Daily Kos

Book Review: Dan Gilgoff's "The Jesus Machine"

Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 10:01:58 AM PDT

The Jesus Machine
How James Dobson, Focus on the Family, and Evangelical America Are Winning the Culture War
By Dan Gilgoff
St. Martin’s Press
New York, 2007

"The average person in the establishment is not aware of what Dobson is saying to five or ten million people every week," said Richard Viguerie, the conservative activist who pioneered the use of direct mail for the Republican Party in the sixties and seventies. "That has served us beautifully."

The Jesus Machine is a tough read, my friends, for anyone in this country who believes in the separation of church and state. Tough, but absolutely necessary.

As a case study in patience, ingenuity, flexibility and political movement building, this book can’t be beat. The rough read part comes in every time you get jerked back to reality about what the Christian Right wants to impose on this country, and how deeply and uncompromisingly convinced its members are about the sacredness of the mission. Slamming back and forth between being repulsed by their vision for America and in awe of – and trying to learn from – their inarguably successful strategies makes for a difficult experience.

Dan Gilgoff, a senior editor at U.S. News & World Report, outlines the piece-by-piece construction of the Christian Right infrastructure, entering the story through recounting the rise of the powerful James Dobson and branching off to detail other parts of the movement. Dobson serves as a lodestone throughout, the soothing presence that reassures evangelicals that their move into political action is really a moral, God-driven mission and not truly partaking of dirty secular politics at all.

  • ::

And back when Dobson started his radio show in the late 1970’s, it certainly seemed an apolitical venture. Gilgoff points out that the turbulent 1960’s "gave the evangelical movement a culture to define itself against," and Dobson, a professor at UCLA with a strong Christian upbringing, early on tapped into the unease of listeners that "presented him with the opportunity to win their trust and to help instill in them an orthodox Christian worldview that rejected the reigning postmodernism." The founding of Focus on the Family by all accounts was not based on political calculation, but on the need Dobson identified in his largely female audience to find advice on child-rearing, straying spouses, addicted family members and all the other personal issues that suddenly seemed destabilized by the re-examination of cultural roles. Indeed, the radio host appears to have resisted – and still does – any inference that Focus on the Family is primarily a political machine, pointing to the bulk of its active correspondence with listeners still addressing the private realm of personal conduct, private adversity and Bible-based spiritual clarification.

As the popularity of his radio show exploded, along with sidelines of books and videos, he quickly integrated successful business advisors into his network and hired "correspondents" who helped Focus on the Family retain its customized, personal approach to listeners who contacted the organization for counsel. His insistence on quick response to those seeking advice led to an archiving of his broadcasts and numerous writings so that listeners who called or wrote in were able to have their problems addressed by Focus counselors who could access an immediate database on Dobson’s views. This reliance on amassing data extended to compiling of extremely valuable contact information on the listeners themselves, and it wouldn’t take long for more politically motivated religious leaders on the Christian Right to eye both the model and the data with envy.

While Dobson continued to struggle to maintain a scarcity value in the fledgling Christian Right political market – rarely giving interviews, rarely endorsing candidates or causes – other more politically ambitious leaders began to amass their own constituencies and causes. Jerry Falwell, Ralph Reed, Paul Weyrich and others began building a nuts-and-bolts parallel movement alongside Focus on the Family that urged evangelicals to end their retreat from public life and begin to demand that their views be reflected in issues and candidates in the public square. Much of this transformational movement from public to private rested on tapping into evangelicals’ retroactive anger at Roe v. Wade and court rulings regarding school prayer.

Gilgoff uses three main issues to tell the story of movement building: the Supreme Court nomination of John Roberts, the agitation to pass a constitutional amendment banning gay marriage and the Terry Schiavo affair. The mobilization of the Christian right base that crystallized around these all-out policy pushes are instructive in their glimpse of the tightrope the leaders walked when trying to satisfy purists and pragmatists. The frustration of the politically savvy often ran head-first into the all-or-nothing-at-all ideologues, particularly as the coordinating groups struggled with different approaches to gay marriage bans. Indeed, reading some of Gilgoff’s observations – and stripping them of the issue itself to look clearly at the tussles over strategy -- leaves one thinking of recent arguments among Democrats about where to draw the line with the Republican Party over various issues.

Consider this passage, which seems ripped right out of the dialogue we often have right here at Daily Kos about the value of taking a stand even if victory is unlikely:

"Leadership at that time [1998 mid-terms] was interested in winning, and if you didn’t win, they didn’t want to have the battle," said Coburn, who served in the House until 2000 and was elected to the Senate in 2004. "I had a different philosophy: that you don’t always have to win, but you can’t not fight for what you believe. You look through history and you see people who stood the high moral ground by continuing to lose until the public was awakened to the truth of what they were saying. The battle [in 1998] was not can you win or not; it was about whether or not the Republicans were fighting. Fighting and losing has value. Not fighting has no value."

