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(From the diaries - MissLaura)

For six years we have been hearing about how Rudy Giuliani is the hero of the World Trade Center attacks for his role in just "showing up" with video cameras in tow near ground zero.  

The truth is, Rudy Giuliani failed to prepare the New York City Fire Department prior to September 11 for a potential calamity.  

Just as worst, he has subsequently exploited 9/11 to make tens of millions of dollars and build a base of support through the media for his presidential campaign.

In response, the real heroes of 9/11 - members of the International Association of Firefighters - have released a documentary, "Rudy Giuliani: Urban Legend" - which features active and retired fire fighters, fire officers and families speaking out about the Real Rudy Giuliani that the cameras missed.  

While the real heros of 9/11 were searching for their fallen bretheren, Mayor Giuliani along with Administration officials like Christine Todd Whitman, made sure the interests of their Wall Street donors were placed above those of the fallen heros:

Riches was one of 343 firefighters who died. His father spent every day sifting through the wreckage for bodies, eager for some sign of his son. In November, Giuliani ordered a halt to the work after the remains of 91 firefighters had been recovered.

"Giuliani told everybody the bodies were pulverised, but I was digging them up every day. It was grisly stuff, limbs, little bones - people were blown to bits - but the bodies were there," said Riches, 55.

The searchers refused to stop. An ugly clash between the firefighters and the New York police left 18 officers injured. Eventually Giuliani backed down and allowed the work to continue, but not before branding the firefighters’ actions as "sinful".

As late as March, clumps of victims - 13 here, five there, a couple more scattered around - were being found. One of them was Riches’ son.

London Times

Several months ago, the International Association of Firefighters held a town hall style forum where Presidential candidates from both parties gathered to talk to the assembled crowd.  Only one Presidential candidate was missing, and it was no accident.

In a letter explaining why the IAFF refused to invite Giuliani to their bipartisan town hall forum, union president Harold Schaitberger writes:

What Giuliani showed following 9/11 is a disgraceful lack of respect for the fallen and those brothers still searching for them. He valued the money and gold and wanted the [World Trade Center] site cleared before he left office at the end of 2001 more than he valued the lives and memories of those lost."  

You can see the web video at the website set up by the Firefighters at Rudy-UrbanLegend.  Like the swiftboaters who targeted John Kerry in 2004, the New York City firefighters intend on following Rudy's every step as he campaigns for the Presidency.  Unlike the swiftboaters, they will have the truth behind them.

Originally posted to Daily Kos on Thu Jul 12, 2007 at 11:41 AM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

  •  This is crucial (26+ / 0-)

    9/11 heroism and a perceived identification with first responders is at the heart of the Rudy myth, and therefore the Rudy candidacy.  When firefighters speak for themselves to dispel that myth, that wounds Rudy far worse than anything that Romney or McCain could say.

    Well said! Thanks, UserName! n/t

    by Jake McIntyre on Thu Jul 12, 2007 at 06:51:40 AM PDT

  •  Wow! (13+ / 0-)

    This is incredibly sad what happened to the firefighters. I hope Rudy gets debunked as America's Mayor. He did a lousy job on this issue. His campaign is a dishonest one.

    Better the occasional faults of a party living in the spirit of charity than the consistent omissions of a party frozen in the ice of its own indifference-JFK

    by vcmvo2 on Thu Jul 12, 2007 at 06:52:08 AM PDT

  •  We'll see how the corporate media treats their (11+ / 0-)

    message.  See, the lying swifts were PROMOTED by a complicit media.

    In fact, when John Kerry called the swifts out and told Bush to stop hiding behind them and come out and DEBATE their services at the time, the corporate media wouldn't even REPORT that Kerry's counter to them and challenge to Bush even happened let alone give the speech the airtime and coverage it deserved.


    Because Kerry gave the speech to the August 2004 Firefighters' Convention as the endorsed candidate.  Coverage that normally would have been given wall to wall coverage but for some mysterious reason NO NEWS NETWORK showed up to cover this particular speech.

    Now the corpmedia has successfully covered for their COMPLICITY by claiming that Kerry never countered the swifts - and too many Democrats have joined them in pushing that lie.


    On Aug. 19, 2004 Kerry himself responded directly in a speech to the International Association of Firefighters' Convention in Boston. (from prepared remarks)

    ...And more than thirty years ago, I learned an important lesson—when you're under attack, the best thing to do is turn your boat into the attacker. That's what I intend to do today.

    Over the last week or so, a group called Swift Boat Veterans for Truth has been attacking me. Of course, this group isn’t interested in the truth – and they're not telling the truth. They didn't even exist until I won the nomination for president.

    But here's what you really need to know about them. They're funded by hundreds of thousands of dollars from a Republican contributor out of Texas. They're a front for the Bush campaign. And the fact that the President won't denounce what they’re up to tells you everything you need to know—he wants them to do his dirty work.

    Thirty years ago, official Navy reports documented my service in Vietnam and awarded me the Silver Star, the Bronze Star and three Purple Hearts. Thirty years ago, this was the plain truth. It still is. And I still carry the shrapnel in my leg from a wound in Vietnam.

    As firefighters you risk your lives everyday. You know what it’s like to see the truth in the moment. You're proud of what you’ve done—and so am I.

    Of course, the President keeps telling people he would never question my service to our country. Instead, he watches as a Republican-funded attack group does just that. Well, if he wants to have a debate about our service in Vietnam, here is my answer: "Bring it on."

