Daily Kos

THE Progressive Crises: Global Warming and Peak Oil

Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 09:50:08 PM PDT

Every Progressive should recognize and incorporate, deep in their soul, the plain fact:  Peak and Global Warming are the most serious threats to Progressive ideals, concepts, policies, and aspirations through the 21st century ... AND today.

These are not just let’s wait until tomorrow issues, that should be put in the back of the line to deal with after other issues, we must address them with urgency today if we hope for a progressive world tomorrow. Energize America bumpersticker

Without better energy policies starting now, the future could be bleak economically for decades to come with the impending strike of Peak Oil.  Amid recessions and depressions, what happens to mental health programs?  What happens to music in the classrooms? Training programs for economically disadvantaged among us? Will there be funding for these and other progressive causes? I doubt it.  Don’t you?

With ever-increasing environmental stresses, global refugee and food crises, multiple-Katrina-like challenges and choices over whether to protect or abandon America’s coastal infrastructure, will Head Start funding be secure?  Will Americans focus on expanding GLBT rights? Will there these and other progressive concerns be the top of the agenda? I doubt it. Don’t you?

Jerome a Paris has written eloquently about his son's illness and discussed how this illness drives his passionate concern about energy and global warming issues.  He has written how desiring a world where his son – and others similarly challenged – can have a fruitful life drove him to a fundamental realism about the criticality of turning the world toward a better path in the face of Peak Oil.  He brought me – and many others – along with him.  

NNadir, one of the strongest proponents of nuclear power in this community, has expressed how having childrendrives his passionate advocacy of what he views as a key tool for carving a survivable path to a better future.  

So I'm writing all about nuclear power for a wholly selfish reason, to protect my own.    More nuclear reactors in my view will give everybody's children, including my own, their best shot.

They are not alone ... so many others are driven to change by their desire to foster a better (or less worse?) life for their children ... and, by extension, others’ children.

I share their passion.  As for me, well, staring one’s children in the eyes and considering the world that we are creating should be enough to motivate any of us toward change. And, they motivate me to fight for a better world for me, for you, for my children, for yours, for all of us ... for US and the world. daughter  

The more I learn about the economic implications of society not taking mitigation action in the face of impending peak oil, the more terrified I become. A good place to start, to become concerned (if not scared), is the Hirsch report on Peak Oil mitigation:

The peaking of world oil production presents the U.S. and the world with an unprecedented risk management problem. As peaking is approached, liquid fuel prices and price volatility will increase dramatically, and, without timely mitigation, the economic, social, and political costs will be unprecedented. Viable mitigation options exist on both the supply and demand sides, but to have substantial impact, they must be initiated more than a decade in advance of peaking.

A small problem ... many of the best analyses of Peak Oil place this well within the next decade (if it has not already occurred, as recently stated by oil financial analyst Matt Simmons).  And, do we see any serious action by the Bush-Cheney Administration toward mitigation, toward ending America’s "oil addiction"?

This is not simply a question of paying a few dollars more for fuel, but decades of economic tensions and problems globally.  And, in the face of recessions and depressions, with constrained oil resources, what might happen to the potential for conflict?

This passionate concern driving Jerome, myself, others engaged with Energize America 2020 a year ago led to many 3 am internet interactions as we sought to develop a set of policies to help turn us (both US and, as well, the world) toward an energy future to mitigate Peak Oil’s most serious challenges.

And, along with the (potentially) imminent economic challenges (if not catastrophes) associated with Peak Oil, we all recognized the every mounting reality of Global Warming and how this could even overshadow Peak Oil as a challenge.  Considering the potential implications for feeding an ever-growing population amid increasingly disrupted weather conditions does not make me sleep easily at night. When a key scientist from the Stern Review on the Economics of Climate Change tells me that, if things go well, we might lose "only" 50 percent of the world’s species by 2050, I listen ... and I tremble.

