Daily Kos

Making A More Perfect Constitution

Fri Sep 28, 2007 at 01:11:58 PM PDT

(I've asked Prof. Larry Sabato to discuss his new book in depth on the site, over the coming weeks, to spur discussion about his radical and quite intriguing idea to call for a Second Constitutional Convention to update the U.S. Constitution. It's a scary proposal for what should be obvious reasons, but his book is a great look at the parts of the Constitution that don't work, and what could be done to update our most cherished national document. To be clear -- no money has exchanged any hands to make this happen -- kos)

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Throughout the history of the American republic, politicians have run on platforms of change: changing healthcare, or the economy, or foreign policy. They have promised their constituents that they will go and "clean up" Washington, and encouraged voters to "throw the bums out." But nowhere amidst their posturing has there been a call for changing the system itself; no one seems to see that maybe it’s the Constitution, not just the Congress, that needs to be cleaned up.

In the 220 years since the Constitution was written, the United States has undergone a great transformation. The 13 original states on the Atlantic seaboard have grown into 50, from sea to shining sea. Advances in transportation and communications have created an interconnected nation that shares information in the blink of an eye. We've seen the growth of political parties, and the various institutions and practices that come with them.

But what we haven't seen is major Constitutional reform. There have only been 17 amendments (the first 10 must be considered a part of the original document), one of which simply reversed another, others of which have been quite minor. Despite the new realities of the modern United States, our government runs under the direction of a document written with quill pens. This is not what our founders envisioned. Thomas Jefferson insisted that, "No society can make a perpetual Constitution...The earth belongs always to the living generation." He wanted major Constitutional reform every generation. One of Jefferson's great contemporaries, James Madison, agreed on the matter, saying that constitutional revisions would be "a salutary curb on the living generation from imposing unjust or unnecessary burdens on their successors."

The Constitution remains brilliant in its overall design. The Founders devised a political system that separated the powers of government, placed mutual checks on the powers each branch held, and ensured certain civil and human rights. Any new Constitutional initiatives must steer clear of infringing upon these bedrock principles of American government.

The first step toward changing the Constitution is beginning a discussion of what's going wrong with the one we have, and what we might do to fix it. Over the next several weeks, I'll be posting diaries outlining some of my proposals for Constitutional reform (which number 23 in all, though only a sampling will appear here). This week I hope to provide readers with some general ideas to get the creative discourse started; as the weeks progress, I'll be going into greater depth on some proposals.

To begin with, by what sort of mechanism would all of this constitutional change be achieved? Our present Constitution outlines two ways to bring about amendments. The method used for all amendments up until now has been a proposed amendment passing both houses of Congress by a two-thirds majority in each house, then getting ratified by three-quarters of the states. For interlocking reforms of the scope and scale that I am proposing, however, such a piecemeal process wouldn't work.

Instead, we need to turn to the second process, one never before used in the history of the United States: a Constitutional Convention. Thirty-four states would petition Congress for a Convention, and the Congress would be obligated to call it—while designing a "Call to Convention" document that would list the subjects to be considered by the delegates. The Congress would be able to, and should, bar the convention from addressing hot-button social issue amendments, such as abortion or gay marriage, or tampering with the Bill of Rights; if the convention does so anyway, Congress could refuse to send the amendments to the states for ratification, as it would have the right to do.

The ultimate check on any Convention, though, is the requirement that thirty-eight states ratify any proposed change to the Constitution. There are more than enough Blue States, and Red States, to stop any partisan or ideologically driven amendment dead in its tracks. It only takes a mere thirteen states to bring down the curtain on any change.

Under the proposals that I will discuss in succeeding days are some affecting each branch of the federal government. For instance, concerning the Congress, I would expand the size of the Senate to ease the dramatic disparity in representation among states—the massive inequality from a population perspective that directly impacts the legislation passed or killed daily in the Senate. I will make the policy case for an admittedly difficult political alteration: Each of the 10 most populous states would receive an extra two senators, and each of the next 15 most populous states would get one additional senator. The District of Columbia would also receive representation in the Senate.

The most far-reaching reform that I propose for the executive branch is a dramatic redistribution of war powers, restoring the Congress' original co-equal Constitutional role. This shift is not only achievable; it almost certainly has broad support among the American public after the experiences of Korea, Vietnam, and Iraq.

For the judiciary, under my plan, all federal judges would face a 15-year term limit, without renewal, and the Supreme Court would be expanded to 12 members from its present nine.

I also propose a new and quite necessary Article on Politics. The founders did not much care for the subject, believing neither in mass democracy nor political parties. They came to accept both as inevitable, required, and even healthful, but not until long after the Constitution was written. The lack of governing guidance in the Constitution has led to all sorts of mischief, not least the state free-for-all that has produced the insanely frontloaded primary schedule for 2008. And reform of the Electoral College system is an inevitable goal for a project like mine, so naturally I have included it.

Lastly, let me mention my suggestion of a new Constitutional Bill of Responsibilities, to balance the Bill of Rights. At its heart is universal national service (UNS) for the young. Domestic civilian, nonprofit, and Peace Corps service is included, not just military conscription. My detailed and cost-effective plan for UNS attempts to revive and channel the idealism of youth in much the way John F. Kennedy began to do with the Peace Corps in the early 1960s.

This is a mere posting of topics to get us started. I will be on-line to answer questions and hear other points of view, and I appreciate the opportunity to do so.

Tags: Larry Sabato, court-packing, mandatory national service, constitutional convention, constitution, reform, politics, Front Paged (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 584 comments

  •  Mandate Criminal Penalty For Consitutional Abuses (20+ / 0-)

    The reason the Constitution gets kicked around is that there are not real penalties for abusing it.

    By the by, did you know that even the word "Constitution" can get you put on a watch list?

    •  RE: Mandate Criminal Penalty (31+ / 0-)

      If using the word "Constitution" can get me put on a watch list, then given the provocative nature of my new book, "A More Perfect Constitution," I must already be on my way to Guantanamo. The Bush administration just hasn't told me yet.

      •  They're Not Like Us (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Rebecca, Brian82

        Larry,

        I don't think the Republicans are like most of America.  They are arrogant, they are selfish, they are nasty and they don't mind bleeding America of everything of value.  

        Maybe it's not criminal but take a look at this video entitled, Tryphorgettin.  
        http://www.youtube.com/...

        It's one thing to attack someone for what they have done, but these bastard Republicans have no problem lying and distorting and cheating Ameericans of the truth.  I am sorry, they are not all like that.  These are evil people.

