Daily Kos

If I Knew Then What I Should Have Known Then

Sat Feb 17, 2007 at 09:28:36 PM PDT

As Markos illustrates in his front page post, Senator Hillary Clinton is digging in her heels on her 2002 vote authorizing the Iraq War.  In disturbingly Bush-like fashion, she states "I take responsbility for my vote"...but fails to state just how she takes responsibility. Indeed, in the following breath, she retreats to her fallback position that Congress was misled into war.  Here is the exchange:  

On Saturday, Clinton was asked by a University of New Hampshire professor why she refused to apologize for voting to give Bush the authority for the March 2003 invasion.

"I take responsibility for my vote. It was a sincere vote based on the facts and assurances we had at the time. Obviously I would not vote that way again if we knew then what we know now," she said, her oft-repeated explanation.

Clinton's argument that Congress was misled may have merit.  Certainly, a Senator should not have to apologize when it was the President's fault, right?

Except it wasn't just the President's fault. And that is what Clinton fails to acknowledge.

For me, the question is one of judgment. Of foresight. Of the ability to accurately weigh both current facts and future possibilities.

Let us put aside the issue of a misled Congress.  Let us focus on the mistakes made, in the context of her belief of the administration's claims.

Had Clinton known then what she should have known then, she wouldn't in good conscience have voted for this war at all.

Because even with the President's ominous speeches, even with Colin Powell wagging vials in the air, and even with the lead weight of all the bad intelligence in 2002, the scales should not have tipped toward invasion.  

Twenty-three Senators and 133 Congressmen voted against the Iraq War Resolution.  They knew that this President could not be trusted with awesome war powers. They knew that a possible invasion would be catastrophic.   They knew that pre-emptive war in the Mideast would have disastrous consequences.

They knew.  

I hope you will indulge me a bit to quote, in full, Barack Obama's 2002 speech opposing the Iraq war.  

I stand before you as someone who is not opposed to war in all circumstances. The Civil War was one of the bloodiest in history, and yet it was only through the crucible of the sword, the sacrifice of multitudes, that we could begin to perfect this union and drive the scourge of slavery from our soil.

I don't oppose all wars. My grandfather signed up for a war the day after Pearl Harbor was bombed, fought in Patton's army. He fought in the name of a larger freedom, part of that arsenal of democracy that triumphed over evil.

I don't oppose all wars. After September 11, after witnessing the carnage and destruction, the dust and the tears, I supported this administration's pledge to hunt down and root out those who would slaughter innocents in the name of intolerance, and I would willingly take up arms myself to prevent such tragedy from happening again.

I don't oppose all wars. What I am opposed to is a dumb war. What I am opposed to is a rash war. What I am opposed to is the cynical attempt by Richard Perle and Paul Wolfowitz and other armchair, weekend warriors in this administration to shove their own ideological agendas down our throats, irrespective of the costs in lives lost and in hardships borne. What I am opposed to is the attempt by political hacks like Karl Rove to distract us from a rise in the uninsured, a rise in the poverty rate, a drop in the median income, to distract us from corporate scandals and a stock market that has just gone through the worst month since the Great Depression.

That's what I'm opposed to. A dumb war. A rash war. A war based not on reason but on passion, not on principle but on politics.

Now let me be clear: I suffer no illusions about Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal man. A ruthless man. A man who butchers his own people to secure his own power.... The world, and the Iraqi people, would be better off without him. But I also know that Saddam poses no imminent and direct threat to the United States, or to his neighbors...and that in concert with the international community he can be contained until, in the way of all petty dictators, he falls away into the dustbin of history.

I know that even a successful war against Iraq will require a U.S. occupation of undetermined length, at undetermined cost, with undetermined consequences. I know that an invasion of Iraq without a clear rationale and without strong international support will only fan the flames of the Middle East, and encourage the worst, rather than best, impulses of the Arab world, and strengthen the recruitment arm of al-Qaeda.

I am not opposed to all wars. I'm opposed to dumb wars. So for those of us who seek a more just and secure world for our children, let us send a clear message to the president.

You want a fight, President Bush? Let's finish the fight with Bin Laden and al-Qaeda, through effective, coordinated intelligence, and a shutting down of the financial networks that support terrorism, and a homeland security program that involves more than color-coded warnings.

You want a fight, President Bush? Let's fight to make sure that...we vigorously enforce a nonproliferation treaty, and that former enemies and current allies like Russia safeguard and ultimately eliminate their stores of nuclear material, and that nations like Pakistan and India never use the terrible weapons already in their possession, and that the arms merchants in our own country stop feeding the countless wars that rage across the globe.

You want a fight, President Bush? Let's fight to make sure our so-called allies in the Middle East, the Saudis and the Egyptians, stop oppressing their own people, and suppressing dissent, and tolerating corruption and inequality, and mismanaging their economies so that their youth grow up without education, without prospects, without hope, the ready recruits of terrorist cells.

You want a fight, President Bush? Let's fight to wean ourselves off Middle East oil through an energy policy that doesn't simply serve the interests of Exxon and Mobil.

Those are the battles that we need to fight. Those are the battles that we willingly join. The battles against ignorance and intolerance. Corruption and greed. Poverty and despair.

Compare Obama's speech to Clinton's 2002 floor speech.  She similarly lays out the same facts as Obama:

Now, I believe the facts that have brought us to this fateful vote are not in doubt. Saddam Hussein is a tyrant who has tortured and killed his own people, even his own family members, to maintain his iron grip on power. He used chemical weapons on Iraqi Kurds and on Iranians, killing over 20 thousand people. Unfortunately, during the 1980's, while he engaged in such horrific activity, he enjoyed the support of the American government, because he had oil and was seen as a counterweight to the Ayatollah Khomeini in Iran.