I think of my – and your – children. We – collectively – have created and are creating a world that will be radically different for our children than what we enjoyed.  50% of species extinct by 2050???   If things go well, that is ...fight global warming

And, these crises interconnect.  Some of the paths toward Peak Oil mitigation, to solving potential oil challenges, could greatly exacerbate Global Warming challenges.  Fossil fuel from tar sands, heavy oil, shale oil will put far more carbon into the atmosphere to get that gallon of fuel into a Hummer than would be the case for Texas sweet crude.  

www.cafepress.com/peakoilaware But, the opportunity exist, the opportunities exist to enable us (US and all of us) to turn aside from our headlong rush into economic disaster of Peak Oil and massive destruction of Global Warming.  

Now, dealing competently with these challenges is neither an easy task nor a quickly resolved one.  And, navigating a path through the Peak Oil minefield while charting (and sailing) a course through the turbulent seas of Global Warming is critical for ensuring a decent future for us all (US and the world).

Al Gore speaks of the calling of a generation.  That this is beyond politics and partisanship, that this is the moral and ethical challenge for this generation.  And that we must rise to the challenge as did The Greatest Generation in World War II.

For those focused on "national security", they must realize the ‘security’ implications of an economically disrupted world experiencing weather/climate conditions increasing refugee movements and driving natural disasters.  For those most concerned with traditional economic measures, they must realize that Peak Oil threatens decades of negative GDP growth and that Global Warming is already hurting the economy. (Tried to get insurance for a beach home recently?)  

While these are challenges for us (US) all, progressives should realize the particular criticality of dealing effectively with Peak Oil and Global Warming. Without resolving (mitigating) these challenges, Progressive dreams for a better tomorrow risk becoming dim memories rather than reality of daily life.

Richard Smalley conceived of the Terrawatt Challenge (pdf).  

Energy is not just "any old issue." Most people, in fact, understand its importance very well. When I have given talks on this subject before, I have often asked people in the audience to name the most critical problems we will have to confront as we go through this century. In every case, after a bit of discussion, the audiences have agreed that energy is the single most important issue we face.

Why is energy always preeminent?

When we look at a prioritized list of the top 10 problems, with energy at the top, ... energy is the key to solving all of the rest of the problems

And, if you care about the potential for achieving a better future, a future in line with Progressive values, finding a path toward a prosperous and sustainable energy future must be part of your agenda ... or else you risk achieving none of your other priorities.

Our concerns, collectively, drive us in our desire to Energize America, to work to turn America and the world from our blind, headlong path over the dual cliffs of Peak Oil and Global Warming.

And, our concepts now have taken a step toward becoming reality, of becoming policy.  Join us in our efforts to Re-Energize ... Energize America.  Energy Smart

NOTES

• See, as well, Jerome a Paris' excellent discussion Energize America coming to Congress. You can help.
• Consider joining the new, improved Daily Kos Environmentalists community / listserve.
Answer the Call to turn us (US and the world) away from a catastrophic path on Global Warming.
• And ... Imagine Life Differently ... Imagine it Better ... And Seek to create that better life

ENERGIZE AMERICA:  The Neighborhood Power Act:  First draft of the first Act for the 2007 Energize America effort.

Tags: Energize America, Global Warming, Peak Oil, Rescued (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 42 comments

  •  Tips / Mojo -- 13 February 2007 (21+ / 0-)

    A journey starts with a single step ... take that step to work for a prosperous and sustainable energy future.

    •  Great diary. (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      cookiebear, Winnie, A Siegel

      I've thought quite a bit about how these two crisis might interact.  Your fear is that the solution to Peak Oil might worsen Global Warming.  My hope is that it will be the other way around: the solutions to Global Warming might just save us from Peak Oil.

      I think the idea that global warming is real has reached critical mass, and many people are doing more and more things to prevent it.  For example, three years ago a Prius was an oddity.  Now, they're everywhere, at least here in L.A.  When Walmart and the US Congress want in on the act, I think it's a sign the worm has turned.

      Let's keep our fingers crossed.

