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Iran Has A Right To Attack Israel

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Sun Jan 07, 2007 at 09:08:06 AM PST

This is a thought experiment. Both Israel and the United States have been openly advocating and planning for the use of force to prevent Iran from acquiring nuclear weapons for some time now. This is preventive war, and is illegal under international law. According to a high-level 2004 UN panel, unilateral force is only justified in the event of an "armed attack" or if a "threatened armed attack is imminent, no other means would deflect it and the action is proportionate". For an action to qualify as ‘preemptive’ (as opposed to the uncontroversially illegal ‘preventive’), it must be in response to "incontrovertible evidence that an enemy attack is imminent". Now, it is obvious that no such evidence exists in the case of Iran. Thus, any use of force aimed at destroying Iran’s nuclear capacity would be preventive, not preemptive, and would thus be illegal.

However, let’s for a moment accept that the U.S.’ and Israel’s claims that the use of force against Iran is justified are accurate. In other words, that the threat posed by Iran to Israel and United States satisfies the conditions required to justify preemptive use of force. The point of the thought experiment is this: if we accept such a ludicrous standard governing the use of force, we cannot help but conclude that Iran has a right to send planes to bomb Jerusalem and Washington tomorrow.

The case for attacking Iran essentially rests on two main contentions: that Iran is developing nuclear weapons and that, once it has them, it will use them against Israel (either directly or through Hizbullah). I will not discuss the accuracy of the first assertion here; suffice to say that both the CIA and the IAEA (.pdf) disagree. In any event, even if we accept that Iran is developing nuclear weapons, that would not qualify for a preemptive strike, even under the ridiculous standards of Israel and the United States. If it did, we would be forced to conclude that the majority of the states on the planet (including Iran) have a right to attack America, Israel, France, Britain, India and the other members of the ‘nuclear club’.

No; what’s important is the second assertion - that, should Iran develop nuclear weapons capacity, it would use it against Israel. This is a very serious accusation and so requires plenty of evidence to back it up. The standard of evidence required is especially high because the idea that Iran would use a nuclear weapon against another nuclear state is so counter-intuitive; states don’t commit suicide. In reality, the only ‘evidence’ used to suggest that Iran would use a nuclear weapon is a few statements by President Ahmadinejad to the effect that the ‘Zionist regime’ will be destroyed. Therefore, by this standard, all we have to do to show that Iran would be justified in sending fighter jets to bomb Washington and Jerusalem is provide stronger evidence than a few abstract statements by a populist President who has no authority of matters of war or nuclear policy of a country that hasn’t the ability to carry out those threats even if they were sincere that Israel and the U.S. pose a real threat to Iran.

That shouldn’t be too hard to do. Israeli politicians (who most definitely do have authority over such matters) have been openly saying for months that, if dialogue fails to persuade Iran to halt uranium enrichment, Israel will not hesitate to use force. Statements by Israeli officials branding a nuclear Iran as "intolerable" and sanctioning the use of force in order to prevent one developing are numerous and sincere. Deputy Defense Minister Ephraim Sneh has been particularly prominent, declaring that the Iranian nuclear programme must be stopped "at all costs", noting further that although military action is a "last resort", the "last resort is sometimes the only resort". Moreover, unlike Iran, Israel has the ability to carry out its threats and, unlike Iran, which has not attacked a country outside its border for over 200 years, Israel has repeatedly shown a willingness to use aggressive force to further its strategic objectives.

Likewise, the U.S. has made it clear that it has no objection in principle to a military strike on Iran. For example, President Bush recently declared that he would "understand" if Israel chose to attack Iran, and has refused to rule out military action, stating that "all options are on the table." Meanwhile John Bolton, then U.S. ambassador to the UN, promised Iran "painful and tangible consequences" if it failed to halt enrichment.

But the threat posed by the U.S. and Israel has gone far beyond mere rhetoric. As I wrote in a previous post:

In September the U.S. started to plan the deployment of a major "strike group" of battleships to the Persian Gulf. In October, the U.S. led a naval war game off the Iranian coast intended to display to Iran both military might and aggressive intent, whilst a couple of days ago newspapers reported that both Britain and the U.S. are sending additional warships and fighter planes to the Gulf. The message couldn’t be clearer: if the sanctions don’t stop you, our military will.

Today, the Sunday Times reports that Israel is planning a nuclear strike on Iran. According to the Times, two Israeli air force squadrons are training to blow up an Iranian nuclear facility using ‘tactical’ nuclear weapons (or "bunker busters"). According to one of the Times’ sources inside the Israeli military,

"As soon as the green light is given, it will be one mission, one strike and the Iranian nuclear project will be demolished".

Indeed, Israeli pilots have already flown to Gibraltar in recent weeks to train for the journey to Iran, for which three possible routes have already been mapped out.

Israel’s Foreign Ministry has denied the report, claiming,

"The focus of the Israeli activity today is to give full support to diplomatic actions and the expeditious and full implementation of Security Council resolution 1737. If diplomacy succeeds, the problem can be solved peaceably."

Except...that isn’t really a denial, is it? The question is: what if diplomacy doesn’t succeed? Olmert has refused to comment on the story, as has Avigdor Lieberman, the minister in charge of the Iranian ’strategic threat’. Their silence speaks volumes.

In America, House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer confirmed once again that the use of force against Iran remains an option. "I’ve not ruled that out," he said. Writing in Foreign Affairs, Ze’ev Schiff (chief military correspondent for Ha’aretz) reports that, despite pursuing diplomatic solutions to end the crisis, Israel has ‘nonetheless continued to relentlessly develop its military options’.

In short, Israel and the U.S. have not only talked about attacking Iran (although they have certainly done that; they have already started to translate those verbal threats into action on the ground. It cannot be seriously doubted that Israel and the U.S. pose a far greater threat to Iran than vice versa. Iranian citizens have far more justification to feel afraid than their Israeli and American counterparts. When Ephraim Sneh declares that Israel will stop Iran’s nuclear programme "at all costs", Iranians know that the "costs" could well be their lives.

I am not here advocating an Iranian ‘preemptive’ strike on Israel or the U.S. But those who argue for a U.S./Israeli first-strike on Iran should be, at least if they have even a modicum of respect for the basic moral principle of universality (that we apply to ourselves the same standards we apply to others, if not more stringent ones - to paraphrase Noam Chomsky). Those that don't - at last count, all of them - should not be taken seriously.

