Daily Kos

How to respond to the veto threat

Mon Apr 02, 2007 at 06:48:30 PM PDT

Harry Reid shows how it's done:

Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid said Monday he will try to cut off funding for the Iraq war if President Bush rejects Congress' proposal to set a deadline for ending combat...
Bush has said several times he would veto the measure, and Republicans say they'll back him. On Monday, 154 House Republicans sent Bush a letter promising to stick with him in opposition to the legislation.

Mindful that they hold a shaky majority in Congress and that neither chamber has enough votes to override a presidential veto, Democrats are already thinking about the next step after Bush rejects their legislation.

Reid said Monday that if that happens, he will join forces with Sen. Russ Feingold, one of the party's most liberal members who has long called to end the war by denying funding for it. Reid and others have previously been reluctant to propose cutting funding out of fear it would leave troops in the lurch.

"Congress has a responsibility to end a war that is opposed by the American people and is undermining our national security," Feingold, D-Wis., said.

Reid said Monday he was willing to take the tougher tack in light of Bush's refusal to begin pulling out troops.

"If the president vetoes the supplemental appropriations bill and continues to resist changing course in Iraq, I will work to ensure this legislation receives a vote in the Senate in the next work period," Reid said in a statement.

Obama talks about "ratcheting up the pressure. The way to do that is to threaten even more dire circumstances than the current legislation provides.

The Iraq Supplemental + benchmarks + withdrawal plan is extremely popular with voters. If Bush gives them the finger, it'll give congressional Democrats more political leeway in approaches toward ending the war, up to and including defunding.

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Tags: Iraq, Harry Reid, Feingold-Reid (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 207 comments

  •  I like the Edwards plan (14+ / 0-)

    on the veto threat.  Stand up and say HELL NO to Bush.

    •  Yes, Edwards' clout in the Senate will be a boon (5+ / 0-)

      To the Democrats in this most important of battles. His clear view of the objective and tenacity in its pursuit is an inspiration to his colleagues, one imagines.



      And if you see her... Tell her it's over now!

      by Vincenzo Giambatista on Mon Apr 02, 2007 at 07:10:04 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Same as the Clinton plan - Obama is wrong here (0+ / 0-)

      Nice to see Edwards following Hillary's lead here.  In her email this morning to supporters, she demands that Bush withdraw his veto threat:

      Dear Democrats,

      Thank you for your tremendous support over the past weeks. Saturday's deadline marked the end of the first phase of the campaign, and you made sure it was an unqualified success.

      Two months ago, I said I was in it to win it, and the conversations we've been having online and around the country have convinced me more than ever that I've made the right decision. This country needs change, and it's going to take experienced leadership to make that change happen. Together, we can accomplish great things.

      We can end the war in Iraq. We can achieve universal health care coverage. We can commit to energy independence. We can restore America's rightful place on the world stage.

      Working together, we'll get our country back on track. It's going to be a long journey with a lot of hard work, but I can't think of anything more important.

      So let's get back to work. I need your help right now on an important issue.

      Last week we passed historic legislation in the Senate that calls for a phased redeployment for our troops in Iraq while ensuring they have the support they need. It's an important first step in ending the war in Iraq. But President Bush has threatened to veto the bill.

      The American people have had enough of the president's failed strategy in Iraq. Join me today. Tell President Bush to listen to the will of the people and withdraw his veto threat.

      http://www.hillaryclinton.com/...

      Again, thank you so much for the tremendous support you have shown during this campaign. You've exceeded everyone's expectations, and I know I couldn't do this without you.

      Sincerely,

      Hillary Rodham Clinton

      •  Umm... huh? (0+ / 0-)

        "Demand that the president withdraw his veto threat"?  WTF?  That's Hillary's response????  And what, if 100,000 people "demand" this through her website, Bush will fall right in line and sign the bill into law?  What makes Hillary Clinton think that George Bush is going to all of a sudden start listening to the people now?

        The only question is what Senator Clinton is going to do when (not if) Bush vetoes this bill.  Will she join Sen. Reid and insist that it is either this bill or no money at all?  I'm waiting.  Show me the beef.