      •  Agree ... and disagree ... (4+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        cookiebear, Winnie, andreuccio, DWG

        I agree that there is a path toward dealing with/mitigating both of these. Principally, a holistic approach to energy:

        • Energy efficiency, renewable energy & non-GHG energy (plus pollution controls), conservation/usage changes
        • Individual, family, community, business, government (at all levels) action
        • Immediate implementation of existing options and serious research to find even better paths for tomorrow

        While I see signs for hope ... there are as many for serious concern.

      •  Don't mean to be a party-pooper, but... (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        cookiebear, letsgetreal

        in response to this:

        For example, three years ago a Prius was an oddity.  Now, they're everywhere, at least here in L.A.  When Walmart and the US Congress want in on the act, I think it's a sign the worm has turned.

        I guess I just feel obliged to add, as I did here, that:

        1.  Improved efficiency, in the context of a system dependent upon growth, is just an excuse to create more activity.  Please see John Bellamy Foster's piece on Jevons' Paradox for an understanding of why this is so.

        What this means for me is that the patrons of the principle of hope (of which I count myself as one) must raise the ante again.  Kovel's path is one way of doing this.

        "The freeway's concrete way won't show/ you where to run or how to go" -- Jorma Kaukonen

        by Cassiodorus on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 10:36:45 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Re Jevons Paradox ... (4+ / 0-)

          I am conflicted.

          There is much truth in it.

          Yet, if -- magically -- I have a vehicle that gets 10x the mileage per gallon, my mileage will not go up that way.  First, because I won't want to spend all that time in the car. Second, because there are accumulated costs (insurance, maintenance, etc) that make gasoline only a small part of the costs.  And, having a better insulated home might make me keep it a few degrees warmer, but I won't turn the temperature to 125 degrees (f).

          But, I agree to a tremendous extent with: "Improved efficiency, in the context of a system dependent upon growth, is just an excuse to create more activity."  Thus, what we require, is a fundamental redefinition of what economic properity really means.

          •  Indeed! (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            cookiebear, A Siegel

            I have a vehicle that gets 10x the mileage per gallon, my mileage will not go up that way.

            My guess is that your gas savings will probably allow some other prospective driver to burn the gasoline you aren't burning.

            "The freeway's concrete way won't show/ you where to run or how to go" -- Jorma Kaukonen

            by Cassiodorus on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 11:06:57 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  lowering the price has two effects (4+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Ed in Montana, Winnie, A Siegel, RosyFinch

              You are correct that if A Siegel uses less gasoline, this will slightly lower the demand for gasoline, and hence the price.  And, sadly, yes, this may mean that someone else can now afford it.

              However, a lower price of gasoline (and thus oil) means that companies will now find it a little less profitable to look for high-cost oil.  Perhaps some projects will be moved from low-profitable to no-profitable.

              On a larger scale, if large numbers of Americans cut their gasoline usage significantly, the price of oil would drop significantly.  And that would make oil companies a lot less interested in developing the tar sands, offshore drilling, etc.

              Eventually, of course, the price will rise enough for them to do those things.  But by that time, the technology of solar panels will be a bit further along, acceptance of wind power will be a bit greater, and future generations of the Prius will be out.

              Fundamentally, conservation buys us time.  And maybe that extra time will be enough for the horse to learn to sing.

              •  The market won't save us (2+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                Winnie, RosyFinch

                However, a lower price of gasoline (and thus oil) means that companies will now find it a little less profitable to look for high-cost oil.

                 My point is that roaring gasoline demand elsewhere will push prices upward regardless of how many conscientious individuals conserve here.  Under neoliberal capitalism, the world is being conditioned to want the American Way of Life.

                The conservation efforts of conscientious individuals make sense on the basis of brute economic self-interest.  As the world's oil reserves are continually drained, the price of oil will go up and up, and so it will be expedient for the well-to-do to conserve.  But it won't really do anything for the environment.

                "The freeway's concrete way won't show/ you where to run or how to go" -- Jorma Kaukonen

                by Cassiodorus on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 08:45:17 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  It isn't the economics of oil & gasoline (1+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  A Siegel

                  Only the market CAN save us.  By producing viable alternatives to oil.  

