivy League grad and U. S. Senator.  After reading the entire interview (in which Biden slimes Hillary and Edwards, too), I say to Biden what Mr. Hand said to Spiccoli in Ridgemont High:  "Are you stoned?"

  •  Nuts by 2008 (5+ / 0-)
    We will all be crazy by 2008 if we cant refrain from making a big deal about misstatements.Biden is infamous for putting his foot in his mouth.Focus on his performance on the Senate Armed Services committee.Hopefully he will have some credibility left when this blows over.
  •  Time for Dailysomeoneelse (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Jim J, kosophile, Finnegan, hopscotch1997

    That wasn't racist, sorry - and if someone you were championing had said it, you'd be defending them to the death.  You're playing the middle just like a Republican, Kos - I know you're a partisan, and proud of it, but that doesn't take bad logic and turn it logical.  It's not like you've never put your foot in your mouth, and you have the luxury of being able to put lots of thought into what you say before you type it.  Granted, you aren't a politician.  Cold comfort.

  •  I hate to look like a defender of Biden (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Jim J, DelRPCV, pitbullEmily, kosophile

    but how irrelevant was Kos's update to the initial update, what does MBNA (reason I disdain Biden) have to do with this particular issue? Kos if you are truly apathetic about the veracity of any allegations you make against Biden simply because you don't like the guy because of a completely different reason, you have gone to a place you don't want to go.

    How is the MBNA issue the other side of the story? It has nothing to do with whether or not he is a racist. This is not splitting hairs here, this is about having a modicum of respect for honest debate. I mean, I can't wait for Biden to fall on his face, but dude, there is still a line isn't there?

  •  There are plenty of reasons to dislike Biden (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Jim J, kosophile, hopscotch1997

    but racism doesn't seem to be one of them. We all rail against our representatives for talking too much in generalities (Hillary Clinton anyone?) but when they get specific and tell it like it is we all scream __ism!" is it any wonder none of them ever say anything of substance?

    Now, people had lost their fear. From that moment I knew we would win. - Oscar Olivera

    by Josh Prophet on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 12:54:36 PM PST

  •  the actual quote (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    DelRPCV

    Here's the audio:

    http://www.brightcove.com/...

    And here's what I think would be an accurate grammatical representation, if anyone bothered with that:

    Biden:  "I mean, you got the first ... sort of mainstream ... African-American."  

    Reporter: "Yeah"

    Biden:  "Who is articulate and bright ... and ... and and clean and nice-looking guy.  

    Reporter:  "Mmm hmm"

    Biden:  "I mean, it's ... that's a storybook, man."

  •  Outkast, "So Fresh, So Clean" (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Tybalt

    "Ain't nobody dope as me I'm dressed so fresh so clean
    (So fresh and so clean clean)
    Don't you think I'm so sexy I'm dressed so fresh so clean
    (So fresh and so clean clean)
    Ain't nobody dope as me I'm dressed so fresh so clean
    (So fresh and so clean clean)
    I love when you stare at me I'm dressed so fresh so clean
    (So fresh and so clean clean)"

    Wouldn't that be something if Obama started using this as a campaign theme song?  Even if only to taunt Biden?!?

  •  Audio of Biden interview (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Jim J, pitbullEmily, kosophile

    I actually think he is getting a bit of a bad rap for this...Listen to the audio...there is obviously a pause between African-American and articulate, etc....I never would use the word "articulate" when speaking about a non-white person, but what Biden says here is silly, not offensive....

    Just my thoughts...I am interested in what others think:

    Link: http://www.brightcove.com/...

    -

    I got the woofers in my jeep

    by Volvo Liberal on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 12:59:31 PM PST

    •  Agreed (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      pitbullEmily, kosophile

      this is another mountain out of a molehill. Whether or not you agree with Biden's, shall we say, unfortunate choice of words with "articulate," the audio clearly shows that he was originally quoted significantly out of context. Heard live, his take doesn't seem that unreasonable -- again, apart from the grating "articulate" thing.

