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Not many -- perhaps not any -- of those former Jews pushing Jesus pamphlets on street corners experienced spontaneous conversion. Christian missionizing achieves most Jewish conversions. One of the most energetic evangelizers of Jews is the Southern Baptist Convention, the largest Protestant denomination in the U.S. recently posted a feature package on the SBC's efforts to convert Jews. The package, which includes a report and recorded conversations with rabbis and experts on Christian Zionism, examines how the Southern Baptist Convention works through a Messianic Fellowship which uses faux rabbis and Jewish rituals to proselytize Jews.

Southern Baptists Rely on Deception in Effort to Convert Jews
Messianic Congregations Offer Reassuring Jewish Symbols
by, June 25, 2007

Six million Jews and only 15 Southern Baptist Messianic Churches! A Southern Baptist Convention (SBC) official's recent juxtaposition of the US Jewish population (and, by inevitable association, the number of Jews killed in the Holocaust) with the SBC's main vehicle for converting Jews raised this question: is the SBC's objective to empty Judaism of American Jews and make them all Messianic Southern Baptists?

At its 1996 annual meeting, the Southern Baptist Convention resolved to focus on converting Jews -- specifically to "direct our energies and resources toward the proclamation of the Gospel to the Jews." This year's meeting afforded a look at how the SBC goes about evangelizing the Jews through the Southern Baptist Messianic Fellowship.

The "messianic" -- Jesus worshipping -- congregations endeavor to appear "Jewish" in order to provide a reassuring display of Jewish symbols to potential converts. Rabbis contacted for this report deemed the Jewish facade deceptive. Continue readingour complete report at

Originally posted to Jane JewsOnFirst on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 02:15 PM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

  •  SBC's Primary Objective (7+ / 0-)

    Is to bring about -- or at least bear witness to a very imminent -- End Times.  This is why Jimmy Carter very publicly left the Baptist Church.  It became all End Times, all the time.

    Sadly for Jewish people, the End Times involves a second Holocaust, where half of their number will die and the other half will be converted.  I think that this is supposed to happen so, according to Rev. Hagee and Co., so get ready, folks!

    Beyond this, though ...  To me, it's just a matter of religious freedom.  I can't imagine what would convince someone to become a Southern Baptist, but, hey ...  It happens and it's a free country.

    Middle Class Mother-F!cking Warrior

    by bink on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 02:16:46 PM PDT

    •  Actually, you're wrong about Carter (8+ / 0-)
      and why he left the SBC. He said he was disturbed by the church's increasingly rigid application of the Bible in cases like the role of women. But he said the most significant reason was the elimination of language that identifies Jesus Christ as "the criterion by which the Bible is to be interpreted." He felt that in diminishing the role and the preaching of Jesus, it opened the door to place the sorts of Old Testament quotes we see them throwing around all the time on a par with what Jesus said and how he lived. And that is what they have done.

      Also, don't make the mistake of thinking the SBC is all or mostly a bunch of end-timers or that somehow they have the monopoly on these types. The end-timers are a small minority of Christians and not particularly associated with the SBC. I would say it's far more likely that the underlier of the SBC is the will to power -- they want to control US government and society. And the SBC's takeover by the Republican party (which, face it, is basically what happened) was engineered by the Institute for Religion and Democracy (IRD) which is not a religious group but a group whose goal is to smash and take over mainstream denominations for reasons of power and property. The end times don't have much to do with it.

      A new beginning for Ohio: The adults have taken over!

      by anastasia p on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 02:30:44 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I am SHOCKED (8+ / 0-)

      to learn that a religious denomination is using deceptive methods to poach members of another religion. This is a violation of the lengthy record of purely ethical and honest behavior on the part of not just the Southern Baptists, but organized religion in general, that we have all come to count on. I mean really, I'm shocked.


      Build the Iraq Moratorium Fri., Sept. 21!
      "Tell no lies. Claim no easy victories" -- Amilcar Cabral

      by Christopher Day on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 02:43:36 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Y'know, I'm Jewish and I just can't get (8+ / 0-)

    head-up over this.

