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This summer for a while I tried to post action alerts about measures that could help to reduce abortion, measures that prolife and prochoice people alike could both support in good conscience....

This was followed by an immediate onslaught of (in my view, anyway, unfounded, though I could see where they were coming from, in part) suspicions and accusations about who I was & why I was doing this.

And then I experienced a prolonged medical crisis that included some time in the hospital.  Which sucked, but thankfully (1) it did not plunge my family into homelessness, because our family, unlike millions of other working-poor americans who are entitled to it , too, happens to have health insurance and (2) I had a little time and space for perspective re: my little effort here.

I am, and remain leftist-to-the-core, and dedicated to the cause of reducing abortion through nonviolent means.  But I have concluded that Daily Kos is not the appropriate venue for me, personally, to make whatever small contributions I might possibly myself make to this cause, given my particular constraints of time, energy, money....  

It's one thing to encounter & face disagreement; that's a big part of life, not to be swept under the rug...It is another to be constantly expected to use up whatever small amount of energy one trying to thoroughly, completely answer to ad hominem -style objections that one suspects can never be met to the objectors' satisfaction.  

So, I will just continue to do what I am trying to do (however ineptly, inadequately, politically-incorrectly) with the website & blog, Nonviolent Choice Directory. While I do listen & respond to criticisms... I am much more interested in getting things done in a practical sense than in picking seemingly endless, intractable fights with anyone about Who's All Right and Who's All Wrong.  Such fights to me are just saddening, debilitating, barriers to concrete accomplishments that actually save and improve people's lives.  

If anyone here, prolife or prochoice, is interested in any aspect of what Nonviolent Choice Directory is about, you are most welcome to visit www.nonviolentchoice.info and civilly, constructively visit & participate there.  People from all over the world visit, & it would be nice to have you, too.

A postscript (11/15/07): An attempt has been made, once again, to prove that I am somehow hostile to contraception.  If I am hostile to contraception, then it does not explain why I am spreading the word about a campaign that urges people to, ten dollars at a time, spread up-to-date knowledge of all family planning methods in the Two-Thirds World:

http://nonviolentchoice.blogspot.com...

Please give to this campaign!

Originally posted to marysia on Tue Nov 13, 2007 at 01:21 PM PST.

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Comment Preferences

  •  hey thanks for stopping by (9+ / 0-)

    and telling us how terrible and 'all wrong' we are.

    It was a bright cold day in April, and the clocks were striking thirteen. George Orwell, "1984", first sentence

    by tony the American Mutt on Tue Nov 13, 2007 at 01:20:52 PM PST

  •  Abortion should be safe and legal (7+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    tryptamine, skrymir, oibme, dennisl, Mae, airmarc, chauie

    and, with any luck, not necessary.

    Education is probably the best method of birth control and reducing abortion.  Keep on teaching.

    "People should not be afraid of their government; governments should be afraid of their people." --V

    by MikeTheLiberal on Tue Nov 13, 2007 at 01:22:26 PM PST

  •  I took a look at your promoted website (18+ / 0-)

    and yes, I do think this is probably not the right place for you.

    Good luck with your endeavors.

    "...the Edwards folks do not endorse Brittany's crotch."

    by Pager on Tue Nov 13, 2007 at 01:22:30 PM PST

  •  I am a Catholic Democrat (8+ / 0-)

      who trul believes that a woman has the right to choose and who constantly hopes that they choose to have their child.

      I would never force a rape victim to bear the child of rape or of incest...I do hope that God gives them the strength to do so....if they do, that's wonderful, if not, it's only human.

      The choice is the woman's...i'm a firm believer in that. I, however, am not shy about admitting that I hope they choose to keep the child.

      You are 100% correct, the goal should be to reduce abortion...unfortunately some militant pro choicers claim that statements like that are anti-choice, and militant pro-lifers say that any abortion options should be wiped out. Keep up the fight!!!

    •  not every woman should keep, or have the child (6+ / 0-)

      do we really need more crack-addicted babies?

      more children born into homes where they will not be loved and cared for?

      more children born into violent and abusive situations?

      i believe if a woman wants to have a child and is willing to provide a loving and safe environment (and that included the nine months of pregnancy), then I wish her well. but if she can't, or is unwilling to, then i say abort.

      •  this is precisely the problem w/this discussion (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        marykk

        usmeagle never said any of that.  you're putting words in his mouth.  stop it.  this is how pie fights start.

