I am going to apologise in advance for the short diary, but I've seen something disturbing being repeated with increasing frequency across these and other boards.  People are repeating the following statement:

In order to count as part of the delegate allotment in Texas, you can just sign in and leave.

This is false.  You must be PRESENT at your precinct convention in order to count.

update please scroll down for an important update

A few quick points.

Yes, you can legally "sign in and leave".  But if you do that you cannot nominate anyone as a delegate.  You cannot vote in your candidate's caucus (there is no proxy voting at precinct conventions).  Most importantly, you will not be counted in the EZ math formula for allocating delegates at your precinct convention and candidate caucus.  This is the part that determines viability and how many delegates each candidate receives.

Here are the relevant parts of the EZ math formula:

Step One: determine which groups are eligible to caucus.

__ Number of people attending the precinct convention DIVIDED BY
__ Number of delegates to the County/Senate District convention to which the precinct is entitled EQUALS
__ Number needed to form a caucus, aka "the threshold"

You cannot be counted here unless you are present.  See line one: "number of people attending..."

Step Two: Determine How Many Delegates Each Caucus Gets

__ Number of people in a caucus DIVIDED BY
__ Number of people at your precinct convention EQUALS
__ Percent of Convention MULTIPLIED BY
__ Number of delegates to which your precinct is entitled EQUALS
__ Unrounded number of delegates to which the caucus is entitled
Next, round the number DOWN to determine how many delegates are alloted.

Look at line one.  You only count towards "number of people in a caucus" if you are present.   These are the rules.

I went to a refresher training last weekend.  Multiple times the question was asked "can you sign in and leave".  The answer - according to the rules - is yes, but it was repeatedly emphasised that if you do that, you give up your right to vote in the precinct caucus and you are not counted in the math formula.

The bottom line is this: sign in and stay.  If it's hot, tough shit.  If it's crowded, tough shit. If it's chaos, tough shit. This is democracy and this is how it works.  People in other states have waited for hours to caucus. They sacrificed their time in order to participate.  We have a unique opportunity in Texas.  For the first time in a long time, we are going to help determine the nominee.  The least we can do is stick around and get the job done.

P.S. I went into the math formula in greater detail in yesterday's diary.

update:  Great.  Now the TDP has sent out an alert claiming that you CAN be counted in the EZ math formula if you leave.  This is not what we were told in Tarrant County last weekend.  We were specifically told that you cannot sign in and leave and still be counted.  The question was asked numerous times and we got the same answer each time: you must stay to be counted.

Frankly, I don't know what to believe at this point.  I've got my county party telling me one thing, the TDP saying another, and various commenters claiming one way or the other.  Fuck this is a mess.  I apologise for any confusion this has caused.  I'd delete this diary but the comments are full of info, so I'm leaving it and doing a huge mea culpa because frankly, now I have no fucking idea how this is going to work.  I give up.  I'd still advise people to stay.

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#### Comment Preferences

please don't take any chances.  stay so that you are counted!

now i'm off.  i am heading over to eastside to canvass voters today.  you guys please hit the phone banks.  we need your help this weekend.  thanks!

John Cornyn is an asshole with shoes. Support Rick Noriega!

• ##### maybe you can email kath25(18+ / 0-)

and make sure she's on the same page?

NetrootNews coming soon!

[ Parent ]

• ##### she'll see my comment(15+ / 0-)

i really have to get out of here now.  we have so much work to do today.  i'm off, gotta hop in the shower and get outta here.

John Cornyn is an asshole with shoes. Support Rick Noriega!

[ Parent ]

• ##### It is(2+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
lizah, Mind That

Reposting my comment from the other diary, from THE RULES  OF THE TEXAS DEMOCRATIC PARTY: (pdf - p. 23)

(a)  The Convention Chair shall announce the number of eligible voting members on the roll, the number of Delegates and Alternates the Convention is entitled to elect, and the number and percent of each presidential preference or uncommitted status reflected on the roll.

(b)  On the basis of such determination, those preferring each presidential candidate and those who are uncommitted shall caucus separately to elect the same proportion of County or Senatorial District Convention Delegates and Alternates as their group represents at the Precinct Convention.

I am not going to sit here and be an idle spectator to the diminution, the subversion, the destruction, of the Constitution. - Barbara Jordan

[ Parent ]

• ##### Link to TDP proving this diary is wrong(3+ / 0-)
Recommended by:

This lettter was sent to precinct chairs last night.

• ##### text of relevant paragraph(5+ / 0-)

This is from assa9's linked .pdf above, I just wanted to put the relevant text out for clarity.

1. Precinct Convention Sign-In – Tex. Elec. Code § 174.022 (c), Texas

Democratic Party Rules Article IV, Section B (6)(b)

Participants may NOT begin signing in until the precinct convention has been called to order.
The call to order may not occur until 7:15 pm or until the last voter has voted (whichever is
later).  If, after the convention has been called to order and participants have signed in, any
participant who wishes to leave may do so, and their sign in WILL count toward the delegate
allocation for each candidate.  Sign-In ends when the last person present waiting to sign in has
done so.

"Our time has come, our movement is real, and change is coming to America."

[ Parent ]

• ##### Thanks I should've included that(0+ / 0-)

and are counted. They may not change their vote if they choose to leave after signing in.  For example:

This would be more important for someong signing in as undelclared or for one of the other candidates still on the ballot, like Edwards.  If the undeclared or Edwards people do not form a minimum for a caucus of their own, they may choose to caucus with one of the other groups that have met the minimum.  If they have already left, they may not do that...and their sign in becomes in effect, irrelevant.

