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I am a life long Democrat.  Never voted for a Republican and never will.  But I am tired of Hillary supporters asking me if I will support Hillary if she gets it.  So here is the olive branch: I will vote for the Democratic nominee whoever it is.  But I will only support the Democratic nominee if they make this pledge...  

I agree that whoever has the lead in pledged delegates credentialed by the DNC after all Primaries and Caucuses should be the Party's nominee and if I should have less pledged delegates then I will withdraw my name from consideration and support the nominee.  I further agree that Michigan and Florida will not be counted as per the DNC rules unless their respective state parties reach an agreement with the DNC that is acceptable to both candidates.

If team Hillary accepts this then I will pledge not just to vote for her but to support her candidacy.  If not, then I will vote for her but will withhold my support (financial and physical) because my fears - that she and her husband care more for themselves than for the democratic process or the Democratic Party - will have been realized.

Originally posted to kant on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 11:11 AM PST.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Hillary wants Florida and Michigan, and she'll (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jeepdad, Mia Dolan

    eventually get them.  No matter what the cost to the party.

    Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

    by darthstar on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 11:15:53 AM PST

    •  Both candidates went into this knowing the (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      darthstar, jlb1972

      rules.  One, there are superdelegates (and both candidates have courted them).  Two, Michigan and Florida's delegates do not count in full, because they scheduled their primaries early.

      Seems like if you argue in favor of the ground rules, you have to follow them.

      That being said, I think the superdelegates out to ensure that the nominee reflects the will of the Democratic voters.

      "To be afraid is to behave as if the truth were not true." -- Bayard Rustin

      by Joelarama on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 11:20:01 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  That's the problem (0+ / 0-)

        Seems like if you argue in favor of the ground rules, you have to follow them.

        The problem is that Hillary doesn't want to follow the ground rules.  Thus the olive branch - if Hillary wins by the ground rules, Obama supporters will support her.  If she wins by changing the ground rules, I wouldn't blame anyone who didn't vote for her.  

        •  No, I'm making the point that (0+ / 0-)

          BOTH Hillary and Obama want it both ways.

          The rules include the superdelegates.  Obama is suggesting he may challenge their legitimacy.

          And, threating not to back the nominee is the ultimate blackmail (of course, Obama would never do this.  Just some of his supporters here.)

          "To be afraid is to behave as if the truth were not true." -- Bayard Rustin

          by Joelarama on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 11:32:08 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  How about this? (4+ / 0-)

    I will support the Democratic nominee.

    Period.

    "To be afraid is to behave as if the truth were not true." -- Bayard Rustin

    by Joelarama on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 11:17:04 AM PST

    •  I'm quite sure I will. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Mia Dolan

      But for some of us, the process matters.

      If things get unduly ugly in the next few months -- if the Clintons go scorched earth like I think they will have to -- it might be enough to drive me away. Maybe.

      Don't Legitimize Fox News.
      "Democrats have the heart to care."

      by jeepdad on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 11:20:15 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  You don't think Obama will go (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        jlb1972

        scorched earth?  He is already signaling he might challenge the legitimacy of the superdelegates.

        We want a nominee who is a fighter.  They both are.

        "To be afraid is to behave as if the truth were not true." -- Bayard Rustin

        by Joelarama on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 11:22:16 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  I'll agree with that. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Mr Bula

    But Clinton has already showed her hand. She will seat those delegates come hell or high water.

    Don't Legitimize Fox News.
    "Democrats have the heart to care."

    by jeepdad on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 11:17:18 AM PST

  •  Thanks. (3+ / 0-)

    As a Florida Democrat who has had his vote tossed aside by the DNC I am simply so grateful that you have offered an olive branch to club my head with.

    "Hillary Hate" is a disease that will not be cured until after the primaries.

    by emsprater on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 11:17:25 AM PST

    •  have your state party follow the rules or (0+ / 0-)

      make a deal with the dnc and the candidates

      •  You know, I am sick to death of .... (0+ / 0-)

        having to rehash the 'have your state party follow the rules' mantra.  Florida's setting up of the primnary date was not as simple as some of the folks on dKos imply, nor was it ever within the power of the state Democratic party to force the GOP lead state legislature to do differently.

        Whatever the 'reasons' whether you buy the slick frame that the state Democrats 'did' this to themselves, or they could have done something to better follow the rules of the DNC, the bottom line is FLorida is a state that Democrats 'write off' at their own peril come November has been 'dissed' by the DNC, and lots of us here feel very deeply about it.

        Having someone try to get either candidate to 'pledge' to continue to deny our votes is, well, not in the best interests of the party as a whole.  Not if you want Florida to become a purple or blue state.  If you like it red, then, hey, whatever floats your boat.

