125 miles per gallon....You want it you got it T-O-Y-O-T-A

I am a loyal Toyota driver.  I would buy from the American manufacuring companies if they could produce a product that I really liked.  The management of the big 3 American auto companies really seem to have their head up their asses. They are more than likely Republicans....

Anyhow check out this new hybrid

Toyota continues to bitch slap their American counterparts.  While everyone is bolstering about great gas mileage at 30-40 mpg.  Toyota is about to start rolling out the new Prius that will shatter new miles per gallon records and pretty much put a nail on the coffin of the American manufacturers.  I will admit it.  I have no loyalty.  Toyota hires American workers, builds a superior product and quite frankly manages with the longevity of their company in mind.  A Toyota will last you 200,000 miles before you have to sink money into replacing serious parts.  It is important that we all set some sort of goal to purchase our next vehicle as a hybrid.  I'm not in a finacial situation to purchase one at this point but "if it doesn't plug, then no deal" on my next purchase.  It really is a resposible decision.  Oh and if you think gas is going to ever go back down to $2.00/ gal.  Dream on.  The gas companies have our politicians in their pockets. Can you say 4.00 gal within the next few months? We have to change our personal addictions (yes you reading this) to oil.

Here is another interesting story to make your blood boil...

Bush is scaling back U.S. satellites that monitor global warming whilel that two faced son of a bitch says he is concerned about the environment.

•  GO TOYOTA!!

  Oh wait all this new technolgy is bad for business right Big Three. YEAH YOU'RE BUSINESS!!!

  by Chaoslillith on Tue Jun 05, 2007 at 08:42:08 PM PDT

  •  um...

    hate to burst your bubble but this is nothing to do with Toyota.

    read the article closely: it is a battery technology company that simply uses a Prius to showcase their technology.  they say their technology may be available in "hybrid cars", not just Toyotas.  toyota has nothing to do with this.

    by Land Use Watch on Tue Jun 05, 2007 at 10:55:46 PM PDT

    •  GM is already planning to use this battery.

      They just built two new plants to make them.  I'll post a diary on this later.

      by djtyg on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 01:31:02 AM PDT

      •  Built two new plants?

        Thought that it was that they signed contracts with two companies for test runs of batteries ... ??

        by A Siegel on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 03:29:47 AM PDT

        •  Meanwhile they have John Dingell writing

          legislation that keeps the heat off the car companies' CAFE standards for decades into the future and keeping us way behind European standards.

          by inclusiveheart on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 06:36:31 AM PDT

          •  Can't find the cite off-hand

            ... but I saw in the paper yesterday that Dingell's proposal would ratchet up CAFE in exchange for having Congress agree to remove regulations on emissions.  I'll look for it later.

            They really have no clue.  Instead of spending millions of dollars on lawyers and lobbyists trying to delay or kill regulations, they should have been sinking that cash into making more efficient cars.

            Maybe the Almighty Quarterly Profit might have taken a few hits but it wouldn't be as bad as it is now.

            by gsbadj on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 08:07:44 AM PDT

          •  And, spending millions on an astroturf

            campaign to undermine any moves toward strengthening CAFE standards.

            See: ALERT: Astroturfing to fight mileage standards

            by A Siegel on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 10:30:27 AM PDT

            •  I been thinking about a plan of attack here.

              How about we start lobbying Congress for the right to buy European cars from Europe - built to European standards - it is a "global economy" afterall and they are building cars with MUCH higher gas mileage and we should be able to access those cars regardless of the differences in safety standards.

              I am thinking with gas prices going up we could potentially really put Dingell and his car buddies on the run.  The thing that the oil/car lobbies don't want anyone in America to know is that we could be driving more efficient and lower emmission cars in as short a time as it take to ship one across the pond.

              It would be worth stirring up the pot sitting around the local diner when someone says something about high gas prices - go into a thing about "the government" is stopping you from getting cars that would be cheaper.  :)  That would really piss the US car dealers off and they are a really powerful force in car world. It would put people like Dingell on the defensive and threaten the car manufacturers here.  Divide and conquer...

              by inclusiveheart on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 11:59:43 AM PDT

      •  Where are these plants located?

        They just closed one in Atlanta, GA.

        by pkbarbiedoll on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 05:03:41 AM PDT

      •  by strange coincidence

        I just left the GM website after reading a WaPo article that said GM will introduce a series of hybrids next year, including SUV versions and sedan versions including Saturn, et al.

        I just left the GM website before visiting DKos, here is the Saturn and here is the Chevy Volt Plug in and here is the WaPo article.

        Say goodbye to the Accord hybrid.

        by oklacoma dem on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 05:12:07 AM PDT

        •  The only thing about the Volt

          I don't like is the "pimp ride" styling and tiny windows.