                  This truly can only happen when the price of oil puts pressure on the masses to come up with a reasonable alternative.

                  By the way, your tagline is 2/3'rd right.  Recycling is a scam as well as peak oil.  I support reduce & reuse in my own life.  Recycling?  Only the good stuff (Aluminum, copper, etc.)  I'm not for wasting more energy and polluting the environment more by recycling freakin' plastic milk juggs and newspapers.

                  •  Do you have the numbers re plastics? (0+ / 0-)

                    I thought that plastic is a clear positive in terms of recycling energy.

                    As for newspaper, there are some mixed numbers -- but, when you take the reduced waste stream and the reduced forestry, it comes out as a net positive in terms of environmental impact.

                    •  Plastics are terrible (1+ / 0-)

                      Recommended by:
                      A Siegel

                      Recycling plastics can only reclaim a portion...the rest is still dumped.  

                      Sadly, the recycling industry is given too much credence.  They have an agenda... it is a multi-billion dollar industry.  They seem to do their own "research" with an outcome that is predictable.

                      The energy used in the recycling process produces waste as well.  From the time to sort the items, to the vehicles (big trucks, generally) that burn tons of fuel, to the recycling process itself... for what?  

                  •  Where do I start? (1+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    A Siegel

                    Only the market CAN save us.  By producing viable alternatives to oil.

                    1. Markets don't produce anything.  Markets are for EXCHANGE.  Producers produce; exchangers exchange.  OK?
                    1. "Viable alternatives to oil" will merely supplement the capitalist system's drive to burn every last drop of this planet's economically-feasible crude oil.  This is one of the canards listed at the top of this diary.

                    This truly can only happen when the price of oil puts pressure on the masses to come up with a reasonable alternative.

                    Or, the high price of oil allows its owners to concentrate money and power in their hands, thus making it even more difficult to develop alternatives.  Please read chapter 6 of Donella Meadows et al.'s Beyond The Limits, which concludes:

                    Market signals such as oil price are too noisy, too delayed, too amplified by speculation, and too manipulated by private and public interest groups to give the world clear signals about oncoming physical limits.  The market is blind to the long term and pays no attention to ultimate sources and sinks, until they are nearly exhausted, when it is too late to act.  Economic signals and technological responses can evoke powerful responses, as the oil price example illustrates, but they simply are not connected to the earth system in the right place to give useful information about limits.  (184)

                    And this from market believers!

                    "The freeway's concrete way won't show/ you where to run or how to go" -- Jorma Kaukonen

                    by Cassiodorus on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 05:22:55 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  The Market is the ENTIRE FREE MARKET. (0+ / 0-)

                      The market I am talking about is not simply the stock market.

                      The fact is, oil will not "run out" one day just like that.  The cost will go up, quantities will be more limited and people will move to something else that is supplied to the markets.

                      It is going to happen without government interference.  It is simple as that.

                      Adam Smith: Wealth of Nations.  Adam Smith #30 of the most influential figures in history.  He isn't there for no reason at all.

              •  on my list of places to visit (0+ / 0-)

                One is a peaceful Vale of Kashmir (I have hopes this may be true again in my lifetime).

                The other is the city of Samarkand, because there is a statue of nasrudden and the donkey learning to read the Koran!

                "You don't have to burn books to destroy a culture. Just get people to stop reading them." [Ray Bradbury]

                by RosyFinch on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 12:08:03 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Your argument (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                A Siegel

                leaves out the essence of what Fosters article demonstrates: capitalism is incapable of achieving an ecologically sound economy. By its very nature it is driven to expand, whether humans "need" its output or not.

            •  It will also mean that (0+ / 0-)

              he can move to a fartherflung exurb, increasing his dependence on the automobile.

          •  Jevons Paradox and Home Heating (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            A Siegel

            "having a better insulated home might make me keep it a few degrees warmer, but I won't turn the temperature to 125 degrees (f)."