But you are right, a person may not vote by proxy nor may they vote if they arrive and sign in AFTER the convention is called to order.

Tuesday is going to be one LONG night in TX for people signing in, verifying and doing the so-called E-Z Math to allocate delegates.

Do the Texas Two Step for Obama Guide to the TX Delegate Primary System by Anna

[ Parent ]

Recommended by:
elmo

try to avoid giving misinformation.

Texas law specifically says that participants may not begin signing in until the convention has been called to order.

Here's the DNC memo with the text of the law (pdf):

• ##### yup(0+ / 0-)

I think the confusion comes with the signing in part.

It is apparently pretty common practice for precinct chairs to let people begin to sign in as they arrive, just to speed things up. If you do this, but leave before the caucus has been called to order by the precinct chair, you've broken the rules. We don't want anyone to have a basis for contesting the results of the caucuses.

• ##### That was not what was originally on their website(0+ / 0-)

I printed it off the other day just to be sure.

But either that was an error or they have just clarified what procedures they want everyone to go by.  I understand that updates are coming fast and furious to the elected party officials on the ground.

I had originally been told that once the convention was called to order, no more sign ins would could towards delegates!!!!

It will be a confusing night for many folks I think.  We are having at least one more training tomorrow night in our area, so I hope that by then, we'll all be on the same page!!!

I do have links to the latest updates!  Thank goodness.  I also have a packet to review from this morning's training.  phew!

Do the Texas Two Step for Obama Guide to the TX Delegate Primary System by Anna

[ Parent ]

• ##### note(0+ / 0-)

this is not the relevant rule, but an interpretion by someone in the Texas Democratic Party, of the rule. Unsigned memo.

• ##### oops(0+ / 0-)

that "unsigned" memo IS signed by Jim Boynton.

• ##### wrong(0+ / 0-)

there is nothing in that alert - which i received as a precinct chair - that says you can just sign in, leave, and still participate.

the ONLY exception to this is that people who sign in and leave CAN be nominated and elected as delegates.  they still do not get to vote in the precinct caucus.  they still do not get to be counted in the EZ math formula.

John Cornyn is an asshole with shoes. Support Rick Noriega!

[ Parent ]

• ##### fuck, nevermind(2+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
lurker123, DemInLux

now i'm even more confused than i was this morning.  thank you for clarifying.  this is going to be a giant fucking clusterfuck.

we were specifically told in tarrant county that if you leave, you won't count.  now the TDP is saying the opposite and frankly i don't know what to believe.

thank you for linking that.  i didn't get it until after this was posted.  mea culpa.

John Cornyn is an asshole with shoes. Support Rick Noriega!

[ Parent ]

• ##### Great stuff, Anna. One more thing to note:(27+ / 0-)

Please make sure people know that they should show up for the caucus even if they early voted without a voter-registration card.

Just this morning, somebody told me yet again that they had heard that they couldn't participate in the caucus because they didn't have their registration card with them on the day they early voted to get the "Democratic" stamp.

Complete bullshit. Yes, it's easier and better if you got that stamp, and yes, it will take those of us who will be running a caucus more time to check you in, but YOU NEED TO SHOW UP. Just bring a state-issued photo ID and we can work with that.

DO NOT make the mistake of not showing up for the caucus because you don't have a physical peace of paper. The polling place WILL have a record of your early vote (or, perhaps I should say, SHOULD have a record.)

You need to be at that caucus!!!!

"Oh, TV. Is there anything you can't do?" -- Homer Simpson

[ Parent ]

• ##### piece of paper. sheesh/ n/t(4+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
frisco, javelina, Sagittarius, Empower Ink

"Oh, TV. Is there anything you can't do?" -- Homer Simpson

[ Parent ]

• ##### All we are saying is give "piece" a chance. (n/t)(2+ / 0-)

"In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." --Thomas Jefferson

[ Parent ]

• ##### I early voted and got a receipt(3+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
javelina, Ignacio Magaloni, mayan

with DEM printed on it.  I think that will suffice at the caucus.

• ##### There are also some reports(2+ / 0-)
Recommended by:

that Hillary is telling her people to be at the caucus' at 6:45 pm and Obama is telling his to caucus at 7:00 pm. Smells similar to what occurred in NV with some door closing at 6:59.

• ##### The TDP just announced that no convention (6+ / 0-)

may begin until all voters have voted in that precinct. I just heard that no early sign ins are to be allowed either - the local party said there have been some last minute emails from the party to precinct chairs and executive committee folks.

This is going to be a rough night I think.

I just got in from a precinct convention run-through and man, I can see where it will be rough for precincts with large turnout.

Wish us luck!

Do the Texas Two Step for Obama Guide to the TX Delegate Primary System by Anna

[ Parent ]

• ##### There is no "lockout" in Texas.(1+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
teammjs

From my understanding (Anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here.)

This is not a "Doors Close at 7:15 pm" state. The March 4th Primary Polls officially close at 7:00 pm and anyone still in line at that time will be allowed to vote in the Primary and caucus in the convention, if they choose to do so. The Precinct Convention (caucus) doors officially open at 7:00 pm. The call to order is at the latter of: 7:15 pm or after the last March 4th voter in line who wishes to caucus has voted and been admitted. People can still join and participate after the call to order, but cannot change earlier results.

I would still suggest showing up early for the caucus, especially given the crowd sizes expected. Also, you may want to bring a bottle of water and a jacket/umbrella. Lines will probably be long and some precincts may choose to caucus outdoors in order to better accommodate the larger turnout. (Texas weather permitting, of course.)

