Daily Kos

Domestic spying cases on tap today

Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 09:07:34 AM PDT

The 9th Circuit Court of Appeals today hears two key cases on the NSA's (previously) illegal warrantless domestic surveillance programs.

How's it looking?

Here's case one:

In 2003, Room 641A of a large telecommunications building in downtown San Francisco was filled with powerful data-mining equipment for a "special job" by the National Security Agency, according to a former AT&T technician. It was fed by fiber-optic cables that siphoned copies of e-mails and other online traffic from one of the largest Internet hubs in the United States, the former employee says in court filings.

What occurred in the room is now at the center of a pivotal legal battle in a federal appeals court over the Bush administration's controversial spying program, including the monitoring that came to be publicly known as the Terrorist Surveillance Program.

[Today], a three-judge panel will hear arguments on whether the case, which may provide the clearest indication yet of how the spying program has worked, can go forward. So far, evidence in the case suggests a massive effort by the NSA to tap into the backbone of the Internet to retrieve millions of e-mails and other communications, which the government could sift and analyze for suspicious patterns or other signs of terrorist activity, according to court records, plaintiffs' attorneys and technology experts.

And where do we stand?

Neither AT&T nor the federal government has admitted even the existence of a secret room, and the Justice Department is arguing that the cases should be dismissed because their subject matter is a state secret. The communications company, meanwhile, says it is prevented from properly defending itself because of national security reasons and dismisses the employee who briefly saw the room and worked on supporting equipment as a "line technician who . . . never had access to the 'secret room' he purports to describe."

Hmm. Second case?

The second case centers on the disbanded al-Haramain charity and two of its attorneys, who say they were given -- and then forced to return -- a Treasury Department document showing that they had been the focus of NSA surveillance.

Oh! That's good, right? They actually have evidence of the spying!

So how's that one going?

Oakland lawyer Jon Eisenberg calls the case of Al-Haramain Islamic Foundation v. George W. Bush the strangest he has ever handled. How strange? Eisenberg was required to write one of his briefs in a windowless government office, without notes or lawbooks, under the watchful eye of two federal security guards.

When he got hungry, one of the guards brought him a banana. And when he finished, a security official shredded all his drafts — and even the banana peel, Eisenberg said.

I see.

So, what exactly is at stake?

[Today's] hearing will focus only on whether the two lawsuits should be dismissed on the basis of the government's assertion of a "state secrets privilege." The outcome could determine whether the courts will ever rule on the legality of surveillance conducted by the NSA without judicial oversight between 2001 and January 2007, when the Bush administration first subjected the program to the scrutiny of a special intelligence court.

"If the courts take the position that the state-secrets privilege prevents the case from going forward, I think effectively there'll never be a decision about the legality of the program," said Cindy Cohn, the Electronic Frontier Foundation's legal director. "I think it's tremendously important for that."

Looks like we should get a fair shake, though, based on everything else that's happened. Right?

  • ::

Tags: FISA, warrantless wiretapping, domestic spying, NSA (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 132 comments

  •  Bananas are dangerous. (nt) (6+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    srkp23, KOTCrum, FXDCI, ArgusRun, kyril, lenzy1000
  •  We need our rights protected by someone (6+ / 0-)

    We will have been let down by all three branches if they don't find this behavior reprehensible and make it stop!

    •  That's easy to answer (9+ / 0-)

      but I can't tell you what the answer is, because it's a state secret.

      "The Power to change this party, and the power to change this country is in your hands, not mine." - Gov. Howard Dean, MD

      by deaniac83 on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 09:29:22 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  That one had me scratching my head. n/t (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Mother of Zeus, kyril

      The time has come for someone to put his foot down. And that foot is me.

      by FXDCI on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 09:29:25 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  hmmm.... (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      kyril

      well, let's see.  Only a place that does exist can have restricted access, right?  I mean, I can go anywhere I want to in a place that exists only in my mind, right?  Unless, of course, the adminstration has begun to restrict access even to imaginary places.

      anyone but a Republican (-8.00/-7.23)

      by slynch on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 09:39:22 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  It does exist: (9+ / 0-)

      The room anyway.

      "The Owl that calls upon the Night,
      Speaks the Unbeliever's fright." - William Blake

      by Night Owl on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 09:41:47 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Dubious (0+ / 0-)

        If this existed, the central office techs would have to have access to it in order for it to be tied to either the mainframe or the switch or transport facilities. If this were the case, every CO tech in San Francisco and all the outside maintenance people would know about it. Furthermore, that's a drop ceiling. Anyone could gain entrance to the room in less than five minutes using only a simple step ladder.