      Whether or not Biden shows the judgment to be president is of course the more germane angle to all this and a separate debate altogether.

    •  what on earth does that mean? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      kosophile

      why would you never use the word `articulate' when speaking about a non-white person?  what exactly does that mean? the dictionary definitions for the word allows for it  to be used in the sense of articulation of joints, or expressing oneself easily, readily and clearly. In other words in the context one would assume it was meant here it was probably intended as a compliment and only idiots would believe otherwise (or those looking for nits to pick), and my nit pick is why would one differentiate in stating how one would speak to a white or a non-white. Do we have guidelines laid down for how we are supposed to speak to various categories of individuals - race, creed, gender, age etc. etc. This is really silly and i do believe America is in for some more civics surprises in the coming two years, as well as being forced to come to grips with our latent racism as well as our more blatant prejudices. I guess maybe the underlying sub-theme to this singularly weird debate is that no non-white person who has run before should have been taken seriously (how does one define 'mainstream' anyway?) If you want to pick more nits! then Senator Barack Obama is the first African (father, Kenyan) American (mother, American) to ever run for office. Condemn Biden all you want for his positions, opinions and votes, don't crucify him for constantly putting his foot in his mouth. You are doing exactly what the Swift boaters did to John Kerry.

      •  It's a slur... (0+ / 0-)

        Throughout the 70s and 80s (and actually through today, though not as much), white people often described African-Americans as "articulate." It was a subtle way of saying, "yeah, this one is smart, but the others aren't," like there was a surprise that a black person could speak intelligently.

        Ask any black person what they think when they are called "articulate" by a white person....

        Trust me on this one, Grandma....

        -

        I got the woofers in my jeep

        by Volvo Liberal on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 01:55:38 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I'll certainly accept your explanation (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          hopscotch1997

          from your cultural perspective. However I must confess that I come more from the Monty Python school of offensive comments. I would never have dreamed that calling someone articulate if they were black was an insult!  that seems to me to be such unbelievably convoluted reverse discrimination or political correctness gone berserk. Frankly I would not hesitate to call a rapper articulate in the purely complimentary tones of being able to express himself so his audience comprehends the subtleties of his meanings. For example I think that the Rev Al is an extremely articulate man and would never dream I was insulting him by judging him by the same standards I would judge Bill Clinton, who is also most articulate. Another case of the English language having a myriad of cultural contexts that make communicating akin to walking through a swamp in alligators up to one's arse.

  •  It is ridiculous how everyone is piling on Biden! (4+ / 0-)

    I thought I was reading National Review Online. Boy, liberals love to eat their own!

  •  Mosley Braun wasn't mainstream, we *all* know it. (6+ / 0-)

    I'm not a Biden fan.  Not at all, in fact.  But you're still blowing this one way out of proportion.

    Jesse Jackson won primaries, but he did so specifically by providing a challenge to the mainstream candidate.  That was the core of his strategy.

    Carol Mosley Braun may have represented Illinois in the Senate, but she had also lost her senate reelection battle.  She was never more than a margin-of-error candidate, the candidate to the left of Kucinich.

    It isn't historical revisionism to say that Obama is the first mainstream African American candidate.  And he IS articulate and bright.  And there IS a storybook quality to his election, we've been looking for a hero in the Democratic party for years, and this guy stepped on stage at the convention and blew the doors and windows off the place.  This could all fit pretty easily into a West Wing story arc.

    So I say Biden is a bad candidate who made a tiny gaffe and doesn't stand a snowball's chance this year anyway.  But as gaffes go, this one isn't all that interesting.

  •  Kos=Fox News! (4+ / 0-)

    This just how Fox handles this kind of story. Good Job Kos

  •  Biden Always was the First on TV to Bash Dean (0+ / 0-)

    Whenever possible - over everything and anything. He couldn't get in front of the cameras fast enough to bash his fellow democrat Dean.  Good riddence to his presidential ambitions - jerk.