        "The Power to change this party, and the power to change this country is in your hands, not mine." - Gov. Howard Dean, MD

        by deaniac83 on Tue Apr 03, 2007 at 01:54:08 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Bush is the one rejecting funds for troops. (4+ / 0-)

      Kos, I think you've accepted a bit too much of the GOP/AP frame that 'Reid would move to cut off funding if Bush vetoes the deadline'????

      What is actually about to happen is that Bush is VETOING FUNDING FOR THE TROOPS!!  It's not like he has a line-item veto which would let him annul the deadline.  He is going to veto the funding that would keep our men and women in Iraq well-equipped, armed, and on their way home.

      Let's be clear.  The Senate has already voted to fund troops, along with a clear policy for ending the war.  It is the president who is holding our troops hostage to try to force the Senate to follow his lead.  If the president rejects the Senate funding, Reid will pursue a different way of funding the troops to keep them safe and get them home.  

    •  Edwards v. Obama-The Anti-Hillary Candidate (0+ / 0-)

      Seems to me that a pattern is developing on Dailykos and MyDD that clearly favors Edwards over Obama as the anti-Hillary candidate of the netroots.  

      Although I did not like Obama's recent statements regarding the Iraq supplemental bill, I think it bears noting that he was (and is) on the right side of the main issue, particularly when it counted.  He is also the co-sponsor of one of the earliest bills that calls for phased withdrawal of our troops.  

      Although he has since offered a mea-cultpa, let's remember that Edwards (based on the advice of a political calculation-Bob Shrum anyone?) voted to give Bush the authority to use military force in the first place, which got us into this mess.  For this reason I favor Obama over Edwards, notwithstanding his recent mini-flubs that will amount to very little in terms of the policy decision.  Yet this deserves a front page diary from Markos?  Clearly the Dailykos and MyDD has shown their preference.

  •  Working the big momentum (18+ / 0-)

    I'm ready to trust Reid and Feingold to take us where we need to go. If they aren't back-stabbed ...

    You kids behave or I'm turning this universe around RIGHT NOW! - god

    by Clem Yeobright on Mon Apr 02, 2007 at 06:47:20 PM PDT

  •  Why should it stay a supplemental? (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Clem Yeobright, boofdah

    We need accounting.

    Will the elite be happy living behind gated communities in the potential meltdown? Peace now. -7.00, -2.92

    by mattes on Mon Apr 02, 2007 at 06:48:23 PM PDT

    •  I blame Babs. (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Phil N DeBlanc

      Obviously she and Poppy never said no to Chimpy when he had already run through his allowance but still needed some walking around money for some primo flake and a case of Jack for the big road trip to New Orleans.

      Do you want to know who you are? Don't ask. Act! Action will delineate and define you. --- Thomas Jefferson

      by Wandering Hoo on Mon Apr 02, 2007 at 07:05:39 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Obama suggested tonight (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      mattes, sabishi

      that "ratcheting up the pressure" might include putting Bush on "a shorter leash" by only funding 3 months at a time. I saw him at a "Town Hall" event in Keene NH tonight, you know the kind that used to draw 300 to 400 folks this early in the game? Well, the Town Hall was at the gymnasium that held 2000 people, and it did too...and then some. One boy asked Obama how he planned to get out of Iraq if he became president. Obama never answered directly, instead he described a strategy to get out as soon as possible, especially about how to crank up the pressure on Bush. He isn't thinking about how to get out when he is prez, like Hillary is, he is concentrating on as soon as possible instead. He also stated that getting Repugs to turn is critical, and   forcefully impressed upon the audience his belief that it would be helpful if we contacted our congress critters to press them to support the bill. He outlined  a pragmatic way for us the have an impact, and pointed out that we have a role to play as citizens...a point he returned to time and again. Or he would approach it slant, as when he observed that things generally got out of hand when the people aren't paying attention, admonishing the crowd to "stay engaged".

      I think we have been under estimating the blow back the veto will have on Bush and the Repugs. The rats will have to abandon ship soon, indeed, some already are.

      And by the way, I got a chance to ask him a question when I shook his hand, so I asked about the permanent bases. Making direct eye contact with out batting an eyelash, and  without hesitation he said "No permanent bases".      

  •  Why was this so hard for Obama to do? (19+ / 0-)

    Express a position, support it, advocate it, and fight for it.

    Can't do it? Find another career.

