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My ex-wife, Doris Tennant-Moore, just returned from her second visit to Guantanamo, where she is representing Abdul Aziz Naji.  To all appearances, he is one of the unluckiest of the unlucky, in contrast to his characterization by our government.  It seems he was arbitrarily captured on the basis either of association with the wrong people or of being turned in for bounty.  He claims never to have committed any kind of violence against any US citizen.  I am writing this diary to inform, but also in hopes of attracting some emotional and financial support for Doris’ principled commitment to do all she can to represent one detainee and to fight our country's illegal and immoral conduct at Guantanamo.

Although she was already working absurd hours just to support herself, Doris felt compelled to do more than watch as our government engaged in torture and the institutional undermining of international law.  She is now spending up to half her time doing what she can on this case and working to educate people about US involvement with arbitrary imprisonment, torture, and violation of long-established tenets of western jurisprudence.

This article from the Newton Tab, written after her second interview with her client, is an informative and sad account of Doris’ work and insights.  The entire article is worth a read.

This letter was sent out by Doris and her partner following the first visit with Abdul Aziz Naji.

May 4, 2007

Dear Friends and Colleagues,

We are writing to give you an update on our Guantanamo client, Abdul Aziz Naji, who turns 32 years old today.  We met him in early February in the prison at Guantanamo.  We found him to be a charming young man, shy but eager to speak with us.  We had planned to begin our meeting with very general conversation to try to put him at ease, but he didn’t want to waste a moment. He wanted to tell us the story of how he had gotten to Guantanamo, and he encouraged us to ask him questions.  Over and over he expressed his gratitude that we were there to help him.  He has a 6th grade education and apologized for not being able to write well, but he assured us that he could read our translated letters. He badly wanted to know what was happening in the world, but we could not tell him because we are prevented by the US government from discussing any news with him that is not directly related to his case.  He spoke for some time about how difficult it was not to see the sun or trees or other people. He described his needs for medical attention, which were not being met.  He told us that God would enable him to get out of prison some day.

Abdul Aziz Naji’s story is this:  After working with his father as an ironworker and then serving in the Algeria military, he went to Kashmir to work for a social service organization, delivering humanitarian aid to impoverished Muslims in that area. (The concept of community in Islam, as we understand it, includes the provision of support or charity—zakat—for those in need, which could be a monetary contribution, disaster relief, or other social service work.)  Shortly after arriving, he stepped on a landmine (in a country laced with them) and lost his leg, going to a hospital in Pakistan for treatment and rehabilitation. About a year later, when he was well enough to move about on his own, he visited the home of local man. He and that man were arrested. It’s not clear to us why this occurred – perhaps the man he was visiting was under suspicion, or perhaps the men were turned in by neighbors, like many men in Pakistan and Afghanistan, in return for the generous bounties that the US government was offering. Although the Pakistani police interrogated our client and found no reason to hold him, indicating he was free to go, some Americans who were present at his interrogation indicated that they wanted him. He was taken first to the US prison in Bagram, Afghanistan and then to Guantanamo. Though initially he was badly beaten and his prosthetic leg was taken away for several months, with a promise of return if he "confessed," he has not been interrogated for a long time, which indicates the government does not consider him to have any intelligence value.  

Many of the men held at Guantanamo have been living in conditions that permitted them some interaction with other prisoners, occasional exercise and exposure to sunlight, and meals and religious worship within sight and hearing of other prisoners.  During the past few months, however, most of the men—including our client—have been transferred into a newly built maximum security facility where each man is kept in solitary confinement, with no windows, little or no exposure to sunlight or fresh air, little or no exercise (when offered, it’s frequently at 2:00 am), and no ability to see or hear others during meals or prayer. Although our client seemed to be holding up fairly well, many of the men have deteriorated terribly since their transfer into this long-term solitary confinement. They have become unable to work with their lawyers due to paranoia or extreme withdrawal, or they have become psychotic.  We have requested government approval for a second visit with our client in late May, but as of this writing, the government has stated its intention to begin severely restricting attorney visits. Apparently, the level of isolation and hopelessness faced by these men is not yet satisfactory to the government.

We recently received a letter from Abdul Aziz’s parents in Algeria, in quick response to our having written them.  It was filled with expressions of thanks and hope for the safe return of their son: "We thank you profoundly for the legal efforts you have undertaken on behalf of our son, who has not given us any news for nearly five years. We are very worried because before we didn’t know the circumstances or the place of his detention...we are indeed grateful for your efforts and kindness in going to visit gave our family a new hope..."  We plan to arrange a conference call with his parents and a translator very soon.  

We have filed Freedom of Information requests with the Department of Defense and various other government agencies, which, we were recently informed, will probably not be acted on for years.  We have submitted information to the Department of Defense in support of our client for purposes of the government’s annual "review" of the prisoners to determine if they are still "enemy combatants." We are under no illusion that our submission will make any difference, and of course we’ve heard nothing back on this.  We’ve written to the US State Department requesting a meeting to discuss what options our client has, if released from Guantanamo, to be settled safely in another country. Receipt of our letter was acknowledged, but we have not been granted a meeting.  

Along with many of the other attorneys, we’ve filed motions with the federal district court in Washington, DC, requesting the government provide us with information regarding the grounds on which our client is being held.  The government opposed the motion and now seeks to dismiss all of the Guantanamo cases. We have opposed the government’s motion to dismiss, and are filing a new petition under a very unfavorable law that is the only venue we now have—the Detainee Treatment Act, by which Congress in late 2005 took away the Guantanamo prisoners’ habeas corpus right under the US Constitution to challenge their detention—a right that in 2004 was upheld by the US Supreme Court. As we write this, not one Guantanamo prisoner has had an impartial hearing before a neutral decision maker to determine if there is a basis for his detention.

The Supreme Court, now of a different composition, recently stated that it might consider the Guantanamo prisoners’ cases at some point in the future, but not until they subjected themselves to proceedings created by the Detainee Treatment Act, which was further fortified by the Military Commissions Act, passed by Congress last fall.  It is a disturbing ruling because the government says the purpose of these proceedings is not to determine if a prisoner is actually an ''enemy combatant,'' but rather to determine if the military followed its own rules in applying the ''enemy combatant'' label. For that reason, Guantanamo prisoners will have no chance to produce evidence of their innocence that the military did not consider, or to challenge the use of evidence obtained through torture. Worse yet, these procedures will be held before the same appeals court that recently found the prisoners have no rights at all.  

Last week we were part of a large group of Guantanamo lawyers who met on Capitol Hill with Senators and Congressional Representatives to discuss the importance of passing new legislation to restore habeas corpus rights to the prisoners. It looks like the restoration of this right, a core principle of our nation, will be a very close vote in a Congress where both parties remain afraid of being thought soft on terrorism. Contacting your Senators and Representative to request their vote for habeas corpus restoration will help to ensure that this most important avenue of relief from arbitrary detention is preserved here—and to show the world that our embrace of justice and responsible governance prescribes how captured members of our own military and diplomatic personnel should be treated.  

As dismal as this report is, we do have hope that one day Guantanamo will be closed and that our government will abide by the rule of law.  We are deeply grateful for your interest and your generosity. There’s no way we could be doing this without the wonderful support of people like you. It makes such a difference.

Warm regards,

Ellen Lubell    Doris Tennant

Here is Doris standing up for reality on New England Cable News.  Scroll to page 3 to find the video.

Doris downplays the financial and emotional price she has paid for doing this work.  She feels any price she pays is hardly worth mentioning in comparison with the suffering of the detainees.  But in speaking on her behalf, I can be more forthcoming.  She has been battling depression and financial hardship since her first trip to Guantanamo.  I know many good-hearted citizens here experience trauma and despair just from hearing reports of the suffering created by our government, in our name.  Imagine how much greater the challenge both of becoming personally acquainted with an apparently innocent detainee and of taking on the enormous task of fighting for him against the illegal and unprincipled machinations of the US government in Guantanamo.

Through our daughter, I have been encouraging Doris to join dailyKos.  I feel certain she would find emotional support here, and Kossacks put a high premium on getting information straight from the horse's mouth.  But Doris is not web literate, and she is so busy with her practice that she is not likely to make it here soon.  Therefore, with her permission I have taken it upon myself to introduce this community to her work.  I hope we can find a way to express the gratitude owed her by all of us who are appalled by the crimes being committed in our names.

If you are interested in contributing, emotionally, factually, or monetarily, please got to her website:

Doris has agreed to allow me to publish this report of her work.  She tells me she simply doesn't have time to be here to answer comments, but she will read the comments.  I'll hang around a bit, but I'm not the expert.  You now know about as much as I do.

Update II:  Contributions, the real story
Okay, all you beautiful people, I finally spoke with Doris and got straight on contributions.  If you send a check written out to Tennant Lubell Detainee Fund, it will be placed in a regulated client trust account.  The donation is not tax deductible.  The address can be found at the website.  They draw down funds from this account as they incur expenses.  (They are not charging anything for their time.)  They chose not to solicit funds on their web page.  After some investigation, they chose not to use paypal, etc. for reasons Doris doesn't remember, perhaps some issue of administrative time.  My apologies for taking so long for getting this clear.  Chalk it up to communication issues between ex-spouses.  I am deeply moved to be a part of this community.  Since I came in a few months ago, my hopes have brightened considerably.  Thank you and blessings.

