Daily Kos

Students not knowing how to learn - thanks, NCLB

Thu Aug 30, 2007 at 02:46:21 AM PDT

This past Monday my three non-AP classes had their first quiz, on the first chapter of the material in the textbook.  It was worth 25 points for 25 answers.  It is the same quiz I have given each of the previous two years, since we got a new textbook and began teaching Government in the 10th grade.  The first year the scores were perhaps a bit weak, last year a bit weaker, and this year they plummeted.  And I have no doubt as to the reason.  It is due to No Child Left Behind.

If you want a brief exploration of the impact of this horrid piece of legislation, keep reading.  Otherwise, trust me - our schools and the learning of our children is increasingly damaged eery year this failed approach is continued, and having now read through all 400+ pages of the proposed revision of Title I, there seems little hope things will improve.  Come seen exactly how  bad it is.

I teach in Maryland.  My first 3 years (beginning in 1995-96 school year) I taught in Middle School.  In those years the tests given to middle schoolers required integrating material across the curriculum, doing exercises which combined skills and knowledge from science and social studies as well as reading and math.  No more.  Since only reading and math have counted for Adequate Yearly Progress under NCLB, the state has stopped testing the other content areas, and as the testing has narrowed and schools and districts have begun panicking about the scores, the instruction has similarly narrowed.  NCLB became law in January 2002, meaning the testing regimen went into effect in the 2002-2003 school year.  This year's 10th graders have thus been under its regimen for 5 years, 4 of them when they were being tested every year.

The Maryland tests do require some writing - what are called Brief Constructed Responses (a BCR is about a paragraph - in high school they also get Extended Contructed responses) as contrasted with most questions, which are Selected Responses (what we know as multiple choice).  The problem with multiple choice questions is that you do not really have to KNOW the material, you merely need to be able to recogize bad answers and eliminate them to make a decent guess.  Remember that.  Also know that in Maryland there is no correction for guessing as there is on SATs and APs.

I had been warned that there was a significant dropoff in performance level for the class of 2010.  Their 9th grade US History teachers had already seen problems last year.  I knew that there had been narrowing of background - some of my AP students last year had told me that they had had little 8th grade US history because of the focus on the testing.  But I was not prepared for what happened on Monday.

I expect students to struggle a bit on this first quiz.  They are used to simply looking definitions up in a glossary, and copying word for word.  I warned them they would need to rephrase definitions in their own words so that they understood, or they would have trouble on my quiz.  We went over the homeworks, trying to have them understand.  On the quiz, I provide them with a definition and they have to provide me with the term itself.  This is actually pretty low level - I usually can within a month or two reverse the process and give them the term and require the definition.  But after Monday I don't know.

In my 3 non-AP classes, the median number correct was 14, 11, and 10.  In one class the highest score was 13 correct.  In the other two classes there were students with 24 and 23 and 21 correct, meaning those who followed my instructions did okay.  I can use that as something of an indicator that my instruction is not totally over their heads.  

I even reminded them that leaving an answer blank was a mistake, that there was no further penalty for filling in a wrong answer.  Yet about 1/3 of the students made no real attempt.  I discovered that some of them were used to not even trying because they were used to getting to retake tests n which they did badly, so why bother?

Here's a key point -  this is a quiz.  It takes maybe 15-20 minutes.  Before they take it I go over about 3/4 of the material with them - in other words, they have just heard again enough to be able to pass.  And yet there is no effort.  This is unlike anything I have ever seen.

I talked with other teachers in the building, and my experience is not unusual. School for many of these students has been reduced to how they do on tests used to measure the school, and why care about anything else?  As soon as those tests are done they shut down mentally.  Besides, what happens during the preparation for those tests is mindless, mind-numbing.

The result?  The tests used for AYP in high school in Maryland are also required for high school graduation, beginning with this year's junior class.  But the scores across the state are so low that the state superintendent is already exploring alternative methods of being able to ascertain that students know enough to warrant allowing them to graduate.  She is considering allowing ....   PROJECTS to demonstrate competence.  DUH!  

I am in contact electronically with educators all across the countryl  The phenomenon I am experiencing is quite common.  We are killing public schools.  We are driving out the good and creative teachers who cannot bear what they have to do because of NCLB.  We are turning off to the jou of learning a generation of school children.  

I do not know what I will do after this year.  I want to make a difference.  I struggle to find ways to connect.  On Monday night I interrupted our normal instruction to have them ask relatives what they remembered or knew about the '63 civil rights march and I devoted Tuesday to the anniversary -  I was at the march so I was able to share the experiences of one participant, and put the events into a broader context.  I had them write a paragraph on what they had learned as a result of this exercise.  It did connect a little with them - some begin to grasp the point of trying to change policy and law to benefit people.  It is something not quite as dry as a lot of what they are asked to do.  

But there is so much remedial stuff I must do - on writing, on how to read, on how to study.  I have a responsibility to them to prepare them for the stupid state test which counts for their graduation, even though not for AYP, and for which they seem to lack a good deal of the basic background knowledge:  if they didn't really get 8th grade history, I have to teach them the context of the American revolution, that the colonists thought themselves Englishmen being denied their historic rights.  They don't know what they should know, because they haven't been taught it because of NCLB, and if they are going to be successful in learning the materialn on which they will be tested by the state ....

Of course, I could just simply prepare them to take the state test.  I know how to do that.  Heck, I did SAT prep for Princeton Review and for another company for about a half-dozen years.  