        There are ways to monitor communications traffic, of course. AT&T is developing new ways to do it as well. They don't need anything as clumsy and as stereotypically cloak and dagger as a "secret room" in a place that's as unsecret as a central office.

        The Bush Family: 0 for 4 in Wisconsin

        by Korkenzieher on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 09:57:54 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Talk to EFF (3+ / 0-)

          They filed the law suit, and they are the ones who say this is the room at the central office.

          They don't need anything as clumsy and as stereotypically cloak and dagger as a "secret room" in a place that's as unsecret as a central office.

          The 'central office' is important because that is where one of the major traffic hubs is located.

          Basically, this building sits on a mountain of fiber - the perfect place for someone looking to monitor all INET traffic traffic to jack in.

          "The Owl that calls upon the Night,
          Speaks the Unbeliever's fright." - William Blake

          by Night Owl on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 10:12:30 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Central offices (3+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Night Owl, ChemGeek, Atheinostic

            I work in an AT&T central office. I'm sitting in one now as I type this. They don't absolutely need to be co-located in a CO to perform their surveillance. They could have fiber nodes in buildings far more secure than an ordinary CO would be. I'm not saying they absolutely didn't do this; they could have and from a technical standpoint it'd make sense. But they can also accomplish what they want to accomplish remotely, in a building with secured access, without the risk of one of my colleagues, or former colleagues, ratting them out, as it were. It's hard to believe they'd tolerate the security risk of putting it in an AT&T building when they don't have to do so.

            The Bush Family: 0 for 4 in Wisconsin

            by Korkenzieher on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 10:47:19 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Why build (3+ / 0-)

              They don't absolutely need to be co-located in a CO to perform their surveillance. They could have fiber nodes in buildings far more secure than an ordinary CO would be.

              when you can rent for free? Especially when everything you need is already there for you and far less likely to be notice by GAO auditors than a government facility constructed from scratch.

              I work in an AT&T central office. I'm sitting in one now as I type this.

              Watch your back.  SF isn't the only place this is going on.

              In 2003 AT&T built "secret rooms" hidden deep in the bowels of its central offices in various cities, housing computer gear for a government spy operation which taps into the company's popular WorldNet service and the entire internet. These installations enable the government to look at every individual message on the internet and analyze exactly what people are doing. Documents showing the hardwire installation in San Francisco suggest that there are similar locations being installed in numerous other cities.

              "The Owl that calls upon the Night,
              Speaks the Unbeliever's fright." - William Blake

              by Night Owl on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 11:20:35 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  The best place to hide (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Night Owl, Heartcutter

          something is in plain sight, even a secret room.  These rooms are all over the country.  This room was discovered by an AT&T employee.  It is clear that they can filter all domestic internet traffic.

          Do you know the difference between education and experience? Education is when you read the fine print; experience is what you get when you don't. Pete Seeger

          by Mas Gaviota on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 10:40:18 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  I could show you a great brew-pub (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Night Owl

        within walking distance of this secret room, but I don't think you are authorized to have that information.

      •  where's the doorknob? (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Night Owl, ChemGeek, lenzy1000

        ;-)

        •  very devious (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          pickandshovel

          But following Korkenzieher's suggestion above, it appears that access to the room is strictly controlled and requires a step ladder (photo, right) to gain entrance through secret portal in drop ceiling (exposed, photo, top).

          Damn these NSA guys are sneaky.

          No photographic evidence of moose and squirrel, however.

        •  It's the back door (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          ChemGeek, pickandshovel, lenzy1000

          Here's the front:

          641a

          source

          "The Owl that calls upon the Night,
          Speaks the Unbeliever's fright." - William Blake

          by Night Owl on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 10:41:54 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  What about all those dangling cables (0+ / 0-)

            from the top of the ceiling? They don't seem to be tapped and they could have carried the convo about the ICBM launch event from the caves of Afghanistan.

            Words are, of course, the most powerful drug used by mankind. Rudyard Kipling

            by brave little park on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 10:56:02 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Laugh it up pal (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              ChemGeek

              Its really funny that places like this exist, isn't it?

              The government trampling all over our Constitutional rights? Yeah that's hysterical.