    •  And now we know (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      kosophile, Finnegan

      what spawned the antipathy. I love Howard Dean, but not every criticism of him is unwarranted. If we're just gonna write off everyone who doesn't bow at the altar of St. Howard, we're gonna have a pretty small church.

      Listening to a Bush speech is like cleaning the toilet: it's a dirty job, but if you don't do it, the shit just piles up without a fight.

      by AtlantaJan on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 01:37:51 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Love this rejoinder, Kos! (0+ / 0-)

    Update: I got an email from Biden's director of online communication claiming I'm giving a "one-sided impression" of Biden. Aside from the fact that this poor guy (Eric Carbone) thinks blogs are supposed to be "fair and balanced", it's true, I've completely forgotten to write about the other side of the story -- how Biden is a bought and paid for subsidiary of MBNA. When Bank of America acquired MBNA, Biden was likely part of the package deal.

    This is why we love you, Markos.  Damn, this is right out of the Jon Tester Book of Sheer Damn Manliness.

    •  ? (0+ / 0-)

      Wow. The clear message here is never piss off someone who buys printer cartridges by the barrel.

      Listening to a Bush speech is like cleaning the toilet: it's a dirty job, but if you don't do it, the shit just piles up without a fight.

      by AtlantaJan on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 01:36:17 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Let's think of his good points for a sec (5+ / 0-)

    Biden has an unusual personal history that should be considered.  Just after he was first elected, his wife was killed in a car accident along with his daughter.  He took his oath of office at his injured son's bedsides.  He commuted to and from Washington so he could take care of them while they recovered.  He had a scare with an aneurism.  It took him 7 months to recover.  
    Am I a big Joe Biden fan?  No, no more than I am a Hillary fan or an Obama fan.  But you got to give Biden credit for not collapsing in the face of so much sorrow.  He gets points for personal fortitude.
    He still sucks on the credit card thing and let's not even go there on the IWR, which he voted for.  But this "gaffe" is wholey manufactured against him.  Just like Obama's madrassa problem, Kerry's bad joke and Hillary's breathing problem (The problem is her breathing irritates Chris Matthews).  
    We know what the corporate aristocracy is capable of.  We knew it was coming.  Every candidate is going to have to be extra careful of everything they say.  It's either that, or they have to put the bastards in their place right now.  Maybe the Dem candidates should get together and lay down some ground rules for the press.  It's past time.  

    -3.63, -4.46 "Choose something like a star to stay your mind on- and be staid"

    by goldberry on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 01:15:29 PM PST

  •  GOTCHA! (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    AtlantaJan, kosophile

    I love how different the progressive blogs are from the right wing blogs.

    Will we have next have a FP diary on Hillary singing off-key?

    Yeah, Biden is an asshole.. but not because of this.

  •  Today's mountain, yesterday's molehill. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    kosophile

    Why the hell are people mentioning Martin Luther King and Shirley Chisholm? Biden was clearly referring to Obama's status as the first black presidential hopeful around whom there exists a consensus that he is a competitive candidate with a legitimate shot at winning the nomination and even the general election.

    Not only will this not kill Biden's candidacy, if he plays it off well enough he could spin it into his very own Straight Talk Express. You know as we get further into campaign season someone discussing Obama's lack of experience at the federal level is going to slip and call him a "boy" and Biden's gaffe will be a distant memory.

    "I hate war as only a soldier who has lived it can, as one who has seen its brutality, its stupidity." - President Eisenhower

    by mcearlgrey on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 01:33:53 PM PST

  •  FORGET BIDEN GET BUSH (0+ / 0-)

    "He hasn't gotten elected yet. He hasn't even gotten the party's nomination. He's an attractive guy. He's articulate," Bush said in an interview with Fox News

  •  Good adjectives to compliment intern, bank clerk (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    orphanpower

    When you think of it, the adjectives "clean", "articulate", "bright" and "nice-looking" are not compliments when applied to Senator Obama, although they would be in referring to a newly hired college intern or entry-level bank clerk.  These adjectives are not really praise because they are the basic requirements for an entry-level service or professional job, but Senator Obama is running for President of the United States.