One of the undoubted benefits to the Christian Right of this strategy has been how it has spoken directly to the evangelical base and integrated dormant members into the political sphere – even when success is elusive. Still, there is a discernable tension between those who now consider themselves inside the political system (like Ralph Reed and Paul Weyrich) and those who stand outside, demanding results.

But as evangelicals have risen to the upper echelons of the government, many have grown frustrated with what they consider the outsized expectations of Christian Right leaders....Some inside-the-beltway social conservatives complain that the Christian Right has come to see Washington as the solution to social problems, just as big-government liberals do.... "Politics follows culture, not the reverse," said Paul Weyrich.

Contradictions within movements are nothing new on the political scene, but Gilgoff really mines the ins-and-outs of this particular one in an objective fashion, separating the ideology from the method, in a way that makes The Jesus Machine about much, much more than simply Dobson, Focus on the Family or the politicization of the evangelical movement. He looks at some of the top-down models that worked and those that failed. He examines the creation of the Family Research Council and its Family Policy Councils at the state level that helped to distance Dobson from the day-to-day political mechanics, and the issues for which the bottom-up organizing were most effective. He looks at the rivalry and chase for the same donor dollars between the overlapping groups and at the ways the competition was resolved – or not – between them.

It’s well worth the effort as a reader to try and remove the religious content angle from most of the information on offer in this book and settle into an analytical frame of mind. There is much to be learned and even more to be considered and possibly adapted to our own needs, from use of "movement language" and how it can alienate outsiders, to how to activate an base that feels powerless. Aside from its "how to" value, it’s solid as a historical guide and reference book for a Who’s Who of the Christian Right movement. Gilgoff has done a masterful job here of expanding knowledge, not just in documenting the rise of a specific constituency, but in providing an outline of movement-building in general.

Tags: books, Dan Gilgoff, James Dobson, Focus on the Family, religion (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 162 comments

  •  small point - Dobson NOT an MD - (19+ / 0-)

    yes, he did teach at a medical school, but his doctorate is in child development from Southern Cal.  He can legitimately call himself "Doctor" but he is not a medical doctor.  You might want to fix that part of diary.

    do we still have a Republic and a Constitution if our elected officials will not stand up for them on our behalf?

    by teacherken on Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 10:00:17 AM PDT

  •  Fundy Christians...Never Has A Group (7+ / 0-)

    with such power and influence cried out so hypocritically about "persecution" and "denial of freedom..."

    They can all pound sand...amen...

    Human Rights are not negotiable

    by TheManWithNoPoint on Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 10:00:52 AM PDT

    •  you could not be more right (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      TheManWithNoPoint

      about the amazing depth of their hypocrisy

      "We struck down evil with the mighty sword of teamwork and the hammer of not bickering!" - The Shoveler

      by Pandoras Box on Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 10:22:51 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  You can't demand relief (4+ / 0-)

      unless you've first defined yourself as a victim.

      The first change I'd like to see is ending the taboo of speaking out against religion...any and all religion.  Why shouldn't we have an equal and opposing voice?

      Secondly, I think proselytization should be outlawed.  I can think of nothing more arrogant than telling someone their beliefs (or lack thereof) are wrong.

      (-7.75, -7.69) No matter how cynical I get, I just can't keep up - Lily Tomlin

      by john07801 on Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 12:03:55 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Playing the Victim Card. (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Neon Mama

        You can't demand relief
        unless you've first defined yourself as a victim.

        The first change I'd like to see is ending the taboo of speaking out against religion...any and all religion.  Why shouldn't we have an equal and opposing voice?

        Let's imagine what the Organizedly Religious would encounter if they were on an equal footing with their opponents:

        On School Prayer, they'd have to answer the question: "Why can't you take the responsibility to ensure that your children say their daily prayers? It only takes a minute or so; and it can be YOUR prayers, not a generic prayer to some generic god led by a bureaucrat who has to answer to all different religions."

        On vouchers: "There are students who are slow but not so retarded as to need Special Education. There are students who are disruptive but not so delinquent as to involve the juvenile authorities. Public schools have to take them. If parochial schools want to receive tax dollars, shouldn't they face the same burden that public schools do?"

        On Gay Rights: "Why is homophobia so important to you that you would hang it like an albatross around the Bible's neck? If the parable of the Good Samaritan only teaches about anti-Samaritan prejudice, is Jesus Christ for all time? Unless you can say that the Pharisees could not find in what Scripture they thumped, any passages that aren't many degrees more obscure; then why would you need to have spelled out each century's Samaritan? If Jesus did say, "20th Century, you're to work on racism, and 21st, homophobia," we would probably have read ahead and be on the 60th Century's work by now.

        When they claim to be oppressed, it's like a Buick owner complaining about the system's unfairness that he can't afford a Cadillac.

