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Ask a Libertarian, Part II: The Constitution as Libertarian Myth

Tue Feb 27, 2007 at 01:07:28 PM PDT

This is the second part of a series of diaries I am doing in an attempt to clear up misconceptions about libertarianism.  It is my belief that far too many people have a shallow and stereotypical view of libertarians based off of encounters with snobby high school teenagers who have read Ayn Rand and think they know everything.  I call these "vulgar libertarians" and they are trolls that contribute nothing useful to political discourse.  And so I started a series of diaries as a way to build understanding.  My first, in response to a post at Pandagon by Chris Clarke, was an open ended forum for people to ask me questions about libertarianism.  It was productive enough to encourage me to do another one.  This second one will be a bit more focused and will start with my discussion of the mythology of origins that some libertarians have for their ideology and contrasting it with reality.  It is a modification of a recent post of mine at my Libertarian Democrat blog Freedom Democrats.  

One of the core suggestions by Chris Clarke on how to make a libertarian's head explode is to confront them with the "true history" of their ideology.  What is ironic is that most libertarians already understand their history better than Clarke does, and those that would be surprised by Clarke's statement hardly hold a consistent libertarian ideology.  Clarke's claim:

Most American Libertarians have precious little grasp of the history of their political philosophy. They seem to think that the Libertarian school of thought sprang fully formed like Athena from Ayn Rand’s beetled brow, with Robert Heinlein as attending midwife. Libertarianism’s true origins, however, unsettle most Libertarians to the point where the mere acceptance of that history often starts those rusty old mental gears grinding again. To wit, and here is tactical nuclear sentence number one:

"Libertarianism originated in the philosophy of a left-wing French political philosopher who also influenced Karl Marx."

The French Philosopher in question is, as some of you have guessed (and with whose description a few of you are no doubt ready to quibble), Pierre-Joseph Proudhon, who famously penned the Libertarians’ Sekrit Motto, "Property is Theft." Of course unlike modern Libertarians, Proudhon meant that as a condemnation. Among the pre-Marxist political thinkers strongly influenced by Proudhon was Johann Kaspar Schmidt, who under the pen name Max Stirner wrote one of the first true capital-L Libertarian texts, Der Einzige und sein Eigentum, which can be translated either as "The Ego and Its Own" or, more literally and more tellingly, "The Individual And His Property." Stirner became a nucleus of a nascent school of political thought then called "individualist anarchism,"*** whose inheritance-tax-free heirs include Ludwig Von Mises, The Austrian and Chicago Schools, Murray Rothbard, Alan Greenspan, and so on.

No, Ayn Rand is not the mother of libertarianism, her ideology is Objectivism and many of her most loyal followers look down on libertarianism.  More than anything else, one of my primary goals with this series is to hammer home the point that Ayn Rand's movement is Objectivism, not libertarianism, and the two are not one in the same.  Objectivists believe that they have a comprehensive philosophy that guides all of their actions, including their political views.  To them, libertarianism is just a set of opinions and beliefs about government.  Many, if not most, libertarians find Ayn Rand's ideas interesting and believe that she got some things right.  Occasionally similar ideas and conclusions does not mean that they are the same.  Al Gore and Jerry Falwell are both Christian but they are not identical.  Alternatively, some liberals and progressives may agree with some of the critiques of capitalism by Karl Marx without being full fledged supporters of the Communist Revolution.  Ayn Rand remains a controversial figure within libertarianism as her outlook focused on the ends, not so much the means.  As such, Objectivists at times end up supporting government as a means to an end, while libertarians are fundamentally distrustful of government as a means, regardless of the end.  Objectivists, far more than libertarians, are supportive of the War in Iraq as a way of spreading "liberty" and "democracy."

Clarke is right to point out the influence that Proudhon had on Von Mises,  Rothbard, the Austrian and Chicago schools, and others who have built American libertarianism.  This is not news to libertarians.  But I think that Clarke is right in that some libertarians do need to be criticized for their view of history.  There is a constant claim within libertarianism that the movement is nothing more than the classical liberalism of the Founding Fathers still alive in today's modern world.  Not all libertarians make this claim, but enough do for it to warrant deeper discussion.

Find yourself a copy of the United States Constitution.  Perhaps you have a copy handy on your bookshelf, otherwise you can just look it up online.  A lot of Libertarians will hold up the Constitution as a great and sacred document, a kind of a political Garden of Eden that we have fallen from.  Michael Badnarik, 2004 Libertarian Presidential nominee, styles himself a constitutional scholar for the masses; 1988 Libertarian Presidential nominee Ron Paul votes no on anything that isn't specifically enumerated in the Constitution.  Even without directly mentioning the Constitution, the right-libertarian Cato Institute talks about "the principles of the American Revolution--individual liberty, limited government, the free market, and the rule of law."  Over and over again, the modern day libertarian movement turns to our founding document as a patriotic reassurance that they are in the right.  Yet they are unable to overcome a simple problem: the Constitution is not a libertarian document.

To equate libertarianism with the classical liberalism that influenced our Founding Fathers is a philosophical error.  While no doubt many classical liberals call themselves libertarians today, the modern movement has been heavily influenced by Austrian economics and Murray Rothard and takes a far more negative view of the state than the old men with wigs who wrote the Constitution.  Even the minarchists (libertarians who believe that society needs a state, in contrast to anarchists who believe that society doesn't need a state) who stop short of outright anarchism and the abolition of the state would have been seen as the most radical of radicals in the early Republic; they would have made the Locofocos look mainstream.  John Locke, Adam Smith and the rest of the classical liberal gang did express a mistrust of state power and its granting of monopolistic privilege, but they also supported a state for the maintenance of law and order in the face of natural anarchy.  A quick glance at the Constitution reveals that the Founding Fathers, far from consistently favoring a system that viewed  the state as a necessary evil, saw a role for government to "establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity."