              "The Owl that calls upon the Night,
              Speaks the Unbeliever's fright." - William Blake

              by Night Owl on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 11:08:09 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  No I wasn't implying such places are funny. (3+ / 0-)

                I am familiar with the Mark Klein/EFF/AT&T case and the photos you shared of the "Study Group" room #3, thanks. I agree these secret rooms and the activity of copying of all domestic and international data is outrageous. I was making the point of the absurdity of the government's efforts at "Total Information Awareness" supposedly aimed at Middle Eastern terrorists that do not even have the technology to attack the US (9/11 was made possible by our technology) which to me says more about to their main purpose as intelligence gathering on US citizens themselves.

                Words are, of course, the most powerful drug used by mankind. Rudyard Kipling

                by brave little park on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 11:50:19 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Places like this (0+ / 0-)

                It doesn't bother me that places like this exist. It does bother me that no court order is required for the government to be allowed to use them.

                The Bush Family: 0 for 4 in Wisconsin

                by Korkenzieher on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 11:53:47 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  love your quote (3+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Night Owl, ChemGeek, junta0201

            many former soviet citizens who I know have related their life's story over time. They lived in fear often, so often that they becmae numb to it.

            Our government has been feeding our fear bone for 6 yrs. So far, they have been successful, taking one of the proudest, bravest and giving countries, truly a place where the streets were paved with gold,

            Bush.Cheney changed all that.

            While our CIA activies in the 50s and 60s were unknown to many Americans, they were infamous in Greece, Chile, Turkey, Egypt, and many other countries. Even so, our aggressiveness and underhanded dealings were below the surface. Now, we are naked, aggressive, war-loving, heavily armed and unconcerned about civilian casualties. We now torture, abuse, detain, and spy on everyone, including our own people, without the slightest hint of supervision, court approval or responsibility. And the man who has these new powers? A nam who lies to congress without blinking an eye.

            Fear? we are living with it now and as a result, we are no longer a civilized nation.

            What we call god is merely a living creature with superior technology & understanding. If their fragile egos demand prayer, they lose that superiority.

            by agnostic on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 11:34:37 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Thanks agnostic (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              ChemGeek, agnostic

              For me, the whole point of civilization is to remove us from our fears of the jungle from whence we sprang.  But our fight or flight instincts are always lurking below the surface, ready for unsavory demagogues to tap into any time they lust for power.

              While our CIA activies in the 50s and 60s were unknown to many Americans, they were infamous in Greece, Chile, Turkey, Egypt, and many other countries.

              The greatest American myth has always been 'it can't happen here'.    

              There was never any reason that those authoritarian strategies and tactics the US Government used on citizens of other countries (spying, police intimidation, election rigging, false flags, etc.) would not eventually be used on its own.

              Like the Golem, we created this  monster for the purpose of protecting us, and now it has turned on us.  

              "The Owl that calls upon the Night,
              Speaks the Unbeliever's fright." - William Blake

              by Night Owl on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 12:08:05 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  All the secure compartmented facilities I've (0+ / 0-)

        worked in had combination locks on the doors.

        The influence of the [executive] has increased, is increasing, and ought to be diminished.

        by lysias on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 11:53:05 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Yup (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          lysias, ChemGeek

          The normal work force of unionized technicians in the office are forbidden to enter the "secret room," which has a special combination lock on the main door. The telltale sign of an illicit government spy operation is the fact that only people with security clearance from the National Security Agency can enter this room. In practice this has meant that only one management-level technician works in there. Ironically, the one who set up the room was laid off in late 2003 in one of the company's endless "downsizings," but he was quickly replaced by another.

          link

          "The Owl that calls upon the Night,
          Speaks the Unbeliever's fright." - William Blake

          by Night Owl on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 12:11:06 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  what worker? (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Night Owl, kyril

      I know nothing! Nothing!

      McCain just flushed his own campaign by his appearance at the FBF on Aug 16th, 2008.

      by shpilk on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 09:42:13 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  How can you have access to nothing? (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Night Owl

      If he had access to the room, he'd be able to get into it, right? But, it doesn't exist, so he cannot get into it, so he doesn't have access.

      "A implies B" is the same as "NOT B implies NOT A".

      Plus, there's the question of who grants you access to a non-existent room -- do you need approval from the non-existent VP of Nothing?

      (-7.38,-2.51) 76% of dKos readers think I'm a secret wing-nut operative!

      by Gustavo on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 10:02:33 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Now Bush will use satellites against us. (14+ / 0-)

    Now Bush will use Satellites to spy on us.