Originally posted to geomoo on Tue Jun 12, 2007 at 07:01 PM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

  •  In lieu of mojo, (231+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Lupin, JekyllnHyde, Alumbrados, northsylvania, CarolDuhart, pb, ogre, AlanF, Downriver Gal, TaraIst, thebes, Powered Grace, paradocs, tiponeill, Debby, Shockwave, Psyche, wu ming, Byron from Denver, martianchronic, jrod, Midwest Meg, jeremybloom, LesIsMore, x, fightcentristbias, RFK Lives, musicsleuth, HL Mungo, exNYinTX, rasbobbo, opinionated, joynow, kwinz, conchita, howd, Wee Mama, megs, whenwego, OCD, shock, scamp, Porfiry, vmibran, JJG Miami Shores, roses, javelina, Ignacio Magaloni, nargel, Mber, PeteZerria, VA Gal, thingamabob, rioduran, enough already, bewert, malcolm, webweaver, normal family, BurnetO, oldjohnbrown, jlynne, MTgirl, elmo, YellowDogBlue, grayslady, churchylafemme, flatford39, Sychotic1, mcfly, HollywoodOz, raster44, Eddie Haskell, lcrp, WisVoter, Thestral, djpat, vacantlook, thereisnospoon, murrayewv, nailbender, Fabian, Leslie H, Bluesee, marina, DianeNYS, bellevie, Elise, LakeSuperior, LarisaW, political girl, Roadbed Guy, mjd in florida, Lying eyes, PBen, sap, shishani, Simplify, ZappoDave, truong son traveler, Valtin, karpinsky, kaye, mmcole, volballplr, CarolynC967, spectre7, jimreyn, GreyHawk, ladybug53, Prison4Bushco, illyia, hgunited, Shotput8, cerulean, Lisa Lockwood, Spathiphyllum, Tigana, Paper Cup, noweasels, lcork, AceDeuceLady, Coherent Viewpoint, kovie, Shirley P, potownman, BachFan, MissInformation, Compound F, brownsox, Keone Michaels, emeraldmaiden, stonemason, Prognosticator, deha, Albatross, goodasgold, TexasIPLaw, MJ via Chicago, vome minnesota, StrayCat, Lashe, M Loutre, Skeptical Spectacle, gatorcog, FireCrow, NearlyNormal, BalkanID, CTLiberal, bleeding heart, gabriella, feduphoosier, ilyana, sozzy, doingbusinessas, Clive all hat no horse Rodeo, va dare, fiddlingnero, means are the ends, MarketTrustee, kurt, chapel hill guy, MadMs, Statusquomustgo, lifexpert, Temmoku, a a, AntKat, BentLiberal, DBunn, eastmt, One Pissed Off Liberal, old wobbly, drational, Noor B, Iowa Boy, dotdot, marykk, YoyogiBear, pfiore8, dotsright, donnamarie, Russ Jarmusch, drmah, kmiddle, ninkasi23, godislove, Dartagnan, jetskreemr, yoduuuh do or do not, FishOutofWater, Duccio, kath25, flumptytail, operculum, lurks a lot, todd in salt lake, vbdietz, The Angry Rakkasan, sabershadow, jhop7, onlyscarsremain, CheckM8 Groundling, OkayFine, Neon Mama, LAMaestra, JDWolverton, sima, Justus, kimoconnor, oolali, Blackacre, Chacounne, wayoutinthestix, scooter in brooklyn, Rippen Kitten, Involuntary Exile, Fiona West, Sigmarlin, bricoleur, Akonitum, Residentcynic, Cassandra Waites, Runs With Scissors, MsWings, ClapClapSnap, dnA, American Phoenix, Shaviv, meldroc, Just the facts

    please send Doris some appreciation and, if so moved, cold hard cash.

    If it's our freedom they hate, they must love Bush's response to the WTC attacks.

    by geomoo on Tue Jun 12, 2007 at 07:00:39 PM PDT

    •  That sums it up perfectly. n/t (13+ / 0-)

      If it's our freedom they hate, they must love Bush's response to the WTC attacks.

      by geomoo on Tue Jun 12, 2007 at 07:16:38 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Please tell your wife (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        WisVoter, Fiona West

        That she is a hero. Tell her to take good care of herself, because the terror the government imposes upon its torture victims is transferred to their helpers, who are traumatized vicariously by the terrible stories they hear, by the living presence of these suffering human beings, and by the fact that even their attorneys and doctors are often almost powerless to help them.

        I have said all along that the attorneys working with the "enemy combatant" prisoners are selfless and amazing.

        Geomoo, does you wife belong to any organizations, like Human Rights First (formerly known as "Lawyers Committee for Human Rights). Working with and through such organization brings a feeling of greater power, and access to more support and helps when morale falls low.

        All the best to her and her associates, and to all the spouses, friends and family who also provide support for these special people.

        •  We're really not that connected (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          Thanks for the words of understanding.  The trauma is transferred vicariously, and the combination of feeling responsible while feeling helpless is emotionally tough.  She is my ex-wife, and we don't communicate much.  I know about what she is doing through our daughters.  I saw an opportunity to help through dKos and I wrote this diary for her, but even more for the cause.  I married her largely because of her fearless commitment to social justice, and I have never lost respect for her integrity in this arena.  I do think she is involved with Human Rights First.  Also, she was recently invited to attend an Amnesty International dinner.  I just think she is too obsessed with stopping this horror show that she doesn't take much in, and she focuses only minimally on fund-raising.  I hope this diary and the inspiring response to it by kossacks will help both those issues.

          If it's our freedom they hate, they must love Bush's response to the WTC attacks.

          by geomoo on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 11:55:32 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  If they didn't hate America when they went in, (16+ / 0-)

    they will when they come out.

    GITMO: The Terrorist Factory

  •  Thanks geomoo... (12+ / 0-)

    This is great work Doris is doing. I'm not surprised it's taking its toll on her.

    Highly Recommended...and I hope things improve soon.

  •  Do Doris a favor and take her address off of (25+ / 0-)

    the diary - just to keep her safe from the weirdos.

    What a story.  I appreciate her work on behalf of humanity.  I wish my government did too.  Sigh.

  •  Thanks for the passion Doris (11+ / 0-)

    Watched the video clip and Doris really did a terrific job. For those going over to watch the video, you have to scroll to page 3 of the list of video clips.

  •  I just can't stand to read more of these (16+ / 0-)

    stories of people whose lives we are destroying for no good reason.

    We HAVE TO HAVE A DEM PRESIDENT IN 2008 to undo all this damage, as much as is possible.

    •  He might SEEM innocent... (4+ / 0-)

      but I bet if we keep torturing him long enough, we could get him to confess to anything!

      It's like the witch trials all over again...
      Confess to being a terrorist or we'll torture you until you either
      A: confess or
      B: die, at which point we'll entertain the possibility you may have been innocent all along...
      It's crazy how much our morals changed after 9/11...

      •  I confess! I confess! (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        mmacdDE, Prognosticator

        I keel Papa Doc with my Voodoo, please don't hit me again!

        Oops! Wrong confession.

        You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you mad. -Aldous Huxley

        by Dave925 on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 03:42:25 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  well.... (0+ / 0-)
        I wouldn't heap that much on the innocence thing.

        The guy does have rights regardless of his history, and those rights should be respected regardless.

        Having said that, his story, as told, leaves a few question marks in my eyes. Kashmir is part of India, and the only thing Pakistan does there is support a shady and brutal guerilla war against India. Terrorism, if you want to call it that.

        Now we have an Algerian Islamic man who goes to Kashmir for "charity work", gets badly injured and then goes or is brought, of all places, to Pakistan for treatment ?

        Well, maybe. Or maybe not.

        •  He would be in danger if returned to Algeria (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          DSPS owl

          for his activities there, so, as you say, he may not be so innocent in the cosmic sense.  But these speculations raise even more questions about why our government is spending our tax dollars detaining and abusing this man, who was probably never a threat to us.  He probably just had enemies who turned him in for cash.  Anti-terrorism through cash bounty--the kind of lazy approach we have come to expect from the cynics running our government.  As a result, we are free to speculate about this man, but no one really knows whether he was a threat.  Even right wing "patriots" should be concerned about the woeful inadequacy of this approach to making our country safe.

          The over-riding issue here, of course, is the blatant disregard for US and international law that Guantanamo represents.  

          If it's our freedom they hate, they must love Bush's response to the WTC attacks.

          by geomoo on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 02:28:45 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Please tell Doris (29+ / 0-)

    ... that her work is of utmost importance. She is an American hero. Thanks for this (almost) direct report. Keep posting.

    Reading the story of Abdul Aziz Naji, I again get the feeling that the purpose behind keeping people like him in Guantanamo is to avoid revealing that there really is no purpose behind keeping people like him in Gauntanamo.

    Move over, Heller, Orwell, and Kafka. You can't write fiction as messed up as this true story.