But I still maintain a shred of intellectual and professional integrity, and I cannot just go through such motions.  

We should be teaching our students how to learn, not merely how to pass tests.  There should be joy and excitement in learning knew things, in having one's mind expanded.  Instead there is dullness and drudgery.

I feel so frustrated right now, and angry on behalf of my students.  And having read the draft on Title I, perhaps almost to the point of despair, as I see how much is still wrong in that proposal.

And now I have to get ready to go to school to try to still make a difference.  Is it still possible, or am I kidding myself about my ability to overcome what they have already experienced?

Tags: no child left behind, education, teaching, students, learning, Recommended (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 391 comments

  •  I share because this is my community (231+ / 0-)

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    and because in our political efforts, we need to remember that one reason we care about the political process is that who is elected makes a difference in the kind of policies that are possible.  Please hold the feet of our political candidates to the fire on behalf of our schoolchildren.  For their sake, and for the future of our nation.

    Peace.

    do we still have a Republic and a Constitution if our elected officials will not stand up for them on our behalf?

    by teacherken on Thu Aug 30, 2007 at 02:44:32 AM PDT

    •  As a former educator... (25+ / 0-)

      I most certainly empathize (and, yes, even sympathize) with all of your frustrations expressed herein.

      Best of luck to all of us fighting to rid our country of this destructive legislation!

      You know we live in strange times when hearing something as simple as the truth almost seems shocking.

      by redhaze on Thu Aug 30, 2007 at 04:13:57 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Well, there are things we can do (15+ / 0-)

        It still comes down to effective teaching, and I would bet that at the end of this year, Ken's students will be a lot more adept than they are now.

        That's the key, especially at the high school level where NCLB has not totally penetrated every classroom.  

        Sure, teachers are now getting the first wave of kids tortured under this law.

        But, we can and we must take back control of public education.  Teachers and others, check out this site and help new teachers learn and understand what is possible in terms of quality teaching and learning.

        If we stand around and wait for government to get it right, nothing will ever change.  I have no hope that the Feds will remake schools to actually help teachers, kids and their families.  So the only thing left is to use the power of the internet to do what Kos has done and create an enlightened, motivated, informed subset of teachers dedicated to making change.

        Help new teachers to grow and love their work at www.newteachernetwork.net

        by Mi Corazon on Thu Aug 30, 2007 at 05:43:44 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I think you give the internet too much credit... (9+ / 0-)

          The internet certainly won't create enlightened, motivated teachers. They will continue exist with or without the internet.

          What we can hope the blogs will do, however, is organize the best among them.

          You know we live in strange times when hearing something as simple as the truth almost seems shocking.

          by redhaze on Thu Aug 30, 2007 at 05:52:03 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I see a coherent reform strategy in new teachers (7+ / 0-)

            I was on the Ykos Education Uprising panel.

            Check out this diary about how bringing 2.4 million new teachers into schools in the next 10 years has the potential to change everything.

            True, this is more than the Internet.  On the other hand, the new generation is very idealistic and more capable technologically than any previous.  And they love working together, learning together and going after things in teams.  It's an awesome combination of skills and aptitudes.

            Help new teachers to grow and love their work at www.newteachernetwork.net

            by Mi Corazon on Thu Aug 30, 2007 at 06:21:21 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  There's a conditioning effect that takes (22+ / 0-)

          place here.  Imagine trying to unlearn the English language or how to ride a bike.  You can't do it.  Similarly, our students are now being conditioned from a very early age to think and learn in a particular way that makes for a strong uphill battle when teachers attempt to employ more critically based pedagogies.  Problems are exacerbated by the fact that classrooms are constantly being invaded by legislators and administrators who have never themselves been in the classroom and who know little or nothing about education.  They are constantly having to struggle with inefficient and idiotic policies they have to enact in their classroom, which make the task of undoing the damages wrought by NCLB through alternative pedagogies even more difficult.

          •  Very true. (12+ / 0-)

            My sister's certification is in ESE.  She teaches functionally illiterate teens how to read, using the Wilson method.  How her work is valued and supported varies by district.  Last year, her work was really difficult, in large part because her principal didn't understand her methodology and just didn't support her in the best way.  She jumped ship to a neighboring district this month -- one where they use this method widely, understand and support it, and where she did her student teaching.  And her position is that FCAT/NCLB is crap.  In fact, she calls it FCRAP.

            There is a world of difference in outcomes when administrators have classroom experience.  My late mother was a classroom teacher before she made the jump to inservice training director.  She could evaluate new ideas for instructional techniques and determine whether they would work or not.  How many of the MBAs and non-teachers in district-level administration can do that?  

            And the effects of NCLB are already showing up in university classrooms.  The art of essay writing is dying, and my students two years ago struggled hideously because that was the format I used for testing.  There wasn't a multiple choice section on any exam I gave.  I was horrified.  How the hell can we expect students to succeed in college and the real world when they cannot write a cogent essay or report?  This is preparation for the real world, and clear written communication is still highly valued.

            "Fighting Fascism is Always Cool." -- Amsterdam Weekly, volume three, issue 18 (-8.50, -7.23)

            by Noor B on Thu Aug 30, 2007 at 09:51:01 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  This is reinforced in College by students who.. (8+ / 0-)

            say you aren't teaching them when you refuse to teach to the test and ask them to analyze and think/write critically. I was amazed to see many students who have internalized this "rudimentary form of education" and say so in evals.

            Many think education is about memorizing what is needed to pass the test. Unfortunately, I've seen too many College teacher who have simply caved to this attitude to get good evals.