          Otherwise I'd agree it looks like a great option.

          by kismet on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 05:26:59 AM PDT

          •  I'm not thrilled

            with the design myself.

            by oklacoma dem on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 05:34:32 AM PDT

          •  They're not styling it for you

            they're styling it for that mythical 18-25 yr old male driver.

            You know, the one who can't AFFORD the f***ing car in the first place? Let alone the insurance...

            by mmacdDE on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 06:47:37 AM PDT

            •  Remember...

              it doesn't matter if you can really afford the car.. just that they can get the payments low enough for you to bite.... Once the car is out the door, it's not their problem.

              by Serpents Sorrow on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 07:03:08 AM PDT

              •  Except that

                it's kinda hard to afford the payments if you don't have any income...

                by mmacdDE on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 07:31:58 AM PDT

                •  I hear what you're saying...

                  I was just trying to point to the prevalence of predatory lending in all arenas of consumption these days. I have a vivid experience at an auto dealership from a couple years ago that makes me want to mention this as often as I can... suffice it to say they tried to pressure me into something I couldn't afford by stringing out the payments as long as possible and making it LOOK like I was getting a better deal.

                  by Serpents Sorrow on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 07:56:34 AM PDT

                  •  mmm predatory lending

                    http://www.onpointradio.org/...

                    by debedb on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 09:22:30 AM PDT

                    •  devedb, re predatory lending,

                      Why do you hate America? /snark

                      by mcmom on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 10:27:50 AM PDT

                      •  I think

                        it's because of it's freedoms. Yes, that's right.

                        by debedb on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 05:36:43 PM PDT

            •  Nice

              Here I am looking for a new car to replace the 20 year old one that's getting to the 'regularly make expensive repairs' point, and all the cars that are being designed are pimpMobile Testosterones.

              And won't be available until next year. Or the year after.

              I've always said that my next car will be a hybrid. And now that it's time for my next car, I can't afford that damn hybrid because everyone has quit making small ones.

              This is so frustrating.

              by reklemrov on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 12:03:53 PM PDT

          •  That version of the vbolt was for show.

            It mainly was about getting headlines. The architecture will be incorporated into other vehicles and the volt final product will change.

            By the way... is the Prius a good looking car?

            Washington Woman

            EENR

            by kevin22262 on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 08:20:52 AM PDT

          •  Agree about the windows,

            but I think the styling overall is pretty cool, and I'm 42.

            by LightningMan on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 09:43:13 AM PDT

            •  I don't mind the way it looks -

              I'm 38 - it looks okay.  Much better than the Scion stuff that I see around.

              by political girl on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 10:08:50 AM PDT

          •  I like the Tesla

            Very cool! Very expensive!! GM should just copy Tesla. You know, like Microsoft copying Apple. Seems to work for them.

            by Batfish on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 10:48:10 AM PDT

        •  Accord hybrid to be replaced by a CRI diesel

          I have read elsewhere that Honda is ditching hybrids in favor of ultra-high MPG clean Common Rail Injection diesel engines, which rely on more conventional technology and do not require banks of expensive and heavy batteries. Battery manufacturing and disposal is not a pretty sight either, btw.

          Plug-in hybrids sound nice, but the electricity still has to come from somewhere: more powerplants will have to be built to generate the extra demand for electricity if there are to be hundreds of thousands of cars having their batteries charged every night.  This means lots and lots of coal will be mined and burned in   the new "clean coal" plants the TV commercials are always telling us about.

          Volkswagen is introducting a new Jetta sport wagon in January 2008 that has an option for a turbodiesel powerplant that gets 60mpg on the highway. Fill that puppy up with biodiesel, and you're well on your way toward cutting our petroleum dependency and decreasing carbon emissions.  

          by Mad Kossack on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 06:18:56 AM PDT

          •  it won't be that bad

            Plug-in hybrids sound nice, but the electricity still has to come from somewhere: more powerplants will have to be built to generate the extra demand for electricity if there are to be hundreds of thousands of cars having their batteries charged every night.

            eh, if people are charging their cars overnight, that's when power plants have to throttle down a bit due to lack of demand anyways. i guess it depends on how many people have plug-in hybrids, but i doubt it will be a problem.

            by chopper on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 06:25:20 AM PDT

            •  According to "Who Killed the Electric Car"

              The cost to the consumer per mile to plug in is about 1/6th of the cost of filling up - that was at gas prices about 2 years ago, when the film was made, i guess..

              by malcolm on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 10:37:34 AM PDT

          •  Even power created by dirty coal centrally

            Is cleaner these days than power created in the engine.

            by nightsweat on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 06:36:18 AM PDT

            •  But coal isn't a renewable resource.

              The thing we have to really start looking at are renewables because it is true that electric cars still have to get their power from a power company at this point.  That option won't change our situation if we don't have renewables producing the energy.

