Daily Kos

Filed under: No S#*t.

Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 12:23:12 PM PDT

Via TPM Election Central:

It's official: President Bush will veto any and all measures put forth by Congressional Dems to halt the Iraq War, according to a little-noticed letter from the White House to Carl Levin (D-MI), chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee.

The letter also says that the White House will veto any measure that would tie its hands on Iran -- including on military action inside that country.

That Bush will veto any such measures was expected, and isn't surprising. Nonetheless, the letter makes it official that Congressional Dems face the daunting prospect of having to muster a veto-proof majority on any Iraq or Iran measures. The little-noticed letter can be read right here.

Is this a "no s#*t" moment because, as TPM notes, it was expected? Well, sure. But I wanted to take a moment to remind you of this:

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice urged the Democratic-controlled U.S. Congress not to interfere in the conduct of the Iraq war and suggested President George W. Bush would defy troop withdrawal legislation.

I've shown it to you before, but let me highlight that again:

President George W. Bush would defy troop withdrawal legislation.

Not just veto. Defy.

Now, what call did the "administration" have in February to use that kind of language? Veto? Sure. But defy? Really?

Let's be honest. In all likelihood, most Washington players probably didn't take notice of that language, or didn't give it any real credence if they did. After all, that's insane, right? To just defy legislation?

But what do you think the Washington Wise Men would have told you about the prospects of pardoning Scooter Libby? What do you think they would have told you about the prospects of the "administration" defying Congressional subpoenas?

"That'd be crazy," they'd have said, right? "No president would risk that kind of affront to Congress and the American people."

And yet, here we are.

So here's a question: Now that we have been told the president is willing to trample the Constitution and defy legislation that pro-actively withdraws troops from Iraq, what theoretical hurdle stands in the way of his trampling it and defying even passive defunding?

Dick Cheney, whom we now know to have his hands on the actual levers of power in the White House, counts presidential budgetary impoundmentpowers among those he believes were wrongly usurped by Congress, and therefore still quite operative:

By refusing to issue contracts, Cheney revived a Nixon-era tactic of "impounding" funds -- refusing to spend money for programs that he didn't like. Congress had passed a law in 1974 to ban impoundment. Cheney, who later said he believes the anti-impoundment law unconstitutionally infringes on executive power, ignored it.

Now, granted, we're talking about an enormous amount of money. And it also should be said that Cheney hasn't yet said he believes impounded funds can be spent elsewhere. So this still lives in the realm of speculation.

But given this "administration's" penchant for inventing new legal and constitutional theories as the need arises, can anybody say with confidence that this isn't exactly how they intend to defy any legislative effort -- whether active or passive -- to end the occupation?

This is not an argument against attempting to defund the occupation of Iraq, or any other such operation. But you might consider it a thought exercise for those who insist that defunding answers the question definitively.

With this gang, you always have to ask, "What if it just... doesn't?"

  • ::

Tags: George W. Bush, Iraq, withdrawal, veto, Condoleezza Rice (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 285 comments

  •  Good God. (36+ / 0-)

    Get over to Russ Feingold's diary and tell him that impeachment is the only option.  Bush has gone rogue.

    "The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting." Sun Tzu

    Please support Barack Obama.

    by DaveV on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 12:17:56 PM PDT

    •  Yes, either impeach or ... (23+ / 0-)

      ... start figuring out how to deal with Bush/Cheney interfering with Election 2008.

      Do we really have to wait until 2008 is stolen from us before we start figuring out what to do?

      •  If they feel free to ignore Congress, (10+ / 0-)

        could Congress just start ignoring them?  Seriously.  Could they just say, well, your veto was interesting, but we've decided we're funding Stem Cell research anyway?  We've decided that your disapproval is meaningless and we're only providing military funding consistent with our goals of withdrawal.

        Now, go spread some peace, love and understanding. Use force if necessary. - Phil N DeBlanc

        by lineatus on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 12:30:24 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  They could, but they are trying to preserve (11+ / 0-)

          the Constitution rather than further undermining it which is why as much as it pisses a lot of people off they are trying to stick with the procedures that are Constitutional for the moment.

          In any case, the Executive Branch controls the flow of funds once they are appropriated so funding Stem Cell research is a nice theory, but the cash as this story showed might well simply held and not spent OR could end up being used to fund stuff like bombing Iran.

