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People... c'mon. Stop being so damned serious. Loosen up. It's only civilization at stake...

What strikes me about Mike Stark's stunt is this: we are a frustrated lot. We are about bursting at the seams, waiting for SOMEBODY to do something to stop BushCo.

I can't get no. no no no no satisFACTion.

dKos and other blogs are great at getting out information that makes you want to explode. Certainly, I am well informed. I am armed to the TEETH with lies, corruption, depravity... all sourced and verified. Yep, I'm all informed up and no place to go...

So please, give Mike a break, cause he only speaks for Mike. Give me a break. There are more important issues. And this is us... killing ourselves and saving the bad guys the trouble.

Scout Finch's diary hits the right notes... balanced, gentle. As I commented to her, what i loved about her diary is it that makes us hold up our emotional feel-good response to Mike's action and ask our common-sense selves: is this the BEST way to handle this? i don't think it was TERRIBLE thing...  but certainly it was not a necessary thing

But then, i wonder, what else is left to us? Sometimes i think we do these things because we're frustrated and nothing seems to stop the bad stuff.

All I can say is that MOST Americans are waiting for us... begging us not TO turn them off or away... it's up to us, not the GOP. So let's not make this as big an issue, as say Ted Stevens or GonzoGate.

And we have to stop playing defense and worrying about being labeled. That's insane... we have the (most of the) truth on our side and, as i said in a comment last night, we just aren't sure how to wield it.

Mike, no more silly stunts would be good. But it's not the worst thing we've done to ourselves and it won't be the last. Let's move on.

And start pushing-the-fuck back at the people who deserve it.

Originally posted to pfiore8 on Tue Jul 31, 2007 at 10:08 AM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Tips/flames. . . (27+ / 0-)

    "Well we don't rent pigs and I figure it's better to say it right out front because a man that does like to rent pigs is... he's hard to stop" Gus McCrae

    by pfiore8 on Tue Jul 31, 2007 at 10:02:01 AM PDT

  •  I agree.... (10+ / 0-)

    Mike can do whatever Mike wants.  He didn't ask all 100,000 plus registered users if it was OK first, so I don't get how this hurts or helps anyone but Mike.

    Who gives a rat's ass what the troglodytes who still listen to O'Reilly think.  O Reilly made his point, it was stupid, and he was called on it.  The controversy is only helping O'Reilly get ratings at this point.  Hell, I watched the first 5 minutes of his show last night.

    Let's find something else to talk about.

    The meek shall inherit nothing. -F.Zappa

    by cometman on Tue Jul 31, 2007 at 10:06:36 AM PDT

  •  I didn't have a problem with it... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Catte Nappe, pfiore8

    ... until I learned the diarist was a reporter. As a reporter, I'd never do what he did, and I wouldn't expect anyone to tolerate it if I did.

    And from the comments I read, that's the problem most Kossacks had with the action. We can't be demanding a more responsible press on the one hand while tolerating these kinds of stunts on the other.

    Draft a challenger for Jim Inhofe! Draft Andrew Rice

    by droogie6655321 on Tue Jul 31, 2007 at 10:09:03 AM PDT

    •  i think he did this a private citizen, no? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Sychotic1, droogie6655321

      and if he did it as the press, then he's still doesn't represent us... but whatever paper/blog he works for that okayed the story.

      and then, yes, totally agree, we must talk about this as irresponsible but we don't need to be seen as disassociating ourselves from it... since it didn't represent us in the first place

      "Well we don't rent pigs and I figure it's better to say it right out front because a man that does like to rent pigs is... he's hard to stop" Gus McCrae

      by pfiore8 on Tue Jul 31, 2007 at 10:13:41 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I don't know... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        pfiore8

        ... what "rules" apply as far as the site goes, but the rules that govern what reporters can do are a little clearer. You just can't do something like this and expect people to say, "Oh, he was just doing it as a citizen."

        I'd never do it because it would cost me my job. Although the pay alone is making me start researching my options... but that's another topic.

