Daily Kos

Signs of a broken Army

Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 04:24:01 AM PDT

One of my normal morning tasks is to glance at my morning email from the Boston Globe.  That has consequences.  Thus even though I awoke this morning expecting to check my email and at best glance at dailykos without posting a diary, I again find myself impelled to write this.  I want people to be aware of two things in today's Globe that are signs of how broken the Army already is.  One is a news story entitled West Point grads exit service at high rate.   The other is an op ed by Lawrence Korb, a former Assistant SecDef in the Reagan administration entitled A troop readiness crisis.  

Think for just a moment of the impact of those two titles - not able to retain the future leadership, and the troops they should be leading not being ready for combat.  This is what Bush and company have wrought.  You can read the two pieces to understand and skip the rest of this diary.  Or you can follow below the jump as I explore them and and offer some observations of my own.

Let's start with the Korb piece.  We have all heard the stories about the short cycle on which troops are being returned to the Iraqi theater.  The Democrats have attempted in the legislation now pending to slow down this rapid cycling by requiring that units be home for one year before being returned to theater.  Bush has object to this, calling it a micromanagement of the war.  But both Bush and the proposal are a violation of current Army doctrine.  As Korb notes

Bush needs to address the issue of why Army doctrine mandates that units spend two years at home between deployments -- one year of recuperation followed by one year of training -- and why Congress is insisting that units spend at least one year at home. The answer is that it takes two years for a unit to attain a readiness level of C-1, or ready for the full wartime mission, and at least one year to become C-3 or even marginally combat ready. Of the 20 Army combat brigades in or on their way to Iraq or Afghanistan, none has been home for two years and four have not been home for a year. One unit, the 4th Infantry Division Headquarters from Fort Hood, Texas, will return to Iraq after about seven months at home. None of the units was rated fully or even substantially combat ready (C-2) when deployed.

.

We have already seen some consequences to the recent rapid cycling.  Korb notes of the 1st Brigade of the 3rd Infantry Division, on its 3d deployment after about 1 year home

because of its compressed time between deployments, some 150 soldiers joined the unit right out of basic training, too late to participate in the training necessary to prepare units to function effectively in Iraq. Unfortunately one of the 18-year-old soldiers who joined the unit on Dec. 18, 2006 has already been killed.

 The 4th Brigade of the 1st ID was sent over about 1 year after being reactivated

More than half of the brigade's soldiers in the E-4 and below rank are right out of basic training and the bulk of its midlevel non commissioned officers in the ranks of E-5 and E-6 have no combat experience.

.  And the 1st brigade of the 3rd ID, sent to Iraq on it 3rd deployment after less than 11 months home?

To keep its numbers up it has had to send some 75 soldiers with medical problems into the war zone.

And the news story? It begins with a slap across the face:

Recent graduates of the US Military Academy at West Point are choosing to leave active duty at the highest rate in more than three decades, a sign to many military specialists that repeated tours in Iraq are prematurely driving out some of the Army's top young officers.

 It gives the details:  903 commissioned in 2001 of whom 46% left the service last year, and more then 54% of of the 935 commissioned in 2000 gone by January,

The figures mark the lowest retention rate of graduates after the completion of their mandatory duty since at least 1977, with the exception of members of three classes in the late 1980s who were encouraged to leave as the military downsized following the end of the Cold War.

How does this compare?  In most years of the last three decades the attrition rate at the 5 year point has been between 10 and 30%.  The article acknowledges multiple factors, including the appeal of the private sector (which I presume might include higher pay working for companies like Blackwater, although the article does not specifically address that,

But interviews with former West Point superintendents, graduates, and retired officers pointed to another reason: the wear and tear on officers and their families from multiple deployments.

To have a higher retention rate, the Army is offering graduates perqs like choice of a home base, graduate school in return for extending one's commitment to 8 years instead of the normal 5.  

There are quotes from Jack Reed, himself an alum, and Wes Clark, among others.  They acknowledge that during the 1990's the Army was downsizing, screening officers and encouraging some to get out.  And it is not clear what percentage of the classes might have transferred to Guard or Reserves.  A spokesman said that only 4 from the two classes whose statistics the article examined have been killed in Iraq or Afghanistan (and no figures were given for those wounded, even those forced out by their injuries).  We should note

Reed likened the departure of recently minted West Point graduates to the situation during the waning days of the Vietnam era, when "at the five-year mark you were losing a lot of officers because of the wear and tear."
Indeed, the percentages of recent graduates wanting to leave active duty may even be higher. The numbers do not reflect those who may have been forced to stay longer than five years under the wartime authority known as "stop-loss," in which the president can order troops with critical skills to remain on active duty.

 And the article closes with a dire warning from Clark that

"There is a lot of development that goes into" molding these unique military leaders, he said in an interview. "There is no way to get them back."