        When fascism comes to Dkos, it'll be wrapped in TU status.
        TexasKaos.com

        by anna on Tue Nov 13, 2007 at 02:03:07 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I odn't care how s/he feels (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Rebecca, tryptamine, Themistoclea, arlene

          so logn as s/he doesn't make the choice for others. Frankly marysia--and I have been to her site and clinked on all her  inks--doesn't reallywant to reduce the numbers of  preganncies, just the numbers of abortions. SHe links to sites that are EXPLICITLY anti-contraception and pushes the notoriously unsucccessful NFP method. ANd she refuses to linkt o the best and oldest grouop for ocntracpetion, PP ebcause a SMALL amount of hteir work is abortion.

          The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

          by irishwitch on Tue Nov 13, 2007 at 02:56:14 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  we're on the same side, irishwitch (0+ / 0-)

            so i'm not going to argue with you.

            i think my point about the comment still stands, though.  every single time this topic comes up here, people start projecting and putting words into others' mouths, and voila, pie fight.

            When fascism comes to Dkos, it'll be wrapped in TU status.
            TexasKaos.com

            by anna on Tue Nov 13, 2007 at 03:19:52 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I am not entirely sure we are, anna. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Rebecca

              Really. You didn't investgate marysia. I tooks everal horus to check out the sites she linked to--and she is abotu as pro-chcoie or even willign to work with pro-chcoie--as NRLC.  

              Bootm line: she wants US tomake all the concessions but um's delicate widdle conscience can't even bear linkign to PP, because it does abortions.  That is NOT cooperation. That's hypocrisy--do what I say, not as I do.

              The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

              by irishwitch on Tue Nov 13, 2007 at 08:08:21 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

      •  Precisely (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        tryptamine, sbdenmon, marykk

          couldn't have said it better myself. Reducing crack addiction, spousal abuse, and violent homes is one way to REDUCE THE SITUATIONS where abortion may be necessary, which will, in turn, reduce the #.

    •  ANd the people working to REDUCE the numbers (5+ / 0-)

      are.f or the msot part, proi-chcoie.

      The anti-chociers--I wnt onlien and looked at eevry last damned santi-chcoie website--almsot entirely are agaisnt hormonal birth control and the IUD as abortificfaients, and agaisnt comprehensive sex ed--they're absytinence onlyt ypes.

      The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

      by irishwitch on Tue Nov 13, 2007 at 02:46:55 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yes no doubt (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        tryptamine, sbdenmon, marykk

          but too many pro choice folks dismiss ideas to lower the # of abortions. They hear talk like that, they start screaming about women's rights being abandoned.

          Kos has never been more right than when he wrote that few movements have become as stuck in the past as the pro choice movement.

          Lowering the number of abortions should be the goal...not defiantly stating that its just pro choice vs pro life.

        •  I don't mind lowering numebrs-- (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Rebecca, tryptamine, arlene

          no one should have to have an abortion if possible--but IF you start trying to ban them, I lose all sympathy and respect. BEcause the numebr will ever be zero.

          And frankly, if you long to see them banned, I can't trust you completely. Because, if our backs ar to the wall, I cna't count onyour support.
          Basically, choose for yoruself, not me.

          Kos is WRONG about alliances with people who want to ban abortions, except int he msot limtied way.  Most of them also want to ban hormonal birth control, the IUD and the Pill and  are for abstience only sex ed.  The areas we can cooperate are very, very small.  Because THEY do vote single issue.

          The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

          by irishwitch on Tue Nov 13, 2007 at 03:11:06 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  That's the whole point (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            tryptamine, highacidity, sbdenmon, marykk

               I've never advocated banning them. Kos isn't wrong. You align yoursleves with people that don't agree with you sometime.

              The fools who tried to derail Casey could've left us with Santorum in the Senate, just to name one example.

               A Democratic led Senate, even led by pro-life Harry Reid, does not let anti-choice legislation through, even if some Democratic members are hostile to the issue. That's what pro choice groups fail to understand...and why they've lost so much ground in recent years.

            •  We're gonna HAVE to disagree. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Rebecca, arlene

              because I think you are DEAD WRONG.The anti-choice Dems also tend to vote Repub  on other issues like stem cells.  CASEY, your hero, did just that. It's very easy for you to agree with Kos because he mirros your belief system and backs you up.  You've said here while you wont' call for a ban on abortion, you hate it and wish it would go away.  DOesn't it occur to you that MIGHT influence your attitude on this? I suspect you agree with LOTS Of the restrictions they've put on it. I don't  happen tpo.  But most of the women here will disagree with you vehemently on this.

