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So here we are in almost 2008 and we still have to listen to religious extremists such as this current Pope, a man who regularly spouts rhetoric of hate and intolerance towards gays and lesbians.  Now Osama's "christian" counterpart wants to exorcise folks on the internets.  

I kid you not, see blockquote below.

I have something to tell this confused conservative who would turn back the clock a thousand years and bring back "exorcisms" which has resulted in dead children and is a practice akin to snake handling purification rituals.  What's next Ratzinger? The burning of heretics at the stake?

Or maybe Ratzinger is bemoaning the fact that Jesus' teachings about the temple of the body made it into the current, otherwise heavily-edited Bible and he's trying the age-old distraction technique again to deflect from that concept being more understood?

This guy's a joke.  To the Catholics I offend, my apologies.  It's time to reject this brute Ratzinger and his medieval views.

The Pope has ordered his bishops to set up exorcism squads to tackle the rise of Satanism.

Vatican chiefs are concerned at what they see as an increased interest in the occult.

They have introduced courses for priests to combat what they call the most extreme form of "Godlessness."

The Vatican is particularly concerned that young people are being exposed to the influence of Satanic sects through rock music and the Internet.

I have not ONCE met a satanist.  And I could give a shit about the occult.

As far as I'm concerned, followers of the occult and any "church," "temple," or "mosque" for that matter are all relics of an ignorant, medieval mindset that allow "church"-based hate-crimes to occur.

So Ratzinger must be refering to people like me on the internet who tell people like Ratzinger that he should look in the mirror if he's looking to find evil in the world.

His money-changers must be feeling the pinch now and has decided to deploy exorcist squads.

What a joke.

He and his evangelical counterparts are no better than Osama Bin Laden and his chump ass murderous freaks.

Unfortunately, this article reads like it's a joke or a farce.  It is not.  Ratzinger's "exorcistinchief" has this to say:

"Thanks be to God, we have a Pope who has decided to fight the Devil head-on," he said.

"Too many bishops are not taking this seriously and are not delegating their priests in the fight against the Devil. You have to hunt high and low for a properly trained exorcist.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/...

God exists, just not in the temples of man.

He/she/it exists in every connected atom of the universe and he/she/it is just trying to comprehend himself/herself/itself.

Originally posted to a gnostic on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 07:36 PM PST.

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Comment Preferences

    •  your diary is hateful and unfair (5+ / 0-)

      "Accurate scholarship will unearth the whole offense....[will] learn ...what huge imago made a psychopathic god." -W H Auden

      by Orpheus on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 08:23:17 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  This is an old story being promoted by the aging (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Caj, xanthe, marykk

      Fr. Amorth....  Like an old soldier telling war stories.  (or author hawking a book)

      See also my prior note down-thread.


      There are no quotes from the Pope
      in the Daily Mail article and there have been no new papal edicts since 2000 - which in fact, the revision of the rites of exorcism, were set in motion by Vatican Council II (long time ago).

      In 2000, these are excerpts from a Catholic scholar who reviewed Amorth's first book....

      Amorth makes, however, the astounding claim to have personally performed 30,000* exorcisms over nine years (p. 169), a claim that surpasses the credulity of even the most favorably-disposed reader. And even though this particular claim appears late in the book, a careful reader will encounter many other problems throughout the work.

            I begin by noting that Fr. Benedict Groeschel wrote one of the most tepid forewords to a book I have ever seen. "At first I declined," he noted, and then he continued, "...I have difficulties with Fr. Amorth’s approach. He writes of this intriguing subject in ways quite foreign to the ideas of the English-speaking world...he uses rhetoric foreign to most of us and even theological concepts alien to our way of thinking..." Groeschel’s concerns are justified

      Go to your window [and http://youtube.com/watch?v=90ELleCQvew]

      by coffeeinamrica on Sat Dec 29, 2007 at 05:54:29 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  I actually have met a few satanists (9+ / 0-)

    And guess what? They were both products of a good Catholic education. This is no coincidence.

    •  well, Satan is a Christian Deity (6+ / 0-)

      or at least, demi-god, and Satanism is a Christian heresy.

      •  angel I think... (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        xanthe, coigue, Quotefiend, marykk

        IIRC...a fallen one at that.

        Undecided Democratic Voter...okay?

        by kredwyn on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 09:45:24 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  or is he Jesus' brother? (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          kredwyn, Quotefiend, beltane

          ask Mit

          You cannot stand in front of progress for your country because of your fears, you must stand behind Her in spite of them.

          by coigue on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 11:54:20 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  The fairest of the angels according (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          kredwyn, marykk, beltane

          to tradition and the most powerful - Michael notwithstanding.

          What's the plan? The plan is I go in and start hitting people in the face hard. (Angel, from the Series)

          by xanthe on Sat Dec 29, 2007 at 03:07:07 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Lucifer (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            xanthe

            "bearer of light"

            If you think you're too small to be effective, you've never been in the dark with a mosquito.

            by marykk on Sat Dec 29, 2007 at 08:13:21 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Wonderful short story by Taylor Caldwell (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              marykk

              in a compendium called I think Grandmother and the Priests  An old Irish priest - simple really and living in a poor, rural area (sort of the kind of priest some posters may make fun of) is visited by a handsome, intelligent, charming young man one cold, dark winter evening.  It is Lucifer - and he tries to seduce the priest thru intelligence and wit (works with me!)  The priest resists Lucifer - I really should look the story up and reread.  I think the priest dies shortly after Lucifer leaves, but I may have forgotten.  What I was struck by was the power, the oftimes ostensible beauty of evil, the charm of evil.  And I think one of the themes of the story is that simplicity is powerful - more powerful against evil than convoluted and sly knowledge.  And I surely have been seduced in my own life - as all of us have whether we know it or not.  

              What's the plan? The plan is I go in and start hitting people in the face hard. (Angel, from the Series)

              by xanthe on Sat Dec 29, 2007 at 04:02:01 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

    •  Satanism (0+ / 0-)

      Basically, Satanism is nothing more than saying "I myself am God!" and it is directed against all religions, though it derives from and primarily attacks the Judeo-Christian tradition (Satan).

      Also, if you go with LaVey, you get some kind of Satanist Commandments, which are actually quite libertarian and fair. Sex is important, as well as magic (though I'm not familiar about the magic stuff).

      But the overarching theme is individual freedom.

      And Black Masses have nothing to do with modern "Church of Satan" Satanism, it's all catholic propaganda and teenage idiocy.

      FUCK YEAH DETHKLOK!!!!!!!!!!! The Dethalbum is BRUTAL! It's so brutal it makes people vomit their own shit and piss on a dog!!!!!!!! - Legacy, MySpace

      by cwkraus4clark on Sat Dec 29, 2007 at 12:23:59 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  I've known two (0+ / 0-)

      One was a lonely, bitter intellectual kind of guy - lonely till he got married to this weird chick. They had a baby that died of SIDS. Very, very sad.
      The other was a rather close friend of mine, at one point, until he turned out to be a backstabbing POS and...well...EVIL.
      Who'd'a thunk it?
      I won't tell you what ended the friendship, except to say that it was a crime perpetrated on a third party involving a drug.