    Sure, using deceptive marketing techniques is not, shall we say, kosher, but what percentage of American Jews are likely to convert to Southern Baptism, for chrissake?

    "War does not determine who is right - only who is left." - Bertrand Russell

    by Karmafish on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 02:18:03 PM PDT

    •  But that's the point (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      arielle, Treg, Karmafish, jimmyboyo

      I live in the South, so I see this all the time.  The point is that they do their best to set up these "congregations" so that they don't look like Southern Baptism.

      Rocky Top will always be home sweet home to me, but it will NOT always be Republican.

      by GoldnI on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 02:32:21 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Generally they prey on (6+ / 0-)

      people whose parents denied them any kind of spiritual grounding or support and who are hungry for the same. The other major group who make hay in this market are Aishe and Chabad. While the last two lead to regressive forms of Judaism, at least they are authentically Jewish.

      •  At my college (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        tikkun, Treg, Eiron, jimmyboyo

        The Chabad people keep trying to convert me.  My best friend, however, is Modern Orthodox, and he HATES them.  He thinks that a "pretty young Reform girl" like me is an ideal target.  Personally, I think it's funny.

        Rocky Top will always be home sweet home to me, but it will NOT always be Republican.

        by GoldnI on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 02:45:00 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Chabad are pretty cool, (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Eiron, GoldnI

          they aren't dishonest. "We're a group of orthodox Hassidim who aim to bring any and all Jews we can reach to greater observance of the ceremonial law", or as they would say it, "halaches".

          Socialism: Aspirin for your social-welfare headaches. (Use in moderation.)

          by Shaviv on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 03:14:51 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  In my vast personal experience (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      tikkun, Wee Mama, Karmafish, Eiron, jimmyboyo
      (I grew up in a community so Jewish I can still name every kid I went to school with who WASN'T Jewish), I would say their success rate will be only marginally better than if they invaded a Unitarian Church. I have actually known Jewish who have converted to Unitarianism or UCC and there's me (half Jewish) who is now Episcopalian. But as you say Southern Baptism, for  crissake?


      A new beginning for Ohio: The adults have taken over!

      by anastasia p on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 02:33:22 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  unitarianism (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Karmafish, jimmyboyo

        doesn't really require "conversion"; I've known people who were both unitarian and Jewish. People who embrace the unitarian philosophy don't find that odd at all.

        •  Why do I get the sense that you can (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          howardx, jimmyboyo

          believe damn near anything and yet still consider yourself Unitarian?

          I'm guessing all that is required is some belief in a "higher power," yes?

          "War does not determine who is right - only who is left." - Bertrand Russell

          by Karmafish on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 02:51:05 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  We believe in one god at most. (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            FlyingToaster, corvo, Karmafish, jimmyboyo
            •  Doesn't the Unitarian faith accept the idea (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Eiron, melvin, jimmyboyo

              that all the world's religions offer paths toward the sacred?

              My understanding is that Unitarianism is highly eclectic and ecumenical.

              "War does not determine who is right - only who is left." - Bertrand Russell

              by Karmafish on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 03:03:09 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  At the very least that clues, wisdom (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Karmafish, jimmyboyo

                can be found in other traditions.

                I am not a UU. But I used to rent a house from them in return for keeping an eye on the isolated UU church next door, which owned it. I attended a number of functions there although not services. They seemed as undogmatic a group a could be found anywhere, and more likely to proseltyze about local poltical issues (from multiples sides) than religion.

                By the way, this was over 20 years ago, and they were one of a pretty small handful of churches in the area performing same sex marriages.

              •  Free and responsible search (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:

                I wrote a bit about this downthread, just as you were writing.  A UU is encouraged (I'd prefer to say obliged) to engage in "a free and responsible search for truth and meaning." Many UUs do come to the conclusion that all the world's religions offer paths toward the sacred. But many UUs are atheists to whom nothing is sacred.* In their search, these UUs are often exploring ideas found in humanism, philosophy of science, and science itself, rather than the world's religions.

                *Pedantic note: I did not write

                many UUs are atheists, to whom nothing is sacred.

                Atheism and spirituality are not mutually exclusive.