              Cutting the tops off of every mountain in the world to mine coal wouldn't be any better idea than continuing as we are now.

              Also having seen what dirty coal plants have already done in China, you really don't want to go there.

              by inclusiveheart on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 06:43:50 AM PDT

              •  We do have to start loking at renewable

                But until those are up and running, we have coal.

                I'd even go so far as to incentivize power producers to use wind/water/geo/solar power to produce energy, but until the costs of production are anywhere near coal/oil/gas fired plants we're going to use fossil fuels.  Better to use the coal to produce the go-juice than to import foreign oil and drive up the cost of gas/lubricants/plastics, IMHO.

                by nightsweat on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 07:05:39 AM PDT

                •  As big Al says, we all have to do

                  five small things to make big savings in energy and to help the environment. The most simple way for most of us is to walk when possible, take public transportation where available, carpool, and combine trips. When you live on a ranch, miles from anywhere, you quickly learn to plan your driving. I still do this when doing driving chores. I have set up a perimeter, and do a sort of "loop," for my trips, using those stores/services that are closest, including our entertainment. We never have to "run to the store" for milk, etc. I don't find this inconvenient at all. I should mention that we live on the east end of the city, and are not within walking distance to most destinations.

                  by mcmom on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 10:39:11 AM PDT

              •  A battery powered car doesn't care...

                Where the energy comes from. It could be hydro or wind or nuclear or even generated by a biomass generator burning switchgrass (which can be close to or completely carbon neutral if the grass is grown nearby) Heck, imagine using your lawn to power your car? If we drove Plug in hybrids with biodeisel ICE engines we could get the best of both worlds.

                Yes, right now we get most of our electricity from King coal, but things don't have to stay that way. Plus we could force big coal to sequester their carbon better and clean their emissions while we transition to something more sustainable. (yes they will kick and scream like children, but so will ANY industry we regulate for any reason). Imagine seeing new cases of childhood and adult athsma start to actually decline!

                by Serpents Sorrow on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 07:12:28 AM PDT

                •  I agree - I just think that the electric car

                  thing is being sold on some level as part of a shell game because a lot of consumers think that if they are using electricity instead of gas to fuel their car (plug in electric as opposed to self generated) - they think that they have "solved" the problem with carbon emissions and fossil fuels - that is because most people don't realize how their electricity is generated at the source which is for most a far away plant they never see or think about.

                  The other thing that most people don't realize is that buildings and homes are cumulatively actually bigger polluters than cars are and that is due in part to the fact that much of our energy comes from coal fired plants.

                  So it is really important to follow the path back to the original source of our power to figure out if we are actually making advances on this front.

                  by inclusiveheart on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 07:21:40 AM PDT

                  •  I agree to a point

                    I agree that it's important to be looking at all the sources of greenhouse pollution (as we as good ole particle pollution that causes athsma, which I suffer from daily). There are many many sources of pollutio in our wasteful society that people often overlook, like ICE lawnmowers for example. But when it comes to cars the Long tail pipe myth is just that, it's a myth. If I switch to 100 % coal fueled battery electric driving today I will still be pollutiong far far less than I was having my own ICE engine, in large part due to the much greater efficiency of an electric drive system (much much less energy is lost to heat and friction). Plus I no longer support the shipping of oil fuel across the ocean. Plus I have the benefit that if I put up a 5'X 10'  solar array on my roof I can completely offset the  power used by my electric car. But my electric car (Like all electric devices) can be powered by a million different methods of electric generation, be it wind or hydro electric, solar, etc...

                    So, on the one hand: Yes we need to commit to combatting every source of foolish waste and pollution, but on the other I don't think we should dismiss anything out of hand because it doesn't provide a perfect solution.

                    by Serpents Sorrow on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 07:49:29 AM PDT

                    •  I am not dismissing anything - just

                      hoping that people start installing solar arrays and don't stop at buying an electric car thinking they are "done" - which is a common misconception.

                      Also just from a purely economical stand point if we go heavily towards coal as China has, we will be competing with them on that front too for the coal and will find ourselves in the same situation as we are now down the road.  I think we need to work our asses off now to create an alternative renewable energey infrastructure in this country to stay ahead of or at least out from under China and India.

                      by inclusiveheart on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 08:06:42 AM PDT

                      •  I apologize then.

                        I apologize then, 'dismiss' was a poor choice of words for your comments. I understand and appreciate your concerns.

                        I have been thinking about lowering my energy use and costs in some new ways lately after discovering that I could, for instance, heat my home (I live in the Northeast) with corn or wood pellets burned in a highly efficient stove that significantly lowers the cost for heat and since the corn and wood (which could also be compressed switch grass or cherry pits or many other renewable organic wastes) is a renewable resource and burning it can be carbon neutral since the corn or switch grass or cherry tree took that carbon from the air in the first place when it grew. I definitely think all available methods for changing our bloated lifestyles here in the USA should be considered.