    I'm not going to let anyone question my commitment to defending America—then, now, or ever. And I'm not going to let anyone attack the sacrifice and courage of the men who saw battle with me.

    And let me make this commitment today: their lies about my record will not stop me from fighting for jobs, health care, and our security – the issues that really matter to the American people...


    Kerry: Bush lets attack ads do 'dirty work'
    McClellan points out criticism by anti-Bush group
    Friday, August 20, 2004 Posted: 2:37 PM EDT (1837 GMT)
    BOSTON, Massachusetts (CNN) -- Democratic presidential nominee John Kerry accused President Bush on Thursday of letting front groups "do his dirty work" in questioning his military service during the Vietnam War.

    "The president keeps telling people he would never question my service to our country. Instead, he watches as a Republican-funded attack group does just that," Kerry told a firefighters' union conference in his hometown of Boston.

    "Well, if he wants to have a debate about our service in Vietnam, here is my answer: Bring it on."

    (August 19, 2004 -- 01:26 PM EDT)

    WELL, IT SEEMS there wasn't something in the air.

    I didn't know the Kerry campaign was finally going to return fire today over this Swift Boat nonsense. But this morning, in a speech to the International Association of Fire Fighters in Boston, he responded squarely to the attacks. You can see complete text of the speech and the new response-ad they're running. But the key point is that he aimed his remarks at precisely the right target ...

    Over the last week or so, a group called Swift Boat Veterans for Truth has been attacking me. Of course, this group isn?t interested in the truth ? and they?re not telling the truth. They didn?t even exist until I won the nomination for president.

    This is a good thing -- and not simply because Kerry has to respond to the president's surrogates who are trying (and, to an extent, succeeding) in damaging his candidacy with scurrilous and discredited attacks.

    There is a meta-debate going on here, one that I'm not sure even the practitioners fully articulate to themselves and one that I'm painfully aware the victims don't fully understand.

    Let's call it the Republicans' Bitch-Slap theory of electoral politics.

    It goes something like this.

    On one level, of course, the aim behind these attacks is to cast suspicion upon Kerry's military service record and label him a liar. But that's only part of what's going on.

    Consider for a moment what the big game is here. This is a battle between two candidates to demonstrate toughness on national security. Toughness is a unitary quality, really -- a personal, characterological quality rather than one rooted in policy or divisible in any real way. So both sides are trying to prove to undecided voters either that they're tougher than the other guy or at least tough enough for the job.


    This meta-message behind the president's attacks on Kerry's war record is more consequential than many believe. So hitting back hard was critical on many levels.


    Altercation Book Club: Lapdogs by Eric Boehlert
    Relatively early on in the August coverage of the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth story, ABC's Nightline devoted an entire episode to the allegations and reported, "The Kerry campaign calls the charges wrong, offensive and politically motivated. And points to Naval records that seemingly contradict the charges." (Emphasis added.) Seemingly? A more accurate phrasing would have been that Navy records "completely" or "thoroughly" contradicted the Swifty. In late August, CNN's scrawl across the bottom of the screen read, "Several Vietnam veterans are backing Kerry's version of events." Again, a more factual phrasing would have been "Crewmembers have always backed Kerry's version of events." But that would have meant not only having to stand up a well-funded Republican campaign attack machine, but also casting doubt on television news' hottest political story of the summer.

    When the discussion did occasionally turn to the facts behind the Swift Boat allegations, reporters and pundits seemed too spooked to address the obvious—that the charges made no sense and there was little credible evidence to support them.. Substituting as host of "Meet the Press," Andrea Mitchell on Aug. 15 pressed Boston Globe reporter Anne Kornblut about the facts surrounding Kerry's combat service: "Well, Anne, you've covered him for many years, John Kerry. What is the truth of his record?" Instead of mentioning some of the glaring inconsistencies in the Swifties' allegation, such as George Elliott and Adrian Lonsdale 's embarrassing flip-flops, Kornblut ducked the question, suggesting the truth was "subjective": "The truth of his record, the criticism that's coming from the Swift Boat ads, is that he betrayed his fellow veterans. Well, that's a subjective question, that he came back from the war and then protested it. So, I mean, that is truly something that's subjective." Ten days later Kornblut scored a sit-down interview with O'Neill. In her 1,200-word story she politely declined to press O'Neill about a single factual inconsistency surrounding the Swifties' allegations, thereby keeping her Globe readers in the dark about the Swift Boat farce. (It was not until Bush was safely re-elected that that Kornblut, appearing on MSNBC, conceded the Swift Boast ads were clearly inaccurate.)

    Hosting an Aug. 28 discussion on CNBC with Newsweek's Jon Meacham and Time's Jay Carney, NBC's Tim Russert finally, after weeks of overheated Swifty coverage, got around to asking the pertinent question: "Based on everything you have heard, seen, reported, in terms of the actual charges, the content of the book, is there any validity to any of it?" Carney conceded the charges did not have any validity, but did it oh, so gently: "I think it's hard to say that any one of them is by any standard that we measure these things has been substantiated." Apparently Carney forgot to pass the word along to editors at Time magazine, which is read by significantly more news consumers than Russert's weekly cable chat show on CNBC. Because it wasn't until its Sept. 20 2004 issue, well after the Swift Boat controversy had peaked, that the Time news team managed enough courage to tentatively announce the charges levied against Kerry and his combat service were "reckless and unfair." (Better late than never; Time's competitor Newsweek waited until after the election to report the Swift Boat charges were "misleading," but "very effective.") But even then, Time didn't hold the Swifties responsible for their "reckless and unfair" charges. Instead, Time celebrated them. Typing up an election postscript in November, Time toasted the Swift Boat's O'Neill as one of the campaign's "Winners," while remaining dutifully silent about the group's fraudulent charges.

