Daily Kos

Kossacks Under 35: Personal Finance

Thu Jan 04, 2007 at 06:05:32 PM PDT

Welcome to the first "Kossacks Under 35" diary of 2007!  I've been thinking for a while about writing a diary on personal finance issues, and when Katherine offered me the chance to piggyback on her series, I jumped at it.  I'm not exactly in the "under 35" demographic.  OK, I'm closer to 45 than 35, but I'd like to pass on stuff that I'm glad I learned before I was 35 and some other stuff that I wish I had known then.  I was going to subtitle this diary "Things I'm glad my mother taught me" but some of this I had to learn on my own, so the old lady doesn't get all the credit.  (Hi Mom!)

There is virtually no political content in this diary, so if that's your thing, you can bail out now.

Another note before I begin.  I'm not any kind of financial professional.  I consider myself an interested layman (I'm probably the only person I know who actually enjoys doing my own taxes) but there are lots of people out there who know more than I and please feel free to correct me if I  make any errors.  

  • Compound Interest

    If there is one single most important concept you need to grasp when it comes to managing your personal finances, it is compound interest.  I think it's a crime that we won't let children leave school in this country without knowing that Columbus sailed in 1492, but we release all these young adults into the world without making sure they have a grasp of the power of compound interest.  It can be a tremendously powerful tool that you can wield to your benefit, or it can push you into a hole so deep you may never climb out.  I run through some detailed examples below, but let me first say that if you are ever tempted to borrow cash from your credit card or, worse yet, get a loan from one of those "payday loan" places, please, please, reconsider.

  • Budgeting

    The first step to gaining control of your finances is to come up with a plan.  Figure out what money you have coming in and decide where you want it to go.  My mom used to tell me to start with the 70-10-10-10 plan: 70% of your income goes to expenses, 10% to savings, 10% to charity and 10% to education.  Over the years, I've tweaked those percentages as my situation has changed, but it's not a bad place to start.
    Remember that education doesn't cease when you leave school and sometimes education comes in unexpected ways.  I once paid a $900 "tuition" to learn the lesson that one should never sign a contract that says one thing in writing when all the parties agreed orally to something else.  The writing is what will be enforced and no one is going to care (or even admit) to what they may or may not have said when you signed it.  If you are young, with few responsibilities (e.g., mortgage or children) you probably want to increase the savings percentage while you can.  If you are still in school, or still paying off steep student loans, your education percentage may be higher.

    Sit down with all your paychecks and your bank statements and your credit card bills for the last 6-12 months and first look at exactly what money you have coming in pre-tax and where it is all going.  Divide your expenses into categories like "food", "entertainment", "clothes", "rent", etc.  I find it easiest to use software designed for this (Quicken, in my case) but I know people who do this using a simple spreadsheet.  If you have a large amount of cash that you spend and can't track, you should try to monitor where that is going by saving all your cash receipts for at least a week (or a month) and then sorting them out at the end of that time.  If you are spending cash on things you don't get receipts for, try carrying around a small notebook or a PDA and write it down everytime you spend any cash.  You may get weird looks from your friends, but I'm sure they are secretly jealous that you are so organized.  (At least that's what I always told myself when I did exactly that for years.)

    If you need to decrease your expenses, look for things you can change, not just the biggest expenses. It's quite probable that your tax bill will be the single largest expense you have, and in all likelihood you can't reduce that by much.  Pay close attention to exactly how much you are paying for any loan interest, and look to find ways to reduce that by either paying off the loans more aggressively or by consolidating high interest loans into a lower interest vehicle.   Always pay off the balance on the highest interest loans (e.g., credit cards) you have before the lower interest rate loans (e.g., car loans).   It's a good idea to repeat this exercise at least once or twice a year.

  • Savings and Retirement Accounts

    One of the hardest things for me was to find the motivation to start saving for retirement at an early age.  Looking at the younger generation frittering away their opportunities is one of the things that causes old codgers to grumble about "youth being wasted on the young" but mostly we are all mad that we wasted our own youth.  My mom used to try to get me to understand that you actually have a pretty limited window of saving opportunity by running through the following analysis.  It didn't always work with me, but I'll pass it on anyhow.