                I believe that ignorance is the root of all evil. And that no one knows the truth. RIP, Molly Ivins. And thanks.

                by Nowhere Man on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 03:22:49 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  4 US presidents were Unitarians (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:


                A quick search brought this up

                Plus Jefferson had Unitarian leanings thought not one.

              •  that is the "universalism" part (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Karmafish, Nowhere Man

                the idea that nobody has a copyright on god was central to the unitarian church I attended as a child. It's not a "belief in anything" as some critics suggest, it's actually a very strong perspective. That there is one "god" and different faiths offer culturally specific paths to forge a relationship with it.  Universalism is in and of itself threatening to a lot of people for that reason, as it pretty much leaves clergy in a very humble position.

            •  UUs aren't restricted to any particular theology (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Karmafish, Eiron, melvin, jimmyboyo

              Some UUs believe in a god. There are also somewho believe in many.

              Almost all UUs believe in the seven principles. (I won't say "all", because there's bound to be some out there who only accept six, or five, or some N < 7.) If I had to pick one out as the defining principle, it would be this one:

              A free and responsible search for truth and meaning;

              Only I would use different punctuation:

              A free and responsible search for truth and meaning!

              In other words, performing a free and responsible search for truth and meaning isn't so much an option available to UUs, as it is an obligation of being a UU. Not, of course, that every UU will agree with me on this :-)

              I believe that ignorance is the root of all evil. And that no one knows the truth. RIP, Molly Ivins. And thanks.

              by Nowhere Man on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 03:08:40 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  damn im out then (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:

              i have a personal pantheon of many gods

              Ol' Howard just pointed with his gun And said that way down on Highway 61.

              by howardx on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 04:18:03 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  Karma Exactly (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            :-)  Unitairanism summed up pretty well.

            Pretty much a supreme power and jesus was a prophet just like budha, moses, etc.

        •  I know many people (3+ / 0-)

          Myself included, who see no contradiction between Judaism and Buddhism.

          Rocky Top will always be home sweet home to me, but it will NOT always be Republican.

          by GoldnI on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 02:59:58 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  That might be because of some cross influence (5+ / 0-)

            Budha was like 400 years prior to the jesus myth.

            There are written records showing that Budhist intelectuals traveled via roman trade routes into the empire to the great library in Alexandria and to the city of Antioch some 100+ yrs prior to the dates that supposedly jesus was born.  To get to Alexandria in Egypt one would have had to cross at least the southern most tip of judea.  Cross influence would not be a stretch of the imagination.

    •  From the Jewish perspective (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      arielle, Karmafish, GoldnI, jimmyboyo

      Just saying that Jesus is the Messiah or the son of God is deceptive, and false.

      But you know what we call Jews for Jesus?  Christians.

      In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.

      by Paul in Berkeley on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 05:00:26 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Good luck! They'll need it. (4+ / 0-)
    It would be one thing if they were an ordinary, progressive, welcoming protestant denomination, Episcopalians or UCC or Quakers. But I know probably hundreds of Jews in my circle of acquaintances and I doubt there's more than one or two that could even remotely accept the priorities and political stances of a church group that's essentially become a wing of the Republican party. I've never encounted a Jew who believed in persecuting gay people. Most of the ones I've met are pro-choice and almost all are pro-woman and would balk at the very idea of women not being allowed to participate on the same level as men. Most are educated, accomplished, smart and Democrats, and would find a church that rubber-stamps Republican party politics to be problematic, even if they were to become interested in the message of Jesus. About the only point of rapport might, for some, be the strengthening of Israel, but even there, most would part ways in some particulars.

    About the only Jews around that buy into the Republican framing of social issues that the SBC uses would be the orthodox, who are not among my circle but have tended to vote Republican here, and I suspect they are not very ripe for conversion.

    A new beginning for Ohio: The adults have taken over!

    by anastasia p on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 02:21:01 PM PDT

    •  anastasia Orthedox judaism does persecute gays (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      tikkun, FlyingToaster, corvo

      Recently for example saw orthedox Jews throwing stones, stabing, planting bombs, and even in frustration calling down the wrath of G-D upon Israeli gays when they were planning a gay pride parade in Jerusalem.