  •  Make them defend their position (20+ / 0-)

    The Bushies act like they hold all the cards.  But, they don't.  The people want out of Iraq asap.  Make him defend his position and watch the Republicans decline.  He'll either take along the Congressional Republicans or we'll run against the vote in 08.

  •  Popular AND the right thing to do... (14+ / 0-)

    No wonder Bush is opposed to it...

    George W. Bush... wiretapping the Amish since 2001...

    by ThatSinger on Mon Apr 02, 2007 at 06:49:11 PM PDT

  •  And I'm sure we all regret (19+ / 0-)

    that it is the President who is standing in the way of a meaningful compromise here, petulant baby that he is.  We've got our script, now we have to learn our lines.

    If somebody writes a book and doesn't care for [its] survival, he's an imbecile.

    ~ Umberto Eco

    by Major Danby on Mon Apr 02, 2007 at 06:49:14 PM PDT

  •  This isn't "pressure" (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    frisco, jrflorida, JVolvo, Jimdotz

    It's playing right into Karl Rove's hands.  Even I shudder to think about hearing my side defend this.

    If you want to call their bluff, remove the peanut money and send it back to Bush, as he demanded.

  •  A dumb strategy on all levels. (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    bandersnatch

    Feingold? Please. This would be like giving McConnell new life.

    With him from the beginning, with him until the end.

    by brooklynbadboy on Mon Apr 02, 2007 at 06:50:52 PM PDT

    •  and what's a better plan? (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      bonesy

      just lie down and take it from the like of george bush, the most petulant, murderous liar to ever be president of any country except maybe russia (stalin) or germany (hitler)...

      we're talking hundreds of thousands dead based on LIES... not lies about a dick sucking but lies about OIL.

      your plan to stop this mass murder? lie on a barrel for him instead of the ground?

      •  here it is... (0+ / 0-)

        Put Bush on a short leash, but give our soldiers the mine-resistant vehicles they need.

        You guys are so childish its amazing. When I was cop, i used to train dumn rookies who thought everything was black or white. For Bush or against Bush.

        The real world isnt like that. You can give bush a basic bill so that our troops have more defenses on their helicopters(its in the bill), or you can cry like a little baby saying "its bush its bush its bush"

        Meanwhile, soldiers are saying "i dont give a shit what you all do, just give me my fucking mine-resistant vehicle! its fucking dangerous over here!"

        But like most on the left..FUCK the soldiers. ITs all about hating bush.

        With him from the beginning, with him until the end.

        by brooklynbadboy on Mon Apr 02, 2007 at 07:10:22 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  It is Bush (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          JVolvo, moosely2006

          Giving a guy who has mismanaged every aspect of the war complete control indefinitely is ignorant. It'd be the equivalent of sending one of those "rookies" out to the field knowing that they were incapable of performing and would like get themselves or someone else killed.

        •  but like most on the right... (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          moosely2006

          It's not about Bush.  It's about his murderous puppetmasters, the military industrial complex and big oil looking out for their bottom line at all costs.

          and you friend have fallen for their crap hook line and sinker.  maybe you should get your head out of your ass and listen to some of those rookies after all.

          and um, as i recall, it was REPUBLICANS who have blocked armored vehicle improvements, repairs, etc. and who banned the use of dragonskin armor which the kids' parents back home had been providing at their own expense.

          meanwhile the richer-than-cops bad boys from brooklyn gets their tax cuts on time...

        •  Find me 218 votes and it's a deal. (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          moosely2006

          Anyone can say, "Just fucking do this or that! Grr!"

          But the "real world" you're talking about requires actually getting votes together.

          Get 'em, and there'll be plenty of time for your tough talk.

  •  I saw about 2 minutes of MSM today (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    newhorizon

    and it was about DEMS CUTTING OFF FUNDING!. Having missed out on all news all day, I wondered what the hell Id missed. This explains it. Of course, it was 2 minutes of Joe Scarborough, but still.

    Good work! Exciting!

    It's a neighborly day in this beautywood. Relentless!

    by ablington on Mon Apr 02, 2007 at 06:51:15 PM PDT

    •  The reports don't look so bad (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      bonesy, moosely2006

      AP:  Reid may move to cut Iraq war funds.
      WASHINGTON - Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (news, bio, voting record) said Monday he wants to cut off money for the        Iraq war next year, making clear for the first time that Democrats are willing to pull out all the stops to end U.S. involvement.