        I'm not asking you to take the country back, I'm asking you to take it forward-Van Jones.

        by Judge Moonbox on Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 06:34:05 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  George Washington says it best (11+ / 0-)

    see my tag line below... i use it in my small effort to smash myth that constitution/country is based on judeo/christian religion. hooey... baloney and worse.

    "Well we don't rent pigs and I figure it's better to say it right out front because a man that does like to rent pigs is... he's hard to stop" Gus McCrae

    by pfiore8 on Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 10:01:08 AM PDT

    •  What did Washington know about the (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Naniboujou

      founding of this Good Christian Nation?

      John McCain - Fifty-four Forty or Fight!

      by kitebro on Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 10:05:47 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Jesus said it just as well... (8+ / 0-)

      "Render unto God that which is God's, and render unto Caesar, that which is Caesar's." I can't think of a better statement defining separation of church and state, can you?? Maybe someone should point this out to Dobson and Friends. Jesus supported religion separate from the state, why don't they????

      What happens when Bush takes Viagra? he gets taller. Robin Williams

      by Demfem on Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 10:25:41 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Everytime I hear about... (1+ / 0-)

        ..mega churches with little mini-malls and stores and stuff I think of that passage.

        doesn't strike them as the least bit hypocritical.

        You are entitled to express your opinion. But you are NOT entitled to agreement.

        by DawnG on Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 10:30:24 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        boofdah, Autarkh, Judge Moonbox

        That was actually Jesus' commandment that you must pay your taxes. Funny how the Fundies never quote that one.

        •  It was in response to a person trying to get (6+ / 0-)

          Jesus to say he was against the state, ie the Romans, and he basically said that what he was doing, preaching religion, had nothing to do with the state. At least, that was my take on it. And the interpretation put on it by most of the reasonable clerics I have met and talked with over the years.

          I just think it's funny that the things that Jesus decried and pointed out as sinful and leading to sin are the very same things that most of the right wing seems to have in their career and political sights. They all want to be Pharisees, and we all know what Jesus thought of them. :D

          What happens when Bush takes Viagra? he gets taller. Robin Williams

          by Demfem on Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 11:18:57 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Actually, it is even worse for the fundies. (4+ / 0-)

          The preachers who were in bed with the occupation government of Romans were trying to trap Jesus into making anti-government statements in public.
             Their motivation was to let occupiers get rid of this hippie troublemaker who was railing constantly AGAINST the hypocrisy of church leaders, priests, public piety, money policies including ripping off donors with money changers right on site. Basically he was totally AGAINST organized religion.
             Most Roman colonies demanded Caesar worship. So the short statement separated worship and state--->
          and left the "official church" totally OUT. No "render unto temple." No "tithe." Worship God without middleman.  The money -- with Caesar's picture on it was his. The worship -- was God's.
             Are we surprized they never give THAT sermon?  

          De fund + de bunk = de EXIT--->>>>>

          by Neon Mama on Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 11:27:30 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Roman Caesar Worship (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            boofdah

            The Jews were specifically excluded from this requirement.  Romans thought the Jews darn near athiest  ("What? only one god!?" is what they thought), but they respected it as an ancient religion with a thousand years or more of history.  Jews did not have to worship Caesar, as long as they 'offered prayers for his continued health'  Rome was fine with it.

            We have no desire to offend you -- unless you are a twit!

            by ScrewySquirrel on Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 12:03:23 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I know they had a partial dispensation for (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Judge Moonbox

              a long time. But to real hard headed purists, forced prayer of any kind would be anathema-- even just for his health, if only because he was someone else's god. "No other God." Jews were not all of a kind even at that time. Trying to think of a modern hypothetical ---> maybe public US prayers opening government meetings ---> cleric loses any pretense at non-sectarian label by concluding "in Jesus' name we pray."
                 Wouldn't many Muslims, Atheists, Deists, Jews, etc. have a problem with this common forced inclusion?  

              De fund + de bunk = de EXIT--->>>>>

              by Neon Mama on Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 01:32:04 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  The prayers that the Jews would have (0+ / 0-)

                offered for Caesar would have been for the health of the person, not the god. The Romans figured that if the Jews were praying for Caesar, they were less likely to rebel against him, being a rather fiercely religious people. By that I mean that the Jews took their religion very very seriously, and would not dishonor their temple by plotting against someone who had been prayed for by the rabbi and the congregants there. When Caligula decided that he would be worshipped by the Jews, or else, his advisers made up a rather weird and strange ritual, involving the statue of an ass which was pelted with filth during the ceremony. And since it was the custom in the Empire to allow the local religions to worship Caesar following their own rituals, Caligula was persuaded that the Jews' "ritual" was not appropriate for such a god as himself.

                What happens when Bush takes Viagra? he gets taller. Robin Williams

                by Demfem on Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 06:36:33 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  What little I know about religion (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            boofdah

            Worship God without middleman.

            I learned in a class on Prostestant Reformation.  Martin Luther used a similar passage ("The just shall live by faith.") as his assurance that breaking away from the Catholic church was proper.  Of course, it was viewed as heresy.