          •  A remark that hits close to home (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Coolwateroverstones
            this week.  
             "Problems are exacerbated by the fact that classrooms are constantly being invaded by legislators and administrators who have never themselves been in the classroom and who know little or nothing about education."
            I found out my 2 1/2 year old grandson suddenly hates day care.  His mother asked what was going on.  The answer - the state has begun to mandate that more time be spent on learning the alphabet and other structured learning.  Amazingly, my grandson would rather play!  FWIW he does know some of his letters, something he learned by playing with flash cards, but I realized that he can't tell the difference between C and G, P and R, for instance, and I doubt he will be able to until he has the fine motor skills to be able to write.
        •  No it doesn't. (17+ / 0-)

          When I was confronted with students not knowing their times-tables in sixth grade, I was told it was NOT my job to catch them up...it was the job of their parents now and I had to stick to the approved curriculum and times tables were not approved for grade six! I was called on the carpet(the school had carpets!) and told to write 12 reasons why my class did not achieve 95% proficiency in the district-approved weekly math test! I was able to give them 30 reasons. I could have given more if I had specified which times tables they did NOT know that were necessary for the test.

        •  Our government doesn't torture people (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Shockwave, draftchrisheinz, kyril
          • especially not children.  Abu Gonzalez said so.

          The most outrageous lies that can be invented will find believers if a man only tells them with all his might. - Mark Twain

          by mkfarkus on Thu Aug 30, 2007 at 08:59:24 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  I will not be able to monitor this closely (33+ / 0-)

      I will have a very busy day at school, and certainly no time to check between periods.  It looks like a lively discussion is being sustained without much of my participation.

      I do promise to get back and read all comments eventually, but for now I have to get to my school tasks.

      Peace.

      do we still have a Republic and a Constitution if our elected officials will not stand up for them on our behalf?

      by teacherken on Thu Aug 30, 2007 at 04:39:26 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Teaching (29+ / 0-)

        is a heartbreaking experience. I did it for a couple of years and it nearly destroyed me. The job is at least as hard as being a cop on a solo beat at 3 a.m., except the cop gets a gun, a communication device, and wheels.

        For me, the most monstrous educational gap in this generation is the lack of critical thinking skills. That includes the ability to receive, understand, and analyze information.

        This lack didn't begin with the Bush administration (although the Bush gang did everything possible to further the loss.) The inability to think critically -- not to criticize, but to question authority, independently collect information and seek facts -- that loss led to the installation of idiot leaders, created an audience for news echo chambers and abusive talk radio/television pundits, and nourished the multiple symptoms of a nationwide social dissolution.

        In short, it's hard to defend and protect the U.S. Constitution and Bill of Rights when you've never read and understood either document, and have no idea why people wrote these words anyway.

        Ken, please keep pitching. I know exactly how hard teaching is. I have the battle scars. We need you in there.

      •  A response to your question, teacherken (7+ / 0-)

        Is it still possible, or am I kidding myself about my ability to overcome what they have already experienced?

        Notice that I didn't say "answer."

        But my response is, no, you aren't kidding yourself about anything. You witness up front and personal how damaged and disheartening the educational system has become.

        However, what you are doing is important, even critical: continuing to teach our kids as best you can in a oppressive environment.

        You may end up with some successes. You may end up having to cut your losses at some point. But at least you will be able to look your children and grandchildren in the eyes and say, "I tried."

        Kudos and thanks to you for that.

        July 9, 2008 -- I watched helplessly while Congress destroyed my Constitution. R.I.P.

        by bleeding heart on Thu Aug 30, 2007 at 09:35:34 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Our school agrees with your approach (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        teacherken, Chun Yang

        teacherken, I've posted on your diaries before about the school my kids have gone to.  It's a K-8 alternative school with a whole-child philosophy, driven by the belief that teaching kids how to learn is more important than filling their heads up with facts.  They do not "teach to the test" for California STAR tests as the local schools do -- in fact, they pretty much ignore them.

        We had a principal who was passionately opposed to the state tests and wrote essays about why they are detrimental.  That's probably why the district moved him to another school (to be fair, they move all the principals around, but they did so with no warning).  Our current principal is a more traditional administrator and the rate of taking the tests has gone up since the departure of the other one.  Nowhere near the 95% compliance rate, though.

        Anyway, the curriculum is integrated, lots of projects to show why reading, writing, math, science etc skills are needed to get something done.  Lots of field trips to connect the learning to something real: history, social studies, science, music, etc.

        But this year my daughter made the decision to attend our neighborhood middle school instead of continuing on at the alternative.  Big changes; seven different teachers a day, a bunch of unconnected homework, and I'm sure plenty of drilling and killing as the tests approach in May.  I just hope that seven years at the alternative set the foundation for her to know how to learn when it isn't spoon-fed.

        Love your articles and admire your passion teacherken, keep at it.

      •  Sorry to Hear of This (0+ / 0-)

        From your point of view as an educator, all of this must be very disheartening.

        But it is consistent with what the Republicans want from "education", namely, to develop an uncritical population with a Pavlovian impulse to borrow money and then buy beyond their means. The elite, of course, have a different way of life.

    •  DKos may be your community indeed (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      teacherken

      but the public school system is W.'s Congress's community now.  AYP is all that matters anymore.

      Perhaps your best bet is to get your district to secede from NCLB, and reject Federal money.  Better underfunded than this.