My own military service was as an enlisted man more than 4 decades in the past.  I do not claim expertise on matters such as this.  I would think the implications are very clear.   What is interesting is that I see parallels to what is happening in the Army in other sectors of our governments.  Think of the politicization of the Justice department, with career civil servants being forced out or deciding to step down from leadership - one implication is the lack of competent leadership and what that does to the impact of governmental action, even beyond the political implications.  Or in my own field of teaching:  the equivalent to the two issues I describe are that experienced teachers are leaving at increasing rates, and the students being advanced through the system are decreasingly prepared for the higher demancs of upper grades, resulting in a loss of preparation for further studies and life opportunities.  This damage may not be as immediately damaging to them as the tragic consequences to our service men and women of the loss of leadership and lack of preparation, although it has a large impact of its own.

The president now wishes to argue that the Democrats are causing the overrotation and extended tours because of a bill that he says he won't sign - he wants no restrictions on how he uses troops.  I was unaware that enlisting was the equivalent of indentured servitude or worse, and I also believe that our government owes a great responsibility to those it places in harm's way.  Even for those who do not get killed or visibly physically damaged, the impact of our military policy is increasingly devastating, in stress, in the breakups of marriages, in the economic losses suffered by activated Guard and reserve forces.  

Michael Dukakis was criticized for the part of his nomination acceptance speech where he contrasted himself with the then incumbent, father of the current president, when he said it was not a question of ideology but of competence.  Would that were the case today.  It is a question of both.  This administration has proven itself dangerously incompetent, precisely becausen of its ideology.  It will take decades to undue the damage it has done in so many areas.  And the damage to the enlisted men and women still serving, who unlike the newer graduates from West Point are not being given a choice of duty station or offered graduate school in return for extended service, have a Hobson's choice of taking a reenlistment bonus or being extended involuntarily even without a bonus (as they are "reminded"), that damage may be permanent, irreparable.  

During the Civil War Abraham Lincoln took actions he believed to be right, fully expecting that he would lose the election of 1864. It is time for those political leaders of both parties who know the futility of what we are doing to take the actions necessary to end the carnage.  Even beyond the damage we are doing to the Middle East, and the hatred we are engendering, we are doing irreparable damage to America.  It is time that it stopped.  NOW.

Tags: Iraq, West Point, Lawrence Korb, Recommended, Broken Military (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 192 comments

  •  Do with this what you will (134+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
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    My words are not what is important.  The content of the two pieces are.  That is why I took the time to craft this, to encourage you to read them, to understand the implications.  

    And then?  Perhaps to take action.  Perhaps you can forward the two pieces to your Member or Senator.

    As to this diary?  I will eventually read all the comments,  but I am not going to babysit, or to ask for recommends or comments and I sure don't need the mojo on this tip jar.  I want people to know, I want these articles to be read.

    So what happens now is up to you.

    I wish I could say "peace" but that seems inappropriate to apply to this thread.  

    do we still have a Republic and a Constitution if our elected officials will not stand up for them on our behalf?

    by teacherken on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 04:21:49 AM PDT

    •  I'm not sure... (5+ / 0-)

      ...that "peace" is the inappropriate way to end, since it is always a goal to be worked towards.  Yes, violence and war sometimes really are necessary for true self-defense, but it is always regrettable when we are forced to that resort.

      Bush, of course, lied us into this unnecessary war - and is now, through his ineptitude and the gross miscalculations made, in the process of destroying our very ability to defend ourselves.  You're old enough to remember the "hollow army" of the 1970s, due to the Vietnam debacle - this will be worse.

      Read or *listen to* my SF novel for free. (-7.13/-7.33)

      by Shadan7 on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 04:50:24 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I am tempted to use a parallel expression (17+ / 0-)

        one which has been on a sign from FCNL on my front lawn for several years (although the frame broke recently and I need to replace it:

        "War is not the Answer"

        do we still have a Republic and a Constitution if our elected officials will not stand up for them on our behalf?

        by teacherken on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 04:54:01 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  perhaps our leaders should have read this (6+ / 0-)

          And now, friends and countrymen, if the wise and learned philosophers of the
          elder world, the first observers of nutation and aberration, the discoverers of
          maddening ether and invisible planets, the inventors of Congreve rockets and
          Shrapnel shells, should find their hearts disposed to enquire what has America
          done for the benefit of mankind?
          Let our answer be this: America, with the same voice which spoke herself into existence as a nation, proclaimed to mankind the inextinguishable rights of human nature, and the only lawful foundations of government. America, in the assembly of nations, since her admission among them, has invariably, though often fruitlessly, held forth to them the hand of honest friendship, of equal freedom, of generous reciprocity. She has uniformly spoken among them, though often to heedless and often to disdainful ears, the language of equal liberty, of equal justice, and of equal rights. She has, in the lapse of nearly half a century, without a single exception, respected the independence of other nations while asserting and maintaining her own. She has abstained from interference in the concerns of others, even when conflict has been for principles to which she clings, as to the last vital drop that visits the heart. She has seen that probably for centuries to come, all the contests of that Aceldama the European world, will be contests of inveterate power, and emerging right. Wherever the standard of freedom and Independence has been or shall be unfurled, there will her heart, her benedictions and her prayers be. But she goes not abroad, in search of monsters to destroy. She is the well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all. She is the champion and vindicator only of her own. She will commend the general cause by the countenance of her voice, and the benignant sympathy of her example. She well knows that by once enlisting under other banners than her own, were they even the banners of foreign independence, she would involve herself beyond the power of extrication, in all the wars of interest and intrigue, of individual avarice, envy, and ambition, which assume the colors and usurp the standard of freedom. The fundamental maxims of her policy would insensibly change from liberty to force.... She might become the dictatress of the world. She would be no longer the ruler of her own spirit....
          [America's] glory is not dominion, but liberty. Her march is the march of the mind. She has a spear and a shield: but the motto upon her shield is, Freedom, Independence, Peace. This has been her Declaration: this has been, as far as her necessary intercourse with the rest of mankind would permit, her practice.