            (This might be simplistic but I only took one course and it was many years ago.)

            (-7.75, -7.69) No matter how cynical I get, I just can't keep up - Lily Tomlin

            by john07801 on Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 12:12:14 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  It mean both (0+ / 0-)

          amen

          . If HYPOCRICY stank you cold not get with in a mile of a Republican.

          by roxnev on Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 11:55:01 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  But, but... Caesar likes marinara too. (0+ / 0-)

        "The opposite of a triviality is plainly false; the opposite of a great truth is another great truth." - Niels Bohr

        by Autarkh on Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 11:16:15 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Washington didn't say it -- (5+ / 0-)

      "The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion"

      is Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli, approved by Pres. John Adams and ratified by the Senate in 1797.

      The treaty was basically an agreement by the Barbary States ... (pirates some would say) ... allies of the Ottoman Empire ... to allow American vessles and trade free access in the Mediterranian  -- while continuing to take,  French and English ships, holding their passengers for ransom, and selling their crews into slavery.  

      What makes the story REALLY interesting, is that Article 11 was never included in the Arabic copy of the treaty with the Pasha of Algeria signed. It appears only in the English version, approved by Adams and ratified by the Senate.

      As far as the Barbary States were concerned they had been given as $40,000 bribe to leave American shipping alone.  The Adams Administration apparently siezed the opportunity to make a point about religion in America.  

      •  On The Barbary States . . . (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Neon Mama, DanK Is Back

        Not that many people would worry about this, but . . .

        There is a tradition in the teaching of American history to treat European countries as "real" and let the other nations of the world blur into a background of undefined "foreignness." I believe it descends from colonial days, when "Christian" nations were considered legitimate and others were considered less so. You still find this on modern maps illustrating the last few centuries. For example, the age of European imperialism would appear far more dramatic if our maps of 19th Century Africa showed the boundaries of literally dozens of kingdoms, federations, and city states, some of them centuries old, being destroyed by the encroaching European invasion. Instead, they tend to be part of an amorphous white background gradually filled in by colonial boundaries.

        When the United States became independent, the "Barbary States" were four sovereign nations---Morocco, Algiers, Tunis, and Tripoli---centered on the cities and adjacent tillable land along the coast of Africa west of Egypt and north of the Sahara. Morocco had been under more or less the same government for more than five hundred years. The other three Barbary States gained their independence from the Ottoman Sultanate in 1705-1714.

        As a state of ancient lineage and sophisticated culture, Morocco did the United States the honor of recognizing its independence in 1777, the first foreign nation to do so.

        The "corsairs" operating from North African ports had been raiding European shores (as far north as Iceland!) and capturing European ships since the 8th Century. In the 18th Century, "piracy" was one of the Barbary States most important industries. The four governments ran what we would consider a protection racket, making treaties and taking tribute to leave one nation's ships alone, taking ships from other nations until they negotiated a treaty and some tribute, then repudiating the first treaty and starting the cycle of raid and negotiation all over again.

        The Treaty of Tripoli may have had some details we find peculiar nowadays, but was as legitimate an international agreement as any hers have signed in our history.

        Our current relations with Morocco are probably based on more current agreements, but it would be interesting and amusing to find out if the old agreements about not taking each other's ships as prizes and citizens as hostages are still legally binding.  

      •  Beat Me to It (0+ / 0-)

        The line is commonly attributed to Washington, and he was in office when the treaty negotiations started. but Adams was president when the treaty was signed and ratified.

        There seems to be a general historians' consensus that Joel Barlow, who negotiated the treaty and translated it from (and to) Arabic, added the wording. But I don't know when this was done - whether Washington or Adams was president at the time.

        There is very little in the way of Washington's writings that shed any light on his religious views, to the extent that he had any (he was not known to take communion, for example, though Martha regularly did). Here is a quote that might do well for a sig line:

        The Citizens of the United States of America have a right to applaud themselves for having given to mankind examples of an enlarged and liberal policy: a policy worthy of imitation. All possess alike liberty of conscience and immunities of citizenship It is now no more that toleration is spoken of, as if it was by the indulgence of one class of people, that another enjoyed the exercise of their inherent natural rights. For happily the Government of the United States, which gives to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance requires only that they who live under its protection should demean themselves as good citizens, in giving it on all occasions their effectual support. (Letter to the Hebrew Congregation of Newport; emphasis added to show suggested part.)

        American foreign policy is NOT a Viagra substitute.

        by DanK Is Back on Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 07:18:32 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Washington didn't say it P2 (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Neon Mama

        I did some quick research online and found that this quote, as DanK said below, is commonly attributed to him. But the Treaty was written during his presidency and, having read a few bios of Washington, I have no trouble either believing he would have said it or have approved its addition to this document.

        The difficulty finding expressions of Washington's faith is no accident: he understood the Constitution, which he revered, was a secular document. There are any number of incidences where his actions gave life to the very new ideas in the Constitution. Avoiding linking his religious beliefs to it was another legacy he left all of us.