    Assume you are going to live to 80, you can divide your life roughly into fourths (20 year chunks).  In the first fourth, your parents take care of your needs.  In the next two you are earning money to take care of yourself and your own kids and in the final fourth, you can hopefully retire and take it easy.  So you only have 40 years in which to put away all the money you are going to need for that last fourth of your life.  This is where compounding interest can really work for you.  If you start saving at the age of 25 and invest $3000 per year at 6% compounded interest (APR 6.18%) at the age of 65, you would have about $500,000 in the account, while the total amount you invested was $123,000.  If you wait just 10 years and don't start until you are 35, you would have to save over $5800 per year ($180,000 total) to have the same nest egg at 65.  If you wait until you are 45 to start, you would need to save over $12,000 per year ($259,000 total) to achieve the same result.  In other words:

    Age Start    Interest Rate    Annual Savings    Total Invested    Total Value at Age 65    
    256%$3000$123,000$493,396
    356%$5818$180,358$493,376
    456%$12,337$259,077$493,390

    It's best to have at least some of your savings be automatic.    If you try to save whatever is left over after you pay your expenses, you often find you don't have any left over.  Set up automatic deductions from your paycheck for your 401K (if you have one available to you) and/or your IRA.  These two types of accounts offer significant tax advantages over regular savings or investment accounts.  Individual Retirement Accounts (IRAs) are accounts you set up yourself through your bank or brokerage house.  401K savings accounts (if you are in an education field, there is a similar account called a 403B) are set up through your employer.  401Ks are more attractive than IRAs, since employers often have a matching program where they will match a portion of the contribution you make directly into your account.  IRAs are open to anyone who makes above a minimum amount in the year.  In both of these accounts, you are limited to a certain maximum contribution per year.  If at all possible, you should be maxing out your contributions to each of these.  There are two types of IRAs and 401Ks: standard and Roth

  • Standard 401Ks & IRAs
    In the standard version of these accounts, any money you put into the account is tax deductible when invested.  When you take it out, after you reach retirement age, you then pay tax on the money as ordinary income.  However, it will probably be true that when you retire, your income level will be much less than it was when you were working, and therefore you will be in a lower tax bracket.  In addition, if you are buying and selling investments in your IRA account over the years, you pay no capital gains tax for every sale, so that your savings will grow more quickly than they would in a regular taxed account.

  • Roth 401Ks and IRAs

    About ten years ago, the feds changed the tax code and introduced a new type of IRA called a Roth IRA.  Just this year, they added a Roth version of the 401K as well.  Not all employers offer the Roth 401K, and there are income qualifications you must meet to qualify for the Roth IRA, but  if you have access to either, they are very attractive savings instruments, especially for young people.  The key is that the money you contribute is no longer tax deductible.  You have to pay tax on that income right now.  However, you never pay any taxes on the gains in the account as it grows and when you take the proceeds out after retirement, the entire distribution is tax free.  (Woohoo!  Two of the sweetest words in the English language!)

  • In addition to retirement savings accounts, you should have a general savings account for things you may want to buy before you retire (like the down payment on a house).  However, if you are carrying any high interest consumer debt (credit cards) it doesn't make sense to put your savings into a low interest savings account.  Get those high interest debts paid off as soon as possible.

  • Debt and Credit History

    There may be times in your life when you need to purchase something (e.g., a home or car) that you do not have the cash for at the time and you will need to take on debt.  Debt in and of itself is not a bad thing, but you do need to understand what you are taking on every time you borrow money.  Once again the power of compound interest can bite you in the butt.

    There are three main things you need to look at for every loan you take: interest rate, loan duration, and repayment schedule.  In addition, there are other things to take into consideration as well (e.g., points, or tax deductibility of interest, etc), but first focus on the big three.  I'm just giving some general guidelines here and there are lots of situations that contradict each of these rules, but this is a good place to start.  Obviously you want the interest rate to be as low as possible, but you also want the rate to be fixed so that you know that your loan repayment amount will not change in the future.  In general, especially for consumer debt (i.e., anything not a home or business loan) you want to keep the loan duration as short as you can manage.  For long term loans, you can end up paying many times the value of the original loan in interest payments.  Finally, when it comes to repayment schedule, you want to be sure that the loan balance is being reduced by your payments faster than it is growing due to the addition of interest.  If you see the words "interest only payments" or "balloon payment" run, do not walk, to the nearest exit.  