          -John Quincy Adams 1821

          My guess is that the Clinton campaign will come up with a plan to deal with spontaneity. -Charlie Cook

          by waitingforvizzini on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 10:19:15 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Dukakis was right about "competence" (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      greenearth, Mae

      it just took 12 years to get a bigger boob than Reagan to prove it.  

      Sadly, Bush-the-first turned around Duke's claim by hammering away at the Boston Harbor issues and the infamous prisoner furlough program gone bad and personified by Willie Horton.  Contrasted with the many transgressions of the Reagan era, most noteworthy Iran Contra/ arms-for-hostages- Duke was 100% correct.  The skewing of the campaign on those 2 issues was an amazing feat of distortion by the Karl Rove of that time- Lee Atwater.

    •  In lousy times like these (10+ / 0-)

      I gotta give you mojo, teacherken. It's one way we have of keeping kindness as part of our collective M.O.  

      You deserve mojo for your consistent, dedicated search for truth and meaning.

      You deserve mojo for supporting our soldiers and their interests in the face of a noisy, deceptive minority calling us "unpatriotic" and claiming we "don't support the troops."

      You deserve mojo for bringing yet another example of this administration's incompetence to our attention.

      You deserve mojo because you appropriately put the onus on us. It's our job to learn and stay on top of these issues or else they will never be fixed.

      And, most definitely,

      P E A C E

      July 9, 2008 -- I watched helplessly while Congress destroyed my Constitution. R.I.P.

      by bleeding heart on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 09:59:10 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Oh boy! (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      greenearth, Wreck Smurfy

      Bush wil have to use his private army now!

      No choice in the matter as, apparently, Americans do not want those menial military jobs. We'll have to out-source! Come one Mercenary! Come All!

      Happy Happy, Joy Joy!

      Not.

      If you dance with the devil, then you haven't got a clue; 'Cause you think you'll change the devil, but the devil changes you. - illyia

      by illyia on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 02:05:44 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  a relevant press release from Sen Webb's office (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      greenearth

      for some reason, perhaps because I have some visibility as a blogger?, I am on the press distribution list from Webb's Senate office.  I thought people might want to see the email I just received:

      For Immediate Release                                                        

      Wednesday, April 11, 2007

      Senator Webb: "This Administration is Breaking Our Army"

      The following is a statement from Senator Jim Webb regarding Defense Secretary Robert Gates’ announcement that U.S. Army deployments will be extended from 12 to 15 months:

      "Today’s announcement by the Secretary of Defense is further indication that the administration’s failed strategic policies are breaking our military.  The ‘new policy’ simply formalizes an extension to 15-month deployment tours for Army soldiers—ensuring that the disproportionate sacrifice that they and their families are being asked to bear will only grow more disproportionate in the years ahead.

      "These extensions will place new strains on an already overburdened Army—a force that is being broken progressively as the result of a mismanaged strategy in Iraq. As one commentator observed recently, there are simply too many missions for too few soldiers. Many soldiers are already serving on their third and fourth deployments to Iraq and Afghanistan.  These extensions may well affect morale as they are asked yet again to accept the consequences of a misdirected war.

      "Today’s announcement only heightens the need for more forceful congressional oversight of administration war policy and the adoption of legislation that Senator Hagel and I developed, requiring that U.S. military units be fully combat ready when they are deployed, that the length of deployments be restricted, and that minimum time periods be maintained between deployments."

      do we still have a Republic and a Constitution if our elected officials will not stand up for them on our behalf?

      by teacherken on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 03:16:58 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  We all knew this would happen. (30+ / 0-)

    Bush is trying to fight a war with too few troops, which can be done for a while, until your armed forces are held together with spit and coffee. At least in Vietnam they took the risk of a draft. No matter how wrong the war was, it was a politically risky move.

    I do not mean to gloat over being right: It is a tragedy. Every death is a tragedy, and every instance of crippling ineptitude is criminal. And this is one which could, in the end, do away with the US' military supremacy. Or even basic security.

    I just hope the Bush administration gets what's comong to them. With the amount of bad karma they've surely accrued over the years...