        "Well we don't rent pigs and I figure it's better to say it right out front because a man that does like to rent pigs is... he's hard to stop" Gus McCrae

        by pfiore8 on Sun Apr 15, 2007 at 02:45:27 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Thanks (0+ / 0-)

        I wanted to reply to you first, but somehow got DanK. But was in a hurry.

        Thanks for letting me know about this. I have been looking for Founding Father quotes online as sort of "holy water" to splash on nuts trying to sell fiction about "intent" and found that quote on "Brainy Quote." Next time, I will vet the sources more carefully.

        But am sad he didn't say it... but glad it's documented anyway.

        thanks again.

        ps... Madison is surprising me... very interesting guy and lots of insightful things to say

        "Well we don't rent pigs and I figure it's better to say it right out front because a man that does like to rent pigs is... he's hard to stop" Gus McCrae

        by pfiore8 on Sun Apr 15, 2007 at 11:57:45 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  The U.S. needs its own "quiet revolution" (15+ / 0-)

    Just as Quebec threw off domination by the Catholic Church in the 1960s, it's time for this country to do the same to retrograde religions. Maybe the Millennium Generation will get the ball rolling.

    John McCain's Straight Talk Express runs on fossil fuels.

    by Dump Terry McAuliffe on Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 10:04:37 AM PDT

    •  frankly it's already happening (8+ / 0-)

      The youth of today are less interested in religion than ever before, from what I'm seeing.  It's a snowball effect.  They've had this bullshit shouted in their faces all their lives, and around the teenage years most kids decide that whatever their parents are FOR, they are AGAINST.

      My wife attends church.  I do not, never have.  She is, at 39, the youngest adult member.  Our daughter goes with her, our son does not.  And even she goes only because of the social scene, and the fact that her family makes up half the congregation.  That old-time religion is old people's religion as well, and it's dying on the vine.

      Whether the Dobsons of the world can tolerate it or not we are living in the middle of a society founded on science and rationality, and religion serves little to no social purpose.  It does not tie our communities together anymore -- even the MegaChurches don't do that.  They're too huge and impersonal to be truly community oriented.  It does not provide us with answers to difficult questions.  It does not give us a common cultural story.  The convulsion of Dr Dobson and his minions isn't a revolution, it's the death throes of organized religion.  By the end of my lifetime I expect it to be a vastly weakened, diminished force.

      "There he goes again! Who's laughing now, betch?" -- Jimmy Carter

      by slippytoad on Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 10:16:26 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I so hope you are right (5+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        hester, boofdah, KenM30, Neon Mama, dotster

        If we cannot elect this man, we don't deserve him.

        by lisastar on Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 10:19:48 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Not my experience at all. (6+ / 0-)

        We have had so many babies born in our church that finding Sunday School rooms for them in 3-5 years is going to be difficult in our space.

        Additionally, I see lots and lots of extremely religious young adults at the community college where I work.

        To say my fate is not tied to your fate is like saying, "Your end of the boat is sinking."--Hugh Downs

        by Dar Nirron on Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 10:28:43 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Never underestimate the power of (3+ / 0-)

          a committed mob on a mission, even if they are in the minority.

          "In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for; as for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican." - H. L. Mencken

          by SueDe on Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 10:57:14 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Same here (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          boofdah, KnowVox
          Our Sunday school has more than doubled in size in the last six years. I see lots of young people getting involved with their churches, and not fundie churches either (Mine certainly isn't.)

          We're retiring Steve LaTourette (R-Family Values for You But Not for Me) and sending Judge Bill O'Neill to Congress from Ohio-14: http://www.oneill08.com/

          by anastasia p on Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 11:16:48 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  If they aren't fundie churches maybe there's hope (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            4jkb4ia, Judge Moonbox

            There seems to be a struggle between the fundie megachurches and the "mainline" churches in terms of recruiting new members. At first, attendance in mainline churches was dwindling, but I think we're seeing a change and an increase in mainline attendance, and I hope that trend continues.

            More moderate-to-liberal Christians tend to go for the mainline churches out of a need for something greater to strive for, rather than banning gay marriage or abortion. Progressive, moderate, and even some conservative Christians are becoming turned off by the hateful messages that the Fundie preachers advocate, and instead seek a commitment to Christ through acts of love, generosity, and kindness to your fellow human beings.

            If the Christian Coalition had been smart, it would've embraced the Rev. Joel Hunter's call for broadening the Coalition's message beyond the "hot-button" social issues and extended its focus on the genocide in Darfur, domestic and world poverty, fighting AIDS in Africa, the environment, and other social-justice causes. Instead, they blew him off and missed their chance at wooing the middle-of-the-road Christians who really ARE concerned with other things in the world besides Terri Schiavo's feeding tube.