    That kind of Beltway media group self-censorship was evident throughout the Swift Boat story, as the perimeters of acceptable reporting were quickly established. Witness the MSM reaction to Wayne Langhofer, Jim Russell and Robert Lambert. All three men served with Kerry in Vietnam and all three men were witnesses to the disputed March 13, 1969 event in which Kerry rescued Green Beret Jim Rassmann, winning a Bronze Star and his third Purple Heart. The Swifties, after 35 years of silence, insisted Kerry did nothing special that day, and that he certainly did not come under enemy fire when he plucked Rassmann out of the drink. Therefore, Kerry did not deserve his honors.

    It's true every person on Kerry's boat, along with the thankful Rassmann, insisted they were under fire, and so did the official Navy citation for Kerry's Bronze Star. Still, Swifties held to their unlikely story, and the press pretended to be confused about the stand-off. Then during the last week in August three more eyewitnesses, all backing the Navy's version of events that there had been hostile gun fire, stepped forward. They were Langhofer, Russell and Lambert.

    Russell wrote an indignant letter to his local Telluride Daily Planet to dispute the Swifties' claim: "Forever pictured in my mind since that day over 30 years ago John Kerry bending over his boat picking up one of the rangers that we were ferrying from out of the water. All the time we were taking small arms fire from the beach; although because of our fusillade into the jungle, I don't think it was very accurate, thank God. Anyone who doesn't think that we were being fired upon must have been on a different river."

    The number of times Russell was subsequently mentioned on CNN: 1. On Fox News: 1. MSNBC: 0. ABC: 1. On CBS: 0. On NBC: 0.

    Like Russell, Langhofer also remembered strong enemy gunfire that day. An Aug. 22 article in the Washington Post laid out the details: "Until now, eyewitness evidence supporting Kerry's version had come only from his own crewmen. But yesterday, The Post independently contacted a participant who has not spoken out so far in favor of either camp who remembers coming under enemy fire. "There was a lot of firing going on, and it came from both sides of the river," said Wayne D. Langhofer, who manned a machine gun aboard PCF-43, the boat that was directly behind Kerry’s. Langhofer said he distinctly remembered the "clack, clack, clack" of enemy AK-47s, as well as muzzle flashes from the riverbanks." (For some strange reason the Post buried its Langhofer scoop in the 50th paragraph of the story.)

    The number of times Langhofer was subsequently mentioned on CNN: 0. On Fox News: 0. On MSNBC: 0. On ABC: 0. CBS: 0. NBC: 0.

    As for Lambert, The Nation magazine uncovered the official citation for the Bronze Medal he won that same day and it too reported the flotilla of five U.S. boats "came under small-arms and automatic weapons fire from the river banks."

    The number of times Lambert was mentioned on. On Fox News: 1. On CNN: 0. On MSNBC: 0. ABC: 1 On CBS: 0. On NBC: 0.

    Additionally, the Washington Post's Michael Dobbs, who served as the paper's point person on the Swifty scandal, was asked during an Aug. 30, 2004, online chat with readers why the paper hadn't reported more aggressively on the public statements of Langhofer, Russell and Lambert. Dobbs insisted, "I hope to return to this subject at some point to update readers." But he never did. Post readers, who were deluged with Swifty reporting, received just the sketchiest of facts about Langhofer, Russell and Lambert.

    If that doesn't represent a concerted effort by the press to look the other way, than what does?

    •  Nice commentary, but can you use (6+ / 0-)

      blockquotes next time so it's a little more reader friendly? I hate telling someone else how to post, but it would help distinguish your comments from the articles you cite. :)

    •  First step is to banish swiftboat/firefighter (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      zdefender, homoaffectional

      being in one sentence.  I can't BELIEVE this was even said on DailyKos!!!!!  These two phenomenons are completely different.  Kerry SAVED lives in Vietnam and then was lied about by right wingers.  Guiliani gave a speech, and then later claimed to be THE HERO of 9/11, when the real heroes were the firefighters, policeman, and rescue workers, not to mention the passengers on United 93.

      This characterization is just dead wrong.  It needs to be stopped.

    •  kerry didn't respond forcefully enough (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      esquimaux, homoaffectional

      a couple of speeches does not counter an all out media blitz.

      Nothing can destroy a government more quickly than its failure to observe its own laws, or worse, its disregard of the charter of its own existence.

      by zdefender on Thu Jul 12, 2007 at 02:15:57 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Kerry did more than he should have had to - (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        Bush didn't have to lift a finger to help himself EVER because he had big name GOPs showing up every night to defend him more forcefully with lies while no big name Dems could be bothered to show up to counter them and defend Kerry with the truth.

        Kerry defended himself EVERY STEP OF THE WAY - the corporate media made SURE it would never be enough.

        And further - Kerry won.  Terry McAuliffe fucked over the entire party by refusing to counter all the election fraud we learned about after the 2000 hearings.

  •  and not to forget, he also... (16+ / 0-)

    Blocked funding for a standardized emergency radio network in NYC, that would link all the first-responders together on one network, precisely to coordinate major disaster operations.

    Built his major disaster coordination center in one of the WTC buildings, after the original terrorist truck bomb some years previous.  As in, put it right on a known target.  Thus, the center was utterly useless on 9/11, adding to the chaos.