Cross-posted at The Heathlander

Tags: Iran, WMD, nuclear weapons, Israel, Middle East, U.S., foreign policy, war (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 222 comments

  •  Of course (8+ / 0-)

    ‘lil georgie has been rattling sabres at Iran for six years now. It’s absurd to believe they’d not be thinking about defending themselves.

  •  nope (12+ / 0-)

    Iran has no right to attack Israel or the US because the US has no right to attack Iran. It also had no right to attack Iraq. All this attacking people bullshit is really pissing me off. Aren't we just a little more civilized than that yet?

    The US is the bully of the world and we all know that eventually the bully gets what s/he's been dishing out - and sometimes tenfold. That doesn't excuse it or imply that the bully deserves it - 2 wrongs don't make a right, according to my 2nd grade teacher - it's just that every action has a consequence and the consequence of beating up on people will eventually see you with a big ole bloody nose.

    Peace. Is it impossible?

    Thanks for the thought provoking diary.

    ehem, troops out now please.

    by lil love on Sun Jan 07, 2007 at 09:16:37 AM PST

  •  I/P diary flame war coming,just a heads up (11+ / 0-)

    Bush is once again flat out lying about the need for this attack. (his attack on Iran to come, not the premptive one the Iranians can't(at present) do)

    Unfortunately,the planning for this is well along.

    Israel will fly one set of missions,Saudi Arabia will fly the others and the US carrier groups will do CCC and back up the mission.

    Then comes an occupation of the oil/gas fields.

    Israel is a partner,possibly the point  spear carrier in the attack.

    They have 200 nukes,or so. They are probably swapping the city demolition types for US inventory or those deep penetrators or "tactical" types that will hit the targets Bush wants to scorch.

    If the US Congress goes along with this they have sacrificed us all into another world of misery. We won't escape here the consequence of a massive killing spree like that. Bush thinks he can hide in Paraguay, but we still willbe dealing wirth his and the neocon/Likudnik lunacy.

    The Iranians don't have their own bombs now,but they could buy them fdrom Pakistan or NK or disgruntlerd former USSR states that need cash.

    The bombing is a pretxt for occupying the gas fielkds, jusytlike the 14 permanent bases is a way of controlling Iraq's oil output.

    Did I say, Bush is lying about reasons and strategies for the Iran attack?

    cast away illusions, prepare for struggle

    by Pete Rock on Sun Jan 07, 2007 at 09:20:44 AM PST

    •  What scares me the most, is the (8+ / 0-)

      Dems deafening silence....and all those Israeli trips.

      Will the elite be happy living behind gated communities in the potential meltdown? Peace now. -7.00, -2.92

      by mattes on Sun Jan 07, 2007 at 09:55:50 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Not deafening silence (13+ / 0-)

        I wish it was deafening silence. In fact the Dems have been falling over themselves to declare their unqualified support for Israeli military aggression, as with Lebanon and Operation Summer Rains. And in this article I quoted the new House Majority Leader and Maryland Democrat to the effect that force against Iran remains an option.

        •  Pelosi a rubberstamp for AIPAC... (3+ / 0-)

          Other Voices on the Extremism of Pelosi, and in Her Own Words and Deeds

          "Pelosi Win Not a Progressive Victory"
          An excellent article by Stephen Zunes

          Zunes clearly delineates how Pelosi's assent to a leadership position is not a progressive victory.  
          Excerpts:

          When Amnesty International released a report harshly critical of Israel's brutal re-invasion of the Occupied Territories in October 2002, Pelosi, a member of the so-called Human Rights Caucus in Congress, rushed to the side of fundamentalist right-winger Congressman Tom Delay, Republican from Texas, supporting his resolution in support of Israeli military actions, and effectively attacking the credibility of Amnesty International.  
          She then went on to support a resolution for increasing military aid to Israel.

          Read more here.  

          Pelosi voices support for Apartheid Wall in West Bank.

          The 400 mile apartheid wall (see more on Wall here) being built by Israel mostly inside the West Bank, is prompting much criticism from normally quiet, acquiescent governments, including even (muted) protests from the Bush administration (Bush describes it as a "problem", because it "snakes through the West Bank", and has even threatened to decrease loan guarantees because of the Wall).  Currently the International Court of Justice, better known as the World Court, is considering a case regarding its legality.  

          Yet here again Pelosi leaps to the side of Sharon.  She has signed a letter that says that there should be no pressure on Israel to conform to International Law.  The letter puts it more deceptively, of course, and it says "the U.S. must never pressure Israel to take a position or action which would jeopardize the security of its citizens."    See the full letter here.  We see here another example of Pelosi positioning herself to the political right of Bush.  

          Pelosi Defends Assassination as a Political Tool.  
          In a move many see as encouraging ever-escalating violence in the Middle East, Nancy Pelosi has endorsed the targeted killing of Palestinian resistance leaders.   She chastised President's Bush mild (and qualified) rebuke of the Sharon regimes use of U.S. Apache Helicopters in "targeted killing" (actually, missile strikes in densely populated neighborhoods, that usually result in the death of many bystanders)  of leaders of resistance groups, where Bush said he was "troubled" and said that they may impede progress towards peace.
           
          See the San Francisco Chronicle report on Pelosi's extremist stand here.

          Pelosi speaks before the American-Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC)

          In April of 2003, Pelosi spoke to AIPAC, the self-described "most important organization affecting America's relationship with Israel".   In this speech, she again reiterated her commitment to Israel's security: "America's commitment to the safety and security of the State of Israel is unwavering."   Left out was any mentioning of the security of the Palestinian people whose land Israel Occupies.

          More Excerpts and some questions:

          Pelosi says: "No injustice, real or imagined, can ever justify, and no future can ever be built upon, the calculated slaughter of innocents."  

          To which I would respond with these simple questions, does that include the calculated destruction of homes and farms of innocents by U.S.-supplied bulldozers by the Israeli military?   Does that mean she is saying no to the use of a U.S. helicopter gunship on the children protesting the destruction of their homes in Rafah, Gaza? (See Here)  

          And when Pelosi says this:

          "The world must never accept in Jerusalem, Tel Aviv, or Haifa what the world would not tolerate in London, Washington, New York or San Francisco."  