      People want the war funds cut, because they want the war to end  Let them see the Democratic Congress doing it.  Finally, Democrats taking a stand!!!

    •  Pat Buchanan on Tucker (5+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      odum, xanthippe2, JVolvo, bonesy, moosely2006

      was going on this afternoon about Obama saying they would give Bush the money after a veto and then mentioned 'playing chicken with the troops".  That clip played twice while I was in front of the Tube.''

      Obama walked into a GOP frame with his recent comments.  I wish he would find a way out soon, because he is hurting the Democratic position with this.

      Congress has power.  They can use it without hurting the troops.  What do you think happens to those US troops if they stay in Iraq until W leaves office?  How many of them will be maimed or dead?  Bush can get his money with the bill that has already been passed.  If he chooses to veto it, let any consequences be on his head.

  •  Yay! Reid's Finally Stepping Up (6+ / 0-)

    Harry Reid is finally stepping up to the plate, just in time for the Obama Express to roll into Triangulation Station.

    Hopefully Obama's horrible statements of the past couple days are a bug, and not a feature, of his campaign.

    No more Republican rule.

    by HarveyMilk on Mon Apr 02, 2007 at 06:51:37 PM PDT

  •  Earlier Kos: (6+ / 0-)

    Just one diary down:

    p.s. No, separate legislation isn't the best way to make this happen. Bush HAS to sign some sort of Iraq supplemental if he wants his war to continue past this summer. He can veto any standalone legislation to his hearts content.

    Third frontpager today praising Feingold-Reid.

    Third frontpager to not mention that, since it isn't tied to must pass legislation, it has no chance at all of becoming law.

  •  And re-election repercussions. (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Mooncat, cwaltz, bonesy, moosely2006

    These votes will come back to haunt those up for re-election.  Sites like this along with (hopefully) traditional media will remind voters when the time is right.  Give'm hell, Harry.

  •  This is Dan Quayle in cowboy boots (9+ / 0-)

    according to Victor Gold, a decades long GOP insider in new book "Invasion of the Party Snatchers: How the Holy-Rollers and the Neo-Cons Destroyed the GOP."

    "For all the Rove-built facade of his being a 'strong' chief executive, George W. Bush is the weakest, most out of touch president in modern times,"

    Play hardball like Harry Reid is doing not softball like Obama and monkey-in-the-middle like H. Clinton.

  •  Tell it brother! (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    flatford39, moosely2006, newhorizon

    On Obama, on Fox, on Hillary, on the war funding, on the Establishment types who are trying once again to trick regular folks who vote democratic that they are the way to go... fuck that shit.

    Mr. Obama has been talking the talk, about bringing the ubiqitous "change" to DC, but with his "faith-based" endorsement of majority religions in schools while screwing the minority religions (you need a sponsor for a "faith-based" group) and now his Fox News rhetoric on the war... his true colors are shining bright now.

    damn you kos and your "liberal" website! </snark>

    you're on a roll man!

    Keep it up.

  •  Once again KOS borrows from the Rove playbook.. (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Geekesque, Practical Progressive

    None of the polls KOS cites say anything about the CONSEQUENCES of the veto. They do not ask:

    "Who would be to blame if President Bush vetoed this bill?"

    "Do you support cutting off supplemental funding for the troops?"

    Im sure if you ask those questions you will get very different answers.

    With him from the beginning, with him until the end.

    by brooklynbadboy on Mon Apr 02, 2007 at 06:53:57 PM PDT

    •  Who would be to blame? (5+ / 0-)

      That really is still up in the air.  Its going to take Dems framing that particular action.  Its going to take a lot of military families standing behind Dems two minutes after he signs the veto.  They need to be prepared, they need to control the message both on a national level and state and local.  Especially local.  Have Congressman go to their districts and hold local press conferences with tiny hometown papers all at the same time.

      The second question isn't valid, because its not about cutting funding for the troops.  Its about cutting funding for the war.  There is a very serious difference.  Not understanding that is the worst mistake.