  •  If the internet is so baaaaad... (9+ / 0-)

    Why did they choose it to make their announcement?

    The initiative was revealed by 82-year-old Father Gabriele Amorth, the Vatican "exorcistinchief," to the online Catholic news service Petrus.
    [from the story linked in the diary, emphasis mine]

    Next they'll be announcing a rock anthem to spread the word on religious radio!

    Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies. -- Groucho Marx

    by PBCliberal on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 07:46:16 PM PST

    •  Nice catch! (7+ / 0-)

      Pope Fester is just trying to outdo the fundies who are taking over what once was the Catholic world.  He's learned you won't keep your flock if you don't pump them full of hatred and get some good xenophobia going.

      And he's playing his hole card: exorcism!  That's one Dobson and the boys will find hard to match now that they've failed to resurrect Falwell.

      (-7.75, -7.69) No matter how cynical I get, I just can't keep up - Lily Tomlin

      by john07801 on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 08:08:22 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  if you said anything like this about Jews (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        aitchdee, xanthe, Quotefiend

        half of DailyKos would be after your head.

        The worst part about your rant is its ignorance:  you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

        "Pumping full of hatred"  and "xenophobia"???

        "Accurate scholarship will unearth the whole offense....[will] learn ...what huge imago made a psychopathic god." -W H Auden

        by Orpheus on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 09:45:49 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Frankly, what John is talking about... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        PBCliberal

        is the hatred and superstition practiced in small communities in impoverished nations encouraged and abetting by the Catholic Church.  People who have invited evangelicals into their homes have been tracked down and killed as "witches."  People who entertain Protestant concepts are ostracized from communities.  Miniature civil wars break out in neighborhoods and between villages around Central and Latin America over these issues.  The flames are fanned by Rome.

        These local and sometimes indigenous conflicts have been documented by sociologists, anthropologists and others, in books, scholarly studies, etc. It's no myth. It's no fallacy. These things are taking place.  

        Here's one older book describing village fragmentation falling the arrival of protestantism: Village That Chose Progress: Chan Kom Revisited. Author: Redfield, Robert.  There are other recent news accounts of mob actions, "witch" killings, and even the exclusion of indigenous Catholic priests from churches in Central America, so that Rome's guidelines are strictly followed.

        I submit that it is Orpheus who doesn't know what is being talked about here. And the constant "grow up" theme seems only to imitate the Daddy Pope image that so many find objectionable.  It certainly doesn't help the discussion.

  •  For crying out loud (8+ / 0-)

    Isn't the world messed up enough without old Benedict jumping on the band wagon?  Let's be sure we alienate just as many people as we can before the whole world blows up.  

    There are Catholics who will hail this as the just and long-delayed return to tradition after the insanity of Vatican II, but this pope is, like our president, a divider, not a uniter.  It is no different than the Muslim or evangelical fundamentalists who seek to gain (or regain) power by suppressing and harassing those of us who look forward with hope rather than backward with nostalgia.  There are no good old days but we can make good new ones despite him and others who want to take us back.  

    He is embarrassing but mostly, he's dangerous!

    "We told the truth. We obeyed the law. We kept the peace." - Walter Mondale

    by luckylizard on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 07:50:07 PM PST

    •  I was born and raised Catholic and left (6+ / 0-)

      the church two years ago to become a Methodist.

      When I grew up during the early 60's, the American Catholic Church was all about the civil rights movement and social justice.  

      When JPII came in and started turning the church in a more conservative direction I started to become more disillusioned.  He was in power for so long and appointed so many conservative bishops and cardinals that the church may not be liberal for a generation or more.  And Ratsinger is even worse, in my opinion.  The final straw was the gay seminarians.  I was out of there.

      When I hear about stuff like this happening in the Catholic church, I feel like I left a bad relationship behind me because now I can sigh and smile and think,  "That's not my problem any more."

      No matter how cynical I get, I can't keep up these days--Lily Tomlin

      by hoosierspud on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 09:12:51 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Vatican is the only counterweight (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      doinaheckuvanutjob, marykk

      with enough influence to nonviolently curb the genocidal tendencies of our own Decider.

      Ratzinger is not the most ideal pope, but inasmuch as he IS German he's GOT to be sensitive to dealing with governments that demonize entire populations and propagandize populations to the point that mob psychology takes over.  

      We Americans have set that demon in motion.

      Who is going to stop it?  The UN?  The demonizers demonize the UN.

      Shall we call on Pastor Hagee and his merry band of hollow-eyed hypnotics to stop the murderous program the US is inflicting on the world?

      The way I see it, Ratz/the Vatican is the only force big enough to pop the Bush/Cheney balloon.

      "Accurate scholarship will unearth the whole offense....[will] learn ...what huge imago made a psychopathic god." -W H Auden

      by Orpheus on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 09:53:50 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  are you kidding me? (5+ / 0-)

        don't hold your breath.

        Look up recent actions against the liberation theologists in the church.

        You cannot stand in front of progress for your country because of your fears, you must stand behind Her in spite of them.

        by coigue on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 11:57:42 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  GWB (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        PBCliberal, YucatanMan, marykk, Orpheus

        and company won't listen to him anymore than he will listen to them. The Church ought to be a moral force in the world but I don't think his German heritage makes him any more or less sensitive to anything.  He knows he's right and has the mantle of infallibility (which is a whole dairy in itself) to wave like a red cape in front of any bull that comes along.

        I am Catholic, born and bred.  After 17 years of Catholic education and many years of teaching in Catholic schools I continue to believe that the Church can and should be a force for good in the world.  That it doesn't always live up to my expectations has sometimes caused me to give up, but mostly, it makes me work harder to realize that goal.  I hope I use the best of my faith to show my students how the example of Jesus is relevant and living in them.  It is no different than my belief that they can bring our country back to the ideals that have been trashed by politicians and corporate thugs.  I may be tilting at windmills, but I am too old to change now.

        "We told the truth. We obeyed the law. We kept the peace." - Walter Mondale

        by luckylizard on Sat Dec 29, 2007 at 06:58:14 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  this man (note the use of that word) (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        YucatanMan

        is a counter weight to no one.

        He was elected by an all male jury (they call themselves princes) to leave the confines of human existence, and to become the holy representative of a make believe god. It is obvious that this transformation is incomplete and incompetent. The last god's messenger  before the Rat, suffered from disease (how can an all powerful god do that?) got shot (what, no magic kevlar?) and died.  

        Now why would a godly messenger suffer from human frailty?

        In the United States, doing good has come to be, like patriotism, a favorite device of persons with something to sell. - Mencken

        by agnostic on Sat Dec 29, 2007 at 07:46:19 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  The way I was taught (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          luckylizard

          live and relate to other people, we called what you wrote, above, hate speech.

          It's not so much that your views are filled with hate, it's that they are so ignorant and ill-informed and substitute your projected animus for reason.  get help.  

          "Accurate scholarship will unearth the whole offense....[will] learn ...what huge imago made a psychopathic god." -W H Auden

          by Orpheus on Sat Dec 29, 2007 at 08:01:57 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  wrong person... (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            YucatanMan, agnostic

            ....that was agnostic... i'm a gnostic, i.e. i try to reveal the history of genocide that the catholic church is rooted in, i.e. when they killed off the original christians, the gnostics, and subverted the bible to a centralized, hateful abomination.

            read up.