            That failing to, as SusanG points out in her book review, adapt and diversify to the ever-changing culture in America and in Christianity could be the Religious Wrong's gravest mistake. Here's hoping, anyway, because the Religious Wrong IMO is inherently poisonous not only to our country, but to the inherently beautiful religion of Christianity.

            Not even his fellow POW will vote for John McCain.

            by boofdah on Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 05:36:34 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Religion is not (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          boofdah, Neon Mama, Judge Moonbox

          Religion is not some thing you wear on your sleeve it is in your heart and to be a Christian you must not follow Pat Robinson, you must follow the teaching of Jesus Christ. Pat Robinson is a false prophet

          Deuteronomy 18: 19: I will personally deal with anyone who will not listen to the messages the prophet proclaims on my behalf. 20 But any prophet who claims to give a message from another god or who falsely claims to speak for me must die.' 21 You may wonder, `How will we know whether the prophecy is from the LORD or not?' 22 If the prophet predicts something in the Lord’s name and it does not happen, the LORD did not give the message. That prophet has spoken on his own and need not be feared.

          . If HYPOCRICY stank you cold not get with in a mile of a Republican.

          by roxnev on Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 12:18:06 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Does your wife attend an evangelical church? (5+ / 0-)

        When I was a young adult, the church elders were frantic because the "church was dying". The congregation was 90% over-60. That church was traditional Methodist. The fundies are driving them out of business too. Where they can't kill a church outright, they are instigating divisions in the church - the Episcopal Church for example.

        Barack Obama - I'll never see the threat of terrorism as a way to scare up votes, it's a threat that should rally this country against our common enemies

        by madgranny on Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 10:54:09 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  probably right (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          boofdah, Judge Moonbox

          The evangelists are spoiling religion for everyone else.  They are swelling like a tumor right now but I expect them to reach a point where they cannot consume anymore, and in fact start driving themselves so far out of the mainstream that they become a fricking cult.  That's essentially what right-wing evangelism is now.  Other posts above mention how their fundie churches are growing, but I do think there will be a point, by the end of my lifetime, where the brand has become so tarnished by nutjobs like Dobson that it becomes unpalatable to virtually everyone.

          "There he goes again! Who's laughing now, betch?" -- Jimmy Carter

          by slippytoad on Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 12:04:14 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I wish I saw that. (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            boofdah

            In the 60's I thought I saw a movement away from the intolerance of the fundie churches.  I figured by the time I was old people would be loving, enlightened and free.  Boy was I wrong.  But maybe it will come before you are old.

            -5.59-6.25 The straight talk express has 'lost its bearings'.

            by martik on Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 12:58:53 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  I sure hope you're right too---- (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            boofdah

            I get very concerned when I see the huge mega church near me----and I mean huge and gaudy---spread over 100 acres---keeps expanding---cars pour out of the 10-15 services each Sunday. It attracts many young people with the christian rock music and the giant multiple screen videos which is a big part of their services.  I know many people who have become ensnared---the Sunday services seem benign, but once they've got you, the fundamentalism rears its ugly head.  So many people become completely devoted and spend 5-6 nights there per week as part of various groups. And cars are just pouring in there at all hours of the day. It's an all encompassing business----offering   something for everybody, taking care of all of life's needs.  It is the mega mall with preschool classes and college scholarships to christian universities and christian stores and many recreational outlets---swimming, bowling, tennis etc. Everyone is associating with only rt-wing fundies like themselves.  It has become its own little town----condos next?  Like Ave Maris, Florida? I would definately call it a cult and it scares me.

          •  Religious Left doing fairly well. (0+ / 0-)

            The evangelists are spoiling religion for everyone else.  They are swelling like a tumor right now but I expect them to reach a point where they cannot consume anymore, and in fact start driving themselves so far out of the mainstream that they become a fricking cult.  That's essentially what right-wing evangelism is now.  Other posts above mention how their fundie churches are growing, but I do think there will be a point, by the end of my lifetime, where the brand has become so tarnished by nutjobs like Dobson that it becomes unpalatable to virtually everyone.

            The Religious Left has been doing better than the mainstream churches, much like the Netroots have been a more reliable source of political opinion than the MS media. My church, a downtown Unitarian Universalist church, has had pretty decent growth in recent years. We even have a well-attended Sunday School.

            I'm not asking you to take the country back, I'm asking you to take it forward-Van Jones.

            by Judge Moonbox on Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 06:45:28 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  Retrograde Religions (5+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      boofdah, SueDe, makeitstop, Autarkh, dotster

      That’s exactly what they are. They have little to do with the real thing as the rest of the world knows it. They’re uniquely american inventions in the fine tradition of the snake oil salesmen.

  •  What never ceases to amaze (11+ / 0-)

    is how religion has been left behind in all this. Atheists all, my brother, sister, and I can all quote these people's holy book (for which we have considerable respect) at these people because unlike them we have actually read it.

    They can quote Dobson and Falwell and Saint Ronald, but rarely the one real text of their own religion. As my fave sig line floating around here says, they aren't even wrong.