    And here's something new for you

    Had DSNY (Department of Sanitation) handle the task of trucking all the rubble to the Fish Kills landfill site where it was effectively out of sight & out of mind.  This work also exposed DSNY workers to the same toxic crap that the other first responders were exposed to.  DSNY workers also worked nonstop shifts to clean the foot or so thick layer of toxic crap off the streets (it looked like a blizzard) to make the affected area passable and safe, and were exposed to it in that context as well.  

    For all that, the DSNY workers received zero credit, zero mention, and probably are presently suffering the ill health effects of exposure to that stuff.  I suspect that the conspicuous absence of public thanks to those workers had something to do with not wanting any of them to be around to be asked questions about what was in all that rubble they were handling.  Or about he health effects they probably suffered from exposure to all the stuff they were cleaning up.  

    There is a serious story to be investigated here, someone needs to take it up and start interviewing DSNY workers about this stuff.  Sooner the better, one never knows what it might lead to.  

  •  What I found more interesting (12+ / 0-)

    was the why of the search being stopped.
    Supposedly the Firefighters found over $200 mil in gold. That's when the search shifted from bodies to gold.something twisted about that.

  •  Ouch!~ (8+ / 0-)

    Rudy's done for.  Swiftboated!

    It was very satisfying to see this and all the play it got with the scandalmongers on MSM.  I live in NYC--Rudy's absolutely hated here and I was wondering when the rest of the nations would have to learn what a bastard he is.

    If this doesn't do it there's loads more scandals just waiting to be pulled out on the national stage.  (Go ahead Republican primary voters--I dare you to choose him--and see what happens.  From sex scandals, ties with the mafia, the thuggish police chiefs he appointed and then covered for, or for his religious confusion--Umm, Rudy, you can't call yourself Catholic if you've been divorced (twice) without an annulment sorry--thems' the Popes rules...

  •  (Vid) Rudy's 9/11 Failures of Leadership (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    PaulVA, BobOak, sbdenmon, Hannibal, edsbrooklyn

    ..Exposed by NY Fire Fighters

    "A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves."--Edward R. Murrow

    by Scarce on Thu Jul 12, 2007 at 11:39:01 AM PDT

  •  I was on a local message board in 2004, (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    PaulVA, NYFM, edsbrooklyn, homoaffectional

    when the firefighters and first responders unions endorsed Kerry. The local wingnuts had the nerve to dismiss their criticisms of Bush as political.

    Three years later, those same type of deflections of the truth will not be accepted by the average American. It's just another brick in the wall of incompetence, corruption and lies told by the Bush administration and their supporters.

  •  Bravo, Firefighters! (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    PaulVA, BobOak, Tigana, Steve WFP, edsbrooklyn

    And thank you, PaulVA, for this great diary.

    1-20-09 The Darkness Ends "Where cruelty exists, law does not." ~ Alberto Mora.

    by noweasels on Thu Jul 12, 2007 at 11:42:46 AM PDT

  •  As a Democrat (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mainely49, vioviv, PaulVA, Phil S 33, Hannibal

    I have mixed feelings about this.  I think we want Rudy to be their nominee because he will not only lose (they all will lose if nominated) but he will depress the base so much that we will pick up lots and lots of Congressional seats.  However, as an American I say this fucking prick deserves to be hung out to dry.  

    "Unrestricted immigration is a dangerous thing -- look at what happened to the Iroquois." Garrison Kellor

    by SpiderStumbled22 on Thu Jul 12, 2007 at 11:43:48 AM PDT

    •  Yes - I just wrote a totally redudant post below (0+ / 0-)

      I 1000% agree.  Rudy is the worst of the bunch, even over Romney.  He's the best Republican candidate for us to run against.

      Let's save it for the campaign, not the primaries!

      •  Romney would be easier to beat (0+ / 0-)

        He has even less foreign policy experience than Obama......

        BUT, then again, Rudy also has zero foreign policy experience.

      •  Perhaps. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        PaulVA, edsbrooklyn, homoaffectional

        But I wouldn't understimate Rudy, who is a hundred times shrewder than bush, or overestimate the American people. After all, we have an AWOL, ex-drunk, blow-fiend, failed business man and all-around moron currently serving his second term in the White House.

      •  Again, I 100% disagree... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        Rudy will be the MOST DIFFICULT of them all for us to beat, even more so than Thompson.  I'm wondering why on earth people on Kos can't see that...  if Hillary is the nominee, how many people do you think will actually pick her over "pro-choice" (not realy), "pro-gay" (not really) Ghoul-iani?

        •  nah (0+ / 0-)

          Though the hypocrisy of the modern GOP should never be misunderestimated, Guliani has too many deal killers whereas Bush merely had a record of mediocrity in government.

          •  Once again, let's hope that... (0+ / 0-)

            ... Giuliani will NOT be the nominee, so we don't have to have your prediction tested by 8 more years of extreme reich wing Supreme Court justices in the veign of Scalito replacing the few liberal justices we have left.

            I, personally, refuse to put even a modicum faith in your statement about "deal killers".  If you're wrong, I will get ZERO satisfaction in telling you "I told you so".  I've already had that as the only consolation when I shook my head every time someone complacently declared that Bush would not get another term in the WH (however he managed to do it; I know it wasn't because he was reelected any more than he was the first time).  And I will not hesitate to simply say "you're wrong", and that the GOP will readily cast aside any "deal killers" -- they care about only one thing -- POWER.  Learn that now instead of kicking yourself later for your complacency.