                        by Serpents Sorrow on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 10:45:30 AM PDT

                        •  That's cool about the cherry pits etc.

                          I love wood burning stoves.  My old friends had one in their house on the Cape that kept the entire house completely toasty even on the coldest windy days.

                          by inclusiveheart on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 11:15:45 AM PDT

                      •  I got it backwards: I have the array

                        but I can't get the car for any sort of reasonable price - both cars awaiting the plug-in revolution.  

                        Hear that auto manufacturers?

                        by Prof Dave on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 12:53:13 PM PDT

                •  The idea of running all cars on wind and solar

                  energy makes me crazy freakin' hopeful!

                  by Tirge Caps on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 09:41:01 AM PDT

              •  How big a photocell do you need to charge up a

                plug-in overnight?

                No, this isn't that kinda joke.

                Seriously, anyone know whether rooftop installation is sufficient, and how much photocell panels that size might cost?

                by leveymg on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 10:02:42 AM PDT

                •  Ask Serpents Sorrow above.

                  He/she seems to have installed some panels and might have some info for you - there is a link in the comment above called "solar array".

                  There is some really exciting technology coming out of New Zealand that utilizes green photocells - it has a ways to go - but it looks really promising.  That isn't for today, but certainly worth keeping your eye on.

                  by inclusiveheart on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 10:29:39 AM PDT

                •  With a 6kW capacity system

                  system on my roof in CO, I am more than 1MW ahead in the last 8 months - plenty enough to charge and run two cars, probably more.  Even with the wierd overcast weather/blizzards.

                  Cost before subsidies:  ~$40,000.  Cost after subsidies in CO:  ~$8,000.  From my perspective now, it could probably be done for less, but I wanted to make sure that there was enough for fueling cars in the future, and I hadn't done my CF light bulb conversion when I did that installation.

                  If there were a decent electric car now, I would already have it and be going down that path, as I have a 12 year old car that needs to be replaced and a 7 year old car that will need to be replaced relatively soon.

                  by Prof Dave on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 01:00:10 PM PDT

            •  tell it to people in TN, WV, KY

              who are having their mountains cut out from under them by the coal companies, leaving a wasteland behind.  There are many ways to be dirty besides air pollution.

              Mountaintop removal is an abomination.

              by Mad Kossack on Thu Jun 07, 2007 at 12:11:07 AM PDT

          •  Plaster the roof of your house with solar panels

            and how much CO2 are you consuming?

            by beobjective on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 07:20:54 AM PDT

            •  And plaster parking lots with solar panels.

              Save energy twice: cars stay cooler (a big problem in the southwest), and the energy generated can run stores and power parked cars.

              This could be a nice business, providing income for solar power companies, or the for the stores which can sell power to their patrons while they shop.

              Just a thought.

              by means are the ends on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 08:02:08 AM PDT

              •  The Park 'N' Plug. I like it!

                by Tirge Caps on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 09:42:01 AM PDT

          •  My hairdresser's husband is an

            engineer, and he is very concerned about the battery issues of hybrids, not only the manufacturing process, but also the disposal of old batteries. He has a Prius, but claims that, so far, the hybrid technology is not environmentally sound in the long run.

            by mcmom on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 10:31:47 AM PDT

            •  The batteries can be recycled

              Just take them to any Toyota dealer.  Toyota even pays the dealer a "bounty fee".

              by Geotpf on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 11:14:04 AM PDT

        •  The Volt is a "concept car". Will it ever

          actually be made, or is it just a PR puff-piece type thing. IIRC, the US car companies are fighting fuel-efficiency standard tooth and nail as we speak.

          That said, I NEED a new car, and keep driving my 17 year old junker waiting in the vain hope of being able to buy a new car that is an actual improvement.

          I would be happy to buy the plug-in Prius. The Volt I would buy strictly for the fuel economy.

          But I'm a 50+ year-old mom with teens. I need something that doesn't scream, "I'm young, reckless, immature, and waste my money on hot cars: arrest me!" I hate its looks.

          by means are the ends on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 07:55:22 AM PDT

        •  already out

          2008 models of pickups and SUVS two mode hybid. look for a plug in hybrid two mode Saturn vue in 2009

          by waitingforvizzini on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 08:36:42 AM PDT

        •  C'mon Chevy

          I'm from a Detroit-area family where it would be seriously embarrassing to pull up to the family reunion picnic in a foreign car.  Everyone works for the Big 3.  My 2000 Cavalier only has 50,000 miles on it and will probably last me another 5+ years, which is good considering I'm broke.  But if I can even afford a car 5 years from now, I want the most environmentally-friendly one available.