          I ask this:

          Pelosi, why do you accept, indeed, endorse, the kinds of disregard for human rights by the Israeli military in Rafah, Nablus, Jenin,  Palestine what the world would not accept elsewhere?  Could this not be the root of the violence and insecurity you supposedly deplore?  

          http://www.tomjoad.org/...

  •  Unilateralism will bite us in the ass (9+ / 0-)

    When we demand the right to unilaterally interfere in another country's affairs, other countries can justify doing that as well. That's part of the reason why Saddam invaded Kuwait. He wanted to have the same right to unilaterally impose a government on another country, in this case, Kuwait. We need to stop setting such a bad example and be responsible global citizens.

  •  Fair enough (9+ / 0-)

    Iran has as much right to attack Israel as Israel has the right to attack Iran...

    but it is Iran who does not recognize Israel's right to exist, not the other way around and it is Iran who started this cycle of threats against Israel.

    And it's obvious to any unbiased observer that if Israel did not feel threatened by Iran it would not even occur to them to attack Iran, Iran on the other side was NOT threatened by Israel in any way, shape or form when it started its anti-Israel campaign.

    •  I would phrase it differently.. (4+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      object16, weasel, Geekesque, epppie

      "Iran has as much right to attack Israel as Israel has the right to attack Iran..."

      Iran has a little right to attack Israel as Israel has to attack Iran.

    •  Let's consider their track records. (17+ / 0-)

      Iran hasn't invaded another country since 1826, even though its sacred "right to exist" has been violated by Russia, Britain and the U.S. time and time again. Israel on the other hand has launched "preemptive" and/or simply aggressive strikes against its neighbors almost too many times to note here, including last year's appalling massacre of Lebanese civilians. Most notably, it bombed Iraq's Osirak reactor in 1981 -- for which it was condemned by the U.N. for being "in clear violation of the Charter of the United Nations and the norms of international conduct."

      So tell me again who "started" all this conflict?

      •  Nope, sorry, you're wrong: (4+ / 0-)

        you're bringing up relevent history there in an attempt to give context to the current political crisis.
        That's not allowed, I'm afraid. Try again.

      •  Sure, no problem (3+ / 0-)

        I will gladly tell you again who started this conflict - Iran did.

        History is certainly important but so are facts and the fact is Iran did not recognize Israel's right to exist, the fact is Iran started threatening to wipe Israel off the map when it was not threatened by Israel and had no territorial or other disputes with Israel.

        PS don't forget that Iran was at war with Iraq so they are no "pacifists" by any stretch of imagination.

        •  Thank you for illustrating the.. (9+ / 0-)

          ..mindset perfectly, dvo. There's 'history', and then there's 'facts'. The two are mutually exclusive, it seems.

          Iraq attacked Iran, with our support, not the other way around.

          •  are you denying the fact (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Pumpkinlove, Corwin Weber

            that Iran threatened Israel first? Are you denying the fact that Iran does not recognize Israel, not the other way around?

            •  Dvo.. (8+ / 0-)

              ..it's quite simple: IF you think a few statements by Ahmadinejad to the effect that the 'Zionist regime' will be destroyed justifies the first-use of military force, you cannot but also argue that Iran should have started bombing Israel months ago. Israel's threats are far more serious because a) the people making them have the power and authority to carry them out and b) Israel has the capacity to carry them out, whereas Iran does not.

              More importantly, Israel and the U.S. have moved beyond mere words, and have actually started detailed planning for an attack. The U.S. has moved beyond even that, actually going so far as to begin to build up forces in the Persian Gulf.

              So the case for an Iranian attack on Israel and the U.S. is far stronger than the case for a U.S./Israeli attack on Iran. The fact is, preventive war is not justified at all, by either side. What I pointed out in the diary above is that it is logically incoherent to support a 'preemptive' strike on Iran whilst opposing an Iranian strike on Israel.

              •  first of all (3+ / 0-)

                the situation between the US and Iran is not the same as the situation between Israel and Iran and I was talking about the later. The US did indeed threaten Iran first, but Israel did not.

                Other than that, what you are basically saying is that  if (god forbid) you had a dispute with your neighbor and that neighbor promised repeatedly to wipe you and your family out and then you saw your neighbor buying all kinds of guns and promising that heathlander's days are numbered - you'd still rest assured that nothing bad will happen to you ...because your neighbor does not have a criminal record?

                That does not make any sense, does it but that's what you expect Israel to do. You take an unsubstantiated article in a newspaper at face value but want Israel to ignore repeated threats and insults by the leader of a "hostile" state.

                •  Well, you haven't addressed most of the (5+ / 0-)

                  points I raised.

                  The one you did address, you evidently failed to understand correctly.

                  "Other than that, what you are basically saying is that  if (god forbid) you had a dispute with your neighbor and that neighbor promised repeatedly to wipe you and your family out and then you saw your neighbor buying all kinds of guns and promising that heathlander's days are numbered - you'd still rest assured that nothing bad will happen to you ...because your neighbor does not have a criminal record?"

                  The correct analogy would be if your neighbour was disabled and had no use of his arms or legs.

                  Iran, even if the threats were sincere, has not the ability to carry them out.

                  •  Tell that to the Jews (0+ / 0-)

                    Iran, even if the threats were sincere, has not the ability to carry them out.

                    who were recently killed by rocket attacks from Hizbollah. Tell that to the Iraqis who regularly die from Iranian made bombs.
                    Iran is weaker than the US, but hardly incapacitated, and with Nukes would become quite a bully indeed...

                    http://www.shieldofachilles.net

                    by Rohan on Mon Jan 08, 2007 at 12:37:12 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

            •  let's end (11+ / 0-)

              this crap once and for all.

              Iran has every right and it's their prerogative to deny regocnition of the state of Israel.

              It's a political decision and they live with the consequences.

              China does not recognize Taiwan. They have political differences.

              The Republic of Northern Cyprus is not a recognized nation even though they declared independence 30 years ago. Why doesn't Israel recognize them? Why are they denying their right to exist?

              If the Basques declare independence from Spain, how many countries are going to recognize them? That, doesn't mean that people would rather see them dead.

              Diplomacy can solve most of these problems. War will solve none.