              There are some places--and PA MIGHT be one--especially in the SOuth where we CAN'T get pro-choice people eelcted--whichm eans where we can,. we MUST push.

              Reid is NOPT oen of my favorite Senators--he scores a 65% on abortion, buty i relaiz ehe's the best we're gonna get from nevada. WHy a state that hosts SIn CIty and has legalized  gamblign and prostituion is so anti-chocie, I'll never know.

              The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

              by irishwitch on Tue Nov 13, 2007 at 08:06:09 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Disagree all you want (0+ / 0-)

                  but I, Kos and the others are right. The pro choice movement has hurt itself by its absolute insistence that EVERYONE agree with them FULL SCALE, ALL THE TIME!! It's cost us seats, money and power, and it's cost the movement its effectiveness. This country has grown more anti-choice in its laws despite a 60% pro choice public. The pro choice movement is to blame for that. The fact that you clearly don't think Casey is better than Santorum only highlights the problem.

              •  Abortion is not (0+ / 0-)

                  the only women's issue out there. I don't just wish it would go away, I wish the situations in which they are necessary are reduced. Less teen pregnancy, less spousal abuse, less crack additions, less alcohol fetal syndrome's....what on Earth is wrong with that?

  •  Thanks for playing our game (7+ / 0-)

    Johnny got some great prizes for you, Johnny tell her about it!

  •  This is the problem right here: (14+ / 0-)

    This summer for a while I tried to post action alerts about measures that could help to reduce abortion, measures that prolife and prochoice people alike could both support in good conscience....

    Measures that antichoice and prochoice people could support?  What on earth could that possibly be?  If you are interested in reducing abortion by any other means than banning or limiting it, then you would have had no problem here at all.  The reason?  Those reductions would be access to contraception and reproductive education.  Not a single soul posting on this site would find that problematic as prochoice people have covered that angle since forever.  

    In other words, your "measures" are really "measures" at all, are they?  The whiff of limited or eliminated abortion access is in the air, no matter how victimized you feel.  And I suspect that a result of your anti-choice views.  Big surprise.

     

    It's all fun and games until the Vice President shoots someone in the face.

    by lightiris on Tue Nov 13, 2007 at 01:32:42 PM PST

  •  You want to reduce abortion? (10+ / 0-)

    Promote contraception.

    Work to get rid of this horrible administration with its funding of "Crisis Pregnancy Centers" and "Abstinence Education."

    Work for women's rights in every respect.

    Unless you're willing to support those efforts, you're more concerned with punishing women than helping them.

    Chaos, fear, dread. My work here is done.

    The Music Room - Every weekend. Music & Musicians discussion.

    by madhaus on Tue Nov 13, 2007 at 01:33:33 PM PST

    •  that's what she's doing (0+ / 0-)

      promoting options that reduce abortion.

      When fascism comes to Dkos, it'll be wrapped in TU status.
      TexasKaos.com

      by anna on Tue Nov 13, 2007 at 02:03:31 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  ANd ignoring the fact that (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Rebecca, tryptamine, madhaus, KnowVox

        that ALL birth control, even hormonal or the IUD, has failure rate.ANd she pormotes as adoprtionnm sites two groups --one is a crisis pregnancy cneter KNOWN for being anti-chocie and investigated by NY State for that reason, and another group founded by nary Cunninghma that is completely anti-birth contyrol as well as abortion. Won't link to grousop which DO provide low-cost b/c if they do abortions also.Take the time to check your facts anna--or I'[ll start lumping YOU with marysai.

        The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

        by irishwitch on Tue Nov 13, 2007 at 02:45:08 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  wow (0+ / 0-)

          this is precisely why i tend to ignore threads on this subject.  people on the same side start drawing lines and shit. i mean come on, i make one mistake and all of a sudden i'm your enemy?

          with all respect, that's... par for the course around here i guess.

          When fascism comes to Dkos, it'll be wrapped in TU status.
          TexasKaos.com

          by anna on Tue Nov 13, 2007 at 03:26:38 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  She did not declare you an enemy (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Rebecca, arlene

            She declared you ignorant.  It's up to you to remedy that, which you can.  If you continue supporting mary knowing her methods, then iw knows what you are.

            You admit you "made a mistake."  Having done so, perhaps you need to not get so haughty toward others who might know a little more about this subject than you do?

            Chaos, fear, dread. My work here is done.