    Here's an example to show the effect of the loan duration and monthly payment.  Say you borrow $2000 from your credit card at 12% compounded interest (APR 12.75%) and you make $100 payments per month.  In just over 22 months, you will have paid off the entire loan and will have paid $244 in interest.  If instead you only pay $50 per month, your repayment will take over 51 months and you will end up paying $571 in interest.   If your payments were only $25 per month ("low, low payments!") you would be paying off that loan for over 13 years and your interest payments would total almost $2100.  In other words:

    Loan   Interest   Loan   Monthly   Total   Total  
    Amount    Rate    Duration    Payment    Repayment    Interest    
    $200012%23 months$100$2244$244
    $200012%52 months$50$2571$571
    $200012%163 months   $25$4074$2074

    Incidentally, if instead of borrowing the $2000, you waited to  make your purchase and put $100 in a savings account every month that earned 6% interest (APR 6.18%), in only 19 months you would have saved the $2000 you initially needed.  

    The better your credit history is, the more favorable loan terms you can negotiate, so it is really important to keep your credit history as clean as possible.  You need to have activity in your history in order for the lending agencies to be able to judge your ability to repay a loan.  Therefore, having credit cards (more than one) is a good thing.  However, carrying balances on them is not a good thing, especially if you are trying to qualify for a new loan since the bank may decide that you can't afford more payments each month.  In addition, even one single late payment can show up as a detriment on your credit report, so it is very important to always make sure those payments are received and posted before the due date.  

    A really good rule of thumb with credit cards is to never ever carry a balance from month to month.  Pay off your bill in its entirety every month.  In that way, you are using the credit card company's money interest free for the period of time between when you purchase the item and when you pay the bill and they are getting absolutely nothing from you.  It's always a kick to stick it to the big corporations in your own little way.

    If you are really constitutionally unable to resist charging up large balances you can't immediately pay, then don't carry the cards with you.  You may, as a last resort have to switch to a debit card.  I suggest you set up a separate account for the debit card and only keep a small amount of money in that account.  Debit cards offer much less protection when it comes to fraud and theft.  If someone steals your debit card and cleans out your bank account, you may eventually get most of it back, but you won't have the use of that money while you are fighting with the bank.  Just make sure that your debit card account is not linked to your main account via any  "overdraft protection" scheme, or your main account may still get cleaned out by theft.

  • Further Resources

    OK, I guess I am just too long winded to cover all the stuff I wanted to say.  I was going to say more on: Investing Basics, Smart Shopping, Money Between Couples, Money for Kids, Taxes and Contracts, but I better stop now.  If there is interest, I'll do another diary on those points some day.  There are a bunch of books out there on how to manage your personal finances and investments.  Here are some that have been recommended to me over the years.  I would suggest getting them from the library, since I find most of what they say to fall into the category of "common sense" and may not be stuff you need to read more than once.  Note that each of these authors has expanded his/her/their advice to an entire line of books specialized for all sorts of different circumstances (but to be honest, they mostly look like much of the same information repackaged in a different cover).

  • Smart Women Finish Rich by David Bach
  • Rich Dad, Poor Dad by Robert T. Kiyosaki and Sharon L. Lechter
  • The Millionaire Next Door by Thomas J. Stanley and William D. Danko
  • The Money Book for the Young, Fabulous & Broke by Suze Orman
  • Also, I saw a Wiki-How page earlier this week on How to Save Money that has some helpful hints too.  The above books give general guidelines and advice.  For specific answers to legal questions on lots on different topics (real estate, landlord/tenant issues, estate planning, employment issues) I first look to Nolo Press.  They have a great line of books on these and other topics.  For tax questions, I suggest getting a general tax guide every year.  I've used both J.K. Lasser's Your Income Tax and Ernst & Young Tax Guide over the years.  I haven't noticed a big difference between the two.   If you are really hard core, go for the U. S. Master Tax Guide published by CCH.  If you can read and understand that, you could probably write new tax law.