The minarchist may still argue that these broad general principles are fully compatible with a limited government favored by modern day libertarians.  But the Constitution is also the source for Congress's power to lay excises (the ancestor to our modern day sin taxes, which libertarians often criticize), to lay tariffs and regulate commerce (protectionism, a huge no-no to libertarianism),  to borrow money and therefore establish a national debt (say goodbye to balanced budgets, another libertarian ideal), to establish post offices and post roads (see my previous complaints about this monopolistic agency), and to grant patents and copyrights (which is a contentious subject within libertarianism, some favoring it and some opposing it).  Even a strict interpretation of the Constitution would grant the government powers that libertarians today complain about.  

General welfare, that loosely defined term that continues to drive libertarians crazy in discussing constitutional interpretations, was a very real concept to these classical liberals.  The patent system is one example of how government intervention in creating monopolistic privilege was justified because of its positive impact on the general welfare.  "To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts," Congress was granted the ability to grant patents and copyrights.  While this was undoubtedly an intrusion into the free market as understood at the time (patents in British law were specifically treated as a form of monopoly), it was seen as a proper role of government in promoting the general welfare through encouraging science.  Overtime, of course, the argument would develop that inventors had some type of "intellectual property right" to a patent, but that was hardly the focus of the Founding Fathers.  Far from being a political Garden of Eden, the original Constitution was itself a fall from libertarian utopia.  While L. Neil Smith sees the Constitution itself as the original sin with the Articles of Confederation the libertarian Garden of Eden, it is more realistic to accept that the Founding Fathers and the newly independent states that they represented were not libertarian.

Other libertarians try to place the fall from grace at the Civil War, when President Lincoln and his Radical Republican Congress implemented a host of statist policies ranging from protectionism to massive transportation subsidies to well connected businessmen.  See here for an example of libertarianism criticism of Lincoln  Yet one can hardly defend the antebellum republic as libertarian given the system of slavery.  The Constitution did nothing to change this, it in fact solidified by including Article 4, Section 2, Clause 3: "No Person held to Service or Labour in one State, under the Laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in Consequence of any Law or Regulation therein, be discharged from such Service or Labour, But shall be delivered up on Claim of the Party to whom such Service or Labour may be due."  And how do we view the track record of expansionism?  President Madison started an avoidable war in an attempt to seize control of Canada, while President Polk provoked war with Mexico to fulfill Manifest Destiny.  Part of the fame of Andrew Jackson was his role in seizing control of Florida as General, without Congressional approval it should be noted.  John Anthony Quitman and William Walker were less successful in their own filibustering expeditions.  Interventionism seems to have a long history in American history, and I can only guess how liberventionists (people who claim to be libertarians yet have an approach far closer to Objectivism, with its support of state intervention for the cause of liberty--this is one form of vulgar libertarianism) who today cheer on the Iraq War in the name of "liberty" would react to my criticisms of the expansion of our republic.

The United States of America has never had a libertarian government, assuming there can be such a thing.  The existence of legal slavery ought to rule out the antebellum republic, regardless of how limited its financial resources were compared to the nation as a whole.  It seems to me that only the critics of libertarianism and vulgar corporate apologists who like the idea of monopolies running the economy attempt to argue that the Gilded Age was libertarian.  And once you get up into the Progressive Era, no one, not even critics of libertarianism will make such a claim, although I do think we somehow always end up getting blamed for the Great Depression.  Of course, other critics (or even the very same that will in another breath point out that we've tried libertarianism) will also say that libertarianism is a utopian scheme because it's never been done before.  I've never seen someone eat their cake and have it too, but it seems like people keep trying anyway.  It is no fault of libertarianism and the strength of its ideas that it hasn't been tried before.

Libertarianism is something new, there is nothing classical about it.  As I illustrated above, the classically liberal constitution granted Congress the explicit ability to grant patents and lay tariffs, two of the four cornerstones of privilege and statism according to Benjamin Tucker (a very influential American anarchist).  And it left unchallenged the system of privilege in the land and money monopolies, although the period of free banking in the antebellum republic probably did come close to breaking the latter.  By opposing the statist status quo, the libertarian movement no doubt appeals to those that still have a classically liberal view of politics.  But the libertarian movement is larger than just that, it holds a radically skeptical view of government's ability to promote the general welfare without creating privilege and inequality.  Following through this critique of government to its natural ends arguable will result in anarchist conclusions, but libertarianism still has the perception of being minarchist.  I don't think it matters if libertarianism advertises itself as explicitly minarchist or anarchist, the critique of government is the founding principle and it is what distinguishes it from classical liberalism.  

Much as modern day Christianity and Rabbinical Judaism developed out of radically different Temple Judaism over two millennium ago, modern day liberalism and libertarianism share a similar ancestry.  This is something that is disputed by some activists on both sides of the debate.  But ancestry does not mean that they are one and the same, libertarianism has expanded on classical liberalism's critique of government while modern liberalism has instead focused on classical liberalism's belief in democracy and the ability to govern with a mind toward the common good.  Classical liberalism held both of these seemingly paradoxical principles, with some followers leaning more toward one or the other.  Following the abortive attempt by Hamilton and the Federalists to establish a truly conservative society in the Americas, most of our political debate has been within the range of liberalism.  While adopting some of the programs of Hamilton, the American System of Clay was designed to encourage broad economic growth and intensification, not a new aristocratic elite.  This is illustrated by Clay and the Whigs favoring high tarrifs, which would have a widespread impact in benefiting all domestic manufacturers of the protected good, in contrast to Hamilton's support for subsidies and bounties that, like today's agricultural subsidies, would benefit larger producers at the expense of the small independent artisan.