        They are not like us, as someone on here said the other day.

        "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." Sinclair Lewis

        by cpa1 on Fri Sep 28, 2007 at 01:32:32 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  To say that Clinton raped someone (4+ / 0-)

          And I remember this character Juanita Broaddrick, is about as low as you can go.  I have urged that the Democrats should beat the living daylights out of these Republicans and deal with them with disgust and ridicule but they don't ever learn.  

          That weakness, not being able to fight this Republican pond scum, is why Americans think they are weak and there is no question in my mind that that is why John Kerry lost the election, despite the Republican shenanigans in Ohio.

          "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." Sinclair Lewis

          by cpa1 on Fri Sep 28, 2007 at 01:47:56 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  And in large part why Hillary Clinton is (3+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Clem Yeobright, Fireshadow, Spekkio

            a favorite of Democrats and far ahead in all the polls.  She won't take any crap from anyone...least of all the 'vast right-wing conspiracy.'  She named it and she was right and few have her experience in standing up to them and fighting back.  Backbone is her middle name.

            Tell me how you spend your time and how you spend your money -- I'll tell you what your values are.

            by oldpro on Fri Sep 28, 2007 at 05:59:42 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  Another book in a similar vein (0+ / 0-)

        Our Undemocratic Constitution by Sanford Levinson.  For those interested in teh topic, this might also be good reading.  Also, I have a personal blog at wordpress dedicated mostly to this topic, albeit my blog is aimed at democratizing our society, primarily through constitutional amendments.

        -9.88,-7.59 Just because empire is an ugly word doesn't mean you're not living in one.

        by real democracy on Fri Sep 28, 2007 at 11:28:39 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  If that's the case (0+ / 0-)

        I hope you fly in cheap shoes on the book tour.

        Have you heard? The vice president's gone mad. - Bob Dylan, 1966

        by textus on Sat Sep 29, 2007 at 06:05:05 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Really, on a watch list for the very word? (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Spekkio

      That is intriguing.  Whence comes this piece of information?  And here I thought you had to reiterate "jihad! Jihad! JIHAD!!" to get onto that list.

      "The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function." -- Edward Teller

      by lgmcp on Fri Sep 28, 2007 at 01:16:18 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  the problem with that (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      klarfax, Andy30tx

      "violating the Constitution" is an inevitable question-begger.

      I mean, violations of the 4th and 5th and 6th cause evidence to be excluded, other violations can be enjoined, each provision works differently.  You'd have to be really specific about the kinds of violations, using "enacting legislation" and whatnot.

      "I wish God were alive to see this." - Homer Simpson

      by jdodsonvls on Fri Sep 28, 2007 at 01:22:33 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Ah, yes, the Fourth Amendment (3+ / 0-)

        Now so tattered and threadbare as to be for all practical and legal purposes totally nullified.

        It is a contemplation of the manner in which rights, such as those clearly guaranteed by the 4th, have been quietly eroded away by judicial pettifogging, which makes the idea of "reforming" or "improving" the Constitution quite laughable.

        We have a perfectly good Constitution right now, if only we would cease to ignore it.

        --

        •  yes... (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          zett, bernardpliers

          and at the hands of the so-called "strict constructionists."  "Search" doesn't really mean search, "probable cause" doesn't apply to searches that aren't "searches," and apparently the word "warrant" is just fluff.

          "I wish God were alive to see this." - Homer Simpson

          by jdodsonvls on Fri Sep 28, 2007 at 03:44:49 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  However, these kinds of abuses could be prevented (0+ / 0-)

          by changing the structure of the government, which would of necessity involve constitutional amendments.  Part of the reason that our executive branch is prone to such abuses is the singular nature of its direction.  That is, having a single person in charge of the entire executive branch, responsible for appointing all senior executive officers, and for the most part having the right to fire them as well, means that the entire executive functions "at the pleasure of the president," and however the president is inclined, so shall the rest of the executive be administered.  And most functions of government fall under the executive, including of course, the military and law enforcement, which leaves the other branches with not much to fight back with.

          Of course, "executive privilege" and the power to appoint members of the federal judiciary add to the problem.

          Even the legislative branch has some decidedly undemocratic elements to it, not because of the constitution, but the remedies to these problems can, and probably should, lie in constitutional amendments.

          To fix the problem with the consolidation of executive power, we must break that power up.  Instead of a president, we should designate a disparate executive made up of a Secretariat committee of four persons to run each department of the federal executive.  To deal with situations involving the coordination of multiple departments of the executive, there should be a Steering Committee with a rotating membership, such that every member of any of the executive Secretariats will serve an equal amount of time on the steering committee during their four-year term.

          The Executive Secretariats should neither be elected by the people directly (which might lead them to claim "a mandate for the people"), nor be appointed by either of the existing branches of government.  Rather, they should be "hired" by committees elected specifically for that purpose, and it should remain clear that they are serving simply to administer the executive departments, to carry out the policies and laws as directed by the Legislative Branch, not to determine policy.  I'd recommend assembling the Executive Hiring Board (or whatever we might call it) by electing two persons for each House District (in the off years between House elections) to be in the pool of candidates, then have lotteries to determine the hiring committees for each department.  

          Candidates for the positions in the Secretariats would apply, as in any job, and those members of the hiring pool who were not selected to be on any specific hiring committee would read applications to determine which candidates are qualified to be considered by the committees, and recommend which committee(s) should interview them.  Second, the people would vote in an election of planks.  Rather than voting on any specific people, the people would vote on a variety of possible positions with regard to the issues facing the nation.  Regarding each issue, any plank which receives at least 10% support should be considered part of the hiring paradigm, and the committees should try to hire an executive that reflects a representative cross-section of America, rather than any single party's perspective.

          I have ideas on reforming the Legislative Branch as well, but I've rambled on long enough for this comment.

          -9.88,-7.59 Just because empire is an ugly word doesn't mean you're not living in one.

          by real democracy on Sat Sep 29, 2007 at 12:13:25 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  What does that even mean? It makes no sense. n/t (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      klarfax
    •  Bill of Responsibilities: Natl Svc: Corporations (10+ / 0-)

      Larry: What's missing from your national service proposal is any equivalent measure for incorporated legal entities that are "legal persons" rather than "natural persons."

      1.  A couple of ideas re. wartime sacrifice:

      A wartime military draft exposes natural persons to risk of death and serious injury, but imposes no such burden on legal persons.  These are hardly equal stakes.  