      More than a few orthedox Jews do throw stones and have even resorted to stabings of israeli gays when they leave gay bars in Israel.

      Judaism has its share of radical fundie wack jobs just like islam and the cult of the galileans.

      In america we are not exposed to the fundie wackado orthedox jews mainly because not too many of them are over here.  Many Israelis bemoan them over in israel though.  especialy when they do their little throwing stones at cars that are being driven on shabbat

      •  Read my post; I added a qualifer (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        FlyingToaster, Karmafish, jimmyboyo
        about Orthodox, whom I do not know any of personally. THEY support the Republican social values positions on gays and abortion among other things. And they vote more Republican than any other Jewish group based on my experience here in Ohio where they seemed to overwhelmingly support J. Kenny Blackwell for governor, while the reformed and conservative Jews, of whom i do know many, supported Ted Strickland, the Democrat (who ran and won with a jewish lieutenant governor, Lee Fisher) But Orthodox are probably the Jews LEAST ripe for conversion to another faith so that doesn't help the SBC much.

        A new beginning for Ohio: The adults have taken over!

        by anastasia p on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 02:38:34 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  true on that (0+ / 0-)

          Orthodox are probably the Jews LEAST ripe for conversion to another faith so that doesn't help the SBC much.

          Many an orthedox doesn't even like talking to goyim let alone going to waste the time to hear a conversion scam.

          •  That's a pretty hefty tar brush you got there. nt (0+ / 0-)

            Socialism: Aspirin for your social-welfare headaches. (Use in moderation.)

            by Shaviv on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 03:20:39 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Maybe I should qualify it with the word "ultra" (0+ / 0-)

              as in Ultra Orthedox

              would that be satisfactory?

              •  I think that would be fair. (5+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Eiron, GoldnI, Bronx59, sandbox, jimmyboyo

                I suppose it's personal. As a Jew living in an orthodox Jewish community, I just don't see any of the violent sentiments and hatreds - and this community has moved fairly far in the haredi direction in the past ten years.

                Now, I'm not a doctrinaire kind of guy, so I am free to think unholy thoughts, like pondering the latest research in sexual development. Everyone else... they maybe regard homosexual people as a little confused, or as doing something which is bad, but not something that needs to be punished by force of law, and certainly not something that needs to be punished by extrajudicial violence.

                What those frothing-at-the-mouth idiots have forgotten is, well, two principles of Judaism.

                First, one who strikes his fellow (extrajudicially) and causes injury or death is a criminal and is dealt with appropriately. (Murder is a capital crime; although generally orthodox Judaism embraces capital punishment in principle and rejects it in fact because the process is broken, and too likely to kill innocents.)

                Second, dina d'malhuta dina - the law of the land is the law. Whatever state you live in, murder is against the law (apart from being immoral).

                Socialism: Aspirin for your social-welfare headaches. (Use in moderation.)

                by Shaviv on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 03:40:55 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  :-) I like your "frothing-at-the-mouth" descripti (0+ / 0-)

                  So very true.  

                  No group holds a monopoly on those types.

                  As a gay atheist, I tend to lump all "frothing-at-the mouth" types together wether jew, muslim, or follower of jesus myth.  Luckily for myself and other gay atheists they haven't all realized the commonality of their hate yet.  When they do, OY!!! I am running to  a mountain cave to wait out the troubles that would follow.

      •  A google search... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        GoldnI, sfbob

        ...of "stab gay bar Israel" shows only the three stabbings at the Gay Pride March in Jerusalem in 2005, as well as the torching of a gay bar in Jerusalem in 2005, in which no one was hurt.  In 2007, Israeli police stopped a single individual with a homemade bomb attempting to go to the location of the Pride parade.

        If there have been multiple stabbings at gay bars in Israel, please document them and let us know.

        The urge to save humanity is almost always a false face for the urge to rule it. ~ H.L. Mencken

        by Jay Elias on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 02:42:50 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Jay, come on (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          FlyingToaster, corvo, Eiron, sfbob

          you know as well as anyone else here that the haredi in Israel would do the same crap given half a chance. Israel is neither as big as nor as diverse as the USA, hence it is, thankfully, more manageable.