        Draft a challenger for Jim Inhofe! Draft Andrew Rice

        by droogie6655321 on Tue Jul 31, 2007 at 10:20:05 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  i was a reporter and (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          bablhous, Little Lulu, Mother of Zeus

          i don't remember those rules... my job preventing me freedom as a private citizen? oh right... BushCo changed that... now corporations trump my Bill of Rights...

          yikes! no wonder we do strange and unfathomable things...

          "Well we don't rent pigs and I figure it's better to say it right out front because a man that does like to rent pigs is... he's hard to stop" Gus McCrae

          by pfiore8 on Tue Jul 31, 2007 at 10:22:10 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  It's not about rights (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            pfiore8

            It's about credibility. I'd have no credibility as a neutral observer of public events if I were visiting people's homes with protest signs.

            We would be up in arms if, for example, Joe Klein went to Keith Olbermann's house with protest signs. He'd be wrong to do it, even if what he was saying about Olbermann were true.

            Draft a challenger for Jim Inhofe! Draft Andrew Rice

            by droogie6655321 on Tue Jul 31, 2007 at 10:29:37 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  droogie6655321... think about this for 1 minute (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Mother of Zeus

              you are entitled to be a private citizen...

              none of us are ever neutral observers... we all have a bias, it's just some of us are better at admitting it and putting it to the side (open-minded)

              there are certainly conflict-of-interest situations, but to me, this is NOT one of them

              and if Mike is willing to put his rep on the line... then that's up to him

              what i OBJECT to is having the MEDIA suit on and pretending to report non-sourced or non-factual stories as fact, no matter what your bias is... now that's WRONG. It's wrong not to ask questions that need to be asked... it's wrong to be Joe Klein or Tom Friedman... but Mike? what he did was stupid, but there was no shame in it, as far as i'm concerned

              Friedman and Klein should be ashamed...

              i don't think Mike was doing that, btw, presenting a false story... then we'd be having a whole different discussion

              "Well we don't rent pigs and I figure it's better to say it right out front because a man that does like to rent pigs is... he's hard to stop" Gus McCrae

              by pfiore8 on Tue Jul 31, 2007 at 10:41:09 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Maybe Klein was a bad example. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                pfiore8

                Yes, I know none of us are neutral. But reporters have to try to be.

                Every reporter has different standards that we demand of ourselves. I guess mine and Mike's are different.

                Draft a challenger for Jim Inhofe! Draft Andrew Rice

                by droogie6655321 on Tue Jul 31, 2007 at 10:46:06 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I totally agree with you, droogie ... (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  pfiore8

                  ... As someone in another diary comment thread said: Mike needs to decide what he wants to be when he grows up. He can be an activist or he can be a journalist. Not both simultaneously.

                  You are right. This is all about credibility. If Mr. Stark wants to perform his little publicity stunts and political street theatre as a partisan activist, I have no problem with that. But for him to pose as a journalist and do these things shows me only that his ego has gotten the better of his common sense. Heck, I've known reporters who refuse to even vote because they thought it would compromise their objectivity. And although I wouldn't go as far as that, I do believe most working journalists (not pundits) know where the boundaries are when it comes to sacrificing their professional reputation for honesty.

                  It also really bothers me that so many here at Daily Kos are willing to support Mr. Stark for doing the exact same thing we would deplore if it were a right-wingnut attacking one of our own. All of this macho posturing about "doing something" and accusations that anyone who disagrees with these gutter tactics is a "concern troll" just shows how much anger and frustration have undermined our intelligence and our judgment. If politics is the art of compromise and consensus building and negotiation, Mr. Stark's supporters seem to be saying they would rather continue to lose elections and feel good about themselves than to persuade others who are undecided that progressives have a more positive alternative to the fear and hate O'Reilly (sp?) peddles.

                  In the end, this whole thing is a tempest in a teapot. By next week, nobody will give a damn about it, and even now it's only of marginal interest to us here in Kossackland.