    Omne malum nascens facile opprimitur, inveteratum fit plerumque robustius. - Cicero

    by Dauphin on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 04:28:06 AM PDT

    •  he is not trying to fight a war.... (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      mmacdDE, Proud SW FL Lib

      he is trying to build a country.  If our one and only goal was to conquer and destroy Iraq would no longer be on the map in any sense of the word.  I think that is a clear distinction.  Our Army is not weak or on the breaking point or anything.  But they are not an occupying force in a sectarian civil war.  

      •  sorry, but many 4-stars disagree with you (23+ / 0-)

        they say it is broken already, or at the breaking point.  And they say the Marine Corps is not that far behind.  That includes people like Wes Clark, Barry McCaffrey, and quite a few others.  Oh, and Larry Korb was Asst SecDef for Manpower, and probably knows a bit about this.

        On top of the personnel issues, we are wearing out our equipment at an horrendous rate.  And the Guard units are increasingly bereft of even basic equipment during those times when they are at home.  What equipment they did have is often left in Iraq.

        do we still have a Republic and a Constitution if our elected officials will not stand up for them on our behalf?

        by teacherken on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 05:22:55 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Beware: Repubs attempting to blame Dems. (22+ / 0-)

          for the breaking military. I have heard this new *Rovian Talking Point* in the last several days.

          When Bush stamps his feet and lies to the press about the Iraq funding bill, he throws in the RTP lie that all the problems now happening are due to the Dems holding out on proper money for the military.
          Thus he pulls a typical Rove trick of blaming us for what they have done, and attacking us at our strongest point.

          I am sure the wingnuts are now saying that everything that is going wrong is because of the pork-laden bill the heel-dragging Dems passed, instead of Bushco's documented behavior during the last 6 years. Watch for it. Counter it!

          •  The Real war reporters are tired (5+ / 0-)

            of carrying Bush's water. McCain tried to claim that you could walk the streets of Baghdad and got called out. When he finally pulled off his photo op stunt, 21 Iraqis were dead the next day on his account. He is plummeting in the polls.

            So I have hope that the MSM won't tell Bush's lies anymore about how the army was broken. Certainly bloggers won't let those phony talking points stand. The Dems are trying to find a way out of the mess in Iraq. So far they have not affected anything there.

            This is Bush's occupation and his attempt at nation building in Iraq. The Bush administration is breaking the army, no one else.

            "It's the planet, stupid."

            by FishOutofWater on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 06:29:29 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Of course the Iraq war has Bushco's monogram (3+ / 0-)

              on every square inch of it. Do MSM types actually realize that? And will they remember that in the face of new distractions/shiny objects/and RNC hints about what "some are saying".

              I truly hope you are right, and that things have finally gotten so blatantly bad that even the journalists and MSM types can finally see it. But most seem to have the attention span, memory, and critical thinking skills of a 2 year old who just downed all their Halloween candy at on sitting.

              Just MHO.

          •  Can someone drag Rove off to Haifa Street (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            greenearth

            and leave him there - unaccompanied - to answer Iraqi questions about what the US is doing?

            Sereiously, at what point in time is someone FINALLY going to give this slimeball the ass-kicking he deserves?  Bring back duels - or throw him into an "Ultimate Fighting" ring.

            Rove is a coward who hides behind legalities while twisting EVERYTHING into meeting his evil goals

        •  Not broken, tired (11+ / 0-)

          The Army is most certainly not broken.  In fact, by any objective measure we have the best Army in decades.  The majority of our leaders have been in combat and learned the lessons that only come from being under fire.  We have Company commanders leading who carry the lesson they learned as junior LTs.  Sergeants who bring hard training to junior soldiers because they know what works and what doesn't.  We have Tactics, Techniques and Procedures paid for with blood being distributed at the speed of the internet.  We share lessons learned tat are hours old around the globe. You would be amazed how seriously people take not getting killed.

          That said.  We are tired.  I consider myself lucky because I have been deployed "only" 3 of the last 7 years.  All things considered, I am doing great.  Soldiers are doing ok.  They would rather not be gone quite so much but most of us became soldier because we want to soldier.  Nothing better than doing what you love and getting paid for it.  Families are a different story.  My wife is done.  Done moving (10 times in 16 years).  Done worrying.  Done with a part time marriage.  I know she loves me but I also know that were it not for our children, she would have left by now.

          I am too close to retirement to walk away now but if I were at the 4-5 year mark it would be a different story.  Most of my friends are in the same boat.  We have too much invested in and institution we love to walk away right now.  

          If you think the current flight of early career guys i bad, wait a few years when all of us who were at 10 years in 2001-2003 and decided to stick it out ALL retire at 20 and a day.

          It is well that war is so terrible -- lest we should grow too fond of it. Robert E. Lee

          by ksuwildkat on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 06:11:53 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Are you active or guard/reserve? (9+ / 0-)

            Because while active duty know that separations and deployments are part of the job, guard/reserve did NOT sign up to be deployed 2 yrs out of 4, they did NOT sign up for a war of choice.