          •  condescending much? n/t (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            luckylizard
            •  i love the idea of ignorance - (0+ / 0-)

              simply because I searched, researched, and read any and everything I could about catholicism.  It is very understandable why today's believers wish to distance themselves even from their recent past, much less the murderous history Will and Ariel named "The Dark Ages". Outside of the Bush Administration, and the KGB of the USSR, it is hard to fathom any organization with such a dark, bloody and murderous past, nor one that tried so hard to cover up its multiple wrong-doings.

              In the name of their god, they sought to exterminate various tribes around what is how ISrael; they threw non-believers into dark dungeons for life (luckily for the sufferers, those became suddenly short); they stole the lands and wives and children of those who dared disagree with any point of doctrine; they started the crusades for profit, power and murder; they started wars so bloody and deadly, that only the plagues and influenza compete in terms of percentages. Mao, Hitler, Lenin and Stalin may have had their programs of death, but only the Catholic church managed to keep it going for 2000 years.

              The Rat recently decried the falling church attendance in Europe as being a crisis. I think not. It is a healthy, normal reaction to a deadly sect, one that has brought nothing but death, dishonor, shame and more death to an entire land. The problem is not that europeans love god too little - it is that they know the Catholic Church, and its history, too well.

              The recent past, with falling church going, and political difficulties, has been even worse in some ways. OK, 400 yrs too late, the issue a pseudo-apology to Galileo. Whoopie. That makes everything better, does it?  Well, in the 50-60s, the late 70s, and again in the late 1990s, I would love to hear an honest explanation as to why so many (thousands) of priests in no less than 120 countries, were accused of child abuse. In the Boston area alone, the victims are said to number in the tens of thousands. In Chicago, more than 3,000 credible cases exist, and that was only in the 1990s. (the others were all barred due to a criminal and civil statute of limitations). The victims in the US alone are close to 120,000 children.

              This is not a simple case of human frailty and weakness towards sin, this is a criminal organization. An ORGANIZED CRIMINAL ORGANIZATION.  Under the direction of the Rat, they routinely and regularly  hid documents, denied facts, transfered wrongdoers to other parishes, and after repeated criminal complaints, eventually to countries with no extradition treaties. IN Illinois alone, the judges were so pissed at the discovery and delay games being played by the church that the discovery sanctions alone were apporaching six figures just in one case.

              Ann Burke, a top Illinois supreme court judge (then with the appellate court) chaired a commission to study the church. She was a strong catholic, and even she was repulsed by the actions of he church  - not just in furthering criminal acts by priests, but by the intentional, deliberate, knowing, and possibly criminal actions in hiding those priests, covering up, threatening witnesses, and worse. The RICO statute was mentioned not as a joke, but as a real alternative.

              What is funny is that Ann was appointed to the commission because the man she replaced was so upset at the church antics, that he made some public comments about RICO and criminal fraud on the part of the archdiocese. The Cardinal demanded that he be replaced, only to find Ann's comments even more on the mark and devastating.

              It's not so much that your views are filled with hate, it's that they are so ignorant and ill-informed and substitute your projected animus for reason.  get help.  

              Help in this case would involve long prison sentences for many catholic priests, bishops, even a cardinal or two, at least in Chicago, Boston, New York, Seattle, San Diego, LA, Denver, Atlanta, Detroit, Des Moines - hell, the list is endless.

              You want facts? Talk to the Polish Catholics in Warsaw. or the Irish in Dublin.Your church is a good, loving, religion? Sure, if the recipient of the sodomy is a six year old.

              In the United States, doing good has come to be, like patriotism, a favorite device of persons with something to sell. - Mencken

              by agnostic on Sat Dec 29, 2007 at 01:53:30 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

    •  "He is embarrassing but mostly, he's dangerous!" (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Caj, aitchdee, xanthe, marykk, palantir

      He is embarrassing but mostly, he's dangerous!

      Not only is the pope not dangerous, he's famously not dangerous:  

      How many legions does the pope have?

      How many bombers?  How about nukes, any nukes in the Vatican, Ratz?  

      No, the Vatican is a non-proliferating state.

      What is dangerous is reckless rhetoric that brays uncritically about a "dangerous" pope.

      "Accurate scholarship will unearth the whole offense....[will] learn ...what huge imago made a psychopathic god." -W H Auden

      by Orpheus on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 09:57:18 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  If rhetoric is dangerous... (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        coigue, Quotefiend, YucatanMan

        ...then the pope's rhetoric that attempts to deny salvation to people to compel them to believe and act as he does is far more dangerous than some comment posted on dKos.

        The pope doesn't need bombers or nukes to instill fear and hatred. The fact he doesn't have them is insignificant.

        Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies. -- Groucho Marx

        by PBCliberal on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 10:13:22 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Reckless (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        YucatanMan

        Perhaps.  Those who "brayed" about GWB prior to the 2000 election may have been guilty of the same thing.  Granted, he has an army but he has also done incredible damage with his mouth, too, and he can't threaten people with eternal damnation.  (There really are a lot of people for whom that is a big deal.)

        I understand your point of view but the Church remains a force, both politically and financially, and to ignore what this man says because he doesn't have his own army is not prudent, IMHO. He can stir up millions of people whose governments do have armies and that makes me really nervous.

        "We told the truth. We obeyed the law. We kept the peace." - Walter Mondale

        by luckylizard on Sat Dec 29, 2007 at 06:46:39 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  I can't think of one Catholic I know (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Ahianne, luckylizard

      who would "hail" this.  Actually we don't pay as much attention to him as you guys do.

      What's the plan? The plan is I go in and start hitting people in the face hard. (Angel, from the Series)

      by xanthe on Sat Dec 29, 2007 at 02:47:05 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Unfortunately (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        chigh

        I do know some of those in the Church who will think it's great.  What amazes me is that many of them are younger than I am.  They really don't remember what the Church was before Vatican II but somehow they want to revert to it.  It could be the "good old days" thing but I think it is a symptom of the same disease that affects fundamentalists of other faiths.  When everything else looks crappy it's easy to imagine God taking care of everything if we only  keep to the letter of the law (their own interpretation, of course).

        I'm glad you don't know any people like that.  I try not to interact with those I know who do   I may be as bad as they are in my own way because I really miss John XXIII...

        "We told the truth. We obeyed the law. We kept the peace." - Walter Mondale

        by luckylizard on Sat Dec 29, 2007 at 06:39:26 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Well you have to hang out with (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          marykk, luckylizard

          the right people, lucky.  I know there are conservative Catholics - perhaps instinctively I stay away from them - as life is short.

          What's the plan? The plan is I go in and start hitting people in the face hard. (Angel, from the Series)

          by xanthe on Sat Dec 29, 2007 at 07:55:24 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  Really, I mean who cares? I was reared as (6+ / 0-)

    a Catholic, and am an atheist now. If they want to chase after Satan, let them.

    And BTW: Miroslav Satan scored his 666th point yesterday.