  •  solitary confinement for everyone?!? (19+ / 0-)

    We are just back from a visit to Alcatraz, where they let you go into one of the isolation cells and close your eyes. Not even a shadow of a trace of what it must mean to endure that day after day --- totally inhuman to do this to anyone.

  •  This needs to make the recommended list! (14+ / 0-)

    How much I admire the work Doris is doing! and thank you for introducing her to the Kos community!

    I am sending a few bucks her way, wish I could afford more!, Tell her to keep the faith and keep fighting! There are more us of out here than she knows.

    Without heroes like her, we will not beat these un-American bastards!

    Wanted: A Dem who can win PA-18 in 2008!

    by AntKat on Tue Jun 12, 2007 at 07:38:05 PM PDT

  •  I have recommended it (19+ / 0-)

    I will try to get some funds off to Doris, but I am a lawyer in NY and if she needs some legal research and writing done, I would be glad to help. The issues are all federal, so where we practice shouldn't be a problem.

    I did criminal defense for over 2 decades, but I had to get out because it was ruining my health. But I do have some expertise as an appellate lawyer, so if she needs briefs, etc., my email is in my profile.

    Doris, what you are doing is incredibly hard and way beyond the pale.  I am sure it is terribly depressing.  Take some comfort in your client's steadfast faith in God amd rather amazing good humor.  And use me, if you need.  I'm pretty damn good at what I do.

    We do not rent rooms to Republicans.

    by Mary Julia on Tue Jun 12, 2007 at 07:48:52 PM PDT

    •  Many, many thanks for the generosity (4+ / 0-)

      I'll be sure Doris doesn't miss this comment and your offer.  I can imagine criminal defense being quite unhealthy.  I hope your health is back strong.  Doris has been focusing on mediation, not taking cases unless both sides accept a non-adversarial approach.  I'm sure you accomplished some worthwhile things for us citizens during your 20 years.

      If it's our freedom they hate, they must love Bush's response to the WTC attacks.

      by geomoo on Tue Jun 12, 2007 at 07:56:35 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I now work part-time (11+ / 0-)

        and am in a bit of a lull, so I would be happy to take some of the load off a small firm.

        As for worthwhile things, I did, but hey, criminal defense can also be FUN.  Sex, drugs, rock-n-roll, doncha know.  I have always had good stories for cocktail parties, anyway.  But a lot of heartache, too. It wears you down.  So I have a lot of sympathy for Doris and her partner.

        My brother, who also did criminal defense until he went on the bench, says it takes a piece of your heart with certain cases, and after awhile, you have to stop.

        We do not rent rooms to Republicans.

        by Mary Julia on Tue Jun 12, 2007 at 08:06:15 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  How about a chipin Widget (10+ / 0-)

    Get her a Paypal account. Then go to chipin dot com and get a widget put up here in her diary. Nbier did this for pretty bird woman house, a woman's shelter on the Standing Rock Reservation. Check out the diary, it raised lots of money fast.

    That way you don't have to post her address so she can get all those threatening calls from random sociopaths and rogue CIA agents who don't like the idea of universal human rights.

  •  Every day Guantanamo stays open America's... (11+ / 0-)

    ...image gets notched down. The hole is deep by now, we need to stop digging.

    Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket

    Standing by for instructions to send $$$; an oasis of truth. -1.75 -7.23

    by Shockwave on Tue Jun 12, 2007 at 07:55:21 PM PDT

    •  Sent $20.01 check to... (5+ / 0-)


      Doris Teannant
      Tennant Lubell, LLC
      288 Walnut Street, Suite 500
      Newton, MA 02460

      Honored to be able to do it.

      Watched the video, impressive and empassioned defense of human rights.  

      We need to get Doris voice out.; an oasis of truth. -1.75 -7.23

      by Shockwave on Tue Jun 12, 2007 at 09:52:16 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I see you figured it out (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      Sorry, I missed your request for instructions the first time around.  Thanks so much for contributing.  I have been advised to add a way to contribute, but I haven't been able to set it up yet.

      I was also advised to remove Doris' address from the diary.  It's less glaring down here in the comments, but I would prefer to keep it a bit more hidden.

      Believe me, she can use the support.  For a long time, she felt she was accomplishing nothing.  It was very wearing.  These recent rulings have helped a lot.  And getting help from people like you will help her with one of her big worries in all of this.  Thank you, thank you.

      If it's our freedom they hate, they must love Bush's response to the WTC attacks.

      by geomoo on Tue Jun 12, 2007 at 10:05:08 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Thanks for this diary (11+ / 0-)

    And thanks to Doris.

    For those who didn't see it, I did a late-night diary last night on a former Nurmberg prosecutor from the US who has just spoken out on how unfair and appalling the Guantanamo trials are compared to Nuremberg.

    Allied Prosecutor: Guantanamo Violates Nuremberg Principles

    And tonight at Midnight Eastern/9:00pm pacific, I am posting part 2, with some unbelievable quotes from Tony Snow.

    Thanks again.

  •  Tags updated. (6+ / 0-)

    Bless you and your ex, great patriots, both.

    1-20-09 The Darkness Ends "Where cruelty exists, law does not." ~ Alberto Mora.

    by noweasels on Tue Jun 12, 2007 at 08:20:57 PM PDT

  •  Doris Tennant is a real hero (3+ / 0-)

    for standing on principles and putting herself at such financial and emotional risks.  It should not be our own government people with her stellar qualities should be fighting.  More power to her!
     Thank you for bringing us her story and continuing to shine light on the travesties going on at Guantanamo.  When we trample on helpless people in the unjust cause of "projecting power,"  we make a mockery of our flag, our Constitution, and all the people who work and fight everyday in good faith to make this land a decent place.

    Imagine all the people...

    by jhop7 on Tue Jun 12, 2007 at 08:33:31 PM PDT

  •  you are right. I become sick and disgusted. (4+ / 0-)

    It's a nightmare from which people like Abdul cannot awaken, all in support of a paranoid ideology.  I can see why Doris (and perhaps Ellen) would have some trouble dealing emothionally with such a nightmare situation.  And I presume the government is listening in to their conversations.

    Thank you for this post.  It deserves wide dissemination.  I'll have to look at my finances, but I hope to give them even a little $upport.  

    I wonder if there are any other US organizations that might be able to provide them with support for their work.


    Never separate the life you live from the words you speak. -- Paul Wellstone

    by vome minnesota on Tue Jun 12, 2007 at 08:49:20 PM PDT

  •  inFUCKINGfuriating (3+ / 0-)

     The title is the word to describe our policies regarding prisoners. Can anyone at all, ever, say "Winning the hearts and minds ..." without people laughing?

    I'm looking at the site ... no donation link???

    "Soon we must all face the choice between what is right and what is easy." - Albus Dumbledore

    by Iowa Boy on Tue Jun 12, 2007 at 08:51:09 PM PDT

    •  I'm working on it (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Iowa Boy

      but Doris isn't available right now, and I couldn't set it up without some personal info from her.  I hope to add it.  Meanwhile, you can go through the website.

      If it's our freedom they hate, they must love Bush's response to the WTC attacks.

      by geomoo on Tue Jun 12, 2007 at 08:54:50 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I'd be more compelled to help if more lawyers (0+ / 0-)

    were willing to donate their time to defend US Soldiers like Mario Lozanowho are on political showtrials in foreign countries like Italy.  Anyone... anyone? Didn't think so....

    From a reader below:

    I do have some fears about publicizing the case, lest it lead to worse treatment for him.

    Not true, I have worked in a detention facility... nobody cares about your publicity.  Most of the guards will be happy of they get out of there without a detainee shanking them with a pen they stole from the red cross or their lawyer.  There is so much post-Abu micromanagement that it would be very hard to abuse anyone.

    I would warn you not to buy into the sob stories.  EVERYONE is innocent in prison.  In fact I met more innocent people in my 10 months watching insurgents than at a disney convention.  Even guys caught with an RPG (after one was fired at an American Convoy) and a IED detonator in his pocket AND explosive residue on his hands/clothes was just walking down the street when he saw his buddy drop his RPG as he was running down the street(I'm not kidding).  So this detainee wanted to be a nice guy and picked it up for his buddy.  Just as he did the Americans swooped in and picked it him up.  He was totally baffled as to why he was there.

    You can all bemoan this as evidence of how evil the USofA is... but we have treated our prisoners better than any other military/adversary we have fought against in the last century and a half has treated ours.  Do we make mistakes, YES.  Have there been abuses, yes.  But the alternative of dealing with this new threat with a US judicial system is equally bad.  The really hard core Jihadis will never be rehabilitated and if released will just attack us again.  somehow we need to find a nice balance (and giving them rights of a US citizen is not it).

    All in all, I think most of the ones I talked to felt pretty lucky they were in OUR prison.  They KNOW what a prison is like under Talaban/Iraqi laws.  They may not have liked it there, but they knew it could be much, much worse.  They got 3 meals a day (Plus bedtime snack), medical care, and their families got paid until they were convicted.  Red cross visited 4 times in 8 months, biggest complaint of detainees was they were worried we were going to turn the prison over to the Iraqis.