            They signed up to be the RESERVE - to be called up in EMERGENCIES.

            Bush's problem is not OUR emergency. Those troops need to be home, NOW.

            •  you take the pay (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Wreck Smurfy

              you got to play.  Reserve and guard folks collect a pay check every month.  If they thought they wouldn't be called up, Desert Storm should have taught them otherwise.

              I have little sympathy for folks who get paid for years and are expected to do very little and then complain when the bill comes due.

              I think the guard and reserves have gotten a raw deal on a lot of things but they either knew before they signed or should have known.

              It is well that war is so terrible -- lest we should grow too fond of it. Robert E. Lee

              by ksuwildkat on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 10:01:34 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  what they knew had limits (5+ / 0-)

                which are now being regularly violated.  As are the limits for the active duty guys.

                And remember, when Guard was being sent in theater they were not getting the same benefits as the Regular Army.

                So I think your comment is off base.  Under the old 0-4 system of rating this would have gotten you a lot of 1s and 2s.

                do we still have a Republic and a Constitution if our elected officials will not stand up for them on our behalf?

                by teacherken on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 10:03:56 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Adults make adult choices (1+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  Wreck Smurfy

                  Everyone in the guard is 18 or about to be.

                  The get a VERY detailed contract.

                  If you sign without reading, oh well.

                  Remember, the "rules" you speak of were self imposed.  No where in their individual contracts did anyone receive a guarantee not to be deployed.

                  Reserve Component and Guard members received the same pay as their active peers and in some cases MORE as compensation for loss of other income.

                  No, anyone who had illusions about not being called up was not paying attention.  We called up for Desert Storm, Haiti, Somalia, Northern Watch, Southern Watch, Bosnia, Kosovo, Siani, etc from 1990-2001.  September 11th callups should not have surprised anyone. What happened was they all thougt "this too shall pass" and I can go back to getting my check for going to drill. When that didn't happen,they cried foul.

                  Is this the majority of RC members.  Heck no. Most I have worked with have been outstanding and see being called up as part of what they signed up for.  Even the ones I thought got a raw deal were quick to say they had more years not deployed than deployed so what ever.  Its the people who joined to get over on the system.  To get paid and never produce.  It is a very small minority but they are very vocal.  I have no time for them.

                  It is well that war is so terrible -- lest we should grow too fond of it. Robert E. Lee

                  by ksuwildkat on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 10:20:53 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  What should they have known? (8+ / 0-)

                Bush is a liar? Their govt was going to screw them over?

                How much money do you think they make? Cuz it's not much, and you have to put in an awful lot of time before you can retire and get that pension.

                Yes, they know they can be called up. But NONE of them signed up to be sent to a war of choice, untrained and ill-equipped, and to be sent back again and again, without the downtime they were PROMISED.

                They signed up to help in disasters, emergencies, and in cases of war or DIRE THREAT to the US.

                Iraq is NONE of them. And it never was. Except the disaster part. It's certainly that.

              •  Paid for years (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                greenearth

                It's not that much money, and it isn't like they don't have to attend drill every  month. And they aren't (or weren't) getting extra benies, BAH, etc.

          •  WTF stuff are taking? (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            greenearth, dolphin777

            You must share or the rest of us will never be able to speak with you about anything!

            "People die. Strategies fail. Blame is laid. And we, as a nation, are made to look like assholes." - Brandon Friedman

            by Militarytracy on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 09:39:14 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Many mahalo, wildcat for that quote from (0+ / 0-)

            Gen. Lee, which should be seen frequently- as a stark reminder!

            The last sentence of your first paragraph certainly is succinct!

            I watched, as a child, different war(s) take their toll on my parents' marriage: I commiserate with your wife. Your children as well are, no doubt, paying a hidden price!

            The emotional and social costs of war stretch into the far future, and IMHO are incalculable!!

            Aloha . . .

        •  right... because we are trying to occupy.... (5+ / 0-)

          give me one quote where any of those guys say that our military, if given the proper amount of training time, can build a democracy in the midst of a sectarian civil war.  

        •  also please include... (5+ / 0-)

          where those generals you mention argue that our military is a nation building and occupying force and that given proper training our forces will be able to make a democracy out of Iraq.  Because I would be amazed if any of them are dumb enough to say that....

          •  General William Looney (6+ / 0-)

            He was Commander, Aeronautical Systems Center, Air Force Materiel Command, Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, Ohio (2003-2005). In 2005, he assumed the command of the Education and Training Command, Randolph AFB, Texas.

            Looney quote:

            "If they turn on their radars we're going to blow up their goddamn SAMs [surface-to- air missiles]. They know we own their country. We own their airspace...We dictate the way they live and talk. And that’s what’s great about America right now. It’s a good thing, especially when there’s a lot of oil out there we need."

               * Comments about the bombing of Iraq in the late 1990s, which he directed. Interview Washington Post (August 30, 1999)

            Our... constitutional heritage rebels at the thought of giving government the power to control men's minds. Thurgood Marshall

            by bronte17 on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 07:25:50 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  that was not... (0+ / 0-)

              one of the generals he mentioned so this is all pointless.  I want a Wes Clark quote saying that if our troops just had more training and equipment that they could suceed in democracy building.  That quote you gave me doesnt even say that...