Libertarianism is not a fetish worship of liberty, nor is it clinging to our Constitution as an ideal document.  It is intellectually dishonest to claim classical liberalism as our own and modern liberalism as some form of a bastard son; both movement can claim classical liberalism as an influence.  Focusing on rolling back the clock to 1859 or 1800 is not libertarian, it is both radical and conservative in clinging to the past as better than our present condition.  

You may ask though, just how has libertarianism gotten itself caught up with Objectivists and corporate apologists.  In this political typology by David Bruhn, he attempts to distinguish between ends and means.  Libertarianism is ultimately an ideology focused on means, it is critical of government as a means to any end.  However, political activists in the past have influenced the conventional wisdom of what a society without a government, or with little government intervention, would look like.  During the fusionism of the 1950s, it was argued that social conservatives should be libertarians because without a strong government to influence society and culture, family and church would be the two primary institutions to impact morality.  Decades later, social conservatives have jumped off the libertarian bandwagon and are now pushing for a large degree of government intervention in society to enforce their own moral code.

So you can see, libertarianism can attract two types of people:

1- Those that are libertarian because they agree with the libertarian means of minimal government.

2- Those that are libertarian because they believe that libertarian means will produce the end result that they desire.

As conventional wisdom changes, so does this second group.  The biggest problem for overcoming stereotypical views of libertarianism comes from this second group.  They are the individuals who are first drawn to libertarianism because they think it will give them what they want, and overtime they identify libertarianism not with the means, but the end result they desire.  And soon you have the corporate apologists, the vulgar libertarians, who believe that libertarianism means taking the side of corporations in any political dispute.  This is in contrast to the authentic libertarian position, which is critical of corporations because of their manipulation of the political process in an attempt to distort the free market.  As anarcho-capitalist David Friedman says, "The capitalist system of coordination by trade seems to be largely populated by indigestible lumps of socialism called corporations."  Libertarianism is not simply an ideology that believes that those poor old bosses need all the help they can get.

This diary has already gone on very long, but I welcome you to offer up any and all questions you may have about libertarianism and its origins.  I hope to continue these discussions in the future and attempt to talk more about the specifics of libertarianism, but for now I am focused on clearing up misconceptions about its origins.

Tags: libertarianism, ideology (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 194 comments

  •  Thanks for Reading! (16+ / 0-)

    Tip Jar

    ~[-0.13, -8.67]~ Socially Just, Fiscally Responsible: Freedom Democrats.

    by LoganFerree on Tue Feb 27, 2007 at 01:05:40 PM PDT

  •  Sorry I missed the first diary (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    eugene, kurt, jfm

    as this question, perhaps, would have been more appropriate there, but, if you don't mind:

    Is your vision of modern libertarianism averse to the use of the state to prevent privately engineered suppression of liberty?  For instance, does modern libertarianism support anti-collusion laws and their enforcement?  

    •  Private Threats to Liberty (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      tipsymcstagger, G2geek, jfm

      The modern libertarian response to this question would largely focus on the risks of concentration of power.  That is to say, collusion in the market between companies is unlikely to be sustained without a legal enforcement mechanism.  The lure of defecting from these agreements is just too strong.  On the other hand, government anti-collusion laws are a sign that the government has the power and authority to intervene in the market.  Once established, the rich and the powerful can easily use this principle to their own ends and lobby government to meddle in the market in a way that will benefit them.  For instance, while anti-collusion laws work to maintain a free market, the law respects the right of corporations to find binding agreements that have the same result as collusion if they do so with the claim that they are creating agreements concerning the use of patents.

      ~[-0.13, -8.67]~ Socially Just, Fiscally Responsible: Freedom Democrats.

      by LoganFerree on Tue Feb 27, 2007 at 01:42:11 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  bingo! organized power vs. individual persons (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Mike Erwin, jfm

        It's about opposition to organized power-centers that interfere with the fundamental rights of persons.  

        Government was/is the classic example becuase it holds the legal monopoly on the use of force.  

        However, modern corporations ("organized capital") have in many cases accumulated state-like power, differentiated only by the fact that they can use the levers of government, rather than overt physical force in private hands, to impose their will upon others.  

        The same case could also be applied to churches (how is it that the Catholic Church has not been prosecuted for conspiracy to cover up child molestation?), financial institutions (fraudulently-written home loans that are biased toward trapping people into untenable debt and thus foreclosure), and even labor unions (via government regulations that, for example, forbid persons from modifying their own homes, or that squeeze small businesses out of certain markets).  (And here I should mention that I generally support unions by way of countering corporate-produced market distortions that otherwise favor employers.)  

        In some of these cases, government is a means by which other groups impose their will on other persons.  In some cases, the imposing of will is done directly, with government standing aside from its proper role of protecting individuals.  

        The problem is not government as such, it's organized power in whatever form, that is not subjected to appropriate checks and balances.  

        A free society is best preserved when all interests balance and when groups of whatever kind cannot gang up on smaller groups or on individuals.  

        •  Sources of Power (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          debedb, jfm

          And yet . . .

          However, modern corporations ("organized capital") have in many cases accumulated state-like power

          How did they accumulate this power?  The very first step was the creation of the corporation, a legal entity created by the state.  And from there, how do corporations accumulate power?  Fairly, or through the manipulation of government to grant them additional wealth and privilege?

          The standard libertarian critique is that with a limited government, or perhaps even no government, the concentrations of power would be less dangerous, perhaps even to the point of being nonexistant.