Yet Clinton drew a different conclusion from that same set of facts: that she should ratify the President the authority to invade Iraq (she states in her floor speech that the President already had the authority). Clinton's weighed the evidence (as it was presented to her), but she simply did not give enough weight to the clear and disastrous consequences of an invasion of Iraq.

That conclusion, that flawed analysis, is Clinton's mistake.  

Being misled wasn't necessarily a mistake.  But being misguided most certainly was.    

Now, Clinton stubbornly refuses to admit mistake out of fears that she'll be painted as a flip-flopper, as Kerry was in 2004.  

Yet what type of leader does Clinton believe America desires?  A Kerry or a Bush? A leader who can admit mistake, or a leader who refuses to do so?

The 2008 contenders who have admitted their vote was wrong realize that it was a first and necessary step toward rebuilding their credibility with the Democratic base.  I can only surmise that Clinton's "love me or leave me" approach is aimed more at gaining support in a general election than winning a primary.  Moreover, I suspect she believes her bill (calling for a start to redeployment in 90 days) will go a long way toward healing the wounds with the Democratic base.

On that, again, Clinton is mistaken.  For the 2002 Iraq vote isn't just about that one vote.  It's taken on a life of its own, and every day Clinton refuses to admit her mistake is another day she paints a picture to primary voters of just what type of President she would be.  

A president who in the past has failed to look forward, and in the present refuses to look back.  

And America certainly doesn't need another president like that...

Tags: Hillary Clinton, Iraq, 2008 elections, Barack Obama, Recommended (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 626 comments

    •  He doesn't get off the hook. (55+ / 0-)

      "It was a mistake?"  Perhaps the gravest error possible.  Ever.  In the history of the world.  That vote "has taken on a life of its own."  You can't put the genie back in the bottle.

      We don't have time for short-term thinking.

      by Compound F on Sat Feb 17, 2007 at 09:51:53 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  And (89+ / 0-)

        That Obama speech seals the deal.

        He knew,

        Shit, even Canada knew.

        Hillary knew too.

        She and the others just believed the 'cakewalk' bullshit and didn't want to vote against a winning war.

        They also thought their 'base' would be dumb enough or desperate enough to buy the 'apology' if it all went to shit.

        You want a fight, President Bush? Let's fight to make sure our so-called allies in the Middle East, the Saudis and the Egyptians, stop oppressing their own people, and suppressing dissent, and tolerating corruption and inequality, and mismanaging their economies so that their youth grow up without education, without prospects, without hope, the ready recruits of terrorist cells.

          •  And why did Feingold believe Saddam had WMD? (8+ / 0-)

            He shouldn't have believed that, but he did, and he should apologize.

            Read more (of this snark) at Russ, 3 little words: "I was wrong" (with poll!)

            I'm important, and everyone else is too. - G.K. Chesterton

            by fairleft on Sat Feb 17, 2007 at 10:32:43 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Because simply believing that... (32+ / 0-)

              did not take us to war.  Many of those who allowed that he may have WMD's still said that he was contained, that he bore watching, but there was no need to authorize force until he gave us a reason to do so.

              "Wait and see" is not an endorsement of war, it's a prudent course, which is what Feingold, Clark, Levin, and others advocated.

              "I'm for Hillary because I believe that the United States right now is in a world of crap." - spoken by a Nevada voter

              by SaneSoutherner on Sun Feb 18, 2007 at 07:28:20 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  yes, this addresses the greatest canard of the (20+ / 0-)

                right, that "even Great Britain, France, Clinton, etc. thought he had WMD." Yah, numbnutz, but that doesn't mean that they all wanted to invade Iraq! One does NOT follow to the other, of course those lying sacks of &^%^% don't care, they lie with impunity.

                This is one of their most heinous lies, imho, cuz it is so obvious that they know its a lie.

                All extremists are irrational and should be exposed

                by SeanF on Sun Feb 18, 2007 at 08:10:47 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Exactly. Clinton ignores fact/Iraq NO threat (28+ / 0-)

                  WMD NEVER = legitimate threat to the U.S.

                  Bush/Cheney's palpapbly false claims about threats to the U.S. were especially flagrant in light of the significantly greater (and potentially real) threats existing in 2002.  

                  These included (and still include) threats from sources such as:

                  Pakistan harboring terrorists;

                  Saudi financing of terrorists both pre U.S. war on Iraq and now;

                  Afghanistan's terrorist infrastructure, then and now reemerging:

                  Russian nuclear proliferation; and

                  Korea developing nuclear weapons.  (to name of few)

                  In context, Iraq’s purported "threat" to U.S. security (assuming once again that it did have WMDs) was negligible at best.  

                  The intelligence relative to what was an overall threat to U.S. interests was open, available, credible and easy for any person to understand.

                  NO MEMBER OF CONGRESS WAS MISLEAD ABOUT IRAQ.  Several chose to hide behind the false claims about the threat to the U.S. made by Bush/Cheney. However, to claim they were mislead when they had access to the same intelligence any of the rest of us had (including access to the phony analysis stamped "classified." which we did not have) is a bogus claim.

                  ALSO, many members of congress merely hid behind the comfortable skirt of that mother of all claims about WMDs as if this purported fact were even relevant to the issue of whether the U.S. needed to engage in war on Iraq. See, more realistic threats, above.