And please do stick around for the full convention! This is a chance to actively participate in the choice for our Presidential Nominee. Texas residents don't get the opportunity to have a real impact very often. Enjoy it!!

• ##### CHEERS TO TOUGH SHIT! nt.(6+ / 0-)

screw harry reid

[ Parent ]

• ##### We had the same rules in Minnesota(5+ / 0-)

And I'm sharing the following info so no one will be discouraged from getting out to caucus.

We had an amazing and overwhelming turnout! It was so exciting to meet and rub shoulders with thousands of like-minded people! (Most of us didn't know so many Democrats even existed in our area)!

Our site was at one of the local colleges, and it was packed to the hilt - lots of young and first-time voters

They had different rooms designated for each of the many wards in our precinct.

At one ward, that had previously only had 3 voters, over 200 turned out!

Each person was told that they could cast their Presidential Preference ballot and leave (due to the huge crowd and lack of space) - but also that they could stay to be a part of caucusing for the U.S. Senate candidates, to become a delegate to the county convention, etc. if they wanted to.

Every ward ran out of both sign-in sheets and ballots, so extra copies had to be made. While waiting for the copies, voters were allowed to use blank sheets of paper to sign in on, and small scraps of paper were used for ballots. We had a severe shortage of pens, which only delayed things further.

So...Be sure to bring the 3 P's - PAPER, PENS & PATIENCE!

As a result of the long waits and crowded conditions, out of 77 votes cast in our ward only 19 voters stayed to be part of the caucus process. (The previous vote turnout had been around 10 in the ward we belonged to).

People leaving early did not affect the results of the Presidential Preference vote in any way.

Everyone who cast a ballot had their vote counted.

Barack Obama won over 70% of the vote at our precinct, and 68% overall in Minnesota.

Because of our ward/precinct size, we could normally have up to 24 delegates selected for the county convention. Since only 19 stayed, each one automatically became a delegate. But also, because we did not have at least 24 delegates, we were not allowed to do any further official business, except for counting the Presidential Preference ballots. Once votes were cast, we reported the results to those in the room, sealed the envelope, and sent the results in.

The 19 of us who automatically became delegates (because we stayed until the Presidential Preference voting was completed) will be able to caucus for our U.S. Senate candidates, etc. at the county convention.

I encourage everyone who can, to stay for the entire process! (You can help shape your local party platform, etc.)

But realize this:

If your main reason for getting out to caucus is to cast a vote for your Presidential Preference, you don't have to stay for the rest of the caucus. Your vote will count!

Visit www.soapbox4truth.org

[ Parent ]

• ##### Read the DNC memo sent to Precinct Chairs(3+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
• ##### Kos - We need a FP advisory on this!(1+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
renaissance grrrl

The comments on this thread are literally all over the map and could cause more confusion, among them:

• you can't sign-in and leave or else your delegate choice won't count;
• you can sign-in and leave, and your delegate choice still will count;
• you can't sign-in before 7:15p or the last voter has voted;
• you can sign-in earlier than 7:15p;
• etc.

Ugghh - it needs an official to step up with an advisory for voters - and I think bwintx  lizah and assa9 have it right.

With something this important for both candidates, it deserves some FP space to eliminate the confusion.

"In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." --Thomas Jefferson

[ Parent ]

• ##### Rec'd! (8+ / 0-)

"We're all working for the Pharaoh" - Richard Thompson

• ##### Amen. Rec'd to get the word out and/or clarified.(4+ / 0-)

Seems to be some confusion by people on the ground---hope this helps to get it straightened out.

• ##### Maybe you want bold "alert...(5+ / 0-)

or put it up front in your title.  I think this is important given the earlier mistaken comments.

"We're all working for the Pharaoh" - Richard Thompson

• ##### Thank you, highly recommend(8+ / 0-)

The last thing we need is misinformation on such an important topic.

I have not been to a precinct convention in years and had forgotten the particulars.

• ##### I have no idea what to expect(11+ / 0-)

from our caucus/convention.  The tiny little bldg. where our precinct votes MIGHT hold 50 people - without the voting machines and election worker tables.  On election day, roughly 20 voters are inside at once - three voters and about 17 in line.

Also, I'm pretty sure the single bathroom there has been out of service for awhile. Now THAT'S something to plan for!

The truth always matters.

• ##### I'm running one, and I have no idea...(18+ / 0-)

...what to expect. Ours is tiny and NOT ADA compliant, so I'm going to have to scoot up the stairs on my butt to get up there and run the caucus. But, scoot up the stairs I will!!!!

"Oh, TV. Is there anything you can't do?" -- Homer Simpson

[ Parent ]

• ##### Oh, gosh - you are right(10+ / 0-)

If many of the caucus goers are using walkers or wheelchairs, it may only fit around 30 people.  Maybe they can shove the voting machines into one corner to maximize space.

Our little bldg. has 4 steep concrete steps.  They use a plywood ramp for elections - probably not up to code, but it's there.

The truth always matters.

[ Parent ]

• ##### Me either(9+ / 0-)

I am in Dallas county but in a close-in suburb (Richardson) in a precinct that is partly low-income latino and partly brand-new mixed community large apartment complexes.  Our polling place houses TWO different precincts---and my good friend and fellow Richardson dweller lives in a precinct "next door" that is also partly low-income latino and partly middle class white single family.  Her polling place houses THREE different precincts.  Thankfully, both of our polling places are in elementary schools, so I hope that will allow enough space for the many separate caucuses.