    Tags: Kossacks Under Thirty Five, finance, Personal Finance, teaching, community, Frugal Friday (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

    Permalink | 168 comments

    •  Tips? Comments? Corrections? (33+ / 0-)

      No need to point out my overwhelming nerditude.  I've recognized that for years!

      Frugal Fridays, where the cheap come to chat.

      by sarahnity on Thu Jan 04, 2007 at 06:03:33 PM PDT

    •  Thanks Sarah! (8+ / 0-)

      This is great. Thanks for sharing your wisdom!

      I totally second the recommend on David Bach's book. It also has incredibly useful tips about information you need from your family -- for instance, where the safety deposit key is, or if your parents have wills.

      Thanks again for writing this!

      If anyone wants to get on the Kossacks Under 35 mailing list, please email kossacksunder35 at the gmail.

      "Not just with words, but with deeds." -- Barack Obama

      by kath25 on Thu Jan 04, 2007 at 06:04:55 PM PDT

    •  Fantastic advice (10+ / 0-)

      I'm in a bit of a credit card hole, accumulated over recent years largely on car repairs ($4000 at last count!) and had budgeted a way to get it all paid off by June.

      Unfortunately I learned today that a course I was going to teach, the pay from which was going to be central to my debt repayment plan, may be canceled due to low enrollment. If that happens it's back to the drawing board.

      I really think your point about savings is great. I saw a similar chart to yours about 6 months ago and it changed the way I think about it. My fiance and I have already begun socking money away. Her new job has her contributing to TWO pensions - Cal-PERS and a union pension plan - which is great. On top of that she's saving about $500 a month.

      It's also worth pointing out that maintaining savings is an excellent way to avoid credit card debt. It's my contention that folks our age tend to get into credit card trouble through unanticipated expenses. Even a small amount of savings can help get someone through a lean period or deal with a flat tire, a busted heater, or whatever else might happen.

      I think many of us may also have been seduced by easy credit over the last 10 years or so. But the old adages remain true - save instead of charge. Generations before ours learned it the hard way. Hopefully thanks to your diary, we won't have to!

      I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day
      Neither is California High Speed Rail

      by eugene on Thu Jan 04, 2007 at 06:16:47 PM PDT

    •  Share suggestions? (9+ / 0-)

      Let's all kick in a few suggestions for what works for us.

      I don't really know the legality of giving "stock tips" over the internet, but if you're opening either an IRA or Roth IRA, make sure to buy a few dividend stocks. You are limited in how much $$ you can put in it every year, but the money earned by dividends doesn't count in that.

      Personally, I like something called MPV, which runs about $15 a share and churns about $1 a year in dividends. That's a lot. If you want to get great tips, my dad the finance man suggests Yahoo Finance.

      Sarah, your suggestion about the cash notebook is also great. I find that when I want to control my spending I avoid the cards and just use cash, to be more aware of how fast it's going.

      Last but not least, one great way to save serious cash is to avoid the Starbucks lattes and drink the free coffee in the office. That $3 or $4 a day in espresso works out to about $100 a month. If you want better brew, then get a Bialetti or a French Press, some Lavazza grounds, and DIY! :-)

      "Not just with words, but with deeds." -- Barack Obama

      by kath25 on Thu Jan 04, 2007 at 06:16:59 PM PDT

      •  Roth IRAs (8+ / 0-)

        Also, you can get a Roth IRA through a bank, not just your employer. Shop around -- you want to consider costs of commission. If you want to buy into a mutual fund, find out if it's an annual maintenance fee or a load-fee where you pay each time you buy into it.

        There are some GREAT alternate energy mutual funds out there. Do some research. I like to think that our Dem congress (!!!) will be good for alt-energy companies.