                  The conspiracy to lie about what constituted a threat to the U.S., and the Democrats and media’s failure to recognize even this simple fact, was the big "failure."  It wasn't an intelligence failure and it wasn't a matter of being misled.  Rather, it was a failure to consider the facts intelligently and a weak willingness abandon judgment and accept the obviously false rationale of a deceiptful admininstration.

                  Senator Clinton's continued failure to acknowledge this shows a worsening and compounding of her judgment errors.  There is no growth here.

                  slainte,
                  cl

                  sláinte,

                  cl

                  Religion is like sodomy: both can be harmless when practiced between consenting adults but neither should be imposed upon children.

                  by Caoimhin Laochdha on Sun Feb 18, 2007 at 08:48:22 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  sing it, brother (8+ / 0-)

                    you've spelled it out exactly right. The dems who voted for it knew exactly what they were doing and are complicit with bushco for getting us in this mess. If Hillary continues down this path, it might kill her nomination hopes.

                    The most important thing you spell out is the relative threat Iraq posed. Compare it to all the others, and its obvious to even a child that it didn't rank up there. And as you say, this is the real lie.

                    All extremists are irrational and should be exposed

                    by SeanF on Sun Feb 18, 2007 at 09:03:03 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  were 'misled', not 'mislead' (4+ / 0-)

                    I was so proud of G10 for getting it right....

                    -7.88, -6.72. "Wherever law ends, tyranny begins."--John Locke IMPEACH THE BASTARDS!!!

                    by caseynm on Sun Feb 18, 2007 at 09:27:53 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Correct you are (9+ / 0-)

                      I wish I could edit comments. . .

                      The only thing worse than a typo, is bolding the fucking thing!

                      It is beyond sad that still, today, it is too much to expect from the U.S. media that it focus on the fact that Bush/Cheney shifted the underlying issue to: "Iraq has WMDs" due to the obvious problem Bush/Cheney had with making a case for: "Iraq threatens the U.S."

                      The predicate -- WMD in Iraq-- never supported the proposed action -- war on Iraq.  

                      Still, traditional media never looked at it from this perspective and it gave a free pass to the administration and congress for ignoring this as well.  Whether Iraq was a legitimate threat to the U.S. was never the factual framing point in traditional media framing or in political advocacy for war on Iraq.  Instead everything was framed the way the White House decided to frame both the question and the answer.

                      sláinte,
                      cl

                      sláinte,

                      cl

                      Religion is like sodomy: both can be harmless when practiced between consenting adults but neither should be imposed upon children.

                      by Caoimhin Laochdha on Sun Feb 18, 2007 at 09:48:38 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                  •  She's another self-promoting "triangulator" and.. (2+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    suicide blonde, elwior

                    ....as such I would not trust her nor any other triangulating politician who will say or do anything to advance his or her political ambitions. After this worse American "presidency" on record and it's devastating aftermath the last thing that we need is a political hack in the White House.

              •  The War Was Wrong, But I Don't Blame Clinton (5+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                shpilk, DianeNYS, Lying eyes, Isara, cpresley

                I continue to be surprised at the level of dislike, distrust, contempt, etc. that people on this board have for Senator Clinton.

                I am shocked at it.  Just as I am shocked by the educated and professional women I know who hate her because her husband cheated on her.  That makes no sense to me.  I didn't like the fact that Clinton stood up and said he didn't have sex with that woman -- he lied to me. I don't think it should have been the basis for impeachment.  

                I Think The War Was Wrong, But Why Blame Clinton?
                Why does everyone here want to hear Senator Clinton be so contrite on her war vote?  

                There is nothing she can do today to erase that vote.  

                So rather than attack her for some previous vote, why not work to make sure it doesn't happen again.

                I didn't support the war, but everytime I engaged in serious discussion someone would say that they (BushCo and Congress) had information that we didn't have access to and there was clearly something there that scared them.  (And I only engage in those discussions with people whom I have some respect for because of their intellect and knowledge -- though that doesn't mean I always or even often agree with them.)

                Anyone who has ever worked in Government knows that the information that the President sees may well be different from what is shared with the legislature.  That difference has become more apparent as we learn about the 16 words, and Powell's concerns before he went to the U.N., and how Condi lied about the aluminum tubes even though those claims had already been debunked.

                The information the Senate got was not raw data.  It was what the WH massaged into a package that would support the goal and interests of the White House.  

                I'm not so certain that having seen that information  plus having all the background that Senator Clinton would have from being in the WH for the previous 8 years, that I would have made a different decision.   If you go back to 12/16/1998 you will recall that  President Clinton ordered military strike on Iraq because of his concerns about what Saddam was doing.  

                President Clinton stated:

                Earlier today, I ordered America's armed forces to strike military and security targets in Iraq. They are joined by British forces. Their mission is to attack Iraq's nuclear, chemical and biological weapons programs and its military capacity to threaten its neighbors.

                Their purpose is to protect the national interest of the United States, and indeed the interests of people throughout the Middle East and around the world.

                Saddam Hussein must not be allowed to threaten his neighbors or the world with nuclear arms, poison gas or biological weapons.

                Again, I'm not saying it was right to go to war against Iraq.  From where I stood it was the wrong thing to do.  I think by the time Bush finally attacked, I had already decided there was something fishy about what we had been told.  But the AUMF was in October of 2002.  I'm just not so sure I wouldn't have waivered myself if at that time I would have been in her position -- knowing more than most because of her previous life in the WH and also knowing that her decision was a life or death decision, i.e., was Saddam an imminent threat.

                So I don't think her statements that "If I knew then what I know now" should be held in such contempt by this community.