    Raw Story

    Information from "some of the U.S.'s most powerful intelligence-gathering tools" will soon be at the disposal of a wide array of law enforcement agencies at all levels of government, reports Robert Block in the Journal Wednesday. Director of National Intelligence Michael McConnell decided to increase access to the spy data earlier this year and asked Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff to facilitate access to the spy data by civilian agencies and law enforcement.

    Previously, access to only the most basic spy-sattelite data was limited to a handful of federal civilian agencies, such as NASA and the US Geological Survey, which used the images for scientific and environmental study.

    The move to turn spy satellites on American citizens raises legal questions because the use of such data for law enforcement is "largely uncharted territory." Even the officials behind the move were unsure of its legal implications, the Journal reports.

    "There is little if any policy, guidance or procedures regarding the collection, exploitation and dissemination of domestic MASINT," noted a 2005 study from the US intelligence community, which recommended access to spy satellites. MASINT, or Measurement and Signatures Intelligence, is a particular kind of spy-satellite data that would become available to law enforcement for the first time.
    **
    You are talking about enormous power," Gregory Nojeim, senior counsel and director of the Project on Freedom, Security and Technology for the Center for Democracy and Technology told the paper. "Not only is the surveillance they are contemplating intrusive and omnipresent, it's also invisible. And that's what makes this so dangerous."

    DHS intelligence chief Charles Allen "says the department is cognizant of the civil-rights and privacy concerns, which is why he plans to take time before providing law-enforcement agencies with access to the data. He says DHS will have a team of lawyers to review requests for access or use of the systems."

    Yeah, sure. They're "cognizant of the civil-rights and privacy concerns" which is why they want to destroy the 4th Amendment in as many ways as possible.

    Thanks for selling us out, Dems.

  •  The al Haramain case (16+ / 0-)

    It looks like they have already established grounds for a peel.

  •  Not to whore my diary (7+ / 0-)

    But the Feds announced a further expansion of domestic surveillance today. Domestic law enforcement and security agencies will now be allowed to utilize our spy satellites to track people within US borders. This has never been allowed before an is yet another serious  blow to the concept of civil liberties.

    More details here.

    Big Brother is watching.

    "If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don't have to worry about the answers." - Thomas Pynchon

    by Windowdog on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 09:15:02 AM PDT

  •  the case of Jon Eisenberg's treatment sounds (6+ / 0-)

    more Orwellian than Orwell could have ever imagined.

    McCain just flushed his own campaign by his appearance at the FBF on Aug 16th, 2008.

    by shpilk on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 09:16:16 AM PDT

  •  On a related note... (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    srkp23, army193, kyril

    attorneys challenging this atrocious law are forced to write briefs in a windowless room, fed bananas by guards, without notes or legal references.

    Welcome to the Corporatocracy

    All the war-propaganda, all the screaming and lies and hatred, comes invariably from people who are not fighting. - George Orwell

    by Five of Diamonds on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 09:18:37 AM PDT

  •  US spy satellitles to be used on Americans (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    OLinda, wayoutinthestix, kyril, junta0201

    Now being reported in The Wall Street Journal

    Tracking Weapons

    The spy satellites are considered by military experts to be more penetrating than civilian ones: They not only take color, as well as black-and-white photos, but can also use different parts of the light spectrum to track human activities, including, for example, traces left by chemical weapons or heat generated by people in a building.

    Was it not just a while back that we had to see drawings made up from the Military of these Mobile units in Iraq with train tracks etc.

    Remember, everything was moved to Syria and Iran where is all the photo shot based on the spy satellites capabilities?

    That's right our attention span is about one day.

    How about this one.

    According to defense experts, MASINT uses radar, lasers, infrared, electromagnetic data and other technologies to see through cloud cover, forest canopies and even concrete to create images or gather data.

    This one will make ya happy.

    According to Pentagon officials, the government has in the past been able to supply information from spy satellites to federal law-enforcement agencies, but that was done on a case-by-case basis and only with special permission from the president.

    This one will make us all feel safe.

    Mr. Devine says officials who vetted requests for the scientific community also are worried about the civil-liberties implications when DHS takes over the program. "We took very seriously our mission and made sure that there was no chance of inappropriate usage of the material," Mr. Devine says. He says he hopes oversight of the new DHS program will be "rigorous," but that he doesn't know what would happen in cases of complaints about misuse

    Government Whistle Blowers and Journalist your being watched.