    "Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum."- Vegetius

    by Captain Infidel on Tue Jun 12, 2007 at 09:14:37 PM PDT

    •  His guilt or innocence is irrelevant (23+ / 0-)

      The issue is the rule of law.  Perhaps you are right that the US justice system is inadequate to this task of trying terrorists captured abroad (I disagree), perhaps you are right that the well-deserved publicity has made abuse much less likely (that wasn't bitterness I heard, was it?)  Even so, neither you, nor I, nor the US government knows which of the detainees is innocent or which is guilty.  Sure, every detainee claims to be innocent.  And our government claims that every detainee is the worst of the worst.  "He said, she said" is not going to be all that effective in finding and neutralizing real threats to our country.  What is needed is a procedure which stands some chance of finding out who is a threat and who isn't.  That's why we present evidence--to find out the truth.  Torture isn't the answer, and neither are the Military Commissions.

      You sound like the guy who loves to brag about the US system of justice, and how much better that makes us than the rest of the world.  Well, you used to right, before the present US government threw out several foundations of that system of justice.  If we are so ready to throw out what makes our Republic great, what the hell are we fighting for then?

      Your fantasy of prisoners feeling appreciative while wasting their lives away in solitary confinement hardly merits a response.  Dream on.

      If it's our freedom they hate, they must love Bush's response to the WTC attacks.

      by geomoo on Tue Jun 12, 2007 at 10:30:53 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  EXCUSE ME ???????? (23+ / 0-)

      I can tell you from personal experience that my husband was NEVER subjected to sensory deprivation for months on end ... The Vietnamese NEVER, to my knowledge, kidnapped children and tortured them to find out info about their father.

      These people are not "other", they are part of the human family. NO ONE deserves to be tortured.

      Torture is ALWAYS wrong, no matter who is doing it to whom.
      For Dan,

    •  While it's terrible that justice (7+ / 0-)

      may not be blind and fair in Italy, there's not a whole lot we can do about that. Furthermore, I hate to sound callous, but Italy's justice system is not nearly as important to me as America's. What would you suggest in the case of Italy, regime change?

      And I think it's a bad idea to pat ourselves on the back that our prisons are slightly more humane than that of the Taliban. If we're so much better than them, we ought to hold ourselves to a completely different level of behavior. Military detention centers are no place for an ethical limbo competition.

      If I want your pity I'll take it from you by force.

      by Alfred E Qaeda on Tue Jun 12, 2007 at 11:03:16 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Pathetic that it needed to be said (0+ / 0-)

        But since it had to be, thanks for the great wording:

        Military detention centers are no place for an ethical limbo competition.

        If it's our freedom they hate, they must love Bush's response to the WTC attacks.

        by geomoo on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 11:59:27 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Captain Infidel (18+ / 0-)

      We tried the Nazi leaders who had ravaged an entire continent and destroyed millions deliberately, who had aided and abetted other destructive nations.  We tried some of the Japanese leaders too, and would have tried Mussolini if he hadn't already been assassinated and overthrown by the end of the war. These leaders even in defeat, had people who would/could do their bidding and far more resources to cause trouble. Nobody really thought these men were innocent, and there was at least ample evidence that they did what was claimed to be done. But these men had their day in course-in Germany no less. And these men created far more grief in American households than a dozen 911's combined.

      But detainees with no army or even a single country are too fearsome to try in American or even International courts for fear that somehow-what? That millions would invade America? That Bin Laden would pay them a personal visit?

      A Crushie for Democracy

      by CarolDuhart on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 12:42:51 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Agreed - very well said and (3+ / 0-)

        look for my diary on this subject tomorrow night at 9:00pm Pacific Time.

      •  I agree. (0+ / 0-)

        Our police and our justice system were quite cabable of finding the terrorist Tim McVey and bringing him to justice.  And as far as I know, he was read his rights, he a had a lawyer and the evidence against him was presented at a public trial.  Amazing, huh?  All those inconvenient, nitpicky legal things like Miranda, and lawyers and search warrants and juries, and they still got the bastard.  Who'd have ever thought it could work?

        "Silflay hraka u embleer rah!" --Bigwig

        by Reepicheep on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 08:36:46 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Yea... they got him AFTER he killed how many? (0+ / 0-)

          that is the problem.  unless you can unravel the network and ID them BEFORE they strike... you have a lot of dead people on your hands.  Plus McVeigh was an American Citizen and was entitled to the protections and rights of our justice system.  Foreign terrorists who are not citizens should be held and tried by the military.  I’m not saying Bush’s policy of "constitutional flexibility" is right... I’m just saying these terrorists are going to laugh at us all the way to their next rendezvous with martyrdom.    I don’t know which ones are innocent or guilty, or the right way to do it... but there should be some way to figure that out relatively fairly without giving them the loopholes, rights and endless appeals of our justice system.

          My main points, which were missed, was that a. Lawyers are jumping up to help the "poor detainees" in Gitmo, but noone is defending soldiers "ProBono" when they are being railroaded.  They are forced to ask for donations to raise the money.  I think that sucks and shows priorities are screwed up.  B.  everyone in prison says they are innocent c. there is an incredible amount of micromanagement in detainee operations (the ones I saw and have talked to others at other places), so much so that guards actions are more scrutinized than detainee’s actions.  All the guards I saw didn’t want to abuse anyone, they weren’t bad people; they just wanted to live through the deployment to see their families.  No sarcasm there.  There were multiple incidences of detainees attempting to kill or attack guards and even one of our doctors (who was an extremely nice and caring guy by the way).  

          There is a huge side to this most of you will never see (and that is good).  I have a different view based on my experience, not on any red kool-aid.  

          "Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum."- Vegetius

          by Captain Infidel on Sat Jun 16, 2007 at 10:17:12 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  This quote shows the basic flaw in your attitude (0+ / 0-)

            This is my strongest response to you.  I tried to find it the other day without luck, but since you have come back I found it this time.  This quote from the Raw Story comes by way off a diary from mhanch:  

               The only prosecution you might get at Guantanamo is not going to be accepted by the rest of the world because it has all the appearances of a monkey trial. So if you've got the worst of the worst, it seems like you should try them, so you can punish them.

                  You know, in Alexandria, Virginia, where I was mayor and I represent, we had the guy that was alleged to be the 20th hijacker, Zacarias Moussaoui was his name. And he spouted all this kind of propaganda against the United States. For months, he went on and on and he said the worst stuff about the U.S. [Inaudible] Finally, he went through the trial and he'd sit there, and over time, though, as people came through and he saw the way the system of justice works, he started to quiet down. And when some of the families of the victims of 9/11 said he was not directly involved in the deaths of our loved ones, and so we don't think he should actually be given the death penalty, Moussaoui fell silent. And I'm told by his defense lawyer that he sits in his cell with his head between his legs because he doesn't know what to believe now. Going through that trial proved that the US does have principles, values, ideals, that there is a rule of law that applies. It's everything he was told was not the case. We have disproved that propaganda by putting him through a trial. It seems to me it might make some sense to take the worst of the worst, put them in a prison cell, let them sit in a court room, bring them down to the level of a common criminal, which they are, and try them. That's a lot better than putting them in a situation where they're going to be perceived as some kind of martyrs.

            In other words, if the United States stands for anything, it is for respect for the law and respect for the individual.  This respect is not something we can throw out the window because we are scared, or because something a bit new has come along, or because things seem difficult.  If there is no difference between us and those we fight, then as far as I can tell we are just in a barroom brawl which has nothing to do with principle or America as I know and love her.

            I hear you saying you have direct experience of some of the things we are talking about, and I'm trying to respect that experience.  You have widened my view a bit by telling of the "micromanagement" and threats to guards and doctors.  I still feel you are off in your basic outlook here.  First let me say that, being in the military is dangerous by its nature, and guarding criminals and terrorists is of course a dangerous business.  In spite of this, fundamental to our traditions and what we are proud of as Americans is that we handle these difficult tasks with respect for the law and deep respect for every individual.  This is a bedrock principle of modern western society in general and the US in particular.  Without this, I don't have any idea what the hell we are fighting for.  I don't see where there is any validity in complaining that guarding prisoners humanely is a dangerous business.  

            Your dismissive attitude toward the

            loopholes, rights and endless appeals of our justice system

            is the kind of shallow, self-serving, America-hating drivel on which the neo-cons are building their empire while dismantling the foundations of democracy built over centuries.  The same neo-cons like to call our system of justice the envy of the worldm when it suits their ends.  They then return to attacking the foundations of our democracy.  True patriots feel real pride towards our system of justice.  Please stop treating it like some kind of joke that you and your like can do with as you please.  It is deeply insulting to the United States.

            If it's our freedom they hate, they must love Bush's response to the WTC attacks.

            by geomoo on Sat Jun 16, 2007 at 01:17:21 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  wishful thinking about Zacarias Moussaoui... (0+ / 0-)

              True patriots feel real pride towards our system of justice.  Please stop treating it like some kind of joke that you and your like can do with as you please.  It is deeply insulting to the United States.