          •  What the Haredi would do... (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            GoldnI, sfbob

            ...and what the Haredi might condone are very different things.

            I see scant evidence of a widespread "gay panic" among Orthodox Israelis.  Certainly, there is resistance, and some violence, to open homosexuality in Jerusalem.  Other than that, it is difficult to see this as a particularly significant trend.

            The urge to save humanity is almost always a false face for the urge to rule it. ~ H.L. Mencken

            by Jay Elias on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 02:50:31 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Some links on crazy orthedox (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          FlyingToaster, Treg, corvo, Jay Elias

          That one covers the jerusalem police aresting Orthedox jews 2007 trying to plant bhombs to blow up gay israelis in refernce to the gay pride parade that was held in Jerusalem.

          That one covers a bomb set by orthedox jews that did explode in protest against gay israelis and the jerusalem gay pride 2007

          that one deals with the riots by orthedox jews against gay pride march jerusalem.  2 pics show orthedox throwing stones and setting fires

          There are many links to each of the above articles that go on to other stories of orthedox jews being violent and one article deals with the 2005 stabbing of a gay man by orthedox jew when leaving a gay bar in israel.

          The 3rd srticle even quotes a rabbi who says that gays are the one issue to unite orthedxo jews and radical muslims.

        •  Only three! (0+ / 0-)

          think progress indeed

          Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

          by Eiron on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 04:53:47 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Three two years ago... (0+ / 0-)

            ...and in a single incident.

            Hard to extrapolate a trend out of a single incident, no matter how awful.

            The urge to save humanity is almost always a false face for the urge to rule it. ~ H.L. Mencken

            by Jay Elias on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 07:17:13 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Bombs at gay pride march is this year 2007 (0+ / 0-)

              If 2005 was it then yeah your right.

              BUT 2005 wasn't it.

              2007 saw one bomb going off, another Ultra orthedox guy getting arested for trying to plant a bomb.  Stones thrown at gays and Jerusalem police, fires set, etc.

              Those are the cases reported.  Keep in mind here in america many hate crimes against gays don't get reported.  LIBERAL New York just saw a recent case where the gays who were jumped and assaulted by bashers were arested instead of the bashers and the police let the bashers go. etc

              I wonder if there is a statistic of how many hate crimes against gays occur in america each year.......if so then we could take that number and extrapolate out a percentage according to the population number in america (I think it is 300,000,ooo+ since the last census) and then do the same with israel (I think between 7 - 9,000,000 at the moment) and then compare.

              Fewer cases amongst a much smaller (like 46.2+ americans for every 1 Israeli - 32.2+ americans per Israeli) population, hate crimes against gays in Israel could be equivalent to the same in america though

              With the population numbers being where they are just the 3 stabbings in 2005 and not counting the bombs in 2007 would be the equivalent of 138.6+ to 96.6 hate crime stabings in america based on population.  Toss in bombings etc.  Yikes!

              Anyway; The silver lining in the recent 2007 bomb stuff is that the Jerusalem police (not a group of raging liberals) have been quoted as being p'd off at the haredi and sympathetic to gay Israelis due to what they have seen and experienced.  

      •  Remember though (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        There are several different types of Orthodox.  The ones you're talking about are Haredi, or "ultra" Orthodox, and they certainly are not mainstream.  Most of the ones in the U.S. are Modern Orthodox, and while they may be more conservative politically (and I should point out here that I know several Modern Orthodox who vote Democratic), they wouldn't condone tactics like those.

        Rocky Top will always be home sweet home to me, but it will NOT always be Republican.

        by GoldnI on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 02:47:25 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  That would be the extreme of the extreme. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        Not representative of orthodox Jews, most of whom blanch in horror, both at the inherent badness of assaulting people who aren't threatening you, and at the way it makes all Jews everywhere look really quite bad.

        Of course, the problem is this: who has the most control over these extreme-of-the-extreme thugs? Nobody else, really; only them. The police try to step in but they can't prevent crime, only follow it up with investigation. You might say the price of freedom is the freedom for other people to behave like angry feces-throwing chimps.