            The Music Room - Every weekend. Music & Musicians discussion.

            by madhaus on Tue Nov 13, 2007 at 03:42:34 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  how about you butt out? (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              marykk

              she said i was the enemy unless i STFU about mary and her site.  that's not right.  irishwitch and i are on the same side of the issue.  we should not be fighting.

              and you seriously need to check yourself.  this discussion was between me and irish.  why must you butt in and prolong the argument?

              i know plenty about abortion, i know plenty about the issues surrounding it, and i have been very active in my state working towards preserving reproductive rights.  i - unlike many people - managed to acknowledge my mistake.  but i guess that's just not good enough, is it?  i'm sorry i'm not fucking perfect.

              When fascism comes to Dkos, it'll be wrapped in TU status.
              TexasKaos.com

              by anna on Tue Nov 13, 2007 at 03:51:06 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  how about you shut up (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Rebecca

                since you started this by replying to me.  Rudely.  And wrongly.

                Chaos, fear, dread. My work here is done.

                The Music Room - Every weekend. Music & Musicians discussion.

                by madhaus on Tue Nov 13, 2007 at 04:14:30 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  look (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  hopscotch1997

                  i am sorry i even jumped into this thread.  there's a very clear reason that i generally stay away from this particular subject on this board.  it's just too personal for me to deal with.

                  so i do apologise for being stupid enough to reply to you.  i know better than to even begin to discuss abortion here.  totally my fault.

                  but i really wish you'd stop being such an ass towards me.  your userid tells me you've been here for almost as long as i have.  so you should know by now that pie fights happen sometimes, and people make mistakes sometimes, and we all get pissed and shit all over each other when we shoudl be allies.

                  but considering the personal nature of this subject and my personal connection to it, i really wish you'd show some consideration and not react so harshly.

                  When fascism comes to Dkos, it'll be wrapped in TU status.
                  TexasKaos.com

                  by anna on Tue Nov 13, 2007 at 04:24:37 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  thanks for the "apology" (4+ / 1-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Rebecca, lightiris, sbdenmon, irishwitch
                    Hidden by:
                    anna

                    I apologise for beintg stupid enough to reply to you.

                    Classy.  As is:

                    how about you butt out?

                    [stuff about irishwitch]

                    and you seriously need to check yourself.  this discussion was between me and irish.  why must you butt in and prolong the argument?

                    [stuff about abortion]

                    That's what was rude, not what you quoted below.  I thought it was pretty arrogant of you to reply to me and then tell me to "butt out" of a conversation that I started.

                    I think you need to apologize to everyone, a real apology, not an "I'm sorry you're stupid" construction, before you move on.  And next time don't blame your mistakes on anyone except yourself.

                    Chaos, fear, dread. My work here is done.

                    The Music Room - Every weekend. Music & Musicians discussion.

                    by madhaus on Tue Nov 13, 2007 at 04:46:05 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                •  one last thing (0+ / 0-)

                  can you please tell me how this comment is rude, because i've already acknowledged that it was wrong more than once:

                   that's what she's doing (0 / 0)

                  promoting options that reduce abortion.

                  that's all i said to you.  i was not rude. i did not flame you, but you attacked me.  can't you see why i responded in kind?

                  When fascism comes to Dkos, it'll be wrapped in TU status.
                  TexasKaos.com

                  by anna on Tue Nov 13, 2007 at 04:26:32 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

              •  What I said was that if you back marysia (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Rebecca

                AND knwo what lies are on her site and how much she has lied HERE in her presentation of what she beleives,m you'd be the enemy.

                The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

                by irishwitch on Tue Nov 13, 2007 at 08:12:46 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

          •  Maybe it's because I know Irishwitch already (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Rebecca

            but I didn't take her last sentence as already drawing lines; I took it as a statement of fact.  

            And the fact that you admit that you made a mistake is probably all she needed to know that you are on our side.

            Anti-Forced Birth: Quality of life, not quantity.

            by tryptamine on Tue Nov 13, 2007 at 05:25:50 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

  •  You Want To Reduce Abortion? (10+ / 0-)

    Speak out against rape and incest.

  •  GBCW? (12+ / 0-)

    if this is what passes for a GBCW diary these days, I'm disappointed.

  •  The MOST effective way to decrease abortions (13+ / 0-)

    is single payer model health insurance. Without the insurance companies profiting off our ill health, we will have insurance that covers ALL prescriptions, including birth control pills.

    I read a post written by someone who worked in a clinic. She asked each woman why. The majority said 'because I had to use my birth control money for gas to get to work'.

    Excellent health care for woman reduces abortions.