      During peacetime, defense contractors can earn their usual profits on their products and services.  During wartime they are obligated to produce at nonprofit rates, "at-cost."   Thus the sacrifice of time on the part of draftees is to some degree matched by an analogous sacrifice on the part of legal persons that might otherwise benefit from war.

      Or, during wartime, corporate assets would be subject to a draft as well, and siezed in proportion to deaths and serious injuries in combat, creating the equivalent of "death and injury" for these corporations, and thereby exposing them to an equal-stakes risk analogous to death in combat.

      1.  As well we might want to reform entirely the set of obligataions that go along with legal personhood.

      For example at present, the law requires that corporate boards of directors act to maximize return to investors (shareholders).  This creates a positive-feedback incentive with no corresponding negative feedback mechanism as a check and balance against the various excesses that I hardly have to ennumerate here.  

      By way of balance, we might want to:

      a) Obligate any entity that is publicly traded or is larger than a specified threshold size (the threshold being specified in terms of a relationship e.g. market share or some other relative measure) to also serve a public interest purpose as well as the interests of its financial stakeholders.  That public interest involved might typically be mitigation of the "side effects" of the entitiy's activities.  Or it might be something entirely unrelated in order to prevent conflicts of interest.  

      b)  Strip legal persons of their ability to influence debate on public issues and candidates and ballot measures.  In essence apply the same limits as presently apply to 501c3 nonprofits, across the board to all incorporated entities.  Tax exemption is presently considered a privilege for which the corresponding obligation is to refrain from participation in politics as such.  However, legal personhood is also a privilege and can thus be linked to obligations of this sort.  (This is a compromise from a classical libertarian position (held by at least some libertarian democrats) that holds that there should not be legal personhood in the first place.)  

      c)  Obligate legal persons to neutralize any cost externalities they create in the economy, the environment, or society-at-large.  In other words, internalize all externalities.  (This is a core libertarian position as well: externalities violate the principle of consenting adult transactions.)

      ---

      Re. national service for the young:  

      I would be wary of attaching this to a demographic, e.g. age.  I would also be wary of creating one-size-fits-all scenarios.  

      In no way should any national service provision be promoted on any grounds that have to do with "the value of the experience" or "building character" or whatever.   Social engineering of that type is wholly illegitimate: individuals have the right to determine for themselves what sort of person they will be, so long as they are not planning to engage in criminal behaviors.  

      National service can and should only be justified on the basis of pressing national needs for which other measures are not feasible.  And before we go conscripting young people, we should be looking for other measures that will be effective in alleviating these pressing needs.  

      National service projects should be set up in a manner that enables local initiative: for example a group forms out of some existing local constituency that has identified a pressing need, and applies for a national service status, and obtains funding to enact their proposal.  A typical example would be inner city youth, in conjunction with their school teachers, addressing the issue of gang violence in their area by developing a gang diversion program, organizing neighborhood watches, and developing a civilian patrol program.  

      The point here being that once a national need is identified, local participation can identify its local ramifications and develop the means of addressing them in a manner that national-level management may not be able to.  (By example: FEMA seems to think Louisiana is doing just fine, but a locally empowered service entity could act where FEMA does not.)

      •  Brilliant (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        G2geek, Spekkio

        While I for one am pretty firmly against legal personhood, I think your proposal would mitigate the worst effects of it that we see today.

        "Cynicism is a sorry wisdom." - Barack Obama

        by BlueGenes on Fri Sep 28, 2007 at 04:27:40 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  thanks, and.... (4+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          zett, Andy30tx, Noor B, Spekkio

          Realistically there needs to be a means by which groups of ordinary people can form businesses that can obtain investment.  If there was not an incorporation mechanism, then only very wealthy people could create new business startups.

          Also there are some types of projects that are simply not possible on the scale of individuals: for example a steel mill, an automobile company (Tesla Motors comes to mind), a computer manufacturer (Apple), etc.  All of these require funds on a scale that simply isn't possible for individuals.  Even Bill Gates would have a hard time setting up a steel mill.  

          So for those reasons we need to have an incorporation mechanism, to create legal entities whose existence is independent of their founders.  And as well for the sake of continuity of a business entity after its founders have gone on to other things or died (otherwise imagine the enormous legal mess that would occur every time a key person enters or leaves a company).  

          However we necessarily have to have checks and balances, or we end up where we are today, with economic power that becomes de-facto political power outside of anyone's ability to limit its excesses.  Thus my proposals.

          (The key difference between Republican Libertarians and Democratic Libertarians is:  RLs believe that only the state has coercive power that must be checked; RDs believe that private-sector entities can also obtain effective coercive power and thus must also be checked.)

      •  To ensure that corporations serve the public good (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        G2geek, Spekkio

        I suggest that a portion of each corporation's board should be elected by the citizens of the county in which the corporation is headquartered.  

        Alternatively, each county could elect a corporation coordination board whose sole purpose would be to serve as a liaison between the people and all coprorations operating in the county.

        I'm sure there are several other ideas out there that could also accomplish this local oversight, but some measure along these lines is needed.

        -9.88,-7.59 Just because empire is an ugly word doesn't mean you're not living in one.

        by real democracy on Sat Sep 29, 2007 at 12:24:37 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  A constitution convention (18+ / 0-)

    would be an idiotic idea.

    For every progressive there, there would by four conservatives...

    And what do you think that new constitution would look like?

    •  RE: A constitution convention (31+ / 0-)

      I understand your concern. But before you criticize a book that has taken me many years to write, I would appreciate it if you would at least take a look at it. I have 23 specific changes outlined for the Constitution. Furthermore, I have carefully designed a plan to call a Constitutional Convention with as few risks as possible.

      •  I agree with Nazgul, but I will ... (35+ / 0-)

        ...definitely look at your book. Maybe you can assuage my very deep worries. That will take a lot of assuaging.

        Like a cyclone, imperialism spins across the globe; militarism crushes peoples and sucks their blood like a vampire. K. Liebknecht

        by Meteor Blades on Fri Sep 28, 2007 at 01:17:54 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I seem to recall that the (14+ / 0-)

        Constitutional Convention was called for the limited purpose of revising the Articles of Confederation.  That limit didn't hold up too well.

        Also, the Articles of Confederation had a requirement that changes require unanimous consent.  The Constitutional Convention, however, simply proposed their own method of ratification.

        I would be a bit sceptical, therefore, of the restraints you mention.

        •  Sure it did. (4+ / 0-)

          They considered it--amendments--and concluded that it was like trying to build a Prius based on an Edsel.  So they PROPOSED a radical fix instead--which had to be ratified (accepted) to go into effect.