          ~[-0.13, -8.67]~ Socially Just, Fiscally Responsible: Freedom Democrats.

          by LoganFerree on Tue Feb 27, 2007 at 03:36:21 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I just doubt that. (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            jfm

            It may be true that these structures grew around government. But that does not imply that they will collapse without their scaffolding at this point in their development. In actuality, they may be the ones holding up government now, rather than the other way around.

            I recall that there's a vampire tree, starts as a small vine that grows up and around its host. Once at the top, it drops shooters around its host, feeding off the original tree as it goes. Once it has fully engulfed its host, it eats away at the carcass until the original is left as just a small piece of the new tree.

            •  Interesting Point (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              jfm

              It may certainly be true that some institutions have accumulated so much power they would remain a threat to liberty if we simply cut government out of the picture.  But I don't think that rules out a strategy of weakening those institutions by removing government's support for them through privilege.  

              ~[-0.13, -8.67]~ Socially Just, Fiscally Responsible: Freedom Democrats.

              by LoganFerree on Tue Feb 27, 2007 at 04:11:34 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  It also makes it hard to combat. (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                jfm

                Sometimes the intuitive attack is not the obvious one.

                In Florida, there is an invasion of Maleleuca trees originally from Australia. The obvious attack is to cut them down or burn them out. Both strategies result in the dispersion of their shoots, since in Australia they live in a managed arid zone with annual burns. The only way to get them out is to painfully, slowly pull them out by their roots (where the shoots lie).

                Some government regulation may be necessary, as some of the other roots are attacked.

                •  Radical Solutions (2+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  jfm, RandomSequence

                  One other solution I should mention is more common among anarcho-capitalists.  Pointing out that the corporation is a legal entity created by the government, they believe it is theft to simply do away with government and leave behind those concentrations of power.  Rather they support devolution of these corporate entities so that they are controlled not by their shareholders, but by the workers of the corporation.  

                  ~[-0.13, -8.67]~ Socially Just, Fiscally Responsible: Freedom Democrats.

                  by LoganFerree on Tue Feb 27, 2007 at 04:39:13 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  even without devolving the government... (1+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    jfm

                    ...We can do this right now, and could do more of it if some of the distortions in the proverbial playing field were leveled out.  

                    Employee-owned companies, co-ops of various kinds, and other business models, should be competing vigorously in the markets for employees and customers.  The more strong examples there are, the more effiective the competition, and the greater the degree to which publicly-traded corporations will have to catch up in terms of value delivered for workers and customers.  

              •  Can you be specific? (0+ / 0-)

                about what you would like to see, with respect to how it would affect corporate power?

                "There -- it's -- you know, one of the hardest parts of my job is to connect Iraq to the war on terror." --GWB

                by denise b on Tue Feb 27, 2007 at 05:11:01 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  and then comes the Church. (3+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            LoganFerree, Mike Erwin, jfm

            Aside from the obvious cases in the Middle East, and the other obvious cases such as the Inquisition, look up this one:  

            the Magdalene Laundries.  

            In Ireland, right up to the last years of the 20th century (the last one closed in 1996 or 1999):  women who were considered "of loose morals" would be kidnapped and put into involuntary servituded in convents, often for the rest of their lives, and often with their names changed so that friends & relatives could not find them.  This occurred because the Church had effectively co-equal power with the state.  (Notice that as Ireland has become a technological powerhouse, its society has become more secular, and the power of the Church has been decreasing significantly and at a rapid rate.  There's a lesson in that for us.)

            So it may be that doing away with the state does away with the privileges of corporate "legal personhood," but you can be quite sure that, in the absence of the state, the "will to power" will find its expression in other institutions that are not subject to the will of voters, checks & balances, or even the law of the land.  

            That's why this Libertarian D is not an anarchist, or even a minarchist.  It's not about "big" or "small" government, it's about good government: by which I mean, government that is democratically elected, responsive to the citizens, efficient, professional, and responsible.  Generally that will also mean government that treats adults as adults who can make their own decisions, and it also means government that does not allow other institutions to gain sufficient power to impose their own will upon individuals.  

            (Yes, I know, six years of kakistocracy make it difficult to remember how good government works, or even somewhat-good government, but with the new Congress we're halfway home and 2008 is not that far away.)  

            •  it's about behaviors, not institutions (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              G2geek, jfm

              One of the basic libertarian principles is that certain actions are unacceptable, regardless of who performs these actions.

              Traditionally, society provides an exception for the state -- its agents are allowed to do things that no-one else is allowed to do. However, libertarians argue that agents of the state should not be given these exceptions. It follows that agents of the church, or agents of corporations should not be given an exception either.

              Libertarians only focus on the state because it is the institution that Americans provide an exception to.

              "Avoid extremes; forbear resenting injuries so much as you think they deserve." -Benjamin Franklin

              by AdamR on Tue Feb 27, 2007 at 07:51:11 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  ooh, good one! excellent! (2+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                AdamR, jfm

                "One of the basic libertarian principles is that certain actions are unacceptable, regardless of who performs these actions."

                Excellent point and all that follows from it.  This in fact is one of the top-level generalizations I have been looking for, and it was so simple & straightforward that I missed it.  

                About the state and its exceptions.  

                The common defense against "existential threats" (things that can take down the entire society, e.g. foreign invasion, terrorist attack, pandemic, ecosystem crash, etc.) is an obvious no-brainer.  

                Beyond that, the logical starting point is that the state has to have the ability to prosecute crimes of force or fraud, and to judge guilt/innocense in such cases, and where an individual is found to have acted in ways that demonstrate a threat to others, confine them in order to protect the public from them.  So we grant police powers, court powers, and penal powers to the state for these purposes.  And we don't object when, for example, those powers have to be used to deter or penalize such behaviors as the externalization of unrecoverable costs upon unwilling persons (e.g. trashing of ecosystems).  