                  Oh well, nothing anyone can say will change any person's mind on this. It's like trying to reason with someone whose arguments are all based on pure emotion. No words, however carefully chosen, will ever get through.

                  Flame away folks.

                  ... So listen up world, here is my thesis:
                  Peace on Earth or the Earth in pieces." - Atomic Cafe soundtrack, circa 1988.

                  •  agree BUT (0+ / 0-)

                    just don't tell me this is a blow to dKos or the dems

                    when right now, we're still worried about being labeled weak on defense by an incredibly weakened GOP??? a GOP with zero credibility?

                    now that's something to get in a tizzy over... Mike is  free man and speaks for himself... it's his reputation on the line, not mine

                    so i don't know what all the shouting is about credibility

                    "Well we don't rent pigs and I figure it's better to say it right out front because a man that does like to rent pigs is... he's hard to stop" Gus McCrae

                    by pfiore8 on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 02:31:44 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Sorry, did not mean to shout ... (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      pfiore8

                      ... but I just think the issue of credibility comes up because Mr. Stark likes to call himself a journalist, and, as droogie pointed out, no real journalist would do what Mike has done.

                      You are right. Mr. Stark is a free man and may, of course, express himself in any way he pleases. However, if/when he claims to represent the Daily Kos in particular or journalism in general, well ... that is open to question.

                      I do hope we can get back to more important matters as far as educating the American people about just how badly this Rethuglican administration has screwed them over. That, as you said, is the real issue here.

                      Thanks for your thoughtful reply. Peace.

                      •  you're not shouting, we're all a bit edgy (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        philimus

                        and with good reason...

                        this place builds good alliances, patience for getting through arguments, and promotes reasonableness...

                        our interaction... that we try to understand each other's POV... makes the whole Mike Incident worth it...

                        we made something good out of it!!!!

                        "Well we don't rent pigs and I figure it's better to say it right out front because a man that does like to rent pigs is... he's hard to stop" Gus McCrae

                        by pfiore8 on Thu Aug 02, 2007 at 08:13:26 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

            •  Who's trying to have credibility as a neutral (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              pfiore8

              observer?  Not Mike Stark.  It was not unlike Roger and Me, albeit not particularly clever or effective.  Activism/journalism together.  It is what it is.  

  •  I agree. It's time Billo's prickishness (6+ / 0-)

    was served back to him with double-helpings!

    •  best way to do that is make him irrelevant (0+ / 0-)

      but more stunts like this will only fan his flame... so i would not recommend it

      i'm just saying people are frustrated and we sometimes act out in ways that, had we thought more carefully, we normally would never do

      "Well we don't rent pigs and I figure it's better to say it right out front because a man that does like to rent pigs is... he's hard to stop" Gus McCrae

      by pfiore8 on Tue Jul 31, 2007 at 10:16:11 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I'm just astonished at the hundreds of people (5+ / 0-)

    who posted today to actually say that Mike's action proved us ALL to be no better than Coulter and Beck.

    That's really shooting dKos in the foot.

    I really question whether people who judge someone who took action that harmed no one and got out the truth are the kind of people who can help you win.

    skiddly bop doo wow!

    by skiddlybop on Tue Jul 31, 2007 at 10:16:08 AM PDT

  •  If folks around here don't know... (9+ / 0-)

    what to expect from Mike by now, they've been sleeping under a rock.

    The whining about Mike's par for the course antics is really quite puzzling. It's not like any of us should be surprised by it.

    I'm personally quite fond of his "silly stunts". It's far too often folks like O'Reilly get away without any discomfortable consequences for their BS. Mike merely provides that in mostly harmless, but awfully embarrassing ways.

    Keep the silly stunts coming. Someone needs to get in these fools faces!

    Síocháin! It is by will alone I set my mind in motion.

    by Erevann on Tue Jul 31, 2007 at 10:17:46 AM PDT

    •  nice comment, erevann! (6+ / 0-)

      it's okay to be US... isn't it? even if we don't all agree, this guy did not harm anybody.