        Socialism: Aspirin for your social-welfare headaches. (Use in moderation.)

        by Shaviv on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 03:20:14 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  My kid wanted to be christian in LA in Texas (6+ / 0-)

    became more jewish.  My husband and I talked about letting our daughter go to these religious conversion experiences and we decided that if our way of life couldn't hold, she had the right to convert.

    In LA where Jews are everywhere, she would moan and groan about missing out on the everybody's doing it....

    In Texas, in middle school, she was one in a rural school of 1200.  That made her a target for conversion.  She went, she heard, and she came back more Jewish.

    In our family and the schull she was raised in it was very intellectual and very ethically focused.  The Jews I know personally don't do emotional in their religion.  So all the Texas Southern Baptist emotionality was so overwhelming, she rejected it.

    It is our tradition that where ten are gathered, there is eleven opinions.  SBC cannot even handle that concept.

  •  Just remember (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    tiponeill, Ayanora, A Citizen, corvo

    Bishop Eusebius 300's ad

    said it was perfectly moral, good, just, and righteous to lie for the sake of "saving souls"

    That from a man who was/is known as the "father of early history of the galileans", instrumental in the cannonization of the bible, and the formation of christendom.

    They have always lied.  They will always lie.  

    All religion is crazy.  BUT jews who subscribe to the fairytale of judaism should NEVER fall for the lies of the galilean fairytales (galilean is what they were called in the first centuries, to use the greek word christ = lord is to acquiesce to their claim that first their myth was real and 2nd that he was lord.)

  •  Jews 4 Jesus don't know ha Shem. (6+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    arielle, Karmafish, GoldnI, sfbob, Shaviv, jimmyboyo

    are typically children of those who converted a generation or two back.  The ones I have talked to knew nothing of Jewish traditions or beliefs.  Did not even know what Ha Shem means.

    Worthy of derision.

    How did I live without him?

    by Pumpkinlove on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 02:29:12 PM PDT

    •  That's interesting. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      yoduuuh do or do not

      A number of Christians I know, I can discuss theology and the scripture in Hebrew with them.

      Socialism: Aspirin for your social-welfare headaches. (Use in moderation.)

      by Shaviv on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 02:30:56 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  pumpkinlove yepp my own experience (0+ / 0-)

      exactly mirrors that.

      The jews for Jesus I have met at best had a great great grandfather who was jewish.  BUT, that doesn't count by any means

      -Orthedox = only matrilineal going back to up to 10 generations.  Great grandfathers and grandfathers, and even fathers do not count worth a hill of beans.

      -Conservative = the same as orthedox but also if father was and you are raised jewish.

      -reform = either or matrilineal or patriarchal but only if!!!!!!  You are raised jewish.

      I have never met someone who was truely jewish who had converted to the myth of the galilean cult.

      Technicaly a goy could convert to judaism and then later convert to being a jew for jesus, but that would just be a gentile/ goy for jesus in the end.

      •  Who's a Jew? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        This came up when some Orthodox in Israel decided that most American Jews are not Jews.  You may have inadvertently insulted the families of Jewish converts to Christianity.  

        By the way, the J in Jewish is usually capitalized, and there were more Galilean cults in Judaea in the century before the Sack of Jerusalem than there were palm trees.  At least two have survived:  one morphed into Christianity and the other, mostly found in Iraq, finds John the Baptist as its Messiah.

        Dems in 2008: An embarassment of riches. Repubs in 2008: Embarassments.

        by Yamaneko2 on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 03:01:26 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  According to the strict interpretation, (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Eiron, jimmyboyo

          if your mother was Jewish (by birth or by conversion) you are Jewish. If your mother was not Jewish, then unless you have undergone conversion you are not Jewish.

          So if more than half the American Jews cannot draw a matrilineal line to someone who they knew was Jewish, they are (according to the strict interpretation) not Jewish.