                Bush Lied & That Soon Became Apparent
                Is Bush untrustworthy?  Yes.  But again, when he decided to go to war, even though I opposed it and thought his reasons were personal, I did have that little nagging thought of "he must know something I don't know" that compels him to push this issue.

                I certainly don't believe that anymore, but I'm not so sure that back in 2002 I wouldn't have been more easily swayed by a presentation of compelling evidence.

                Bush is Still Lying
                I don't trust Bush or anyone in his administration to give an honest assessment -- I think they will twist the facts to fit their policy (which they did for Iraq) or they are incompetent.  Neither is acceptable from an Administration.  I was not on the impeachment train for a very long time.  I am now. I think he is going to bomb Iran.  I don't think we should allow him that opportunity.

                Bush's statements that the future of civilization hinge on "success" in Iraq also ring phony to me now (whatever the du jour definition of "success" might be).  If it were really so horrible, wouldn't other western nations be forcing their way to the table to be more involved?  

                So, I think Bush was wrong then and he is wrong now.  

                What I have learned in the interim is that Bush is not only the incompetent fool that I originally thought he was, but he is a far more dangerous incompetent fool than I ever imagined -- particularly with people like Cheney et.al. steering him.  

                I'm not saying it as an excuse for approving the AUMF.  I don't hold politicians to higher standards than I would hold myself in their situation.  You do the best you can given the information you have.  

                Having her say it was a mistake will not gain anyone any ground in this debate.  Read the Time (or was it Newsweek) article on Edwards -- he struggled with that vote on a very personal level.  Everyone handles things differently.  

                So I continue to be surprised at the level of dislike, distrust, contempt, etc. that people on this board have for Senator Clinton.

                Actually, I am shocked at it.  Just as I am shocked by the educated and professional women I know who hate her because her husband cheated on her.  That makes no sense to me.  I didn't like the fact that President Clinton stood up and said he didn't have sex with that woman -- he lied to me when he said that. On the other hand, I don't think it is any of my business. I have friends whose spouses have cheated on them.  I don't hate their spouses.  Other than trying to console a friend who has been hurt, it just isn't my business to judge what anyone else does in their marriage.  

                And if you dislike her politics because she is too centrist -- then so be it.  But attacking her isn't going to help move the country to the left.  I am all for moving the country to the left.  I can't explain how disturbing it is to me to think that Richard Nixon would be considered a liberal by today's standards.  Actually, Barry Goldwater would be liberal by today's standards (in a libertarian liberal way).  

                The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. Dwight Eisenhower, 1961

                by R2 on Sun Feb 18, 2007 at 12:02:17 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Right. Which is why PREventive war is against (5+ / 0-)

                International law.

                Putin, whatever his motivations, is uttering utterly truthful and timely words when railing against this govt's destruction of the "stone wall" of protection that is international law around what justifies war. The UN charter and Geneva Conventions, these were hard wrought insurance policies for humanity, taken from the lessons, including the utter devastation of world war 2. When will the lesson ever be profound enough to make the law forged from it something to be revered and honored, not thrown to the gutter like yesterday's news ?

                That is what all those who voted for this preventive war did, they trashed a most profound and positive outcome for humanity made to prevent the nightmare of unjustified war in future. The results of it were clear.  No war is a good war. There should never be another war, good or bad or inbetween. That is the lesson. Ignored.

                Should a "progressive" Dem blog dwell in the safe zones of a tame party, or should it drive a tame party to break out?

                by NYCee on Sun Feb 18, 2007 at 12:57:10 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Oops. Clicked "post" instead of "preview." (3+ / 0-)

                  Was still editing, meant to say in the first paragraph:

                  The UN charter and Geneva Conventions, these were hard wrought insurance policies for humanity, lessons learned from the utter devastation of world war 2.

                  And in the last, I meant to say:

                  That is what all those who voted for this preventive war did, they trashed a most profound and positive outcome for humanity made to prevent the nightmare of unjustified war in future. Really, despite it being fashioned from what many call the "good war" what came from nuremberg and the un, the legal protection against future wars, meant to say, No war is a good war. There should never be another war, good or bad or in between. That is the lesson. That is the lesson my fail-to-make-paygrade-NY-senators( and rep Maloney) ignored when they voted to authorize GODDAMN CRIMINAL PREVENTIVE WAR

                  I can never say often enough how profoundly I was impacted by Hillary's IWR vote, her behavior before the invasion, at the time, and since. By others too, but Hillary is my senator. She was a knife in my heart, her move on this. I cannot move on from it, from her so oft-unmentioned defection from international law, the enabling and promoting of PREVENTIVE war by folks like Hillary. The callous and deliberate ignoring of the bloody awful results. Mind blowing. No, I cannot forget or forgive. Ever. Calculations of this magnitude speak to callousness - she possesses it, she increases it. That is all.

                  An apology is not enough. Edwards has deftly switched his butcher knife for a butter knife, but I cannot be buttered up. You see, I saw on which side (he thought) his bread was buttered, to take the metaphor just a bit further, when he said aye in Oct 2002 and then saluted, grim-faced as any hawk general might seem, while he marched us into this abyss of a nightmare of a war with his unwavering support, no matter what, month after horrendous month. He was such a lightweight playing smart. He was not smart. He was sub paygrade for a senator, never mind a comnmander in chief. A successful lawyer who cant fucking respect international law when he has a chance to show his stuff. Creamy center, I think.