    For a magna cum laude graduate of Harvard Law School who was Editor of the Law Review and then elected to the US Senate, "bright" is really an insultingly modest adjective.  Appropriate adjectival phrases would have been "brilliant", "very handsome", "extremely articulate in his expression of a mainstream vision" and "impeccable moral fiber".  THAT would be a compliment!

    But the fact that Biden minimizes Senator Obama's qualities with faint praise AND THEN STILL shows amazement that the Black Senator possesses such qualities does call into question Biden's judgment and his frame of reference.

    And yet Biden has been a pretty good Senator and rarely if ever voted in a way that would manifest animus.  

    But, Biden proved today that he can't be trusted not to trip over his own tongue.

  •  probably news update (0+ / 0-)

    Thursday Feb 1

    Senator Joe Biden announced that he was checking into therapy today. "Recent idiotic statements that I have made indicate that I need a full theraputic workout to get to the core of my problem."

    Apparently he has scheduled an appointment with Dr. Wonky, the same therapist that is counseling Mel Gibson and Isiah Washington. "I had no idea that therapy was such a great job," said Dr. Wonky. "These days I am limiting my business to celebrity clients only. You would not believe the kind of money I am making".

  •  Kos, you've shocked me (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    kosophile, DemiGoddess

    I'm surprised you jumped on this and so harshly.  I'm no fan of Biden's or MBNA, but this case seems to me to be looking for something that isn't there.  Which hurts 'the cause,' I think.

    In this media saturated, sound-bite world, the tiniest utterance easily gets mis-understood, twisted and presented without context. Not helpful to reasoned discourse.

    And tho' I'm not sure I get the MBNA reference, if Biden has a race issue, here are some people at the bank he can talk to...

    Penelope J. Taylor

    Penelope Taylor is a Vice Chairwoman of MBNA America. Her current responsibilities are to develop and assist with the implementation of strategies that focus on recruitment, career development, diversity, retention, and education. Ms. Taylor joined MBNA in 1986 and previously served as the director of Sales, Marketing, and Group Administration for the Educator Sector managing MBNA’s largest Customer. She has held several management positions in Customer Satisfaction and Personnel at both MBNA and Maryland National Bank, where she began her financial services career in retail banking in 1972.

    Ms. Taylor is a graduate of the College of Notre Dame of Maryland, where she received both her Undergraduate and Masters degrees. She is a life member of the NAACP, a charter member of the Maryland Association of Urban Bankers, and a member of the Urban Financial Services Coalition. She currently serves on the Board of Directors of the Metropolitan Wilmington Urban League. She is also a founder and charter member of the National Coalition of 100 Black Women, Delaware Chapter, and a Trustee of the Christiana Care Corporation and The Grand Opera House. Most recently, Ms. Taylor was elected to serve on the Board of Trustees of the College of Notre Dame of Maryland.

    Mr. David G. Turner
    Senior Executive, Card Services Development, Bank of America

    Mr. David G. TurnerDavid G. Turner is the Card Services Development Executive at Bank of America, responsible for developing new products and managing product profitability. He and his team of some 300 people generate more than $3 billion in revenues. Mr. Turner joined MBNA America in July 2003 and was a group executive and member of the executive committee that created the bank's research and development department. Upon Bank of America's acquisition of MBNA America in January 2006, Mr. Turner assumed the position of Product Development/Product Management and Sales Executive. Before joining Bank of America, Mr. Turner held executive positions at Gateway Inc. and AT&T Corp.

    Milton H. Jones, Jr.

    Milton H. Jones, Jr. is chief operating officer for the Office of the Chief Financial Officer at Bank of America.
    Aside from his bank duties, Mr. Turner Turner was recognized by Fortune magazine as one of the "50 Most Powerful Black Executives in America" in 2002. He was twice recognized by US Black Engineer and Information Technology magazine as one of the 50 most important blacks in technology. Mr. Turner graduated from Delaware State University, earned a masters degree from Farleigh Dickinson University and completed the Dartmouth–Amos Tuck Executive MBA Program.