Good greif, this could be messy.  But be there I will, in comfy shoes and with a camera!

• ##### Excellent service announcement, anna. n/t(7+ / 0-)

My faith in the Constitution is whole, it is complete, it is total. Barbara Jordan 1974

• ##### Too bad KOS doesn't have...(6+ / 0-)

a public service area for important messages like this...Like stickies at other fora.

"We're all working for the Pharaoh" - Richard Thompson

[ Parent ]

• ##### I did hear that you could sign up & leave (5+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
Ericwmr, Phil S 33, aj4runner, SherriG, eltee

if you were going to caucus for Senator Clinton though.

:)

(don't hurt me)

• ##### naw(4+ / 0-)
Recommended by:

Fair and square is how we win things for Obama in Texas.

• ##### My caucus is in a church I do not know(5+ / 0-)

Making a dry run to see how long it takes me to get there from work.  Then will add extra minutes for parking, etc.

I heard conflicting messages about you can come at any time after 7:00.  The people at the voting station said to be there at 7:00 and don't risk it.

I want all of my Texas-sized votes for Obama to count!

• ##### I am in unusual situation in Texas(5+ / 0-)

I can actually walk to my caucus which is at the local school.

• ##### Ours is in a fairly small open room...(0+ / 0-)

There's no way in hell the parking lot will be able to support the amount of people.

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man." - G.B. Shaw

[ Parent ]

• ##### What I really wish(2+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
mvr, middleagedhousewife

is that someone would post the relevant section of the Texas Democratic Party rules on caucuses, so we could sort out what's right, and what isn't...

Right now, I see two very reputable people saying two very different things, and I think everyone should get on the same page.

I proudly stand with my family in support of Barack Obama for President.

• ##### Here's what TX Dem Party says...(16+ / 0-)

From this PDF issued by the TDP:

Precinct Convention Sign-In – Tex. Elec. Code § 174.022 (c), Texas
Democratic Party Rules Article IV, Section B (6)(b)
Participants may NOT begin signing in until the precinct convention has been called to order.
The call to order may not occur until 7:15 pm or until the last voter has voted (whichever is later). If, after the convention has been called to order and participants have signed in, any participant who wishes to leave may do so, and their sign in WILL count toward the delegate allocation for each candidate. Sign-In ends when the last person present waiting to sign in has done so.

(That part about "last voter has voted" part means, e.g., if there are still 100 people in line at 7 PM, the call to order won't occur until after voter #100 has voted.)

Electing conservatives is like hiring a carpenter who thinks hammers are evil.

• ##### IM SO CONFUSED...(3+ / 0-)
Recommended by:

But I suppose I'll take the TDP's word.

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man." - G.B. Shaw

[ Parent ]

• ##### EVERYONE PLEASE LOOK AT THIS POST ^ n/t(1+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
javelina

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man." - G.B. Shaw

[ Parent ]

Recommended by:
Tomtech, keenekarl, Always Learning

sign in and stay, and your sign in counts toward the delegate allocation for your candidate, and you get to select the actual people who will be the delegates for the candidate at the Senate District convention.

-- I've got your Stimulus Package right here buddy.

[ Parent ]

• ##### That's the simple fact!(0+ / 0-)

Even though there are more then two candidates on the ballot, only two really count at this time so there won't be much of a a realignment.

Delegate allocation is what matters to most people since only those who sign in for a particular candidate and stay for the delegate selection will be allowed to vote for their candidates actual delegate.

You can sign in and leave and feel confident that your vote counted toward allocating delegates and that the delegates chosen will represent you.

Bush has been playing games with troops for years, he just graduated to using real troops.

[ Parent ]

• ##### Here's the confusion, explained(6+ / 0-)

The caucus is supposed to convene at 7:15, sharp, unless there a people still in line to vote, whichever is later.

Now, if you've got dozens or even hundreds of people wanting to sign in at caucus, why not let them begin the signing in process as soon as they get there? That's what happens as a practical matter. But, officially, even if you sign in before the caucus is called to order (7:15, or when that last voter in line gets to vote), you haven't officially "signed in." See?

Don't sign in before the convention is called to order and leave. That could only call the process into question.

I'd go one further, and say don't leave even after the convention is called to order. Stay, and vote for Obama's precinct delegates. Stay and volunteer to be one of those delegates, because we have to carry this thing all the way through to the county convention and the state convention if Obama is going to get every damn single one of the Texas  delegates that he has earned.

One further clarification: if there happen to be not enough people present at your precinct to round out the slate of delegates for Obama, people who are NOT present CAN be nominated. I just looked that up.

See TDP Memo

• ##### This was just announced overnight wasn't it?(1+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
elmo

It will really make for a long night in busy precincts!

Do the Texas Two Step for Obama Guide to the TX Delegate Primary System by Anna

[ Parent ]

• ##### the waiting and the long lines(1+ / 0-)
Recommended by:

are now going to be to sign in, because this process won't be allowed to start until after 7:15, or the last voter.

• ##### At the Colorado Caucuses(6+ / 0-)

We followed the lead of the Obama people. They are highly organized and know the rules. And they set up early at every site with their own information table. Clinton didn't have that kind of org.

We had 3 precincts in one small auditorium made for about 100 people. There were probably 250 people in the room. They moved one precinct into the hallway. The other two precincts had to yell over each other as they went through the whole caucus process. There was a constant back and forth asking the other side to be quieter. It was rough.