            What we found years ago when we did solar barnraisings on houses in the Boston area is that there were actually greater savings than estimated as time went on.  We theorized that the people who were interested enough to do solar were also motivated to do more insulation and weatherization and monitor energy use.

            Solar is civil defense. Video of my small scale solar experiments at http://solarray.blogspot.com/2006/03/solar-video.html

            by gmoke on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 08:43:41 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  I don't have kids (4+ / 0-)

    I imagine it to be prudent to create a sustainable future for them before bringing them into the world... 'course by the time that happens I will prob. be too old...

    "The freeway's concrete way won't show/ you where to run or how to go" -- Jorma Kaukonen

    by Cassiodorus on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 09:55:09 PM PDT

  •  I am going to send my Senator and (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    A Siegel, RosyFinch

    Congresswoman the EA2020 final draft.  I am also going to send it to my state senator and state congressman.

    Would this be an appropriate cover letter to attach to the pdf?:

    Dear Senator
    Please find attached a document entitled Energize America that provides a detailed plan for securing a prosperous and sustainable energy future for our country.
    Energize America provides a comprehensive and compelling 20-point plan developed by informed citizen activists to wean the U.S. from its fossil fuel addiction and provide the U.S. with Energy Security by 2020, and Energy Freedom by 2040.

    Kindly please review this document at your earliest convenience.  Please feel free to contact me or the authors with any questions or comments.  

  •  Ironic (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Winnie, A Siegel

    I am watching Christopher Horner on the Daily Show hawking with cartoon book attacking climate science.  Thanks for a nice dose of sanity after I spent ten minutes shouting at the television.

    Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. - Martin Luther King, Jr.

    by DWG on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 08:24:45 PM PDT

  •  Thanks for the plug for my writings. (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    A Siegel, RosyFinch

    I appreciate it.

    I am less concerned about peak oil than I am about global climate change.

    From my perspective, the sooner we abandon the idea that oil is necessary, the better chance we will have of moving beyond it.

    I would go further and insist on the banning of all fossil fuels, including natural gas.

    From my perspective, one of the things that must be fought is the notion of replacing oil with coal, to wit, Fischer-Tropsch FT chemistry.   Regrettably this unfortunate approach is receiving renewed interest around the world.  

    There are replacements - known replacements for just about every constituent in oil.   For instance diesel fuel can be replaced by dimethyl ether which is superior to diesel fuel (and gasoline and natural gas and most refrigerants and most propellants).   Thus the idea that we must make FT diesel - as suggested in this month's Scientific American - basically makes me nauseous.

    Discussions of Peak Oil always sort of bug me, because they seem to place oil on the level with air - suggesting that one almost can't live without it.   This inspires people to do foolish and panicky things, like remark how coal can be used to make oil.   Coal cannot be used to make oil, not if we want to survive.

    I can't wait for oil to start disappearing, because it will force the investment for better alternatives, so long as we prevent - through regulatory fiat if necessary - the worse alternatives.   To my mind we use oil because we are lazy and cheap.

    •  Jeebus! a medium-size Armageddon is coming (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      A Siegel

      and you can't wait for it to start?

      If we lived under a real fascist dictator ( no, de jure, not just semi-de-facto) and that dictator was willing to make painful choices and expensive investments, and made all the right ones, we'd see some serious mitigation of the problem. As is, this is a partisan democracy, and I doubt we'll get agreement on anything before the mobs march on the White House - when everything that is manufactured or transported has approximately doubled in cost relative to wages. And ditto everywhere else in the developed world.

      The social and political structure of our world is going to be changed utterly, because there is no way for this world, with these political constraints, to manage the transition away from oil.

      I wish Al Gore could be elected World Dictator.

      •  Do you think waiting will change anything? (1+ / 0-)

        You'd rather that the oil run out in your children's generation maybe, that it be their problem and not yours?

        I favor the banning of fossil fuels.   I know that it will be difficult and expensive, but I also know it is technically feasible.  

