Skip to main content

So far we've learned that Hillary's main advisor, pollster and PR-firm owner Mark Penn, is not only a union buster whose PR firm represents the likes of Blackwater, it turns out he has also been involved with the C.I.A. in overthrowing various governments around the world:

In his article, "Coup D'etat in Disguise," Jonathan Mowat described how these "polls" work:  "Penn, Schoen and Berland (PSB) has played a pioneering role in the use of polling operations, especially "exit polls," in facilitating coups.  Its primary mission is to shape the perception that the group installed into power in a targeted country has broad popular support. "

Gee, if that doesn't strike a nerve.

They've done it in Serbia, they've done it in Belarus, and in Georgia and the Ukraine.  Mark Penn.  And now he's doing it for Hillary in the good old U.S. of A.  

For those of us who haven't trusted Hillary or her people since day one, those of us who have sensed that the corportocracy has been shoving her down our throats since before all the votes were lost in the last presidential election, the evidence is starting to pile up fast and deep that we are indeed vindicated in our suspicions.  

I really don't like being told who my candidate is years before anybody has cast a vote.  That sends up the red flags.  And now the red flags are turning into something that sounds more like burglar alarms:

These days the U.S. has a new arch nemesis; Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez.  Surely Washington would be delighted to get rid of him in the same fashion as all the rest.  But there is one small problem; Hugo Chavez is no Slobodan Milosovic.  He is immensely popular among the masses in Venezuela and throughout Latin America.  Pro-Chavez parties have continued to win democratic elections over the last 8 years, and will most certainly win again in the December 3rd presidential contest.  This time U.S. forces have their work cut out for them.  They know that it is basically impossible to beat Chavez at the ballot box; he's too popular.  It looks like they will have to go to plan B: a coup d'etat.

The U.S. has already set up camp in Venezuela, and all the original cast members are here.  We've got NED, USAID, and yes, once again, Penn, Schoen & Berland.  

Last week, Mr. Schoen, of Penn, Schoen & Berland, released the findings of his latest survey on the Venezuelan evening news.  As expected, Penn's survey showed that Chavez's opposition, Manuel Rosales, was nearly tied in the polls with Chavez.  Chavez, it showed, had only 48% support, and his opponent Manuel Rosales had gained significantly up to 42%.  This poll is now being reported across all the major Venezuelan media, to a huge audience, showing that Rosales was gaining more and more everyday, and could possibly win.  Mr. Schoen added his personal opinion, "The momentum is clearly with Rosales."(10)

With the help of the mainstream media, almost all of which is vehemently opposed to the popular president, these fake polls have reached a wide audience.  All the newspapers, the major television channels, and internet news sites report the poll results as if they were true, valid, findings.  They don't mention the fact that these findings are not supported by any other polling agency.  Again, although the reality is that Rosales has almost no chance of winning in the December elections, much of the population now believes he will.  The reality doesn't seem to matter, all that really matters is what the population believes.  When their candidate loses by a large margin, it will be a difficult reality to deal with.  If the opposition strategy works, it might be possible to produce large protests and even riots.

Nasty business that.  Looks like Mark Penn really doesn't give a damn about actual "Democracy".  He's one of those "the ends justifies the means" kind of guys.  You know, like Bush and Cheney.  And Rove. reports that Mark Penn was involved as well in the Venezuelan recall election of 2004, the 2005 elections in Britian (hired by Tony Blair of course), and the 2006 elections in Italy.

And just a couple of days ago, a "poll" here in the U.S. was released that "showed" that "Gore entry might help Clinton".  Thankfully, we at Kos know that this supposed "poll" was conducted by none other than Matt Towery:

Mr. Towery served as the chairman of former Speaker Newt Gingrich's political organization from 1992 until Gingrich left Congress.

And guess who Matt Towery has contributed $2,300 to this cycle?  Why none other than Hillary Clinton's campaign.

Towery, Matt A JR
Atlanta , GA 30327
Towery Communications/President/ CE
primary 05/29/07

So why are right-wingers actively and financially supporting Hillary Clinton?  Why is Hillary's top advisor a man who has been involved in anti-Democracy CIA-backed coups in other countries?

Why would anybody in their right mind support Hillary Clinton at this point, and as this stuff sees the light of day?

How many paid Hillary shills are there at Dailykos?  Why should I trust anything I read about her at this point?  

And can we have some primaries before deciding who our nominee is?

And just for the record, I am not for any of our Dem nominees.  I would back Gore if he would run.  That's it.  

Originally posted to theyrereal on Sun Oct 14, 2007 at 10:04 PM PDT.

Your Email has been sent.
You must add at least one tag to this diary before publishing it.

Add keywords that describe this diary. Separate multiple keywords with commas.
Tagging tips - Search For Tags - Browse For Tags


More Tagging tips:

A tag is a way to search for this diary. If someone is searching for "Barack Obama," is this a diary they'd be trying to find?