              "It takes two to lie. One to lie, one to hear it." Homer Simpson

              by Euroliberal on Sun Jan 07, 2007 at 10:56:23 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  absolutely (3+ / 0-)

                The fact is Iran does not recognize Israel, the fact is Iran threatened Israel first. These are the only points I was making as they clearly demonstrate that there is no moral equivalency between Israeli and Iranian actions.

                As far as diplomacy is concerned - I certainly hope you are right and I am sure Israel is not that eager to have a war with Iran either. But you (Europeans) have been trying diplomacy with Iran for 3-4 years now, have not you? Unfortunately you have absolutely nothing to show for your efforts, Iran has turned down every single proposal and is laughing in your faces while it keeps working on its nuclear program.

            •  Well (0+ / 0-)

              If heathlander is not I certainly am.

              Best Wishes, Demena Left/Right: -8.38; Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.36

              by Demena on Sun Jan 07, 2007 at 02:34:21 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

        •  Saudis and Pakistanians don't (7+ / 0-)

          recognize Israel either....and we pay Egypt alot of money to recognize Israel.

          Will the elite be happy living behind gated communities in the potential meltdown? Peace now. -7.00, -2.92

          by mattes on Sun Jan 07, 2007 at 10:44:45 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Stop with the known lies. (0+ / 0-)

          "... the fact is Iran started threatening to wipe Israel off the map when it was not threatened by Israel and had no territorial or other disputes with Israel."

          This is known to be untrue.  Their (not very powerful) president did say it.  Iran has repeatedly said the opposite.

          If you are going to hold the nation responsible for what its president (or any other government member) says you better tend to your own knitting first.

          Best Wishes, Demena Left/Right: -8.38; Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.36

          by Demena on Sun Jan 07, 2007 at 02:33:40 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Forget about Iran's history of sponsoring (0+ / 0-)

        terror against Jews in places like Argentina and their placement of 10,000 missiles in Southern Lebanon.

        "[R]ather high-minded, if not a bit self-referential"--The Washington Post.

        by Geekesque on Sun Jan 07, 2007 at 11:40:07 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  I'll interrupt with some "inconvenient" history (0+ / 0-)

        of my own...

        1. The US or Israel have never invaded Iran either (there was one aborted hostage rescue mission under Pres Carter, but that's about it)
        1. Russia and the UK did invade Iran, although that was in 1941 to prevent them from joining the Nazis
        1. The Israeli attack in 1981 was against Iraq, not Iran (I know the names probably look similar to you)
        1. Iran has done its share of preemptive strikes as well, you, like many others here seem to keep forgetting just who trains and bankrolls the Hizbollah

        http://www.shieldofachilles.net

        by Rohan on Mon Jan 08, 2007 at 12:54:02 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  That's not inconvenient at all (0+ / 0-)

          although it is misleading. The U.S. backed a coup in 1953 that toppled that democratically elected Mossadegh and replaced him with the dictatorial Shah. The U.S. then supported the brutal Shah throughout his reign, and were mightily disappointed when the Iranian people finally rose up to overthrow him in 1979.

          Yes, the Israeli attack at Osirak was against Iraq, not Iran. Who said otherwise?

          Yes, Iran (together with, to a lesser extent, Syria) finances the Hizbullah. So? If by 'preemptive attack' you were referring to Hizbullah's attack on soldiers this summer, Iran had nothing to do with it. In fact, Iran would have wanted Hizbullah to wait. But anyway, that attack was not preemptive. It was part of a long-running minor border conflict, and was aimed at securing the release of some prisoners. But anyway, like I say: if you think Iran's financing of Hizbullah justifies a 'preemptive' attack, then you must have been arguing for an Iranian attack on the U.S. months ago, since it is not controversial that the U.S. gives massive military aid to Israel, and it is likewise uncontroversial that Israel has been threatening Iran.

          •  Sigh (0+ / 0-)

            That's the point. The argument that "Iran hasn't invaded another country since 1826" was pretty damn misleading too...

            And I'm glad you're satisfied Iran had "nothing to do with" the attempts to kidnap Israelis to trade them for terrorists (which you call "attempt to secure prisoners"), but frankly I need a little more proof than just your word for it...

            Anyway, your whole argument is an exercise in relativism run to absurdity. The UK and France also threatened Germany before 1939. Does that mean the grievances on both sides were equal?

            Israelis just want to survive with Iran, while Iran wants to survive without an Israel. The two situations are in now way equal or comparable.

            http://www.shieldofachilles.net

            by Rohan on Mon Jan 08, 2007 at 01:51:28 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  asdf (0+ / 0-)

              "And I'm glad you're satisfied Iran had "nothing to do with" the attempts to kidnap Israelis to trade them for terrorists (which you call "attempt to secure prisoners"), but frankly I need a little more proof than just your word for it..."

              Well, just read the latest edition of Foreign Affairs, which contains an article by Ze'ev Schiff (very well connected chief military correspondent for Ha'aretz) saying,

              'From Iran's perspective, accordingly, the conflict [in Lebanon this Summer] started too soon. Contrary to conventional wisdom, Tehran did not give Hezbollah's leader, Sheik Hassan Nasrallah, permission to launch a major operation against Israel on July 12.'

              Another article by Volker Perthes also pointed to Hizbullah acting on its own behalf, this time writing that Syria did not give permission:

              'Despite a flurry of charges to the contrary, the Syrian government hardly "commissioned" Hezbollah's abduction of two Israeli soldiers on July 12...Most likely, high-level Syrian officials did not know about the July 12 raid until after it happened.'

              You say:

              "Anyway, your whole argument is an exercise in relativism run to absurdity. The UK and France also threatened Germany before 1939. Does that mean the grievances on both sides were equal?"

              That's ridiculous, I'm afraid. The point is, I would have thought, quite simple: people are arguing for a preemptive strike on Iran based on a) their suspicion that it is trying to get a nuclear weapon and b) that it would attack Israel if it had one. The 'evidence' for the latter assertion comes down to a couple of statements from Ahmadinejad.
              I'm saying that if that is that standard for preemptive war, Iran should have started bombing Israel and the U.S. months ago, because unquestionable both of those countries have nuclear weapons and both have threatened to attack Iran.

              "Israelis just want to survive with Iran, while Iran wants to survive without an Israel. The two situations are in now way equal or comparable."

              That's just a nonsensical platitude, and you haven't even bothered to try and back it up (because you can't).