        "Hillary Hate" is a disease that will not be cured until after the primaries.

        by emsprater on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 11:32:40 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  the point is that the state was not contested (0+ / 0-)

          because all candidates agreed to the DNC position... like i said, for the good of the national party, lobby your state party to figure it out with the dnc

  •  That's the biggest difference between the two (2+ / 0-)

    Hillary wants what is best for Hillary, and Obama wants what is best for America.

    My opinion, developed by me.

    "Constitutional Crisis Forthcoming"

    by egarratt on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 11:17:57 AM PST

  •  How are you going to seat delegates from Michigan (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mytribe, Mia Dolan, Kab ibn al Ashraf

    Only Hillary was on the ballot?

    "Constitutional Crisis Forthcoming"

    by egarratt on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 11:19:15 AM PST

  •  Obama/Hillary 08 (0+ / 0-)

    Obama as President and Hillary as VP is the only workable compromise.

    it is still a viable ticket which can defeat McCain

    and it honors the will of the Democratic electorate

  •  My name is Barack Obama (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Tomato Observer, Monkadee, rigso

    I fought like hell to get as many superdelegate endorsements as I could. I spent time and resources on this project.  I was successful in many places.  But since Hillary Clinton was more successful than I was in securing these endorsements, I don't think they should count anymore.  

    Why didn't I say this months ago?  Well I didn't think they would cost me the election.  But now that they are, well, they suck.  Big time.

    Please sign my pledge to support whatever rule changes will help me get elected.

    -Barack.

  •  you DO know that it'll be a tie, right? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    swissffun

    zero to zero. nobody is credentialled until the credentials committee meets. first order of business in denver.

    and good luck shoving that caucus crap down our throats. the people have already spoken, and you disenfranchised us. karen thurman is standing strong. she told the DNC they could shove that caucus crap back last year before the primary, and i wouldn't want to be anywhere near the next person who asks her to support that same lame-ass, anti-democratic stuff again.

    Hillary 2008 - Flying Monkey Squadron 283

    by campskunk on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 11:26:28 AM PST

    •  The people have spoken (0+ / 0-)

      and they decided they didn't want their delegates to count.

      You wouldn't want to count an election where the candidates thought it didn't count and didn't campaign there, right?  The Hillary Clinton I know (or I thought I knew) would never do anything that sleazy.

      •  The people? (0+ / 0-)

        The rules were set forth and enforced by a committee of people with the DNC with regards to the actions of the Fla legislature...

        New Fla voters, like my parents, didn't get a say.

        The convention has an appeals process. Her request/statement was related to that process.

        Mariachi Mama Candidate Bickering Moratorium! Signatory to the Carnacki Petition

        by kredwyn on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 11:35:15 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Yes (0+ / 0-)

          but they were invalid elections.  Obama wasn't even on the ballot in Michigan.  

          •  He chose to remove himself... (0+ / 0-)

            Both Clinton and Dodd chose to stay on it. Obama didn't have to take his name off...it wasn't part of the pledge guidelines.

            And there was an interesting reverse campaign re: "vote uncommitted" being run before the primary.

            Mariachi Mama Candidate Bickering Moratorium! Signatory to the Carnacki Petition

            by kredwyn on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 11:47:39 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  OK (0+ / 0-)

              but these were not contested races.  Who knows if Clinton would have won them if they had been contested.  If the delegates are seated, would Obama get the uncommitted?  Or would he just get nothing in Michigan.  

              •  Hmmm... (0+ / 0-)

                Right now, according to his memo, which the Detroit Free Press commented on, MI doesn't count. So even if those uncommitteds could be convinced to support Obama, they still wouldn't get in cause the "rules are the rules."

                But the interesting thing here is that the convention itself has an appeals process with regards to the banned delegates.

                Mariachi Mama Candidate Bickering Moratorium! Signatory to the Carnacki Petition

                by kredwyn on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 12:10:47 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  I realize that (0+ / 0-)

                  My point was that these were not valid elections.

                  •  And my point is that MI was fair... (0+ / 0-)

                    given the pledge constraints.

                    kos pointed out ages ago that taking your name off the ballot, even when the rules didn't call for it, was tantamount to ceding the race.

                    He was on the Florida ballot...and unintentionally running a national ad on CNN and MSNBC.

                    Both were valid according to the rules of the states, yes?

                    If you want do-overs...how are they going to get paid for? What are they going to look like? And why do you want them?

                    Mariachi Mama Candidate Bickering Moratorium! Signatory to the Carnacki Petition

                    by kredwyn on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 12:18:24 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  OK (0+ / 0-)

                      But those races still weren't fully contested races, and everyone knew that going in.  If Clinton wanted to count those states, she needed to do something about if BEFORE the primaries.  