Use a person's full name, without any title. Senator Obama may become President Obama, and Michelle Obama might run for office.

If your diary covers an election or elected official, use election tags, which are generally the state abbreviation followed by the office. CA-01 is the first district House seat. CA-Sen covers both senate races. NY-GOV covers the New York governor's race.

Tags do not compound: that is, "education reform" is a completely different tag from "education". A tag like "reform" alone is probably not meaningful.

Consider if one or more of these tags fits your diary: Civil Rights, Community, Congress, Culture, Economy, Education, Elections, Energy, Environment, Health Care, International, Labor, Law, Media, Meta, National Security, Science, Transportation, or White House. If your diary is specific to a state, consider adding the state (California, Texas, etc). Keep in mind, though, that there are many wonderful and important diaries that don't fit in any of these tags. Don't worry if yours doesn't.

You can add a private note to this diary when hotlisting it:
Are you sure you want to remove this diary from your hotlist?
Are you sure you want to remove your recommendation? You can only recommend a diary once, so you will not be able to re-recommend it afterwards.
Rescue this diary, and add a note:
Are you sure you want to remove this diary from Rescue?
Choose where to republish this diary. The diary will be added to the queue for that group. Publish it from the queue to make it appear.

You must be a member of a group to use this feature.

Add a quick update to your diary without changing the diary itself:
Are you sure you want to remove this diary?
(The diary will be removed from the site and returned to your drafts for further editing.)
(The diary will be removed.)
Are you sure you want to save these changes to the published diary?

Comment Preferences

  •  But, but, but (21+ / 0-)

    they're all the same, really no difference between the three (Clinton, Edwards and Obama), and Senator Clinton has been to the dance, and knows how to beat these people.

    Pull up your feet on the ottoman, have a cup of coffee, and a conversation, for goodness sakes.

    You'll learn to love your DLC overlords!  Bill Clinton was the best Republican President we've ever had, and you Ain't Seen Nothin' Yet, and Don't Stop Thinkin' About Tomorrow!  (Nabis---co!)

    •  Our backs are to the wall. (8+ / 0-)

      I don't know if God will help. The corruption simply doesn't stop. It'll end in a blood bath that makes Iraq look tame.

      I'm seriously worried that we'll see a draft in 10 years or less and that would be the moment my son reaches majority.

      My novel is full of sex, drink, incest, suicides, dope, horseracing, murder, scandalous legal procedure and ends with a good public hanging--attended by 30,000

      by Salo on Sun Oct 14, 2007 at 10:18:36 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Come on now (5+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        chuckvw, antifa, lorelynn, vets74, lily15

        Mark Penn is a grown up.  So is Hilary.  America needs grown ups.  And fixers too.

      •  and we're voting for it with our dollars (5+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        anna, antifa, Fabian, CTLiberal, kafkananda

        Every time we spend money for things that depend on cheap foreign labor or cheap farm labor or cheap nonrenewable resources, we are sending the signal that we want this stuff to continue.  

        Every time we buy from companies that are worst-practices instead of best-practices, we are casting a vote.  

        For example.  You want a new TV?  First question to ask is, why do you want a new TV, why not keep the old one?  Why not have the old one repaired by the little electronics shop in town?  Yeah you have to go without a TV for a week, but you don't need it to survive so deal with it.  

        But if you really do need a new TV, e.g. the old one's NER (Not Economically Repairable: the repair is greater than 50% of the cost of a new one) or you want one in another room:  Then, which brand do you buy?  If you buy Sony, you're buying into the RIAA agenda of copyright fascism, because Sony is also a major content producer that supports copyright fascism like crazy.  And it doesn't take much research to find out that Panasonic makes better video equipment and they're ethically clean: no RIAA entanglements, no labor scandals, no scandals at all, period.  So buy Panasonic instead.  

        For example.  You need to buy on a discount because your family is on a tight budget.  Walmart?  Hell no; never; and under no circumstances.  Costco?  Hell yes: unionized, best wages & benefits of any large retailer.  

        For example.  The weekly grocery run.  Do you really need Super Sugar Bombs, or can you just lay down the law with your kids and tell them they're going to be eating (something better that's not got genetically engineered grain in it)..?  

        For example.  Gasoline.  Every tankful, unless it's BP or CItgo, is funding our enemies.  BP of all the oil companies has come over to our side about peak oil and climate change.  Citgo is Venezuelan oil, owned by the Venezuelan oil company.  Exxon and suchlike ar the enemy.  Vote at the pump.  And drive less.  If you forgot to get something on your last trip out of the house, do without it until your next trip, and let that be a reminder, and over time you'll learn.  Make lists, link trips, do all your shopping on one trip, and to get to work, carpool and use public transport (or telecommute).  And next time you buy a car, buy the most fuel-efficient one you can get in your price range.