          The method of ratification was questionable, I agree.

          "Limited" is an absurd notion in this context.  A Convention has absolutely no power to impose changes.  It merely proposes them.

          If Bill Clinton was the first black president... why can't Obama be the first female president? -- wry twinger, DKos, 5 May '08

          by ogre on Fri Sep 28, 2007 at 03:12:05 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  well ogre (0+ / 0-)

            it's nice to see you still around. i'm not sure i care for the way sabato is characterizing the convnetion clause, or how his ideas for proposed amendments deserve more consideration than other ideas, but it's interesting to have kos endorsing on the front page.

            the 28th amendment should be a three-level flat tax: personal/business/corporate. imo. that one alone would go further than all the rest, including the sabato tinkerings.

            thanks for adding some clarity for folks who are afraid.

            Billion dollar presidential campaigns are for losers.

            by john de herrera on Sat Sep 29, 2007 at 10:29:17 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  You mean like the last one? (16+ / 0-)

        With all due respect, you can't come on this blog, post a diary and then complain that people haven't read your book...I am responding to your diary, not your book.

        If you wanted to be clearer, add the content to your diary.

        On the other hand, you can't control a constitutional convention results. Yes there will be a ratification process, but all bets are off, you would have to control the process of calling the convention in each state that made the call (and each state will be different).

        I would argue that it is not a controllable environment when you have a much better conservative noise machine and an MSM that is complicit in moving public opinion for that.

        In addition, you need to be very careful, because every change has consequences. People tend to focus on the fix, without looking at the new structure.

        So yes, people are pissed at the current system, but that doesn't mean that change for change sake will result in a better outcome.

        Institutional rules matter.

        You want to clean things up...make Congressional districts more competitive and limit the amount of money an individual donor can make to $100 per candidate with a $10,000 cap on total donations.

        •  Precisely! A convention cannot be the creature of (8+ / 0-)

          the Congress; in fact, it can abolish the Congress.

          If Congress wants changes, let it establish a committee or a commission to study them and then submit the product to the states for ratification.

          If the states want wholesale changes, then they will petition for the Convention and all hell will break loose....

          You kids behave or I'm turning this universe around RIGHT NOW! - god

          by Clem Yeobright on Fri Sep 28, 2007 at 01:34:27 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Now is not the time for a convention (8+ / 0-)

            As pointed out above, Republicans are evil.  They would use this opportunity to put corporations firmly in control.  

            Can you imagine the millions, if not billions, that would be spent on lobbying?

            The result would likely be something like a third house of Congress:  The House of Lords CEOs.

            Bush Administration: Proving the saying, "You can fool most of the people some of the time, and 30% 24% 19% all the time."

            by Helpless on Fri Sep 28, 2007 at 01:46:38 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Ahem (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Bo Team

            Congress could refuse to send the amendments to the states for ratification

            Riiiiiight.

            Yay! The top 1% likes us better now!

            by freshair2 on Fri Sep 28, 2007 at 02:29:56 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  More likely it would withhold highway funds (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Spekkio

              from any state that declined to ratify.

              We'll call it 'the double-nickels constitution' ...

              You kids behave or I'm turning this universe around RIGHT NOW! - god

              by Clem Yeobright on Fri Sep 28, 2007 at 02:44:52 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  That's the falsehood in the argument (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              ogre

              Article V does not allow congress to limit what the convention considers.

              "The United States will always do the right thing, after trying all the other options." ~ Winston Churchill

              by Gregory Wonderwheel on Fri Sep 28, 2007 at 02:55:51 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  and well it shouldn't (0+ / 0-)

                Congress is by its nature a very conservative body. I don't mean that they always favor conservative policy, but they do tend to favor maintaining the status quo in regards to our political system, since they are by and large part of it.  Most likely, the reforms most needed -- public financing, severe term limits, proportional representation -- would be the items withheld by Congress so as not to endanger their careers.  As long as we leave it to Congress, we will never have citizen self-government, we will retain control by the elites.

                -9.88,-7.59 Just because empire is an ugly word doesn't mean you're not living in one.

                by real democracy on Sat Sep 29, 2007 at 12:59:53 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  It can abolish Congress? (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Clem Yeobright, Noor B

            Uh.  No.

            It could propose that, yes.  But the means of ratification are set forth in the Constitution.  You'd have to get ratification in 3/4 of the states.  There's no chance of ratifying that idea.

            If Bill Clinton was the first black president... why can't Obama be the first female president? -- wry twinger, DKos, 5 May '08

            by ogre on Fri Sep 28, 2007 at 03:13:48 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  More precisely, then (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Andy30tx

              It can abolish the Congress that called it.

              It can create a single-chamber, two-chamber, or 8-chamber legislature to replace the Congress of the 1787 Constitution, and declare the dissolution of that Congress on a date certain.

              And there's nothing that Congress can do about it.

              This was discussed in detail by the 'framers', and the concept of who is a 'creature' of whom was discussed at length in terms of constitutional theory.

              Better?

              You kids behave or I'm turning this universe around RIGHT NOW! - god

              by Clem Yeobright on Fri Sep 28, 2007 at 04:24:10 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  No, it cannot (0+ / 0-)

                It has no constitutional authority to enact anything without the ratification 3/4 of the states. It controls no police force to remove people.  It would have no power to do anything but make proposals.  Why the republican-esque fear tactics?

                Even the original Convention did not establish anything until it was ratified.  

                I'd have to agree with those who have said that the method of ratification of the original constitution was suspect, since some states would be brought into thie new union even without ratifying it - tantamount to forcing someone to become a partner in a new start-up business without their consent - but the convention itself did not enact or create anything, except the document.

                -9.88,-7.59 Just because empire is an ugly word doesn't mean you're not living in one.

                by real democracy on Sat Sep 29, 2007 at 01:10:01 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  You're right, but not about the republican-esque (0+ / 0-)

                  The R-esque part I don't understand at all.

                  Of course nothing happens until ratification. Whoopee! Terrific insight on your part.

                  The question at hand is whether Congress can refuse to submit the new constitution to the states.

                  It can't.  It may try, but it will fail. A convention cannot be the creature of the Congress. Just as the original convention of the states was not a creature of the Continental Congress, and that body was not permitted to choose whether to submit the product of the convention to the states to be ratified by the procedures described in the constitution, not by procedures prescribed or even endorsed by the Congress.

                  I'm also bewildered that you say states enter the union without ratifying the constitution. Are you talking about Rhode Island or Tennessee? In either case, ratification - explicit for RI, implicit for TN - preceded statehood.

