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Mark Klein is the former AT&T technician who exposed the infamous secret room at AT&T's facility in San Francisco, the room that was equipped to vacuum up "comprehensive customer usage data ... and transforms it into actionable information.... (It) provides complete visibility for all internet applications." For his efforts in exposing this massive warrantless wiretapping program by AT&T on behalf of the NSA, Klein received the Electronic Frontier's Foudnation Pioneer award.

What he has yet to receive is an invitation from any committee of Congress to testify about AT&T's illegal activity. In fact, the only member of Congress to make an attempt to reach out to him has been Senator Chris Dodd.

In this video, Boing Boing's Xeni Jardin interviews Klein and EFF legal director Cindy Cohn about the case, the Congress, and the Constitution. Klein has some harsh words for Democrats who care to listen.

Maybe it's time for Mark Klein to have his day testifying before Congress. While they're at it, they could invite whistleblower Babak Pasdar who tells a very similar story about one of the nation's major wireless carriers, ironically enough very likely the wireless carrier that sponsored that video you just watched.

It's unbelievable that these stories haven't been heard by Congress, that the Democratic leadership and the chairs of the Intelligence and Judiciary committees haven't given them the opportunity to tell what they know about this highly controversial, and illegal spying on Americans.

Instead, they want to sweep it all under the rug. Tell them not to. Call your Senators and Representative and tell them to demand a hearing for these allegations. No further action on FISA until they, and we, have heard the whole story.

Call leadership and the intelligence committee chairs, and tell them, too.

Harry Reid, Phone:  (202) 224-3542, Fax: (202) 224-7327
Nancy Pelosi, Phone:  (202) 225-4965, Fax: (202) 225-8259
Jay Rockefeller, Phone:  (202) 224-6472, Fax: (202) 224-7665
Silvestre Reyes, Phone:  (202) 225-4831, Fax: (202) 225-2016

Update: Adding in Judiciary Chairs, because they could probably find some angle to bring these guys in with, and frankly would be a lot more likely to do it.
Patrick Leahy, Phone:  (202) 224-4242, Fax: (202) 224-3479
John Conyers, Phone:  (202) 225-5126, Fax: (202) 225-0072

Originally posted to Daily Kos on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 07:46 AM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Drives Me Nuts. (7+ / 0-)


    Bonkers is the word.


    ...Operation Rota is Closed... New Blog Coming Soon With Pictures!...

    by nowheredesign on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 07:46:49 AM PDT

    •  What, and Postpone the Steroids in Baseball (6+ / 0-)


      Notice: This Comment © ROGNM

      by ROGNM on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 08:01:22 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Real testimony of a real case would be an... (0+ / 0-)

      inconvenient truth, as the 2000 general election winner would say. Plus now there the guy from what, Verizon, who followed the hack back to Quantico. Two real life cases of massive, raw data trawling. Bring up the total catch - e-mails, STMs, credit card purchases, toilet paper usage patterns, etc. - and rummage through it looking for whatever the hell amuses you. Terrorist cells? Yeah, OK. Political Oppo Research? Hmmm, tasty. That'd come in handy. Blackmail fodder? Sweet.

      But we know they'd never do anything like that, right? I hope Steny knows where his sheep are.

      "He not busy being born is busy dying." R. Zimmerman

      by RUKind on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 01:50:19 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Woo Xeni! (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    MasonLee, Lord Humongous, forgore

    I love boing boing. They've been on top of this issue too, bringing it to a different (important) audience.

    To me, the absolute most important issue ANY of us has, and this nation has, is that we are currently being ruled by a gang of immoral war criminals. -Hornito

    by discocarp on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 07:49:48 AM PDT

  •  It's an oversight oversight. (9+ / 0-)

    Pardon our dust. We're remodeling.

    •  Well, we are an oversight committee.... (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      jnhobbs, forgore, eco d

      "We have been told that we cannot do this by a chorus of cynics who will only grow louder and more dissonant..."

      by LarsThorwald on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 07:51:06 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Yes, and what Mark Klein has to say (0+ / 0-)

      is an undersight, not an oversight.

      Congress is not in the undersight business.

    •  wow, kagro, that is unfortunately so true... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      Maybe dailykos needs to form an Oversight Oversight Committee, to start tracking, like Olberman does with Bush scandals ("Bushed"), all the dropped investigations -- and , in this case, the ones never undertaken or initiated.

      And of course I am serious, not just tongue in cheek... an epluribus media project comes to mind, in collaboration with drational driving the effort?  (well, i can wish, can't I?)