    •  Don't be so complacent... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      ... yes, all the rest will lose, but Giuliani is the one that actually has a chance to squeak out a win.

      So, no, don't include me in the "we" that wants Rudy to be their nominee.  He's the only one I fear, in fact.

  •  A highly recommended video presentation (3+ / 0-)

    Rudy will doubtless find some firefighters or administrators to sign his praises, but this comes across as a determined group who are no longer buying his b.s. about being "America's Mayor".  Giuliani was politically washed up just before 9/11 and being hounded by the press for what a sleazebag he proved to be.  It was widely reported that Giuliani sought to install his mistress in the Mayoral mansion, while leaving his wife in another wing.  What a take charge kind of guy!

    What a complete jerk.  New Yorkers knew what a grandstanding moron he was but Rudy has done an incredible job of profiting from a tragedy.  If that was a requirement for high office he'd be a shoe-in.  But it is not.  Intelligent administration is needed.  He can't do it.

  •  Small cricism---'Rudy Guiliani, Urban Legend' (2+ / 0-)

    is a really piss-poor title for this website, since it's intended irony is lost in print.

    That title makes it look for all the world like a hagiography site, not one that is trying to tell the raw unvarnished truth about Rudy.

    Does anyone have any connections with the firefighters group?

  •  A minor point (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    MadRuth, NYFM, homoaffectional

    but I'd resist your comparison of the firefighters to the swiftboaters.  While you correctly acknowledge the facts on the firefighters' side; it still draws them into that same arena perception-wise.  The swiftboat campaign were contemptuous assholes; don't draw any parallels there.  Otherwise, right on.

  •  Fab, but let's wait until Rudy is the nominee!!! (0+ / 0-)

    I mean, don't we want whomever our Dem nominee is to run against this guy?

    Please, can't we put a moratorium on swiftboating Rudy until the actual presidential race is underway!  Let the braindead Repubs nominate this guy!!!

    •  NO, DON'T LET the braindead Repubs nominate... (0+ / 0-)

      ... this guy... frankly, it's the people on the Dem side of the aisle that want Rudy to be the nominee that strike me as (sorry, but I have to say it) braindead...

      •  why (0+ / 0-)

        none of the other GOP candidates have called for gun control and publicly financed abortions....

        •  So...? (0+ / 0-)

          That doesn't mean he'll actually do it.

          Giuliani's "moderate" image is just that -- "image".  Wait until he actually becomes president to see how his actions bely the statements he makes to try to win over Independents, "moderates" and even a few sad Democrats (how does someone like Giuliani win a city as overwhelmingly Dem as NYC?  By pretending to be a certain way as mayor New York, and then turning to his true self as president).

          And make no mistake -- Republican voters understand that they are and always will be voting for the lesser of two evils.  They will take whatever they can get, including the promise of being able to replace the few remaining liberal justices on the Supreme Court with more Scalitos.

          Do you want to really take the chance that you're wrong, and have another young justice to replace the aging liberal justices.  Do you REALLY want to stake the next 40 years of more SCOTUS decisions like the recent reversal of the Brown decision and the upholding of the late term abortion ban on the current "flip"ping that will surely lead to "flop"ping as soon as Rudy thinks he can get away with it?

          I can assure you that Rudy will win far more independents w/his pretense at being "moderate" than he'll lose power-hungry, power-desperate Republican voters, especially if it's Hillary he's up against.

          Again, I feel very very sad, Uberbah, if people like you even here on Kos, don't wake up and see the danger that Rudy represents to the country, and continue to allow yourselves to be complacent because you think Rudy will not be able to get enough of a coalition of just enough Republican registered, Republican base, independent, and a smattering of Democrats (not to mention the type of people who fell for Bush's strong national security bullshit) w/the way he's run his campaign.

          I say again... being able to say "I told you so" will simply NOT be worth it, so PLEASE WAKE UP NOW!!!

  •  Tweety VS Firefighter's Union President (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    PaulVA, Hannibal
  •  Great post, one nitpick (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    "just as worst"?


  •  This is very true. I just don't get how people (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Hannibal, homoaffectional, Rat hater

    can be misled by the media when history unfolds right before your very eyes.  I didn't see any act of heroism or leadership by Giuliani--in fact, his leadership on 9/11 seems very opportunistic and far short of what was required---yet, the media goes along w/ the farce and paints him as a leader and somehow even a hero simply for the fact of being mayor when it happened.  It makes no sense whatsoever.  

    It's similar to how Bush was painted as a great leader following 9/11.  The truth of the matter is that both Giuliani and Bush FAILED.  Had they been great leaders, 9/11 probably would not have happened.  They are leeches who profited off of the deaths of Americans, and they are STILL profiting and Americans are STILL dying.  It's beyond appalling.

    Give time, money, and support ONLY to those candidates who vote to END THE OCCUPATION!!!

    by dnn on Thu Jul 12, 2007 at 11:49:05 AM PDT

  •  Swiftboaters! (5+ / 0-)

    What's the point of bringing up the bastards who slandered and libeled John Kerry. By doing this you reenforce and spread the established media's comparison of the firefighters to the lying bastards who the press let get away with murder in their attacks on Kerry. We have to remove ourselves from the aura of the established press, distance ourselves from their noxious indifference to definition and meaning or we're just going to end up with another repugnant president in 2008: Giuliani for instance. It is completely counterproductive in every way to ever repeat any bit of sneaky, undercover anti-Democratic play of words in the media. None of it!

  •  Thank you (9+ / 0-)

    MissLaura for promoting this diary and I want to apologize to everyone for the poor spelling.  My 2 week old has collic and I'm not getting much sleep.