    Changing America 1 cup at a time. The freedom you fight for today, could very well be the freedom your fellow citizen will need tomorrow!

    by coffeeinamrica on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 01:59:59 PM PST

  •  Joe Biden is a racist with more hair than brains! (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    rgdurst, Sagittarius, soccergrandmom

    Here's what Aravosis at AmericaBlog had to say about this brouhaha:

    Okay, what Biden was trying to say, I think, was that Obama is quite possibly the first serious black presidential candidate who doesn't scare white people (or at least a good segment of white people). And I think that's true. Jesse Jackson? Scary (yeah, a lot of you like him, a lot of us don't). Alan Keyes? Insane. Al Sharpton? I find him funny, but he's still fighting the Tawana Brawley image. What other serious black candidates have we had? So, yes, in that context, Obama is the first candidate that doesn't routinely scare white people - and that's part of the reason Republicans are trying to smear him as a scary madrassa-attending radical Muslim.

    Here's my response:
    What Biden said, and meant, comma or no comma, was racism pure and simple. There's no gravy that can make that white rice racism edible. It can't be explained away, and no linguist, semanticist, or apologist can make it better. It is what it is.

    As for the scariness of African-American men, that's racist bullshit too. Guiliani married his cousin, serially cheated and humiliated his wives, promoted and enabled police brutality, but despite all that, he's the GOP presidential front-runner. Newt divorced his wife while she was recovering from cancer surgery, refused to financially support her or their children, was another serial adulterer, was an ethics violator, but he was elected Speaker of the House and is constantly lauded as the architect of the "Contract with America." McCain dumped his first wife so he could marry a rich woman and has explosive public temper tantrums, but he's a MSM darling and still considered a GOP presidential front-runner. As far as I'm concerned, they're the ones who are truly scary, indeed frightening in their ability to fool the (white) general public and appeal to the mainstream.

    What's my point? It should be obvious, that being "clean" is only a priority if the candidate is African-American. Racism, pure and simple.

    Jesse Jackson has negotiated with countries around the world to secure the release of hostages. Both Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton have led countless voter registration drives in this country, which have exponentially increased the number of Democratic voters, many of whom would never consider voting for either Jackson or Sharpton mainly due to the ridicule Jesse and Al receive from the MSM.

    No, Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton aren't mainstream. Neither are Carol Moseley Braun or Julian Bond. Obviously, Shirley Chisholm and Barbara Jordan weren't mainstream. Until these racist attitudes - some subtle, others quite overt - are changed, no African-American who looks distinctly Black, who cares about African-American issues, and who embraces his African as well as his American heritage will ever be considered mainstream.  

    Yes, Jesse can rhyme and Al can make us laugh, but when you get to the bare bones of their message, an sapient objective listener realizes that neither is extremist, far left wing, or on the fringe. They are two gentlemen who happen to believe that the Constitution should mean what it says and this country should be to the least of its citizens exactly what is it to the greatest, that is, an opportunity to live ones life freely, with liberty and justice for all, with the potential to discover all the wonderful empowering possibilities that life has to offer.

    Here at Kos and other blogs, there is - on a regular basis - much scorn, contempt, and condescension heaped on Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton. The mainstream corporate media has made sure that most Americans know little about either Jesse or Al, except for "hymie town" and Tawana Brawley respectively. Now I'm seeing, with HDTV clarity, that white middle-class mainstream America is stuck in those time warps, preferring to do so, because to move on and accept the authenticity of their causes, the veracity of their platforms, the patriotism that underlies their political activism would be to accept their own inherent racism . I'm so saddened to realize that. As I've said before, but it bears repeating, I detest racist wolves cloaking themselves in progressive sheep's clothing.