        Demand drives supply.  If we stop demanding the products of coups, exploitation, and climate catastrophe, those products will begin to dry up and something else will take their place.  The DKos readership by itself isn't enough to dry up the demand for coupmeisters and mercenaries and all of that, and the stuff those people do, but it's a start.  

        Hillary et. al. are pragmatists.  They know darn well that Job One for any elected official is to keep the consumers satisfied or they will have a revolt on their hands (and note that I used the word "consumers" there rather than "citizens").  If people demand stuff that's killing workers and killing the planet, the elected leaders will oblige in their policies.  If people demand stuff that's sustainable, sane, and humane, the elected leaders will also oblige in their policies.  But demand isn't something you write in a letter to an elected official: demand is what you choose to buy every single day.  

        •  when did costco unionize? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          My understanding was that the CEO defends himself from charges by wall streeters that he treats his employees too well by claiming it helps keep unions out.

          Although I could have misunderstood things.

          •  I may also be mistaken... (0+ / 0-)

            ...but I've seen numerous postings on this site to the effect that Costco treats its workforce well, good pay & benefits, etc., and that it's driving Walmart batty because it's a competing business model that works.  So I assumed they were unionized, though I could be mistaken.  

            If the CEO says "this helps keep out unions," and the place isn't unionized, then consider who the CEO is talking to: people who hate unions and think he's already a communist for treating his workers well.  So he has to make that kind of noise to those people.  But actions are what counts, and his actions are decent on this item, and he is driving Walmart up the wal (heh).

            Otherwise, look around for supermarkets that have good labor relations (usually the locally owned and smaller chains, for example Andronico's in the Bay Area), and have enough variety that you can exercise real choice.  And also patronize local farmers' markets if you can.  

            Same case for other types of goods.   For example, toys: look for the manufacturers' websites and see if they have anything concrete in their mission statement about how they treat labor and how they deal with ecological issues.  There are some good ones around, some of those are European companies that sell their stuff in the US via online retail and independent (non-chain) toy stores.  Anything made in Europe (typically Germany) will usually turn out better on all counts than stuff made in Asian countries with poor standards (e.g. China: and what possible benefit could there be from using lead paint?!  I thought we solved that one long ago!).

    •  National Biscuit Company (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      HarveyMilk, antifa, planetclaire4

      or Armageddon?

      My novel is full of sex, drink, incest, suicides, dope, horseracing, murder, scandalous legal procedure and ends with a good public hanging--attended by 30,000

      by Salo on Sun Oct 14, 2007 at 10:19:27 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Bill Clinton *was* the best Republcian prez. (0+ / 0-)

      And fact is, you can do one helluva lot worse than that.

      Bush41, Bush43, Nixon.

      These three are/were criminals.

      Out and out criminals, not even ashamed of law breaking.

      Dixie Chicks and Amy Winehouse. Imus and Lenny Bruce. Overcome evil with good.

      by vets74 on Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 04:57:57 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Nader couldn't have said it better (0+ / 0-)

      You do remember Nader's narrative in 2000?  This sounds just like him...

  •  disturbing that polls don't report undecided. (8+ / 0-)

    on a few occasions i have seen/heard that the undecided are in the 50% range.

  •  Great diary! (10+ / 0-)

    Keep up the good work

    "Hillary Clinton will be the next Democratic nominee" - The Decider

    by SoldiersInRevolt on Sun Oct 14, 2007 at 10:25:04 PM PDT

  •  The link to the "Gore Entry Might Help Clinton" (8+ / 0-)

    piece isn't working.

    Interesting diary.  Penn seems to be totally amoral.

    Participation will save the human race.

    by extradish on Sun Oct 14, 2007 at 10:27:42 PM PDT

  •  serbia? georgia? this was bad how? (7+ / 0-)


    call me crazy, but i think the fall of milosevic was a good thing. ditto the orange revolution in ukraine, and the rose revolution in georgia.

    and you've got to be WAY left (or maybe way right, or just way something) to be carrying a torch for Lukashenko.

    I'm guessing that the writer mostly cares about chavez, but these are some really weird folks to support.

    what would joe rauh do?

    by nbutter on Sun Oct 14, 2007 at 10:28:06 PM PDT

    •  Manipulating democracy (10+ / 0-)

      and being involved in coups.  You're okay with that?  

      Do the ends justify the means?