              •  No problem (0+ / 0-)

                As far a Hizbollah goes, heck I'll even give your point. Now lets talk about the thousands of other times over the years that Iran has ordered Hizbollah to commit atocities. I don't think Iran supplied their weapons to be used in parades only...

                Next, show we where Israeli commandos or terrorists are attacking civilian targets inside Iran. Show me where Israel is secretly funneling arms to Iranian Jews to destabilize the government.

                "Israelis just want to survive with Iran, while Iran wants to survive without an Israel. The two situations are in now way equal or comparable."

                That's just a nonsensical platitude, and you haven't even bothered to try and back it up (because you can't).

                Can't back it up? Are you kidding? Show me anywhere, where any Israeli government official has said he wants to destroy Iran, or wipe Iran off the map. On the other hand, Iran has made its intentions pretty clear, even if you didn't have the statement from its President (which we do). If you really need more proof, I would be happy to send you hundreds of references of Iranian officials, and even Iranian schoolchildren chanting "death to Israel". I promise you, they don't mean it as a sign of affection.

                http://www.shieldofachilles.net

                by Rohan on Mon Jan 08, 2007 at 08:25:42 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  No, they don't (1+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  callmecassandra

                  they mean as a sign of hatred. But hating a country is not the same as posing a threat to it. As I have repeatedly said, Israel poses far more of a threat to Iran than the other way around.

                  The fact that Iran provides weapons to Hizbullah does not change that. Hizbullah is a Lebanese organisation, formed in response to the Israeli occupation of Lebanon starting from 1982. It is now fighting an extremely limited war, aimed at getting roughly 15 (I think) prisoners returned and forcing Israel to return the Sheba'a farms.

                  That's not in the same league as the threat Israel poses to Iran. The most Hizbullah have done before this summer (and since the occupation) is fire a few rockets at military bases and abduct a few civilians and soldiers. Again, I'm not dismissing that or saying it doesn't matter. But we're talking about real, serious threats to Israeli national security, of roughly the same severity of the threat that Israel poses to Iran. As I hope to have demonstrated, that just doesn't exist.

                  You ask if Israel has given weapons/funds to Iranian Jews. I doubt it. What does that prove? I've already documented numerous statements by Israeli officials - including the Prime Minister and Deputy Defense Minister - threatening violence against Iran. We can all agree that, unlike Iran, Israel has the capability to carry out these threats. Moreover, there is an increasing body of evidence to show that Israel and its principle backer, the United States, have already started the put the military plans we know they have developed into action.

                  If you look on the Iranian side, all you have is a couple of statements by a weak, populist President.

      •  So completely wrong (0+ / 0-)

        Iran has been at war with the west since 1979.

        Seizing another country's embassy and holding its staff hostage is an act of war. Iran has been and is at war with the US. The opening of every session of the Iranian Parliment begins with chants of 'Death to America'.

        Iran attacked Israel through their well subsidized Hezbollah proxy just this past summer, that is an act of war.

        Iran is currently subsidizing the Iraqi terrorist groups attacking Iraqi's today, that is an act of war.

        Wake up and pay attention. The Mullah's are far from a peaceful regime.

    •  Wrong missleading Comment (0+ / 0-)

      Its Iran powerless sock-puppet Prez that says those Terrible Things!

      "Spell check helps, dyslexia still wins"

      by npbeachfun on Sun Jan 07, 2007 at 12:03:09 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  This is a predjudiced view, no? (0+ / 0-)

      but it is Iran who does not recognize Israel's right to exist, not the other way around and it is Iran who started this cycle of threats against Israel.

      Part of being an independant nation and signatory to the NPT (which Israel is not!) allows Iran to develop peaceful nuclear resources.

      Anyone saying this is illegitimate (including Bush and the US) is not recognising Iran as a free and independant nation.

      Best Wishes, Demena Left/Right: -8.38; Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.36

      by Demena on Sun Jan 07, 2007 at 02:29:54 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  I think you are right. (6+ / 0-)

    As far as I know, we have persistently threatened them, for years now, far more than they have threatened us.  If preventive action is justified, it is justified for Iran.  

    But, of course, as so often happens, the US is counting on the real, unwritten rule of international law, as understood by the neocons and by the realpolitikers (the Kissinger school):  might makes right.

    What we are observing may be the greatest international game of folly in the history of humankind.

    The world dearly loves a cage.

    by epppie on Sun Jan 07, 2007 at 09:27:46 AM PST

    •  yep (7+ / 0-)

      What we are observing may be the greatest international game of folly in the history of humankind.

      "Let us not be conservative with compassion. Be generous with compassion."

      by ilyana on Sun Jan 07, 2007 at 09:32:50 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  huh??? We have threatened them? (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      dvo, epppie

      I don't recall there being WEEKLY "death to Iran" parades going through New York City.

      We have long made clear that a state of war is not a blank check for the President when it comes to the rights of our citizens. - U.S. Supreme Court, 2004

      by RyneSandberg on Sun Jan 07, 2007 at 09:56:26 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Well (7+ / 0-)

        We actually shot down one of their airliners and never bothered to even apologize.  We've also more recently had missile hits in their territory.

      •  We have a *Representative Government (5+ / 0-)

        our leaders speak for us whether we like it or not, and it gets that much worse when our presidents don't really believe in Democracy.  Our Representative leaders can't even rule out nuclear bombing Iran.  That's pretty "death to Iran" in my book.

        And sanctions are death by starvation, as the first Bush and Clinton showed in Iraq and North Korea.

        (-7.00, -6.21) Jobs, Liberty, Peace.

        by Nulwee on Sun Jan 07, 2007 at 10:04:30 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  If you read (10+ / 0-)

        you'll see that I provided nuermous links to both verbal and physical threats, including increasing troop levels in the Persian Gulf. Can you imagine if Iran started sending fighter jets and battleships to deploy off the coast of the U.S.?

      •  I take it you are referring to this: (7+ / 0-)

        "U military attaches walk out at Iran parade

        Thursday, September 22, 2005 - ©2005 IranMania.com
        Related Pictures

        LONDON, September 22 (IranMania) - EU military attaches walked out in protest at a parade in Tehran Thursday after ballistic missiles were rolled past carrying vitriolic anti-US and Israeli slogans, diplomats told AFP.

        "There was a common position among the European Union members that, if the military parade included any slogans that attacked our allies, we would leave," said a diplomat.