                  You kids behave or I'm turning this universe around RIGHT NOW! - god

                  by Clem Yeobright on Sat Sep 29, 2007 at 09:46:00 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Oh wait (0+ / 0-)

                  apparently you are contending that when 75% of the states ratified, 100% of the states became members of the United States.  That's just not the case.

                  The new Constitution will no doubt make provisions for the states that decline ratification (which provisions may of course be 'tough titties').

                  And the new Constitution may defer to the sitting Congress and the old Constitution to establish the procedures for ratification. I wouldn't bet on it.

                  You kids behave or I'm turning this universe around RIGHT NOW! - god

                  by Clem Yeobright on Sat Sep 29, 2007 at 09:52:31 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

          •  But Congress doesn't want change (0+ / 0-)

            however, we the people need it, and our country needs it.  

            Congress, overall, has a nice little game set up.  The incumbents almost always win, and every census, they redraw the lines to make it even more sure (or to return to the certainty that has gradually dwindled since the last redistricting).  They have the best health care and retirement package in America, immunity from arrest in certain situations, and they determine their own salaries.

            There are a few different ways that delegates to a Constitutional Convention could be chosen, but none of them arelikely to result in a radical convention.  If they are chosen by state legislators or by elections, we are likely to end up primarily with people not much different than those who make up Congress and our state legislatures. Although they are less likely to be "career politicians," they are very likely to support most aspects of the status quo.

            For those of you concerned that it would be dominated by conservatives and/or neocons, you should realize that currently 22 states' legislatures are controlled by Democrats, while only 15 are controlled by Republicans.  12 are split, and Nebraska's is non-partisan.  Furthermore, 28 governors are Democrats, and only 22 are Republican.  And these legislatures and governors were leected by the people of those states, so whether the people, the governors or the legislatures are doing the selection, if there is a partisan imbalance, it is likely to favor democrats right now.  Furthermore, the partisan make-up of the delegates could be pre-determined.  It could be predetermined that 35% would be Democrats, 35% Republicans, 13% independent conservatives, 13% independent liberals, 2% Greens and 2% Libertarians.

            But the paranoia that some of you have expressed about a runaway convention that will somehow create proposals that would have severely negative impacts on our society, yet would be ratified by the states, is at least unfounded, if not absurd.

            -9.88,-7.59 Just because empire is an ugly word doesn't mean you're not living in one.

            by real democracy on Sat Sep 29, 2007 at 12:54:03 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Unfounded? Absurd? How about inevitable? (0+ / 0-)

              Since any proposal would be interpreted by some segment as having 'severely negative impacts', that situation is inevitable.

              You start your post by saying 'Congress doesn't want change' - doesn't that imply that much of the sitting Congress would assert 'severely negative impacts'?

              You kids behave or I'm turning this universe around RIGHT NOW! - god

              by Clem Yeobright on Sat Sep 29, 2007 at 09:56:39 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Severely negative impact on their careers perhaps (0+ / 0-)

                but the impact on our society would be determined by empirical objective facts, not by opinions.

                Yes, amendments that reduce the immensely wealthy and/or immensely powerful to a somewhat level playing field with the rest of us would be interpreted by those persons or groups as negative on their own positions, but to claim a severely negative impact on our overall society would require a theory that supports economic and political inequality as good features for a society to have.

                -9.88,-7.59 Just because empire is an ugly word doesn't mean you're not living in one.

                by real democracy on Sun Sep 30, 2007 at 01:13:11 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

        •  It appears to me (11+ / 0-)

          That he was invited here to discuss his book by kos.  The diary only offers the outlines of discussion points, no development, no specifics.  Yet people here are all over this like stink.  The point is to spur discussion.  But if you can't even get an outline published without an onslaught of discussion, what chance do you have to move it to dialogue?

          Of course change has consequences.  Of course, any course will be imperfect.  But how the hell would you know until you gave it a shot?

          Just wondering why the harsh reception to a guy who obviously is concerned about important issues, and was invited by the blogs founder????

          The Marks of a Leader: Generosity, Integrity, Wisdom

          by Timothy L Smith on Fri Sep 28, 2007 at 02:20:27 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Because it is so obviously fantasy (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Andy30tx

            being presented as actuality.
            When I read the introduction I was really excited. Then I read the body and the completely wrong interpretation of Article V. So if the author can't get Article V right, what's he got to stand on?

            Then the idea "the most far reaching change in the executive" is has to do with the war powers provision also doesn't instill conficence since theer is nothing wrong with the war powers provision as written.

            Then there is the idea that political party primaries should be written into the Constitution which is exactly the kind of matter that should NOT be included in fundamental documents like a constitution.

            So, since Kos invited him, it makes me wonder what is up with Kos? Why try to foist off this ill considered stuff onto this blog?

            "The United States will always do the right thing, after trying all the other options." ~ Winston Churchill

            by Gregory Wonderwheel on Fri Sep 28, 2007 at 03:02:11 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  'with all due respect' is one of those phrases (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Bodean, jdodsonvls

          that ususally means quiet the opposite. short tempered response?

          You are a child of the universe; no less than the trees and the stars... Desiderata

          by byteb on Fri Sep 28, 2007 at 02:38:08 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  nazgul (6+ / 0-)

          With all due respect, nazgul, Larry wasn't complaining. I think he was asking people to read his book before calling his ideas "idiotic."

      •  You should start with the plan first. (3+ / 0-)

        If you want anyone to think a convention is a good idea you should start with how you plan to keep a convention tethered to the ideas that you think are good and not the ideas that the rabid right want to put into place.

        See my comment below titled The elephant fly in the ointment for more discussion of this problem.

        "The United States will always do the right thing, after trying all the other options." ~ Winston Churchill

        by Gregory Wonderwheel on Fri Sep 28, 2007 at 01:52:31 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Be Careful (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Andy30tx, Gregory Wonderwheel

        I tend to follow Karl Popper's belief that big, comprehensive fixes tend to mess things up, and that the best way to improve matters is what he called "muddling through."  As the butterfly says, small changes, on the margins, of complex systems, can have effects that are disproportionately large and inherently unpredictable.

        Many of the changes you are calling for don't need a change in the Constitution, such as the UNS.  Why drag them in?

        Many of the problems you see have been the result of abuse of the legal system, such as the legal fiction that a corporation is a "person," eligible for all the legal rights of a human being, but without the physical (and legal) restrictions that human beings enjoy.  That is the fundamental distortion in the political system today.  (For instance, how is increasing copyrights and patents held by corporations to seventy-five or a hundred years going to make the human beings that created those ideas more productive?  In fact, by restricting creativity to protect corporate holdings, they block creativity!!)