    "Americans can always be counted on to do the right thing...after they have exhausted all other possibilities." -- Winston Churchill

    by Spud1 on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 07:50:49 PM PST

    •  Most likely because those they fix (5+ / 0-)

      their focus upon will be "real life" human beings, not "Satan."

      And thus, this decree is bound to cause more horror and hate than we already have.

      UNLESS... of course... they show up when both Bush and Cheney are in the same room.  Now theah be some DEEEMONS in need of castin OWT!

      •   bound to cause more horror and hate (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Caj, aitchdee, xanthe

        And thus, this decree is bound to cause more horror and hate than we already have.

        are there a bunch of high school freshmen on this forum?  

        How does one go from, "Pope wants to exorcise Satanism" to "bound to cause more horror and hate than we already have?"

        Does exorcism involve depleted uranium? or millions of cluster bombs?  Is the pope planning to build walls around entire towns and villages, or shut off water to a million people?  How about this:  is the pope intent on economically sabotaging an entire sovereign nation  ?  Did the pope just blow himself up in Pakistan because he's so pissed off at the way his country is being run?

        When you communicate, use reason & logic; it burnishes the edges of hate.

        "Accurate scholarship will unearth the whole offense....[will] learn ...what huge imago made a psychopathic god." -W H Auden

        by Orpheus on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 10:06:15 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Oh for crying out loud....! (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          PBCliberal

          "reason and logic" when we are talking about Medieval superstitions involving devil possession and exorcism?

          That's just daft.

          Here's the deal:  Sending forth teams of exorcists is just another exploitation of other peoples' fears.

          Is the Pope operating on the stupidly excessive level of evil as George W Bush?  Hard to say.  He doesn't wield weapons of war - in the physical sense.

          But how much damage is done to the psyches of people assaulted by his obtuse adherence to antiquated notions of fealty, control, and guilt?

          When you communicate, remember that there may be more than one way to see the actions of an institution.  I have no hate for Catholics. I have plenty of scorn for this pope and his history. His long campaign against gay people is a moral and pyschological pogrom.

        •  asdf (0+ / 0-)

          bunch of high school freshmen

          Seems like you've got the "othering" concept down pretty good.

  •  Send one of those exorcism squads (15+ / 0-)

    over to the White House to work on Bush and Cheney. When they're done, send them over to the Minority leadership in the Capitol Building. Then send another squad over to FEMA and the think tanks. And another one to clean out Labor, Justice, Education, and the Republican presidential convention, too!

  •  Sometimes I think he's raving bipolar (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Ahianne, Quotefiend

    He says stuff like this, and then sometimes he says stuff like this.  Go figure.

    If you think you're too small to be effective, you've never been in the dark with a mosquito.

    by marykk on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 08:06:52 PM PST

  •  I just hope he doesn't throw the election (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Quotefiend, irishwitch

    to the Repubs again.

    The man is a raving bigot, but he has way too many followers in normally Democratic states - which makes him a dangerous nut job

    Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. - Sam J. Ervin, Jr.

    by tiponeill on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 08:16:53 PM PST

    •  Accurate scholarship will unearth the whole (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      musing85, aitchdee, xanthe, marykk

      offense.....

      perhaps a bit more specificity in the charges you hurl, a bit less of labelling and name calling, would produce a bit more peace and a bit less anger.

      The pope did NOT 'throw the election to the Repubs' the first time.  

      "Accurate scholarship will unearth the whole offense....[will] learn ...what huge imago made a psychopathic god." -W H Auden

      by Orpheus on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 08:26:53 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  specificity? (4+ / 0-)

        you know this.  the whole paraphrasing "it's a sin in the eyes of the church to vote for a pro-choice candidate"....

        that's threatening damnation in catholic-speak.

        that's quite like osama releasing HIS pre-election videos...

      •  I think the Catholic Church in my diocese (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        melo, PBCliberal, Quotefiend

        did all it could to scuttle the democrats.  I was attending and active in my downtown semi-progressive parish when the bishop threw down the gauntlet in Michigan.

        Seven Michigan diocese combined resources for a campaign to GOTV to pass a Sanctity in Marriage law against gays and lesbians in 2004.  Now I am Catholic.  But I am not an idiot.  It was all around us down to the glossy brochures costing hundreds of thousands to circulate by mail and parish.

        It was concerted and coordinated with the dozens or so efforts throughout the country to whip up voters to the polls.
        There was little talk about Iraq, torture, and every other relevant issue directly against the church's own pronouncements and teachings.
        Nothing but gay this, gay that 24/7.
        Oh and maybe whether or not we should allow John Kerry communion in one of our churches.  Despicable.

        •  Isn't Michigan home to Domino Pizza (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Ahianne, PBCliberal, xanthe, marykk

          guy's Ave Maria law school and that whole cell of right-wingers who are closely aligned with organizations and folks like The Wanderer, Richard Neuhaus and D James Kennedy and Jay Sekulow?  

          Without doing the research, I would hazard a guess that the well-financed campaign in your diocese came from a powerful, wealthy splinter group like those folks.  They're not in the hierarchy but no doubt some priests & bishops suck up to them -- they've got money.

          "Accurate scholarship will unearth the whole offense....[will] learn ...what huge imago made a psychopathic god." -W H Auden

          by Orpheus on Sat Dec 29, 2007 at 12:10:14 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  Holy Rock'n'Roll, Batshit (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Quotefiend, irishwitch, eastmt

    Kieth Moon ain't coming back to answer any questions.

    Take that, jazz.

    "Peace is more distant than might be thought." - Subcommandante Marcos.

    by walkshills on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 08:26:35 PM PST

  •  Talk about creepy (5+ / 0-)

    Just as I hit the button to Recommend this diary, thc counter on my tape deck turned over to 666.

    No kidding.

  •  a gnostic - (5+ / 0-)

    if you haven't seen it, you might enjoy this.

    peace

    As nightfall does not come all at once, neither does oppression. - Justice William O. Douglas

    by occams hatchet on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 08:37:08 PM PST

  •  This Pope has set the Catholic Church back. Too (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    coigue, Quotefiend, agnostic

    bad that John Paul's legacy is being squandered by this Ex-Nazi.

  •  Yep, that's the way (6+ / 0-)

    to get more voters into the big Democratic tent--malign their religious beliefs. This is the kind of shit that turns off voters. Jesus Christ ;o
      Hey, dare ya to pick on Mohammed!

    Seriously, I'm an atheist but I don't post religious or anti-religious rants on political sites. A little mocking, yeah. But the bile should be kept to a minimum.

    Unfortunately our politicians are either incompetent or corrupt. Sometimes both on the same day--Woody Allen

    by Libertaria on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 08:41:22 PM PST

    •  What about the possibility that (4+ / 0-)

      Benedict is maligning the religious beliefs of Christians, by asserting that Jesus would approve of his actions? I mean, really:

      You have to hunt high and low for a properly trained exorcist.

      I for one have a hard time respecting that kind of assertion. Sorry.

      As nightfall does not come all at once, neither does oppression. - Justice William O. Douglas

      by occams hatchet on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 09:15:05 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  You missed my point (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        aitchdee, YucatanMan, marykk

        Benedict isn't up for election by Amercian voters. This site is dedicated to getting Dems elected and maligning various religious sects ain't the way to do it.