        "The military attaches from the embassies of France, Italy, Greece and Poland were present at the parade, and when they saw the slogans they promptly left," said another diplomat.

        At the parade, Iran showed off six of its Shahab-3 medium-range ballistic missiles sporting banners reading "Death to America", "We will crush America under our feet", "Death to Israel" and "Israel must be wiped off the face of the earth".

        "They may be just slogans, but for us they are unacceptable," one of the diplomats said.

        The military event was held just south of Tehran to mark the start of "Sacred Defence Week", dedicated to the hundreds of thousands of Iranians killed after the forces of former Iraqi president Saddam Hussein invaded in It also coincided with mounting tensions between Iran and the EU over Tehran's nuclear a"

        http://www.iranmania.com/...

        And you have a good point.  But there has been a consistent pattern of threatening Iran, officially and unofficially, by both the Israel and US administration for years now (not to mention that we helped Iraq attack Iran in the past) AND we have been inserting forces in Iran and have been supporting what I'm sure they view as domestic terrorists.

        So I suggest you cut the oneside bs.

        The world dearly loves a cage.

        by epppie on Sun Jan 07, 2007 at 10:11:41 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Actually, its more than weekly (0+ / 0-)

        I thought it went out of style in the 80s, but ABC News did a report on it recently. "Death to America" is still a regular rallying cry at Iranian schools. Even with children who are far too young to even know what America is.

        I don't recall any US government sponsored "death to Iran", "death to Iraq", or even "death to Muslims" rallies.

        So I don't know what twilight zone universe "epppie" is living in...

        http://www.shieldofachilles.net

        by Rohan on Mon Jan 08, 2007 at 12:31:26 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  You have alot of nerve (8+ / 0-)

    laying out the NeoCONs' hypocrisy so well..
    But many people may not be able to get past your title, it is so confrontational.

    On the other hand, perhaps some "shock" therapy is needed to get more of us past the illusions created by those selling and promoting very expensive wasteful weapons.  

    "Let us not be conservative with compassion. Be generous with compassion."

    by ilyana on Sun Jan 07, 2007 at 09:30:38 AM PST

  •  Congratulations... (4+ / 0-)

    ...this thought experiment also justifies the Six-Day War in 1967, and Israel's gains from that war. Again, a response to saber-rattling, trade sanctions, and the massing of armed forces by enemies. Consider the implications.

    Mattes, something for you to think about.

  •  Threatening words aren't enough (5+ / 0-)

    I remember Krushchev saying "We will bury you."  Never happened, and the U.S. never nuked them.  Neither side has the right for preventative war.

  •  Two wrongs don't make a right (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    npbeachfun

    And an eye for an eye makes ... the three-eyed man king?

    Even though I'd agree hypothetically, Iran - and many other nations as well - have the right to preemptively attack Israel and the U.S.  I'd still have to say, from my own moral perspective, no nation should have the "right" to attack another one - ever.  If you extrapolate far enough, all attack, even the seemingly well intended or deserved, eventually are attacks on the entire world.

  •  bad sources, illogical premise (4+ / 0-)

    The London Sunday Times doesn't exactly have a sterling reputation for accurate reporting. Meanwhile, no other media institutions have confirmed the report.

    Now, that doesn't necessarily mean the report is untrue but...(http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/01/07/europe/EU-GEN-Britain-Israel-Iran.php)

    -Israel has already said they do not have the ability to bomb Iran's nuclear sites. This was a matter of public debate a few months ago and Isreali military analysts both privately and publically decided that Iran's multiple sites (possibly hundreds) were too dispersed to attack.

    But Iran's program may be far more difficult to cripple as it is believed to be distributed over many sites and in part deep underground.

    -If Israel did plan a bunker buster attack, they would certainly not advertise that fact.

    -Most Israeli analysts believe the best option to deal with Iran's nuclear program is to wait till all Iranian nuclear components are assembled. At somepoint they have to be brought from underground and put toghether from the many sites around Iran. It would be at that point that Israel would strike.

    -Knowing this, Iran is unlikely to try to assemble the nuclear components.

    I'm just saying, although it is possible that Israel would attack Iran with a nuclear bunker buster, it defies all logic and conventional wisdom. I would like to see someone confirm the London Times Story.

  •  FYI (5+ / 0-)

    "I refuse to believe that anyone here would consider using nuclear weapons against Iran," Reuven Pedatzur, a prominent defense analyst and columnist for the daily Haaretz, told the AP. "It is possible that this was a leak done on purpose, as deterrence, to say ’someone better hold us back, before we do something crazy."’

    (source)

  •  Why can't Iran just be smart... (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    object16, khereva, howardx, lemming22

    ...and take a page from the Israeli playbook. Take some of their massive oil wealth and invest it into the American political system.  Purchase some goodwill, some understanding and some politicians.  Eventually, the political playing field will even out and at that point, the realization that the U.S. won't back any and every play Israel makes, no matter how drastic or monsterous, will give Israel pause in considering any unbacked and mutually destructive aggression.  Grudging peace will settle on the region.

    Bonus, it's a lot cheaper to "invest" in the American political system than it is to grow your own nuclear arsenal.

  •  I don't think (4+ / 0-)

    that people who endorse an attack on Iran support the theory of universality.

    What would prevent Captain America from being a hero "Death, Maybe" Si vis pacem, para bellum

    by Doughnutman on Sun Jan 07, 2007 at 09:52:27 AM PST

  •  As I recall... (5+ / 0-)

    Didn't Iran start the tough rhetoric?

    Way before Israel started talking about bombing Iran, the Iranian president was talking about "wiping Israel off the face of the earth".

    October 29, 2005 or
    Al Jazeera

    President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad quoted the Ayatollah Khomeini, founder of Iran's Islamic revolution, saying that Israel "must be wiped out from the map of the world."

    April 15, 2006

    Like it or not, the Zionist regime is heading toward annihilation," Ahmadinejad told the conference. "The Zionist regime is a rotten, dried tree that will be eliminated by one storm."

    Oct. 20, 2006

    Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said Friday that Israel no longer had any reason to exist and would soon disappear.

    January 07, 2007

    Iran's ultraconservative president -- spurning international outrage over his remarks about Israel -- joined more than a million demonstrators who flooded the streets of the capital and other major cities Friday to back his call for the destruction of the Jewish state.