But we got through it and stayed long enough to see if delegates were covered. All was well.

Good luck in Texas people!

• ##### Texas Democratic Party says otherwise!(10+ / 0-)

I received an official memo from the party last night (I am a precinct chair).  This diary is incorrect and should probably be removed.

"If after the convention has been called to order and participants have signed in, any participant who wishes to leave may do so, and their sign in WILL count toward the delgate allocation for each candidate."

I agree that people should stay but you don't have to.  Your vote WILL be counted and used in the math to allocate delegates. If anyone has any question PLEASE go to the TDP Website or call the party headquarters.

• ##### I sure hope that's true(2+ / 0-)
Recommended by:

I work evenings.  I should be able to drop by during my dinner break and sign in, but I won't be able to stick around.

• ##### I will forward the e-mail with links(2+ / 0-)
Recommended by:

if you like.

• ##### You should write a FP(3+ / 0-)
Recommended by:

to get them to help get this situation cleared up

or even 2 or 3  LOL

• ##### Yeah, but that's no fun(3+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
bwintx, SherriG, keenekarl

I want the experience! Nothing like taking part in the democratic process. And you get to fraternize with people in your community you might not otherwise ever meet. It's fun!

"Question authority and the authorities will question you." Now more than ever!
I remember when all of America was a free speech zone.

[ Parent ]

• ##### yup(2+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
Tomtech, keenekarl

If you sign in and stay, your sign-in still counts toward the number of delegates your candidate receives, and you get to help select the actual people who will be the delegates for your candidate at the Senate District Convention.

-- I've got your Stimulus Package right here buddy.

[ Parent ]

• ##### I'm going to leave(3+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
javelina, elmo, SherriG

my recommend because it looks like precinct chairs are being told different interpretations of the rules.  I'd rather have people err on the side staying until this confusion is straightened out.

that out of many, we are one; that while we breathe, we hope. - Barack Obama

[ Parent ]

• ##### Yes, but some people can't stay(2+ / 0-)
Recommended by:

This diarist is telling them not to bother and that is wrong!

• ##### Don't sign in before 7:15, or if people are still(2+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
Ignacio Magaloni, lurker123

voting, even if they let you sign the sheet, and think everything is hunky dory. Some precinct chairs have always let people sign in as they arrive (before the convention is convened, to save time), and that's just not going to work this time. This time, there may be lawyers prowling around looking for something to pounce on.

• ##### The TDP IS the official rules(1+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
keenekarl

I highly doubt the TDP is sending the precinct chairs wrong information.  This diarist is trying to discourage people from participating.  I think that is the last thing we want to do.

• ##### sorry(2+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
lirtydies, Over the Edge

but I think this diary is encouraging folks to participate more, rather than discouraging them from participating.

• ##### By spreading incorrect information?(3+ / 0-)
Recommended by:

The point is many people work nights and can't stay for 3 hours.  They have every right to participate.  The diary is discouraging those people from going.  I don't think we should be spreading bad information no matter what the intention of the writer

• ##### ok, that's fair(0+ / 0-)

but let's also assume there are people who can and are willing to stay for three hours. Those people are being told they they don't need to do that, which isn't entirely accurate, either. I'd rather be safe than sorry.

If you can't stay after the convention is officially convened, that's fine, of course. But please don't anybody leave until the precinct chair makes that announcement.

• ##### And if it is too crowded that breeds chaos(0+ / 0-)

Obviously people that stay are committed and will have an incredible experience, but many others won't, can't, shouldn't and if there are concerns about huge turnout causing chaos it could be best to get people in and out if that is what they want and if they are sure their votes count.

"Our time has come, our movement is real, and change is coming to America."

[ Parent ]

• ##### Trying to discourage?(2+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
assa9, SherriG

I don't think this diarist is trying to discourage voters, but is concerned that every vote will count.

Yet, by passing along incorrect and complicated information, this diary is likely to confuse and discourage those people who just want to cast a vote and leave as soon as they can.

If you CAN stay for the entire caucus, you should, because it is likely to be a great experience - and would almost certainly be a big contribution to the overall process!

This is how/why caucuses are different than primaries:

Primaries are pretty much quick and simple, requiring less involvement and dedication.

Caucuses usually involve more dedicated voters - those people who want to be more deeply involved in the issues and policies that they want their local Democratic party to stand for.

People who caucus and volunteer and/or campaign to be chosen as a delegate end up having more influence and say in their local Democratic party and the issues that matter to them.

Visit www.soapbox4truth.org

[ Parent ]

• ##### Yep, that's how I got the link(0+ / 0-)

I posted above; same e-mail.

Electing conservatives is like hiring a carpenter who thinks hammers are evil.

[ Parent ]

• ##### true, if you follow the part about not letting(0+ / 0-)

anyone sign the sign in sheet until after the caucus has convened. You still will have to hang around waiting for this moment, and waiting in line to sign in all at once.

• ##### What Happens (4+ / 0-)

If the crowd exceeds fire code limits for the space?

• ##### Parking lot caucuses?(3+ / 0-)

Good question.  Other diarists have addressed concerns about space adequate for turnout in some urban areas.  The whole process has largely been a formality in Texas for so long that there may be a problem with some precients realizing too late that they can't exactly do this in a single classroom this time. I've no idea what to expect on this for sure, but I won't be at all surprised to hear about things like parking lot caucuses in some places Tuesday night.

Remember the Alamo? Sen. Obama, tear down this (fire)wall.