    •  Universal health care (10+ / 0-)

      that includes contraceptive care along truly family friendly policies.  Notice the right to lifers never tote out abortion rates from what they consider "Godless Europe"....the reason?  These countries, with universal health care, responsible education and family friendly policies have much lower rates of abortion.  

      Until they're willing to talk about such policies, we can't have a reasoned discussion about reducing the numbers of abortions performed.

      •  Thank you for reminding us of that! (6+ / 0-)

        Notice the right to lifers never tote out abortion rates from what they consider "Godless Europe"....the reason?  These countries, with universal health care, responsible education and family friendly policies have much lower rates of abortion.  

        That is so true.  And in countries like "sexy" France I've read that teenagers delay sex until ages 17-18 because they receive sex education.

        If you do what you've always done, you'll get what you've always got.

        by Diana in NoVa on Tue Nov 13, 2007 at 02:32:27 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Yep...the way to reduce (5+ / 0-)

          abortions is to reduce the number of unwanted/unplanned pregnancies.  Its that simple.  Make contraceptives widely available and educate young people in their use.  

          Ofcourse, we also have to recognize that these countries make it possible for many women to decide to carry a pregnancy to term...they truly have more options.  Again, until we're ready to embrace any of these policies, I can't take the pro-lifers seriously.  They're the same folks who lobby against every sane family friendly policy that's brought up.

          •  But there will never NOT be unplanned pregancies (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Rebecca, tryptamine, Themistoclea

            because they all have fualure rates, hence the need for preserving abortion. WOrk to reduce thenumber. Preserve the hcocie

            The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

            by irishwitch on Tue Nov 13, 2007 at 02:42:37 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Ofcourse there will always (4+ / 0-)

              be the need for abortion...but, abortion rates will go down if we make contraceptive services truly accessible to everyone.  Education is key...and quite frankly, so is reducing poverty.

              We are so far away from doing this, however, that we can't even talk about "reducing" the numbers in this country.  Too many people every day have to  make decisions based on factors that civilized people should never have to consider.  Ofcourse, part of being "civilized" means that we respect women enough to make these tough choices.

              •  This diarist won't be the one to (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Rebecca, tryptamine, Themistoclea, KnowVox

                help--not if you look at her site. SHe's about adoption and won't promtoe any group, even if their main work is b/c as with PP, as long as they do abortion. SHe could care less about reducing numbers of pregnancies, just so long as she reduces ABORTIONS. I took her on this summer.  SHe never answered any ofmy questuions.

                The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

                by irishwitch on Tue Nov 13, 2007 at 02:53:12 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

  •  We Need More Abortions (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    highacidity, mmcole, lemming22, TimCbrowne

    There are already too damned many people anyway.

    Abortions should be legal until the fetus can get a driver's license, at least, and the franchise should extend to anybody who has to put up with the little bastards for more than ten minutes against their will.

    Would at least promote better manners, and they would pull their damned pants up.

    No man should seek to do any more than his duty, nor be satisfied to do any less.

    by The Baculum King on Tue Nov 13, 2007 at 01:39:49 PM PST

  •  Oh, come on. (15+ / 0-)

    Could the name "Nonviolent Choice" be any more coded? A great frame: it even has the word "choice" in it.

    And I notice on the site that you have to work pretty damn hard to find actual methods of contraception for women discussed. Click on the Baylor link, and it's not like it takes you directly to a list of options.

    But "abstinence" is easy enough to find.

  •  This may seem hardhearted but... (9+ / 0-)

    if you really have the courage of your convictions, it wouldn't matter much HOW people respond to your message but what they had to say might matter. If they disagree, as some may, then so be it. That's how the process works.

    If you believe you are right and have found a method for dealing with the abortion issue that satisfies both sides of the issue, you shouldn't shirk from voicing your point of view here or any place else. And, certainly, the fact that some voice opposition to that point of view is proof that you need to continue working on the solution because you don't have it yet.

    I don't mean to be hardhearted. I really would like to see someone come up with a soltion that appeals to both sides but, I'm old enough to know that it probably isn't going to happen in this person's lifetime.

  •  marysia - Please state your opinions on... (6+ / 0-)

    teaching contraception, using contraception, and programs making contraception more readily available to both men and women.

    Thank you.

    Maybe Bush can pay for one child's health care in turn for his and Laura's health care being paid for by the taxpayers when he leaves office.

    by gooderservice on Tue Nov 13, 2007 at 02:07:45 PM PST

  •  Your site is not balanced... (9+ / 0-)

    I checked your "Non-violent Choice Directory." It lists NO abortion providers, while it lists some pro-life organizations under certain conditions. This is  telling. It's so obviously skewed. It's a clear statement that you think abortions are wrong in all cases; it does not admit to the reality that there are times when abortion is the compassionate and moral decision. If you truly were who you say you are, you would drop this approach and support Planned Parenthood. They do more to promote education and birth control than anyone else.