    Americans are killed almost every day in Iraq because of Iran.  They import IEDs, anti-aircraft missles, and special forces soldiers to fight us... I'm sorry, there isn't an excuse in the world or a moral-equavalency large enough to overlook that.

    Try not to forget all that as you all gleefully wait to jump on the anti-Israel/Pro-Iran bandwagon...

    My freedom is more important than your good idea. - Bumper Sticker

    by Captain Infidel on Sun Jan 07, 2007 at 10:00:49 AM PST

  •  No evidence?!? (6+ / 6-)

    "Now, it is obvious that no such evidence [for Iran's plan to nuke Israel] exists."

    Nothing except the spoke word of the last two presidents, Rafsanjani and Ahmadinajad, who both have said oopnely that Iran should and will nuke Israel and they don't care about counterstrikes but Iran can take a few nukes and anyone on their side who dies will go straight to paradise so it will be worth it. And then there is Iran's refusal to cooperate with the UN and all the announcements they've made about increasing their centrifuge and how they will be nuking Israel at the spring solstice.

    But hey, those are just words and they're only talking about nuking 6 million Jews and the holocaust never happened and Jews always ask for whatever they get anyway so who cares, right? Let Iran nuke Israel. And then we'll just deny those six million who die as well so it won't matter.

    Don't you at least care about all those poor oppressed Palestinians living right next door who will also be nuked? Or if they get nuked that's okay because they all want to be martyrs anyway and they'll be dying to kill Jews so it is worth it.

    You are disgusting and your casual mental exercise about your willingness to allow Israel to be nuked is even more disgusting. I wonder how you woould feel about it if you lived in Tel Aviv and had a madman daily threatening to wipe you off the map for no other reason than that you are a Jew.

  •  They don't have a right to attack (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Hornito, npbeachfun, heathlander

    Neither for that matter does Israel.  Both states have a right to defend themselves from attack.  I'll leave it at that.  

  •  I do not believe that Iran has the right to (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    npbeachfun, heathlander

    attack Israel, but Bush surely must. It's the logic of the infamous Bush Doctrine that has so dirtied this country = the "right" to wage a preemptive war on any purported threat, no matter how remote in reality or how distant in a fantasy future.

    We're shocked by a naked nipple, but not by naked aggression.

    by Lepanto on Sun Jan 07, 2007 at 10:52:17 AM PST

  •  New Era of Nuclear Wars (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    bluewolverine, heathlander

    One thing that no one seems to have pointed out is that if Israel goes ahead with this they are performing a nice real-world test of these kind of weapons that everyone can look at and use to design tactics.  So Pakistan, India, North Korea and the rest of the nuclear club get to see just what happens when you use a 1kt deep penetrator in terms of fallout, blast effects, casualties, etc... The conclusion could well be "see, nukes aren't so bad after all, Israel nuked those Iranian plants and the world didn't end".  From this we could see a new era of nuclear war as an extension of conventional tactics with of course a gradual escalation in the power of the devices.  If 1kt isn't so bad why not 2?

    I really hope this story is just Israeli propaganda.

    Then did he raise on high the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch, saying, "Bless this, O Lord, that with it thou mayst blow thine enemies to tiny bits, in thy mercy."

    by Event Horizon on Sun Jan 07, 2007 at 11:03:40 AM PST

    •  Well, we can get SOME idea of what the (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      npbeachfun

      effects would be (source):

      "Scientists have calculated that although contamination from the bunker-busters could be limited, tons of radioactive uranium compounds would be released." [my emphasis]

      And plus, as you say, the first-use of nuclear weapons will send a clear signal to the rest of the world that the law don't mean squat any more, and everyone had better arm themselves with a nuke quick if they want to be secure against a nuclear attack.

  •  Nice, thought-provoking diary (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Geekesque, heathlander

    but I wonder if the principle of universality can ever truly work in international relations.  (I guess that notion would call into doubt whether I should be "taken seriously").

  •  If Israel DOESN'T attack Iran... (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Pumpkinlove

    ...I'm sure that the Kossacks already condemning Israel for an attack which hasn't taken place will admit their error and praise Israel for its restraint.

    By the way, did I mention that I sniff glue?

  •  By this logic, Israel has a right to attack Iran (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    QueensGal73

    If belicose statements are themselves a casus belli, then how about statements like these from Iran's President Ahmadinejad:

    "We ask the West to remove what they created sixty years ago and if they do not listen to our recommendations, then the Palestinian nation and other nations will eventually do this for them."

    "The outcome of hundreds of years of war will be defined in Palestinian land. As the Imam said, Israel must be wiped off the map."

    "If the West does not support Israel, this regime will be toppled. As it has lost its raison d' tre, Israel will be annihilated."

    "Israel is a tyrannical regime that will one day will be destroyed."

    "Israel is a rotten, dried tree that will be annihilated in one storm."

    Fortunately for peace in the region, Israel will NOT apply the standard so heartily endorsed by Heathlander... to the disappointment of so many who post here who clearly see the Middle East as a story of demons vs innocents.

  •  You Overlook Iran's Stated Intention (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    QueensGal73

    The president of Iran (admittedly it wasn't the Ayatollah himself) has explicitly stated a desire to see Israel eliminated.  To me, that expression justifies any Israeli attack.  

  •  It is not (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Rohan

    "preventative war."

    Iran has been AT WAR with Israel since the Islamofacist revolution.

    They are actively supporting hostilities and derailing any chance of a negotiated peace.

    If missiles were falling where my two daughters sleep, I would do everything in order to stop that. -- President Barack Obama

    by JPhurst on Sun Jan 07, 2007 at 03:10:56 PM PST

    •  Finally some sanity! (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Rohan

      We are beyond preventing Iran from waging war with the U.S. and Israel since they have been for many years.    That is the problem right now with much of the analysis from the left is that there is continued denial that we are at war with Iran.  

  •  They all have the right to act like a bunch (0+ / 0-)

    of fucking grownups.

    Has the quality of leadership in the Middle East ever been this bad?

    "[R]ather high-minded, if not a bit self-referential"--The Washington Post.

    by Geekesque on Mon Jan 08, 2007 at 12:29:51 AM PST

  •  An eminently sensible Independent.. (0+ / 0-)

    ..leader.