[ Parent ]

• ##### Parking lots will work just fine(3+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
Ignacio Magaloni, Ericwmr, keenekarl

The convention can be moved with a simple majority vote.

• ##### but not until officially convened(0+ / 0-)

at 7:15, etc.

• ##### Yep(2+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
Ericwmr, SherriG

I commented below (because I am a M-O-R-A-N and I didn't put my comment in the right place) that YES INDEED, we will caucus outside!

Let's hope the weather forecasts stay in our favor!

• ##### Currently forecast to be fair & cool n/t(1+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
DallasLiberal

Electing conservatives is like hiring a carpenter who thinks hammers are evil.

[ Parent ]

• ##### Is that the weather(1+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
bwintx

Or the political forecast?  Damn, I hope for both!

• ##### What percentage has already voted?(0+ / 0-)

I'm wondering if enough have already voted early to keep the wait down on Tuesday. Any news on that? I haven't seen or heard any.

Better stock up on Depends, I guess. Gonna be a long night if you don't start caucusing until the last anti-Bush vote is cast. Yup, I see the big Dem turnout as partly an opportunity to say "up yours" to BushCult.

"Question authority and the authorities will question you." Now more than ever!
I remember when all of America was a free speech zone.

• ##### percent, dunno but raw number > 700K (0+ / 0-)

By every account this shatters all previous records and drastically outpaced the GOP, but I've no idea what percent of the total electorate that accounts for.

Remember the Alamo? Sen. Obama, tear down this (fire)wall.

[ Parent ]

• ##### its historic - why not stay.(5+ / 0-)
Recommended by:

• ##### umm, some people can't stay(1+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
hippie bitch

of course some people can't be there in the first place, whether shift workers or military abroad, which is why caucuses are so blatantly anti-Democratic, but I guess you can't say that too loud around here these days.

"When people think, Democrats win." - Bill Clinton

[ Parent ]

• ##### Oh good GAWD(5+ / 0-)

Can you imagine???

I hope I don't sound tin-foil-hat-ish, but I can imagine a scenario where certain mischevious groups may forewarn the local fire marshalls of every caucus site... and we show up to utter chaos.  What then?

Well---we caucus OUTSIDE!  Great weather is forecasted for Tuesday!  Let's keep our fingers crossed that the forecasts stay favorable!!!

• ##### Thank you for clarifying this, anna(2+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
citizenx, SherriG

We're not going to be able to caucus due to Mr. Spath's work schedule. He originally planned on taking half a personal day so we could caucus, but he used up all of his sick time and personal time for surgery recovery. I've seen a few people post that you can just sign in and leave, but I could have sworn I read somewhere that you had to stay to nominate. Thank you for verifying this.

Best wishes to everyone who is able to make the caucus.

-6.88 -6.31

"They're all crazy. They're all crazy except you and me. Sometimes I have me doubts about you." -- Garrett Fort

• ##### Also you employer MUST let you off!(6+ / 0-)

It is a class C misdemeanor if they do not according to

§ 161.007.  UNLAWFULLY PROHIBITING EMPLOYEE FROM ATTENDING POLITICAL CONVENTION.
(a)  A person commits an offense if, with respect to another over whom the person has authority in the scope of employment, the person knowingly:

(1)  refuses to permit the other person to be absent from work for the purpose of attending a precinct convention in which the other person is eligible to participate or attending a county, district, or state convention to which the other person is a delegate;  or
(2)  subjects or threatens to subject the other person to a penalty for the purpose of preventing or retaliating for the other person's attendance at a precinct convention in which the other person is eligible to participate or for the other person's attendance at a county, district, or state convention to which the other person is a delegate.

(b)  In this section, "penalty" means a loss or reduction of wages or other benefit of employment other than a deduction for the actual time of absence from work.

(c)  An offense under this section is a Class C misdemeanor.

Texas Election Code

• ##### It's not a matter of letting him off to vote(0+ / 0-)

he has to be in at work by 3am the next morning which is why he was going to take a half day of personal time that morning if he had it (which he no longer does due to surgery recovery).  If we knew for a fact that we could just sign in and be counted, that MIGHT solve our problem. But we've seen information that backs up what anna was told by her county - you have to stay to be counted. Not to mention I highly doubt given what we saw during early voting that we'd be able to sign in and leave before 8.  The lines are going to be long.  Mr. Spath is still recovering from surgery and now the flu - he knew before everything got crazy that he wouldn't be able to drive on only a few hours of sleep which is why he was planning on taking personal time. Given how sick we both were standing in an unairconditioned hallway for an hour, there's just no way to do this and have him ready to drive so early in the morning.

-6.88 -6.31

"They're all crazy. They're all crazy except you and me. Sometimes I have me doubts about you." -- Garrett Fort

[ Parent ]

• ##### The Texas Election Code specifically addresses(7+ / 0-)

this issue:

If, after the convention has been called to order and participants have signed in, any participant who wishes to leave may do so, and their sign in will count toward the delegate allocation for each candidate. Sign-In ends when the last person present waiting to sign in has done so.

Whoever is doing the training needs to read the code.

Recommended by:

folks are making this more complicated than it really is.

If you sign in and stay, your sign-in still counts toward the number of delegates your candidate receives, and you get to help select the actual people who will be the delegates for your candidate at the Senate District Convention.

-- I've got your Stimulus Package right here buddy.

[ Parent ]

• ##### Why not stay just to be SURE!?!? n/t(1+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
dickinabox
• ##### good advice(1+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
YucatanMan

and what I plan to do.

-- I've got your Stimulus Package right here buddy.