          •  I am happy that they're sticking to procedures (12+ / 0-)

            Really, truly.  But I have to say that this asymmetric battle sucks.  And truthfully, I'm surprised at the number of R's who are still letting them get away with it.  I really thought (naively) that most of them were, at root, honest people who just had a very different worldview.  It is really amazing to see how many of them are will to look the other way about all of this.  Just as a purely practical political matter, you'd think that they'd want to defend their party, even if they can't bring themselves to defend the constitution.

            Now, go spread some peace, love and understanding. Use force if necessary. - Phil N DeBlanc

            by lineatus on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 12:47:22 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I think most of the R's who are presently (8+ / 0-)

              serving in Congress have been carefully vetted to be the kind of people who would support a Republican dictatorship.

              In the past two days, I have had two conversations with two Republicans (one who worked for Reagan and Bush I) who are actually feeling as freaked out about the assertions that this President and Vice President are making as we are.

              I am not sure that Congressional Republicans care about elections.  I never ever thought any of them were honest people, but I never entertained the idea that they were dishonest enough not to care about even elections.  Now I am not so sure.

              •  So when do they invoke the "Continuity of Govt.". (5+ / 0-)

                That little Security Directive, and dissolve the government, declare martial law, and cancel the '08 elections.

                Anyone who would assume office after a law suit can't be trusted to leave.

                He's not Bambi, he's bulletproof.

                by Thaddaeus Toad on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 01:34:49 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Oddly, I don't think they'd ever cancel (4+ / 0-)

                  elections.  I think they understand that leaving a system in place that gives the appearance of normalcy is their best strategy.  That is how they have approached everything really.  Look at signing statements as a good example.  They let Congress do their thing, make public speeches, have their rancorous debates and then simply ignore any and all parts of legislation they don't intend to follow.  Overall, "The People" are under the impression that things are pretty normal and don't really notice that nothing has come of the entire play they just witnessed.

                  So... the Republicans just get another set of true-believers into the White House and then carry on - if the election doesn't go their way - that is when the questions about how they wriggle out of it come into play.  It is hard to tell how they would talk Americans out of their election results, but I would never put it past them to try.

                •  they invoke it... (2+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  Thaddaeus Toad, lineatus

                  between 11/07 and 1/08 if their caging efforts and Karl's other tricks fail and we win the election. BushCo launches an airstrike on Iran after a mildly lethal dirty bomb linked to terrists supplied by the QUDS force is detonated near Capitol Hill. Or, they invoke it between 11/07 and 1/08 if their caging efforts and Karl's other tricks succeed and we lose the election. in which case, the airstrike and dirty bomb are optional. now if you'll excuse me, i've got some reality TV on the DVR to catch up on...

                  "A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man."

                  by ghettoMuppet on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 02:04:59 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

          •  Re: Bombing Iran part - until and unless there's (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            inclusiveheart

            a War Resolution, a la Iraq (IWR 10/02, doesn't say anything about attacking Iran), or a Authorization for Use of Miltary Force, (post 9/11 AUMF, applied to al-Qaeda and states and groups that assisted it to carry out 9/11 attacks, only) the President can't (legally) do anything that amounts to a preemptive or aggressive act of war against Iran.

            Sorry, Dubya and Dick, but the status quo ante still applies.  They'll have to seek explicit Congressional approval prior to any military action.  The President can't declare war (or start a war that might last more than 60 days) without a vote by Congress.  What we saw yesterday from the Senate doesn't quite do it.

            That is, if we still have a Constitution in this country.  We do, don't we?

            •  Barbara Starr CNN White House Pentagon (4+ / 0-)

              mouthpiece seems to have a new spin on how we are fighting Iran in Iraq just about everyday now and 60 days is long enough to gin up support if Americans are getting killed.  So I dunno...

              It isn't like anyone was able to stop them from using monies appropriated for Afghanistan for Iraq planning.

              What are all those battleships doing in the Gulf without any authorization?  Where was that money allocated?  You see what I'm getting at here right?

              •  Sure I do, just like the money authorized for (2+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                inclusiveheart, dharmafarmer

                "humanitarian support" for the Contras that went to buy C-4 and claymore mines.  Or the money diverted from TOW missile sales to Iran to pay for cocaine flights from Honduras to Mena Airport.

                They can rationalize and actually do just about everything they want to, and never end up spending a day in jail for it.

        •  Yes they should do this (0+ / 0-)

          When someone is crazy you mirror their responses verbally. Bush is crazy.