                      I think paying for the do-overs will be a real problem, and they probably won't happen.  But if Clinton wins the nomination because those Florida and Michigan delegates are seated, she will be seen has having cheated.  It sucks for the people in Florida and Michigan, but the alternative is worse.  Again, I will happily vote for Clinton if she wins under the existing ground rules.  Not so much if she does it this way.  

                      The best solution would be for one of the candidates to win the remaining races decisively so we don't have to decide this.  Unfortunately, that doesn't seem likely.  

                      •  IIRC... (0+ / 0-)

                        She was the very last candidate to sign onto the pledge.

                        And it was only under to pressure of IA, SC, and NH that any of them wound up signing onto a pledge in the first place...it wasn't a DNC thing.

                        Frankly, I think that the DNC reacted quickly and harshly without thinking it through.

                        Mariachi Mama Candidate Bickering Moratorium! Signatory to the Carnacki Petition

                        by kredwyn on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 12:36:15 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Agree (0+ / 0-)

                          I think the whole thing was a disaster.  The Republican plan to strip half the delegates was better than what we did.  Those voters got screwed.

                          That being said, Obama (and other candidates) did not contest those states based on the understanding they wouldn't count, so its not fair to count them.  That's all I'm saying.  

                          •  None of them contested... (0+ / 0-)

                            the states after they signed the August pledge.

                            As it stands, the Republicans have been making political hay out of it for a while:

                            "The Democrats in Washington are out of touch," the mailer reads in part. "Now — thanks to their egoes and political in-fighting — yes, as a Florida Democrat, may lose your vote."

                            Other boldface reminders: "No delegates. No votes." "Because of the Democrat rules, Democratic presidential candidates say they won’t campaign in Florida—they’ll only raise money here."

                            Another perception thing that comes with the do-over concept.

                            Setting up do-overs in the two states could look like "We have to have another vote because X (DNC, Obama, someone else) doesn't like the results from the first go 'round."

                            Mariachi Mama Candidate Bickering Moratorium! Signatory to the Carnacki Petition

                            by kredwyn on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 01:14:24 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  All bad outcomes (0+ / 0-)

                            but using the results of a race not voluntarily uncontested by all of the candidates is the worst.  Frankly, I think a do-over would be a good outcome, but it will never happen because no one will pay for it.  

                          •  The rules committee reacted... (0+ / 0-)

                            without thinking first. It's a royal fuck up...

                            Taxpayers aren't going to want to pay for a re-do when they think they did it right the first time.

                            And a gay marriage ban is going to be on the Nov ballot for Fla.

                            Mariachi Mama Candidate Bickering Moratorium! Signatory to the Carnacki Petition

                            by kredwyn on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 01:35:24 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Gay Marriage (0+ / 0-)

                            I think the gay marriage bans are played out.  Wisconsin passed one in 2006, but their Democratic governor got-elected, the Democrats won the Senate and picked up seats in the house.  

                            All it will do is up the turnout in Miami Beach.  

                          •  Don't be too sure... (0+ / 0-)

                            Miami, aye...but if my aunt's preacher is any indication (she can't hear him and is in it for the social), there's gonna be a lot of discussion about it elsewhere...

                            Mariachi Mama Candidate Bickering Moratorium! Signatory to the Carnacki Petition

                            by kredwyn on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 01:42:18 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  It may pass (0+ / 0-)

                            like it did in Wisconsin, but it may not acheive its real purpose, which is to hurt Democrats.  A lot of Wisconsin Democrats opposed the amendment, and did not suffer politically for it.  Gay-bashing has lost its juice as a political weapon.  

                          •  and Fla's legislature is GOP controlled... (0+ / 0-)

                            Mariachi Mama Candidate Bickering Moratorium! Signatory to the Carnacki Petition

                            by kredwyn on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 01:43:30 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

      •  obama campaigned here. (0+ / 0-)

        whoops!

        not to mention all the ads he ran down here on cnn. and STILL got his ass kicked - 17 points. by a girl.

        Hillary 2008 - Flying Monkey Squadron 283

        by campskunk on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 11:37:03 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Oh...and a qualifier... (0+ / 0-)

        I am not part of Team Hillary.

        Mariachi Mama Candidate Bickering Moratorium! Signatory to the Carnacki Petition

        by kredwyn on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 11:38:24 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  True Democrats (0+ / 0-)

    only support HRC?

    That's stupid.  The left wing of the party doesn't like her (or them) much.  And Barack Obama is growing the party.  Or is one a true Democrat only if one supports HRC?

    "Capital consists of living labor serving dead labor for the maintenance and expansion of the latter." --Karl Marx

    by Kab ibn al Ashraf on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 11:28:07 AM PST

  •  That's no olive branch. That's the kind of "deal" (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    swissffun

    ... the current Resident would call an olive branch.

  •  i think rescheduling FL and MI is (0+ / 0-)

    an interesting option...