      •  they weren't coups (6+ / 0-)

        calling what happened in serbia, or ukraine, a coup is just, well, frankly nutty.

        it's absolutely true that the US has funded democratic activists from former iron curtain countries.

        that doesn't mean that their work on behalf of humarn rights and civil society and democracy has been worthless.

        these are all non-military, peaceful transitions of power in former dictatorships.  

        again, you may get paranoid about venezuela. but truthfully, venezuela is nowhere near as repressive as belarus or serbia -- you really, really don't need to defend milosevic's regime to support chavez!

        what would joe rauh do?

        by nbutter on Sun Oct 14, 2007 at 10:35:38 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Democracy is something we just pay lip service to (3+ / 0-)

        in the ongoing 'great game' of realpolitik. The goal is American primacy, and Brzezinsky's goal of encircling Russia was very nearly successful until recently.

        It's a tour de force of propaganda that Milosevic was as villified as he was; if one examines the history more closely. Michel Chossudovsky writes:

        Broadly speaking, the bombing of Yugoslavia had the support of Western public opinion, on humanitarian grounds.

        NATO's mandate was broadly accepted.  The geopolitics behind the war were never brought out. The militarisation of the Balkans and the setting up a US military presence was not an issue.

        No coherent antiwar movement was launched in relation to Yugoslavia,  despite the fact that the invasion of Kosovo was in violation of international law.

        A disinformation campaign had been launched. Several leftist intellectuals and civil society activists claimed that this was a "just war".

        The KLA, despite its shady connections was also supported by several sectors of the progressive left, which had described the KLA as a "Liberation Movement".

        The KLA that he speaks of is supported by the CIA and the BND(Budesnachrichtendienst - German intelligence).

        Julia Gorin writes:

        What even the most sporadic trial observer would know is that the Court has spent the last three years discovering what many of us knew in 1999: Milosevic was "a thug whose brutality played into the terrorists' hands," as former Boston Herald and JWR columnist Don Feder has repeatedly explained, but he was no exterminator. Working backwards to make the crime fit the punishment, however, the ICTY has had to redefine "genocide." Thus, Milosevic faces charges of genocide even while the extermination of more than 100,000 black Muslim and Christian men, women and children by Arabic Muslims in Sudan still hasn't been granted the label. But then, the exterminators there aren't white Christian Serbs.

        The MSM play up the premise that Milosevic was a bloodthirsty tyrant, because the American people would never accept a war launched based on a premise of imperial expansion, another move on the Grand Chessboard. Don't get me wrong - no love lost - but I think a full historical review of al Qaeda's operations in the Balkans would be revealing.  

        •  milosevic _was_ a bloodthirsty tyrant (6+ / 0-)

          whether he was responsible for genocide or not, the bosnian serbs, whom he supported, committed ethnic cleansing.  

          it still took years for the US and Europe to intervene in a meaningful way.

          but i'm glad we did, and sort of shocked to see folks who, I guess, think we should have stayed out of kosovo.

          but don't ask the MSM. ask Wesley Clark.

          what would joe rauh do?

          by nbutter on Sun Oct 14, 2007 at 11:04:23 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Well, some would disagree, but regardless (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            as I said, I don't think he was a good man.

            But my point is that the reason for the NATO bombing, which btw was illegal, was sold as a humanitarian action while the underlying geopolitical reasons were never mentioned out loud. And Wesley Clark led that illegal bombing, which Jeremy Scahill confronts him on here.

            Remember Saddam? He used poison gas against the Kurds! We needed to take out that monster too.

            The Taliban had our support, monstrous as they were, until they signed an oil pipeline contract with an Argentine company that would have interfered with American plans for the region.

            American foreign policy is not benevolent; rather, it is calculating. Yugoslavia was broken up, and now we hear talk proposing the 'balkanization' of Iraq. Just today, this was posted:

            The head of Russia's Federal Security Service - the successor of the KGB - said British spies were intent on weakening Russia and breaking up the country.


            In an interview with the weekly Argumenty I Fakti, Patrushev alleged that MI6 agents were "not only gathering intelligence in all areas but also trying to influence the development of the domestic political situation in our country."

            "Right at the moment foreign intelligence services are making considerable efforts to get information about the forthcoming elections to the State Duma (lower house of parliament) and presidency," he said.

      •  You must be kidding... (0+ / 0-)

        Hitler was democratically elected. Clearly, you are not a member of the Democratic party...some other party, but not Democratic.  Perhaps you were confused...

    •   Chavez (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      You need to quit believing all the propaganda you read.  He isn't anywhere as crazy as Bush and Cheney, and he is probably less corrupt than the Clintons.

      No justice, no peace.

      by dkmich on Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 02:12:29 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I know people are desperate to get a Dem elected (21+ / 0-)

    But my god people, we have to watch out that we don't get taken for a ride.

    Mark Penn is bad news. His union-busting alone should have given us all pause. This news about his role in manipulating exit polls in support of undemocratic acts should be a massive red flag.

    Those who support Hillary should also see a major problem here. You can't want your candidate elected so badly that you overlook a major problem like this.

    We should hope for the best from a Democratic candidate - not fear who is advising them.