        "Not just with words, but with deeds." -- Barack Obama

        by kath25 on Thu Jan 04, 2007 at 06:26:10 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Investment suggestions (8+ / 0-)

        I don't have a whole lot to suggest when it comes to investments, since mr. sarahnity handles those decisions in our house.  (He's the only person I know who actually came out of grad school with an investment portfolio; the rest of us came out with debts!)  But one thing I did learn just recently that is pretty key: rebalancing.

        Everyone says you should diversify your portfolio: some in large cap, small cap, bonds, cash, etc.  But very few stress how important it is to annually rebalance your investments.  If you have your profolio split 40-30-20 between small cap, large cap and bonds and at the end of the year, small cap did well, you may now be split: 46-20-14.  Sell some small cap and put it into bonds to get back to the percentages you originally planned.  If you do the analysis, this is one of the more (if not the most) important tools for maximizing your return over the long term.

        And if you are really clueless about the market, then don't go into individual stocks, start with mutual funds to minimize the fluctuation risk.  As for which fund, I'd pick an index fund.  It's rare that any mutual fund actually beats the index over the really long haul (decades) and index funds have very low management fees.

        Frugal Fridays, where the cheap come to chat.

        by sarahnity on Thu Jan 04, 2007 at 06:30:03 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Age vs. Risk (7+ / 0-)

          Good point. Also, when you're younger, you can make riskier investments because you're dealing with a smaller chunk of money. As you get older, you want more stable investments.

          One last tip: watch the tweens and teens! You know what stock went through the roof two years ago? The company that makes Ugg Boots. Yes, Ugg(ly) Boots. If you get a hunch that something you like could be profitable, then go ahead and by 10 shares. My dad started me with 10 shares of Caesar's Palace when I was 12, and let's just say it's done pretty well over the years.

          For instance, Chipotle and The Limited have both done really well over the past year. But research! before you buy. :-)  

          "Not just with words, but with deeds." -- Barack Obama

          by kath25 on Thu Jan 04, 2007 at 06:34:28 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  One way to get a handle on portfolio allocation (5+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          SallyCat, sarahnity, Ambrosius, paxpdx, kath25

          is to look at what a company like Fidelity puts into its Freedom Funds. These are pre-packaged portfolios tuned by the professionals to have what they think is the appropriate level of risk for people with a particular retirement date. If you look at the various funds, you'll notice the expected variations in the stock-to-bond ratio for different retirement dates.

          If you prefer not to mess with building a portfolio yourself, one of these pre-packeaged plans might be worth a look.

      •  Bond ETFs and mutual funds (6+ / 0-)

        I don't want to name specifics, but bond ETFs and mutual funds pay about 8% annually in dividends. A municipal bond fund pays about 5% annual dividend tax free. There is some volatility on the share price, but they're safer than stocks.

        A mutual fund works better for saving a little at a time because fees are structured to discourage short term trades. An ETF works like a mutual fund, but it's traded like a stock. You pay a broker's commission for each trade, so better to buy and sell in big blocks.

        •  Dividends (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          SallyCat, sarahnity, kath25

          When investing into ETF's I only look at those who give out a dividend.  That way even if the ETF does poorly it still gets dividends.  I also reinvest the dividends.  I have one ETF in which the reinvested dividend is enough to buy me an additional share a month.

      •  I am loving (7+ / 0-)

        the targeted date retirement funds.  All of the big guys have them right now.  Their rates are low and they automatically give you diversity between stocks and bonds.  However, my REIT fund is kicking major ass this year.

        I am one of those crazy responsible 20 somethings.  I automatically kick cash over to savings every month for a rainy day fund, which I hopefully wont have to go into soon.  Then I have money each month that automatically tranfers to an IRA for retirement and then another account that I consider my house down-payment fund.  If I stick around here in CA, that will have to be a healthy chunk of change.

    •  Oh, how I wish I had followed this advice (11+ / 0-)

      when I was under 35!

    •  i'm pretty sure... (12+ / 0-)

      that my game plan consists of never buying a car or a house.
      sounds good for now.
      i'm sure that'll change after college =).