      "The freeway's concrete way won't show/ you where to run or how to go" -- Jorma Kaukonen

      by Cassiodorus on Thu Aug 30, 2007 at 05:27:16 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I teach college philosophy. (38+ / 0-)

      Since the enactment of NCLB, I have noticed a steady decline in student performance among my intro students.  They are unable to write, unable to read, and unable to think critically.  When I say that my students are unable to read, I do not mean that they are unable to read the words on a page.  Sure, they can do this, but this is not what college level reading is.  Rather, they are unable to do elementary things like interpret metaphors and analogies (or even recognize that metaphors and analogies are being drawn), identify claims and supporting reasons for arguments, sense tone and irony, etc.  

      When it comes to writing, their essays are not close readings that carefully explain and evaluate arguments, but rather superficial summaries of key points.  It appears that my incoming students do not even know what an argument is.  

      NCLB has been a disaster for the United States.  It is creating an entire generation of mindless drones who are constitutively unable to think or reason.  Reform on this issues needs to be one of the number one priorities for whoever is elected in 2008.  It is also vitally important that the broader population be educated as to just why this is such a mess.  In my experience, many believe teachers are just lazy, are complaining, and do not want accountability.  They assume that being able to take a test is the essence of education (apparently many do not know what learning or education genuinely are and associate it with test taking alone).  They do not understand that teachers aren't calling for lower standards, but are actually calling for higher standards that can't be captured with quantitative methodologies.

      •  Yes, and High School teachers are rated (9+ / 0-)

        on their failure notice numbers and are told to make sure those students pass! It is happening all over, especially to young, non-tenured teachers. They don't bother with the older faculty. I think it probably happens in the grade schools since High schools get so many who are so totally deficient in everything. Incompetency is rewarded!

      •  I teach intro history and government courses (17+ / 0-)

        at the college level, and I see the same problems.

        Oddly enough, it's horrible with my 18-20 year olds, but it's quite bad with my non-traditional 25-40 year olds as well.

        I have had numerous students who have no idea how the Library of Congress system works in the library--that if one book has been checked out on their topic, look to the left and to the right to find similar books on the same topic.  Sigh.

        They don't ask questions, either--that same student didn't go to the librarian to seek help, nor do my students use the free tutoring provided by the college.

        They do complain, though--to the dean, to the department chair, to me.  But frankly, many lack basic skills from 7th/8th grade, and I am often at a loss.  I can't "catch them up" in one semester.

        •  NCLB (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
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          is a continuation and exacerbation of policies that have been in effect since the '80s at least and possibly even the '70s. My mother is a professional educator who specialized primarily in private math tutoring, although she also tutored younger kids with learning disabilities in math and reading; she noticed a steady decline in math understanding from the time what she called "New Math" was introduced in the '70s but said that with the increase of teachers who "teach to the test" in the '90s, she was beginning to find that her nontraditionally-taught learning-disabled kids were grasping concepts faster and more effectively than her mainstream students.

          That being said, since most of today's new teachers are under 30 and were therefore exposed to '90s education, we may have a major problem on our hands.

          During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act. - George Orwell

          by kyril on Thu Aug 30, 2007 at 12:07:00 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  We Teach Summary (13+ / 0-)

        We teach summaries to college freshmen to help them to learn to read critically.  They have no idea how to do that when we get them.  I am currently working with my freshmen to get them to just think about things.  We are doing Plato's "Allegory of the Cave" and Camus' "Myth of Sisyphus" as thought problems.  But none of them can even read Camus.  Next I will teach them how to do a summary with critical reading and thinking.  It takes about a third of a semester just to teach them to read critically, much less write critically.  When I accomplish this, I can start working on critical argumentation.  One thing I note is that these kids are absolutely hungry for ideas.  They love critical thinking and think my class is really fun because we think.  Go figure!

        •  They think my classes are fun too (7+ / 0-)

          because I don't make them memorize much of anything. They do have to learn how to find what they need to know, how to adapt other designs, and how to critique things.

          I agree about the critical thinking though - they hardly ever had to do it before, and it's way different from what they're used to.

          •  This is pretty much what I do (5+ / 0-)

            My students don't memorize anything.  They think, read and write.  But this is all pretty much new to them.  Some of them went to big schools where our graduates teach and they have done more of what we do in college.  But the kids from small school systems usually have to learn all of this stuff from us.  Still they seem to have fun.

        •  Traditionally I've despised teaching (8+ / 0-)

          logic courses, but given this phenomenon I've begun to think that perhaps no course is more vital than critical thinking for incoming freshman and sophmores.  This year I'll teach the course as a sort of critical rhetoric course, focusing on ordinary language arguments, psychological fallacies, evaluating credibility of sources, etc., rather than focusing on formal and symbolic logic.  It does not appear they're getting this anywhere else.

        •  I had a labor relations course (13+ / 0-)

          in an undergraduate business program.  The professor told us not to study for the mid-term, because it wouldn't do any good.  There would be one essay question - and we had an hour to write the answer.  --- Everybody panicked!

          The question went something like:  A new labor law that says ......... has been introduced to the Senate.  You are a position paper writer for Sen. (Chuck) Percy (this dates it to the early 70's).  Draw up a list of pro's and con's for the bill and a position for the senator.

          I was stunned and sat there for about five minutes staring at the board.  Then I drew a line down the middle of the first page of the blue book and headed the columns pro and con.  Listing these took about 5 minutes.  I then said he should oppose the bill unless it was amended to include ......... It took less than one page to answer.