    Pass the Employee Free Choice Act!

    by PaulVA on Thu Jul 12, 2007 at 11:52:42 AM PDT

  •  never let opportunity pass (4+ / 0-)

    ... to remind folk that, on security, Rudy made the decision to locate the NYC disaster command and control center at 7WTC, despite being severely warned ... gotta be a way to work it in there

    it's about biconceptualism ... Obama08

    by wystler on Thu Jul 12, 2007 at 11:54:30 AM PDT

  •  Rise Above (0+ / 0-)

    Three years ago we were all up in arms about swift boat veterans and now, when the parties are reversed, you all praise the same kind of attacks? Now, granted, what was done to Kerry, a war VETERAN, was much worse but this is still in the same vein. And many of you are pursuing this with the same vitriol that marked the mess in 2004. How about we just beat Rudy on the issues, I think that should be easy enough. I'm sick of us failing to rise above.

    bears down for the "you're naive" comments

    •  Watch the video. Do some research. (7+ / 0-)

      The claims the firefighters (and their survivors) make in this video are demonstrably supported.

      And this topic IS absolutely relevant, because Rudy has made his response to the 9/11 attack the centerpiece of his campaign.

      It's irresponsible NOT to examine Rudy's claims of heroic decisiveness on 9/11--and his mayoral decisions before the attack, as well as ones he made in the aftermath.

      This video begins that examination, and, at the very least, provides a momentary corrective to the torrent of 9/11 hagiographic cheerleading unreflectiveness fogging up Rudy's claims to fame.

      Sunlight: it's the new Lysol.

    •  What the firefighters are doing (4+ / 0-)

      Is not swiftboating.  Rudy Giuliani had them using analog walkie talkies which failed inside the WTC and probably cost the lives of 300 NYC firefighters.

      Meanwhile, he paraded himself shamelessly in front of the media as some sort of hero because he was "Johnny on the spot."

      The reference to the swiftboaters is only in that there is a contrast between the truth behind the firefighters and the b.s. behind the swiftboaters.

      Pass the Employee Free Choice Act!

      by PaulVA on Thu Jul 12, 2007 at 12:13:39 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  swities lied, evrey part of this is true (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      quite a difference to me at least.

      It was a bright cold day in April, and the clocks were striking thirteen. George Orwell, "1984", first sentence

      by tony the American Mutt on Thu Jul 12, 2007 at 12:49:49 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Recommended (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    MKS, PaulVA, Phil S 33, BobOak, homoaffectional

    I have been very disturbed to see how the myth of Giuliani's 9/11 "heroism" developed over time from, well, basically nothing, into this whole gigantic thing.

    Middle Class Mother-F!cking Warrior

    by bink on Thu Jul 12, 2007 at 11:55:28 AM PDT

  •  Unlike the Swiftboaters ... (4+ / 0-)

    The firefighters have substance to their claims ... and have real documentation to back them up.

    That is a dangerous line and I wish the diary would be changed -- the firefighters are not the swiftboaters. Such a link demeans the firefighters.

  •  Looks like Romney shall be the last man standing (3+ / 0-)

    No way Giuliani survives, at least if Thompson and Romney jump on this bandwagon. And I do not see Fred Thompson (abortion lobbyist) as a serious threat.

    McCain's campaign is busy lawn-darting into the pavement and that leaves Mitt Romney.

    •  Let's hope... (0+ / 0-)

      ... if Romney is the GOP nominee, we needn't even bother with a general election -- hell, Mike Gravel would win it a landslide (not that he'll ever be the nominee).

      ... but I choose not to be complacent, until Giuliani's candidacy dies on "Tsunami Tuesday" or whatever they're calling that super duper primary day that's going to take place in early February '08.

      I personally just want to see if the other GOP candidates will truly disregard the "11th commandment" in their (normally reserved for Dems) attempts to climb to the top and pile on Giuliani, who has been the front runner since five or six GOP presidential hopefuls had declared their intention to seek the nomination.

  •  glad to see this on the front page n/t (5+ / 0-)

    Politics is like driving. To go backward, put it in R. To go forward, put it in D.

    by TrueBlueMajority on Thu Jul 12, 2007 at 12:02:53 PM PDT

  •  Rudy is no hero (4+ / 0-)

    He was truly disliked by the time September 11 happened, and would have ended his mayoralty without distinction, given the various scandals associated with it (Kerik, Abner Louima/Patrick Dorismond/Amadou Diallo, his treatment of his wife, his vindictiveness, threatening to evict the Brooklyn Museum, and countless other events).

    Plus he wanted to extend his second term in order to preside over the transition after September 11.  And what's worse, he complied with Bush's edict that downtown reopen as soon as possible, subjecting thousands of people to the short and long-term effects of one of the worst environmental nightmares ever visited upon us.  Burning fuel oil, asbestos, dioxin -- the first responders are just getting sick first.  Those of us who live here will get sick too, I'm convinced of it.

    You got this right, PaulVA:

    Unlike the swiftboaters, they will have the truth behind them.

    •  I hope no one thinks (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      PaulVA, jamesmcyang, homoaffectional

      I'm diminishing the importance of the firefighters' role and the validity of their anger by this comment above:

      the first responders are just getting sick first

      Within a mile of my house, there are 4 firehouses that lost 35 men, with one losing 12. Along with some friends, I spent several weeks cooking and delivering meals for these houses. All the first responders were heroic beyond measure, and without their courage and quick thinking, I believe thousands more people would have perished.