        Unfortunately our politicians are either incompetent or corrupt. Sometimes both on the same day--Woody Allen

        by Libertaria on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 09:21:43 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  By any means necessary? (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Quotefiend, YucatanMan

          We could adopt as our party platform the doctrine of papal inerrancy and see if we could get the Catholic Church to backhandedly endorse us the way the Republicans work the Robertson/Dobson crowd.

          The official position of the Catholic Church is at odds with a lot of what I believe and what my party has come to believe, sometimes through the repeated prodding of the liberal wing, which I am a proud member.

          It takes a lot more than just getting Dems elected, or we'd be bringing soldiers home since 2006 not sending more.

          Its sad and amazing that telling the truth about a religious sect and maligning it can be seen as the same thing.

          Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies. -- Groucho Marx

          by PBCliberal on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 09:59:15 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  your rant would be pathetic (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            marykk, Libertaria

            if it rose to the level of coherence.

            as it is, it's merely an exercise in hurling anti-Catholic slurs, grasping at concepts you obviously know little about and flinging them in a sad attempt to gain attention.

            What "official position of the Catholic Church" do you think you are talking about?

            Its sad and amazing that telling the truth about a religious sect and maligning it can be seen as the same thing.

            The Catholic Church is NOT a "religious sect."  And you wouldn't know "truth" if it bit you on your ass.

            "Accurate scholarship will unearth the whole offense....[will] learn ...what huge imago made a psychopathic god." -W H Auden

            by Orpheus on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 10:13:20 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  There are two official positions... (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Quotefiend, YucatanMan

              ...that are very important to me that I find at odds with our party--or at least where our party has been of late.

              One is a woman's right to choose, the other is the church's position on homosexuality.

              My use of "religious sect" was in response to:

              This site is dedicated to getting Dems elected and maligning various religious sects ain't the way to do it.

              but strictly speaking, I don't see a problem with describing Catholics as a sect of Christianity, or even as a sect of "Catholic" religions, including Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodoxm etc. A religious sect is a group that has split from another group, and that is certainly true for Roman Catholics, though we most often use sect to describe much smaller groups.

              I see a whole lot of bile and personal attack in your response, and not a lot of substantive objections.

              Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies. -- Groucho Marx

              by PBCliberal on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 10:26:31 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I see a whole lot of ignorance (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Caj, xanthe

                in your writing.

                I see a whole lot of bile and personal attack in your response, and not a lot of substantive objections.

                You betcha there's bile in my responses; I will not sit quietly and have you malign Catholicism, particularly as you do not know what you are talking about.

                As for my responses lacking "substantive objections," you write something as nonsensical as this and accuse me of lacking substance??

                If rhetoric is dangerous... ...then the pope's rhetoric that attempts to deny salvation to people to compel them to believe and act as he does is far more dangerous than some comment posted on dKos.
                The pope doesn't need bombers or nukes to instill fear and hatred. The fact he doesn't have them is insignificant.

                sheesh, where to start?

                1. Where in the article cited does the pope use rhetoric that would "deny salvation to people to compel them" to do ANYTHING?

                 Popes don't "grant" or "deny" salvation; you gots ta save yerself, honeychile, no one's gonna do your savin' work for you. Is that what's got you so feared up?

                1. Where are you getting this "instilling fear and hatred" screed?  Nothing in the article or the diary says anything about fear and hatred; the article cited is about evil in the world and the pope's reflection that people should be taught to pray for the strength to resist it or remove it --kinda like having a virus control and spyware removal tool.  Perhaps you are projecting "fear and hatred;" fear and hatred certainly are not in any way discussed or incited by the Pope's counsel that people should be aware that evil is a concrete force in the world.
                1.  

                "The pope doesn't need nukes or bombers to instill fear and hatred.  The fact that he doesn't have them is insignificant."

                The NIE reported that Iran was not developing nuclear weapons but Israel wants to attack Iran anyway because Israel "fears and hates" Iran because Iran sends money to Palestinians to resist Israel's aggression.  
                The same logic seems to apply to your statement.  You say, The pope doesn't have nukes and bombers but that's insignificant; in effect, you're saying, it doesn't matter what the pope has or says, you intend to hate him.

                We've already concluded that nothing the pope said in the diary/article indicates the pope's agenda is to 'instill fear and hatred,' so your statement is balloon juice. There's nothing left of it.  

                No substantive objections.  But substantially objectionable.

                "Accurate scholarship will unearth the whole offense....[will] learn ...what huge imago made a psychopathic god." -W H Auden

                by Orpheus on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 11:52:41 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

            •  yet more "othering"... (0+ / 0-)

              you seem to practice that against which you preach.

              BTW, a "sect" is anyone else's religion.  Much like MY religion is THEIR myth...

              My admiration of the Catholic church comes from countless small pueblos I've seen where the churches are adorned with gold, plump friars enjoying life while the people, literally poor as dirt, scraping to get a morsel to eat. The inherent evil in denying birth control to people unable to feed themselves, let alone another child is just as evil as dropping bombs on people.

              The Roman Catholic Church is not catholic, i.e. all-encompassing or universal.  There are even many varieties of "Catholics", let alone all the other types of Christians in the world.

              The word sect comes from the Latin sects (from sequire to follow), meaning (1) a course of action or way of life, (2) a behavioural code or founding principles, (3) a specific philosophical school or doctrine. ... A sectator is a loyal guide, adherent or follower.

          •  Red herring (0+ / 0-)

            And false choice. Avoiding maligning a religion is not the same as endorsing its platform. Simple enough for you?

            Unfortunately our politicians are either incompetent or corrupt. Sometimes both on the same day--Woody Allen

            by Libertaria on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 10:23:50 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  That red herring comment (0+ / 0-)

              was directed to PCBLiberal.

              I don't see you maligning Islam. Does that mean your endorsing its platform. Do you understand the distinction now?

              Unfortunately our politicians are either incompetent or corrupt. Sometimes both on the same day--Woody Allen

              by Libertaria on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 10:26:53 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I see you changing the subject (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Quotefiend, YucatanMan, a gnostic

                This is about the pope. There is a serious debate raging among conservative catholics over whether politicians who do not vote in accordance with church policy should be excommunicated for their votes.

                When the diary is about Islam and a powerful imam who holds sway over a fairly large population of adherents in this country, and similar issues are raised you will see me maligning the way Islam is practiced by that imam and its effect on our government.

                I am not maligning Christianity, I'm maligning the actions of the theoretically infallible head of a sect of that religion. For somebody trying to point out distinctions, you don't seem astute at recognizing them yourself.

                And while we're on the subject of reading and comprehension, its PBCliberal.

                Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies. -- Groucho Marx

                by PBCliberal on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 10:35:00 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Since ballots are secret (0+ / 0-)

                  how would they be excommunicated for their vote?

                  I'm no expert on Catholicism but I would think that "conservative" Catholics would consider the Pope infallible and not "theoretically" so. Or maybe you could give me your definition of "conservative Catholic."