                It is also fairly uncontroversial to assert that the state has a role to play in assuring that various playing fields remain truly level: that markets remain free and fair, for example (it's not a free market unless it's a fair market, and vice-versa), and that contending private interests can be balanced under law (e.g. organized labor and organized capital).  

                We might also recognize (and this is a subject of much debate) that the state has a valid role to play in providing certain types of public goods that are not efficiently provided via private actors, or that the state, by serving as one source of such goods among many sources, will act as a competitive check and balance in cases of a captive market (e.g. health care).  

                And last but not least, we might also be willing (again, much debate) for government to play a role in providing humanitarian or charitable support to those who would otherwise become casualties of one kind or another (this is a long debate and I'd rather not digress into it here).  

                What this gets us is a government whose elements, powers, and operations, proceed logically from certain explicit starting premises.  In all probability it would be a somewhat "smaller" government than at present, and one that would require more responsible behavior on the part of individuals (needless to say this will take a transition period to shift the culture appropriately).  But it would be rational, and more importantly, reasonable and even humane.  And we would be stronger (more capable) as individuals and as communities, which ultimately is the foundation of a stronger society as a whole.  

              •  Exceptions to the rules (0+ / 0-)

                I'd add (you touch on this, but I want to make it explicit) that the state provides exceptions to the rules for corporations, making them essentially agents of the state. A consistent libertarianism must therefore be anti-corporate.

    •  I'd like to hear some guidelines (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Mike Erwin, tipsymcstagger

      In your last diary I asked about several agencies and what your thoughts were on them.  You gave a very general answer that "different people have different ideas".  While I don't expect you to take a laundry list and give a yes/ no answer to each and every one of them  (acting as the omnipotent arbitrer of Liberatarianism as you go), I would like a more concise answer about what kinds of things you think would be acceptable.

      National Parks
      EPA
      FDA
      OSHA
      SEC
      ADA

      I have neither the training nor the access to information necessary to decide if food is safe to eat.  I do not trust any for-profit entity to tell me the truth about their products without some penalty hanging over their heads.  Is this part of "necessary" government?

      Side note about Ayn that I took from her books.  Someone was asked if standing next to large buildings made them feel small.  The answer was quite the opposite.  "I look at these magnificent creations and think 'my kind did that'.  We created such a grand thing, it makes me feel larger and more powerful."  When I worked on a loading dock that thought often crossed my mind.  As I stood in the driveway directing 53' trailers and the attached tractors, I felt like I was a demi-god.  Just by lifting a hand I could move 60,000 pounds around at my will.  Men like me were inside the machines, men like me had designed and built these behemoths.  

      I also take that to the next step... government.  As long as humanity can keep the control of their government, its size does not frighten me.  Someone in rural Arkansas has electricity and safe food because WE banded together and did it.  The government IS us and that makes me feel powerful.  When it shuts us out, then I worry.  Like now.

      www.dailykos.com is America's Blog of Record

      by WI Deadhead on Tue Feb 27, 2007 at 04:04:53 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Some ideas. (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        WI Deadhead, Mike Erwin, jfm

        National Parks

        Short term, I have no problem with national parks.  I'd rather go after the other public lands, which are little more than handouts for the timber, mining, and ranching interests.  Long term, well that's up to discussion.  Some advocates of doing away with government favor a progressive style of privatization in which those that directly work with government resources, such as public lands, would be the ones given control, not auctioning them off to the highest bidder.  I'd favor this approach.

        EPA

        Short term, beef it up.  If we're going to have a government at all, I'd much rather prefer taxes on pollution than taxes on work.  Al Gore's proposal to replace the payroll tax with a carbon tax is the way to go.

        FDA

        I'll be totally honest.  I view the FDA as a bumbling bureaucratic mess that I don't trust at all to keep food safe.  It pushes a one-size fits all regulation system that may make sense for large scale factory farms and other big businesses, but in doing so they force out smaller competitors who would do a better job in fostering local economies.

        OSHA

        Meh, not one of the foulest intrusions of government into the market.  I can oppose it on philosophical grounds and believe that it undercuts pressure that would otherwise go into labor activism.  But if I had to pick and choose what government agencies I could get rid of, OSHA would not even be close to being on the list.  

        SEC

        It's an organization regulating legal entities created by the government.  Sarbanes-Oxley may go to far, but overall I don't have a problem.

        ADA

        This falls under a disputed category within libertarianism.  Disabled individuals, like children, fetuses, and highly intelligent animals don't necessarily fit within the libertarian idea of totally rational and capable individuals.

        I have neither the training nor the access to information necessary to decide if food is safe to eat.  I do not trust any for-profit entity to tell me the truth about their products without some penalty hanging over their heads.  Is this part of "necessary" government?

        Look, I'm jealous of your situation, which seems to be blissful ignorance of how incompetent our government is in regulating food.  I'd much rather have a system in which small scale producers are the source of my food and depend on their reputation in order to make a living.  That and the threat of lawsuit.

        ~[-0.13, -8.67]~ Socially Just, Fiscally Responsible: Freedom Democrats.

        by LoganFerree on Tue Feb 27, 2007 at 04:22:27 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  where I'd go with that list... (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        WI Deadhead, jfm

        Another Libertarian D viewpoint here...

        National Parks:

        Publicly-owned land.  I have no problem with that.  

        EPA:

        Ecological damage is an externalized cost, and externalities are always illegitimate because they cause non-consenting individuals to become party to transactions between consenting individuals.  Fo rexample Alice makes widgets, Bob buys widgets, that part is consenting, but the pollution from Alice's factory that craps up Carlos' water supply or Darlene's air or Eleanor's grandkids' ability to have a planet that supports human life, are not consensual transactions.  