      _ yes he is. >> * | *

      by rhfactor on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 08:02:36 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  It'd be enlightening, that's for sure. (0+ / 0-)

        I actually tried to kick one off on my own, contacting a few oversight committees to ask if they'd share correspondence with the executive branch relating to oversight, so that we could track the status of requests for testimony and documents, subpoenas, etc.

        And wouldn't you know it? They weren't really all that interested in sharing. Surprise, huh?

        The House Judiciary Committee was the most glaring exception. They gave me copies of all correspondence sent that sought executive branch information.

        I'm still not even entirely certain that Members of Congress know how many avenues of inquiry have been cut off across the board. They're aware of the US Attorneys investigation, of course. And many of them know about investigations that their committees have had stonewalled. But I don't think anyone has ever been able to compile a comprehensive list of just how poor the "administration" record of compliance with Congressional oversight has been.

        I think it'd shock most Members of Congress as much as it'd shock the public.

        But maybe not.

        •  good points -- we are more in a position to (0+ / 0-)

          view the totality of what's been going on as "generalists"... while every congressional office is really tunnelvision constrained by their respective workloads and tasks related to that Rep's work.

          Thus I think you are right -- they themslevs have no idea at all of the scope of dropped leads, dropped loose ends, dropped followups, dropped pursuit of investigations.

          As for their not sharing key documentation, that would be a given to me.

          The way I would want to approach such a thing would be to use the TV journalism practice of "going with the story with our without their documentation"... In other words, tracking based on what we DO know that is public, and then tracking all the speculative dropped balls (like marcy did for Plamegate), and then start asking those questions, over and over, and going on camera with their responses. It would rather quickly begin to show, to a public who's viewing such youtube video reports, that these offices have something to hide. And we press and press until they start to feel heat from the implications that they are stonewalling the people in exactly the same way the Bush Admin has been stonewalling them...

          and the net effect is they get painted as the hypocrites that they are.

          well, that's my fantasy view at least...

          Media is our tool. Govt is not.

          _ yes he is. >> * | *

          by rhfactor on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 08:54:54 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Mark Klein (8+ / 0-)

    a true American hero and the inspiration for my (unfortunate, yet poignant) signature.  

    This comment has been crossposted at AT&T: 611 Folsom St, San Francisco, CA - Room 641A.

    by ManahManah on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 07:51:45 AM PDT

    •  you are so right. It is damning how Democrats (5+ / 0-)

      systematically abandon whistleblowers, including Sibel Edmunds as well.

      but Mark Klein's case is extraordinary... and for our congress to just ignore it while they throw our rights away with their retroactive immunity, well it's criminal.

      ... and thanks yet again, as always, mcjoan, for staying on top of this. Let me ask you mcjoan, would YOU interview him on camera? and start filing video reports on YouTube?

      If you come to SF I will shoot & edit the interviews with Mark Klein. This is the issue I care about above all else. It's way way more impt than the Presidential Election in  my book.

      Couldn't you do video reports like Marcy Wheeler  did for Plamegate?

      _ yes he is. >> * | *

      by rhfactor on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 08:06:40 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  They don't want the dirtly little details (4+ / 0-)

    They just want to continue playing political badminton with it.

  •  Klein is a hero who risked it all for...? (5+ / 0-)

    Congress is really pissing me off lately.  And by lately I mean since 1994, but really pissing me off since 2007.  

    Imagine Jeff Wigand blowing the whistle on Big Tobacco, and Big Tobacco getting rewarded for their behavior.  Oh, wait....

    "We have been told that we cannot do this by a chorus of cynics who will only grow louder and more dissonant..."

    by LarsThorwald on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 07:53:38 AM PDT

    •  lately? LATELY? ... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      illusionmajik, OleHippieChick

      Lars... I know what you mean but I think maybe it's more accurately a case of "they piss us all off SO MUCH as a constant, that the only way to differentiate from the years of pissed-offness is to try to accentuate their overall abdication of responsibility with an adverb of "lately".... Otherwise it's like reporting another day in Bagdhad... Not much different, same old thing, but still tragic and significant in scope every single day.

      _ yes he is. >> * | *

      by rhfactor on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 08:09:57 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  he had a great NPR interview the other day (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    illusionmajik, discocarp, forgore

    with this Spitzer story breaking, there seems to me to be ALOT more to this story than meets the eye.

    Has alot of dirt all ready been picked up by the NSA ready to blackmail if they don't 'cave' and grant immunity?