      Just thought I needed to make that clear.

  •  A record to be ashamed of (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    PaulVA, edsbrooklyn, homoaffectional

    I did not have anyone from the NYFD lost at the World Trade Center.  However, as an NYPD daughter, I saw too often the faces of the men and women I grew up with on Long Island and in NJ.

    I will never forget the face of Kevin Coughlin as he lead the Emerald Society band into the city, and at many funerals.

    This is incredibly important information, and can be a powerful tool in keeping this man out of any office.  We need to find a way to get this out to those who still consider RG "America's Mayor" - I fume every time I hear that.

    Thank you for sharing this information and video.


    How many legs does a dog have if you call the tail a leg? Four; calling a tail a leg doesn't make it a leg. (Abraham Lincoln)

    by Ninepatch on Thu Jul 12, 2007 at 12:03:29 PM PDT

  •  This video is absolutely devestating. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    PaulVA, edsbrooklyn, homoaffectional

    IMO, it's an absolute must see.  It's very revealing about how 9/11 was used for political purposes by Guiliani (and others in the Republican Party, like Bush).

    I would like to see this Republican insult stopped.  It's horrific that these people are willing to use attacks against the United States for political gain.  They have no shame.

  •  'Heck-of-a-job Rudy'. Shoe fits, heels accepted. (2+ / 0-)

    somedays I feel older than others..........

    by exMnLiberal on Thu Jul 12, 2007 at 12:07:47 PM PDT

  •  Rudy Giuliani...full blown (3+ / 0-)

    psychopath.  There's a reason he trails Hillary in NY Prez polls bigtime.  People who realy know him, know he's off his rocker.  He's not a national speaker, doesn't even speak with his children and his wife can't even remember how many times she has been married.  A paper tiger that doesn't have legs.

    I'm a Republican. All my boys are Republicans.-Al Capone

    by Travis Bickle on Thu Jul 12, 2007 at 12:08:59 PM PDT

    •  Does he *REALLY* trail Hillary... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      in NY Prez polls "bigtime"?   I would only be comforted if that wasn't a recent development, and BTW, by just how much does he trail Hillary...?    2 points, or 20 points?

      And is this consistent on every single polling service across the board?  Or do some show them virtually tied?  What about the state of New Jersey?  Does Giuliani trail Hillary in that state, as well?

      •  Yeah he does and (0+ / 0-)

        if you talk to most New Yorkers they'll tell you that he won't even come close to getting the nomination.  Especially now that his Southern coordinator is walking around with a load in his pants.

        I'm a Republican. All my boys are Republicans.-Al Capone

        by Travis Bickle on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 12:54:55 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Is it swiftboating if the accusations are true? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    Nice to see the shoe on the other foot, so to speak.  You reap what you sow.

    •  How strong are these accusations (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      First accusation...that he got them crappy radios. Could be true although it could be complex. There could be others to blame for this.

      Second accusation...that he was an idiot for placing the Emergency center at WTC7. Probably true.

      Third accusation...that he stopped the search for dead firefighters. Certainly true, but he could argue that his motives were good in that regard. Actually in hindsight there was significant health risk to the searchers and it was probably good to stop.

      Seems quite possible none of these will have big impact on the voters. Also many New Yorkers do feel that Guiliani was "there" to support NY and take decisive action.

      •  There was a health risk (6+ / 0-)

        Because he did not supply them and the other first responders with the proper respirators and safety equipment.  His priority was on opening up the area around the WTC for business, not anything else.

        It's the same reason Christi Todd Whitman told the inhabitants of the area around the WTC that the air was fine to breathe, when EPA tests had shown it was not - and many who listened to her and trusted her died or are dying of respiratory dieseases.

        Pass the Employee Free Choice Act!

        by PaulVA on Thu Jul 12, 2007 at 12:21:35 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  These are not accusations (5+ / 0-)

        They are facts.
        (1) The radios that FDNY were using that day were the same radios that were in use in 1993 when the WTC was attacked the first time. The FDNY radios were antiques even in 1993 and in the interim of the two attacks the Mayor's Office dragged its feet with excuses of cost and Guiliani's inability to get FDNY and NYPD to even talk to each other about cooperating at disaster scenes. This is all in the history books and was thoroughly rehashed in the 9/11 report.
        (2) The command center in the WTC7 was ill advised. Everyone from FEMA, FBI, ATF and the city's own OEM said it was the worst cite possible and advised to  put the center in Brooklyn or Queens. Rudy insisted,stomped his feet and everyone caved. Stupid. You bet. WTC7 probably collapsed because of the massive amount of fuel stored under the building. How ingenious is that?
        (3) The reason for pulling Firefighters off the site was truly one of the lamest. It had nothing to do with cost, all of the firefighters at the site were volunteering their time. He wanted them out of there so his contractors could take over and get the site cleaned up faster. He needed them out of the way. And now, they are finding more and more remains in some pretty obvious places that should have been searched.

        Rudy could not have gotten elected dog catcher in NYC on 9/10/01. And after he tried to get his term of office extended and attempted to over-ride the city charter to run for a third term, his poplarity quickly when intothe East River and out to sea.

        "By the pricking of my thumbs, something wicked this way comes" Wm. Shakespeare, "Macbeth"

        by TheMomCat on Thu Jul 12, 2007 at 12:41:39 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  firefighters are pissed about the gold and silver (4+ / 0-)

    the same day that the $200+ million hoard was found, the search was stopped:

  •  This union endorsed Perry and DeWine (0+ / 0-)

    Their local in Cincy also endorsed Schmidt.
    The local (especially Toledo) in Ohio fought the nationals on the DeWine endorsement because of the work Sherrod did for years on behalf of all first responders.  