          FUKUOKA: Part of my purpose is to create a society where no one has to do anything.PARACELSUS:So then, you wormy and lousy Sophist...

          by abbeysbooks on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 12:48:46 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  I suppose they could.... (0+ / 0-)

          .....but the bureaucracy isn't run by Congress so it wouldn't work.

          Every good Christian should line up and kick Jerry Falwell's ass. - Barry Goldwater, 1981

          by Doug in SF on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 02:26:48 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  I remain opposed to impeachment proceedings (14+ / 0-)

        but this is both frightening and grounds for me to pause. I'm honestly not terribly surprised at the underlying intent: I have always maintained that an administration as criminally reckless, tyrannical and downright insane as this one will not capitulate in its aggressive imperialistic adventure under any circumstance.

        But what is shocking is how brazen they've become: not only will they NEVER follow any legally binding mandate Congress might impose in regards to the war, but they're now willing to say so openly.

        Impeachment is the only way to in any way stop the madness before January 20, 2009. For now, I continue to oppose impeachment proceedings for the practical reasons I have stated so many times before. However, this letter is forcing me to rethink my position. At some point, the practical and realistic barriers to impeachment must give way to the moral imperative and duty to the nation and the Constitution. We may have reached that point.

        •  I think you would be in good company. (14+ / 0-)

          We all have different limits. At perhaps no time in our history has it made as much good sense to start examining what those limits are, as it does right now.

          Waste more of your day at The Next Hurrah.

          by Kagro X on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 01:01:53 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  I'll give you a rec for reconsideration, (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          marina

          but no points for a lack of urgency in your deliberations.

          •  I apologize for the above comment. (3+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            marina, 3goldens, soccergrandmom

            Too harsh and misdirected.  My anger is at some of the Dems for being so damn to careful not to offend anyone about withdrawing from Iraq.

            They're significantly weaker now than a few months ago.  Again they're playing the game by the other side's clock.  I'm afraid that they'll altogether miss the opportunity to take down Bush-Cheney before the next war starts.

            I'm sorry.

            •  The next war will be the last war (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              3goldens

              We have to stop them NOW. Cheney is not waiting, he is going full steam ahead, while the presses are still hot for neocon "adventures".

              Adventures for them, death and suffering for everyone else.

            •  Let's make some progress here (0+ / 0-)

              My anger is at some of the Dems for being so damn to careful not to offend anyone about withdrawing from Iraq.

              They're significantly weaker now than a few months ago.  Again they're playing the game by the other side's clock.  I'm afraid that they'll altogether miss the opportunity to take down Bush-Cheney before the next war starts

              leveymg

              I have been opposed to President Bush since Day 1, but using every chance to "take down" Bush is a waste of time, energy, and resources that could be better spent elsewhere. Do I like the fact that he is president, no. Do I accept it, yes. President Bush has put this country in the toilet, and will go down as one of the worst presidents in the history of this country. Nonetheless, he hasn't done anything that is an impeachable offense

              With that being the case, let's make some progress and work with the constraints we have: e.g. Bush as President, narrow Democratic majority, and try to get what we can done.

              The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results

              by political beil on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 05:16:09 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  Although I didn't support (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          marina, dharmafarmer

          impeachment either because I believed it would never result in conviction in the Senate, I no longer believe that's the case, at least, for Cheney.  He's the threat to the Constitution not that pathetic sock puppet soiling the carpets in the White House (no, not Barney).
          And, I take issue with Ms. Pelosi when she says impeachment is off the table - impeachment is never off the table.  The Constitution dictates that all officials of government, elected or appointed are subject to impeachment, without qualification, should the need arise. No member of Congress or the Senate, or the entire body, for that matter, can "take it off the table".

          Liberalism is trust of the people tempered by prudence. Conservatism is distrust of the people tempered by fear." W.E. Gladstone -8.25 / -5.64

          by carver on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 02:11:56 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Don't pass the Defense Budget (6+ / 0-)

          The Dems' best weapon is not to pass a budget. As I said in my post at TNH, if McConnell won't allow a vote on any measure with a troop withdrawal in it, fine. Don't pass the damn Defense budget. Remember, 70 f'ing percent of the people don't want this war.

          Pass the HHS budget so if Cheney wants to impound money, he can impound Social Security and Medicare funds first. McConnell will be crucified in his own state if he holds that money up--the Red states are the ones that depend most on federal payments. We'll have Grannies with Pitchforks if that happens.

          And as for cancelling contracts, they have so perverted the government that most of the contract money goes to Cheney's buds anyway.