        Until the political power of money and corporations is restricted, I would hesitate -- or rather fight against -- any moves to make wholesale changes to our basic governing document.  Otherwise, we end up worse than we are today, with an administration gutting the rights and responsibilities that already lie in our basic document, and no one standing up to say they can't do that.

        Have you given consideration to proportional representation systems, economic and media regulations to prevent concentrations of power, or the implication that evolutionary economics has demonstrated that neoclassical economics is a corrupt sham at the service of big business?

        Larry, your proposal does nothing about our real problems, and may make them worse.  I don't have to read your book to say that.

        "... there is no humane way to rule people against their will." Naomi Klein, The Shock Doctrine

        by Noziglia on Fri Sep 28, 2007 at 02:41:10 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  How about a national referendum on impeachment? (4+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          zett, Andy30tx, Noor B, Spekkio

          It seems to me that Venezuella, where their president was subjected to a naitonal recall referendum, has greater democracy than the USA where we have Democrats telling us impeachment is off the table.

          If you want to amend Article II executive provisions I can think of no more important amendment than to give the people a real mechanism to provide for a recall referendum vote on removing the president when Congress won't impeach.

          "The United States will always do the right thing, after trying all the other options." ~ Winston Churchill

          by Gregory Wonderwheel on Fri Sep 28, 2007 at 03:07:01 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  my car needs a good washing (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Canadian Reader, Clem Yeobright

          Maybe I'll strip it down to the last bolt, disassemble the engine, even deflate the tires. Then think about putting it back together, maybe add a few things I'd like, such as a better radio; maybe take the opportunity to leave a few things out as well. Good plan. I have the weekend mostly free anyway.

          •  But think of the fun you'll have learning (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            smintheus, Andy30tx

            to drive it again!

            I knew a guy who rebuilt his own steering (early 60s) and left out a gear so that he had to turn the wheel right to go left and vice versa.  He said he got lots of stares while making a left turn at a left arrow in front of someone ...

            This may be too much to believe, except I saw it: He let a friend drive it to a keg party in the hills above Stanford, and the other guy made it around the first 5 (or so) curves successfully, then reverted to muscle memory on the next one and put the front two wheels over a cliff before he could stop. Damnedest thing; I picked them up and took them to the party and after they were well oiled someone took them back to figure out how to dislodge the vehicle.

            Nah, that couldn't have happened! (except it did)

            You kids behave or I'm turning this universe around RIGHT NOW! - god

            by Clem Yeobright on Fri Sep 28, 2007 at 04:35:31 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  If you think a constitutional convention (0+ / 0-)

            necessarily involves dismantling the entire existing constitution, then you simply doen't understand the process.  It is more like taking your car in to fix the problems that are causing one tire, or one brake pad, to always wear down faster than the others, or to try to figure out why you keep having to replace the fuel pump twice as often as you ought to.

            It seems very plain to me that we have some serious problems in our system:

            1. The last three Republican presidential administrations (counting Ford as a continuation of Nixon and Bush I as a continuation of Reagan) have been rife with abuse, corruption, and a quest for autocratic power, none of which our constitution is prepared to prevent, because it has created a single very powerful executive.  Combined with various additions to executive power over the years by congressional submission and judicial decisions, and we have a situation that, if not addressed soon, could result in the next Republican, or perhgaps even Democratic president taking it even further.  We are already not too far from autocratic totalitarianism.  We must take steps to halt that trend before it is too late.
            1. Congress: from the fact that the vast majority of incumbents win their re-election bids, to campaign contributions becoming more important than constituent concerns in determining Congressional positions on issues, the unrepresentative nature of our supposedly representative chamber.

            The politicians have got the system wired to such a point that most of us have almost no say in our government whatsoever.  They know which party is going to win most seats, and the top levels of the parties decide who will fill them.  There are only a handful of "swing" states, and the rest of us have effectively no voice in choosing the single most powerful office in our government, and with no recall, the people have no power over the president...

            Our system is not yet broken, but it is making enough noises that we need to take it in.

            -9.88,-7.59 Just because empire is an ugly word doesn't mean you're not living in one.

            by real democracy on Sat Sep 29, 2007 at 01:50:41 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  If you think a constitutional convention (0+ / 0-)

            necessarily involves dismantling the entire existing constitution, then you simply doen't understand the process.  It is more like taking your car in to fix the problems that are causing one tire, or one brake pad, to always wear down faster than the others, or to try to figure out why you keep having to replace the fuel pump twice as often as you ought to.

            It seems very plain to me that we have some serious problems in our system:

            1. The last three Republican presidential administrations (counting Ford as a continuation of Nixon and Bush I as a continuation of Reagan) have been rife with abuse, corruption, and a quest for autocratic power, none of which our constitution is prepared to prevent, because it has created a single very powerful executive.  Combined with various additions to executive power over the years by congressional submission and judicial decisions, and we have a situation that, if not addressed soon, could result in the next Republican, or perhgaps even Democratic president taking it even further.  We are already not too far from autocratic totalitarianism.  We must take steps to halt that trend before it is too late.
            1. Congress: from the fact that the vast majority of incumbents win their re-election bids, to campaign contributions becoming more important than constituent concerns in determining Congressional positions on issues, the unrepresentative nature of our supposedly representative chamber.

            The politicians have got the system wired to such a point that most of us have almost no say in our government whatsoever.  They know which party is going to win most seats, and the top levels of the parties decide who will fill them.  There are only a handful of "swing" states, and the rest of us have effectively no voice in choosing the single most powerful office in our government, and with no recall, the people have no power over the president...

            Our system is not yet broken, but it is making enough noises that we need to take it in.

            -9.88,-7.59 Just because empire is an ugly word doesn't mean you're not living in one.

            by real democracy on Sat Sep 29, 2007 at 01:50:45 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  a Constitutional Convention (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Clem Yeobright

              involves whatever its participants want it to involve. And since a good proportion of any such delegates would likely want to make radical changes, then in the end you've got no assurances that anything will be left undisturbed.

              •  if "a good proportion" (0+ / 0-)

                means a supermajority, and if indeed a supermajority would want to make radical changes, then perhaps that should be sufficient evidence that radical change is needed.

                I, for one, believe it is.  Our current system will fail if it is not fixed. How soon? Perhaps no-one can say.  We can only wait for the next administration that is ready to take advantage of the weaknesses in it, especially if combined with a weak opposition at the time.