    I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day

    by eugene on Sun Oct 14, 2007 at 10:38:29 PM PDT

    •  Mark "Grimma" Penn (6+ / 0-)

      Paul "wormtongue" Begala.

      My novel is full of sex, drink, incest, suicides, dope, horseracing, murder, scandalous legal procedure and ends with a good public hanging--attended by 30,000

      by Salo on Sun Oct 14, 2007 at 10:40:39 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  what are the undemocratic acts? (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      lorelynn, cpresley, Joelarama

      what, exactly, are the undemocratic acts in belarus, ukraine, georgia, and serbia?

      really, folks, the democracy movements in former soviet republics deserve support from Democrats here!

      what would joe rauh do?

      by nbutter on Sun Oct 14, 2007 at 10:41:44 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  what about the ones in Iran? (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        antifa, theyrereal, o the umanity

        Venezuela? Bolivia? ahem.

        My novel is full of sex, drink, incest, suicides, dope, horseracing, murder, scandalous legal procedure and ends with a good public hanging--attended by 30,000

        by Salo on Sun Oct 14, 2007 at 10:44:02 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  the article doesn't mention bolivia and iran (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          the bolivian election was fair, as far as i know (at least I think morales thinks so) -- so i don't quite see how that's undemocratic.

          in iran, i would LOVE it if we could help a democratic, peaceful transition from theocracy to something more liberal.  sadly, i don't think we're doing very well in that department.  

          as to venezuela, it sounds like penn released a poll that seemed to overstate support for chavez' opponent.   not great, but far from a coup.  

          what would joe rauh do?

          by nbutter on Sun Oct 14, 2007 at 10:51:28 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Your presumption (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            antifa, Fabian, theyrereal

            that we, the US, somehow has some kind of divine right or obligation to help Iran transition their government into...what? A non-theocracy? Something non-Iranians approve of?

            That speaks more to me than any words you could come up with to try and help HRC dodge this latest bit of ugliness. Yikes.

            "There are two means of refuge from the misery of life - music and cats." - Albert Schweitzer

            by o the umanity on Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 12:42:50 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  It's what Randolph Scott would want . . . (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              o the umanity

              you can't have Indians living off their reservations, doncha know.

              "The rule of the wise must be absolute . . . rulers ought not to be responsible to the unwise subjects." ~ Professor Leo Strauss

              by antifa on Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 12:46:01 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  It also ignores the fact (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              eugene, o the umanity

              that we overthrew Iran's democratically elected leader in the first place.  Because of oil.  

              •  that is true, and it was wrong (0+ / 0-)

                we shouldn't have overthrown Mossadegh.

                Eisenhower should have stopped the CIA from collaborating with the British to do so.

                But that doesn't mean that we can't wish for a more liberal polity in Iran in the 21st century.

                what would joe rauh do?

                by nbutter on Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 08:20:53 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  you misquote (0+ / 0-)

              I didn't say we have a divine right or obligation.

              I said I'd love it if we could help in a democratic, peaceful transition from theocracy to something more liberal.

              I would call Iran a non-liberal democracy.  While there are relatively free elections, civil society is stifled, and there is no consistent rule of law (civil court rulings and ministerial policy are subject to arbitrary reversal by religious dictate).

              I'm not suggesting that we should bomb the country because of this.  

              But I do approve of US support for democratic movements, here as in other places.

              Our stunning failure in Iraq should not lead us to abandon the positive elements of a liberal, engaged foreign policy.

              what would joe rauh do?

              by nbutter on Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 08:15:37 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  liberal engaged foreign policy (0+ / 0-)

                is not the same thing as "imposing our democratic will with bombs and guns".

                And I wasn't quoting you--I was extrapolating the meaning of this sentence:

                in iran, i would LOVE it if we could help a democratic, peaceful transition from theocracy to something more liberal.  sadly, i don't think we're doing very well in that department.  

                Let me put it more simply: we're not doing well at that because it isn't our job to do it in the first place.  

                I'm not suggesting that we should bomb the country because of this.

                Then you shouldn't be in favor of letting anyone near the Dem nomination for President who voted "aye" on Kyl-Lieberman. Period.

                "There are two means of refuge from the misery of life - music and cats." - Albert Schweitzer

                by o the umanity on Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 08:21:07 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  what's your vision of a liberal engaged policy? (0+ / 0-)

                  doesn't it include support for peaceful democratic movements like those in ukraine, georgia, serbia, etc.?

                  i think that our ability to help fledgling pro-democracy movements with, basically, xerox machines and cell phones in these countries stands in stark contrast to the failed attempt to impose democracy by bomb and gun in Iraq.

                  the Revolutionary Guard, of course, operates differently.

                  what would joe rauh do?

                  by nbutter on Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 08:25:19 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  what's your definition of "war-monger"? (0+ / 0-)

                    Does it include bombing the shit out of another sovereign nation, because we, in our almighty democratic wisdom, have determined that our version of 'democracy' is better than their "fledgling" version?