          So - 15 minutes into the exam I was done.  I left early with an empty pit in my stomach. Some students were going back for a second exam book.

          Apparently the rest of the class would have been better politicians than me.  They wrote down everything they knew about labor law, but didn't answer the question.

          This was the only exam I ever left thinking I might have failed (I got the only A and was embarrassed by having my answer read to the class).

          Unfortunately most students think that regurgitating what they know is evidence of education.  It sounds like the NCLB Act has agravated this situation.

          The most outrageous lies that can be invented will find believers if a man only tells them with all his might. - Mark Twain

          by mkfarkus on Thu Aug 30, 2007 at 09:33:25 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  That first page of the blue book (4+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Philoguy, Noor B, galaxy33, kyril

            probably got you about 50% of your grade right there -- I've worked with a lot of college students (as a fellow student, albeit quite untraditional), and made that same suggestion that when approaching a paper, the best start is to outline the key points you want to address and go from there.

            In my print production class, the instructor said that one of the biggest problems these days in production is that people want to hop right on the computer and get started, rather than taking the time to plan what they want to do ahead of time (sketching out a general layout). Outlining is tedious (I hate to do it), but it saves a lot of time and wrong turns in the long run.

            "Old soldiers never die -- they get young soldiers killed." -- Bill Maher

            by Cali Scribe on Thu Aug 30, 2007 at 09:53:51 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  besides (0+ / 0-)

              if you are using a computer, you can take that outline and paste it into the actual document you're working on... and refer back to it if the document has gone off the rails.

              I sometimes do that with articles I'm writing for publication or a business plan.

              So the time isn't wasted by any reasonable definition of waste and having one's thinking organized with an outline will save time on the document itself.

              Looking for intelligent energy policy alternatives? Try here.

              by alizard on Thu Aug 30, 2007 at 03:26:41 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  This was before the days of personal computers (0+ / 0-)

                My senior year in college I remember one guy had an actual hand-held calculator (which he paid $300 for).  That was cutting edge technology for the early 70's

                The most outrageous lies that can be invented will find believers if a man only tells them with all his might. - Mark Twain

                by mkfarkus on Fri Aug 31, 2007 at 07:28:27 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

      •  I noticed this earlier, (5+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        madhaus, exiledfromTN, Philoguy, Noor B, kyril

        but then I was teaching college in Texas where we had a head start on the rest of the country.

        •  That's where I first saw it. (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          northsylvania, galaxy33, kyril

          The fall of 1999 was a good year, comparatively speaking.  By the spring of 2004, though, I was getting the students who had deliberately dumbed down their high school curriculum so they could get into UT on the top 10% plan that Shrub thought would be so wonderful.  They couldn't write essays worth a damn nor punctuate, spell, or use correct grammar.  This wasn't just on their essay exams -- the same problems showed up in their book reviews and term papers.  

          "Fighting Fascism is Always Cool." -- Amsterdam Weekly, volume three, issue 18 (-8.50, -7.23)

          by Noor B on Thu Aug 30, 2007 at 10:00:41 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  I'm in Texas as (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          northsylvania, samddobermann, kyril

          well...  The inspiring thing, however, is that the students seem genuinely hungry for ideas and thought.  Once they get over the initial trauma of reading primary texts and writing, they love the exploration of arguments and philosophical concepts.  Enrollment has exploded on my campus in philosophy over the years.

      •  I completely agree (6+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Cali Scribe, Stoy, Philoguy, Noor B, galaxy33, kyril

        I teach graphics/web design as an adjunct. It's not an exact science, and there's always numerous ways to do any task.

        It's EXTREMELY hard for some of the kids to grasp that they don't have to memorize ANYTHING. I don't expect them to. I DO expect them to be able to explain what they did and what steps they took, and why they decided to do a particular thing. That doesn't mean it's the way I would have done it, but that also doesn't mean it's WRONG. And I expect them to be able to find out how to do something if they don't remember the steps.

        The only wrong thing is for them to blindly copy something, without any modifications, and try to pass it off as their own.

        Some of them are elated that they don't have to memorize stuff. Most aren't - they're used to having a nice, neat little outline to follow, filling in the blocks, and then immediately forgetting everything.

        You can't do that in my classes. You can be as creative as you want. You just have to explain the how and why of your design.

        In the web classes, you have to understand what you did, and why it works (or doesn't work). Most of them never really get it. At all. They don't understand how to structure a site, they don't understand how or why links work, and most of all, they don't have any clue how to debug the simplest thing.

        The pure design classes are much easier for them. they don't have to understand how the software they use works, they just have to understand how to use it. They just have to create ONE file, and know where it is.

        •  Yeah, My Students Want to Know Exactly What to Do (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          exiledfromTN, Noor B, kyril

          We have the same problem with students wanting us to spell out exactly how to write a paper.  We do spell it out and they don't get it.  But students have different learning styles.  Our goal is to get them to problem solve without being told what to do.  It's pretty much uphill, but some of them get it.

        •  I've noticed the same thing (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          kyril

          my first couple of days back at school -- I'm taking web design/graphics at a local community college. It should be interesting to see how things develop over the course of the semester (I had to miss one class today because I'm helping the spouse work out some issues with our insurance coverage, but I think we'd just be going over the interface and I should be able to pick that up on my own).