              •  Oh, so you're trying to weasel out of your (2+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                greenearth, Wreck Smurfy

                viewpoint because Wes Clark didn't say it... or one of those handful of names that teacherken mentioned.

                I gave you a friggin' general who did say that we were there to own Iraq.

                You are taking teacherken's diary OT by your hyper-criticalness.

                Our... constitutional heritage rebels at the thought of giving government the power to control men's minds. Thurgood Marshall

                by bronte17 on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 08:34:10 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  leave it be - I haven't complained (1+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  greenearth

                  and it is fine that there is some difference of opinion - as long as it is expressed civilly we all learn.

                  do we still have a Republic and a Constitution if our elected officials will not stand up for them on our behalf?

                  by teacherken on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 08:36:08 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Fine and my apologies for the anger, but (1+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    greenearth

                    really, this issue of the demise of "nation building" and the slander against it is just too much.

                    Perhaps I need to do a diary.

                    Best to you, ken.

                    Our... constitutional heritage rebels at the thought of giving government the power to control men's minds. Thurgood Marshall

                    by bronte17 on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 08:46:36 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

            •  I'll say this -- he's appropriately named. (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              greenearth, StrayCat

              That is a looney quote.

              I suppose you are bound to have a mad dog or two in a military, but my God! you've gotta have someone sane hanging on tight to the leash.

              Folly is fractal: the closer you look at it, the more of it there is.

              by Canadian Reader on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 09:13:37 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  If this is NOT snark, I really have a (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              bronte17

              problem with his name: Gen. LOONEY!!

              Aloha . . .

            •  Jeez, (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              bronte17, greenearth

              "General William Looney."  Stanley Kubrick couldn't have come up with a better name.

              "America did not invent human rights. In a very real sense, it is the other way around. Human rights invented America." -Jimmy Carter

              by Bulldawg on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 02:24:04 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  Whoo Boy (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        greenearth

        did you choke on all those Republican talking points yet Hind2?

        Waaay B Hind2

        The Number of the Beast 78-22

        by Deep Dark on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 06:35:50 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  what? (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Proud SW FL Lib

          Republicans are saying that Iraq was always unwinnable because our military cannot occupy a country and build a democracy out of a several hundred year old sectarian violence?

          Are you really that dense that anything other than lock step agreement equals a republican talking point.  Fuck if anything I am further out of line than the person that wrote this diary.  I am saying that no matter how much training you give them, no matter how much equipment you give them, no matter how much time off you give them.... there is no fucking way our military can win this thing.

          Saying that our military is broken because we cannot build a democracy out of a sectarian civil war is not a fucking republican talking point.  Or if it is please show where it has been used.  Please show me ONE fucking example of it being used.  

          Its akin to saying my boat is broken because it cant fly.  The army is not a nation building force.  

          •  Choke on your propaganda -have you forgotten the (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            greenearth

            purple fingers?  mister bush even had some of those waving at his SOTU.

            Here you go. In dubya's own words:

            In Iraq, the Coalition Provisional Authority and the Iraqi Governing Council are also working together to build a democracy -- and after three decades of tyranny, this work is not easy. The former dictator ruled by terror and treachery, and left deeply ingrained habits of fear and distrust. Remnants of his regime, joined by foreign terrorists, continue their battle against order and against civilization. Our coalition is responding to recent attacks with precision raids, guided by intelligence provided by the Iraqis, themselves. And we're working closely with Iraqi citizens as they prepare a constitution, as they move toward free elections and take increasing responsibility for their own affairs. As in the defense of Greece in 1947, and later in the Berlin Airlift, the strength and will of free peoples are now being tested before a watching world. And we will meet this test. (Applause.)

            Securing democracy in Iraq is the work of many hands. American and coalition forces are sacrificing for the peace of Iraq and for the security of free nations. Aid workers from many countries are facing danger to help the Iraqi people. The National Endowment for Democracy is promoting women's rights, and training Iraqi journalists, and teaching the skills of political participation. Iraqis, themselves -- police and borders guards and local officials -- are joining in the work and they are sharing in the sacrifice.

            This is a massive and difficult undertaking -- it is worth our effort, it is worth our sacrifice, because we know the stakes. The failure of Iraqi democracy would embolden terrorists around the world, increase dangers to the American people, and extinguish the hopes of millions in the region. Iraqi democracy will succeed -- and that success will send forth the news, from Damascus to Teheran -- that freedom can be the future of every nation. (Applause.) The establishment of a free Iraq at the heart of the Middle East will be a watershed event in the global democratic revolution. (Applause.)

            Our... constitutional heritage rebels at the thought of giving government the power to control men's minds. Thurgood Marshall

            by bronte17 on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 07:32:29 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  seriously what the fuck are you talking about? (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              jds1978, LI Mike

              I am saying this.  I will number it because I assume you are not following since your last response makes no sense.