                  I wont be a party to them cheapening such abominable behavior further with two bit apologies. The damage -- deep, longlasting, horrible horrible horrible -- has been done and they are responsible for that damage. Speaking of which, like the diarist, I also find it ludicrous that Hillary says "I take responsibility," and then fails to say for what. Well, I'll say for what - for the championing of preventive war. For millions of people suffering as a result, short and long term. That's what for, you coward. You refusnik when it comes to the facts when it concerns your own miserable behavior.

                  She is just too, too much. And far, far too little.

                  Should a "progressive" Dem blog dwell in the safe zones of a tame party, or should it drive a tame party to break out?

                  by NYCee on Sun Feb 18, 2007 at 01:56:52 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Oh and... (3+ / 0-)

                    PS - I never wanted us to be 'successful' in Iraq either. Sorry, whoever this offends, but this here leftie is guilty as charged (by rightwingers, mostly, who say that we, on the left, wanted failure. Damned straight I did, and I suspect many others  - of sound mind - did, too). You see, I shuddered to IMAGINE what would happen under BushCo after an Iraq war VICTORY, with the rotten core of Preventive War given the once over by the gilding airbrush of 'success.' That smiley mask on the maggots. It was only the first step, remember. There were a whole bunch of Mid East (and who knows where else...) dominoes lined up to be tipped by our uberpower's victorious spear.

                    I shuddered, at the time, to imagine a 'success' that would then be applauded by a majority of Americans, the ignorant public that likes their uber power V Days above all. (Hence the souring in the polls on Iraq, not because people suddenly remembered how wrong preventive war - we do it because we can - but because it became increasingly clear that despite the incessant hornblowing for definite instakwik victory and democracy blooming like mad across desert borders, it didnt take and we are getting whupped. It is bloody and ugly and sad. And shameful.

                    It seems preventive war is really just war, after all.

                    Not my fault that I wished for our failure. It was all failure, with this neocon dream war more profoundly dangerous and deadly in its 'success' than in its failure. That was the choice I was given. Rock, hard place. So it was.

                    Should a "progressive" Dem blog dwell in the safe zones of a tame party, or should it drive a tame party to break out?

                    by NYCee on Sun Feb 18, 2007 at 02:16:36 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  We must be channelling each other (2+ / 0-)

                      Recommended by:
                      SaneSoutherner, elwior

                      My opposition to the war was like yours -- it ratified preventive warfare, and had it succeeded, we would have become the Germany of the twenty-first century, and have come to the same end.  There are times when patriotism demands that your country lose a war.  This is one of those times.

                      As to Hillary, I`d like her to explain why she thinks she'd make a better President than any other the other excellent candidates we have.  It seems to me that the only thing she has going for her is the Big Dawg. People would vote him back in in a New York minute.  But we have no idea whether he`d come back with her as her Dick Cheney.  In a world without Clark, Edwards and Obama, she'd be ok. But she's not essential anymore.

            •  even I thought he had some (11+ / 0-)

              wmd laying around. I figured they'd find some trophy cannister of something or other and parade it around to justify their invasion. The fact that Iraq had zero was astonishing.

              However, thinking they had some WMD does NOT mean you think they are anything more than a regional threat. They lied about deployability, which is the most important part of WMD. Having some WMD by no means compels you to invade without thinking of any other options.

              All extremists are irrational and should be exposed

              by SeanF on Sun Feb 18, 2007 at 08:20:23 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Precisely. (11+ / 0-)

                I'm not a complete and total dove.  And yes, many of us thought he probably had some bad stuff lying around.  

                IF the more rigorous inspections (which were asked for) had turned up something?  IF Saddam had made moves to obstruct the inspectors? IF he had made a move on his neighbors?  Might I then have supported some sort of narrowly limited action to take out that threat?  I might have, honestly. As I said, I'm not a total dove.

                But none of those things happened, because the rush to war and occupation drowned out any consideration of those other more prudent options.  It was serious abdication of oversight and judgement.

                "I'm for Hillary because I believe that the United States right now is in a world of crap." - spoken by a Nevada voter

                by SaneSoutherner on Sun Feb 18, 2007 at 08:57:10 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  I thought they might have some (4+ / 0-)

                but by the time we invaded, I was pretty sure they didn't.  Even before that, we were hearing that he didn't have them from credible sources.  But the horribly funny thing was the idea that he could get them here.  

                I'm worried about nuclear bombs in the wrong hands, but the point is that those are going to come from the former Soviet union or Pakistan or possibly even the U.S.  It was obvious that Saddam was never going to get nuclear weapons, and if he did, he couldn't get them here.  Same with the Iranians.

                The USSR used to do all sorts of things to provoke us, such as supplying the North Vietnamese.  We didn't attack them because the consequences were too dire.  As far as I know, Saddam never did anything to provoke us other than being an evil guy.  Well, he was an evil guy back when the Republic Party was propping him up too, and the Republic Party used to laugh at the Democratic Congressmen that were trying to stop that support.  

                •  Scott Ritter was very convincing (1+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  historys mysteries

                  He was on Democracy Now in early 2003 - one of the best bits I ever heard on radio - saying he was confident Iraq had no WMD left. His group had compiled evidence that almost all of it was destroyed, and the rest they doubted still existed. Basically it was record-keeping issues that prevented them for accounting for exactly 100% of it.

                  If only he had been on the big teevee networks then.

                  An ambulance can only go so fast - Neil Young

                  by mightymouse on Sun Feb 18, 2007 at 09:03:42 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  He was but he got slimed. (0+ / 0-)

                    They found some dirt on him and he got neutralized like Joe Wilson.  Scott Ritter was on CNN and elsewhere as a credible debunker of Bush lies and then suddenly he was the guy in the sex scandal and he backed off.