    What's so hard about Peace, Love, and Truth and Progress?

    by melvin on Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 10:14:01 AM PDT

    •  I am reminded of "no God before me" (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      boofdah

      and graven images.

      Barack Obama - I'll never see the threat of terrorism as a way to scare up votes, it's a threat that should rally this country against our common enemies

      by madgranny on Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 10:55:16 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •   Proved you are not Catholic. Their version (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        nauretok, madgranny, Judge Moonbox

        of "Ten" commandments edited those "graven images" right out.  Even many religiously well educated are not aware there is not just ONE set of TEN and even in Bible there are three versions which must be carefully arrange to make it come out as #10.
           Thank the Web. I didn't note it for most my life.   Find it fascinating in regard to WHICH ten would be POSTED if looneys get their way? And would that most certainly constitute "establishment??"

        De fund + de bunk = de EXIT--->>>>>

        by Neon Mama on Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 11:40:39 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  The Protestant 10. (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Neon Mama

          Proved you are not Catholic.
          of "Ten" commandments edited those "graven images" right out.  Even many religiously well educated are not aware there is not just ONE set of TEN and even in Bible there are three versions which must be carefully arrange to make it come out as #10.
            Thank the Web. I didn't note it for most my life.   Find it fascinating in regard to WHICH ten would be POSTED if looneys get their way? And would that most certainly constitute "establishment??"

          If that came to pass, it would be the Protestant version that would be posted. I noted an article in today's WaPo, saying that the NIH's chaplain service has been discriminating against priests and rabbis the past few years. Despite the Ecumenical Feelgoodism of the past few decades, there are still some sharp divisions between the churches; and the Right-wing Protestants are working it to their advantage.

          I'm not asking you to take the country back, I'm asking you to take it forward-Van Jones.

          by Judge Moonbox on Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 06:51:10 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Graven Images is in the original Hebrew (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Neon Mama

          Ex 20:4 says "lo ta-aseh lach pesel...." Pesel is generally translated as "graven image;" JPS translates it as "sculptured image."

          And there are, by some counts, as many as five versions of the Ten Commandments, so if the government wants to post one, it will have to choose which one, thus putting it in the position of arbitrating among the various religious views (Catholic, Protestant and Jewish) which version to use. Exactly what the Founding Fathers wanted to avoid - government dictating to religion.

          Of course, FotF and its fellow-travellers see it the other way around.

          American foreign policy is NOT a Viagra substitute.

          by DanK Is Back on Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 07:30:39 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  I've also noticed that when they (0+ / 0-)

      do quote the bible it's usually the old testament not the new. Just think of the difference if instead of pushing the ten commandments. If instead they  chose to push the beatitudes.

      "Fools rush where angels fear to tread. Oddly enough, fools have accomplished a great deal more than angels." -- Newtkeeper?

      by Wes Opinion on Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 11:16:55 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Well, who's fault is that? (0+ / 0-)

        "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."
        "And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail."
        " Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
        ; )

        Alito. Kennedy. Roberts. Scalia. Thomas.
        More important than ever: ERA NOW!

        by greeseyparrot on Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 01:04:59 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  beware (9+ / 0-)

    christians aren't the problem, it is the tyrants who use these people that are. Cheney, Rove, Dobson, etc etc are your typical run of the mill tyrants.

    The only reason I fear chritians is because they so easily allow false prophets to lead them to sinister deeds.  They were warned about this weren't they?

    Generals gathered in their masses Just like witches at black masses.. Evil minds that plot destruction Sorcerers of deaths construction..........

    by pissedpatriot on Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 10:21:45 AM PDT

    •  PP, David Kwuo (SIC) recent book unmasks (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      boofdah, madgranny, dotster

      insiders of Bu$hCo. for what they REALLY think of fundies!!

      Aloha . . .

      •  But his book has dissuaded him at all (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        boofdah, dotster

        from his converative political stance or calling for the remaking of the government into one based on Christian laws.  He's just upset that Bush didn't do a better job of being God's instrument.

        He's upset with the Bush administration, not the idea of theocratic government.

        "In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for; as for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican." - H. L. Mencken

        by SueDe on Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 11:05:10 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I've read Kuo's book; he actually dissuades other (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          4jkb4ia, Judge Moonbox

          Christians from getting into politics, at least for a year or two. He says that Christians should take a "fast" from politics so they can re-examine their faith and what it means to really BE--and behave like--a Christian.

          After reading his book, I didn't get the feeling at all that he was interested in helping to form a theocracy. Even when he was working at the Office of Faith-Based Initiatives, he was more like the Rev. Joel Hunter (see link for context in my post upthread) rather than James Dobson or Pat Robertson or any of those quacks. Yes, Kuo is conservative; but he also values social-justice concerns (Darfur genocide, national and international poverty, the AIDS crisis, etc.) as being part of the framework of Christian activism.