      I'm a Second Amendment Liberal...and anyone that isn't has a pre-Bush mentality. It can happen here.

      by jrflorida on Mon Apr 02, 2007 at 07:00:59 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Youre going to lost that PR argument. (0+ / 0-)

        This bill doesent pass, troops are going to see immediate increases in their medical premiums.

        You can blame bush, bush will blame congress, and the American people will blame EVERYONE, because the troops will do all the suffering.

        Read the bill. See whats in there.

        With him from the beginning, with him until the end.

        by brooklynbadboy on Mon Apr 02, 2007 at 07:13:05 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Bush is in charge (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          baahl, xanthippe2

          He vetoes, he is the one that controls how the individual dollars get routed or rerouted.  Sorry, but at this point the people, I believe, know whats going on.  Nothing is lost until its lost and I hope no one ever again fears facing these nut jobs.  Nothing needs to happen to the individual soldier, his medical bills, etc.  This is about funding the war, supplemental funding mind you.  Everything else should have been taken care of with the primary budget.  Unless of course they are not telling the truth.  This bill adds on to things such as health care.  You cant say a veto would harm the troops and blame Congress since Congress is taking care of the troops where this administration has failed.  

          Dems need to stay strong and keep a backbone.  The fight hasn't even started yet.  We are just in the pre-game phase.  No use cowering now.

          I'm a Second Amendment Liberal...and anyone that isn't has a pre-Bush mentality. It can happen here.

          by jrflorida on Mon Apr 02, 2007 at 07:17:13 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  cowering? (0+ / 0-)

            I wonder how many of you have been in a fistfight..lol

            Its like, you all seem to think that getting into the fight matters more than fighting smart and ethically.

            ah well...thats leftists for ya.

            With him from the beginning, with him until the end.

            by brooklynbadboy on Mon Apr 02, 2007 at 08:03:47 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  "leftists"...? (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              moosely2006

              What the fuck does that mean sparky?

            •  Sniff, sniff. (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              JVolvo, MikePhoenix

              Does anyone smell troll-like behavior?  

              BBB, your point seems to be that we should hand this Preznut whatever he wants to prosecute a war he lied us into.

              Funding for the military is good through July.

              And who says it will all be blamed on the Dems?

              What would you have us do?

              Give in and betray the majority who turned the Congress Democratic?

              Or fight to pull the troops out - alive.

              Change the media ownership laws and reinstate the Fairness Doctrine

              by moosely2006 on Mon Apr 02, 2007 at 08:45:31 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  We are fighting smart (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              jrflorida, JVolvo

              and fighting to help the troops... so this ethical quandary you keep bringing up is something of a mystery to me.  And we know that Democrats taking a principled stand that is both smart and ethical scares the hell out of your party.

              As long as we Democrats keep looking out for the troops and don't back down your boys in the GOP are in trouble come election time.  Unless the Democrats bring a "clean" bill to come to the floor they will be going into their '08 elections having not only not supported a timeline but also having not voted for a single dollar of support for the troops.  They will have shown, unequivocally, that partisan politics is more important to them than supporting our troops.  How well is that going to play in red states?

              Democrats are going to hold the line on this.  We are going to help the troops.  If the GOP doesn't smarten up it will be a disaster for them in coming elections.  While not the object of the present battle, it is a nice side benefit.

            •  political cowardice (0+ / 0-)

              You cant fight smart and ethically if you don't fight at all.  Hence my point.  What does a fistfight have to do with anything.  cowering can relate to political cowardice, which is EXACTLY what got us into Iraq in the first place.

              I'm a Second Amendment Liberal...and anyone that isn't has a pre-Bush mentality. It can happen here.

              by jrflorida on Tue Apr 03, 2007 at 06:15:16 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  Bullshit (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          JVolvo, moosely2006

          The bill PASSING Congress (senate and House) and then Chimpy McFlightsuit vetos it. Wining that war is a no brainer.

          Bush had the money for the troops in his hand and vetoed it.

          Furthermore, if he uses the already comical "pork" excuse, strip it out, with tighter more explicit restrictions and send that one to it make him veto that one as well and you have handed the GOP an electoral disaster of epic proportions.

    •  Which part of the President (5+ / 0-)

      vetoed, is the most difficult to understand? If the President vetoes something then obviously that is the President's fault.

      Furthermore if he vetoes then HE is the one that is responsible for cutting off supplemental funding.