          (So if you want to become a Jew, in accordance with this strict interpretation, conversion is basically like a graduate course. Study scripture, commentary and law; change the way you live so that you live within the bounds of halakha, Jewish ceremonial law; and if you're a man, you will need to be either circumcised or, if that was done already, a drop of blood will be drawn from the head of your penis. Then it's just a dip in a rain-fed pool, akin to baptism, in the presence of at least two witnesses.)

          Socialism: Aspirin for your social-welfare headaches. (Use in moderation.)

          by Shaviv on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 03:11:53 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Yam (0+ / 0-)

          I thought I did capitalize the J, unintentional
          typo if I didn't.  I am fluent in typonese.  :-)

          I never heard about the John the Baptist as messiah group.

          Heck there were tons of christ cults prior to the time period of the jesus myth.  Osiris Christos, Horus Christos, Mithras Christos.  All the pagan saviour religions used christ as a title for their god.  christ for christians wasn't realy officialy christian christians till the council of nicea.

          As an atheist I refuse to use the word christ in refernce to the followers of that particular myth.  It would be equivalent to admiting they are right.  heck, I still demand one 1st person acount instead of hearsay decades after the supposed event to prove that their myth even existed historicaly.

          •  They're called Mandaeans (0+ / 0-)

            Mandaeans revere John the Baptist as God's most honorable messenger, and find Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammed to be false prophets.  It is a gnostic faith, with secrets know to the priesthood but not to the laity.  

            They were found in southern Iraq and Iran, but undergo discrimination in Iran and have suffered outright cleansing in Iraq under American and British occupation.  

            Dems in 2008: An embarassment of riches. Repubs in 2008: Embarassments.

            by Yamaneko2 on Sat Jul 07, 2007 at 12:20:39 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I was wrong about the Messiah part (n/t) (0+ / 0-)

              John the Baptist is the Mandaean's greatest prophet, but is no more a Messiah to them than Muhammad is a Messiah to most Muslims.  

              Dems in 2008: An embarassment of riches. Repubs in 2008: Embarassments.

              by Yamaneko2 on Sat Jul 07, 2007 at 12:21:55 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

  •  you might not like it (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    but there are messianic Jewish sects that have existed for centuries that have nothing to do with the southern baptists.  I have no doubt that the SBC is trying to convert Jews.  I also have no doubt that they aren't going to get far.
    But Messianic Jews have a right to identify themselves however they want just like everyone else in America.  I don't see how calling The Rabbi's Faux helps anything.

  •  Thank you for this (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    arielle, sfbob, jimmyboyo

    I see this in Tennessee and throughout the South.  What's always bothered me is how many well-meaning and progressive Christians I've met don't seem to have a problem with Jews for Jesus.

    But the bottom line is, it makes a mockery of both religions.  Judaism holds that the Messiah has not yet come (and some branches question if there even is a Messiah, or whether the Messiah refers to one person or to an era), so if you believe that Jesus is the Messiah, then you're a Christian, period.  Saying you're not is dishonest and misleading to both Jews and Christians.

    Rocky Top will always be home sweet home to me, but it will NOT always be Republican.

    by GoldnI on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 02:53:05 PM PDT

    •  Who's a Jew, II (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      Unfortunately for lots of people who were murdered in death camps, Hitler defined "Jew" as a person whose mother or maternal grandmother was Jewish.  I wonder how "Jewish" the Jews for Jesus would be if, God forbid!, they were caught in another mass persecution of Jews.  

      In common parlance, though, somebody who believes that Jesus of Nazareth, son of Mary, shares aspects of divinity with the God of Abraham that are not available  to other human beings is probably not Jewish.  

      Dems in 2008: An embarassment of riches. Repubs in 2008: Embarassments.

      by Yamaneko2 on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 03:11:30 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  are you from Chattanooga? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      I remember the Jewish Messianic Center down on Bailey Avenue across from Tennessee Temple.  I remember a friend of mine discovering what it was, and being so indignant; I remember thinking, "What did you expect?" I always thought they were dishonest.

      Alabama isn't rich enough to be red.

      by highland girl on Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 03:18:19 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Those who join them (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    arielle, GoldnI, jimmyboyo

    good riddance!  

    Like the old joke goes, "better one of them should drop dead, then one of us."

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