                However, I am more concerned that too many delegates would not be ready for teh radical changes that I believe are necessary, and we'd still have a president, and poor representation when it was all over.  If we're lucky we might get public funding of elections, or an end to corporate personhood - both of which would help, but would not be enough, in my opinion.  It might be enough to allow the nation as an entity to regain some stability and longevity, but it would still leave us in a very undemocratic country in bad need of social justice, which I believe can only be acquired and maintained through political equality, i.e. participatory deliberative democracy.

                -9.88,-7.59 Just because empire is an ugly word doesn't mean you're not living in one.

                by real democracy on Sun Sep 30, 2007 at 01:00:03 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

        •  what you call abuse I call common law (0+ / 0-)

          Corporate personhood is an unfortunate devolution, but we live in a common law system, and the constitution is an open ended document.  Corporate personhood is, unfortunately, a matter of constitutional law at this point.  When our constitution evolves itself into a corner, the ideal (although maybe impractical) solution is a broad, democratic clarification, for example that, whatever the prior judicial interpretations of the first amendment, from now on corporations aren't persons.

          "I wish God were alive to see this." - Homer Simpson

          by jdodsonvls on Fri Sep 28, 2007 at 04:04:44 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  GIven the mixture (0+ / 0-)

            between common and statutory law that we have, this would really require a change to the Constitution that the corporate lawyers can't misinterpret.

            The original basis for the claim that the SC had declared corporations to be persons was not an actual SC decision, but a footnote inserted without the approval of any Justice by the Clerk of the Court at the time, who was a career railroad lawyer.

            This has then been cited by other corporate lawyers over time, and has thus become settled common law.  It is the opinion of many that this status of corporations allows them to have undue influence on our politics, and is the real source of our problems, including the fascist nature of the current administration (remember that the fascists were originally corporate-driven).

            Remember also that some of the more important provisions of the Constitution were those that, in fact, removed the influence of The People over policy and law.  As the saying goes, we are a country of law, not people, and the Rule of Law trumps the Tyranny of the Majority.

            As we all learned in high school, but have since forgotten, because it has been easy to manipulate reforms meant to increase democratic participation to instead increase corporate influence via the media and the money.

            Money is not speech.

            The greatest threat to free enterprise is complete abandonment of regulation and law over corporations.  Ayn Rand was an idiot.

            Happy Muddling Through.

            "... there is no humane way to rule people against their will." Naomi Klein, The Shock Doctrine

            by Noziglia on Tue Oct 02, 2007 at 01:50:26 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  What make you think that... (4+ / 0-)

        that the scariest idea in the constition would be anything but scary. The Constitional convention is the only, I repeat, ONLY body mentioned in the Constitiution not BOUND by the constition. The reason that the Senate is elected by the people today was due to the threat of one, and there were a number of attempts to actually set one up, one of which got enough states to make a genuine call.

        the federal government wisely ignored the call, citing some b.s. about the age of some of the petitions. This was in 1964.

        What makes you think that a "ConCon2" would be packed with progressives? How about relgious gun nuts who would make Mormanism the state relgion? Or would ban the Democratic party, or Make Jeb Bush king?

        The reason the Constition works so well is that the the framers looked at each other and altruistically decided to protect posterity from people like themselves.

        You carefully designed a plan, huh? Do you know what the "Karl Rove for King party"would do with that plan, or the NRA, or the "Hoo-Ha Church of Jesus?"

        Tare it up and set up a monarchy. "ConCon2" is too fucking dangerous.

        •  your paranoia would be funny if it wasn't so sad (0+ / 0-)

          What logical reason do you have for assuming that a constitutional convention would be attended predominantly by conservatives or worse?

          Congress' ingnoring the will of the people and/otr the states in calling for a convention is blatantly undemocratic, and exhibits the inherent corruption of a legislature made up of career politicians afraid to mess with the status quo because it might threaten their cushy gigs and replace them with true representatives of the people.

          Your fear plays right into that, and helps to keep us in a state that is becoming more and more autocratic.

          -9.88,-7.59 Just because empire is an ugly word doesn't mean you're not living in one.

          by real democracy on Sat Sep 29, 2007 at 01:59:58 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Sorry, Professor Sabato (0+ / 0-)

        I was required to read your drivel in grad school,so I won't be buying your Republican slanted book.  

        Another Proud Edwards Democrat.

        by lzachary on Fri Sep 28, 2007 at 03:34:00 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Nazgul... (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Gregory Wonderwheel

      ...I'm not sure if I agree with you or not (I think this whole diary is basically fantasy anyway), but I appreciate the contrarian sentiment and your eloquence in stating it.

    •  this level of disrespect without substance (14+ / 0-)

      sucks.

      like or dislike, agree or disagree, be (semi)decent about it.  calling it idiotic without knowing any of the substance implies you dont know what the word even means.  saying it would not be helpful to the progressive cause, now that is a different story entirely.

      since i think it too borderline, i will hold off on the TR, and instead politely request that you show a little bit more respect, and give a little more thought, when you disagree with a somewhat complicated concept.

      The world is so cold and the rhythm is your blanket, wrap yourself up in it, if you love it then you'll thank it.

      by Ajax the Greater on Fri Sep 28, 2007 at 02:06:39 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  (567) There was substance there (6+ / 0-)

        "For every progressive there, there would be four conservatives."

        I don't want to dismiss this idea out of hand -- though if you get the joke in my title you'll see how tempting that is -- but the basic problem is obvious.  Creating a new Constitution is the biggest electoral thing we could do.  It would be creating the World Series of Super Bowls.  It would be the equivalent in its import of electing a 30-year dictator.

        There is a lot of money in this country, concentrated, in our new Gilded Age, that would step up to such a competition with literally unprecedented force.  Bribes, browbeating, media spasms, dirty tricks like we've never seen before would be the order of the day.

        We progressives are simply in no shape to compete in what would be such a capital-intensive game for all the marbles.

        Prof. Sabato's solution is that we can rest easy given that 38 states would be needed to pass any changes.  My first answer to that is that, historically, it's a lot easier to buy a state legislature than to buy Congress.  But even if that weren't so, I think that there is almost no State in the Union -- and almost certainly not 13 of them -- that could be counted on to stand steadfast against terrible (though perhaps subtle and arcane) changes backed by a media blitz and plenty of bribe money coming down the pike.

        Let's look at our most liberal states:

        Washington?  Almost elected Dino Rossi as Governor.

        Oregon?  Voters got bamboozled by the land use initiative.