        In Shakespeare's Macbeth on hearing of the death of Lady Macbeth remarks "She would have died hereafter."

        Oil would have run out hereafter.  

        We can take responsibility for the immediate problem, or we can whine in fear about it.   We have options, albeit limited, but we need to address them, not with hysteria, but with rational action.

    •  I am also (0+ / 0-)

      more worried, in an intellectual (and, perhaps, emotional) sense, about Global Warming.

      Peak Oil -- I could see, if I tried, a way toward a lifeboat strategy for communities.

      Global Warming -- as much as people like speaking about wheat in Greenland, at the end of the day, there will not be viable lifeboat strategies. No human will be untouched (or, actually, is untouched).

      Re the "plug". I have posted in your diaries: you write wonderfully, you educate me, you force me to think ... and, while I am not convinced, your arguments/points/concepts are ones that merit serious attention.  I only give "plugs" that are merited.  People who are interested in energy issues should be reading you, even if -- like Plutonium Page -- they viscerally reject your beliefs/arguments.

  •  Peak Oil Myth (0+ / 0-)

    The fact is, this oil thing is just one big BS show.

    Oil can, and will, be around for a long time to come.  Yes, the price will go up.  But technology is advancing to get oil from other areas where we thought we couldn't get it.

    With prices as they are now, it makes it economically viable to retrieve these sources.

    Now, if this is one big arguement against global warming: that's another issue.  Carbon emissions is that issue.

    Most of the time, people who are very anti-oil will use false arguements such as "peak oil" to scare people into reforming their habits.  They may have an agenda driven goal such as corn farmers for ethanol, environmentalists that want to curb carbon emissions, or whatever company/people can gain by taking away from others.

    Oh yes, the street is two ways as oil companies do very shady things.  They get no free pass, ever.  

    All you can do is take care of your own.

    Hybrids are a joke, folks.  Yes, you see them on the roads more often...especially in "trendy" California.  But if you did the research, you'd know that these cars are a scam.  

    They do have a mod (very expensive) to convert extra batteries to your hybrid to make it mostly run on electricty (it plugs in when not in use...electricity to your battery will come from the house instead of the engine running).  That mod is very, very expensive and you have to investigate the source of your power from the grid.  Coal plants = bad, nuclear = OK, solar/wind = nice.

    Peak oil...laughable.  It is as much of a scam as the recycling industry pulls on the public.

    Adam Smith would shake his head in this instance and say "Do not worry." and I'd think he would be right.  

    Are you willing to forgive all the crap in your homes to stop this oil thing?  I doubt it.  Can you help make technology to run off other viable fuel sources (not corn-produced ethanol...another scam)? Well you'll make a billion bucks if you come up with that technology: PEOPLE WILL USE IT.

    I drive a Metro.  Yes, it is small and ugly...it is loud, rattles, and has a very uncomfortable ride.  I use mineral oils (100% Synthetic) in my oil changes.  Does that mean anything? Nah.  It is a few quarts of oil every once in awhile...the heavy, cheap oil we have lots of... well, I still do what is right for my car.  Synthetic oil is better!

    One day I will be chillin' in my monolithic dome home, radiant heating system working fine... a 8KW/Hr solar array fired up and going well.  I hope I can netmeter to avoid multiple-lead battery use, though.  Wind power is neat, but I haven't checked into that...maybe a wind & solar setup would be better yet.  I'll have my garden of fresh vegetables... and I'll be thinking "Wow! Things are going pretty well for me."  

    Health insurance?  Well, that's going to be a problem....  

    •  We are past peak oil (4+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Inky, SecondComing, A Siegel, kitkatkos

      If you like I can go oilfield by oilfield and well by well and show you the wells, strata, recovery system, and depletion.

      The major oil producing countries like Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran, Nigeria, Venezuala amd Mexico on whom we depend for the bulk of our supply are not convinced that our oil companies are the sort of people they want to continue doing business with, they may prefer to sell their oil to China.