    Their work here is not about crashing the gate it's about revenge against Rudy and not only for 9/11 but it smacks of more, much more.

    So, sure, it's great that they're willing to go out there to follow Rudy around, but I don't see Rudy defeating Edwards, Obama or Clinton, hell, for that matter, Biden, Richardson or Dodd.  It's just seems this is not money well spent.  Well, unless the main desire is to "get back" at Rudy, which I have no problem with at all.

    •  Meanwhile... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      peace voter, PaulVA

      ... I fear VERY MUCH that Rudy would defeat Biden, Richardson, and Dodd, and I especially fear a contest between Ghouliani & Hillary, in many bluish states, in fact.

      Sorry, I think it is money well spent, if it helps bring him down in the head-to-head polls against various Democratic candidates.

      He is far more formidable than many on Kos and elsewhere are saying, and I'm really scared just how many on here underestimate this scumbag.

      I almost feel like I'm watching reruns of the 2004 race.

      •  you keep saying that (0+ / 0-)

        what's your basis for fearing Rudy?  He's got one thing and one thing only: his "America's Mayor" image, and that's a house of cards.

        •  He's got *MUCH* more than that... (0+ / 0-)

          ... a Republican friendly media, for starters.

          Or hadn't you noticed?

          If it wasn't for the media, Bush would not currently still be in the White House, causing as much damage as possible as his "lame duck" self.

          I don't know just how much it's going to take for so many people who post on here to realize is that the media tends to stack the deck in favor of Republicans.  Do you really want to see the truth AFTER a Republican appoints another Supreme Court justice?

          Please... if you want to believe that Rudy will be easy to beat, go on ahead, if you want.  All I ask is that you stop lulling people into complacency.  We need people to remain as vigilant as possible in order to make sure the next occupant of the WH is a Dem.

  •  glad PaulVA front paged (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    PaulVA, homoaffectional

    and this one is incredibly damning and shows the spin, the labeling without substance.

    PaulVA is one of my favorite labor bloggers.

    by BobOak on Thu Jul 12, 2007 at 12:57:33 PM PDT

  •  I hope the rest of the US learns (4+ / 0-)

    what we New Yorkers, not just New York City dwellers, already know: that Rudy is unfit to hold any office of any kind.

    You must be the change you wish to see in the world. - Gandhi

    by Gentle Giant on Thu Jul 12, 2007 at 01:15:59 PM PDT

  •  People who run on emotions only (0+ / 0-)

    Sorry, from what I have read I don't automatically agree on THIS issue being what it is made out to be.

    There was a national need to show ourselves and the world that we could cope practically with something like this (as opposed to Katrina). There could be a case for still today be sifting through those remains, and I believe some have been found more recently, but at some point one has to move on with life, not to mention our economy which doesn't seem important to some people here.

    Perhaps RG didn't handle that emotional issue very well, I don't know, but what I read of the firemen's approach strikes me as entirely political in nature exploiting an emotional issue. I see nothing commendable there either.

    •  I'm not sure about 'commendable'... (0+ / 0-)

      ... I just want to know if it will be effective.  If you say it won't be effective, then I'm simply moving onto the next thing that will be.

      Giuliani is the only GOP candidate that I fear will make it into the general election.  The rest of them are already toast.

      •  .....moving onto the next thing that will be. (0+ / 0-)

        So you are also one of those who could care less about principles, as long as it concerns your actions, rather than those you don't want to vote for.

        If that is the case, give me one reason you are not just a mirror image of the other side.

        •  First of all... (0+ / 0-)

          ... I tend to disagree with you about what the firefighters are doing.

          Secondly, if you want me to answer your question at the very end in some hypothetical scenario, I will.  Get back to me.  I'm not going to concede that I'm backing the tactics of "the other side" because you've read people mistakenly use the word "swiftboating" applied to this case.  Tell me why you think that firefighters exposing Giuliani for what he really is aside from whether or not they are overly 'commendable' are truly the kind of disgusting, smear type of attack that the SB Bitterans Against Truth launched... really, convince me.  I'm not convinced so far.

  •  This "exposing" might not be what we think.. (0+ / 0-)

    Three years ago we were all up in arms about swift boat veterans and now, when the parties are reversed, you all praise the same kind of attacks? Now, granted, what was done to Kerry, a war VETERAN, was much worse but this is still in the same vein. And many of you are pursuing this with the same vitriol that marked the mess in 2004. How about we just beat Rudy on the issues, I think that should be easy enough. I'm sick of us failing to rise above.

    I agree with you 200%.

    I do not like that site one bit! It comes out of nowhere, and it has all these unknown people engaging in a swiftboat of Giuliani. What for?

    There's no trusting who is behind it all at this point, and what the purpose of it is. Remember the republicans funded the swiftboat of Kerry, and who's to say they are not behind this one too?? they're all going on about what Rudy did in friggin' 1993, and bla blah..and we're left wondering what does it has to do with his presidency bid and the issues? and why now??

  •  Giuliani Is A 9/11 Hero To Those Who Need One... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    PaulVA, homoaffectional

    I Say The Firefighters And Police Are REAL HEROES.

    Giuliani, BushCo, LAME OPORTUNISTS.

  •  Don't try making me laugh Rudy, (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    A guy like rudy is calling out someone else for being "sinful"  laugh

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