      Democracy forever teases us with the contrast between its ideals and its realities, between its heroic possibilities and its sorry achievements. ~Agnes Repplier

      by Rebelatheart on Thu Jan 04, 2007 at 06:19:41 PM PDT

    •  Retiring older makes a big difference (8+ / 0-)

      Even 70 vs 65 or 60.

      Your mileage may vary on this one.  You may not have a choice.  You may detest your line of work.

      George

    •  How about short term investments? (10+ / 0-)

      I'd like nothing more than to be able to start an IRA -- I'll be 29 this year -- but I'm still in grad school and have about $20 left after paying my bills at the end of the month unless I pick up an outside consulting contract. In a typical year, I pick up $3-4K that way, which is enough to start an IRA, but would leave me with virtually no safety net in an emergency.

      So here's the question -- what short term investments can I make that would leave my money available to me if I needed it but would leave me in a better position than leaving it in an interest-bearing bank account (preferably without too much risk)? I have a little in mutual funds, which has been very good this year, and some in short term CDs, but that's it. I also have about $50K in educational debt (no other debts), but it's not accruing interest as long as I'm still in school; I also don't have to pay it off while I'm in school.

      Absent greater detail (which won't be forthcoming for obvious reasons), does anyone have any helpful suggestions?

    •  This is Very Good Advice, I Hope They Listen (8+ / 0-)

      A lot of this starts with mindset. My experience has been that people aren't generally inclined to economize and save unless the impetus is "drilled", for lack of a better word, into them.  Parents play a key role in instilling this type of mindset.  It is very helpful to find hobbies, or things you enjoy, from an early age, that don't cost a lot of money. Reading is probably the cheapest thing in the world, but also the most rewarding. Writing, same thing.  If parents can instill these types of values--and they are values--in their kids, that is a great base for them to start building the type of mindset that can lead to future wealth and prosperity. It will also develop the type of discernment and resistance to the temptations of our capitalistic society  essential to avoid profligacy and needless debt.
       

      Who was Bush_Horror2004, anyway?

      by Dartagnan on Thu Jan 04, 2007 at 06:27:48 PM PDT

      •  My belief (8+ / 0-)

        Is that the problem is partly as you describe, but there are systemic factors at work too. Many of us under 35 have high costs of living, student loan debt payments, and low wages as we begin careers. This makes it difficult - though not impossible, as sarahnity shows us - to save early and often and avoid debt traps.

        I am sometimes a broken record on this, but I really believe we need to pay attention to systemic reasons why these problems exist.

        I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day
        Neither is California High Speed Rail

        by eugene on Thu Jan 04, 2007 at 06:35:46 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  systematic reasons? I think I know why (8+ / 0-)

          When was this stuff taught in school?  Shouldn't it some how be in there?  This is very important information.

          Why can't our schools have classes (or more classes) on avoding the debt traps, how to do your taxes, what car loans and mortgages are, what your credit score means?

          "Cynicism is a sorry kind of wisdom" - Barack Obama

          by pacified on Thu Jan 04, 2007 at 06:41:27 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  This stuff should be taught, but isn't (5+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            eugene, tryptamine, SallyCat, kath25, Mary Anne

            I remember them teaching us what compound interest was and how to compute it, but I sure don't remember seeing any examples like I tried to include until I was out in the world and trying to manage my own finances.  Now that kids can get credit cards when they are still in the cradle, it's downright criminal not to teach them exactly what will happen if they only pay the "minimum due" for a few months.

            Frugal Fridays, where the cheap come to chat.

            by sarahnity on Thu Jan 04, 2007 at 06:46:46 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  It should be required (3+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              eugene, SallyCat, sarahnity

              Every college student should have to go to a mandatory personal finance seminar the first week of school and another before graduation.

              Many many people get screwed for life by making bad choices in college -- credit card debt being a big one. Also, your advice on budgeting is so, so important. I know a lot of people who graduated, got big time jobs, and frittered it all away. Not good!