        Thus it is appropriate to require the internalization of the costs of maintaining the ecosystems in a condition that does not cause involuntary impacts upon others including future generations.  And thus it is legitimate to have relevant laws, and have an agency staffed by specialists who can apply those laws to specific cases.  

        FDA:  

        First, it's legitimate to require labeling of ingredients in a meaningful way, to give people a basis to make their own choices.  Second, it's legitimate to require that these labels are honest (for example "purity and potency" regulations).  Third, it's legitimate to regulate or ban items that are overtly and immediately toxic (i.e. which will poison you as soon as you ingest them).  Fourth, it's legitimate to regulate or ban items whose behavioral consequences produce a clear and compelling hazard to public safety, e.g. methamphetamine, crack cocaine, etc.  Fifth, it's legitimate to forbid medical claims that are not backed up by peer-reviewed research, since these constitute an enormous opening for fraud.  

        The principle here is one of informed consent.  If you want to eat fatburgers or smoke cigarettes or whatever, that's your choice, since the risks are well-known and government can't act like the proverbial nanny.  (In the case of a national health system, a health risk tax on these items would be appropriate but not a "sin tax" since the former is based on rational allocation of costs whereas the latter is based on the imposition of morality.)  However, you have to be able to expect that the food you buy is not tainted, the medicine works as advertised, and so on, and you should have the information needed to make these choices with full consent.  

        And for the record, I detest the expansion of FDA power to limit individual choices regarding foods, nutritional supplements, alcohol/tobacco/marijuana, etc.  These are cases where the agency over-reaches its legitimate boundaries and becomes part of a nanny state apparatus.  

        OSHA:

        A necessary check-and-balance against unsafe working practices.  However I have an idea for this one, that will also cover a few others, about which more below.  

        SEC:

        A necessary check-and-balance against investment fraud.  See also below for my solution to this one.  

        ADA:  

        Necessary in order to preserve the equal right of all citizens to have access to government services and other public accommodations.  The key distinction is cognitive: any person of normal cognitive ability, regardless of physical disability.  Those below the level of normal cognitive ability should be provided with means by which they can protect themselves from harm, including potentially having personal assistants who can help them with transactions that are outside their capability.  

        My Wild Idea:

        Re. OSHA, SEC, and a bunch of those.  The problem is the amount of paperwork and other efforts required to demonstrate compliance.  Thus, we start by eliminating the paperwork and overhead requirements, for busineses that operate honorably.  We can start with a presumption of innocense here.  However, any company that is convicted of a significant violation would immediately incur the full burden of compliance assurance.  Also any company in which a mid to high level management position is held by an individual who was formerly convicted of significant violations (within a reasonable time limit, as with prison sentences, we don't punish everything with life behind bars), would likewise be subjected to compliance assurance.  

        In other words, if a company plays fair, it benefits from not having to deal with all the paperwork.  If it screws up, it gets clobbered with something that becomes a significant cost (and thus a competitive disadvantage).  And if any individual acting in management capacity screws up, they become instant poison for any company that hires them, for some period of years.  This combination of circumstances would provide very very powerful incentives, while at the same time reducing the headaches associated with demonstrating good corporate citizenship.  

        •  Thanks for the thoughts (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          G2geek

          Thank you both for your thoughts, I wasn't looking for a line by line response but I was glad to see your thought process.  You have been very generous with your time.

          I like the idea of presumption of innocence, and G2geek hits one of my hot buttons by putting a face on the malfeasance.  A "company" is treated like an all-powerful, invincible, faceless thing. Until the shit hits the fan and then it just poofs away like a cloud of smoke.  All of the money didn't go poof, but nobody seems to be able to find it.  

          I believe that "government" has a very real and very necessary role as the deathless, unstoppable agent of justice.  A company should not be able to run out the clock against any given individual as a way to avoid responsibility.  The people within that machine should also not be able to just walk away when the company is caught doing wrong.  A company can not act, only individuals can.

          More transparency, simpler rules, and real punishment.

          www.dailykos.com is America's Blog of Record

          by WI Deadhead on Tue Feb 27, 2007 at 07:30:31 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Huh (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    theboz, DCDemocrat

    I thought libertarians were OK with slavery, since it was after all an economic transaction and slaves were people's property.

    I mean, how dare government meddle with someone's property!

    I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day
    Neither is California High Speed Rail

    by eugene on Tue Feb 27, 2007 at 01:18:02 PM PDT

    •  are you incapable of discussing libertarianism (5+ / 0-)

      without being snide?

      of so, why bother? you're basically being a troll.  this diary was offered up in good faith, your response was not.

      mydd straw poll vote: 1. other (gore) 2. unsure 3. dodd 4. edwards 5. obama

      by colorless green ideas on Tue Feb 27, 2007 at 01:27:42 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The earth is the center of the universe (4+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        eugene, theboz, mcfly, dennisl

        depending on your coordinate system.  A Democrat expressing Democratic ideas on a site dedicated to the advancement of the Democratic Party is, by definition, not a troll.

        Guess what. Kossacks continue to be very rude. I am for Obama, but I'm not a Kossack.

        by DCDemocrat on Tue Feb 27, 2007 at 01:36:07 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Riiiight (0+ / 0-)

        I'm a troll.

        Look at my diaries, look at my comment history, going back THREE YEARS, and really, call me a troll.

        I was making a totally serious point about how libertarianism is fundamentally predicated on the protection of property rights. Have libertarians abandoned that premise? I'd be pleased if they did. In any case, LoganFerree's comments about slavery surprised me given the usual tenor of libertarian discussion of property rights.