    The greatest of faults, I should say, is to be conscious of none. -- Thomas Carlyle

    by LizOnlineInGa on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 02:09:09 PM PST

    •  this is without doubt the nugget of gold (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      rgdurst

      in this day's sink of sludge. A very thoughtful and sensitive analysis of what Isee as an incresin discomfort with both a white woman and a black man having the temerity to run for the gighrest office in the land. It is becoming a very white middle-aged divide, and smacks of biried latent racial and gender fear. I can't use the term 'mainstream' because I have absolutely no idea what that means in such a diverse and fractured nation. in casre thjis comment gets misplaced I refer to 'LizOnlinein Ga'.

  •  Wait till the neurologist sings (0+ / 0-)

    I guess I've already posted this 8 million times over in the diaries, but Biden underwent treatment for a brain aneurysm in 1988.

    It seems to me that comments this bizarre (even if he was just trying to say Obama was the first "clean, articulate" presidential contender, that's still an awfully bizarre thing to say to a reporter) are evidence that the guy needs a serious medical evaluation.

    Maybe he's just drunk, or suffering from the same virus I seem to have caught, but maybe he has another aneurysm or some other problem in the part of the brain that keeps people from saying stupid things. (Maybe it's the "dorsolateral prefrontal cortex"?)

    If the guy doesn't release results of some kind of physical or psychological exam in an effort to explain the remarks, I guess we have to take them at face value, but my suspicion is that Biden wouldn't have said any such thing 1987.

    And, yes, maybe had some fleeting racist thoughts in 1987, just as all of us have thoughts we wished we didn't have. But there's a difference between us all having the Bad Captain Kirk inside us hankering after Yeoman Rand (or a Bad Yeoman Rand inside us hankering after Captain Kirk) and actually saying monumentally stupid things to a reporter.

    •  for the sakes of everyone who plans on running (0+ / 0-)

      for office some day, I hope all these blogs can get deleted. Imagine Kos when he runs for California Senator to be confrinted with all his diaries!

      •  There's a difference between writing (0+ / 0-)

        off the cuff in a blog, or even writing stridently conservative stuff as James Webb used to do as a private citizens, and implying that Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton were both either dirty or inarticulate.

        •  Oh yeah, did we all not rip (0+ / 0-)

          into Joe Klein when he wrote his 'blog' not his column in Time. Yes, we did, the critics don't care or are you implying that what we write in blogs does not need to rise to the standards of paid punditry?  

          •  No writing rises to the standards of what (0+ / 0-)

            professional politicians say to reporters.

            Every politician, from the Podunk, New Nowhere, school board on up knows that you don't say such a think to a reporter on the record, or, really on the record.

            If Biden says he was trying to present the view of, say, Karl Rove, and the reporter missed the irony, that I could believe.

            But I can't believe that a healthy professional politician would say what Biden said.

            We here gave Klein guff over what he wrote in his blog, but, in general, no one really cares what people write in blogs. The fact that Markos occasionally gets targeted is simply evidence that the Bush Rovie smear machine sometimes chooses him as a target on a slow day, not people care all that much about blog writing.

            Of course, the smear campaign team can try to use Markos's words against him, but they could use any words against him, or make up the words. The smear campaign people do their job through clever use of smear-y syntax and innuendo, not, really, through use of particularly outrageous facts, statements or writings. If Markos was created today as a fresh clone without a past, and he ran for president in 2008 (because the clone was treated as if it were 35), the smear machine could figure out some way to smear him.

            So, if Markos is writing something truly horrible and repugnant, of course, that's wrong and foolish. If he's writing something that might somehow get twisted against him, he ought to suck it up and recognize that he's still a Marine.

            •  What!!!!!! the f....are you talking about? (0+ / 0-)
              •  Markos has gotten himself into a tough game (0+ / 0-)

                At some point, the Bush Rovie smear machine or its successor organization may try destroy him, and may very well succeed.

                That is not any reason for Markos to censor himself. In part, because the smear machine will find a way to smear him even if he lives a saintly, apparently unsmearable life.