          Then again I'd be even happier if one could live in Metro Detroit without a car, since I work at home and hate driving.

          by Downriver Gal on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 08:47:55 AM PDT

        •  however the diesel they'll offer

          gets 52 mpg and meets or exceeds caligornia emmisions standards. so the accord looks good.

          by waitingforvizzini on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 10:23:14 AM PDT

      •  GM

        Phucked up SAAB, but not yet completely

        I own a 1994 SAAB 900 rag that gets 28/35 with modifications, a 1997 SAAb Aero 30/36 with modifications, and a 2000 SAAB Aero 4dr sedan that yields 26/30 stock-

        The "GM" SAAB gets overall less MPG because it is heavier than it's 900 or 9000 counterparts-  The Drivetrains in the '97/'98 Aero/CSE's are nearly the same as 9-5's , yet their avg fuel is 3-5 mpg less;;;  Thanx for the burger and fries, GM-

        SAAB always led many others in the form and function department-  GM needs to hand the keys back to SAAB/Scania and let the folks who gave us the APC feedback fuel-aire system, give toyota a run for their money...

        Volt is a step in the right direction to counter Ford, but to compete against Toyota,  I would fight back with BioPower

        by RF on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 05:13:49 AM PDT

        •  Same here - I have a 2000 now and it

          is junk compared to my '96 9-3.  I loved my old one and unfortunately someone crashed it.  I heard GM was thinking of selling SAAB and I was gleeful at the prospect of getting the company out of their clutches.

          by inclusiveheart on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 06:47:47 AM PDT

        •  Saab owner here too,

          89 turbo and 94 rag top both unmodified with similar mpg in town and even better on the hi-way. We routinely get 40 plus high way driving on a nearly 20 year old car with 185,000 miles on it ( no major work either) I don't feel so bad about not being able to buy a newer car, most can't approach the MPG, the safety OR the longevity of these cars. I can only hope with GM's problems Saab auto division will buy itself back because I really doubt GM see the value in letting Saab do what they do best.

          by ghengismom on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 06:51:26 AM PDT

        •  More competition leads to greater innovation...

          When Saab and Volvo were not owned by American auto makers, they were much more able to think on their own and develop their own product.  It seems as if the new Saabs have diminished in reliability and many years and miles of endurance since the take over.  Occasionally, I still see an old pre-GM Saab out on the road that dates back to the 1980s or 1990s.  I don't see much of the older GM Saabs out on the road any more.  My father had over 220,000 on his '86 900 which lasted over 13 years.

          by Big A on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 06:55:51 AM PDT

        •  And the older ones look better, too

          

          by NoMoJoe on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 08:19:26 AM PDT

      •  Re djtyg, Land Use Watch and NMDan

        Thank you for this diary NM Dan. Most interesting. Volvo is also looking into what LTC has come up with . I bet there are more vehicles producing companies that have looked into LTC's  LiFePO4's technology.

        It's on the table at both Ford and GM I guess. They (Volvo et all) are also looking into Ultracapacitors and a lot of new stuff on the battery market.

        by New Sweden on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 08:05:33 AM PDT

      •  I'll be looking for this

        Hope GM gets its act together soon, if only for their NA workers.

        by SteveLCo on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 08:53:16 AM PDT

    •  Its how a group of people here work.

      If it's US autos, they suck and must immediately be demonized as if they were Dick Cheney.  You, on the other hand, expect a diary on the rec. list to be researched and fact based when a rant is so much easier.  

      GM says, with the right batteries, the Volt could travel 40 miles -- equal to the average American's daily commute -- without a drop of gas. For those who drive farther, the Volt concept uses a three-cylinder gasoline engine to recharge the battery, so the vehicle could drive 640 miles on a 12-gallon tank without having to stop to refuel or recharge, generating more than 50 miles per gallon.

      For drivers who commute about 60 miles per day, the mileage should average about 150 miles per gallon.

      The concept of the Volt has given GM a sliver of cachet among green vehicle enthusiasts and car buyers. GM's executives have said the goal of a production Volt would be to leapfrog Toyota Motor Corp.'s best-selling Prius as the industry's leader in environmentally friendly technology as soon as 2010.  snip...In addition to joining the U.S. Climate Action Partnership, a group of corporations calling for greenhouse gas reductions, GM has promised several hybrid models in addition to those it sells today and pledged to make half its vehicles capable of burning ethanol fuels by 2012.

      But among Detroit automaker chief executives, Wagoner has been the most outspoken opponent of federal fuel economy rules, saying they put too many burdens on the industry and save far less oil than switching to biofuels.  