    "The Conservatives definition of torture: Anything that provides death or false information from its captive." Me 2007

    by army193 on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 09:18:53 AM PDT

  •  Juniper M40e and M160 machines! (5+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    srkp23, kingubu, army193, Mas Gaviota, kyril

    My god, they got Junipers! The mere thought of the couple of those machines as a router to watch the internet traffic is astounding!

    I know that Juniper means nothing to most people, but it is an all seeing eye! AN ALL SEEING EYE!

    I cannot stress this enough, if they have coupled a Juniper machine on the backbone of the system, they can track anything.

    ANYTHING.

    Your Candidate/Hitler 2008

    by pinche tejano on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 09:19:06 AM PDT

  •  The fourth branch (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    kyril, junta0201

    has already essentially shown that what the judicial branch does is as meaningless as what the legislative branch mandates.

    In short, it doesn't matter what the court decides.  If its decision goes against the administration, then Cheney, et al, will just say that as a co-equal branch, they don't have to obey the court decision, so there.

    The court's only mechanism for enforcing its decision is an indictment or order that would be executed by the Justice Department.  Right.

    It would then be up, in fact, to the legislative branch to uphold the law in the only manner left to it -- impeachment.  That this is even a question is pitiful and depressing.  It should not be a question that our government enforces our laws and upholds the Constitution; it should happen as a matter of course.  But the fascists in the White House, the Justice Department, and the MSM will treat it as just another partisan dispute, move along, nothing here, oh, look, Brittany just got out of a car!!!

    Prof Dave has it right.  Unfortunately.

    Extreme violations require extreme measures to correct them, and extremism in defense of liberty is no vice.

    "... there is no humane way to rule people against their will." Naomi Klein, The Shock Doctrine

    by Noziglia on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 09:19:45 AM PDT

  •  Because there's nothing worse (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Kagro X, kyril

    than domestic spying in a can.

  •  I cannot believe they shredded the banan peel n/t (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    OLinda, upperleftedge

    -7, -4.46 "You see the world as it is and ask why, I dream of things that never were and ask why not?"

    by PoliOperative on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 09:22:07 AM PDT

  •  They say (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    kyril

    laws need to be updated to meet the technology, and they are exactly correct. Privacy laws need to be updated, reinforced, shoved in the facesw of anti-privacy Republicans. Sumbitches. Shit.

    Hillary did not vote on FISA amendments strengthening civil liberties.

    by LandSurveyor on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 09:23:49 AM PDT

  •  Okay, I am now holding breath. (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    army193, kyril

    Looks like we should get a fair shake, though, based on everything else that's happened. Right?

    May we never forget the tyranny of King George...because McSame imagines he's the heir.

    by Machado on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 09:24:47 AM PDT

  •  in the 9th Court yes SCOTUS NO we all know (5+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    OLinda, NC Dem, army193, Korkenzieher, kyril

    Gonzo is going to appeal whatever the 9th decides there is no way Bush is letting this get heard in a open court in california   now that he has a conservative Supreme  Court

  •  Domestic sping WITHOUT probable cause (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    testvet6778, army193, lurks a lot, kyril

    is clearly the issue here. If there had been probable cause, there are many existing legal tracks the government could have taken. Otherwise why invoke other privileges? Now when did a libertarian Republican party become the party of privacy violations? I seem to have missed that particular memo.

    Well? Shall we go? Yes, let's go. Defeat John McCain.

    by whenwego on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 09:25:51 AM PDT

  •  I'm sorry, but what the fuck? (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    army193, kyril

    Did they think he might have written notes on the banana peel? And what paper shredder is equipped to handle fruit?

    Founder of the Committee to Save asdf

    by droogie6655321 on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 09:29:37 AM PDT

  •  This spying crap is getting ridiculous (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    OLinda, army193, kyril, lenzy1000

    What, are we turning into China now?  The Constitution is above all else and anyone who doesn't follow it deserves the proper punishment for the amendment they break.

    The people who think they can change the world do.- http://youtube.com/watch?v=slgquowo5n0

    by CrowNotAngelGRL on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 09:30:28 AM PDT

  •  Don't think the Suit will go far (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    kyril

    This Bush admin is still too strong.

  •  Hey you- the NSA tech watching me- (4+ / 0-)

    Can you see what I'm doing with my finger?
    Go ahead, report me. I am expressing my Constitutionally protected right of free spee

    What would Yossarian do?

    by Van Buren on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 09:38:34 AM PDT

  •  what they're doing is plotting the (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    kyril, junta0201

    terrain for the cyber-warfare of the future. Instead of having to bomb power plants and fuel lines, they'll just take out the enemy's communications assets.
    Since they're all connected, it's important to isolate the interconnecting nodes.
    That this espionage is going to destroy international trust in the United States and undermine commerce and finance is probably not important.