      "Well we don't rent pigs and I figure it's better to say it right out front because a man that does like to rent pigs is... he's hard to stop" Gus McCrae

      by pfiore8 on Tue Jul 31, 2007 at 10:18:54 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Exactly... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        metal prophet, pfiore8

        and what's more, is that it's been Mike's assertive confrontational style that's helped move the over-arching debate back from the right.

        He's gotten attention and broken into the media to disrupt a narrative that's not usually been in our favor.

        We don't always agree, of course. I hope we never do! But we all have our parts to play and if we're going to be effective, we need to recognize, rationally and openly, the positive and negative effects of the actions of anyone involved in our community.

        But that also requires that we recognize what works and advances our cause, no matter how distasteful we may find it.

        Personally, I've been rather frustrated and discouraged over the past decades tactics for pushing back, through street protests, letter-writing campaigns, etc... all the traditional activist methods. They're a known quantity to those we're struggling against and they've adapted to them, minimizing thier effectiveness to a great degree.

        Mike and others like him, push back in a way, while not "new" per se, but more visceral and confrontational.

        You can chant, hold your sign, and get penned into a "free-speech zone" or you can break away, slip inside and get right up in the grill of some fool like O'Reilly and square off with him face to face and make him defend his own hateful nature.

        I'll take the latter of those, cause it's long past time those who would demonize us had to face the ones they seek to destroy.

        But your last point is critical, and one Mike has always been sure to respect. Never let it lead to violence, even if it means getting your ass kicked in the process. Doing so, will always allow you to maintain a hold on the high-moral ground.

        Confrontation and humiliation are NOT unacceptable tactics in this fight. They're much NEEDED tactics, long overdue.

        I do, however, find it rather curious how quickly some will turn on those whom they have cheered on loudly in the past, as soon as they step outside someone's comfort zone. Saw it with Cindy Sheehan, we're seeing it here.

        This, concerns me greatly, but I imagine it's at least partly the result of the influx of new users around here, who are a bit more skittish than us old-timers. I could certainly be wrong, but it wouldn't surprise me to find it so.

        Just my little loose change on the subject. :) Thanks for the diary too!

        Síocháin! It is by will alone I set my mind in motion.

        by Erevann on Tue Jul 31, 2007 at 11:35:16 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I agree, but (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    pfiore8

    Putting your name on it and then saying you want to reveal the video at YearlyKos is just stupid.

    Stuff like this is best done in the dead of night with maybe a cryptic calling card left saying who did it.

    Publicly challenging someone and forcing confrontation is one thing.  Pranks and monkeywrenching are another.   You don't walk up to someone's door and say "hi, i'm pulling a prank on you."  That defeats the point.  For stuff like this to have the maximum psychological effect, the mark must not know who is doing it.  

    When I was young I hung out with some EarthFirst! extremist types.  Most of the greater environmentalist community secretly supported the kind of direct action employed, but still had to publicly distance themselves from it.  I see this as much the same kind of thing.  This is like Stark documenting himself sabotaging a construction site and wanting to show the footage at a Sierra Club convention.  A fair number of people might secretly support it, but in order to maintain mainstream respectability the community as a whole must distance themselves from it.

    •  we don't need to SHUN him or distance ourselves (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      rapala, Owllwoman, Mother of Zeus

      we can say it was unnecessary and let Mike respond... nobody kicks out Gonzo or Coulter for outright lies... nobody has kicked bush out for lying our way into Iraq and being responsible for 1000s upon 1000s of dead, maimed, mutilated, and mentally scarred...

      know what i mean?