              Again, those "rights" are those given to us by our citizenship.  Those "rights" were fought for and earned with the blood our forefathers.  It was designed to protect us, as US citizens, from conviction of crimes we did not commit NOT to protect those caught attacking us.  It was built on the premise that it was better to let a few guilty people go free than to have one innocent person convicted.  It is a good system most of the time but it was designed to do the most good most of the time in most situations.  But it is not suited for prosecution of internation terrorism or unlawful combatants captured on the battlefield. There are times when evil people are able to take advantage of the court system here (OJ), we accept that because the alternative is worse.  Gitmo/GWOT this is not the case.  They are not US citizens and are not entitled to the rights our judicial system offers.  Even under the Geneva Convention we are not required to give them access to our federal court system.  We can hold them as long as there are hostilities... without a trial.  The Nazi war criminals were not tried in US Courts.  I'm not advocating we just let them rot or hang 'em high... they need due process, but there are other ways to give that to them that won't be such a specticle.

              "Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum."- Vegetius

              by Captain Infidel on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 12:14:20 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Thinking of the "other" as less than human (0+ / 0-)

                I'm not advocating we just let them rot or hang 'em high... they need due process, but there are other ways to give that to them that won't be such a specticle.

                This would be enough for me if it didn't sound like more of an afterthought than the only part of your argument which makes the rest palatable.  You may disagree with me on this, but in my eyes you shouldn't have to be a US citizen to enjoy civil rights.  I take our system of justice as a standard which all countries should try to emulate, not a special system only for Americans because they are special.  I would ask you to take a look at the ease with which you classify people.  Sure, I think your position would make perfect sense if we had a magical way of telling the criminals from the people just living their lives.  And some of these people are called criminals just because they were fighting for their country, in their country, against a foreign power.  Do you feel like a criminal?  I hope not.

                The main point is that there is no magic way, and just because we are Americans and we had a terrorist attack on 9/11, that doesn't give us even close to the right to pluck people out of their own countries and casually declare them the "worst of the worst" without supporting those claims.  Most of the most terrible periods of history have been fueled by people easily classifying people as "other," then dismissing them as less than human.  Yes, they deserve meaningful due process, and they are not receiving it.  This is a problem for our country and the world even if they are all vampires from transylvania.

                It stuns me that people have become so self-centered that they have no qualms in tossing aside centuries of national and international legal precedent on the grounds that we, and the times we live in, are so very, very special.  Yes, I do find this offensive.  I don't think it's enough to dismiss concerns with what is happening with a simple, "they need due process."  Where is the gdamn due process?

                If it's our freedom they hate, they must love Bush's response to the WTC attacks.

                by geomoo on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 04:49:11 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

    •  Just because it's not as bad as could be, (2+ / 0-)

      doesn't mean it isn't bad. Is that the standard for the US justice system, that it's not as bad as in the Middle East?

      The point is due process, the very foundation of any country that places such apparent importance on concepts such as "freedom" and "liberty." If the evidence against these detainees is as clear-cut as you imply, why are they allowed to be kept in limbo for years and years without any charges or any semblance of fairness?

      Also, you may have missed the part where dozens of these detainees have already been cleared of all charges. They're still in Gitmo, though, because no country will take them in.

      "...and it's here the lonely say that the heart has got to open in a fundamental way." --Leonard Cohen, "Democracy"

      by maralenenok on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 08:16:15 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Captain Infidel (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      The United States justice system (WITH lawyers and all that due process) handles thousands of really bad people everyday, including the federal courts.  The terrorists who bombed the WTC in 1993 were tried in FEDERAL COURT, with sentences in excess of 200 years. As for you being worried about getting shanked with a pen from the Red Cross, I know gang members now in federal prisons (you know, after they had TRIALS) who would do a lot more to you than that, and be a whole lot smarter about it.

      As Colin Powell said, shut it down.  Transfer everyone either to the US Courts or even courts-martial. Give them some due process.

      Yeah, I bet the biggest fear of the prisoners was that you would return the prison to the Iraqis. Nice to know that you are considered more "humanitarian" than they are, huh?  Tell you what, Captain - I will incarcerate you in my basement for some "offense".  I will give you three meals a day, even a bedtime snack.  I'll throw in free medical care. I'll even pay your family while you are gone.

      Gonna take me up on it? Huh? I didn't think so... BTW, rent the movie "Judgment at Nuremberg". After WWII, this is how we dealt with war criminals who had murdered MILLIONS of people. They had lawyers.  They had due process. I konw you are young, but try to remember what the USA USED to be known for in its treatment of the enemy. We were BETTER than the enemy, for the most part.

      Nobody thinks that anymore, do they?

      We do not rent rooms to Republicans.

      by Mary Julia on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 11:15:34 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Powell is a smart guy (0+ / 0-)

        As Colin Powell said, shut it down.  Transfer everyone either to the US Courts or even courts-martial. Give them some due process.

        courts martial I would agree with.  I have no problem with that.  there needs to be a balance between the endless appeals and loopholes of our justice system and the endless limbo we have now.

        We were BETTER than the enemy, for the most part.

        We still are... please don't forget that.


        "Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum."- Vegetius

        by Captain Infidel on Sat Jun 16, 2007 at 10:30:42 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  "You can all bemoan this as evidence of how evil (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Floja Roja, maralenenok, geomoo

      the USA is".    That is your straw man.

      This community is about decency and integrity and standing up for human rights and fairness.

      You can mock, you can be sarcastic and clever and insult the people working here to get some shreds of self respect back for America.

      BTW, it isn't the military not even McCain or Powell who are cheering on torture, solitary confinement and indefinite detentions without charges.

      The entire fiasco of Gitmo was designed as a despicable PR stunt so Bush could show he had captured several hundred "terrarists".

      After 5 years we have what? about 4 trials going on?

      There have been more than 300 released, nearly 1/2 because there was absolutely nothing in common with the unfortunates picked up by bounty hunters and any sort of attack. The Army pushed this release program because the cases were ridiculous and all this after 5 years of limbo.

       This spring, 14 "High value detainees" were ADDED to Gitmo to make it respectable and credible.

      What does that mean...the remainder of 400 of prisoners are NOT high value,or never were?

      If "high value prisoners" were being kept elsewhere there was no need of Gitmo...except as the PR propaganda tool for the nightly network news shows.
        The breakdown and belittling of legal norms,the discarding of hundreds of years of a fair and advanced justice system was a terrible price to pay for Bush photo ops.

      And I resent the statement YOU made that the USA is evil. It is the Bush/Cheney/corporations without a soul that have trashed America. They, not America are truly evil.

        Congratulations for being in their service and their apologist. We need heroes now, not tools for the thieves and murderers. If you can't see what these people do, and are clueless about Geneva Conventions, you are a poor excuse for a US serviceman or woman.

        It will make matters worse if you can't tell the difference between just and unjust treatment, between legal and illegal orders.

      "America doesn't want to commit to firm goals" German Environmental Minister,G8

      by Pete Rock on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 11:37:29 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  whatever.... (0+ / 0-)

        I am not a fan of {edited to remove names to remain legal} and their conduct of this war or their policy of "constitutional flexibility".

        I ‘m no one’s tool either.  Before you go and accuse me of now knowing the Geneva Convention, maybe you should read it yourself.  Come back to me with a few things like:
        a. how long a nation can hold those combatants of another nation captured in a war?
        b. the difference between a prisoner of war, a detained personnel, a mercenary, and a spy/saboteur?
        c. The criteria to be a "lawful" combatant and qualify for protected status under the Geneva Convention.

        But of course none of this changes the fact that even if you are not a ‘lawful combatant’ you must have a hearing in some reasonable manner to first say "yea this guy is an unlawful combatant" and then a tribunal to say "yea, he is guilty".  In Iraq, this is being done slowly, but it is being done.  The detainees are tried in Iraqi courts and if convicted are transferred to Iraqi penal system (where we are no longer responsible for them).  If you read my other comments, I think there needs to be a way to do get reasonable due process for those in gitmo, I just don’t think it should be our judicial system.  Military tribunals, sure; terrorism tribunal of civilian judges, ok... just do it without letting them have the endless appeals and loopholes of our courts and  where unlimited discovery may disclose classified information... and do it fast so we can put Gitmo behind us and focus on the bigger problems ahead.  (Like how we are going to disengage from Iraq as quickly as possible without creating a wider middle east conflict and how we are going to deal with an ever more aggressive/hostile Iran.)

        After 5 years we have what? about 4 trials going on?

        Yea, that is bullshit

        Congratulations for being in their service and their apologist. We need heroes now, not tools for the thieves and murderers. If you can't see what these people do, and are clueless about Geneva Conventions, you are a poor excuse for a US serviceman or woman.

         It will make matters worse if you can't tell the difference between just and unjust treatment, between legal and illegal orders.

        and so is this comment.

        I never did anything illegal.  Those holding the detainees in Iraq aren’t the ones who make policy.  They are told to hold them and treat them respectfully, and they do.   And if they don’t, they are punished.