        I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day
        Neither is California High Speed Rail

        by eugene on Tue Feb 27, 2007 at 02:09:38 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Property rights (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          eugene, Mike Erwin, jfm

          Of course, the defense of property rights requires that you accept the concept that people can be property.  If you believe that is not a moral position, as we both probably do, then the issue of protecting property doesn't come up -- people are not legitimate property.

          Indentured servitude, which is a contract, may be acceptable philosophically.

          •  no it does not (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            jfm

            A person being property is a logical self-contradiction.  Personhood is the more fundamental of the two categories so it takes precedence.  

            Indentured servitude would be considered a "voluntary" forfeiture of personhood, but since personhood is inalienable, i.e. inseparable from the individual person, there is no right to voluntarily forfeit it.  And from a consequentialist perspective, "voluntary" rapidly becomes a slippery slope, for which there is a compelling public interest in preventing the first step.  

            •  An interesting grey area (0+ / 0-)

              How much of your freedom can you voluntarily give in an exchange before society steps in and says that you aren't allowed to do that?

              I'm not sure that indentured servitude is actually a forfeiture of personhood.  If it was, I would agree with you.

        •  Property (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          G2geek, jfm

          Proudhon, one of the major originators of libertarian thought, had two famous sayings.

          "Property is theft."

          And

          "Property is freedom."

          How can both be true?  It depends on the libertarian understanding of morality and property rights.  Claiming someone else as your property is wrong, it is theft.  In the same way, using the state to seize land from its native inhabitants is theft and morally wrong.  Proudhon was critical of the wealth accumulated by many of the rich and the powerful because their property was based on theft.  Libertarianism does not blindly defend all private property, but rather focuses on the morality behind one's claim to property.

          ~[-0.13, -8.67]~ Socially Just, Fiscally Responsible: Freedom Democrats.

          by LoganFerree on Tue Feb 27, 2007 at 02:30:10 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Clarification (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            LoganFerree, jfm

            It's not just the morality of the claim to the property, but the morality of any rival claims, how they are defended, how they are judged, etc.

            When the landlords judge the land disputes, you get corruption ...

            Liberty - Mother, not daughter, of Order

            by Mike Erwin on Tue Feb 27, 2007 at 03:53:39 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  More than this (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Mike Erwin

            Property is theft, property is liberty, property is impossible.

            Property is theft because under feudalism and capitalism, the ownership of property allows some people to make a living based on other people's work.  This is theft of the workers' labour, enabled through privilege.

            Property is liberty because it is impossible to make a living based on your own work without property to apply it to.  The farmer must have land, and the artisan must have tools and raw materials.  If you own, individually or collectively, the property you need to make a living, then you are free.

            Property is impossible because under capitalism these two characteristics of property cannot be reconciled, leading to a permanent conflict of interest.

            See this page for an interesting discussion of this paradox by Robert Anton Wilson.

        •  not fundamentally or above other rights (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          jfm

          Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, among others including but not limited to those ennumerated in the Constitution and Bill of Rights.  

          Among them is a right to property; and also the logical necessity of a right to subsistence, i.e. to providing for one's own livelihood and material necessities.  These are two instances among others, and by no means the only instances.

          When rights come into conflict, we very often have to turn to government to settle the matter via legislation and via the courts.  

          I for one do not place the right to property as a-priori above other rights, or hold that it's sacrosanct in all cases.  I suspect many of my fellow Libertarian Ds agree with this point.  

          •  Property a dependent right (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Mike Erwin

            As you allude to, the right to property is a dependent right on the rights to life and liberty.  Property is a prerequisite to obtaining subsistence (life) without having to give up your liberty (as you would if, lacking property, you were forced into slavery or wage slavery).  But if we agree that everyone has the right to life and liberty, we must agree that they also have the right to property.

        •  Property rights (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Mike Erwin

          One of the founders of the libertarian tradition is famous for his answer to the question (the title of one of his books), What is Property?.

          His answer?  Property is theft.  Yeah, that's a ringing endorsement of absolutist property rights.

          One wing of the libertarian tradition tries to define liberty in terms of property rights (in particular, on the concept of "self-ownership").  This formulation is hardly universal, but I'm not surprised that you've seen very vocal right-libertarians supporting this view (most likely on the internet).

          But any libertarians posting on Daily Kos and voting Democratic are highly unlikely to be propertarians.  To the extent we're concerned with property rights, we're concerned with the problem of differential enforcement of property rights.  See, for example, the enforcement of Ralph Horowitz's claims against the South Central Farmers, who left-libertarians generally agree are the true owners of their land.

        •  history does not determine future behavior (0+ / 0-)

          you are not a troll, but a trollish comment a trollish comment, and everytime a libertarian oriented diary is written, there you are, ignoring the content of the diary, and casting aspersion on what you believe libertarianism to be.

          you are totally free to believe whatever you want to believe about libertarianism, and in many (even most) cases you may be right.  but when someone offers up a diary in good faith, wanting proactive discussion, what purpose does it serve for you to come in and serve up your preconceived notions, rather than discussing the issues at hand? it serves none. it is trollish.

          i would like--just once--to see you attempt to have a real conversation on this issue, without telling people who call themselves libertarians what they think? ask questions, listen, and learn, without being blinded by the label of the ideas they are discussing. just give it a try.

          mydd straw poll vote: 1. other (gore) 2. unsure 3. dodd 4. edwards 5. obama

          by colorless green ideas on Wed Feb 28, 2007 at 12:40:27 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  That really is offensive (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      LoganFerree, dennisl, jfm

      to an honest reasonable diary.

      If you're not going to be a constructive participant, then you shouldn't participate.

      •  Am I wrong? (0+ / 0-)

        It was a totally serious and honest point. Or is libertarianism now questioning the sanctity and primacy of private property?