                  You still haven't answered my point that not maligning a religion is not the same as endorsing its platform.

                  Unfortunately our politicians are either incompetent or corrupt. Sometimes both on the same day--Woody Allen

                  by Libertaria on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 10:41:36 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Sources please, for the 'raging debate' (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  xanthe

                  There is a serious debate raging among conservative catholics over whether politicians who do not vote in accordance with church policy should be excommunicated for their votes.

                  "Accurate scholarship will unearth the whole offense....[will] learn ...what huge imago made a psychopathic god." -W H Auden

                  by Orpheus on Sat Dec 29, 2007 at 12:20:21 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Try... (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    YucatanMan

                    excommunication.net for starters. I've followed the story in the MSM so that is not my source, but a simple web search yielded this.

                    I bet a little web searching would yield lots more. Let me know if you continue to have trouble.

                    Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies. -- Groucho Marx

                    by PBCliberal on Sat Dec 29, 2007 at 01:58:11 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

        •  "Isn't up for election"? (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          PBCliberal, Quotefiend, YucatanMan

          Neither are healthcare insurance companies, arms manufacturers, televangelists who solicit gay escorts for meth, Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter, Chinese toy companies, Exxon Mobil, or Archer Daniels Midland. So I guess we'd better not discuss any of them, either.

          I'm sure I've forgotten some.

          As nightfall does not come all at once, neither does oppression. - Justice William O. Douglas

          by occams hatchet on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 11:30:29 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  the difference is (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Ahianne

            healthcare insurance companies, arms manufacturers, televangelists...., Rush & Coulter, Chinese toy companies, Exxon, and ADM are directly implicated in issues important to the American electorate.

            The Pope's counsel that there is evil in the world, that the abstract concept "evil" is 'reified' by attaching to it the concrete image of 'devil' or 'Satan,' and that people should be taught to pray to resist the forces of evil or to remove them if they are affected by evil, is a spiritual counsel to people who share a bond of spiritual community.  It's not a political issue, it's not a Democratic issue, it's not a Republican issue, it's not an American issue.  It's a conversation between the pope and the people he leads.

            "Accurate scholarship will unearth the whole offense....[will] learn ...what huge imago made a psychopathic god." -W H Auden

            by Orpheus on Sat Dec 29, 2007 at 12:02:27 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I must say Orpheus - to you (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Ahianne, marykk

              and Libertaria - it's a lost cause.  Don't bother really.  I usually don't read these diaries and don't comment.  Why now?  maybe because it's 4 am.

              There is much wrong with the Church - it is a human endeavor as well as a divine one after all.

              But as a practicing Catholic, I thank you both for your thoughtful comments.  The Church has lasted a long time -

              What's the plan? The plan is I go in and start hitting people in the face hard. (Angel, from the Series)

              by xanthe on Sat Dec 29, 2007 at 02:25:49 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

  •  I HAVE met a Satanist and he was (11+ / 0-)

    a sick puppy, top put it politely. A socipath of the first water.

    I suspect a LOT of the Pope's angst is centered on Wiccans and Pagans who are, to him, the same as Satanists.  I can tell you what my6 response to him is: a raised middle finger fol;lowed by a full moon..

    I LEFT Catholicism because ancient celibate men were telling married couples how to have sex and how many kids to have (as many as possible). They were tellign gay men and women to live the lives of monks (while their priests were molesting altar boys!), and tellign women they MUST be either nuns, sopinters or wives and mothers.  Noc areers for married owmen.   To Ratzi the Nazi, I say:  STFU.

    and the exorcism thing was very nonexistent until we got JPII in. He was n the 12 the century. Ratzi wanyts to gonack even firther to the dark Ages

    The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

    by irishwitch on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 09:16:12 PM PST

    •  Well, they haven't started selling 'indulgences' (6+ / 0-)

      just yet.  And the Latin mass is...ok, there's a bunch of Catholics churches trying to bring it back, but it's not 'canon' yet.  Nothing's been said about the need for an Inquisition.  The Crusade...ok, we got that.

      When life gives you wingnuts, make wingnut butter!

      by antirove on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 09:37:36 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Give 'em time. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Quotefiend, john07801

        Actually the Inquisition still exists--Ratzi headed it. They just gave it a kinder, gentler name.  But the auto de fe isn't aroudn the corner yet....

        The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

        by irishwitch on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 09:45:21 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I agree with you. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          PBCliberal, a gnostic

          The Inquisition IS the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. They can't seem to see that the evil they are afraid of is in their mirror. Satan is a Christian construct.

          I'll stand by Irishwitch. I'm tired of being told that just because I had the misfortune to be brought up Catholic, that I had no right to leave it. (I was born pre-Vatican 2) I'm now a Wiccan and have been practicing for decades. I've been Pagan since birth, but had no choice in the matter until I was an adult. No Pope is going to tell me how to live my life.

          Yes, Ratzinger's exorcism policy is a step backwards hundreds of years. I predict that he will bring the Catholic Church to ruination by not stepping into the 21st Century. This is almost 2008...not 1608.

          As I read the article referenced, I thought, Thank Goddess I left that place long ago. My choice to leave was the right one.

          As for auto de fe...that practice, and the other tortures, are just waiting in the wings. Can we say...eeeevil?

          To all those who will leave the church because of such idiocy, we welcome you.

          Glad I'm not Catholic any more,

          Q.

          -7.13, -6.36 "Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it." ~~ George Bernard Shaw

          by Quotefiend on Sat Dec 29, 2007 at 02:06:09 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Who told you that - (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            marykk

            that you had no right to leave the Catholic faith?  

            Just curious.

            What's the plan? The plan is I go in and start hitting people in the face hard. (Angel, from the Series)

            by xanthe on Sat Dec 29, 2007 at 02:40:23 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  I don't hate the Church per se. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            PBCliberal

            There are some good and beautiful things about it, still, and I understand why some of my closest friends chose to stay. I am just not good at pretending I accept ideas I can't buy into. Ratzi however I consider positively medieval and leading the church back into Darkness and intoleranceand yes, superstittion.

            I suspecttyhe only peopel who udnerstand why soem of people who leave ,loathe the chutch are thsoe who have eascapoed fundamentalism, liek dogemperor. It canbe that oppressive if parents are Catholic League Catholics who freak at questioning. Mine weren't happy I left, butt hey respected me when I finally mae  it clear that I was nologner attending Mass with them (only after Imoved home when my firsthsuband died did I put the fopot down--I told them it was that or me muttering durign sermons or getting u[p in protest every time thet shoved the anti-choice message at us_.

            The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

            by irishwitch on Sat Dec 29, 2007 at 10:34:55 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  The Latin High Mass and its music (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        PBCliberal, marykk

        is a wonderful experience.  Have you ever been to one?  Putting aside the religious aspect of it, you just may enjoy the music and theatricality of the mass.  And you certainly would be welcome.

        I sang in the Gregorian Choir in grammar school and high school.  Though my beliefs may be different than yours, we all want to experience deep peace and a connection to forces beyond ourselves.  The Latin Mass does that for many people -though perhaps because of its connection as well to childhood and family as well.