              1.  There is no amount of training that our military can undergo to make them sucessful at building a democracy out of Iraq
              1.  Saying that our Army is broken is saying that the Army is suppose to be a democracy building force and one that can do so in the midst of a sectarian civil war

              Please please please tell me what Republican is repeating those words?  What I am saying is that you cant use a baseball bat to putt and then say the bat is broken when it doesnt work as well.  Our military should not be in Iraq nor should it have ever been there.  They are not suppose to build democracies.

              So please explain what the fuck you are talking about with purple fingers and why you are acccusing me of being a republican.  

              •  that's very far from what I and others are saying (5+ / 0-)

                we are saying that the regular army is not by the Army's own standards combat ready for all units.  Please go read the entire piece by Korb to see to what the idea of brken represents.  

                This is a point that has also been warned about by currently serving officers, with their names on their statements.

                Forget the issue of attempting to establish a civil settlement in Iraq.   Ever were all the troops pulled out of Iraq ASAP we would still lack the capability to properly respond with ground forces to a crises elsewhere.

                We have sailors being given less than infantry basic training, issued firearms and being asked to perform guard duty and in some cases even patrols in what is a very hostile situation.  That we have to resort to that is an indication of the current brokenness.

                We can not sustain according to Army doctrine the rate of deployment we are currently doing, even with reserve and guard units, calling up IRR, Stop Loss, lowering recruiting standards, raising enlistment ages ...   now apparently we are going to extend additional combat brigades for 3-4 months in theater.

                If that is not broken, then I do not know what is.  Nor do many of the professional military who have commented on this.

                do we still have a Republic and a Constitution if our elected officials will not stand up for them on our behalf?

                by teacherken on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 08:41:42 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Kind of late of in the day (2+ / 0-)

                to come to this distinction.

                It was explained to bush and the military knew the horrible odds before this invasion was launched. They knew it. Many many people knew that the bush invasion and occupation of Iraq was wrong.

                It has nothing to do with nation building. Nothing.

                That is one place where the bush cabal have succeeded tremendously in this fiasco called the invasion of Iraq. People now think that "nation building" is not beneficial and cannot be accomplished through peaceful means.

                Our... constitutional heritage rebels at the thought of giving government the power to control men's minds. Thurgood Marshall

                by bronte17 on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 08:42:41 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

      •  How precisely do you define (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        greenearth

        "no longer on the map?"   Nuke the country?  Bomb it all to hell -more that we have already done?

        Even after all that -you can pound the ground down, but only so far. You can "distribute" DU (depleted uranium) with all the bombs in your arsenal, and it will linger in Iraq for thousands of years...but you cannot completely destroy the geographic area.

        So, this begs the question of why?  Why would you treat humans like this?  You will only become intensely hated by others. Ruling by Fear is not a redeeming attribute.

        And what cave have you been living in that you can say the US forces are not an occupying force?

        Our... constitutional heritage rebels at the thought of giving government the power to control men's minds. Thurgood Marshall

        by bronte17 on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 07:19:58 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  dude... (0+ / 0-)

          you really have a hard time with the way I write.  What I am saying is that our Army is not a fucking occupying force that builds democracies.  I could give a fuck what Bush says our Army is.  It is NOT a nation building team!!  So to say that it is broken because it cannot build a democracy out of Iraq or even stabalize a sectarian civil war is silly and nonsense.  

          You realize that by arguing with me you are in turn agreeing with Bush that our Army is fit to build democracies?

          •  First of all, it's dudette for your labels (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            greenearth

            Second, your own words were:
            If our one and only goal was to conquer and destroy Iraq would no longer be on the map...
            Our Army is not weak or on the breaking point or anything... they are not an occupying force in a sectarian civil war.  

            I've covered your quote about wiping Iraq off the map.

            The Army is severely weakened at this point in time. Now, the Air Force is another matter. This occupation of Iraq hasn't been on their back. For you to argue otherwise is beyond the pale.

            And, the US is occupying Iraq in a sectarian civil war.

            Our... constitutional heritage rebels at the thought of giving government the power to control men's minds. Thurgood Marshall

            by bronte17 on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 08:30:29 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  An interesting situation (26+ / 0-)

    Recent graduates of the US Military Academy at West Point are choosing to leave active duty at the highest rate in more than three decades, a sign to many military specialists that repeated tours in Iraq are prematurely driving out some of the Army's top young officers.

    One day, I was in a room when four lieutenants in my battalion were copying templates for a resignation packet from one another.  It was an interesting  example of what you have described.

    VetVoice.com, The Voice of America's 21st Century Patriots.

    by RockRichard on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 04:34:04 AM PDT

  •  What really pisses me off. (23+ / 0-)

    Bush trying to pass off the effects of his mismanagement of the US military onto the new Democratic Congress. The lengthened deployments, the shortened times between deployments ect, are a result of the Democrats not giving him another "blank check" to continue his failed policies in Iraq. (There doesn't seem to be a transcript up yet but this was in a speech he made yesterday to the American Legion. Olberman commnented on it on Countdown last night.)