      We are not going to develop an alternative to light sweet crudes cheap energy. One gallon of gasoline is the equivalent of the labor of 55 human beings.

      Big oil and the auto industry marketed the petrochemical industry as a system of bulk cargo distribution where profits are the economic driver.

      Solar and wind are likely to be initiated on a much smaller and much more elitist scale of distribution.
      Most poor people in America will not be putting solar cells on their roofs.

      Most cities will be underwater so urban distribution systems won't be in service.

      We are not going to recover oil that costs more than people can afford to pay to commute to work. Coal and gas will be used, but will:

      A. Never close the gap and
      B. Make the problem worse

      Solving the energy crisis with more efficient cars is like solving overpopulation by helping people lead longer healthier lives and ensuring they will be able to have children well on into the years when people used to retire.

      Commuting to work in drowned cities will also be a problem.

      Live Free or Die --- Investigate, Impeach, Incarcerate

      by rktect on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 04:08:39 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Peak Oil as myth ??? (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Inky, SecondComing

      That is simply wrong.

      You want to have a debate over when. Okay. That is open to discussion.

      You want to discuss what should be counted in terms of "petroleum" reserves. Okay. That is open to discussion.

      You want to discuss implications of peaking to the world economy and society. Okay. That is open to discussion.

      But Peak Oil -- that is simply reality.  Unless we are talking in geologic terms (e.g., millions of years), there is simply a physical limit as to how much petroleum there is in Earth. FACT!

      Now, I am not nearly as sanguine as you about the ability to get all these other sources on line -- neither is the oil industry, if you look at what they are investing in (mainly buying back shares, ala Exxon-Mobil).

      And, that the oil companies / etc need to be looking to very deep water oil, consider high-sulphur crude, heavy crude, shale, tar sands is a very telling point proving Peak Oil.  

    •  Yeah, I figured... (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Inky, A Siegel

      Oil can, and will, be around for a long time to come.  Yes, the price will go up.  But technology is advancing to get oil from other areas where we thought we couldn't get it.

      The world consumed 85 million barrels of oil every day as of 2005.  The demand for oil goes up 2% every year.  There is simply no way "technology" will satisfy this voracious demand indefinitely.  It will end when "technology" runs up against energy limits.  For each field there comes a point when it takes more than an oil-barrel's worth of energy to extract a barrel's worth of oil out of the field, thus the remaining oil in the field becomes uneconomical to pump.  Technology can only push that energy limit back so far.

      And the issue IS one of the price of oil.  Oil "will be around for a long time to come," but its price could become uneconomical enough in the future that the global economy would itself become uneconomical.  It takes a lot of cheap oil to run a business like Nike with headquarters in Chicago, factories in Vietnam, and distribution centers worldwide.  That cheap oil won't be around forever.  At a certain point of oil's price rise, then, global economic contraction will ensue as the world's Nikes become unfeasible.

      "The freeway's concrete way won't show/ you where to run or how to go" -- Jorma Kaukonen

      by Cassiodorus on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 05:38:19 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Shameless self promotion (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    A Siegel

    But what did the inventor of the Hula Hoop do?

    I get 250 miles per gallon, with an American made engine kit, and 9 out of 10 of these beauties are being exported from Michigan to Asia.

    I've done over 5,000 miles in the last 12 months.  It IS grassroots, show one person how it's done, then he can show his friends, pretty soon everybody is "hulahooping".

    Here are about twenty newspaper stories:

    http://www.motoredbikes.com/...

    The Wright brothers used a similar setup to get off the ground a hundred years ago, sometimes you have to go "backwards in time" to achieve George Jetson possibilities.  

    American ingenuity is all over motorized bikes.

  •  Rescue Rangers came to the rescue again (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    A Siegel

    Nice work.

    I only procreated once, but fear for my son's future. Not only due to a degraded environment, but also the inevitable wars for dwindling resources.

    When you grow up, knife a Romanoff wherever you find him - Samuel Langhorne Clemens

    by SecondComing on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:41:23 AM PDT

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