          The Dems have completely misread 1996. Gingrich lost that battle when he "shut down" government by refusing to pass a budget because Clinton was popular and so were the programs the GOP wanted to cut. Now it is just the opposite. Bush is below freezing in popularity and the public hates him and his war.

          If there were ever a time to call their bluff, it is now. You can't wait for the Reichstag fire to get outraged.

          "Do not forget that every people deserves the regime it is willing to endure." ---The White Rose, 1942

          by Mimikatz on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 03:08:19 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  defy is fighting words (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          marina

          the archaic meaning of defy is "to challenge to combat." It is bush's and cheney's fighting words that they will continue to escalate their battle to wipe out congress and courts. this is a war on our constitution and our democracy. even troops are not safe, as now bush has claimed executive privilege to keep secrets from the Tillman investigation.

        •  We have reached that point where (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          dharmafarmer

          impeachment is a moral imperative and duty to the nation and the Constitution.

          When the President instructs his former aides that they can simply ignore Congressional subpoenas it is obvious that he is way out of the bounds of law, tradition, and moral duty.  Impeachment is now beyond "appropriate" - it is neccessary.

          An illusion can never be destroyed directly... SK.

          by Thomas Twinnings on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 04:25:22 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  King George and Prince Dick... (0+ / 0-)

        Impeach the bastahds!

    •  I hope Bush does "defy" all such legislation... (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Kestrel, 3goldens

      ...he'll drag the Republican Party into oblivion for a generation if he does.  Hell, we might even win the South again.

    •  What do you mean "gone?" (12+ / 0-)

      That implies that he obeyed the Constitution at one time, just as saying he was "re"-elected in '04 implies that he was elected in '00.

      I'm glad that W sent this letter, just as I'm glad that his former counsel brazenly defied a duly issued subpoena yesterday.  It's like Hitler declaring war on the US on 12/11/41, and it's like the CSA opening fire on Fort Sumter in 1861.  It's better to have your opponent remove any and all ambiguities about his intentions.

      These people believe that 9/11 abrogated the Constitution.  Everything else is detail.  In the view of this WH, checks and balances, habeas corpus, Art I of the Constitution, the Geneva Conventions, the Bill of Rights, FISA, and just about everything else that made ours a civilized society collapsed along w/ the twin towers.  

      Whether such an epic intelligence failure occurred due to mere incompetence or due to something worse is another story for another day.  What can no longer be postponed, however, is a reckoning w/ an utterly out of control WH that respects neither God nor man.  We can no longer pretend that there is room for compromise or room for negotiations w/ this WH.

      I'm willing to wait a little longer for a determination as to whether impeachment proceedings will be commenced against Gonzo and/or Cheney.  I am no longer willing, however, for impeachment to be placed back on a table from which it should never have been removed.  Pelosi made a huge mistake on this issue last year.  It is long past time for her to rectify that obvious mistake this year.

      The WH has laid down the gauntlet once and for all.  Do the Dems have the guts to pick it up?

      Some men see things as they are and ask why. I see things that never were and ask why not?

      by RFK Lives on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 12:35:33 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Iran, Too???!!!??? (14+ / 0-)

    No fuckin' way.

    Congress has the untimate constitutional authority to declare war
    (or authorize force as the current weenies do).

    If Bush moves on Iran, then Congress MUST impeach immediately.  
    Otherwise, just pack your bags for the FEMA camps.

    •  There's a fine line with limited military action (9+ / 0-)

      For example, after the embassy bombings in Africa, President Clinton wasn't obligated to go to Congress to approve the limited airstrikes he took against Al Qaeda-linked targets in Afghanistan and Sudan.

      The difference between that and what Bush is poised to do is that Clinton did not create a de facto war.  Actions contemplated by Bush in Iran would have regional - and potentially WMD counterattack implications - and should only be contemplated in a formal declaration of war.

      Bush is essentially saying that he has the exclusive power to start and end wars.  This can not stand.  It is the direct consequence of years of Congressional wimpiness, deferring its exclusive constitutional power to declare war to executive discretion.

      We're pro-choice on everything! - Libertarian slogan

      by CA Libertarian on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 12:34:37 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  That.. to me.. is the (6+ / 0-)

      scariest part of the letter. He's basically saying.. I'll do whatever the fuck I want to.

      "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect." Mark Twain

      by dotdot on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 01:12:14 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Bush will claim (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      johnnygunn, marina, dewley notid

      the original legislation providing him war powers is sufficient authorization to carry the combat to Iran.  