                The Bush Rovie smear machine often uses bits and pieces of reality in its work, but it can manufacture completely artificial smears, if suitable bits of reality are not available.

                Given the nature of the game Markos is in, it's incumbent on him to do his best to ignore the Bush Rovie smear machine and simply write what he believes is important and true as long and as often as possible.

                Anyhow, I guess from your tone that you just like to put people down and aren't interested in communicating with me. I put the attempted clarification here just in case the typos in my comment confused other people reading this thread.

  •  Loose Lips Sink Ships. (0+ / 0-)

    Biden is sunk. As it should be. Joey B. didn't mean for this to come out as a racist slur, but it surely did (and was, though he didn't consciously know that.) But, as always, P. T. "The Greatest Show on Earth" Biden  just coudn't resist playing to the crowd. That's his schtick. (Think 7-11, Indian accents, slave state, confederate flag, etc.) But, as as I wrote here  a couple of weeks ago, Biden is a pitiful panderer. He will say anything to any audience that he thinks will get them into a raucus frenzy. Unfortunately, that doesn't work too well on the international stage. I mean, just look at the bumbling, inarticulate, slaughterer of the English language we've got now. Do we really want to replay that tune? No way. Biden should do us all a favor and quit this ridiculous charade.

    http://www.thewholeamericanhog.com

    by Bocotton on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 02:55:38 PM PST

  •  Yeah, calling him an asshole is one-sided (0+ / 0-)

    The other side is that he's a dick.

  •  Obama says it not offensive (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    hopscotch1997

    and is not offended by it so should we be?

    "There is nothing wrong with America can't be cured by what is right with America" -Bill Clinton

    by SensibleDemocrat on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 03:24:04 PM PST

    •  Obama not offended (0+ / 0-)

      Obama may not have been offended, but I was.

      Senator Biden is running for president, not for Senator Obama's best friend. Senator Obama has the right to forgive him on a personal level.

      Senator Biden has been around long enough to be able insult a fellow senator without the collateral damage. He should be able to shine the light on his (Biden's) long experience and Obama's lack without dragging others into the fight.

      I'm sick of inarticulate presidents. (Joe Biden doesn't care about Black people.)

      Also, we're discussing former candidates and whether they were mainstream or fringe. Biden is fringe -- no chance to be president.

  •  Biden was not racist but innacurate as Kos showed (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    hopscotch1997

    Still, he should be given a chance to explain himself and what he ment.

    I'm waiting...

  •  I hate him, but give him a break (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    kosophile, hopscotch1997
    I despise Joe Biden as much as the next guy, but come on!  Give the guy a freakin' break or at least the benefit of the doubt until we know how it was really phrased.

    We wonder why our representatives are afraid to speak up sometimes.  You can't blame them for being so paranoid about being on perfect message instead of actually speaking extemporaneously what they believe.

  •  kos, i love you! (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    5x5

    your wit and honesty is so refreshing - please do not ever change :)

  •  Biden AIPAC puppet (0+ / 0-)

      Let's hear him discuss the $100,007.00 he's taken from AIPAC to subvert US policy in favor of a foreign government, killing thousands of innocent people as a result.
       Rabbit

  •  No Disrespect, But . . . (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    DemiGoddess

    Jesse Jackson and Carol Mosely Braun, while both individuals with something to say, were both under clouds of sorts when they ran for president.

    Braun had ethical issues, and quickly lost her Senate seat.  Jackson had his womanizing, his "Hymietown" crack, and questions regarding how he came to be so well-off as a humble man o' the cloth, and servant of the poor.  Braun had limited experience in public office, and Jackson none.  Credible voices for African-Americans, perhaps, but not credible as candidates likely to win anything.

    Likewise, Al Sharpton (whose remarks at the debates were often spot-on and painful reminders of how marginal issues that garnered attention in the1960s and 1970s have become) had the scandal involving the Tawana Brawley matter in his past.  Al's no saint, actually, but while he never had a chance of hell of being elected president, I'm glad he's out there, and glad he says the things he says, or at least MOST of the things he says.