    "You may be on the right track, but if you sit still, you'll get run over" Will Rogers

    by gaspare on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 07:54:57 AM PDT

  •  Why? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    That would be because he has nothing to add that would influence their decision. His testimony might just muck thing up.

    This Spitzer thing should bother members of congress. He is guilty, so the fact that he was pursued for political reasons will go unnoticed, but at their peril. The corruption in DOJ is a time bomb set to go off against any of them, regardless of who is in the WH or who controls congress.

    Siegelman was the first, but they've matured since then, now they'll find real crimes.

  •  Video Brought to You By Verizon (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jrooth, Five of Diamonds

    "The capitalists will sell the rope for the noose to hang themselves" - Communist slogan

    "The telcos will sell the Internet for the news to hang themselves" - 21st Century hope for the survival of the Constitution

    The Congress might turn a deaf ear to Klein, but the telcos and the NSA are listeneng. To this message you're reading, too. Hi, Dick!

    "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

    by DocGonzo on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 07:57:36 AM PDT

  •  One of the many frustrating parts of... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    illusionmajik, forgore

    Congress' actions is that they're leaving this patriotic whistleblower swinging in the wind.

    All the war-propaganda, all the screaming and lies and hatred, comes invariably from people who are not fighting. - George Orwell

    by Five of Diamonds on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 07:58:04 AM PDT

    •  He is the enemy (4+ / 0-)

      They wouldn't have these problems if he hadn't made it public. The less attention he gets, the better.

      •  And those who have most to LOSE are pelosi & (4+ / 0-)

        Feinstein... who have known about this for years,,, yet they are angling for retro immunity.

        Once again: feinstein's district office in San Francisco is only NINE blocks away from Ground Zero -- the AT&T building where the NSA tap exists.

        Pelosi's district office is only 20 blocks away.

        They know what's up, and I will just bet you that an inquiry would uncover that they both knew -- and approved this spying -- and their biggest nightmare would be explaining to America how they both condemned this spying now, but aproved it themselves. Just like Pelosi approved of the use of torture.

        This "case" is so damn obvious. The ones most vested in keeping this off the radar are Pelosi & feinstein.

        They are, in my view, the enemy.

        And surely Klein is their enemy.

        _ yes he is. >> * | *

        by rhfactor on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 08:16:31 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  And while they're at it (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Pescadero Bill, jrooth, illusionmajik

    I'd like to see them bring in Nacchio to talk about why he decided to keep Qwest out of the program.

    Guil: So there you are. Ros: Stark raving sane. - T. Stoppard, Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead

    by eco d on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 07:58:28 AM PDT

  •  To his credit (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    John Dingell, House Chariman of Energy and Commerce wrote a letter to his colleagues:

    Mr. Pasdar's allegations are not new to the Committee on Energy and Commerce, but our attempts to verify and investigate them further have been blocked at every turn by the Administration. Moreover, the whistleblower's allegations echo those in an affidavit filed by Mark Klein...

    Because legislators should not vote before they have sufficient facts, we continue to insist that all House Members be given access to the necessary information, including the relevant documents underlying this matter, to make an informed decision on their vote. After reviewing the documentation and these latest allegations, Members should be given adequate time to properly evaluate the separate question of retroactive immunity.

    Hat tip to Wired Blog Network

    This comment has been crossposted at AT&T: 611 Folsom St, San Francisco, CA - Room 641A.

    by ManahManah on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 07:58:54 AM PDT

  •  He didn't allegedly use steroids, that's why he (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Pescadero Bill, Terminus, eco d

    has not testified  

    Don't be so afraid of dying that you forget to live.

    by LionelEHutz on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 08:00:32 AM PDT

    •  If someone started the rumor (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      that he was on steroids while videotaping the play-calling of the Jets, he'd get whiplash from how fast he'd be dragged in to testify.

      Guil: So there you are. Ros: Stark raving sane. - T. Stoppard, Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead

      by eco d on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 08:03:33 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  • (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    discocarp, jfarelli

    is a great site!

  •  This Congress......... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    ......has me thinking of a royal fanticy court, in an imperial kingdom. Jesters and maids, cortisans and all the intigue, deception and crookery. Everyone vieing for favor and riches. And all so neatly removed from real life in the rough streets of Bhagdad or New Orleans.

    Congress plays at keeping 'We The People' occupied while King George goes ahead and robbs the US treasury and sends us into surfdom.

    If anyone in Congress wanted to make a clean sweep, now would be a good time to do it. After all the King Georgie has just denyed the Republic of the right to do away with torture. Thus opening himself up to violations of solemn treaty, which is the rule of law.