        "Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum."- Vegetius

        by Captain Infidel on Sat Jun 16, 2007 at 01:13:35 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Your easy defense of our treatment of prisoners (0+ / 0-)

          loses credibility when one considers the photos from abu ghraib.  If those photos had not reached the public, there is no doubt that we have been told that everything was kosher there, too.  And you would have us ignore every other report from the Red Cross, Amnesty International, and others.  You would have us ignore the known deaths and disappearances.  If you want to be treated seriously, you need to engage honestly with the facts.  Perhaps because of your personal experience, you can correct some of our incorrect notions.  But no one is going to listen to you if you claim that there is no abuse anywhere in any of our military prisons, because we know that to be dead wrong.

          If it's our freedom they hate, they must love Bush's response to the WTC attacks.

          by geomoo on Sat Jun 16, 2007 at 01:22:19 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Good point (0+ / 0-)

            the photos from abu ghraib.  If those photos had not reached the public, there is no doubt that we have been told that everything was kosher there, too.

            That was ONE incident and it was horrible.  It was more representitive of a bunch of immature and sadistic people who 'got off' on humiliating people.  Chances are, if they were in college, they'd be in a frat doing the same crap to pledges.   Abu is what happens when you send in a bunch of reservists who were not trained adequately for their job and, through poor leadership, were not supervised adequately.  It was an embarassment to all of us who serve and, frankly were fucking sick of it getting thrown in all of our faces like we had any part in it.

            And you would have us ignore every other report from the Red Cross, Amnesty International, and others.

            Red Cross I respect (having dealt with them).  They seemed mostly fair.  We got decent marks from them.  They were unrealistic in many aspects as they wanted us to provide things to the detainees that we ourselves did not have (so how are we going to get it for them if we can't get it for ourselves) or wanted us to give them things that would assist in them a.making weapons, b. harming us or c.escaping.  Amnesty International I have no respect for whatsoever.  They have slammed this country to no end and mostly overlooked the actions of the jihadis or how they 'contribute' to the results of the coalition actions. (example: bashing Israel for killing civilians while ignoring the fact that hezbolla/hamas launch/store rockets purposefully in civilian areas in hope that a. Israel won't bomb it or b. when they do, they win the propaganda war.)

            You would have us ignore the known deaths and disappearances.

            This I have no knowledge of (ie prisoners dissapearing from American run internment facilities).  The ones I have heard about the soldiers are getting prosecuted vigorously and more than likely will spend a significant portion (if not all) of the rest of their lives in a military prison.

            If you want to be treated seriously, you need to engage honestly with the facts.  

             Facts?  Like what?  Ok, like in the entire time I was in Iraq working in a detention facility I only saw 1 case of abuse substantiated by investigating officers but I saw hundreds that were frivilous and/or completely unfounded.  I have never been to Abu or talked to more than one or two who were there when it first opened.  I only speak from my POV.

            Perhaps because of your personal experience, you can correct some of our incorrect notions.  But no one is going to listen to you if you claim that there is no abuse anywhere in any of our military prisons, because we know that to be dead wrong.

            I never said there was NO abuse... just that there is serious micromanagement and it would be very hard to get away with any abuse.  Soldiers and junior leaders who work in the detention facilities are seriously disgruntled (granted they could be out patrolling the streets) because they view the command as favoring the detainees welfare and comfort over theirs.  Those that do screw up are punished.  Are their screw ups... yea, are their bad people in positions of leadership/trust... yea, but the military overall is taking decent care of the detainees and punishing those of their own who step out of line.  Sometimes I just get fed up seeing that much press demonizing us... while seeing very little into why a majority of these detainees are actually in the prison to start with.

            "Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum."- Vegetius

            by Captain Infidel on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 10:31:08 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  It's interesting to hear from an insider (0+ / 0-)

              And it is encouraging to hear that most people have not lost their humanity, even though they have encountered very trying conditions for a long time now.  I have to say again, though, than when you say this

              It was more representitive of a bunch of immature and sadistic people who 'got off' on humiliating people.  Chances are, if they were in college, they'd be in a frat doing the same crap to pledges.

              then I don't know how much stock to put into this

              just that there is serious micromanagement and it would be very hard to get away with any abuse.

              I'm not really doubting you here, because you are speaking from experience and you seem honest.  What I am saying is that nothing like what happened at AG has ever happened in a fraternity house, and when you compare them, your credibility is undermined.  More debatable is to what extent they were doing things they had been told to do.  I have read the claim that some of the techniques used at AG were developed by psychologists in cooperation with the CIA and had been used earlier elsewhere.  How would these simple soldiers have come up with these techniques on their own, and why the hell would they have brought some of that equipment from home?

              the military overall is taking decent care of the detainees and punishing those of their own who step out of line.  Sometimes I just get fed up seeing that much press demonizing us... while seeing very little into why a majority of these detainees are actually in the prison to start with.

              I really feel for you here.  I am reassured by your comments, while feeling bad for all you soldiers being put in these positions.  I even feel bad for some of the people who have engaged in torture.  Many of them are very, very young and have been through experiences we here at home can't even imagine.  I think most people, even those with a very dim view of the military's record, save their animosity for those in command and particular for the clown heading our DOJ who thinks torture is just peachy.

              Finally, I completely believe you that your experience is at odds with what is reported.  Anyone who has ever been a part of something, then seen it reported on, will understand that the press almost never gets it right.  I think a fundamental barrier to our reaching an understanding is that you have been busy doing your duty to the best of your ability, while I am standing back and looking at the policies and statements of the leaders of our government.  Surely you could not do your job very well if you allowed yourself the cynical, enraged view I hold towards the inane, self-defeating, incompetent policies of our government.  I don't blame soldiers who are put in positions they were never trained for.  I blame leaders who don't plan and train properly.  Similarly, because the government has not been careful as to who they detained, and has not been honest in their conduct, we at home question the validity of any of the detentions.  The problems all start at the top.

              Thanks so much for the insider's view.  Despite the arguing between us, I am very encouraged by the view you paint of the military taking great pains in their treatment of detainees and of soldiers holding one another accountable.  It is pathetic that the shit that should be directed at Alberto Gonzales and other policy makers and commanders is flowing right down to the soldier who is being unjustly accused of abuse.  That is the army way.

              If it's our freedom they hate, they must love Bush's response to the WTC attacks.

              by geomoo on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 11:12:35 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

  •  I sent this email (3+ / 0-)

    "I read about what you are doing on Daily Kos.

    You are a great patriot.  I thank you for helping to defend not only your clients but the very essence of American justice.

    May you be granted great strength in your work and great joy in your life.

    With respectfully and admiration,"

    Hope others will send a note of encouragement as well.  I can't give $$ at this time but maybe in the future...

  •  Doris (If I may be so bold) (21+ / 0-)

    Please let me thank you from the bottom of my heart for standing up for these men and boys who are prisoners in Guantanamo.

    My husband was a Vietnam vet and POW who was tortured by his North Vietnamese captors. He suffered from his injuries until his fatal heart attack two years ago today. His screams still haunt my sleep.

    I have not enough words to express my heartbreak and my outrage over the situation your clients are in.

    Let me be clear:
    Sleep deprivation is torture.
    Clothing deprivation is torture.
    Food deprivation is torture.
    Forced feeding is torture.
    Sensory deprivation is torture.
    Lack of human contact is torture.
    Stress postions are torture.
    Intentionally cold environments are torture.
    Intentionally hot environments are torture.
    Beatings are torture.
    Waterboarding is torture.

    Please let your clients know, when you can see them, that there are those on the outside who are standing up with you on their behalf. Those are saying "Not in my name."

    Torture is NOT what my husband fought for.
    It's not what he gave his health for.
    It's not what he gave his mental health for.

    If you can use my help in ANY way, please email me at chacounne at gmail .com
    I would be honoured to help.

    Torture is ALWAYS wrong, no matter who is doing it to whom.
    For Dan,

  •  Humanity thanks you Doris (4+ / 0-)

    Blessings and Strength to you.

    "Fear not the path of truth for the lack of people walking on it." Robert F. Kennedy June 6th, 1968

    by enough already on Tue Jun 12, 2007 at 10:05:31 PM PDT

  •  America's shame. (6+ / 0-)

    Doris, I'm so grateful to you for the work you are doing for Abdul. I still can hardly believe this nightmare is happening--that my country's government tortures people and has convinced many of my fellow citizens that that is a good thing. Thank you for your efforts on his behalf--and its benefits for all of the Guantanamo prisoners.

  •  Thanks Doris, (4+ / 0-)

    I consider your work heroic.

  •  Thank you Doris (5+ / 0-)

    You are a light in a dark time!!

    Impeach Bush/Cheney/Gonzales

    by dangangry on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 12:15:56 AM PDT

  •  Similar story from Gitmo (4+ / 0-)

    This is what happens when the measure of success is warm bodies and money rather than accurate targets. When the 'waronterrrrr' is in the control of people who don't know the difference between all them 'ferrrnerrrs'....

    SNIPPET about unlucky group of Chinese Uighurs (ethnic minority, Muslims, oppressed, sometimes separatist fighters)now resettled most unhappily in Albania where the USA dumped them--the only country that would take them because China pressured all others. The Uighurs said the most traumatic part of Gitmo was when the US allowed in Chinese interrogators.......

    The 22 Uighurs who ended up at Guantánamo were part of a group of about three dozen Uighur men who were staying at a hamlet in the White Mountains of eastern Afghanistan, not far from Tora Bora, when United States forces began bombing the area in October 2001.