      Instead of expensive re-engineering to bring up fuel standards, US autos have been asking Bush and Congress for a "firm" commitment to biofuels, which they can't get.  Apparently, the people here would rather protect big oil's corner on the fuel market and destroy what little is left of US autos (and unions) by demanding higher fuel standards instead of alternative fuels.  Ah, but they are such good stewarts of the planet. Too bad they can't see further than their nose.  

      by dkmich on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 02:39:15 AM PDT

      •  yeah we do

        we want alternative fuels.

        WHen folks like the Governator decide to get the fuck out of the way , instead of posing in the limelight and greenwashing themselves to death, then maybe we can make progress on biofuels.

        uaw and other auto unions should put more pressure on the big three to go greener with design, but based on what I know from seeing my uncle work as a union guy(U.S. Steel,Co.), it's hard enough trying to keep people's jobs without trying to change the mission of the company itself. So i feel that.

        But as long as we're trying to eat our plants and burn them as fuel too....then we look as fucking stupid as 'let them eat cake' Marie did.

        Legalize hemp[support California Hemp Act of 2007]. cut the bullshit already, that's my motto for alternative fuels.

        by change the Be on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 03:20:13 AM PDT

        •  Then if you agree with what the autos want,

          why are you yelling at me?  

          by dkmich on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 03:32:30 AM PDT

          •  For six years,

            the big three have asked for three things:  pressure on China to quit manipulating the yen, universal health care/assistance with health care costs, and a real US commitment to biofuels (I agree with you about hemp).  They got none of it.  

            by dkmich on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 03:34:19 AM PDT

            •  you referred to kossacks

              and that we didn't talk enough about alternative fuels.

              IF my participation on this website is to be indicative at all, I would just say that we DO shout a lot alternative fuels.

              Like I said, I have family working for US steel. So if the us auto industry goes down, more of my family/friends of theirs will continue losing their jobs/wages. I wouldn't want that, of course.

              by change the Be on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 05:08:34 AM PDT

              •  biofuels are trouble

                rainforest cleared to grow palm oil

                hungry people forced to compete with fuel-desirous first-worlders for agricultural products

                by mightymouse on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 05:57:29 AM PDT

                •  that is not the only alternative

                  or the only way to create it.

                  by tony the American Mutt on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 07:18:09 AM PDT

                  •  Yes, it is the only alternative (because of trade

                    It is the only alternative because of trade agreements we signed back in the 90's that have written into them that they trump whatever other environmental protection laws about the sources of things we buy we might pass.  Read Paul Hawken's "The Ecology of Commerce" about GATTs and such.

                    by kitkatkos on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 08:21:43 AM PDT

                    •  Can you say hemp? It would be cheap and easy to

                      grow; and it makes a high grade fuel.  

                      by dkmich on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 11:54:18 AM PDT

                      •  I wonder if it is too water-intensive, but..

                        so long as the knuckledraggers running our govt. are permitted to keep it illegal, we shall never find out...

                        so tired of waiting.

                        by change the Be on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 01:12:21 PM PDT

                        •  IF you can force them into alternative fuels,

                          hemp should be easy.  It is commercial grade hemp, not smoking hemp.  Hemp milk is already being sold in this country.

                          by dkmich on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 01:23:33 PM PDT

                  •  true, but

                    biofuels on a small scale are fine. but biofuels as a major component of our energy menu will result in lots of problems.

                    by mightymouse on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 10:00:36 AM PDT

                    •  So, you aren't committed to alternative fuels.

                      What you want is to continue buy oil from Cheney's new pumps in Iraq.  

                      by dkmich on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 11:55:37 AM PDT

                      •  biofuels are problematic

                        they free us from Cheney, but they bring a whole new set of problems.

                        If you can do it without taking cropland away from food, and without clearing forests or other natural areas, you might have something. But I am very skeptical.

                        by mightymouse on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 01:47:19 PM PDT

              •  No, I never said that.

                I said instead of forcing high MPG, why not commit to alternative fuels IF it helps Detroit manufacturing AND it can reduce oil consumption.

                by dkmich on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 11:53:29 AM PDT

      •  Good

        Get back to us when you can walk into a Chevy dealer and purchase a Volt.  Until then, it's just hype and hot air.

        Meanwhile, one can walk in to a Toyota dealer today and purchase a Prius.  In fact, 24,009 people did just that last month.

        by Geotpf on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 11:16:05 AM PDT

        •  Toyota needs the same GD batteries as GM.

          You make it shound like you can't buy an American made hybrid.  Honda just announced not enough of you yuppies are buying their hybrids so their going to stop making them.  Sounds familiar to me.

          by dkmich on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 11:57:01 AM PDT

          •  Prius sales triple in May

            Toyota said it sold just over 24,000 Priuses in May, boosting the car into ninth place among all vehicles for the month and cracking the list of 10 top sellers for the first time.

            by ocooper on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 12:06:10 PM PDT

          •  I'm not saying that at all

            I'm just saying you can buy a Prius today.  You can not buy a Volt, because it doesn't exist (yet).  That's all.

            by Geotpf on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 12:07:16 PM PDT

            •  Yes, you can buy a Prious today.