      I realize that Bush has made the word accountability a "quaint and archaic" word. However, there is a new Congress in town and it's time that they tell him that he can not behave in an irresponsible manner indefinitely and expect there to be no consequences.

    •  BBB (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      JVolvo

      I'm puzzled by you.  Are you that afraid of Rethug framing?

      And your earlier statement about the Dems being responsible for lack of armor?

      Easy on the Kool-Aid.

      Change the media ownership laws and reinstate the Fairness Doctrine

      by moosely2006 on Mon Apr 02, 2007 at 08:40:22 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  This bill will die a horribly lop-sided death. (0+ / 0-)

    Then what will Harry do?

    With him from the beginning, with him until the end.

    by brooklynbadboy on Mon Apr 02, 2007 at 06:55:41 PM PDT

  •  The republicans are evidentally planning some big (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Geekesque

    attack on the Democrats, specifically Pelosi, in the near future.  This idea was causing slober to ooze down the chin of Pat Buchanen on Sarborough.  I don't see how this is going to work for them, because the American people are not in the mood anymore to buy the bull about terrorists, and siding with the enemy.  Pelosi met with Seria which is apparently a no, no, if you don't want to side with the enemy.  

    I just don't see it going anywhere.  All of a sudden the country is going to side with the party of Bush, and the spectacle that is McCain, against the Democrats?  I don't think so, but then I think like a Democrat not like someone like say, JOhn McCain.

    •  Then the reason we're losing (0+ / 0-)

      becomes the fact they don't have the resources to fight.

      There are plenty of Democratic officials' quotes about "body armor" etc they have ready to throw at us the second they cut funding for the troops.  Ever seen that little youtube ad kos posts here every other day?

      What are we, 3rd graders- we can't see they've been baiting us into this since November?

      •  The GOP is waiting for us to overreach.. (0+ / 0-)

        So that Bush can be the defender of the troops.

        Being Democrats, and not very smart, if we follow KOS strategy we fall right into their hands.

        He seems to think people in rural Pennsylvania are like people in San Francisco.

        The American people do not support cutting off funding. Congress is persuing the right strategy, and that is the bill proposed by Obama.

        With him from the beginning, with him until the end.

        by brooklynbadboy on Mon Apr 02, 2007 at 07:03:34 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I'm in complete agreement (0+ / 0-)

          And am quite frankly stunned at kos' position on this.

          The GOP talking point has been "if you really believe the war is wrong, cut the funding!!!" for months- it's clearly the only move we can make that would save them at this point.

        •  Exactly (0+ / 0-)

          besides instead of cutting funding, we should try to end the war like they did with Vietnam.  Instead of cutting funding they cut the authority of the administration.

          •  YOU ARE THE MAN!! (0+ / 0-)

            Ive been saying that for the longest. The way to end this war is to get rid of the INITIAL AUTHORIZATION FOR IT.

            THATS HOW YOU PUT PRESSURE ON BUSH.

            Instead, we are sending up a bill thats $24 billion over budget, has all sorts of items that troops need RIGHT NOW, just so we can score points with Bush.

            It wont end the war and its certainly wont help us politically.

            With him from the beginning, with him until the end.

            by brooklynbadboy on Mon Apr 02, 2007 at 07:15:08 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I don't get it - Bush would veto either one (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              JVolvo, moosely2006

              If the funding bill forces him to withdraw, or another bill takes away the AUMF authorization, Bush would veto either one, and we most likely don't have a veto-proof majority on either one of those proposed ideas.

              Sooooo...we pass our funding bill with strings attached, and hold firm. If Bush vetos the funding, he'll be forced to withdraw. If Bush signs the funding, he'll have to withdraw.

              Right?

              Investigate War Lies --> Evidence for Senate Conviction --> End the War. Got it?

              by bejammin075 on Mon Apr 02, 2007 at 07:36:02 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  No... (0+ / 0-)

                He wont be forced to withdraw. He will have to cut back on certain operations, but DOD is funded up to the next fiscal year.

                This supplemental bill deals with specific issues like mine-resistant vehicles and aircraft defenses. The idea that he will be forced to withdraw if he vetoes this bill is a falsehood.

                Finally, with the AUMF, you get the same benefit of being against the way without the counter-argument of defunding the troops.