      After all - if the entire bill of rights has been ruled "inoperative" - who the hell cares about one little letter.  Just white out the "Q", pencil in an "N" and away we go.

      This time we're bound to be greeted as liberators.  

      Do you want to know who you are? Don't ask. Act! Action will delineate and define you. --- Thomas Jefferson

      by Wandering Hoo on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 01:19:32 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Uh huh (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      johnnygunn, Thomas Twinnings

      Because Congress will be willing to oppose the President after he has put troops in harms way.  Right.  Uh huh.  

      Keep dreaming.  As soon as Bush orders a strike on Iran, Congress will fall in line -- to support the troops, to support our national security, and in the interests of protecting the nation.  

      The framers of our Constitution never imagined that Congress would be so loath to assert its prerogatives, especially where, as with the power to make war, they are assigned to Congress, not the President.  

      "Terror is nothing other than justice...; it is ... the general principle of democracy applied to our country's most urgent needs." M. Robespierre

      by Bartimaeus Blue on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 01:36:38 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I've been saying this for months (10+ / 0-)

    All the whining here on DailyKos that the democrats should do "more" to stop this war, all the bellyaching and trashing of democrats here is just plain pathetic.

    There is only ONE way we can end this war: Elect a democrat president in 2008.

    That's it.

    I'm glad everyone here wants to see Pelosi defund the war, but newsflash people:  The BushCo Cabal will simply reroute other funds to keep his videogame war of ego going until he's pulled from power in 2009.  

    The truth is the dems can't stop this war.  All we can do is try to limit the damage as much as possible until we can end it in 2009.

    The circular firing squads here on DailyKos have been unbearable.  People seem to think a 50/49 senate is somehow supposed to shut down a lawless president still backed by a lockstep koolaid drinking republican party.  It is an impossibility.

    •  Worse than that (7+ / 0-)

      It's not a 50-49 Senate regarding Iraq. It's 49-50, thanks to the voters of Connecticut. Are you getting this, "why can't the Dems get us out of Iraq" screamers? We are in the MINORITY on this issue in the United States Senate. A few Republican defectors isn't enough, either. It's still 60 to stop a filibuster, and 67 to override a veto.

      The Bush Family: 0 for 4 in Wisconsin

      by Korkenzieher on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 12:28:59 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I think they get it. (13+ / 0-)

        Whoever the "screamers" are. But you're talking about active defunding, whereas they're generally talking about passive defunding. That is, declining to pass funding in the first place, which takes no votes at all.

        You can debate the relative wisdom and/or efficacy of that. But you have to recognize first that that's what they're talking about, and not the thing you want to use to beat them up with the "screamers" epithet.

        Waste more of your day at The Next Hurrah.

        by Kagro X on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 12:34:50 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  It's simple. War takes money. Money comes from (9+ / 0-)

          218 votes in the House and 51 votes in the Senate.  Also, all the money bills must originate in the House.  You don't got those votes, you don't get the money.  Filibuster raises NO money, you don't need a filibuster proof majority to cut off money, anybody says that is looking for an excuse to keep voting money to the Bu$hCo lunatic.

          You have exactly 10 seconds to change that look of disgusting pity into one of enormous respect!

          by Cartoon Peril on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 12:39:05 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  They're not printing the money, though. (9+ / 0-)

            It exists somewhere.

            Stop appropriating it, and it still exists, right?

            And presumably under executive control.

            What you're saying is that without 218 votes in the House and 51 votes in the Senate, it's not legal to take it and spend it. I acknowledge that.

            But if you're announced your intention to defy the law, what would be the barrier to simply taking the money?

            Waste more of your day at The Next Hurrah.

            by Kagro X on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 01:04:11 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  only a revolution. (4+ / 0-)

              You have exactly 10 seconds to change that look of disgusting pity into one of enormous respect!

              by Cartoon Peril on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 01:25:00 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Yep... (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                Cartoon Peril

                ..because it's been shown that the Democratic Party will not be changed by putting their "feet to the fire".

                Time to take matters in our own hands folks. Running it down the drain within official democratic party circles is getting us nowhere.

                We gave you a chance, you betrayed us.-Cindy Sheehan

                by Zero Carb Rob on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 01:53:53 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  As McJoan notes below, $10bn/month... (12+ / 0-)

              isn't going to be found in the WH couches.  I guess, in theory, they could transfer appropriated funds from other agencies by executive fiat.  It would be hard to do, and not sending grandma her SS check so that Blackwater could make its quarterly profit would cause some political problems.