    How do you tell a predator from a protector? The predator will eat you sooner rather than later.

    by hannah on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 09:44:15 AM PDT

  •  I feel like we're in some bad acid, conspiracy (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    kyril

    thriller:

    When he got hungry, one of the guards brought him a banana. And when he finished, a security official shredded all his drafts — and even the banana peel, Eisenberg said.

    Whiskey tango foxtrot?!

  •  The Government Will Lose - This Round At Least (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    kyril

    The judges on this case are Preggerson, Hawkins, and McKeown. For anyone familiar with Ninth Circuit judges and hoping for an opinion protective of civil liberties, they should be very heartened.  Preggerson is one of the two or three most progressive justices on a progressive court.  Hawkins and McKeown are hardly reactionary jurists.  Unfortunately, theirs is not the last word and others are already predicting a reversal.

    •  Reversal (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      junta0201

      Predictions of reversal are premature.  

      First off the number of cases that SCOTUS takes each year make comparison of affirmation vs reversal rates in the circuits pretty meaningless.  And, by the way, the Ninth hears more cases than all of the other circuits, so you'd expect more cases to go up from the Ninth than from other circuits.  

      Moreover:

      1.  How SCOTUS would rule is unclear.  That court is 4-4 with Kennedy in the middle.  I'd like to see someone analayze his thoughts on the issue from other cases. But it is far from clear that SCOTUS will simply reverse on this case.
      1.  If the decision goes against the government, reversal by the Ninth Circuit en banc is a crapshoot.  The Ninth, unlike the other Courts of Appeals, hears its cases en banc with only some of the judges of the court -- not the whole court. (It's called a petit en banc -- there has never been a grand en banc with all the judges of the Court sitting).  Essentially. The clerk of court randomly chooses 11 out of all the non-recused active judges to form an en banc panel.  That panel could be dominated by liberals or it conservatives.  There is no way to predict easily.  That adds an element of risk in seeking en banc review in the Ninth that doesn't exist in the other circuits -- and makes reversal far less predictable.

      Finally, although Pregerson is known as one of the most liberal members of the Ninth, McKeown is one of the least reversed.  Her decisions are very, very rarely overturned.  I would be very surprised if there weren't a decision by this Panel authored by McKeown and joined by Hawkins, with a more liberal concurrence by Pregerson.  

      But what do I know?

      "Terror is nothing other than justice...; it is ... the general principle of democracy applied to our country's most urgent needs." M. Robespierre

      by Bartimaeus Blue on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 03:07:59 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Oh, and it's all been so terribly (1+ / 0-)

    successful in Afghanistan and Iraq.

    How do you tell a predator from a protector? The predator will eat you sooner rather than later.

    by hannah on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 09:51:08 AM PDT

  •  WTF is a "state secrets privilege"? (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    ImpeachKingBushII

    Is that akin to an "executive privilege" a.k.a. "divine right of kings" a.k.a. "na na na na boo boo"?

    During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act. - George Orwell

    by kyril on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 09:56:07 AM PDT

  •  CSpan this morning said something about (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    kyril

    broadcasting the hearing today.  Does anyone here know if that is accurate and if it is what time and what channel?  

    Thanks in advance.

    The first thing lost in war is truth.

    by KatHart on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 09:59:50 AM PDT

  •  "State secret" presumes the state is above... (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    kyril

    ...your Constitution. It presumes the Executive branch is therefore "above the law". And if it is above the law, then it makes the law and the rule of law as we know it "null and void". And if the law as we know it is null and void, then it means that our system of checks and balances is also negated and nullified. If the Courts won't expose this for what it represents, cold and calculated tyranny in its purest form, then our democracy is no longer; we are but slaves of the state, with no rights, other than which the state gives. Our Constitution has become a suggestion, a mere speed-bump on the road to tyranny and subjugation.

    If my private communications are to be scrutinized by the state and I can be declared an enemy of this state by their own subjective analysis as to its content, regardless of my will or intentions, then that also means that my freedom is defined by the state. And if I'm declared an enemy of the state because I've expressed my opinions in confidence, opposing their will, then that means my freedom is also null and void. The threat to freedom this represents is crystal clear. If the Courts cannot or refuse to see this then we are all doomed. Freedom is dead. America is no more!