              "Not just with words, but with deeds." -- Barack Obama

              by kath25 on Thu Jan 04, 2007 at 07:56:19 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  That stuff is sometimes taught in school (5+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            pacified, SallyCat, sarahnity, kdrivel, kath25

            But I am not sure that education alone would solve the problems. When work is harder to find, pays less, and the costs of living are constantly rising, it limits options and pushes more people into being dependent on some form of loans and credit. When lenders are able to rig the system for their benefit it makes the situation worse. And that makes it harder for younger people to be mobile, to pursue jobs, to start saving, to invest, etc.

            I'm not saying that education is without value. But I don't think it alone will solve these problems.

            It's the same with capitalism in general. People have thought for nearly 200 years now that if you could just educate people then they'd be able to thrive in a capitalist economy. But it never happens, because it's structured to not work for everyone.

            I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day
            Neither is California High Speed Rail

            by eugene on Thu Jan 04, 2007 at 06:55:30 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Your point is well- taken (5+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          eugene, tryptamine, SallyCat, sarahnity, kath25

          The costs of obtaining a competitive education are becoming prohibitive, and we need to do something concrete and tangible to address this financial burden on people, both those being educated and those paying the bills, whether or not they're the same person.  That should be a primary focus of our newly elected.  Wages are what they are--and there are so many variances its not possible to assess them as a whole--I don't know what influence we can have in that regard, beyond the minimum. If you have ideas, pursue them. But education costs are something that can be dealt with or addressed through legislation and tax benefits. Loan programs can be revisited. Above all the ethos of this country has to get away from rewarding the privileged only.  That can only come from leadership, from whatever level necessary.

          Who was Bush_Horror2004, anyway?

          by Dartagnan on Thu Jan 04, 2007 at 06:51:18 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Well done - good stuff here... (14+ / 0-)

      As a finance professional I just wanted to say that this diary is a great recap of some of the basics.

      One addition from an oldster - don't be embarrassed about asking others for advice that have been there done that. If you trust a parent or friend or co-worker and have questions most are more than willing to share advice or where to look for info.

      Recommended...

      Anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices. Voltaire 1694-1778

      by SallyCat on Thu Jan 04, 2007 at 06:28:36 PM PDT

    •  Roth IRA is great... (9+ / 0-)

      and I think Vanguard offers its STAR fund for a minimum of $1,000.  This fund is great for beginners (it's where I started).  There are virtiually no fees or management costs (another and you get instant diversification with a historical 10% return rate.  The STAR fund is a "mutual fund of mutual funds".

      And the "compound interest" point is the most important thing in here for someone who is young.  

      A quick way I always think about it is like this:

      Historically, the market gets about an 8-10% return over time.  At this rate, after every 10 years $1 invested turns in to $2.

      So if invest just $1 age 20, it turns in to $16 by the time you're 60.

      If you wait until you're 30 to invest that $1, it will only by $8.

      I'm 26, by the way.  For some reason, I feel like I need to say that.

      "Cynicism is a sorry kind of wisdom" - Barack Obama

      by pacified on Thu Jan 04, 2007 at 06:28:46 PM PDT

    •  Thanks. Great info. (13+ / 0-)

      I'm finally beginning long term financial planning now that I have a car payment and a real end date for school (those student loans are looming...).  For now, it's as simple as making sure I have, at all times, at least 6 (though I try for 10) months of car payments saved up.  That way if anything happens, the one thing I'm responsible for I can handle.

      By biggest gripe right now is that my parents are financial messes and continually borrow from me.  They pay me back (after much cajoling) only to borrow again.

      It's hard to get a grip on my situation when my account has been halved due to loans to my parents.

      I honor that service, and I respect [McCain's] many accomplishments, even if he chooses to deny mine. Obama 6/3/08

      by AUBoy2007 on Thu Jan 04, 2007 at 06:31:06 PM PDT

      •  Ugh. (5+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        eugene, SallyCat, sarahnity, Ambrosius, kath25

        Don't you hate that?

        Whenever my dad used to try to borrow money from me, I would point out that I am far more poor than he.  It helped that my husband and I together were living off of the same amount of money that he alone made each month....  He eventually quit asking.