              •  Me too (4+ / 0-)

                I thought it was a relatively safe bet that Iraq managed to keep some weapons socked away.  Ultimately, however, that was not a relevant factor to the decision to engage in a war in the Middle East.

                Let's see:  Mustard gas in the hands of a completely contained and impotent tyrant requires a full scale U.S. war on Iraq.
                Nuclear weapons’ technology transfers emanating from Pakistan’s military scientists warrants a statement of concern from the Bush/Cheney State Dep't.

                These decisions have nothing to do with national security.  The Bush/Cheney game is to decide on a course of action and then come up with reasons after the fact.  

                cl

                sláinte,

                cl

                Religion is like sodomy: both can be harmless when practiced between consenting adults but neither should be imposed upon children.

                by Caoimhin Laochdha on Sun Feb 18, 2007 at 10:13:01 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  it's interesting (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              cpresley

              that you should bring that up.

              It's not snark, it's an observation: one that should help change people's mindset about the motivations behind what Hillary and the majority of the Demcocrats in the Senate did.

              But that presumes that they don't have an irrational hatred for the woman already, and from the awful postings I see, it's pretty clear a lot of people just hate her.

              "You know what the real fight is? The real fight is the definition of what is reality." Bernie Sanders

              by shpilk on Sun Feb 18, 2007 at 06:51:43 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  why? in a word... politics. (5+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            LynChi, jen, sandmancan, bic momma, madgranny

            We must especially beware of that small group of selfish men who would clip the wings of the American Eagle in order to feather their own nests. FDR, via Maddow

            by vome minnesota on Sun Feb 18, 2007 at 05:46:50 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Yep. Clinton couldn't look weak. (4+ / 0-)

              And she succumbed to the Repl. "weak on terrorism" meme. That's how we got the war, the patriot act, the death of habeas corpus and the military commissions act.
              BTW, I guess none of the Congressmen/women voting for the war read Jim Webb's WaPo editorial either.

              Barack Obama - I'll never see the threat of terrorism as a way to scare up votes, it's a threat that should rally this country against our common enemies

              by madgranny on Sun Feb 18, 2007 at 02:00:28 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  this is what irks me about her most (0+ / 0-)

                the thought that "must not appear weak" will drive her decisions, rather than "must do the right thing."

                many D's have gone down the rat hole trying to appear tough in the R frame - most notably LBJ. How many times must we repeat that drama?

                An ambulance can only go so fast - Neil Young

                by mightymouse on Sun Feb 18, 2007 at 09:06:27 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  do you know where I could find (0+ / 0-)

                Senator Webb's editorial?  I'll try to google it, but if you see this and have a link, that would be great.

                We must especially beware of that small group of selfish men who would clip the wings of the American Eagle in order to feather their own nests. FDR, via Maddow

                by vome minnesota on Mon Feb 19, 2007 at 01:26:56 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  Thanks for the link, good article by BTD/nt (0+ / 0-)

          •  Thx for link (14+ / 0-)

            to that sober testimony of General Clark who consistently spoke out against the war as did other courageous retired military like Jim Webb, Tony Zinni, Max Clelland.

            I appreciate the diarist publishing Senator Obama's fine 2002 speech against the Iraq War.

            Here's what stands out for me from 2002:

            1. In CIA Director George Tenet's pre-war congressional testimony he said he did not know whether Saddam Husseing had WMDs or not. His opinion was Iraq was "well-contained" and any weapons Saddam Hussein possessed would not be used unless we invaded and then they'd be used against our troops.
            1. Colin Powell was dragging his feet on the war until he succumbed to the pressure to make his tainted statements at the UN. There was George Tenet sitting behind Powell, almost rolling his eyes in his head. Such a cynical expression on his face as he listened to Powell's bogus info on the aluminum tubes and the WMD mobil sites in Iraq.
            1. In spite of Tenet's pre-war Congressional testimony re: uncertainty about WMDs, former President Clinton on several occasions spoke out in favor of the war. He spoke out in favor of Tony Blair's position on the war. Both Bill and Hillary Clinton chose to be war hawks.  
            1. Every current or former Senator who is now a presidential hopeful voted "yes" on the Iraq War Resolution. It's curious that John Edwards gets a free pass on his vote since he should in fairness share the burden with Clinton, but he has apparently finessed his position in arguments before the jury. I'd imagine that's frustraing for both Bill and Hillary Clinton.
            1. Conclusion. What really took personal courage and strength was to stand up to the neocons during a time of high war fever to say "no" to this war. If one could ask the people who died or suffered because of Bush's "preventive" war whether it was those who buckled to Bush or those who stood up to him who showed grit, I think they would agree that courage and toughness were shown by those who stood up to Bush. Further, those who buckled to Bush were also derelict in their responsibilities to American taxpayers who will be on the hook for upwards of $1trillion dollars. (Joseph Stiglitz/Linda Bilmes "Cost of Iraq War")
            •  It's true that Edwards made a mistake (4+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Dems2004, BMarshall, jimreyn, CenterLeft

              but, as a reminder, he was representing a Southern state where the opposite position would have been far out of synch with his constituents.  I expect that he was reacting to that pressure as well.  To me, that diminishes his culpability.  Hillary, on the other hand, was representing New York, and Bill was representing Hillary.

              If somebody writes a book and doesn't care for [its] survival, he's an imbecile.

              ~ Umberto Eco

              by Major Danby on Sun Feb 18, 2007 at 11:28:17 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Well, if instead of comparing (4+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                Dems2004, BMarshall, ohcanada, mightymouse

                the electorate of North Carolina to the electorate of New York one considered that perhaps the constituents who were really of interest to these Senators was their corporate base, it might be the simplest explanation of their vote.
                This was a corporate driven war for oil.
                I also think both Senators had a responsibility to their constituents to tell them the truth about this war.