              The WH has already passed so many tipping points that I'm not sure what it'll take for Congress to start taking impeachment seriously.  I would hope that this tipping point, however, would be enough.

              Some men see things as they are and ask why. I see things that never were and ask why not?

              by RFK Lives on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 01:28:40 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  US Dept. of the Treasury - Financial Mgmt. Svc. (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              marina

              If it's anything like a state government, which I think it is...

              This bureau is essentially the bank account of the United States - the IRS deposits funds here and the other executive agencies draw funds against it.

              The President can defy Congress and order the spending of money, Congress can bring charges of Contempt of Congress in US District Court in DC with the civil service official that oversees financial operations in the US Treasury Dept.

              If you tie up the civil service, the checks don't get issued and EVERYTHING gets defunded.

            •  That is what Iran-Contra was about (0+ / 0-)

              It is bright line illegal to spend money not appropriated by Congress in most cases. The exceptions are defined. An example is found in the non appropriated fund activities dealing with military recreation that are supported from other sources such as (I believe) exchange sales. Interior has fee programs and non appropriated funding for some park activities I believe. There are others of that sort. For all major things the appropriation essentially creates the "money" and funding those activities outside the appropriation is a crime.

              That is what Iran-Contra was all about. That is one of the "nibbling" things I had in mind in an earlier post where gradual erosion leads to eventual disaster. The penalty for Iran-Contra was a wrist slap. In reality it was grounds to impeach and convict the "great" RR. Failure there "nibbled" ground from under our feet now, but enough remains.

              For the political reasons repeatedly seen here I don't see any drastic reduction of funds for Iraq. What interests me much more is using line item vanishing to start hitting this feeding shark of an administration on the nose. Appropriated funds come in line items. That is why presidents keep asking for line item veto power. They could pick and choose rather than veto entire authorizations containing things they need.

              The House has absolute line item veto power. It takes no real up or down vote. They just fail to address certain line items. In the budget resolution that line item simply does not have anything or a only a pittance. In my opinion it would be difficult to do much about that when the majority votes the thing out empty. It hits the Senate. "Huh? What happened to (whatever)?" Hard to filibuster what isn't there.

              Senate amendments to put something back hit the same wall Democrats are hitting with the sixty votes. They die. Eventually it passes or they kill the whole thing so all line items die. Hard to explain that to the public! We failed to pass the budget resolution because some of the administration's favorite little scams just vanished. Democrats loftily mention "paying for the war" is why that line item funding something like certain executive jet fuel supplies, travel, items that feed "faith based" initiatives and such just vanished.

              I believe it would be equally hard for Bush to explain just why he has to veto a bill with things the public knows and wants just because some obscure item critical to them has not been appropriated. Remember, there are multiple budget resolutions funding batches of departments and efforts. Those are in the works because all authorizations die at the last gasp of September.

              I hope House Democrats have staff diligently scanning those line items for things that would be like an electric stunner to a shark's nose. It is a dull knife, but it is a certain knife I think. Though some money can be "reprogrammed" there are fair legal walls between these line items. Even with the failure to finish making an example on Iran-Contra this can be a clear, easily explained impeachment charge: "You wrote a bad check" in popular terms.

              The only foes that threaten America are the enemies at home, and those are ignorance, superstition, and incompetence. [Elbert Hubbard]

              by pelagicray on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 10:16:43 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  Screamers (6+ / 0-)

          Cindy Sheehan is a screamer, metaphorically speaking. The people who ambushed and harangued Dave Obey a while back are screamers. They're out there, they're impatient, and they're hurting their own cause.

          Funding hasn't stopped, not merely because of the rules of the Senate, but also because of the public opinion polls. We liberals and progressives think they should defund, but last time I looked a majority of the people thought that defunding the war would hurt our troops in the field. I'm not interested in Congress doing something that would get Bush and the American people on the same page again.

          I know it sucks, and I know it's hard, and I don't like it either, but Congress is a deliberate body that moves slowly. It was designed to be thus. I see Dems slowly ratcheting up the pressure, I see Republicans slowly defecting from Bush's ranks, and I believe that's the best approach to get us out of there. The Cindy Sheehans of the world, well-intended and honorable though they are, are simply making progess more difficult by their understandable impatience.

          The Bush Family: 0 for 4 in Wisconsin

          by Korkenzieher on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 12:48:15 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  We know why funding hasn't stopped. (0+ / 0-)

            But again, that's not actually what's under discussion here.