                    News Flash: the Constitution's original idea of "democracy" is just, but we're not the only country in the world, sport. The US is not in charge of imposing our democracy anywhere else. In fact, we should probably look inward and clean up our own backyard at this point, before we go stretching our military any thinner around the world.

                    And actually, I have a feeling that throwing around words like "Revolutionary Guard" in this context could be taken as almost wingnut-like. What are you trying to do, hurt your candidate?

                    "There are two means of refuge from the misery of life - music and cats." - Albert Schweitzer

                    by o the umanity on Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 08:56:29 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  huh? (0+ / 0-)

                      i think you're shadow-boxing here.

                      i'm not talking about imposing democracy, i'm talking about supporting it.

                      do you think there is any appropriate role for the US in assisting or supporting peaceful transitions of power in other countries?

                      what would joe rauh do?

                      by nbutter on Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 09:01:41 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  No, (0+ / 0-)

                        I was asking you to clarify. You have finally done so; the problem was in your original statement:

                        in iran, i would LOVE it if we could help a democratic, peaceful transition from theocracy to something more liberal.  sadly, i don't think we're doing very well in that department.  

                        The word "Help" could certainly speak to an affinity for imposing democracy, especially when you imply that we're not doing well at it.

                        My point was that maybe the reason we're not "doing well at it" is because we shouldn't have been imposing our will (which includes our concept of "democracy")--on any other sovereign nation. Especially when they never asked us for our assistance in the first place.

                        You seem to be insinuating that we have some sort of duty, or worse, a divine right to impose our democracy, because we think it's just. Makes you appear to be rather hawkish, from where I sit.

                        "There are two means of refuge from the misery of life - music and cats." - Albert Schweitzer

                        by o the umanity on Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 10:14:49 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

      •  LYING (5+ / 0-)

        Or do you think that LYING about polls is okay, and conducting fraudulent ones, is a-okay as long as it supports "your" agenda?

        •  what are you referring to? (4+ / 0-)

          where is the evidence that penn lied in belarus, or ukraine, or georgia, or serbia?

          i mean, i'm sure milosevic thinks that any election his party lost must be phony, but do you agree with him?

          what would joe rauh do?

          by nbutter on Sun Oct 14, 2007 at 10:58:55 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Read the article (0+ / 0-)

            I'd quote more of it if I were allowed to.  

            What Penn does is conduct fraudulent polls, then presents the fake results to the people, which gives the people the IMPRESSION that Penn's client is way more popular than the client actually IS.

            You know, like with Hillary.  She's been shoved down our throats since day one.  We've been told she's "our "candidate, she's "inevitable".  Who's telling us that?  People like Dick Armey, that's who.  

            Hillary is a Trojan Horse.  

    •  If they can overlook (10+ / 0-)

      her votes on the IWR and Kyl-Lieberman, along with her belligerent statements about Iraq and Iran before casting those votes, they can overlook anything.

      What FDR giveth; GWB taketh away.

      by Marie on Sun Oct 14, 2007 at 10:51:59 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I like her and Durbin's vote on Kyl Lieberman. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        nbutter, cpresley

        No one really thinks it's going to justify except partisans. As for the Authoritzation - it was going to pass with or without her. At least she tried to do something to stop the war rather than just twiddling her thumbs. She talks non-stop about the need for diplomacy with Iran, and told AIPAC Bush was wrong for not sitting and talking with him.

        i admire her enormously, and i opposed  this war from the get go. I think she's gonna get us out of that conflict so fast your head is going to spin.

        •  For you Hillary Heavies . . . (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Sandy on Signal

          the question is, does your job description include defending Mark Penn, and demanding that we worship him the way we oughta shut up and worship Hillary?

          Or are you going to skip right over why an amoral Rovian sleaze like Mark Penn is Hillary's "Number One Guy!"

          Hey, check your fax machines -- there may be some new talking points in there, ready for the morning shift!

          "The rule of the wise must be absolute . . . rulers ought not to be responsible to the unwise subjects." ~ Professor Leo Strauss

          by antifa on Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 12:38:26 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Why is he suddenly relevant? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      Penn's been advising Hillary since she came to the Senate, and she has a solidly liberal voting record despite his presence.  Why should we suddenly be worried?

    •  Oh, no. Any Dem will do. Just ask em. (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      anna, eugene, Sandy on Signal, antifa

      They're "centrist".  Pragmatic.  Bet you voted for Nader.  Bob Johnson's Hillary diary was a masterpiece.   Apparently Clinton supporters don't care about right and right, good and bad, or reform.  All they want is a Dem, any Dem, even if she is a Republican.

      No justice, no peace.

      by dkmich on Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 02:16:17 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  As to paid shills (5+ / 0-)

    It's only my speculation, but I think there are paid shills here from each of the three major campaigns. I do not believe Hillary alone has done that.