                •  Edwards' corporate base? (5+ / 0-)

                  I know that that sounds like a good accusation, but go to his reports on contributors and try to find it.  He didn't take PAC money.

                  If somebody writes a book and doesn't care for [its] survival, he's an imbecile.

                  ~ Umberto Eco

                  by Major Danby on Sun Feb 18, 2007 at 02:26:59 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I apologize for unfairly "accusing" (1+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    Major Danby

                    Senator Edwards of anything.
                    I have not checked his contributors.
                    I' should have said that this war was not in the interest of the average person in this country. It was not in the interest of our soldiers, the taxpayers or any innocent people in Iraq.

                    There was some cool-aid that a majority of people in this country, along with the corporate media were drinking at the end of 2002 regarding attacking Iraq.

                    A few courageous people stod up and said this is wrong.

                    I live in Houston and I'm a granny. I'm not saying this took courage but I stood up at my neocon Congressman's town hall meeting to talk up the war and told him what I posted here about what George Tenet said.

                    My Congressman said "it doesn't matter what you say we're going to war".

                    The war was profitable to many large corproations. It was not profitable to the vast majority of Americans or good for our long term viability.

                    I don't understood why Senator Edwards or any of the other Democrats voted "yes". I just don't get it. I called his office as well as Kerry's and Biden's and Hagel's (R Nebraska) and tried to call Clinton's but couldn't get through as well as several others to ask them to vote "no". The presidential hopefuls (except for Feingold) all voted "yes". In my phone call I asked that these Senators be told that their vote would be used by Bush as a CYA maneouver.

                    If the were taking into consideraion the people serving in the military and the people who would pay for this and innocent Iraqis I don't understand their vote. Who did it serve?

                    Regardless, I don't have confidence in the judgement of those who voted "yes". They were under considerable pressure apparently.

                    I respcet that you have a different opinion and I expected that by now I wouldn't feel as strongly as I did then, but I still feel strongly about it.

                    I want a Congress that understands that the leaders of corporate America are not the people who should write policy. We need some balance.

                    Thanks,

              •  but by that logic (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                Major Danby

                Hillary was representing New York - which was (is) still reeling from the 9/11 attacks the year prior. Since 9/11 was being played as a reason for the Iraq invasion, I can't imagine Hillary voting against her constituents clamoring for justice.

                I can haz sound economic policy?

                by Isara on Sun Feb 18, 2007 at 05:15:23 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  And, it must be asked: (0+ / 0-)

            What do they (we) know now, that they (we) ought to know now... Like... when the bills come due there will be no Social Security, Universal Health Care or anything else.

            Maybe if things were framed according to reality some of this obvious future pain could be averted.

            Oh...but no!
            Let's just go witht the flow.

            Cynical Sunday,

            If you dance with the devil, then you haven't got a clue; 'Cause you think you'll change the devil, but the devil changes you. - illyia

            by illyia on Sun Feb 18, 2007 at 10:18:15 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Wow! (4+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Subterranean, BMarshall, jen, elwior

            GEN. CLARK: Yes, sir. I think that there is a substantial risk in the aftermath of the operation that we could end up with a problem which is more intractable than we have today.

            One thing we're pretty clear on is that Saddam has a very effective police state apparatus. He doesn't allow challenges to his authority inside that state. When we go in there with a transitional government and a military occupation of some indefinite duration, it's also very likely that if there is an effective al Qaeda left -- and there certainly will be an effective organization of extremists -- they will pour into that country because they must compete for the Iraqi people; the Wahabes with the Sunnis, the Shi'as from Iran working with the Shi'a population. So it's not beyond consideration that we would have a radicalized state, even under a U.S. occupation in the aftermath.

            It's like he thought that one through, or something.  Thanks for the link!

            "The test of the morality of a society is what it does for its children." Bonhoeffer~~~~~ Start here: freerice.com

            by LAMaestra on Sun Feb 18, 2007 at 03:15:40 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Wow (0+ / 0-)

            He was dead-on!

            "We the People of the United States..." -U.S.Constitution

            by elwior on Sun Feb 18, 2007 at 07:59:58 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Seals the deal for me (16+ / 0-)

          to be an Obama supporter for '08!

          Yet it is not our part to master all the tides of the world, but to do what is in us for the succour of those years wherein we are set... -- Gandalf

          by dnta on Sun Feb 18, 2007 at 01:47:03 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Barbara Lee knew, why not Hillary? (32+ / 0-)

            Read Barbara Lee's speech in voting against the war.

            Sounds a lot like Bush sr.'s reason for not invading back in 91 as elucidated in a letter co written with Scowcroft.

            Look, there is an alternative answer for those who voted with Bush back then.

            John Edwards says

            "I was wrong."

            End of story for me.  I've made mistakes.  You say "I was wrong." and you deal with it.

            Unless you are so politically calculating that you have lost your integrity.  Then you tack into the wind...

            Obama was against it from the beginning.
            Barbara Lee voted against it, took the heat and was proven right in the long run.
            Edwards stepped up and said he was wrong.

            And what was Hillary's answer again?

            Look, I will vote for her if she is the nominee, but not in the primary.  

            Run Al Run.

            "We will now proceed to construct the socialist order."

            by 7November on Sun Feb 18, 2007 at 05:15:28 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  I opposed the war in 2002 and 2003 also. (6+ / 0-)

            Obama was correct in his speech in 2002.  But one speech does not a President make.