            Waste more of your day at The Next Hurrah.

            by Kagro X on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 01:06:37 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  I agree with the general tenor of your post, (0+ / 0-)

            Korkenzeir, when it concerns your personal impatience with the glacial speed of progress (although that is probably not a particularly good analogy in face of global warming) but cannot agree that the Cindy Sheehans or other 'screamers' as you term them who have reched their personl limits, are merely hurting the cause - the cause is not a monolith and certainly Mrs. Sheehan may be hurting her stated objective but if she does she will merely burn up like a comet  immolated in its own fire.  i do not see her as an asteroid about to destroy the Democratic planet.

            There are many 'Cindy Sheehan's' of the world as you so patronisingly put it, Joan of Arc was one, Malcolm X another.  Screaming has proved a remarkably effective way to raise your own voice over the cacophany of the mob, especially if you have already made the determination that freedom's just another way of nothing left to lose. Stop dumping the frustrations of the electorate on her shoulders. No one approach has proved remarkably effective so far.  These are pretty desperate times.

            Only history is going to show who's way is the right way and who's the wrong. Bob Marley sang 'I want to disturb my neighbours'.

          •  Strategy (0+ / 0-)

            I believe that's the best approach to get us out of there. The Cindy Sheehans of the world, well-intended and honorable though they are, are simply making progess more difficult by their understandable impatience.

            Korkenzieher

            I tend to agree with this.  Time and resources would be better spent on moving things forward, as opposed to criticizing the administration every chance they get: i.e. criticism for the sake of criticism. Holding hearings and challenging Bush's claims of executive privilege (even if it means a judicial battle) is a better way than impeachment. The reason is Democrats have far less to lose in political capital while still attempting to fix the problem.  

            The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results

            by political beil on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 07:37:02 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  Its not a 50-49 (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        PsychoSavannah, Korkenzieher

        if you exclude the Blue Dogs.  They all voted against the supplementary that included a timeline.  That actually gives the republicans a majority vote.


        The religious fanatics didn't buy the republican party because it was virtuous, they bought it because it was for sale

        by nupstateny on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 12:40:35 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  That's only part of the story (0+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        kyril

        The pro-impeachment crowd have to consider what moves like this mean for ANY action the Congress might take. Let's say that W and Cheney were both impeached and removed from office by Congress? What do you think they would do? Resign like Nixon did? Recognize the action by Congress and leave office?

        Please. They'd push this thing far beyond anything we've seen in the the history of this country, probably by refusing to recognize the authority the Congress to remove them from power, and by ordering the executive branch departments to defy any orders from the Congress, including the Defense Department and the DOJ. Then it would be really a test of whether those departments, staffed through and through with Bush loyalists, would defy the President or the Congress. If it happened today, what do you think would happen?

        Success in limiting their ability to do that means preparing the country for that type of fight. It means ratcheting up the pressure gradually so the administration takes more drastic actions response, hopefully shaking the country out of its funk and seeing these people for what they really are. When that happens you might have the type of environment where the white house loses control of the executive branch itself, and has no choice by to comply.  

    •  Reroute them from where? (12+ / 0-)

      No other budget is as large as the war budget. Seriously, the amount of money it takes to keep this war going--$10 billion a month--isn't just out there for him to siphon off of other programs. It just isn't.

      Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -- Ben Franklin

      by mcjoan on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 12:39:43 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  So what are we supposed to do? (6+ / 0-)

      Sit back and take it up the ass until January 2009?  Is that supporting the troops?  Will that prevent Bush and Cheney from bankrupting us until we have no resources left to save anything?  Will that save the Constitution?

      There will be no way for any Democrat to fix this mess in 2009 - that's Bush's goal - to make it impossible for anyone to get us out of Iraq.  To make it impossible for this nation to ever return to the policies and principles that guided us in the past.

      The Democrats could do alot to try and change things if they wanted to. Yeah, the numbers are against us in the Senate.  BUT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ARE WITH USE. The Dems could force the Republicans to stage real filibusters in the Senate for all the people to see.  They could hold daily press briefings entitled "Things the Republicans Blocked Today".  They could call upon the American people to call their Republican representatives and put pressure upon them.