    . . . . said they had left their homes in China’s far-western Xinjiang Province, an area the Uighurs call East Turkestan, to earn more money for their families and escape government harassment. They said they drifted into Afghanistan after travels through other Central Asian countries, and heard that the Uighur hamlet was a place where they could get free food and shelter while trying to figure out where to go next.

    In mid-October of 2001, American planes bombed the Uighur hamlet, killing at least one man and sending the rest fleeing over the mountains into Pakistan. Villagers there sheltered and fed the Uighurs but then betrayed them to local security forces, which turned them over to the United States military.

    emphasis mine.

    •  I know a couple of Uighur refugees (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      LNK, geomoo

      here in Norway.  Please don't call them "Chinese".  As they see it, their country, East Turkestan, is occupied by China.  When people call them Chinese, they are insulted.

      It's almost amusing that in learning Norwegian they had to learn yet another alphabet.  They don't know English, but the husband taught Turkish, Chinese and Russian as well as his mother tongue at home.

      The Republicans are defunding, not defending, America.

      by DSPS owl on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 09:35:10 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Why I believe USA could do this (6+ / 0-)

    Doris is doing heroic work and yes, it's a nightmare we didn't expect........but, on reflection, the USA has a sad history of domestic torture, lynchings, etc.

    There are too many examples of outrageous injustice still happening.

    For example--how many innocent people did then Gov. Bush execute? One man on death row who was executed, I believe, had a lawyer who fell asleep in court. Evidence was unreliable eyewitness testimony ...seen in the dark, at a distance.

    •  The Comment Above (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      One Pissed Off Liberal

      where it is stated the US 'had' the best justice system in the world is an example of the fatally compromised framing that the US is the 'best' at just about anything.

      Our justice system has always been abused as a means to control the working classes and for one to actually receive justice is proportionate to one's ability to pay for said 'justice'.

      Good lord, we toss more people in prison for less cause than any so-called 'free nation' on earth.

      If we are to be judged by what Americans are taught to believe about America and America's actual performance there is only one conclusion that can be reached-

      We pretty much suck.

      You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you mad. -Aldous Huxley

      by Dave925 on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 03:37:12 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Doris, you are a courageous and decent person (8+ / 0-)

    who is doing incredibly important and necessary work on behalf of not only these unlawfully held men, but our country and its constitutional democracy. By standing up to our present regime and challenging its immoral, unconstitutional and frankly absurd policies, you are helping to protect these mens' rights, and our democracy. I am firmly convinced that you and they will be vindicated someday, and that your persistence and dedication will pay off in ways that you probably find hard to imagine right now, given how discouraging things seem to be.

    But this is how democracy is kept alive and relevant, by its being exercized, passionately and unapologetically as you have. Our country's values and interests have always been advanced by people such as yourself, not by the other side, which has always sought to hold it back. You will find that you have many, many friends, allies and fellow "collaborators" in the progressive blogosphere, which I HIGHLY encourage you to spend what little free time you have perusing.

    Aside from this blog--which I hope you'd consider joining and participating in, as your unique perspective would be a very valuable and powerful one--I would strongly recommend that you check out the blog of Glenn Greenwald, who is a constitutional and civil rights lawyer who has been brilliantly blogging for several years on issues such as the Bush admininistration's atrocious unlawful detention and torture policies and its abuses of civil liberties, among other issues (he also write a lot about how the media continues to support the administration's policies and makes it easier for them to get away with them, a topic that I imagine you're familiar with). You may even want to contact him as I'm sure he'd be more than happy to help you and offer any advice that he can, or perhaps write about your efforts on his blog.

    Again, a million thanks for doing this vitally important work, and I hope you will continue to find the strength to keep doing what you're doing--and that we'll be hearing from you soon!

  •  How do you donate to the defense fund? (3+ / 0-)

    I went to the link for her law firm, but I didn't see it.


    •  I'm trying to set up a link (0+ / 0-)

      but my power has been out, then I had no time.  Either send something just to her address plainly marked, or please, please check back later.  Thanks.  I won't be able to be deal with this until late afternoon.

      If it's our freedom they hate, they must love Bush's response to the WTC attacks.

      by geomoo on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 09:28:20 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Please see the latest update (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      You can write a check to the Tennant Lubell Detainee Fund and send it to the address on their website.  Or pay by credit card, again through the firm.  Thanks.

      If it's our freedom they hate, they must love Bush's response to the WTC attacks.

      by geomoo on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 12:39:28 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Heard another lawyer for a detainee speak (5+ / 0-)

    a couple of nights ago, Shaun Nolan.  His talk was amazing.  His client has been there six years and is in solitary confinement.  Nolan says he is losing his mind. He did nothing but be in the wrong place in the wrong time, but he has been made to suffer enormously.
    Everyone looks forward to the hypothetical closing of the camp when/if a Democrat is elected in 2008.  But even if that happens, those who have become psychotic or suffer from severe PTSD will not recover easily, if ever.  The damage will have been done in most cases, so in a perverse way, Bush still wins.
    I support your wife's work enthusiastically and will make a donation to support it.  Thanks for the opportunity and a great diary.

    One cannot deny the humanity of another without diminishing one's own. James Baldwin

    by CarolynC967 on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 03:58:04 AM PDT

    •  Many face violence if returned to their countries (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      DSPS owl, timewarp

      And other countries are not eager to welcome people once called the worst of the worst.  There are no easy solutions to the mess created here.

      If it's our freedom they hate, they must love Bush's response to the WTC attacks.

      by geomoo on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 12:13:16 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  An important point (0+ / 0-)

        & reminds me of Colin Powell's Pottery Barn analogy.  

        Unfortunately, we owe a huge debt, not only to the prisoners we have taken in Afghanistan and Iraq, but also to the people of those countries.  

  •  My mother escaped from Soviet Ukraine (6+ / 0-)

    My grandfather (a Russian Orthodox priest) died in one of Stalin's concentration camps. I never thought I would live to see America go down the same road, but anyone who doesn't think it can happen here is delusional.  

    Guantanamo is a horror and a blight on the American soul.  If the prisoners did bad things, they should be punished.  But we all know there are innocent people there and the treatment they're receiving is inhumane and criminal in itself.  Who ARE we as a people if we let this continue?

    All the Guantanamo lawyers are heroes and we owe them a tremendous debt for stepping up for what must be a very lonely battle.

    No telling what new harm Bush might do if he ever gets back up off the mat. You have to keep your knee on his windpipe until the danger is past. -G. Trudeau

    by LarisaW on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 06:06:34 AM PDT

    •  My condolences for your grandfather (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      I have often noted the enthusiastic patriotism of immigrants to the US from Eastern Europe and the former Soviet Union.  It has always seemed that love of freedom for them comes from understanding what it is not to live in freedom.  I'm afraid our naivete is preventing many Americans from recognizing state oppression when they see it.

      If it's our freedom they hate, they must love Bush's response to the WTC attacks.

      by geomoo on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 12:43:49 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Thank you for putting a face on one prisoner (5+ / 0-)

    What a truly depressing story. Is America so fragile that we fear destruction from a one-legged man?

    It's so disgusting to know that our Congress could do something about closing down this place but are more worried about seeming tough than upholding the law of the land. How did we get here?  Bush & Cheney's approval ratings can't get any lower and still they stand by them.  Their own ratings are dropping quickly, and still they don't budge.

    They get away with it by hiding the images of the fallout from their terrible decisions--the coffins and wounded from Iraq, the emaciated prisoners in GITMO, the tortured in secret prisons.  Confront them with the images and the stories they'd probably cower under their desks.  So pathetic.  

    Thanks so much for this diary.

    •  Yes. You've made this one man real to us. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      DSPS owl, timewarp, geomoo

      More of these stories need to be told, and far more widely.  

      THanks to Doris for her efforts.  THose of us who work for justice depend on the efforts of lawyers, among others -- they have one of the key skills for challenging power in this culture.  What social change movement in this country is not accompanied, on every step forward, by a small army of sympathetic pro-bono lawyers?  Doris is in honorable company indeed.

      Encourage her to set some limits, so she doesn't incapacitate herself.  The situation is awful, but it's going to go on for some time, and so those supporting Abdul Aziz will have to pace themselves.

      Please encourage her also not to fall prey to the kind of "survivor guilt" that says, "Why should I be able to take a night off -- have dinner with my husband -- go to a movie -- when the prisoners in Gitmo are suffering?"  I remember activists being driven by such thoughts in the 70's -- why should we stop and relax when villagers in Vietnam were being napalmed?  There's no answer that isn't paradoxical, perhaps illogical.  Yet the truth is that you need to nurture your own life in order to be able to keep giving.  And despite all that's going on in the world, you have a right to take pleasure in your one life.  It's not selfish or wrong.

      Blessings to you both, Geomoo

      •  My years of influence with Doris are long over... (0+ / 0-)

        but I think your loving advice is especially apt.  I will certainly highlight this comment for her when I send along some links.