    •  You got that right. (10+ / 0-)

      As listed on the blog:

      Prolife Blogs
      Bigger Blogger
      EatonWeb Blog Directory
      Total Blog Directory

      Consistent Life
      FFL College Outreach Program
      FNSA, the Feminism & Nonviolence Studies Matilda Joslyn Gage Foundation
      Nonviolent Choice Defined (from Washington's Voz: The Hispanic Perspective)
      Nonviolent Choice Directory
      Nonviolent Peaceforce
      PLAGAL, the Pro Life Alliance of Gays and Lesbians
      ProLife Feminism, the Book
      Rachel MacNair, Peace Psychologist
      Turn the Clock Forward

      Just picking one site at random:

      How to Serve a Pregnant Woman with the Heart of Christ

      Topics covered at the training, which will be led by Sisters ( also featuring testimonies from Co-Workers and the women they serve) include:

         * Understanding the heart of a vulnerable pregnant woman

         * Communication skills to help you listen to a pregnant woman's needs and be fully present for her

         * The various ways your individual talents and skills may be placed at the service of life

      Now, there's a way to come together:  Take a course to learn how to brainwash, exploit and extort a pregnant woman into not getting an abortion.  

      Nonviolent Choice: Because There Are, and Can Be, Better Ways Than Abortion

      Translated: Learn how to talk her out of getting an abortion.  

      Maybe Bush can pay for one child's health care in turn for his and Laura's health care being paid for by the taxpayers when he leaves office.

      by gooderservice on Tue Nov 13, 2007 at 02:20:40 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Dead on. (9+ / 0-)

      She demands our suport while not supproting the grousp that actually do the work to reducenumbers--and supporting as pro-adoption groups that utterly reject birth control or are crisis pregnancy centers Known for their opposition to abortion.

      I took her on this summer ona ll these points,,a s did a few others.

      The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

      by irishwitch on Tue Nov 13, 2007 at 02:38:53 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  "I think I'll help reduce abortion elsewhere" (8+ / 0-)

    Bye-Bye.

    Maybe Bush can pay for one child's health care in turn for his and Laura's health care being paid for by the taxpayers when he leaves office.

    by gooderservice on Tue Nov 13, 2007 at 02:23:50 PM PST

  •  The Goal (10+ / 0-)

    for me is not to reduce abortion.

    The goal is to preserve choice.

    My interest in the matter ends there. Whether every woman in the world has 10 abortions or none is of no concern or business of mine.

    "How high flies the solitary bird."

    by terryhutchinson on Tue Nov 13, 2007 at 02:32:11 PM PST

    •  Absolutely... (6+ / 0-)

      "reducing abortion" is not necessarily always a good thing...for example, following mass rapes in war; in an instance like that, the compassionate course would be to increase abortions. It entirely depends on the circumstance. The goal should be to acchieve a society in which all women are fully informed about their sexuality, and able to follow their consciences on this issue.

  •  Glad to see you go. (7+ / 0-)

    Proud to have been one of the people who exposed you for what you really are. I was gonna say "DOn't let the door jhit yuou om the way out" but, y'know, if it odes, I own't feel sad.

    The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

    by irishwitch on Tue Nov 13, 2007 at 02:51:21 PM PST

    •  dear irishwitch (0+ / 0-)

      i feel sad that you direct this sort of animosity at another human being.

      really, in the end, what does it achieve?

      •  Nice passive aggressive reply (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        tryptamine, arlene

        Congratulations.  Rather like your diary.  

        ...that cannot be a wise contrivance which in its operation may commit the government of a nation to the wisdom of an idiot. Thomas Paine Rights of Man

        by Rebecca on Tue Nov 13, 2007 at 07:10:53 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  I tacheives HONESTY. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Rebecca, tryptamine

        You don't deserve my respect. People who present themselves as something they are not, are hypocrites--and your God condemned hypocrisy many times.  I am hoenst, you 're the lair.

        More to the point, how dare you call me "dear" int hat passive aggressive, condescending tone?  YOU LIED. I took you on. You LOST,

        HAd I said I'd miss you, I'd be the condescending one and the lair,

        The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

        by irishwitch on Tue Nov 13, 2007 at 08:11:08 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  respect (0+ / 0-)

          every person deserves respect.  simply because they're here.

          of course, that doesn't mean one is required to agree with said person. respect has ample room for disagreements, even very serious ones.  

          so i do wonder if there are ways you could honestly--even angrily--express your disagreements with me without the reach for such accusations as "broad," "hypocrite," and "liar" or casting the disagreement as one in which truth & right exult over the swift, decisive downfall of twofaced evil.  