        What's the plan? The plan is I go in and start hitting people in the face hard. (Angel, from the Series)

        by xanthe on Sat Dec 29, 2007 at 02:31:45 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  My problem with Latin: (0+ / 0-)

          Jesus and the Christians of the first few centuries spoke Aramaic, Greek and Hebrew.  

          Roman Latin, Trinitarianism, 'canon law', sacramentalism, etc. all came much later, along with the papacy.  The Latin mass is a dream world.  Priests able to turn bits of vegetable food into the Body of Christ?  Jesus laughed at us that we could not change a hair on our heads and fretted over what garments to wear over our human skins.

          When life gives you wingnuts, make wingnut butter!

          by antirove on Sat Dec 29, 2007 at 10:55:03 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Yes, well your comment does not (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            marykk

            change the fact that the Latin Mass is beautiful to many people.  I did not say it was the language of Christ.  But again - a patronizing comment - but thank you for informing me - lest I did not know this.  

            What's the plan? The plan is I go in and start hitting people in the face hard. (Angel, from the Series)

            by xanthe on Sat Dec 29, 2007 at 11:40:13 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

  •  relevant quote (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    melo, PBCliberal, Quotefiend

    "From a religious point of view we did the right thing."

    -- Daniel Corogeanu, abbot of the Holy Trinity monastery,
    Tanacu, Romania, after an apparently possessed 23-year old
    nun died after being crucified during an exorcism
    (Die Zeit, 23.06.05, p. 2).

    The biggest threat to America is not communism, it's moving America toward a fascist theocracy... -- Frank Zappa

    by NCrefugee on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 10:19:54 PM PST

    •  I believe this priest is an romanian Orthodox (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Ahianne, PBCliberal, marykk

      priest - and not under the purview of the roman Catholic Pope.

      this is a heinous story - awful.  It took place in a really poor, isolated place -

      Poor girl.

      What's the plan? The plan is I go in and start hitting people in the face hard. (Angel, from the Series)

      by xanthe on Sat Dec 29, 2007 at 03:13:41 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  this is great. The Rat hath learned from Bush (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    melo, PBCliberal, Quotefiend, chigh

    just how powerful fear is as a motivator. He probably got jealous of George, and decided to get into the fun.

    In the United States, doing good has come to be, like patriotism, a favorite device of persons with something to sell. - Mencken

    by agnostic on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 10:32:13 PM PST

    •  Nothing at all about fear (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      aitchdee, marykk

      There is nothing --- nothing in the article you cited that has even a whiff of fear about it.  Your diatribe projects a need to screech at something you don't really understand so you try to force it into categories where it doesn't fit.

      If you DID understand what the article was saying, you would realize that several million Catholics in the United States can still recite from memory the Prayer to St. Michael that concluded every Mass; it was a prayer for protection against evil, against temptation, a prayer for strength to resist the bad things that might come our way.  Prayers create metaphors to make abstractions more understandable, so the concept of evil was attached to the image of "Devil."

      as I recall the Prayer to St Michael, it went like this:

      St Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle.  Be our defense against the wickedness and snares of the devil.  May God rebuke him, we humbly pray, and do thou, oh prince of the heavenly hosts, cast into hell Satan and the other evil spirits who roam about the world seeking the ruin of souls.  Amen.

      The only relationship I see between Bush & Ratzinger in this context is that Bush labeled the people of North Korea, Syria, and Iran as evil, and killed half-a-million Iraqis to stamp out evil.

      Ratzinger labeled Satan/the devil as evil and seeks to teach people to pray to overcome the forces that impel people to do evil things.

      "Accurate scholarship will unearth the whole offense....[will] learn ...what huge imago made a psychopathic god." -W H Auden

      by Orpheus on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 11:16:53 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  sorry, orpheus, history is agin ya. badly. (0+ / 0-)

        The Rat is not the first to start with fearmongering about satan's power.

        In 1095, Urban II made a public call to arms, claiming that Satan had taken over Jerusalem. It resulted in what we now call the First Crusade. For the next two centuries, repeated ventures into the middle east resulted in untold bloodshed, slavery, rape, theft, mass murder. Probably the worst was the Children's Crusade of 1212, in which tens of thousands of kids, many not even in their teens, were convinced that they had to do battle with satan and throw the infidels out of Jerusalem. All died, or were taken as slaves, or sexual playthings along the way. Not one made it to Jerusalem.

        Later crusades headed to the pagan north, through what is now Poland and the Baltics, where they slaughtered hundreds of thousands in the name of your god.

        Give me a break about how honor and religion play such a great role in society. Yours is a religion of war, death, fear, control, and anti-science.

        The same mechanism that Urban and his successors followed is identical to what the Rat is doing today. He sets out a straw man, increases fear, gives the sheeple a goal, then sends them out to do battle with that construct, all for one purpose, increasing the power to the vatican.

        As for your St. Michael, it is of no surprise that his attributes, according to the vatican are him treading on Satan or a serpent, carrying a banner, scales, and a sword. Nor is it a surprise that police and military think of him as their patron, because he is the perfect example of the church's true purpose. War. Profit. Creating an opponent, then using arms to attack that opponent.

        What the Rat is doing (and remember this was his nickname within the Vatican, when he was controlling the defense stance in all child sex litigation for the Holy See - HE personally decided where and how to transfer child abusing priests to avoid discovery, court trials, and messy publicity) is simply picking up where Urban started off.

        In the United States, doing good has come to be, like patriotism, a favorite device of persons with something to sell. - Mencken

        by agnostic on Sat Dec 29, 2007 at 06:50:40 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  and do not forget the anti-science bit (0+ / 0-)

          "The church says the earth is flat, but I know that it is round, for I have seen the shadow on the moon, and I have more faith in a shadow than in the church."
          Ferdinand Magellan

          In the United States, doing good has come to be, like patriotism, a favorite device of persons with something to sell. - Mencken

          by agnostic on Sat Dec 29, 2007 at 07:22:55 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  that was just yesterday, right? (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            marykk

            in your last two comments you confound actions that were set in motion by a complex series of motives and events, involving political leaders sometimes acting contrary to the declarations of the church (in the case of some of the crusades), with, apparently, GWB who does seem to be about "war/profit/create an opponent, then use arms to attack that opponent."  

            Perhaps if you could cite an example in the last ten years where the institution Church has motivated "war/profit/create an opponent, then...." we would have the basis for a rational discussion.

            Today, it appears that the  US government and Israel are  following that pattern with respect to Iran, while   the Vatican is attempting to disrupt and avoid "war/profit/create an opponent."

            "Accurate scholarship will unearth the whole offense....[will] learn ...what huge imago made a psychopathic god." -W H Auden

            by Orpheus on Sat Dec 29, 2007 at 07:58:22 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

  •  Best not to stiff your exorcist... (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    PBCliberal, Quotefiend, phonegery, Orpheus

    ...you might get repossessed.

    "If I don't see you no more in this world, I'll see you in the next world...and don't be late!" (Jimi Hendrix)

    by Faheyman on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 10:46:28 PM PST

  •  Spirituality vs. Religion (3+ / 0-)

    This guy is a real throwback. Recently he weighed in on global warming saying it was basically nonsense--as if he knew anything about the subject.