    CHRISTIAN, n. One who believes that the New Testament is a divinely inspired book admirably suited to the spiritual needs of his neighbor. A. Bierce

    by irate on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 04:34:50 AM PDT

  •  many have been right on this war (23+ / 0-)

    whether it was General Shinseki saying we were going in with far too few troops, or Jim Webb and Tony Zinni saying what a tragic mistake we were making.

    The administration is approaching this like somone who belongs in Gambler's Anonymous -  after every loss they keep doubling down on the same bad spin of the wheel.

    The Army is broken, the Guard is almost destroyed, and the Marine Corps is starting to be broken.  To get sufficient bodies into theater, we are allowing 42 year olds to enlist, we are recruiting people with criminal records and without high school diplomas, we are recruiting non-citizens who are not even in the US when they sign up, we are sending back people with physical injuries, we are refusing to acknowledge or support those with PTSD so that we can send them back.  And then we wonder about atrocities, suicides, and the like.

    do we still have a Republic and a Constitution if our elected officials will not stand up for them on our behalf?

    by teacherken on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 04:35:21 AM PDT

    •  Criminal backgrounds (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      greenearth, phonegery, SMWalt

      While much of what you write above is true, teacherken, I feel that I have to speak out about the whole "criminal record" meme that has been so prominent in the press.

      If you have ever been charged (not just convicted) with a felony or more than a few misdemeanors such as underage drinking, shoplifting, vandalism, etc.(how many depends on the branch of service), the military requires you to get a moral waiver. The majority of these waivers are for juvenile criminal charges, many of which were dismissed charges with sealed records that civilian employers do not have access to.

      I know a young man who is in the military who was charged with unauthorized use of a motor vehicle in the state of VA when he was 12 freaking years old for sleeping in an unlocked car when he ran away from home. In VA, this is a FELONY. He wrote a letter of apology to the car owner and did community service; the charges were dismissed and his record expunged. He still was required to get the highest level of waiver to join the military since the Air Force goes by state statutes of what is a felony charge. This was not an easy process, despite a sterling academic record, and the only reason he got it was a high ASVAB, good letters of reference and a recruiter who liked him.

      The vast majority of waivers the military grants are for situations like the one this young man had - a juvenile charge which was later dismissed - many of these expunged criminal charges are for things you and I would have been scolded by the cops for a few decades ago. It ticks me off that these young people are unfairly portrayed as criminals when they are nothing of the sort.

      •  a couple of comments (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        greenearth, SMWalt
        1. it is still a lowering of preexisting standards.  EVen when I enlisted in 1965 they had to check juvenile records (Ididn't have one)
        1. a juvenile drug record at this point is sufficient under federal law to PERMANENTLY bar you from, federal benifits such as student loans
        1. a juvenile sexual offense can also get you permanently marked as a sex offender

        so, like many other things, there is an inconsistency.

        Should juvenile records be totally expunged for all purposes?  Probably, but then prosecutors are increasingly prosecuting juveniles as adults to prove how tought they (the prosecutors) are, so it might not matter anyhow.

        do we still have a Republic and a Constitution if our elected officials will not stand up for them on our behalf?

        by teacherken on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 01:59:01 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I agree with all of your points (0+ / 0-)

          However, my larger point was that more and more juveniles are being criminally charged for things that would have gotten them a stern warning from the police in the generation that enlisted in the 60's when you served. As a result, less and less young people are eligible for military service and require waivers to get in.

          Add to that the number of young people that have been on meds for ADD (used to be an automatic disqualification but is now a possible medical waiver because of the skyrocketing #'s medicated for ADD) and the number of young people seriously overweight (not waiverable) and you've got a serious problem with  a reduction in # of potential enlistees in the last few decades - regardless of the Iraq war. And now these young people with moral or medical waivers are unfairly labeled "criminals" or the "bottom of the barrel" by those that want to make a larger point.

          And yes, the Army is always looking for warm bodies, but both the Air Force and Navy are reducing the numbers of their troops - drastically at the mid-NCO ranks - many people who want to re-enlist are not able to.

  •  The backbone of any army (15+ / 0-)

    Are the senior and career NCO's. But almost as important are the junior grade officers. The NCO's transmit the culture of the army and the morale and the esprit and continuity. Lieutenants are the closest any common grunt gets to seeing a piece of higher command's strategy and command in action. For the common grunt the Lieutenat IS the officer.

    Lieutenants are also the ones who are called on most  to hold the messy end of the stick. In every modern war that I've heard about, platoon and company leaders have the highest mortality rates.

    Your diary points out just how bad things have gotten.

    If the US army had less dicipline and commitment, as in other countries I could name, there may well have been dire consequences by now for the pResident.

    It is to weep.

    DFooK

    "Impeach the Cheerleader, save the world!"

    by deepfish on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 04:35:34 AM PDT

    •  You only need to glance at a list of casualti