    Even though it annoyingly assumes, contrary to the evidence, that Iran is developing nuclear weapons, it also explains the reason why this would be the case:

    'Hemmed in from east and west by nuclear Israel and Pakistan, with American troops on his borders in Iraq and Afghanistan, he [Ahmadinejad] has happily chanced upon an issue that rallies even Iran's liberals to his standard. Forget talk of the " Shia arc" that supposedly threatens Sunni Saudi Arabia and elsewhere. As most Iranians see it, their country is surrounded and urgently needs muscle in the shape of nuclear weapons.'

  •  Iran Has A Right To Attack Israel (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    cartwrightdale

    There is one flaw in your contention is that Iran has a right(?) to attack Israel and/or the United States. That flaw is that Iran is the only country threatening to obliterate another country from the face of the earth. Yes the United States and Israel have been very vocal in their policies to prevent Iranian acquistition of nuclear weapons. But they have only proposed stikes to impact the Iranian nuclear programs, NOT wiping Iran off the face of the earth.

    Why is adversely affecting the Iranian economy by manipulation of the world oil markets more evil than Iran trying to manipulate the world oil markets? Yes decreased oil revenues for Iran could cause significant economic problems for Iran. However, artifically inflating oil prices world wide can cause economic problems for the world wide economy. So which is worse, adverse affects on one country or adverse affects on the world wide economy, probably affecting smaller and third world countries more significantly?

    •  No flaw (0+ / 0-)

      "There is one flaw in your contention is that Iran has a right(?) to attack Israel and/or the United States. That flaw is that Iran is the only country threatening to obliterate another country from the face of the earth. Yes the United States and Israel have been very vocal in their policies to prevent Iranian acquistition of nuclear weapons. But they have only proposed stikes to impact the Iranian nuclear programs, NOT wiping Iran off the face of the earth."

      You are, again, arguing that the U.S./Israel is justified in attacking Iran based on a couple of abstract statements by their weak, populist President.

      I'm saying that if that is the standard of 'threat' that is required to justify a 'preemptive' attack, Iran should have started bombing Israel and the U.S. months ago, because undoubtedly Israel and the U.S. pose a greater threat to Iran than vice versa (as I show in the diary above).

      •  Big Flaw (0+ / 0-)

        I am not advocating for either side to make a pre-emptive strike. At this point neither point of view can justify a stike. My contention is that the arguements for both sides are equally vaild or equally flawed.

        •  That's what I'm arguing (0+ / 0-)

          I argue that, by the standards of international law, the U.S./Israel do not have the right to 'preemptively' attack Iran (and obviously, Iran also has not the right).

          The point of this post was to show that those who doadvocate a 'preemptive' strike on Iran cannot with any logical consistency argue against an Iranian strike on Israel and the U.S. It was, as I said, a "thought exercise".

  •  I question the virtue of "universality" (0+ / 0-)

    In a serious effort to challenge a presupposition of your argument, I must ask you why you state with certainty that "universality," or at least as it is defined by Noam Chomsky, is the only "moral" principle of international relations.  

    Could you not entertain that there are several competing principles at work in the history of international relations?  Moreover, is it not possible that, in fact, universality is not so morally sound?

    After all, where is written that all nation-states are created equal and equally deserving of respect?  (Please do not answer, "The UN Charter").  Is Norway, who enjoys an equal protection clause in its Constitution, morally quivalent to Saudi Arabia where women are expressly segregated in its Consitution?  Is Canada, who is policed by the rule of law and a bill of rights morally equivalent to Sudan that have no courts of law and are engaged in a systematic annhialation of 35% of its citizenry?  And is India, who enjoys a democratic system of elections morally equivalent to Pakistan, who does not?

    Even if one were answer, "yes" to all of these questions, ought you not respect someone else's opinion and intellectual capacity who answers, "no?"

    Because if one, were to answer "No" to these questions of moral equivalence, then one does not necessarily accept that Chomsky's "universality" is the only virtuous paradigm in foreign affairs.  Once universality" is viewed as something less than holy, other theories and principles can be freely considered and contemplated within your "thought experiment."  And then... perhaps... one may reach different conclusions and... formed her own opinion.

    Is it for this my life I sought?

    by Agrippa on Mon Jan 08, 2007 at 11:14:02 AM PST

    •  First of all (0+ / 0-)

      it is not Chomsky's universality - it is a fundamental moral truism. The principle that you apply to yourself the same standards you apply to others was articulated, amongst others, by Jesus Christ in his famous definition of hypocrisy in the Bible.

      I don't see how anyone could sensibly argue with the statement that, for example, if you expect Iran not to wage aggressive war on anyone, you yourself should not wage aggressive wars. Or, if you expect Iran to grant freedom of speech to university students, you yourself should not censor your own students. It's really a basic moral truism.

      The only way to object would be to say that 'you' are more 'superior' or are 'outside' the rules you expect others to follow. In other words, 'you' are a dictator,  following a 'do as I say, not as I do' attitude. This is completely morally unsustainable.

      •  may I so humbly ask (0+ / 0-)

        Jesus Christ notwithstanding, whether you really believe that no one person is morally superior than another?  

        That is to say, I agree with your conclusion - that if one wants another to behave by a particular standard, then one ought to apply the same standard to oneself follows from your presupposition that all persons hold equal moral values.  So, it is not your conclusion I question, your logic is tautologically sound.  I question the presupposition your conclusion rests upon.  

        Does a rapist deserve a moral equivalency to a Buddhist monk?  Is forbidding women the freedom to walk outside with the clothing of her choice deserving of the same moral respect of women having the same rights as men?

        Is one necessarily dictative if she were to answer, "no" to these questions?

        Is it for this my life I sought?

        by Agrippa on Mon Jan 08, 2007 at 12:30:54 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  It has nothing to do with moral equivalency (0+ / 0-)

          For me to say that I will apply the same standards to myself as to other has nothing to do with moral equivalency at all.

          Say I think, for example, that aggression is wrong. That's the starting principle. Now, if you (the hypothetical you) cared about basic morality like the principle of universality, you would not simply say that everyone else should not commit aggression. You would say that everyone, including yourself, should not commit aggression. Or, conversely, you would say that everyone has the right to commit aggression.

          I don't see how that has anything to do with moral equivalency. I'm not saying Iran is morally equivalent to the U.S., or that it isn't. I'm saying that the U.S. (for example) should apply the same standards to itself that it applies to others.

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