[ Parent ]

• ##### This Californian--(2+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
cappy, vivian darkbloom

who had an easy time at a quiet polling place on Feb. 5th--is trusting in the intelligence, passion and commitment of all you Texans to make this Tuesday the de-facto end of the Democratic primary.  Go, Texas!

No day but today--Obama '08

• ##### Please note This Diary is WRONG!(3+ / 0-)
Recommended by:

• ##### Happy to rec'md to increase visibility GO TX n/t(0+ / 0-)

It is the province of knowledge to speak And it is the privilege of wisdom to listen. Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr. US Jurist

• ##### Rec'd and then unrec'd(0+ / 0-)

I have no idea what is true, obviously many people that are all working very hard and are involved, attempting to be informed have different ideas.

It seems from the link to Texas Dem Party rules that signing in is sufficient, but obviously someone in the know needs to make a 100% clear declaration (like head of Texas Dems, high up legal types in campaigns) and then get it out.

Cheers for everyone's hard work in Texas though, you're all awesome!

"Our time has come, our movement is real, and change is coming to America."

• ##### Just like UT football(3+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
SherriG, vivian darkbloom, dickinabox

I'm going to come early, stay late, be loud and wear orange!  (OK, maybe I'll nix the loud and orange part.)

I hope the whole process is organized at my precinct, but I'll be there as long as needed to show my support for Obama.

• ##### An Obama supporter just came to my door(5+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
lirtydies, lizah, citizenx, YucatanMan, SherriG

and spoke with us for about 10 minutes after making sure we understood how the caucus works.

He's from California and staying with a relative here in Houston.

Our voting location is just half a mile down the same street we live on, so we'll just walk down there and stay until it's done.

• ##### What a mess(0+ / 0-)

You guys in Texas really need to simplify this next time around!

01-20-09: THE END OF AN ERROR

• ##### It's not just there it is all of U.S. really(0+ / 0-)

We really need broad based election reform on so many levels.

"Our time has come, our movement is real, and change is coming to America."

[ Parent ]

• ##### The reason it's complicated(0+ / 0-)

The Texas Democratic party is making a good faith effort to give more opportunities for Dems of all backgrounds to participate in the process. It's a way to give everyone the chance to become a delegate to the state and/or national convention(s).

• ##### Amen: nobody said democracy was EASY(1+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
Mind That

The bottom line is this: sign in and stay.  If it's hot, tough shit.  If it's crowded, tough shit. If it's chaos, tough shit. This is democracy and this is how it works.

Damn straight!

Here in Washington state, the party rules are that you can sign in and leave, because in the act of signing in you also mark your candidate preference, and that counts as a vote for purposes of delegate proportion math.

But even so, most people signed in and stayed, turning the school gymnasium where we held our local precinct caucuses into a standing-room-only chaotic organizational nightmare.

But God bless 'em, they stayed, they caucused, they made sure I did the math right in apportioning our precinct's delegates, and they stayed to select delegates to go to our legislative district caucuses in early April.

• ##### I agree but diarist is incorrect(3+ / 0-)
Recommended by:

You can still particiapte if you work or have kids or have some other reason you can't stay for the whole convention.

• ##### Delegate eligibility(0+ / 0-)

People need to realize that they are still eligible to become a delegate to the county convention even if they don't attend the precinct convention.

8. Election of Delegates and Alternates.

(a) Apportionment.

(1) Each Precinct Convention shall elect one Delegate for each 25 votes, or major fraction thereof, cast in the precinct for the Democratic candidate for Governor in the last General Election, with each precinct entitled to at least one Delegate; provided, however, that for the years 2008 and 2010, each Precinct Convention shall elect one Delegate for each 15 votes, or a major fraction thereof, cast in the precinct for the Democratic candidate for Governor in the last General Election, with each precinct entitled to at least one Delegate. (Temporary Rule Change)

(2) If boundaries of an election precinct within a county were changed after the last General Election, however, the County Executive Committee shall determine the allocation of Delegates to such precinct(s), using any fair and reasonable method.

(3) Each Precinct Convention shall elect one Alternate for each Delegate.

(b) Qualifications. The qualifications for Delegates and Alternates shall be the same as those required for participation in the convention, except that a person otherwise qualified need not be present at the convention to be elected a Delegate or Alternate.

Texas Democratic Party Rules

• ##### OK, I Get You, But...(0+ / 0-)

Can a person who signed in and left, or for that matter a person who voted in the D primary but couldn't and didn't attend the precinct convention, be eligible to be voted in as a county convention delegate by one of the candidate caucuses?

"There's no housing bubble..." - Fed Chief Ben Bernanke, 10/27/2005

• ##### Yes(0+ / 0-)

You can even be voted as a delegate if you don't attend the convention as long as you voted in the primary

• ##### Yes, BUT(0+ / 0-)

in WA state, they needed to fill out a form, either before the caucus and  submitted to the party prior to caucus day, OR in person at the caucus.  Not sure if that's true in Texas.

But all volunteers should by now have all this info in their hands.  We got a huge package of stuff to read a week or so before the caucus.

• ##### It's not that way in Texas!(0+ / 0-)

All you have to do is tell a friend to nominate you and hope there isn't enough people present that they elect another delegate.

That provision is in place in case there isn't enough people present to fill the slate. You know, the olden days.

Bush has been playing games with troops for years, he just graduated to using real troops.

[ Parent ]

• ##### THANK YOU ANNA!(0+ / 0-)

I was worried, too!

• ##### ???(1+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
assa9

This isn't right according to another recommended diary.  See:

http://www.dailykos.com/...