              You can also buy hybrids from Honda, Ford, and GM.  So what.

              by dkmich on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 01:24:42 PM PDT

    •  They're all scared of the battery technology.

      Remember the laptops bursting into flames because of faulty Sony batteries?  Same tech.  It's perfectly safe if you have excellent quality control, but mess up a little and bam! firestarters in every car.

      I have no doubt that it will be (or probably already is) fixed, but all the car manufacturers are allergic to risks like creating the Neo-Pinto.

      by nightsweat on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 06:35:09 AM PDT

      •  This is different than driving around with

        10 gallons of combustable liquid underneath you?

        by Webster on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 11:22:36 AM PDT

    •  I wouldn't say nothing

      Toyota (and Honda to some extent) have really managed to push the idea that hybrids are cool, desirable, and in some sense mainstream--not just a sop to hyperenviromentalists or experimental cars that sound nice, but don't work very well. It would certainly be wonderful if all car manufacturers start going in this direction, but Toyota has not only been well-placed to lead in this area, it HAS led in this area. Changing car design is a pretty big ship to turn around, considering how many cars are built and how big the industry is. In some ways it's just easier to go with what you know. I give credit to Toyota for not being satisfied with that--for whatever reason (consider that their real motivation is to make money--and that's OK). U.S. automakers, on the other hand, give the impression that they are reluctantly following because they have no choice.

      by JMS on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 06:40:44 AM PDT

    •  Chevy Volt

      Gets better mileage and can uses 4 fuel/power sources.

      by crushie on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 07:48:20 AM PDT

      •  No it doesn't

        It doesn't currently exist.

        by Geotpf on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 11:17:39 AM PDT

    •  Even a non-hybrid Toyota

      like my 1992 Paseo gets 57 mpg on a flat road. Just imagine the gas saved if we'd all been getting 57 mpg for the last 15 years...

      Of course, there are still emissions, and it's still not a patch on what public transit would do for us.

      by SensibleShoes on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 08:23:03 AM PDT

  •  I hate the Prius.

    I'm 6'4" tall.  I can't fit into one!  I like the gas milage, but I need a car that doesn't nearly break my neck from just sitting in it.  I wanted one until I got into one:).

    GM is now working on making The Volt.  I haven't seen it in person, but I'm hoping that it's big enough for an above-average sized person.

    by djtyg on Tue Jun 05, 2007 at 10:56:39 PM PDT

    •  I would have bought a Prius,

      but on the test drive I had the same problem as you. I'm 6'5".  I ended up with the Ford Escape.  I tried the highlander, too.  It was a nice car, very comfortable and pleasant to drive, but got something like 30% worse mpg.  After incentives, rebates, etc, it also was something like $11K more than the Escape.

      There's nothing really exciting about the Escape, but if I drive super cautiously I can get mid 30's, at least on medium to long distance trips, which is great for an SUV.  I would have bought the Prius, though, had I fit.  

      by andreuccio on Tue Jun 05, 2007 at 11:14:11 PM PDT

      •  what about the Scion?

        by sooner on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 12:00:52 AM PDT

        •  The XB needs plug in hybrid...

          technology NOW!  The TC is limited in space, and the XA already gets good milage per se.

          What is needed is dual range drives.  The XB suffers terribly from a single range gearing that seems to put the engine RPM's in a range that makes the engine seems stressed at only 70mph, and if you have ever driven the NYS Thruway or the Turnpike in Ohio, you know you damn well better do 70 or better or you will be run over!  Chevy's "Daewoo" built Aveo will zip on the thruway with no hassle at all and will blow off most Scions easily except the TC because the Aveo has very good gearing, I mean it just seems endless for its little 1.7 liter engine, while getting around 35 miles per gallon at about 75 miles an hour.

          Gearing vastly improves milage too.  Ford is looking into this in depth in the popular F series Truck line.  Two speed axles were common years ago in 3/4 ton and up light and medium trucks, and there seems to be pressure in this regard for even the F-150 to have this option available.  Ford says that plug-in F's are coming, and I believe they have signed on for the super batteries as well.

          I would buy a Yaris or Prius, but I literally will not fit into either vehicle due to height.  

          by boilerman10 on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 05:04:19 AM PDT

          •  I drive 95 every AM in Maryland in xB

            70 is about 3200 rpm if you don't have overdrive switched off. It's got plenty of rpm to go from there.

            by nightsweat on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 06:53:44 AM PDT

            •  The one I tested at Steet Motors in New Hartford

              New York was straining a bit at 70 and looked to be about 34 to 3500 rpm.  Perhaps the ODwas locked out, perhaps it was deeper geared.