        "You can't expect people to have the virtue of purity when they are poor." -Bob Dylan

        by tryptamine on Thu Jan 04, 2007 at 06:55:21 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Yeah, it sucks. (5+ / 0-)

          At the same time, it's pretty much my savings because I don't live on alot and get a bi-monthly paycheck from my work through school which is enough for me.  So at least I can help them out.

          But one of these days, I'm not going to be able to, and then they'll be sorry.

          I'd be less pissed if my father would have the decency to call/e-mail me when he transfers money from my account.  I'm not in danger of overdrawing (since I'm compulsive about checking the on-line statement), but at least it would be nice since I am doing him a favor.

          I honor that service, and I respect [McCain's] many accomplishments, even if he chooses to deny mine. Obama 6/3/08

          by AUBoy2007 on Thu Jan 04, 2007 at 06:59:07 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Wow, that stinks! (5+ / 0-)

        I've always been fortunate in that I had the reverse situation.  I always knew that if I needed a short term loan, my parents would be good for it.  I never needed it, but having that safety net afforded me a lot of security.

        Makes me want to go slap your parents and say "Hey, who's the child in this family?"  (I don't mean it, I'm sure they are very nice people who just don't manage money well.)

        Frugal Fridays, where the cheap come to chat.

        by sarahnity on Thu Jan 04, 2007 at 07:02:05 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I want to slap them myself sometimes ;-) (4+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          eugene, SallyCat, sarahnity, kath25

          Yeah, they're great and I love them, but money management is not their strong suit.

          shrug

          At least I can help.  Not sure what would happen if I couldn't.

          I honor that service, and I respect [McCain's] many accomplishments, even if he chooses to deny mine. Obama 6/3/08

          by AUBoy2007 on Thu Jan 04, 2007 at 08:00:34 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Show them this diary! (3+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            eugene, sarahnity, AUBoy2007

            Or just send them the text with Sarah's advice. :-)

            "Not just with words, but with deeds." -- Barack Obama

            by kath25 on Thu Jan 04, 2007 at 08:11:55 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Seriously though (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            sarahnity

            you should talk with them about making better long-term plans. it's one thing for them to borrow now, but down the road... talk to them about life insurance or a long-term care policy. the NYTimes had a scary story about the financial ruin of children of parents who get sick. I know it's awful to think about, but...

            it will be better for them and for you if you can help right their financial ship.

            "Not just with words, but with deeds." -- Barack Obama

            by kath25 on Thu Jan 04, 2007 at 08:27:43 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  Great diary! (13+ / 0-)

      He that chooses his own path needs no map. Queen Kristina of Sweden.

      by Boppy on Thu Jan 04, 2007 at 06:32:51 PM PDT

    •  while we're talking about money... (11+ / 0-)

      if someone had $10,000 he/she would want to put away, primarily as an emergency fund, but wanting to maximize any profit possible - what's the best thing to do?
      Many people have suggested an ING CD at 5%.
      any other suggestions?

      Democracy forever teases us with the contrast between its ideals and its realities, between its heroic possibilities and its sorry achievements. ~Agnes Repplier

      by Rebelatheart on Thu Jan 04, 2007 at 06:36:32 PM PDT

      •  Depends on your needs (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        SallyCat, sarahnity, kath25

        I do love ING, but I'd also consider something like a Fidelity or UBS Money Market account. They're at 5%, and you have checks/debit cards that you can use IMMEDIATELY. No wait, and depending on what you're doing there may be some costs/fees, but that's what I consider my emergency account.

        In an emergency, I don't want to have to wait 2-3 business days.

        "I like to go into Marshall Field's in Chicago just to see all the things there are in the world that I do not want." M. Madeleva, C.S.C.

        by paxpdx on Thu Jan 04, 2007 at 07:31:33 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I invest in (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        SallyCat, sarahnity, kath25

        individual stocks plus mutual funds at 3 different companies.  I heartily recommend Vanguard and T Rowe Price.  I would put $5000 in an S & P stock index fund at either of these firms and $5000 in a European fund, preferably also an index fund, if one is offered.  

        If you go to the websites of these firms, you can look up the track records of