                But, by vetoing the bill, Bush does get to go out and say we are defunding the troops, even if it isnt true. The media will be with him.

                Democrats have stepped into an avoidable minefield here.

                With him from the beginning, with him until the end.

                by brooklynbadboy on Mon Apr 02, 2007 at 07:42:52 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  Bush doesn't recognize the AUMF as authorization. (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              moosely2006, brooklynbadboy

              He believes it's approval, but not authorization.

              He doesn't think he needs authorization. It's an "inherent power."

              •  yes..ive heard this argument before. (0+ / 0-)

                I think its a non-starter politically, but thats a great point.

                Still, if the goal is to get the political advantage, i dont see how repealing the AUMF is anything but a winning issue, even if vetoed.

                The Left is going to have to accept this truth: Congress will not end this war, not by ovverride, not by negotiation.

                The President, no matter how weakened, is still the President. We underestimate this power at our own peril.

                With him from the beginning, with him until the end.

                by brooklynbadboy on Mon Apr 02, 2007 at 07:45:19 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Same problem as always. (1+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  moosely2006

                  Repealing the AUMF does nothing in particular to stop Bush, and gets spun as "surrender."

                  If you can imagine this fate for one bill, you can imagine it for anything.

                  The last six years have been one long non-starter. Yet, here we are. Started and still running.

        •  Defender of the troops (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          hopscotch1997, moosely2006

          Yeah cuz people are going to forget that he's cut funding for veterans or that he dropped the ball when it comes to Walter Reed or that he's shipping people over to Iraq before they have had a year of rest between deployments . If this becomes a pissing contrest betwwen who has the troops best interests at heart WE WILL WIN.

        •  Disagree... (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          curtadams

          ... when you have 80% of people wanting the war to end next year, that includes those rural folk in Pennsylvania.

          Reid and Pelosi are not dumb... Reid, especially, is not a guy who would overreach if he didn't think that he could pull it off.

          There is a lot more to this than meets the eye.  Reid and Pelosi know something... perhaps it's the fact that Republicans plan to bail on the surge by August... I don't know, but they would not even suggest this if they didn't think it would work.

          So, for, these guys have been spot on!

          Thanks,

          Mike

          The United States of America--the only country in the world where being educated and cultured actually *lowers* your social and political standing.

          by LordMike on Mon Apr 02, 2007 at 10:25:33 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  If we bend to the republicans accusations, when (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        JVolvo, moosely2006

        they are wrong, then we are stupid.  We need to educate the public about what cutting funding means, not not do it for fear of what the republicans will use against us.  In Viet Nam, it didn't put our troops more at risk or keep any supplies from them that they would have gotten, but it did make the country implode after we left.  The polls seem to say that people are okay with Iraq imploding after we leave, so that is half the battle right there.  Education of the concept of cutting off funding needs to be stepped up a lot, but we should not back down about cutting funding.

      •  But that tack doesn't work (0+ / 0-)

        When Bush had the funds in his hands and vetoed it.

    •  That's the funny thing (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      hopscotch1997, JVolvo, moosely2006

      The GOP has been trotting out the same tired BS and finally Americans are starting to recognize it for what it is.

      The majority of this country believes we never belonged in Iraq to begin with and wants us to start coming home anyway. Now if only Reid and Feingold can keep the Democrats spines straight.

  •  I have an even better idea. (5+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Mooncat, JVolvo, MO Blue, moosely2006, Jimdotz

    I am PRAYING that Bush vetoes the Iraq bill and claims "pork" is the reason. Praying for it!

    Because, that would allow the Dems to go back and pass the same bill again, only with all the dumbass pork yanked out of it. I'm talking about the Spinich and shrimp subsidies, not the money for Walter Reid, of course.

    The generally favorable reaction to the dems (public reaction, I mean. Not pundit reaction), vote n this bill may have stiffened the spines of the logrollers on Congress. So if the Dems put up a PURE bill without all the pork, imagine how tough that will be for at-risk GOPers to vote against it?

    Then, the Dems can send a Pork-LESS bill back to Preisdent Bush with the exact same timetables.

    Let's see him veto it it the second time. And if he does, what will be his excuse? Whatever it is, it will either be a complete, easily debunked lie, or it will be the truth (that he refuses t