If you haven't had a chance to see this morning's Meet The Press with Tim Russert it is must see TV for anyone who cares about the Presidential nomination process for the Democrats this year. The guests were Senator Dick Durbin (for Barack Obama) and Senator Chuck Schumer (for Hillary Clinton).
The emerging themes of the discussion were winning the nomination based on merit and principle vs. a desired outcome and making that happen at all costs. The discussion included super-delegates and the seating of delegates from Michigan and Florida.
Here is the video link where you can watch for yourself then comment below. (includes the roundtable discussion afterwards: 'Capital Gang', with Margaret Carlson, Al Hunt, Bob Novak, Kate O'Beirne and Mark Shields.)
I have also included parts of the transcript below with a poll.
UPDATE: added video link from Face The Nation (Clinton: Howard Wolfson and Obama: David Axelrod)
Some highlights:
MR. RUSSERT:
Senator Durbin mentioned elected delegates. Let's look at those. Right now it's 1116 for Obama, 985 for Clinton; a lead of 131. The superdelegates, it's now Obama 183, Clinton 257. These are elected officials and party officials. Last Sunday it was 174; Obama's gained nine in a week. Clinton was at 262, she's lost five. Some erosion from people who've switched sides.
Let's look at contests won and popular vote. Obama's won 21 states plus the District of Columbia and Virgin Islands, that's 23; Clinton 11. The popular vote, Obama 9.3 million, Clinton is 8.6 million. That's a cumulative figure.
Senator Schumer, if Barack Obama was ahead at the end of this primary season in elected delegates, states won and popular vote, should he be the nominee?
SEN. SCHUMER:
Well, you know, again, to predict what will happen after June 7, when there are going to be so many twists and turns, you need to know lots of details. Did he win the other states 60-40 or did he win them 50.1 to 49.9? Is the popular vote overwhelming or is it not?
Let me say this, Tim. This is a closely fought contest. It is going to twist and turn a whole bunch of times. And I think making a set rule now in February, when we have till June 7, when there are 19 states, many important ones--Texas, Ohio, Pennsylvania--that haven't voted, when we know the way these campaigns work, there are twists and turns, doesn't make sense. Each candidate's fighting hard. It's a darn close election. I think Democrats believe that this is a very good election because we think there are two good candidates as opposed to, "Oh, we have to settle for somebody," and making a set rule now of any type--each candidate is going to proffer the rule that is in their best interests right now. But for the moment, let's let the primaries move forward and let's see where we are at the end of the day on June 7.
MR. RUSSERT:
Senator Durbin, if a candidate--either Clinton or Obama--happened to be ahead in elected delegates, states won, popular vote and the other candidate was given the nomination because of superdelegates, what would happen at the convention?
SEN. DURBIN:
That'd be a serious problem. You know, the voters will have the last word in November. The elected delegates should have the last word in Denver. Those are the delegates who have stood before the voters. I'm one of those superdelegates, as is Chuck. There are almost 800 of us. We've been involved in this party and given a lot of our lives to it. But let's be very honest about this. The final word has to be decided by elected delegates. And I listened carefully to what Chuck had to say, and I can, I can perceive what the Clinton strategy is now: to use these superdelegates to try to overcome the vote of elected delegates. And that would be unfortunate. It may divide our party. And we ought to have the wisdom and judgment as superdelegates to want this party to be united coming out of Denver.
The last point I want to make is this: It isn't just a matter of winning as we go forward, it's the margin of victory that counts when you deal with proportional delegates. For example, New Jersey was a hard-fought state, but the end of the day, Senator Clinton prevailed. Kansas was a hard-fought state. At the end of the day, Barack Obama prevailed. Barack Obama netted more delegates out of Kansas than Hillary Clinton netted out of New Jersey, so the margin of victory's important. And in 14 states, Barack Obama's margin of victory has been over 20 points. It takes those margins to really move delegates.
MR. RUSSERT:
Besides superdelegates, another important issue is Florida and Michigan, and this is what happened. Back in August of '07, Howard Dean wrote this letter to all the candidates:
"As leader of the Democratic Party, I strongly urge you to adhere to the 2008 delegate selection rules. The 2008 Delegate Selection Rules. ... The 2008 Delegate Selection Rules adopted by the full DNC at its August 2006 meeting clearly provide that only four states - Iowa, Nevada, New Hampshire," "South Carolina - may hold their respective contests prior to February 5, '08. The [Rules and Bylaws Committee's] finding of noncompliance included a 100 percent loss of pledged and unpledged delegates."
If you tried to move your primary up, you've lost all your delegates. Florida and Michigan did it, they lost all their delegates. The Clinton campaign put out this statement: "We believe Iowa, New Hampshire, Nevada and South Carolina play a unique and special role in the" nomination "process." "We believe the DNC's rules and its calendar provide the necessary structure to respect and honor that role. Thus, we will be signing the pledge to adhere to the DNC approved nominating calendar."
That was the Clinton campaign in September. Here's the Clinton campaign in February. "With regard to Michigan and Florida, our position is clear. We're going to ask our delegates to vote to seat the delegations from Florida and Michigan. We do not think that" "many Americans should have" had "their votes and their voices and their preferences denied.
"We had an enormous turnout, particular in Florida, the largest turnout in the history of the Democratic primary in Florida. And we believe that it is critically important that those delegates have an opportunity to express their preferences at the convention.
"I don't believe that anyone seriously thinks we're going to have a national convention in which the delegations of Florida and Michigan are not going to have a say. So that is our position."
Senator Durbin, your reaction.
SEN. DURBIN:
Well, Michigan and Florida are critical for victory in November. There's no doubt about it. And Barack has said at the end of the day there's going to be an aggressive campaign to win the votes for the presidency for the Democratic candidate in those two states. But just like the superdelegate issue, we have to look carefully at what's happening here. The superdelegates should not be in a position to trump the elected delegates in Denver, and I hope that the Clinton campaign is not arguing that we should abandon an agreement that was reached by all of the presidential candidates to abide by the Democratic National Committee rules. Neither Chuck nor I nor any elected official would want our fate determined in an election where a name isn't on the ballot and where we weren't allowed to campaign. That's Michigan. And, of course, in Florida, none of the candidates campaigned. So to say that the outcome of those elections, which Senator Clinton agreed would not be counted, will somehow be counted in Denver is to change the rules after the election. That isn't fair. We've got to find a fair way to seat delegates from Michigan and Florida that really keeps to the basic agreement that Senator Clinton, Senator Obama and all the Democratic candidates entered into.
MR. RUSSERT:
Senator Schumer, Senator Clinton said in October, "You know it's clear this election they're having in Michigan is not going to count for anything." Is that your position?
SEN. SCHUMER:
Well, no. Here's the bottom line once again, Tim. Each candidate, of course, takes the position that benefits them at the moment. Now on this one, popular vote, particularly in Florida where no one violated the rules, but Florida went ahead on its own and had an election and Hillary won. Now, Senator Obama naturally says don't seat Florida. Senator Clinton says...
The full transcript of the interview here.
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My opinion based on comments by Senator Schumer in this interview is that they are planning for a victory based on the final tally of votes including the super-delegates, damn who won the majority of pledged delegates, the number of states won and the popular vote.
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UPDATE:
Howard Wolfson of the Clinton campaign and David Axelrod of the Obama campaign appeared on Face The Nation this morning to discuss key issues in the campaign, video here.