          "Old soldiers never die -- they get young soldiers killed." -- Bill Maher

          by Cali Scribe on Thu Aug 30, 2007 at 09:47:43 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  I'm not sure where to lay the blame... (5+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        elfling, Philoguy, Noor B, galaxy33, kyril

        You can even see this at a graduate level. The mass of graduate students in our program won't ask questions, are looking for memorized answers and accept dogma as fact. This is in biology. These folks are in their twenties, for the large part, so it isn't a recent phenomena.

        I had a mentor who told me that he saw this first about '77. From one year to the next, students abandoned learning as a value in and of itself and began to see education in purely operational terms - what piece of paper can I get.

        It may be a social phenomena coming out of the cynicism of the failures of the 60s. As each new generation comes forward, they have been raised by increasingly cynical parents. After 3 generations of this, we've reached a transition point where thought, in and of itself, is being abandoned.

        It's extremely disheartening, if true.

        •  You want to hear something really scary? (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          alizard

          When your physician can't think critically and makes memorized diagnoses and treatments exclusively.

          I've reported a couple of these robotic young twits to some older, more respected specialists.  (Rumor has it that one of them's so bad the State's going after her license.)

          We're really screwed when we can't trust our own doctors.  

          People never lie so much as after a hunt, during a war or before an election. --Otto von Bismarck

          by Ice Blue on Thu Aug 30, 2007 at 01:42:27 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Yup, it's how we're training them! (0+ / 0-)

            The current vogue in MD training is "case management". What that means is that instead of trying to figure out what is actually wrong with the patient, you lookup the mapping of symptoms to meds, and start to give them meds. If they don't respond, you follow an algorithm to try different meds.

            It's very efficient with physician time, just not so good at actually fixing people.

      •  This is why we're homeschooling. (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Noor B, kyril

        We can't do that to our daughter, we just can't.

        I know it's hard on my lovely p00ka wife, who as the parent at home and the educator in the family takes the brunt of the work. But what else are we supposed to do?

        How else can we teach her to learn and think for herself, so that by the time she gets to you there's something to work with?

      •  You hit it here (6+ / 0-)

        They assume that being able to take a test is the essence of education

        NCLB is putting Descartes before duh horse.

        (sorry!) ;-)

        This ain't no party. This ain't no disco. This ain't no foolin' around!

        by Snud on Thu Aug 30, 2007 at 10:13:03 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  an entire generation of mindless drones (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        NeeshRN

        That sounds a lot like what the Republicans wanted.  It's a whole lot easier to keep a population docile if you can simply tell them what to believe rather than giving them the tools to figure it out for themselves.

        There was another group in this country's history that was systematically denied education - pre-Civil War slaves.  That's a nasty parallel if there ever was one.

      •  What I don't understand (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        alizard

        The problem I have always had, and still have, with the complaints about NCLB, is that I do not understand how the testing has brought this about. I have heard, repeatedly, of "teaching to the test", and although I don't disbelieve this, everything I've read on it suffers from the flaw of "telling, not showing", as I would call it if it were fiction writing.

        Show, don't tell. Don't tell me that too much class time is taken up by teaching to the test. Narrate for me what is happening in your class now, and what would happen instead if it were not for these tests.

        And give me examples of the questions that are on the tests. I have read many complaints — my own sister has complained to me about the tests my nephew had to take. She told me they were "crazy". I asked her what sort of questions were on the test. She said, "You should see them, they're crazy." Well, I'd like to see them. But I've never seen them.

        Have any older tests from previous years been released? Are there sample tests, practice tests in the public domain? Can you point me to some resources where I can learn more?

        Finally, draw the connections, show me the causal relationship between the testing, the classroom activities and coursework, and the ... "dumbth" of the students. (To borrow a word from Steve Allen.)

        Being able to take a test is not the essence of education. Being unable to take a test is, however, a sign of the lack thereof. What kind of tests, how many, and to whom, would you give if you were designing the system?

        We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly.

        by dconrad on Thu Aug 30, 2007 at 02:49:34 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Remember where it came from... (5+ / 0-)

      It came from Texas...  Ross Perot working with the TX State School Board, started to set standards and tests.  Also dictated the number of days in school, minimum hours in class (cut out fun things like pep rallys, etc.).  The standards came at a price - poor attendance, higher drop out rate, kids classified lower in the scale to keep them out of the testing, etc..  Then comes in Bush who was won over big time by it (a good buddy of Ross) and tried to apply it nationally.  But the scaling factor to go from state level to national is immense .  

      NCLB is a farce.

      It was a time of desperate need for heroes - any kind of heroes. "Twice Upon a Time"

      by doingbusinessas on Thu Aug 30, 2007 at 08:06:03 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Lucky Texans! (8+ / 0-)

        Our young people had a "head start" in getting behind.   Both my sons completed public school under the TX NCLB program and each year it got worse. Students were rewarded for NEVER thinking outside the box and punished for looking for new/alternate solutions.

        We, as parents, did an enormous amount of supplemental teaching to try to give them the skills we believed to be critical.  I don't think I realized at the time how much time, energy, and yes, money we put into providing these opportunities.  And I appreciate not every parent is willing and/or able to do the same.

        The truth always matters.

        by texasmom on Thu Aug 30, 2007 at 08:36:39 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  A request from a history major (5+ / 0-)

      Can you please post your 25-question quiz for us all to take?

      Please?