    The office he headed before he became Pope was formerly the Office of the Inquisition.

    Now he's pulling up scenes from old horror movies. May Linda Blair puke upon him with her head turned around.

    If people must look for spiritual significance in their lives, let it be done in a realm of open spirituality--the sincere quest of the human heart for meaning and connection to a greater, perhaps unseen, reality.

    The opposite is religion, which is when guys put on robes and funny hats, start making rules and collecting money.

    •  see "Nothing at all about fear" (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      xanthe

      I'm far from an apologist for Ratzinger, but this diarist and most of the commentators on it have no understanding of the context of this article.  

      Somebody whose information about Catholic theology concerning the devil is based on a horror movie is scarcely credible in attacking the pope's statements about global warming.

      "Accurate scholarship will unearth the whole offense....[will] learn ...what huge imago made a psychopathic god." -W H Auden

      by Orpheus on Sat Dec 29, 2007 at 12:17:38 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Patronizing remarks: (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Ahianne, marykk

      If people must look for spiritual significance in their lives, let it be done in a realm of open spirituality--the sincere quest of the human heart for meaning and connection to a greater, perhaps unseen, reality.

      The opposite is religion, which is when guys put on robes and funny hats, start making rules and collecting money.

      Some of us do find spirituality in traditional churches.  and do not care how others find it, traditional or otherwise.  

      Still we are bombarded with this truly spiritual people do not need churches stuff - people will come together - we are primates.  We are hardwired to find communities.  

      and unfortunately, it costs money to run churches: heat them, educate children, send money to sister churches that need help, house and feed the priests, electricity, outreach programs for the homeless, food pantries and on and on.

      As to the funny hats and robes - that is fine that you think that.  But I am linked to the tradition of the church thru my family - generations down the line.  My grandmother took me to mass when I was a child - my mother took me to novenas during WWII to pray for her brothers.  When I smell incense I remember my mother's hand as we walked out of the church.  The robes remind me of my Aunt Geri, now gone, who was my godmother during confimation - a long ceremony with bishops and robes.  But I remember mostly my lovely aunt.

      Religion is as much cultural and familial as it is spiritual -

       

      What's the plan? The plan is I go in and start hitting people in the face hard. (Angel, from the Series)

      by xanthe on Sat Dec 29, 2007 at 04:02:51 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  pardon me (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    melo, xanthe, Quotefiend, marykk

    I just want to make one really small, mostly mousy mention of something you said that bothered me slightly:

    And I could give a shit about the occult.

    As far as I'm concerned, followers of the occult and any "church," "temple," or "mosque" for that matter are all relics of an ignorant, medieval mindset

    It's really no big deal, but you know, I keep seeing stuff like this (it's the third or fourth time in as many days) and it's starting to get to me a little.

    I'm a budding occultist, and I'm no dummy. In terms of the supernatural, you and I may not have precisely the same point of view, but I'm still a good person and a good Democrat. Am I not worthy of the benefit of the doubt, at least? Clobber me with charges of ignorance after you've caught obstructing progress(ives), okay? :)

    God bless our tinfoil hearts.

    by aitchdee on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 11:17:20 PM PST

    •  Religion (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Quotefiend

      There's only few groups of people who are even more abhorred in the US than atheists, and these are Occultists and Satanists.
      And even in liberal and progressive circles like this site, there is an unfathomable hostility towards that which is unknown in mainstream America.
      Even people who are ready to call themselves atheists still go about and reiterate that same old christian brainwashy bullshit, instead of forming their own opinions, as they did when they questioned and threw out their own old beliefs in which they were raised.

      FUCK YEAH DETHKLOK!!!!!!!!!!! The Dethalbum is BRUTAL! It's so brutal it makes people vomit their own shit and piss on a dog!!!!!!!! - Legacy, MySpace

      by cwkraus4clark on Sat Dec 29, 2007 at 12:39:10 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  oh boy (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        melo, xanthe, Quotefiend

        It would appear I have been hoisted by my own petard.

        You know, I've never come right out and called myself an occultist before--not here, anyway--and perhaps I should have qualified that statement. I study the tarot and various forms of mysticism. Satanism, quite frankly, is the furthest thing from what I do. Of course, that's neither here nor there, just the fact of the matter. I do wish you all the best.

        cheers,

        God bless our tinfoil hearts.

        by aitchdee on Sat Dec 29, 2007 at 01:17:03 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Vatican denies report (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    PBCliberal, xanthe, marykk

    Can you please edit your diary with the following information:

    The Vatican has denied a report that Pope Benedict XVI plans a new emphasis on exorcisms.

    and

    But Father Federico Lombardi, the director of the Vatican press office, flatly denied the Petrus report. The papal spokesman said: "Pope Benedict XVI has no intention of ordering local bishops to bring in garrisons of exorcists to fight demonic possession."

    from Catholic World News

    FUCK YEAH DETHKLOK!!!!!!!!!!! The Dethalbum is BRUTAL! It's so brutal it makes people vomit their own shit and piss on a dog!!!!!!!! - Legacy, MySpace

    by cwkraus4clark on Sat Dec 29, 2007 at 12:43:34 AM PST

  •  Ron Paul (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    xanthe

    This diary is one of the most disheartening things I've read on DailyKos.

    Most comments--as well as the diary itself-- have no idea what they're talking about, just gotta take a swing at the pope pinata.

    Is that what the Dem party is all about these days?  

    Sayonara.

    "Accurate scholarship will unearth the whole offense....[will] learn ...what huge imago made a psychopathic god." -W H Auden

    by Orpheus on Sat Dec 29, 2007 at 12:43:47 AM PST

  •  I offer some additional information (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    marykk, Orpheus

    Lux et veritas, if you will....

    'Modern' courses in exorcism were begun at Regina University in Rome in 2005.

    Greater prominence to the practice is probably as much driven by actual spontaneous requests from people, which have increased in recent years, as opposed to some Devil-hunt expedition by the church.

    The devil is real and can possess people, but it does not happen as often as many people think, said two Italian exorcists.

    When a person who thinks he or she is possessed approaches a priest looking for help, they said, the priest must know enough about possession to know whether a simple prayer is called for or whether he needs to refer the person to a psychologist or to the diocesan exorcist.

    To prepare priests and future priests to help people in those situations, Rome's Regina Apostolorum university -- run by the Legionaries of Christ -- inaugurated a course on Satanism and exorcism Feb. 17.

    ---------------

    The priest, a member of the Servants of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, said "several hundred" people approach his team each year thinking they are possessed.

    After counseling, he said, "I do maybe 20 exorcisms each year."

    Father Scarafoni said that, generally, "85 percent to 90 percent of these people are not possessed or even being attacked by the devil. They need someone to listen. They need a prayer. They need a long walk and a glass of water."

    The Regina Apostolorum course, he said, "is designed to give priests the information they need for initial discernment and referral."

    I'm no fan of B-16, and troubled by several things in the church, but exorcism activity is not a concern - let's not be alarmist.

    Go to your window [and http://youtube.com/watch?v=90ELleCQvew]

    by coffeeinamrica on Sat Dec 29, 2007 at 05:26:10 AM PST

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