No more Bush!

• ##### YIKES!!! TWO pieces of business at caucus!(0+ / 0-)

and I think this is the confusion here.

1 - count all the votes and see how many delegates each candidate will be entitled to.  You don't have to stay you can cast your vote and leave, it will be counted.  HOWEVER, IF YOU LEAVE, YOUR CANDIDATE MAY HAVE TO GIVE UP DELEGATES.

1. Select delegates.  This is the part where bodies are needed.  If you don't have enough people staying to cover all the delegates you won, you may lose them.  That's what happened in my precinct - Hillary lost one delegate, it was given to us because not enough of her people were there to volunteer for all the delegate spots she won, once all the votes were counted.

TWO SEPARATE THINGS, PEOPLE!  So don't leave until you're sure that there will be enough people left to volunteer for all the delegate spots your candidate won!

• ##### That is true ONLY(0+ / 0-)

if there are not enough bodies to fill the allocated slots.  I doubt if that will happen this year.

• ##### It doesnt work that way in Texas.(0+ / 0-)

Let's say you get 5 delegates for a candidate and only four people are there who want to be a delegate. You can nominate and select a person who is not in attendance as long as they voted in the Primary.

Bush has been playing games with troops for years, he just graduated to using real troops.

[ Parent ]

• ##### Anna, It's Time To Get Kos To FP Your Diary....(0+ / 0-)

....so the other diary of misinformation falls of the rec'd list.

• ##### no it's not(1+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
lurker123

the county party parties are saying one thing and the state party is saying another.

it now seems to me that nobody knows what the fuck is going on.  i even went to training to get this shit clarified and now it looks like i've been misinformed, which in turns misinformed the community. i love looking like a giant asshole.  this sucks.

John Cornyn is an asshole with shoes. Support Rick Noriega!

[ Parent ]

• ##### One Thing Is Clear....(0+ / 0-)

....you DON'T stay and you get NO SAY in WHO your delegate actually is, which in a case where we have one candidate angling to get another candidates PLEDGED delegates - makes your diary the right one to follow.  The delegates picked must have backbone enough to withstand that kind of onslaught, reason enough for staying ALONE in my mind.

[ Parent ]

• ##### No one is urging people to leave(2+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
leberquesgue, tkmattson

the best course of action is to stay, but the post is wrong in that your sign in will not be used in the calculations if you leave.

• ##### There, now can't we all just get along?(0+ / 0-)

Was that so hard to say?

[ Parent ]

• ##### Personally, I think somehow you and anna ought...(0+ / 0-)

....to write a piece TOGETHER.

[ Parent ]

• ##### I understand your frustration(2+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
anna, leberquesgue

The rules are not as clear as they could be but the lawyers for the state party are trying to clarify and I think we should take that as the final word.  In Travis county we have always interpreted the rule the same as the state party.

Thats the best advise I can give. We don't need any voters disenfranchised.

• ##### Change the Title(1+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
aj4runner

Austin loves Obama!

• ##### I agree, replace 'convention' with 'caucus'(0+ / 0-)

That make more sense because it is a caucus being talked about in this diary.

Barack Obama in 2008! Change We Can Believe In!

[ Parent ]

• ##### This process is called a Precinct Convention(0+ / 0-)

in Texas and a caucus is the subgroup of convention participants gathering to support and elect delegates for a particular candidate. "Caucus" is also used as a verb meaning to gather in support of your candidate and select the delegates your caucus is allotted.

• ##### Convention is actually the correct word(0+ / 0-)

'Caucus' is used to signify the group of people who support one particular candidate.

• ##### Except that everyone in the media refers to this (0+ / 0-)

part of the process in Texas as a caucus. I've yet to hear one person in the media (national at least) describe the Tuesday night event at 7pm as a convention.

Barack Obama in 2008! Change We Can Believe In!

[ Parent ]

• ##### AND, Barack Obama has referred to it over and (0+ / 0-)

over as the caucus at 7pm Tuesday evening while campaigning in Texas over the past few days.

Barack Obama in 2008! Change We Can Believe In!

[ Parent ]

• ##### Plus look at the Obama website, 'convention' is(0+ / 0-)

not mentioned. It's the 'Texas Two Step', "First You Vote, Then You Caucus" ... here.

Barack Obama in 2008! Change We Can Believe In!

[ Parent ]

• ##### Yes although that is not correct(0+ / 0-)

In Texas it is called a Precinct Convention.  Just another log for the confusion pile.

• ##### It's just semantics(0+ / 0-)

People have to go to their Precinct Convention in order to caucus for the candidate of their choice.

• ##### Change the title!(0+ / 0-)

You say you're confused and don't know so have your title reflect that. As it is your title asserts a fact that you admit you're not sure about. It doesn't help matters to have to titles asserting opposite information. It may make people throw up their hands in disgust.

Who controls the past, controls the future. Who controls the present, controls the past. George Orwell

• ##### You are wrong(0+ / 1-)
Recommended by:
Hidden by:
leberquesgue

go to the rec list, honey

• ##### That is derogatory and unnecessary(0+ / 0-)

She updated long before your comment acknowledging as much. No need for this.

We are so important.

[ Parent ]

• ##### Thanks for the update(0+ / 0-)

In light of assa9's diary, I was expecting a worse misrepresentation here. Over-interpretation of the word "attending" is easy to do.

You're right of course that people should stay if they can, but I'm glad those who cannot can still be counted - as I hope you will do in your precinct.

We are so important.