      Circumstances rule men; men do not rule circumstances. -The Histories of Herodotus, Book 7, Ch. 49

      by Louise on Thu Aug 30, 2007 at 08:07:47 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  not relevant (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Stoy, Ice Blue, kyril

        because this particular test is tied to a combination of the material in the first chapter of the text book and the additional material I put on the board

        sorry

        do we still have a Republic and a Constitution if our elected officials will not stand up for them on our behalf?

        by teacherken on Thu Aug 30, 2007 at 08:16:20 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  severly OT ... (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Ice Blue, kyril

          But would it be possible for you to post or diary a history reading list for the dKos community members with children and/or young relatives?

          Given NCLB, we might need to have diarists post reading lists for other subjects as well.

          'Kumbaya' is not a plan.

          by linnen on Thu Aug 30, 2007 at 10:11:44 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  I don't understand this response (0+ / 0-)

          Was the book or the material on the board from a different, parallel universe? If it's U.S. history, there's a good chance folks here will known it, even though they haven't read it in that particular chapter of that particular book, but aside from that, it would help to make the context of the discussion more concrete.

          We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly.

          by dconrad on Thu Aug 30, 2007 at 03:06:06 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  it is not US history, although it includes some (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Mi Corazon

            it is government, dealing with some basic concepts to understand.

            Thus, the four criteria for a state (an independent self-governing entity) are territory, population, government, and sovereignty.  This becomes necessary to understand precisely what the colonists were doing in declaring independence -  they already had the first three and for the reasons of abuse they documented they were dissolving their allegiance to the crown and asserting their right to sovereignty.  

            They are also expected to go beyond how the book presents the material to pay attention to what we cover in class, and usually repeatedly.  Thus I organize the course around two themes - the question of what is justice and the nature of the social contract.   They are expected to understand the difference between Hobbes ("and the life of man:  solitary, poor, nasty, brutish and short") and Locke, and the influence of the latter on American thinking.  

            I am trying to teach them not to try to learn by brute force memorization, but to restate things in terms they understand so that they own it.

            But increasingly their educational experience has the following characteristics

            • they do not get basic social studies in elementary and middle school, because it is not tested for AYP under NCLB - thus they lack the minimal background knowledge and one can expect NO prior knowledge about basic American history
            • they spend much of their time taking practice tests using released multiple choice questions from prior exams
            • they have learned to practice economical thinking, that is, if it is not going to be on the test ignore it
            • they have almost no experience in thinking beyond the lowest levels of cogitation.  They at best are at recall, and in some cases not even there.

            THESE ARE HS STUDENTS, for gosh sakes.  Each year the level of basic knowledge and the ability to apply what I would consider basic skills has been decreasing.  What I see in these kids is a qualitative drop.  Prior to this it has been incremental.  

            And many of them are almost totally turned off to school.  

            My colleagues on educational lists around the country seem to be experiencing the same pattern.  

            What I cannot do by posting the questions is present the context in which the information was presented.  You were not there when I stepped out of the room on the 2nd day when they were writing down what they thought justice is to have me come back in the room in peruke and black robe going "oyez, oyz, all you having business before this court ...."

            You do not have the specific examples of using what they offered to stretch their thinking further.

            Look, I expect this first quiz to be a struggle for some, because I am asking them to think in a way they have not, and until they are confronted with the reality that trying to learn by brute force memorization does not cut it, I cannot move them to where they need to move.  What is different this year  waas the total unwillingness to try.  They have seen enough of the kinds of tests by which AYP is determined to know that what I am asking is not it.  They have had hammered into them the idea that such tests are what really matters.  So after 4 years of that in middle and elementary school they showed up at our very good high school unwilling to operate in any other fashion.  I was warned by those who taught them in 9th grade of what to expect.  The number of students recommended for AP government this year was also down significantly.  There is a pattern, and it correlates strongly with the increasing pressures to make AYP.  

            The students were expected to be able to list those four features of a state.  They were expected to be able to identify Locke and Aristotle.  The were expected to know be able to identify from definitions terms such as capitalism, socialism, free market and command economies.  They were expected to be able to recognize that a monarchy is not necessarily an autocracy and a republic could be a dictatorship.  They were not asked anything that had not been gone over in different fashions a total of at least four times - they had it in class, they had it in organized charts, they had it in homework, they had it in at least one review.  This is basic terminology and understanding upon which the rest of the course is built.  And the level of performance this year dropped significantly, as if some critical mass has been reached after a certain number of years of drill and kill.

            Many of us predicted this would happen.  But as I noted elsewhere on this thread, it is like those scientists who warned about global warming -  the impact is so much more severe and happening so much more quickly than even in our direst predictions we imagined would happen.  That is part of the shock of my experience this week.

            do we still have a Republic and a Constitution if our elected officials will not stand up for them on our behalf?

            by teacherken on Thu Aug 30, 2007 at 06:12:16 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Brilliant, Ken! (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              teacherken

              This is exactly the kind of information I felt was needed. The sorts of things they know, the sorts of things they don't know, the subject matter on the test, the manner in which the class is conducted, and specifics of what has changed due to NCLB, such as no social studies in MS (zoinks!). You might think I was being a jerk, but I'm glad I provoked this comment from you because I think these details really add substance to what you've written about. Cheers, and keep fighting the good fight!

              We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly.

              by dconrad on Fri Aug 31, 2007 at 06:57:09 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  But a good idea (4+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        elfling, Noor B, galaxy33, kyril

        would be to require all legislators to take any test they require students to take before it's instituted.

        "Old soldiers never die -- they get young soldiers killed." -- Bill Maher

        by Cali Scribe on Thu Aug 30, 2007 at 09:55:33 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  My hat is off to you (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      elfling, kyril

      for sticking with a difficult situation.  When I was in college in the early 70's I was planning on teaching high school.  I was majoring in French, and the faculty there discouraged me from pursuing teaching in a secondary school.  They told me I was "too intelligent" to be a high school teacher.