          As much as he feels strongly about a sense of Christian mission, Kuo is also very leery of misusing power in government (or any other context) and becoming corrupted by it in the process, so both the mission and the Christianity is lost forever. I've seen and listened to him in interviews; he uses the analogy of Frodo in the Lord of the Rings trilogy frequently--that anyone, even a very good person with benevolent intentions for using their newfound power for good--can become corrupted by that power, as Frodo was with The One Ring™. Definitely not, IMO, the sentiments of someone hell-bent on implementing an American theocracy.

          Not even his fellow POW will vote for John McCain.

          by boofdah on Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 05:47:49 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Problem (4+ / 0-)

      don't confuse mainstream Christians with the fundies. It's a mistake that is found too much around here. It's no difference than the fundies that I meet who can't believe I'm a Dem and a Christian.

      I'm too disgusted right now to think of a sig.

      by Ga6thDem on Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 11:06:58 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  amen (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      boofdah

      Pat Robinson is a false prophet

      Deuteronomy 18: 19: I will personally deal with anyone who will not listen to the messages the prophet proclaims on my behalf. 20 But any prophet who claims to give a message from another god or who falsely claims to speak for me must die.' 21 You may wonder, `How will we know whether the prophecy is from the LORD or not?' 22 If the prophet predicts something in the Lord’s name and it does not happen, the LORD did not give the message. That prophet has spoken on his own and need not be feared.

      . If HYPOCRICY stank you cold not get with in a mile of a Republican.

      by roxnev on Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 12:22:52 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Chinks in the Jesus Machine (15+ / 0-)

    I'm really looking forward to reading "The Jesus Machine" and very much appreciate the heads up/review here.

    I used to listen to "Focus on the Family" back in my born again days, in the 1980s, and they were mostly apolitical at that time.  What happened to Dobson/Focus is what happened to evangelical Christianity in general:  a slide into political action, made possible by 1) people who had a natural affinity for each others' causes, and 2) a huge desire to impose their vision on the rest of us.

    I am encouraged by the "Emerging Church" phenomenon in evangelical Christianity, which is a backlash against the right-wing, theocratic vision of Dobson and others.  I don't know if "The Jesus Machine" touches on this, but it gives me hope that the Christian' right's implosion is near, and it won't require a failure on the part of Jesus to show up in some desired apocalypse in the Middle East.

    •  I echo your hopefulness about the Emerging Church (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      alyosha, boofdah, Judge Moonbox

      while theologically conservative in some ways, they seem to be much more progressive on social issues, largely because they are younger and more comfortable with gay rights and women's rights.

      Politics is like driving. To go backward, put it in R. To go forward, put it in D.
      76 days until the '08 elections. Let's paint the country BLUE!

      by TrueBlueMajority on Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 10:43:36 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  emergent churches are wild cards (0+ / 0-)

      I don't know what to think. Anyone have direct experience with one?

      In a democracy, everyone is a politician. ~ Ehren Watada

      by Lefty Mama on Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 12:14:49 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Right church (0+ / 0-)

        Matthew 18: 20 For where two or three gather together because they are mine,[d] I am there among them."that don't sound like it has to be verry big.

        . If HYPOCRICY stank you cold not get with in a mile of a Republican.

        by roxnev on Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 12:30:46 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  How they got political. (0+ / 0-)

      I used to listen to "Focus on the Family" back in my born again days, in the 1980s, and they were mostly apolitical at that time.  What happened to Dobson/Focus is what happened to evangelical Christianity in general:  a slide into political action, made possible by 1) people who had a natural affinity for each others' causes, and 2) a huge desire to impose their vision on the rest of us.

      The emergence of the Religious Right in politics was the work of two Catholics, Paul Weyrich (Of that, I'm certain) and Richard Vigurie (I may be picking on him as a result of different issues), who saw the Fundamentalists as a new bloc of voters that the Repubs could reach for their own ends.

      I'm not asking you to take the country back, I'm asking you to take it forward-Van Jones.

      by Judge Moonbox on Sat Apr 14, 2007 at 06:57:23 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  For all their attempts to undermine separation (6+ / 0-)

    between Church and State, the Fundies have been very successful at keeping the media out of their backyard.  It's time SOMEBODY comes to the rescue to shine a light on their festering ghetto.  Nice diary.  

  •  My biggest client was Calvary Chapel (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Fabian, boofdah, LivesInAShoe, madgranny

    for many years, as I took care of their recording studio.

    Some very nice folks, but the things I heard scared me to death.

    And worse were the things I heard insiders and management folks say...agenda indeed!

  •  Amen SusanG. (5+ / 0-)

    After spending several months last year watching the Trinity Broadcasting Network and it's newer rival Daystar for hours on end, and seeing how they tie right into what I'm hearing on Hannity and Medved, while also making constant and effective moves into the African-American community, I welcome any exposure of the tactics, patience and power of the American Theocrats.

    "Yes dear. Conspiracy theories really do come true." (tuck, tuck)

    by tribalecho on