            I support John Edwards in spite of his 2002 vote on AUMF because he got right on the war in 2005 and his position now is fine, even a little better than Obama, but not as good as Feingold.  But before I chose to support Edwards, I considered Obama's speech to be a plus factor for Obama. It just was not enough in light of other isuses for me.  It may be for some others.

            In the end, fair trade and economic fairness led me to John Edwards.  Obama is more moderate on those issues than I prefer, although his position may be just right for some.  John Edwards is with working folks and the unions in opposing the current hegemony of free trade.  This week he called on Bush to stop negotiating the free trade agreement with South Korea.  

            The folks in Seattle in 99 will understand.

            "The answer is to end our reliance on carbon-based fuels." Al Gore, 7/17/08

            by TomP on Sun Feb 18, 2007 at 08:05:47 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I too want a candidate who is strong (7+ / 0-)

              on unions and for fair trade.

              Joseph Stiglitz has written a lot on this:
              "globalization and its Discontents" was an excellent expose of why "free trade" is a misnomer and is really ruthless predatory trade with corrupt political overtones.

              I hope Wes Clark runs.

              He has impressed me as being committed to strong unions...he's talked about unions being strengthened to where workers truly have strong representation at the bargaining table. And he's said that unions should take on additional roles like the retraining and re-education of people who have lost their jobs.

              He rounds that thinking out with his support of new technologies of renewable sustainable energy as a win/win/win environmentally/geopolitically/good jobs.

              I hope that this primary we get to hear a thorough discussion of these kinds of issues so the voters have a chance to learn in depth about the various candidates' policy positions.

              •  Yes, I read that book (4+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                Dems2004, jen, eve, Caoimhin Laochdha

                last year.  It was good.  

                I agree with you on this:

                "Globalization and its Discontents" was an excellent expose of why "free trade" is a misnomer and is really ruthless predatory trade with corrupt political overtones

                While I prefer John Edwards, I think General Clark is a good man.  What I hope is most of the candidates take good positions on this, so that whomever wins, we all win.  So I'm happy General Clark is committed to strong unions and understands fair trade.

                I especially agree with this:

                I hope that this primary we get to hear a thorough discussion of these kinds of issues so the voters have a chance to learn in depth about the various candidates' policy positions.

                The issues are most important.  Then we can decide who fits each of us best.

                "The answer is to end our reliance on carbon-based fuels." Al Gore, 7/17/08

                by TomP on Sun Feb 18, 2007 at 08:48:28 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  If Wes Clark joins the ticket... (3+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            jen, rmx2630, 3goldens

            with Obama, it would steamroll everyone else.  only Al Gore would stand a chance.

        •  I have to say (14+ / 0-)

          that in general, I really don't like Obama. I look at him and think "snake oil salesman" or "big phony".

          But I definitely have to reëvaluate that after reading the speech cited above. It's nice to see someone in a position of power, or rather wanting a position of power, who was able to articulate forcefully and fearlessly what a lot of us were thinking four and five years ago.

          I never liked Hillary and this refusal to admit wrongdoing pretty much ices the cake. But I never thought Hillary had a chance in hell of winning the nomination: she's the Joementum of 2008. The minute there's an actual vote with real voters, she's done: it doesn't matter how much damn money she has.

        •  That's why I support Obama (11+ / 0-)

          if Gore stays out. I want someone who was at least as smart as me, who put the good of the country first. It's really that simple.

        •  "she stated in her floor speech... (32+ / 0-)

          that she thought the president already had that authority."

          That, to me, is the reason you should never allow her to become President. She's been there, on the inside, besieged by a hostile Congress. She sees herself as President, possibly facing the same set of attack dogs. She is in favor of any change which will insulate her then from Congress tying her hands.

          She wants the Imperial Presidency.

          Folly is fractal: the closer you look at it, the more of it there is.

          by Canadian Reader on Sun Feb 18, 2007 at 06:36:12 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  That right there is why I have serious issues (11+ / 0-)

            with Senator Clinton.  Until very recently she has actually defered quite a bit to President Bush.  The Iraq War Resolution wasn't the first or last time.  She often comes off to me as focused on the power structure of the American political system without giving enough weight to the greater questions like what are the consequences of invading a foreign country.  Even if you think the Executive Branch should have unitary powers, that doesn't excuse you from failing to understand the potential for a train wreck.

            None of this makes me like Obama "more" though.  He has a ways to go yet before I'm going to jump on his bandwagon.  One woman's failings do not add up to another man's triumphs.  I am still watching and waiting to hear more from Obama.  He is not the only one in the race who had the foresight on this war.  At present, I know two things about Obama 1. he didn't support invading Iraq and 2. he is very religious.  That is not enough for me to go on.

            •  What happened to Kucinich and Dean?? (8+ / 0-)

              These people were right from the very beginning--and took all kinds of crap not only from the repubs but their own party. They were "fighting" in the trenches" on this mattter befor Obama was even elected senator

              Why aren't they mentioned as serious candidates? you don't even see Kucinich mentioned but he announced his candidacy before anyone else.

              The MSM have anointed the democratic frontrunners and they don't like complexity. they want this to be a Rock star candidacy.

              I will support whatever Democratic candidate gets the nomination but I hope its not either Clinton or Obama, though VP is a consideration. How about issues, not looks? I don't think either one of them has done much.

              If Liberals really hated America we'd vote Republican

              by exlrrp on Sun Feb 18, 2007 at 07:20:46 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Kucinich isn't corporate. End of story. n/t (