      My thought even then was - if this is the case, public education in this country is in real trouble.  

      It might have been better if Dubya had become a teacher.  At least then his destructive influence would have been limited to the children with whom he came in contact.

      The most outrageous lies that can be invented will find believers if a man only tells them with all his might. - Mark Twain

      by mkfarkus on Thu Aug 30, 2007 at 08:58:14 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  YOU can make a difference in ... (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      kyril

      what and most importantly HOW they learn this year...

      and in doing that you will give them tools for the next... and the next...

      Our country can survive war, disease, and poverty... what it cannot do without is justice.

      by mommyof3 on Thu Aug 30, 2007 at 09:47:28 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Ken, please proofread and update (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      kyril

      "eery year", "Come seen exactly how  bad it is."

      I hate to always be Mr. Peevish Nitpicker on here, but I also hate to read prose like that. I'm sure you were writing quickly and have many demands on your time, but, well, that needs fixing.

      I look forward to reading the rest of your diary.

      We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly.

      by dconrad on Thu Aug 30, 2007 at 11:19:38 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I had almost no time to write the diary (0+ / 0-)

        normally in those circumstances, I go back and reread and make such corrections.  I have not had the time on this because of the sheer volume of comments - I read all comments on my diaries because I owe people that.  This is also a very busy time of year for me, with soccer as well as the start of the school year and as a resident of Virginia dealing with elections to our General Assembly (and quite probably after tomorrow the mad scramble of people recalculating for what office they want to run after John Warner announces he is not running for reelection).

        Perhaps at some point I will go back and make such corrections.  I know I need to.  But right now I barely have time to get through the comments.  Your point is valid, but I have to balance that versus not posting at all or not reading the comments people have taken the time to write, responding where appropriate  The latter seems of greater importance, unless a typo causes one to misunderstand the point I am trying to make.

        do we still have a Republic and a Constitution if our elected officials will not stand up for them on our behalf?

        by teacherken on Thu Aug 30, 2007 at 06:16:11 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I dont think this began with NCLB (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      jcrit, kyril

      I think it began well before. But, I was at high school in Texas during the years Bush was guv so I have a different perspective I guess - I dont think I need to say more, as he based NCLB upon his efforts to change the education system in Texas with testing + funding.

      Although some of the reason is due to desegregation of the schools in the small city I was in, the year after I graduated, the town implemented a magnet system for the 3 high schools to get more students involved in the other 2 schools. My school was bout 90% white, and the others were predominately black or hispanic, but redistricting was not a viable solution (the town of 100k ppl was very segregated in itself). So it was in violation of desegregation laws for since they were enacted... Since those laws were never forced it did not matter.

      Then Bush came along. With this plan, the other two schools did so poorly in comparison to my HS, that they received less funding or no funding at all. City council complained and eventually the magnet system was enforced. I already graduated by then so I didnt really pay much attention to it, and my sibs automatically got entrance into my school due to family ties. I am not sure if this system worked or caused issues, but it was implemented IMO to help with funding for the other high schools that did not meet standards.

      Also from my perspective and being in AP classes and close to my teachers back then, they were always complaining about the lack of intelligence seen in the non-AP students. The number of AP students was less and less each year. The number of kids going to private universities was less each year. The numbers going to Tech, A&M, UT was less each year. The number dropping out or not going to college after graduating was increasing. I was very close to my physics teacher as well as the math teacher, and they both quit or went part-time for the reasons you speak of - what point is it to teach if the kids aren't learning? its hard to say exactly where the problem is - the testing, the teaching, the students? I agree with you that your teaching may not be a culprit, but can you say that for the other teachers? Not everyone teaches the same, nor should they, but there are many fundamental things children are not learning pre-hs that influences their learning later in life. This is a problem that needs to be fixed from the bottom-up, but the ppl in power keep thinking top-down on everything.

      There are other issues at play as well. TV, video games, internet as distractions from proper studying and reading. Also even those with higher aptitude seem to be having issues as they are doing more and more extra activities to boost resumes since they are forced to compete for the fewer entrance spots at the top accredited colleges. Once they get into college, they are burnt out. There are problems everywhere throughout the system. It will be a long time before this country competes again academically around the world...

    •  Where in Maryland? (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      alizard

      I went to high school there, and at the time I was there (class of '99, so right before NCLB) my school was considered absolutely outstanding considering the county it was in. It's now considered only mediocre and has canceled or scaled back or failed to maintain student interest in a lot of the things like its enormous music, drama, Latin and technology programs that made it special in the '90s.

      During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act. - George Orwell

      by kyril on Thu Aug 30, 2007 at 11:55:42 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  and I hope there are a few responses (40+ / 0-)

    but whatever happens with this diary, so be it.

    I wrote it from my frustration.

    This morning was the first opportunity I had, having gotten up at 4 to finish correcting papers handed in yesterday (we had an way soccer scrimmage, so I did not get home until about 8:30 last night).

    I suspect that the subject will not draw many, and that even most who do choose to read will not feel inspired to comment.

    But if I can plant a few seeds out there, just a few more, about how destructive this law is . . .

    do we still have a Republic and a Constitution if our elected officials will not stand up for them on our behalf?

    by teacherken on Thu Aug 30, 2007 at 03:01:08 AM PDT

    •  I am so with you on the importance (