      "Well we don't rent pigs and I figure it's better to say it right out front because a man that does like to rent pigs is... he's hard to stop" Gus McCrae

      by pfiore8 on Tue Jul 31, 2007 at 10:24:35 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I agree. But there comes a time when you need (7+ / 0-)

    to take a stand. bill_o has been hurting people for years.. It was time someone taught him how it feels to be shamed. Will he feel it? Probably not but others may see the hipocracy, now. We didn't do it but, please don't ask me not to laugh. I have been laughing for the last half hour and I won't feel bad about it.

    "Though the Mills of the Gods grind slowly,Yet they grind exceeding small."

    by Owllwoman on Tue Jul 31, 2007 at 10:24:17 AM PDT

    •  thanks, Owllwoman (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      rapala, Owllwoman

      we have been so battered with bad deeds and made to feel so helpless... this is an outlet... not a  mature, reasoned one, but none-the-less...

      "Well we don't rent pigs and I figure it's better to say it right out front because a man that does like to rent pigs is... he's hard to stop" Gus McCrae

      by pfiore8 on Tue Jul 31, 2007 at 10:25:36 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  yep (7+ / 0-)

    well said, I find it troubling that Mike Stark going to O Reillys house gets more people upset here than say the daily death by spreadsheet that goes on in this country everyday.

    I find it funny, if you fuck over, destroy a man from 1000 miles away, thats OK, but if you actually confront someone face to face, suddenly that is out of bounds.

    Generals gathered in their masses Just like witches at black masses.. Evil minds that plot destruction Sorcerers of deaths construction..........

    by pissedpatriot on Tue Jul 31, 2007 at 10:29:06 AM PDT

  •  I agree with almost everything you're saying (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bablhous, pfiore8

    here, with the exception that I don't believe Mike Stark has done anything wrong.  On the contrary, he's been taking action to stop these Rethugs from framing all the issues in their lying, thieving, deceiving favor.

    Using O'Lielly's tactics against him is sweet, IMHO.  It doesn't scare me one bit, because Mike Stark is using the TRUTH.  Now, if O'Lielly wants to retaliate, he's gonna expose some pretty disgusting things about himself, which is exactly what should be done every day.

    O'Lielly is a disgusting pervert and should be exposed (no pun intended) as such.  IMHO, Mike Stark is a patriot and a brave, brave man and I, for one, salute him.

    Fear is the bludgeon of the righties and I refuse to let them use it on me.

    •  good for you, Little Lulu (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Little Lulu

      "Well we don't rent pigs and I figure it's better to say it right out front because a man that does like to rent pigs is... he's hard to stop" Gus McCrae

      by pfiore8 on Tue Jul 31, 2007 at 10:44:27 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I agree. It blows me away that we're so (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      cometman, Little Lulu, pfiore8

      intimidated by the opposition that we fall all over each other to condemn one of ours. We're so concerned with how it looks, what names people will call us. What will people think? Whatever will the neighbors say? No, no. I'm not associated with this man.

      Yeah, we're gonna change the country, alright. As soon as we get permission.

      Tippy-toe.

      Shhhh.

      Don't make any noise, any fuss.

      They might wake up and demand to know WHY we're here. And then we'd have to confess that we're just trying to go along to get along and we don't want any hassle.

      Oh, one more thing. If they wake up, don't look 'em in the eye. It makes them mad and we don't want that.

      "We're all in this together" -- Harry Tuttle, legendary plumber

      by bablhous on Tue Jul 31, 2007 at 10:59:07 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Stark gave bill_o shit, NOT 'us' or 'dkos' or (5+ / 0-)

    'The Dems' or ...

    what a bunch of whiny ass chickenshits in this Democratic party.

    "uh-oh they'll LIE about us and make us look bad!"

    hello chickenshits - the fascists ALWAYS fucking lie and one reason we look bad is we don't fight back

    and another reason we look like chickenshits is cuz we Never take the fight to the fascists.

    Americans don't like wimps and they definitely do NOT like people who won't fight for them.

    rmm.