          •  No.I respect your humanity. (0+ / 0-)

            But I don't respect you yourself or your opinions. Respect  of that sort has to be earned.I use the language I believe is appropriate. You attempted to mislead people here on your opinions, betting they wouldn't check out your site in detail, which makes you a lisr. You link to sites that have been PROVEN, by me and others, to be  rabidly anti-abortion  and one that is even anti any birth control a  all--while claiming to be strongly in favor of contraception, while ignoring any group that does abortion even if it is a tiny percentage of their work, like PP.  That is hypocrisy. HYPOCRISY and LIES make me cranky.

            I don't really care about your feelings--and if you are leaving, just GO.

            The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

            by irishwitch on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 09:45:05 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

  •  Sorry it didn't work out for you (5+ / 0-)

    Keep fighting for what you believe.  I hope that you will consider progressive solutions to this issue,
    because we DO want to reduce abortion rates.  

    Separating a mother and child through adoption is NOT a progressive solution except after every effort has been made to help a family through a crisis.   In fact, I believe there is some predatory behavior going on in this country where women are pressured at a highly emotional time in their lives when they are pregnant or postpartum to make the irrevocable decision to place a baby for adoption.  Advice to foster would be a far more appropriate if there is no way to leave the baby with the mother, so that the mother can have some breathing room to make the decision under less stressful conditions.  

    The best ways to reduce abortion are to address social issues that stress women to the point of desperation, such as drug addiction, prostitution, domestic violence, sexual predators, poverty, access to healthcare, access to effective and convenient birth control, affordable childcare, affordable housing, food security, unemployment and underemployment, inadequate sex education for teens, social stigmas against childbirth outside marriage, foster care laws that discourage fostering within a family by denying state assistance when fostering with a relative.  I could go on and on and on.  

    There is so much to do that we need EVERYONE, and that includes you.  These solutions don't just help reduce abortion rates, they also improve the lives of many more children.

  •  for the record.... (0+ / 0-)

    I am glad and thankful for the thoughtful comments, including thoughtful disagreements, amidst the (to my vantage point unnecessary & unproductive) snark here.

    I do not have some totalistic, self-righteous vendetta against Daily Kos.  Daily Kos has many, many good points.  I just simply don't think this is the appropriate venue for me, personally, to work on the cause of reducing abortion.  And I wanted to explain why, from my vantage point.

    I am not some thinly veiled "Bushie," in fact on the online Political Compass test, I was far out in the left-libertarian corner.  And those European social welfare democracies that conservatives are so afraid of look like excellent examples to me.  Even countries as poor as Jamaica and Ecuador commit to free maternal/child services for all--what's the problem, USA?

    At the same time, I believe that the possibility for lovingkindness and wisdom is not sequestered on one part of the political spectrum or other, it can crop up in the strangest places, and it makes a lot of sense (to me anyway) to try to stay open to that possibility..as difficult and humbling as that can be sometimes...

    Believe it or not, I have witnessed, for example, exemplary mercy on the part of conservative people who adopted several "special-needs" kids or taken in pregnant teens into their own homes or brought nice, homecooked meals to single moms during bad winter weather...Now why such folks don't translate that mercy into the near-socialism I personally embrace in politics, I have no idea  (:  But their mercy and integrity is nevertheless real, and to be learned from, just like mercy from anywhere and anyone else.  

    I fully support voluntary contraception & all other methods of pregnancy prevention--including outercourse & greater social acceptance of samesex relationships; comprehensive sex education; universal health care; comprehensive social supports for all parents and children and families of all sorts, including supports that would make adoption only a last resort according to the birth mother's own choice...

    I support all these measures as life-respecting, life-affirming goods in and of themselves and for their value in reducing abortion.  All these measures and many more...

    I have personally worked however I could on each of these issues for decades.  

    The phrase "nonviolent choice" is not some slick PR concealment-- it really does express how I and many other people look upon issues of life and death and reproductive health.  We see abortion as violent lifetaking, however it is equally violence to deny women the nonviolent means of avoiding it, to treat women's lives as if women were not as precious and sacred as any other human beings.

    I thought of this phrase, nonviolent choice, after hearing the Dalai Lama speak on several occasions of the great need for "nonviolent birth control," by which he meant voluntary, non-abortion methods.