              That was late 2005, in a new 2006 model.  A later 2006 model tried at Romano's in Syracuse was not much better, but the TC was geared quite well when we tried it, and the XA seemed easier running too.  However, I liked the XB in town where the deeper gearing seemed well suited to "street fighting."

              I basically like the XB, but feel a cruise control is something desperately needed in any trip over 50 miles!  In addition to hybrid systems and dual range gearing.

              by boilerman10 on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 07:03:17 AM PDT

              •  My two biggest disappointments

                Were the lack of cruise control (though I have driven it from Baltmore to Louisville and back without one), and the lack of curtain airbags.

                Otherwise, I like the car a lot.

                by nightsweat on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 07:07:13 AM PDT

                •  I own a 2006 xA

                  I bought it over the xB for three reasons:

                  1. I didn't want to drive a box.

                  2. Side airbags were available in the xA, but not the xB.

                  3. It was slightly cheaper.

                  It does fine on the highway.  It's no sports car, but you can throw it around just fine (Road and Track actually said they got a better time with an xA than the Mazda Miata in the slalom).

                  Both the xA and xB were discontinued after model year 2006.  There were no 2007 models for either.  The 2008 xB has cruise control and side air bags standard and is available now.  It's fuel economy dropped, though, because it's physically larger and has a much larger engine (the 2.4 liter from the Camry as opposed to the Echo's 1.5).  In a few months, the 2008 xD (which replaces the xA) will be out.  It also has side air bags and cruise control, but it's engine is a 1.8 liter never before used in a vehicle in the United States that provides more power with about the same fuel economy.

                  by Geotpf on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 11:24:32 AM PDT

                  •  I saw those changes.

                    The new xB is less attractive, IMHO, looking more like an HHR or PT Cruiser than a certified geek wagon.

                    And I wouldn't have purchased a car that gets lower gas mileage than my current xB.  I'd have sucked it up and gone with a more cramped car.

                    by nightsweat on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 11:39:17 AM PDT

                    •  Yeah, the new xB is a bit of a change

                      It's too soon to tell if new design is a good idea for Scion/Toyota or not (sales wise), but I've heard a lot of negative comments about it.  In some ways, the xD replaces both the xA and the old xB.

                      by Geotpf on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 02:24:48 PM PDT

              •  I'm told that the xB

                ...is not very comfortable on long car trips. Any truth to this?

                by PanzerMensch on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 08:27:33 AM PDT

              •  New Hartford? No shit?

                I'm right down the road aways in Clinton, and I have an xA.  So it's not the fastest car on the road.  It's fun as hell to drive , gets 35 MPG, and there's room for four TALL adults.  Bought my xA slightly used (and certified) from Steet myself.

                by republicans are idiots on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 08:57:31 AM PDT

          •  xA being replaced by xD

            Not a whole lot different, though the xD is based more on the Yaris platform than the xA was. It does have a bigger 1.8L engine to boost horsepower just a bit.

            by PanzerMensch on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 08:34:46 AM PDT

        •  Scion --- Ugliest car in automotive history. n/t

          by Kimball Cross on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 05:36:14 AM PDT

          •  it is

            I always seem to throw up a little when I see em

            by FreeTradeIsYourEpitaph on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 06:01:27 AM PDT

          •  You must be confusing the Scion with

            the Pontiac Aztec, which is by far the ugliest POS every produced by any car factory anywhere in the world at any time since Henry Ford introduced the assembly line.  

            by Mad Kossack on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 06:21:05 AM PDT

            •  Oh, no, it's the Scion all right.

              I know what the logo looks like. They look most horrible in black.

              by Kimball Cross on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 07:49:23 AM PDT

              •  the Scion is just

                an unaerodynamic block on wheels....but the Aztec is(was?) ASS ugly!

                by sooner on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 08:58:57 AM PDT

            •  looks like someone gave it a wedgie n/t

              by PanzerMensch on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 08:28:07 AM PDT

            •  PT Cruiser.

              Dear God, it's ugly!

              by djtyg on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 10:09:09 AM PDT

          •  Looks just like those awful

            East German Trabants.

            by corvo on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 08:09:52 AM PDT

        •  Have a 2006 xB

          LOVE it!  I get 29 real world miles per gallon.  It was rated 30/34, but that's an optimal number and I'm a big guy with a lead foot.  It's a little underpowered, but it's very responsive and maneuverable.

          All the other cars I tried out, the roof line hit me right at the eyes, so I had to hunch or lay backwards to drive.

          People who say its an ugly car they wouldn't drive are just telling you they're not cool enough to pull off driving one. :)

          by nightsweat on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 06:52:11 AM PDT

      •  Would you buy it again?

        What do you like/dislike about the Escape?

        by nightsweat on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 08:00:52 AM PDT

        •  How much time do you have?