    Nor do I think it's wrong to be a paid shill - although such a relationship ought to be disclosed if it exists.

    I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day

    by eugene on Sun Oct 14, 2007 at 10:40:08 PM PDT

  •  Venezuelan election already happened (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    anna, antifa, planetclaire4

    For the sake of clarity you might want to mention that the Venezuelan election happened last December. Polling was remarkably inconsistent, with one poll as close as 51%-49% three days after the Penn poll and another, on the same day, at 52.5%-25.5%. The eventual tally was slightly under 63%-slightly under 37%.

    At the same time, the September Penn poll (50%-37%) came out a few days after a poll suggesting a 58.2%-17.4% count. That's a little suspicious.

    Maybe this came right to mind for others; I didn't follow the election closely, so a little Wikipedia was helpful for me.

    I'm curious about the Italian stuff (can be read in the PSB Wikipedia article). Not a huge Berlusconi fan.

    •  thanks, you're right (0+ / 0-)

      that article is from 2006.  I noticed that and simply forgot to acknowledge it.  

    •  just to point out - he was closer (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Partially Impartial

      i mean, 50-37 is more predictive than 58-17, if the eventual result was 63-37, isn't it?

      may be a little suspicious, but not really a masterful anti-democratic coup type of thing.

      what would joe rauh do?

      by nbutter on Sun Oct 14, 2007 at 10:55:52 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  true. (0+ / 0-)

        And other polls were pretty messy as well. On October 23rd, Zogby had Chavez up 59%-24%, while Ceca had him down 39.5%-41.3%.

        My guess is that the first Datanalisis poll was actually closer. This for a few reasons: it was closer to many of the polls around it (except the Miami Herald poll, which I'm curious about); I would expect, without I suppose any really good reason, that the margin would start to close nearer to the election; and also, the November Datanalisis poll was very predictive, giving both candidates 10% less than they received, while the Penn poll undercut Chavez by 15% and gave Rosales 5% too much.

  •  Let's not forget that Carville (7+ / 0-)

    was down in Bolivia and helped elect a president that the people there hated and have since replaced with Evo Morales.

    What FDR giveth; GWB taketh away.

    by Marie on Sun Oct 14, 2007 at 10:44:31 PM PDT

  •  Perkins' Confessions of an Economic Hit Man (13+ / 0-)


    The Secret History of American Empire

    discuss the modus operandi for these regime changes....  an enlightening - and frightening view of the coporatocracy at work.

  •  I generally (10+ / 0-)

    ...don't rec any candidate diaries, but this is some really disturbing shit. Has her campaign come out with any statements, lameass excuses or whatever about Penn?

    Arrogant lips are unsuited to a fool-- how much worse lying lips to a ruler - Proverbs 17:7

    by Barbara Morrill on Sun Oct 14, 2007 at 10:59:18 PM PDT

  •  putting "neoliberals" in power in Latin America (5+ / 0-)

    Right-winger Mary Matlin's husband and Clinton campaign adviser James Carville also has a habit of working in Latin America to get "neoliberals" elected to "dismantle the statist model" of governments down there. They want too wipe out Liberalism were ever they find it.

    Sánchez de Lozada, a life-long member of the Movimiento Nacionalista Revolucionario (MNR) (DLC?), he is credited for using "shock therapy", the economic theory championed by Harvard economist Jeffrey Sachs. This extreme measure was used by Bolivia in 1985. More broadly, he is credited with having engineered the neoliberal restructuring of the Bolivian state and the dismantling the statist model that had prevailed in the country since the advent of the 1952 Revolution.

    Carville is a veteran campaign strategist who headed Clinton’s campaign in 1992 .... he has done eighty percent of his most recent work in Latin America

    Bush's post-9/11 counter-terrorism defense policy -- strike hard where they aren't and go easy where they are.

    by William Domingo on Sun Oct 14, 2007 at 11:29:33 PM PDT

    •  Spin Cycle (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      anna, antifa

      Opening just months after the victory of Bolivia's populist, pro-coca president Evo Morales, Rachel Boynton's chronicle of that country's 2002 elections, Our Brand Is Crisis, is less about the rise of the South American left than about U.S. jingoism and the attempt to export Clintonian neoliberalism to a place that doesn't particularly need it. Crisis follows James Carville's hired-gun consultants as they attempt to remodel the image of Gonzalo "Goni" Sánchez de Lozada from American-educated technocrat to man of the people

      And here's what they had to go thought to get rid of that cruel SOB Carville helped stick them with. Don't forget, Zell Miller is another one of Carville's messes.


      Atop the Andes mountains, the poorest and proudest peoples of South America, the Aymará and Quechua Indians, coca-producing peasant farmers whose skin is tanned and weathered by the sun, and miners with blackened faces overthrew Sánchez de Lozada, whom they blamed for their poverty and the intense repression that left an estimated 60 to 80 dead in recent days.