    I thought the phrase "nonviolent choice" aptly summed up the stance of those who really do object to abortion as a form of lifetaking just as we seek to heal other forms of lifetaking--and who simultaneously of course! advocate for what are sometimes called "the rest of the choices."

    However, how can I advocate for them here, and join prochoice-on-abortion people in advocating for them here, in this climate of dismissiveness and suspicion, which so distracts from the immense practical need to alleviate the sufferings of women that result in so many abortions?  An immense need that people on both "sides" recognize and are moved to address...

    •  I hate long good-bye's, don't you? n/t (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Rebecca, lightiris, sbdenmon

      Maybe Bush can pay for one child's health care in turn for his and Laura's health care being paid for by the taxpayers when he leaves office.

      by gooderservice on Tue Nov 13, 2007 at 06:23:56 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  "nonviolent choice" (5+ / 0-)

      Does that mean someone who exercises her right to choose is violent?  That those who support the right to choose are violent?

      "Nonviolent choice" is a phrase you've conveniently invented to propose the notion that those who don't agree with your "nonviolence" are, indeed, violent--and that's just bullshit.  You don't get to decide the terms of the discourse and attribute characteristics to people against their will.  I, for one, reject wholly your notion of "nonviolent choice."  I reject your framing of the debate one that posits "violent" against "nonviolent"; it is illegitimate, inaccurate, and self-serving.  

      You really are a piece of work.  

      It's all fun and games until the Vice President shoots someone in the face.

      by lightiris on Tue Nov 13, 2007 at 06:30:46 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  You're right. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Rebecca, lightiris, tryptamine

        She's just trying out the new think-tank approach of these groups who want to violently commandeer a woman's body for nine months and violently force her to serve as in incubator for a fetus, that they can then indoctrinate into whatever their cause or belief of the day is.

        I agree, they think that if they can change the words, they'll get more support.  They can try and use new words all they want, but it won't change the fact that women still will have control over their bodies -- no one else will.

        Maybe Bush can pay for one child's health care in turn for his and Laura's health care being paid for by the taxpayers when he leaves office.

        by gooderservice on Tue Nov 13, 2007 at 06:38:51 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  from the desk of the "piece of work" (0+ / 0-)

        if someone identifies a particular practice as violent...that is not necessarily intended as an indictment of the motives or intentions of the persons involved in  or advocating or defending the right to said action.  nor as a lack of empathy for the many, diverse, complicated reasons why people might be associated with the practice.  

        it can be a questioning of the practice itself, and of the wider social and political institutions that appear to make it necessary or rational or inevitable or indispensable.

        there are many compassionate, thoughtful people who defend a right to abortion through peaceful, democratic means.  i do not equate them for one minute with hurlers of molotov cocktails or shooters of abortion providers.  i do question the practice that they believe, for all their good reasons, people have a right to.  and hope with so many of them, that there can be better solutions than this for women's serious, complex, wideranging problems.

        •  You're peeing on me and telling me it's raining (0+ / 0-)

          there are many compassionate, thoughtful people who defend a right to abortion through peaceful, democratic means.

          There aren't "many;" it's all of us who do this through peaceful and democratic means.  I've never heard of an instance where a woman's pro-choice supporter shot anyone, unlike people in the groups you support who have.

          i do question the practice that they believe, for all their good reasons, people have a right to.

          You question the practice of abortion. Of course you do.  We all know that.  So like I said, don't "pee on me and tell me it's raining."  You're in favor of brainwashing and trying to extort a woman into not ending a pregnancy, of course which is her choice -- not yours.  
          With all your convoluted use of words and deception, we still see through you and what your real agenda is.

          As I said before, Good-Bye.  You keep saying you're leaving, but you're still heerre.  

          Maybe Bush can pay for one child's health care in turn for his and Laura's health care being paid for by the taxpayers when he leaves office.

          by gooderservice on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 08:10:38 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  it would be rather unkind... (0+ / 0-)

    if i just cut out without at least some rudimentary attempt to address people's concerns & comments here.

    •  Quite the contrary... (0+ / 0-)

      It would be merciful if you just left without providing any commentary.  Bye-Bye.

      Maybe Bush can pay for one child's health care in turn for his and Laura's health care being paid for by the taxpayers when he leaves office.

      by gooderservice on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 08:11:33 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  my parting word on contraception (0+ / 0-)

    See how much good you can do with a ten dollar bill...
    http://nonviolentchoice.blogspot.com...

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