        I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day
        Neither is California High Speed Rail

        by eugene on Tue Feb 27, 2007 at 02:07:06 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  libertarians are the first to attack property (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          jfm

          Libertarians spend a lot of time discussing what is and isn't legitimate property. As a consequence, libertarians are generally eager to attack illegitimate forms of property, while others just take them for granted.

          "Avoid extremes; forbear resenting injuries so much as you think they deserve." -Benjamin Franklin

          by AdamR on Tue Feb 27, 2007 at 08:12:08 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Silly. (3+ / 0-)

      it wouldn't be slavery, silly.

      It'd be a contract.

      A slave is forced. A hiree isn't.

      Libertarians abhor the use of collective force.

      Sorry America: He's just not that into you.

      by LoneBlackMan on Tue Feb 27, 2007 at 02:15:51 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Really? (4+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        LoganFerree, theboz, debedb, jfm

        Miners working in company towns only had access to overpriced food and shelter in company owned stores and housing. Therefore, they were always in debt and couldn't leave to take up other work.  They often had to have their wives and children work in the mines just to make enough to not starve. Yet, they weren't "slaves".

        Apprentices were contracted to their masters and were not permitted to leave for the length of their contract. Before brushes, small children were apprenticed to chimney sweeps to go up into the flues to clean them.  In addition to breathing in all that soot, sometimes fires were lit to make a reluctant kid climb up. It was easy to slip and fall. Sweeps apprentices didn't usually make old bones. Not "slaves" either.

        One might say that these were both contracts freely entered into, but hard to exit (alive).

        John McCain--not so much old as obsolete.

        by ohiolibrarian on Tue Feb 27, 2007 at 03:19:13 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Big Picture (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          jfm

          One can easily argue that they were victims of wage slavery, in practice virtually enslaved even if they weren't legally.

          Coercion can come in many different forms, but ultimately I think the big picture the libertarian has would try to question to what degree these examples were encouraged by the state.  For instance, the apprenticeship system was a product of guilds, legal monopolies protected by the feudal state.  Miners who went on strike would find the state being called in to break them up.  Those are just some surface examples.

          ~[-0.13, -8.67]~ Socially Just, Fiscally Responsible: Freedom Democrats.

          by LoganFerree on Tue Feb 27, 2007 at 03:22:14 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  And the pinkertons. (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            theboz, jfm

            It wasn't always the state. Once you have a massive enough accumulation, you can become the defacto state, even if not dejure.

            •  And Yet (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              jfm

              The Pinkertons profited from the government outsourcing duties to them, and also from looking the other way when they created violence.

              ~[-0.13, -8.67]~ Socially Just, Fiscally Responsible: Freedom Democrats.

              by LoganFerree on Tue Feb 27, 2007 at 04:25:51 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Of course. (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                jfm

                That's why attacking from just one end will only result in failure. It's not government or corporations or... It's a system, composed of many sub-systems. Looking for a devil won't get you anywhere. There is no keystone with which to bring down the bridge.

                •  What Better Time Than Now? (1+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  jfm

                  So what better time than now to stop with the system of government support of various interests in society.  Even with the best of intentions, the unintended consequences are not worth it.  

                  ~[-0.13, -8.67]~ Socially Just, Fiscally Responsible: Freedom Democrats.

                  by LoganFerree on Tue Feb 27, 2007 at 04:40:47 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I agree, but how? (1+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    jfm

                    See my other comments on this thread. The problem that libertarianism faces as a viable political force is the "engineering" aspect. We can't just start tearing down. You need all the hard footwork of designing structures to replace them. And I keep on getting from libertarians that the "market" will somehow magically fix everything.

                    Well, if you define "market" wide enough, of course everything will work out at the end of time. But it may be after I starve to death, or get smacked in the head by the roving barbarians.

                    On another part of this thread, I bring up open source software as an example of a non-market yet non-coercive group dynamic. That didn't emerge magically. It involved serious thought, work and sacrifice by a large number of people. More alternatives like that need to be proposed, to replace the current functioning of society with non-coercive means.

                    •  First Steps (2+ / 0-)

                      Recommended by:
                      G2geek, jfm

                      OK, here's a broad overview of tearing down: tear down spending from the top down, reduce taxation from the bottom up.

                      Your point is your concern about starving to death or getting killed by barbarians.  Fair enough.  We start by rolling back the programs that do the most to support privilege and wealth.  Corporate welfare is the huge category here, but I'd also be critical of military spending given the corruption displayed by the Republican Congress.

                      Cutting taxes from the bottom up, such as starting with an expansion of the personal exemption or EITC, gives more money to average Americans to help lift themselves out of poverty and build the institutions that will replace government.  

                      ~[-0.13, -8.67]~ Socially Just, Fiscally Responsible: Freedom Democrats.

                      by LoganFerree on Tue Feb 27, 2007 at 05:03:19 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

            •  and treated the same as the state (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              jfm

              If an organization became a de facto state, then libertarians would oppose that organization with the same zeal and for the same reasons that they oppose the state.

              It's not really about the state, it's about how humans treat each other and whether anyone should get special privileges.

              "Avoid extremes; forbear resenting injuries so much as you think they deserve." -Benjamin Franklin

              by AdamR on Tue Feb 27, 2007 at 08:14:59 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  I wouldn't even have to go that far. (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            jfm

            Another Libertarian D here.

            Indentured servitude of whatever kind, including wage-slavery, is prohibited because:

            a)  A person cannot be property.  Personhood is inalienable, i.e. inseparable from the individual person, and thus takes precedence over the condition of being or becoming property.  

            b)  A "voluntary" contract to forego personhood becomes a slippery slope and there is a c