      I read somewhere that Rep. Rush Holt said that he is against impeachment because the American people don't understand the crimes Bush has committed.  Well, if the American people are not capable of understanding the need for impeachment, then how does he expect them to understand that the Democrats tried to fix things, but the Republicans used arcane procedures to block votes.  All the people will see is that the Democrats failed to stand up to Bush, failed to stop the war, failed to do what they promised in November 2006.  That is a recipe for failure, not victory.

      Any party that would lie to start a war would also steal an election.

      by landrew on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 12:44:03 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I agree, Win, but you're missing something. (3+ / 0-)

      There must be some value in forcing Bush to "defy" Congress over and over again.  In addition to establishing a record, it keeps the WH bogged down in defensive measures instead of, say, nuking Iran and it keeps Iraq in the news.  It puts additional pressure the Dipshit and his gang, as well as on the Republican and Democratic enablers, and it puts the Dems on record as trying their damnedest to get us out of this awful mess.  Also, from what little I know about Nixon...it was the relentless little pressures that caused that house of cards to fall.

      •  agreed 100% (4+ / 0-)

        I think it's a PR game at this point, which is all we can do.  That's why attempting to defund makes no sense.  The war won't get defunded, and Bush will then blame the entire fiasco on the democrats.  

        But what irks me is so many here on DailyKos shrieking that in the 6+ months since dems achieved power, we haven't been able to strip a lunatic lawless president and his complicit zombies in congress of their power.

        It just ain't gonna happen that way.  

        It's as you say.  We expose.  We force him to defy law after law.  We get the wingnuts in congress on the record as pro-war, and we go for the victory in 2008.  Then and only then will we end the war.

        But blaming the razor thin dem majorities for not doing more in the fact of this lunatic president is the circular firing squad that accomplishes NOTHING.

    •  Hope for that figurative "live boy or dead girl" (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      soccergrandmom

      People seem to think a 50/49 senate is somehow supposed to shut down a lawless president still backed by a lockstep koolaid drinking republican party.  It is an impossibility.

      I keep hearing "impeachment" as if that does anything practical with regard to removal. At the moment it does not. Too many of the Republican Senators are set on putting party above country--perhaps they even confuse the two as being the same. For a short time I really thought they would at least stand up for their office if Bush defied Congress. They seem to prefer to sit full of empty prestige in neutered, useless branch rather than honor its purpose under the Constitution. Impeachment with conviction will only become vaguely possible if oversight turns up a real shocker equivalent to Edwin Edward's (once Governor of Louisiana) quip about being immune unless he was found in bed with a live boy or dead girl. By the way, just for fun, the famous "Vote for the crook. It is necessary" was a "liberal" slogan in the election in which the choice was "good ole Edwin" or a KKK wizard.

      That is still possible. I lived through Watergate. I worked in D.C. and lived in nearby Maryland. It seemed nearly nothing, it flared and died and then it got traction. Of course things have changed. Our "news" is only a pale shadow of those days, it is only "media" under entertainment divisions. Still, something may develop. If it does not my view is that terrible precedents have been set that have wounded the Constitutional rule I've known perhaps forever.

      I've long thought the silver bullet might be a detailed and carefully targeted emptying of budget line items. One cannot veto what simply is not there. I think that still has promise, but this piece raises serious and frightening questions about that approach.

      4 straight terms of a politburo will cause damage from which this republic may never recover.

      Exactly. This is a hard, very hard, lesson in what happens when the citizens become "consumers" and "customers" of their government without jealously guarding their rights as owners of that government. It reminds one of the poem attributed to Niemöller, the one "first they came for . . ." and how these deaths of freedom often come at the end of a long nibbling process accompanied by twisted propaganda. "Yeah, they've got a point . . .", "No difference to me, I'm not one of them" and at the end our last defender is weak and the courts are stacked so our defenders may not even have honest judgment there.

      This is going to be long, hard and damned "iffy" unless we get really lucky. Democrats did not "win in 2006." They won select districts that gave them a thin majority in the House and a nearly theoretical one in the Senate. They must fight a skillful holding action until we have another shot that absolutely must be won. That requires every person horrified by this almost complete coup to vow they will not sit that election out and will not waste their final vote.

      The only foes that threaten America are the enemies at home, and those are ignorance, superstition, and incompetence. [Elbert Hubbard]

      by pelagicray on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 05:10:55 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I need more tin foil... (23+ / 0-)

    honestly, it was semi-snark the other day when I say I thought that Cheney/Bush have no intention of leaving the White House in 2009.

    Now...well, I'm really not so sure.

    The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it -- GB Shaw

    by kmiddle on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 12:20:24 PM PDT