        For myself, I feel clear about the issue you raise.  If I were in solitary confinement, it would mean a lot to me to know that somewhere people were celebrating life, enjoying nature, and keeping gentleness alive.  How depressing to think that even if released, one would still not be free to enjoy.  Therefore, for those of us who so lucky to be free, well-fed, warm, etc., one of our greatest obligations to the less fortunate is to exercise our human right to know joy as much as we can,  to practice the human ability to celebrate, to keep alive humanity's softer side while it is our turn to be blessed to do so.  We can do this for the sake of all our brothers and sisters.

        If it's our freedom they hate, they must love Bush's response to the WTC attacks.

        by geomoo on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 12:54:19 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Tell her... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          That her personal happiness is important, because she will be able to bring some of it to her incredible work.  

          It may seem so hopeless, right now.  But life (as eastern europeans know, for example) has a way of turning on a dime.  

          And please tell her that she is loved and respected by many of her fellow citizens for her courage and integrity.  

  •  The Black Hole of Guantanamo (5+ / 0-)

    Every story from Guantanamo is heartbreaking.  Every individual there has been torn completely away from everything he knew before.  Put in isolation.  Driven mad, and suicidal.

    When Bush speaks about his legacy, we must rebuke him loudly and fiercely, repeating over and over until he finally hears it:

    You have destroyed the best hopes that humanity has offered, the hopes of justice, mercy, and freedom for all, and you have done so deliberately.  

    For this, your name shall go down in infamy, and may it never again be spoken without a curse along with it.

  •  Even prisoners in general pop (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    NYFM, Eddie Haskell

    often end up mentally ill after 5 years. I know a guy who cannot eat at a table with anyone else. He hunches over his food like a dog when he has to eat in a room with others even if he is alone at a table.

    The biggest threat to America is not communism, it's moving America toward a fascist theocracy... -- Frank Zappa

    by NCrefugee on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 06:38:34 AM PDT

  •  These lawyers are American heroes (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Eddie Haskell, potownman, geomoo

    They deserve a lot more recognition. A friend of mine is also a Guantanamo lawyer, though he is fortunate in that he has a corporate job that subsidizes the pro bono. And I was at college with your wife's law partner (though I haven't seen her since graduation).

    My thanks to them, and to all who are doing this vital work.

    You can tell you have created God in your own image when it turns out that he or she hates all the same people you do. - Anne Lamott

    by javelina on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 07:16:09 AM PDT

  •  Somebody send this to Mitt Romney (3+ / 0-)

    He wants to "double Guantanamo."

  •  Highly recced--new solitary prisons? (4+ / 0-)

    This is the first I've heard about it. Every single person there is going to be in a much worse way mentally very, very quickly, which doesn't even seem possible.

    The sickness of our current government continues to surprise me in new ways every day.

    "Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about the things that matter." Dr. ML King, from a jail cell in Birmingham, Alabama in 1963.

    by bewert on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 07:35:42 AM PDT

    •  New solitary prisons? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Neon Mama, geomoo

      Allow me to sneak a comment in here, because I don't know enough about the matter to diary it.  Aker Kværner ASA is a huge (for Norway) contracting outfit which has branches in several countries.  Amnesty International-Norway is pushing for the justice department to investigate Aker Kværner for its work at Guantánamo which included building "cages" for prisoners and electrical and other work.  Amnesty wants such a case to tell Norwegian firms where the line should be drawn with regard to cooperating with torturers.

      If Aker Kværner should lose a court case, they must pay a fine + what they were paid for their work, an amount in excess of 15 million US dollars.

      This info is from an article by Lars Hoff in Amnesty-Norway's magazine for June 2007.

      The Republicans are defunding, not defending, America.

      by DSPS owl on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 10:16:03 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  God bless Doris and her work. (3+ / 0-)

    Her struggle for her client protects all of us.

    Neutralize your personal 7.5 ton/year CO2 footprint.

    by Five of Diamonds on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 08:14:14 AM PDT

  •  Can I send my Ex to Guantanamo? (0+ / 0-)

    And get out of paying child support?

    No, I'm not serious, but it's a fun thought.

    We're all pretty crazy some way or other; some of us just hide it better. "Normal" is just a setting on the dryer.

    by david78209 on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 08:22:07 AM PDT

  •  What to do (4+ / 0-)

    Something practical Ms. Tennant requests:

    ...legislation to restore habeas corpus rights to the prisoners. It looks like the restoration of this right, a core principle of our nation, will be a very close vote... Contacting your Senators and Representative to request their vote for habeas corpus restoration will help to ensure that this most important avenue of relief from arbitrary detention is preserved here

    •  S. 3930 (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      churchylafemme, Prognosticator

      Was the reason I decided I could no longer be called a member of the Democratic Party.  Though the other party is absolutely, thoroughly abhorrent.

      Congress' actions in these regards have been among the most shameful in this country's, and indeed, the entirety of Western civilization's, history.

      Not to mention the countenance of this from the "Administration."

      There is no "debate" over torture. It is an evil at all times and all places.  It is also a crime under international and national law.  That makes two groups: those against torture and criminals.  --- Dinah L. Shelton, Professor of Law; Patricia Roberts Harris Research Professor of Law, George Washington University Law School

      Newsweek Letter.

      To announce...that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.

      by potownman on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 08:42:29 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Solitary Confinement is Torture (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Fiona West

    There is a scene from a movie (1950s or 1960s?) set in a Nazi POW camp where a particularly spirited American soldier is being put back into a shack for solitary confinement. Even though we've seen evidence of his courage and strength of character, as he's being pushed into the shack he starts struggling and screaming in terror. You see the other soldiers looking away in helpless despair. Does anyone remember the name of the movie? That scene made a huge impression on me as a kid.

    So much of what was perfectly obvious after Hitler now seems questionable to way too many Americans.

    "Strength and wisdom are not opposing values" - Bill Clinton, 2004 Democratic Convention

    by AceDeuceLady on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 09:03:34 AM PDT

    •  Solitary confinement breaks people down (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      DSPS owl, s marie, geomoo

      psychologically.  Even strong people. It goes against our basic neurological wiring.

      It's a farce to claim that routine solitary confinement is needed at GItmo, given the numbers of the security force there and the many options already available to them before the new facility was built.  And the higher-ups know by now that many of these people are there because of bad luck, not because they're the "worst of the worst."  So there's no excuse for this barbaric treatment.

      And as for the genuinely guilty -- how will they ever be tried?  What American court will accept evidence acquired by torture?  None should. Any fool knows such evidence is unreliable. We have no clean way to deal with those at Gitmo who may actually be dangerous.  And our dealing with the innocent and probably-innocent is a lasting stain on our national honor.

      What a stunning combination of callousness and incompetence, of cruelty and stupidity, has gone into creating this mess.

  •  What the hell are we doing... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    with people in this place...I really have no words.

    It's unforgivable.

    Anti-War is not a protest, it's common sense.

    by Janosik on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 09:38:25 AM PDT

  •  Coming up - ACLU Day of Action (4+ / 0-)

    The ACLU is hosting a Day of Action to Restore Law and Justice in Washington, DC on June 26th.  There are free buses in many cities for transport.  Here's the schedule:

    7:00 a.m. - 9:00 a.m. - Executive Branch Demonstration (for those already in D.C.)
    9:30 a.m. - 11:00 a.m. - Lobby Training (close to Upper Senate Park)  
    11:30 a.m. - 1:00 p.m. - RALLY at Upper Senate Park
    1:30 p.m. - 5:00 p.m. - Storm the Hill: Lobby Meetings with Senators and Representatives
    Note: Lobbying will be done in groups. All attendees are encouraged to participate!

    I'm coming from Boston and I'll take a copy of Doris's letter with me.

  •  A REAL American hero (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    timewarp, geomoo

    Unlike so many others who think that killing and torturing innocent people amounts to patriotism and "bravery."  

    Thank goodness there are still a few Americans out there like Doris.

  •  You sound like an amazingly supportive ex..... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    churchylafemme, timewarp

    and your ex just sounds like an amazing person, period. She is one of the few who are actually doing something to help out these people, she is a true hero, in every sense of the word.

    It is a f'ing shame, a disgust, and an outrage that these people are being treated in such a heinous manner. How many of these people are innocent? Yet, we just let them fucking languish there, day after day, week after week, month after month, and year after year. It's a travesty of justice.

    Where the hell is your outrage America?

    No Retreat Baby, No Surrender

    by WI Dem on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 01:43:03 PM PDT

    •  I'm not such a great ex, (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      churchylafemme, timewarp

      but this situation transcends the petty and personal.  I have always respected Doris' integrity and courage on issues of social justice.  When I found out she was doing this, I just wanted to help.  The outrage you express is made all the worse for feeling helpless.  At least I can do a little something to help by supporting Doris in this way.

      If it's our freedom they hate, they must love Bush's response to the WTC attacks.

      by geomoo on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 02:09:18 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  This what my comrades are fighting for, What a Di (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    This is what George Bush and his Crime Family have my comrades fighting for !  Impeach the S.O.B.'s
    Leonard Clak
    Chair of the John McCain and Jon Kyl Recall Committees  contact : 623-423-6300
    Persian Gulf/Iraq Occupation III

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