        California?  Prop 13, the Gray Davis recall, etc.

        Hawaii?  Republican Governor.

        New York?  Alphonse D'Amato, George Pataki.

        Massachusetts?  Mitt Romney.

        Vermont?  OK, Vermont might come through.  One down, 12 to go.

        Never play for "all the marbles" with someone who can afford to bludgeon and cheat.

        If somebody writes a book and doesn't care for [its] survival, he's an imbecile.

        ~ Umberto Eco

        by Major Danby on Fri Sep 28, 2007 at 03:14:59 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Four conservatives... (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      tunesmith, sunflight

      based on what?

      That's quite an assertion.  It deserves to be supported.

      If Bill Clinton was the first black president... why can't Obama be the first female president? -- wry twinger, DKos, 5 May '08

      by ogre on Fri Sep 28, 2007 at 03:09:01 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  but it can't (0+ / 0-)

        because we are not an 80% conservative nation.  Most of us are a blend of conservative and progressive ideas.  Some of us tend to be more one than the other.  But any method that might be used for selecting delegates to a convention is likely to yield a fairly even split between conservatives and progressives, with a sizable portion of centrists determining the "swing."

        I challenge you to demonstrate the model thatwould produce anything else.

        -9.88,-7.59 Just because empire is an ugly word doesn't mean you're not living in one.

        by real democracy on Sat Sep 29, 2007 at 02:10:17 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Additional Senators? (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Canadian Reader

      Twenty-five states get additional representation in the Senate and it only takes thirteen states to kill this proposal.  As I count, twenty-five states are guaranteed to vote against it.  Not gonna happen.

      "How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a spineless congress?" I want my country back.

      by gilacliff on Fri Sep 28, 2007 at 03:22:01 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yeah, I noticed that, too. (5+ / 0-)

        Of course... as a Canadian, I have the advantage of having witnessed in my own lifetime what a proposal to rethink a constitution can do to a national dialog.

        Hint: it ain't good. Every single interest group in the country views this as their one big chance to get what they want cast in concrete -- and to prevent other interest groups from getting what they want, if even the most tenuous connection can be drawn between that and a diminution of their own privileges. (And whaddayaknow, somehow it always can be.)

        Even nice people stop being so nice when this sort of thing begins. If you think you've got bitter acrimony now...

        Folly is fractal: the closer you look at it, the more of it there is.

        by Canadian Reader on Fri Sep 28, 2007 at 04:51:41 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Additional Senators (0+ / 0-)

        The diarist has, at least in this diary, not addressed the provision of the existing constitution that requires all the states to consent to an amendment to the equality of state representation in the Senate.

        Perhaps a more defensible amendment would be to provide for additional Senators to be elected nationally rather than by states. It could then be argued that no state, as a state, is treated less fairly than any other by the new distribution (the people of a state being constitutionally distinct from the state itself).

        That interpretation of the equality of representation clause might not be upheld, in which case the alternative would be to simply abolish the Senate. As the Populists pointed out, if each state has zero Senators equality still exists.

        There is no man alive who is sufficiently good to rule the life of the man next door to him. Sir Rhys Hopkin Morris, M.P.

        by Gary J on Sat Sep 29, 2007 at 01:19:20 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I'm not sure "idiotic" is the right word... (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Clem Yeobright

      "Devious" seems more suited.  
      One of Larry's initial premises is that the "Constitution" needs fixing because we need to make changes through additional "conventioning" to return to co-equal branches of gov't????
      .... as in the original intent????
      That does not compute!!

      I'd say we just need to enforce the Constitution and stop making sh*t up!
      Stop trying to steal my country from me!!!

      Does anybody else see the Animal Farm metaphor here?
      WHy is our Leader people failing us??

      "A lie repeated, may be accepted as fact, but the truth repeated becomes self evident." -Elonifer Skyhawk

      by Fireshadow on Fri Sep 28, 2007 at 09:35:38 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Sabato was incorrect and you are correct (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Clem Yeobright

        There is nothing about "co-equal branches" in the US Constitution. A glance at Article I compared to Articles II and III will show clearly that the congress dominates--as it should in a democracy.

        If the legislature stuck to legislating, the executive to executing and the judicial to adjudicating, the old republic would run like a clock. Unfortunately, we now have a rubber-stamp congress head-bobbing to a dictator with the support of the black-robed supremes.

        So I agree with you. The present Constitution is fine; we just need to enforce it. If it ain't broke don't replace it with something which could easily be worse, and just as liable to perversion.

        "War is a racket . . .the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives" . . . Smedley Butler

        by DonB on Sat Sep 29, 2007 at 06:00:43 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Alito, Roberts, Kennedy, Scalia, Thomas (0+ / 0-)

      Does anyone on this site prefer that we leave the Constitution in their hands?

      I recently attended an American Constitution Society lecture given by Judge Stephen Reinhardt of the 9th Circuit. He outlined a dark account of the history of constitutional jurisprudence by the Supreme Court (Lochner, Dred Scott, and more recently Grutter, etc.), while favorably noting the very brief interlude of the Warren court of the 1960s. Given the overall history of constitutional interpretation, which, with the exception of one brief interlude, has consistently and overwhelmingly generated decisions that have favored business interests and opposed individual rights, it is incredible to me that progressives on DailyKos would favor leaving interpretative authority to say what the Constitution is with five ideologues that are hostile to progressive views, or, going further, that DailyKos' members put their faith in an institution that has almost invariably disfavored, rather than supported, their preferred policies.

      We have achieved far more through the people, and the people's representatives, than through the nine typically white men in judges' robes. DailyKos' members have an awfully romanticized view of a document that treated blacks as three-fifths of a white and the institution that says what the words in that document mean.  I am 100% in favor of giving the people a greater say in what the Constitution means!

      In any case, I believe that there is a very compelling argument to be made in favor of a revitalized Constitutional discourse and amendment process. Even if few or no amendments were implemented through Sabato's proposed constitutional convention, I believe very strongly that enlivened public discourse on constitutional issues would strengthen, rather than weaken, progressive politics. And beyond topics that are strongly identified as "progressive," many more advances, as Sabato notes, could be made on issues in which there is no existing ideological fault line, and this is where I am particularly interested and hopeful that meaningful change could be achieved. For example, why wouldn't people in red states and blue states support limitations on political gerrymandering? Why wouldn't Republicans and Democrats support Congressional term limits? Such issues are virtually never put on the table by the entrenched political class, but progress on these "process" issues could result in much better governance in America.

  •  how would a new constitution... (13+ / 0-)