      The departure of "Goñi" or "the Gringo," as he is disdainfully called on the street, was decided amid one of the largest mobilizations that this Altiplano country had seen in its history.

      Bush's post-9/11 counter-terrorism defense policy -- strike hard where they aren't and go easy where they are.

      by William Domingo on Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 12:12:38 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Penn isn't Rove (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    anna, jerseycorn, steelman, o the umanity

    Rove has talent. Rove is successful. Penn is a nothing. Look at his new book. What amateur dribble. Look at his bad advice to Al Gore. Look at his comb over. The only similarity to Rove is  girth. Though Penn probably outweighs Rove. Though I'm sure they feed from the same trough.

    "BUSH II: A Thousand Points of Darkness"

    by demwords on Sun Oct 14, 2007 at 11:32:02 PM PDT

  •  Clarification (6+ / 0-)

    First of all, Mark Penn doesn't own Burson-Marsteller, the "PR firm" to which you refer. He's the CEO. Burson-Marsteller is owned by a very large multinational British firm called WPP Group.

    Second, conducting polling is quite different than buying/supplying arms.

    Third, people on this board obviously have no idea how PR firms operate. To suggest that Mark Penn is in bed with Blackwater because a subsidiary of the company he helms has done work for them is disingenuous. Lobbying subsidiaries of PR firms are run quite autonomously and take on clients from all over the political spectrum.

    Your world, upside-down! Visit Sydneysided, my view of the world as a Texan, Aggie and Democrat living Down Under.

    by AggieDemocrat on Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 12:27:21 AM PDT

    •  so PR firms, in general, work in such a way (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      as to enable their support for companies like Blackwater? Does this help Penn's case very much?

      •  The question is (3+ / 0-)

        "How many degrees of seperation before Hillary is not responsible for someone else?"

        For anti-HRCers the answer is clearly "infinite".

        •  Since Blackwater has near infinite resources.. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          opendna, AggieDemocrat

 have to figure that Mrs. Clinton has hooked up with someone competent.

          The degrees of separation concept fits perfectly.

          Gee, strong use of inductive logic. A rarity.

          Dixie Chicks and Amy Winehouse. Imus and Lenny Bruce. Overcome evil with good.

          by vets74 on Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 05:02:13 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Clinton competent?!? Sacrilege! (0+ / 0-)

            Are you suggesting that because Blackwater has near infinite resources that they are likely to have hired someone competent, therefore because HRC has hired the same person(s) we should conclude that she has hired competent people?

            I'm not sure we can accept that.

            If all DLCers are incompetent, and Bill Clinton's people were all DLCers, and all of HRC's people are Bill Clinton's people, then aren't we forced to conclude that all of HRC's people are incompetent?

            No, wait... that can't be right... ;^)

  •  Negative Messages On Obama And Edwards (6+ / 0-)

    Hillary Pollster Mark Penn's Firm Tests Negative Messages On Obama And Edwards -- Including On $400 Haircut

    Lots of people are understandably curious to know what sort of messages Hillary pollster Mark Penn is testing on behalf of her boss right now.

    Well, we've got some answers to that question.

    Penn's pollsters have been testing various negative messages on both Barack Obama and John Edwards. The messages tested on Obama were that he's inexperienced and that he's voted to fund the war at certain junctures.

    A bit more surprising: Penn's firm polled on Edwards' $400 haircut, a line of inquiry that would seem more likely to come from a GOPer than from a fellow Dem's campaign. Penn has already created controversy for Hillary with his anti-union corporate clientele.

    Bush's post-9/11 counter-terrorism defense policy -- strike hard where they aren't and go easy where they are.

    by William Domingo on Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 12:35:53 AM PDT

  •  Mark Penn must be amazed ... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    To find out how important he is.

    I am beyond even fulminating about these Hillary hit diaries. In the reality-based community, no one thinks she is St. Hillary, but the Spider Queen theories here verge on Area 51 stuff.

    Come to think of it, the diarist's screen name kind of goes that way too.

    The best fortress is to be found in the love of the people - Niccolo Machiavelli

    by al Fubar on Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 06:27:27 AM PDT

  •  Here is a Rethug narrative worthy of Gore 2000 (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    campskunk, Caldonia

    Go read the narratives pushed on us by so called progressives in 2000.  Gore was VP for 8 years...another corporatist...insider...bad guy....Vote Nader these same people said....

    Don't buy this false narrative...Penn isn't running for President.  Nor was Rove. Hillary has a history of fighting the right wing machine.  Don't forget it.  And certainly don't buy this hype from the REthug machine.  If anything, they are clever...and posting here with a narrative especially tailored to progressives who hate HIllary is their specialty.  Don't be conned again.  

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site