    Yond Cassius has a lean and hungry look; He thinks too much: such men are dangerous

    by seabos84 on Tue Jul 31, 2007 at 10:51:46 AM PDT

    •  oh... u r appealing to my emotional side (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      bablhous, Erevann, seabos84

      and i'm trying really really hard to stay mature and grown up about this

      but you make a great point... what can i say???

      "Well we don't rent pigs and I figure it's better to say it right out front because a man that does like to rent pigs is... he's hard to stop" Gus McCrae

      by pfiore8 on Tue Jul 31, 2007 at 10:55:49 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  A little more blunt than I'd go... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      seabos84, pfiore8

      but we're on the same page mostly.

      Time for being PROactive... I've had more than enough of the REactive.

      We on the left, have taken more than enough of a beating in the public square over the last 20 years or so. To the point that "liberal" a derivative of the word "liberty", is taken as some sort of dirty word.

      Or... as Popeye would say:

      That's alls I can stands, and I can't stands no more.

      Time to eat our spinach. :)

      Síocháin! It is by will alone I set my mind in motion.

      by Erevann on Tue Jul 31, 2007 at 11:42:29 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Yup (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      seabos84, pfiore8

      Considering the fact that they'll call us Nazis or Stalinists or dirty hippies or whatever mean name, no matter what we do, this hardly matters.

  •  Kick in the shin (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bablhous, Erevann, pfiore8, Mother of Zeus

    There alot of people who deserve a metaphorical kick in the shin, and Bill O'Reilly is right near the top of the list. Bill O'Reilly has caused others to be threatened and stalked in their homes, including a judge in Vermont, and if Bill is made to reap what he has sown, I think that's perfectly okay.

    The Bush Family: 0 for 4 in Wisconsin

    by Korkenzieher on Tue Jul 31, 2007 at 10:53:27 AM PDT

  •  Thanks for this reality-check pfiore8 (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bablhous, Erevann, kraant, pfiore8

    I agree wholeheartedly.  I have mixed feeling about what he did (and I hate that he used that only-too-frequently misused insult, "pervert" rather than calling B.O. out as the harasser that he is).  But the reaction to it concerns me much more.

    To paraphrase what I wrote elsewhere. . .

    There is room for Mike Stark in our house whether we think his tactic was good or bad.

    I start to get worried when I see that some people think there is no room for him in our house.  I don't want to be part of a movement that is too embarrassed to say "I agree with Mike Stark that O'Reilly is a despicable sexual harasser and a world-class hypocrite" even if privately some people wish he had found another way to make his point.

    And it can't be forgotten that Bill O'Reilly has a huge megaphone because he is carrying water for very powerful interests.  Mike Stark, not so much.  What do people who don't have the FOX channel as their megaphone have to do to have a larger voice?  Activism is an amplifier.  If you haven't seen The Yes Men on Bill Moyers, Mike Bonnano makes the point quite cogently.  Mike Stark's tactic here wasn't nearly as subtle, smart or effective.  I wish he'd found a more clever way to make the same point.  But that's no excuse to excoriate him.

    •  see, this is why i'm a fan of yours, MoZ (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Erevann

      terrific comment!

      "Well we don't rent pigs and I figure it's better to say it right out front because a man that does like to rent pigs is... he's hard to stop" Gus McCrae

      by pfiore8 on Tue Jul 31, 2007 at 10:59:10 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Oh, and I was going to add one thing (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      cometman, Erevann, pfiore8

      I would here, on this site, among friends, express my feeling that his tactic was weak. If I left my house and Bill O'Reilly had a camera in my face to ask me what I thought, I would NEVER sell Mike Stark out for one second.  I would tell O'Reilly that Stark is 100% within his legal rights, that he hasn't done anything O'Reilly himself hasn't done, and that if he object so much why doesn't he sue Mike Start and prove the allegations in Andrea Makritis' Complaint to be false?

  •  This reminds me of 2004 (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    kraant, pfiore8

    We'd freak out whenever someone on our side did something the slightest bit radical, lest we offend some mythical swing voter in Ohio.

    Well, we lost anyway.

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