    Obama is the first "mainstream" black presidential candidate, if the definition of "mainstream" is simply someone who has a credible chance of winning the nomination of a major party and, just possibly, getting elected.  Non-Hispanic blacks are only about 12% of the overall US population, and Obama is likely to garner a lot more votes from white people than Jesse Jackson, Carol Mosely Braun, Al Sharpton or the other African-American candidates could have dreamed of.  

    I'm unconvinced that Obama is thick-skinned enough or experienced enough to be president.  I like him a lot, nevertheless, and applaud his antiwar position and his offering a credible plan to extricate us from the quagmire, and Joe Biden ought to have kept his yap shut.

    Actually, Joe Biden isn't the worst Merkan politician, but I'm sure sick of seeing him on the Sunday blatherfests, and if Biden talked a great deal less, he and the rest of us would be better off for it.

    9/11/2001 NEVER FORGET. "Things do not happen. They are made to happen." (John F. Kennedy)

    by Oatmeal Porridge on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 05:05:20 PM PST

  •  Dumb Comment (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    kosophile
    I don't support Biden for president. However, what I think he meant was this:

    1) Obama is the first black candidate who appeals to mainstream (read: white suburban swing voters) voters.

    2) Those voters don't see him in the same vein that they would perceive someone like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton.

    3) Those voters would perceive Jackson and Sharpton to be radical, out-of-the-mainstream, and threatening.

    4) Obama can transcend those dynamics because he doesn't have the baggage that Jackson and Sharpton would bring.

    Biden's comment was stupid and probably semibigoted. I don't think he had bad intentions, but it was politically stupid.

    http://www.keen.com/jiacinto For DC related travel advice, please visit that link.

    by jiacinto on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 05:44:27 PM PST

  •  Dumb Comment (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    5x5
    I don't support Biden for president. However, what I think he meant was this:

    1) Obama is the first black candidate who appeals to mainstream (read: white suburban swing voters) voters.

    2) Those voters don't see him in the same vein that they would perceive someone like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton.

    3) Those voters would perceive Jackson and Sharpton to be radical, out-of-the-mainstream, and threatening.

    4) Obama can transcend those dynamics because he doesn't have the baggage that Jackson and Sharpton would bring.

    Biden's comment was stupid and probably semibigoted. I don't think he had bad intentions, but it was politically stupid.

    http://www.keen.com/jiacinto For DC related travel advice, please visit that link.

    by jiacinto on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 05:44:33 PM PST

  •  I'm late to the game here, but (0+ / 0-)

    you proclaiming this blog as a blog with the goal of electing democrats to office is looking fraudulent more and more.  I may have missed some of your more positive posts about democrats, but mostly all I see from you here are posts that insult, tear down, or criticize democrats.  I very rarely have seen positive diaries or posts in that regard.  This is a little harsh, and to me even knee jerk, blurting out your gut level feeling without thinking.  Who else is being called out for that?

    "The Future's So Bright, I Gotta Wear Shades."--Pat MacDonald

    by hopscotch1997 on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 06:01:13 PM PST

  •  Kos made me laugh (0+ / 0-)

    Beating up on Joe Biden doesn't bother me much. There are times I like him. I think the circular firing squad is stupid in most cases. This isn't one of them.

    A number of other people covered why it was stupid and could be construed as racist. I agree on both counts.

    Biden should have been prepared for this question. I'm not asking for a focus group, but, please! Why are you running for president, what is your position on Iraq, what do you think of your competition?

    For Pete's sake; it's a job interview. Prepare for it.

  •  Hypocrites. (0+ / 0-)

      Biden said something bigoted, made worse by his previous slave state comments.  It seems like a trend to me.  If a Republican had said these things we would be all over him.  I still don't understand why Biden "gets the benefit of the doubt" or "gets a pass."  Why?  If he has such a bad case of foot in mouth disease then he is a liability for Democrats everywhere.  Why should we support that?  We owe Biden  nothing.

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