    •  Okay... (0+ / 0-)

      if it's a caucus, I nominate you to go down and try to explain it to my 90 year old aunt who has voted Dem for as long as she's been able to vote.

      Did I mention her hearing aids don't work?

      Mariachi Mama Candidate Bickering Moratorium! Signatory to the Carnacki Petition

      by kredwyn on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 11:31:31 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Okay (0+ / 0-)

        I nominate you to explain to the candidate who decided not to spend millions of dollars campaigning in Florida and Michigan because he followed the rules, that he will be punished for it.

        •  They both followed the rules... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          eagle5

          Your candidate spent a chunk of time in Florida attending fundraisers...

          Here he is in September...Tampa. (he accidentally had an impromptu presser...promised it wouldn't happen again)
          Here he is in November...Sarasota.
          Here is April 2007...Tampa...large crowd for that private fund raiser.

          Here is March 2007...Boca.

          Mariachi Mama Candidate Bickering Moratorium! Signatory to the Carnacki Petition

          by kredwyn on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 11:58:21 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  What is your point? (0+ / 0-)

            Fundraisers were not off limits.  

            •  That was my point... (0+ / 0-)

              You seem to have her floating around doing campaigning stuff, which she wasn't.

              She was also attending fundraisers.

              Mariachi Mama Candidate Bickering Moratorium! Signatory to the Carnacki Petition

              by kredwyn on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 12:12:24 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  ok (0+ / 0-)

                I am not saying she broke the rules.  I am saying that pushing to have the delegates count is breaking the rules.  

                •  No... (0+ / 0-)

                  there is an appeals process at the convention. And if you read her statement rather than what people are saying she said, you'll see that she asked that her delegates consider it...and that she'd understand if they chose to keep the Fla/MI delegates out.

                  Sure...she wants them to count. What candidate wouldn't want that?

                  Hell even the host and organizer for Obama's Tampa fundraiser pointed out that back in September the candidate suggested that he'd "do right by Florida voters."

                  Mariachi Mama Candidate Bickering Moratorium! Signatory to the Carnacki Petition

                  by kredwyn on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 12:23:40 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Again (0+ / 0-)

                    Maybe the appeal works, and they will end up counting. The problem is that the perception will be that she cheated if she wins that way, and that will be very damaging to the party and her chances in the fall.

                    I wouldn't want them to count if they weren't true victories.  Sometimes victory comes at too great a cost.  Sometimes you just lose, and you have to accept that.  

                    •  As it stands right now... (0+ / 0-)

                      the back room deal is the one that's going to happen unless the next couple weeks break one way or another. I suspect that they will continue to be in a tie.

                      As I see it, perception and rumors and suggestions can go both ways. And none of them are great at this point.

                      And frankly, memos with hints sure don't help mitigate the that eventual perception game you're concerned about.

                      Mariachi Mama Candidate Bickering Moratorium! Signatory to the Carnacki Petition

                      by kredwyn on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 01:23:57 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

        •  The pledge was signed in August... (0+ / 0-)

          So the March/April ones were par for the campaign process.

          That being said, there were few rules with regards to what could and could not happen. The rules committee left the door wide open with regards to fundraising at private gatherings.

          So far as I can tell, they adhered to the rules as best as they could. He was on the ballot in Florida. And given the fact that he sent out a memo before the primary letting Fla voters know that they didn't count...he did pretty well.

          Mariachi Mama Candidate Bickering Moratorium! Signatory to the Carnacki Petition

          by kredwyn on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 12:04:10 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  The convention itself has some sort (0+ / 0-)

    of appeals process.

    Mariachi Mama Candidate Bickering Moratorium! Signatory to the Carnacki Petition

    by kredwyn on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 11:30:21 AM PST

  •  so if she wins based on super-delegates? (0+ / 0-)

    or if Obama wins because supers tip the balance? those are playing by the rules.

  •  votes from Michigan & Florida will be counted (0+ / 0-)

    and if you want disregard millions of voters - than you are not a Democrat already. I ask Hillary Team don't even bother with such idiotic and antidemocratic
    requests as this stupid diary.

    •  Fair enough (0+ / 0-)

      The message of the diary is play fair, and we'll support you if you win.  If you don't play fair, then don't complain about not getting the Obama support.  Sounds like you are ok with the latter.

      If Hillary was concerned about disenfranchising these voters, she would have spoken out before the elections.  To go along with the DNC plan, and to then change her position after she has "won" those states, is beyond sleazy.  

  •  that is no olive branch (0+ / 0-)

    that is a poisoned apple.

    either you want special party rules or not. But if you want have FL and Michigan discounted, you'll have to accept super delegates as well.

    What you did was to carefully stack the deck against Hillary and then call this an olive branch.

    It is none. It is an insult.

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