    Will we see the good guy, in a white hat and riding a white horse save the day!!!!!!!!!!! Or will we watch the squirels continue to feather their own nests???? hummmmmmmmm wadda ya think??????????

    The bastards better get off the stump and do the right thing, for once!!!!!!!!!

  •  Why Intel and not judiciary or Commerce? (0+ / 0-)

    Keep your eyes on November, Frodo. Don't use The Ring.

    by ben masel on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 08:05:35 AM PDT

  •  I would be willing to bet (0+ / 0-)

    that this type of warrentless wiretapping has been going on for decades, and is going on now, and will continue to go on despite any laws now on the books. You are not paranoid if they really are watching you.

    If you are not willing to die for your freedom, your freedom will die.

    by Levi the Oracle on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 08:07:14 AM PDT

    •  i actually believe that FISA was probably (0+ / 0-)

      complied with most of those times -- acquiring a warrant ex post facto, to comply with FISA, let give them the latitude and freedom to wiretap anyone suspicious.

      Maybe I am naive, but I do believe before this administration polluted and poisoned our govt and its agencies, even people within NSA and CIA and FBI complied with most of the laws on the books. why? because pre-Bush there was an enforcement arm of the govt that had not been made a partisan extension of the White House.

      _ yes he is. >> * | *

      by rhfactor on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 08:21:08 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  No! Don't call! (4+ / 1-)
    Recommended by:
    m00nchild, chimpy, dotdot, DontTaseMeBro
    Hidden by:

    It's just time to smash the equipment. I'm done scratching my head trying to figure out why our leaders don't act on anything.

    The answer is all too obvious. I mean, don't you feel somewhat silly expecting them to do something?

    Here's how the FISA vote can go our way: march en-mass on the telco facilities and tell them to either hand over the equipment of we will just come in a take it ourselves.

    The equipment is illegal, and congress has no intention at all of advocating for the people.

    I was happiest as a heathen.

    by MouseOfSuburbia on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 08:07:22 AM PDT

    •  Much as I empathize (0+ / 0-)

      I can't agree with advocacy of such an illegal act.  Nor do I think it's something we want on the site.

      Thank you Senator Dodd!

      by jrooth on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 08:16:08 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Uprated. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      Although I don't condone such actions, I also don't think it's tr worthy.

      "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect." Mark Twain

      by dotdot on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 08:23:49 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  No need to TR (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        forgore, DontTaseMeBro

        Having written that with NSAT&T looking over his or her shoulder, MouseOfSuburbia has likely been bundled into a van for questioning already.

        It is important to point out, at least occasionally why we have the rule of law. In the long run, it's a more cost-effective alternative to repeated lurches between iron-fist control and mob uprisings. We (ok, hypothetically) have courts to hold companies accountable for their mis-deeds, so mobs don't need to smash their equipment, or drag their CEOs from their beds for tar and feather treatment.

        Why is there a Confederate Flag flying in Afghanistan?

        by chimpy on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 08:36:10 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Really? (0+ / 0-)

        Advocating breaking into a facility and destroying equipment isn't HR worthy?

        I'm sorry, but I disagree.  Where's the line?  Is any advocacy of property crime OK?  How about advocating violence against people?  Is that OK as long as it's people we don't like?

        If this is going to be a site that condones advocating crime, then maybe I don't belong here.

        Thank you Senator Dodd!

        by jrooth on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 09:25:32 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I think you got your panties in a twist. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          Advocating breaking into a facility and destroying equipment isn't HR worthy?

          I think the comment was just venting. I really don't think the commenter is advocating getting a group of people together to break into At&T to destroy equipment. Let's be realistic here please.

          "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect." Mark Twain

          by dotdot on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 09:39:47 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  So if someone were to say (0+ / 0-)

            "It's time to shoot ___"

            (fill in your own blank)

            That would just be "venting" and I shouldn't get my "panties in a twist?"

            The hell with that.  I objected when Ann Coulter advocated bombing the NYT (even though she claimed that was only venting) and I'm damn well going to object when DKos members advocate breaking in and destroying property.

            Thank you Senator Dodd!

            by jrooth on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 09:48:34 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Advocating shooting someone (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:

              and saying we should smash some illegal spying equipment is not the same. Feel free to object all you want, I'm also free to object your objection.

              "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect." Mark Twain

              by dotdot on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 09:58:46 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  OK, so property crime is OK but violence is not (0+ / 0-)

                So if someone were to say about Senator Clinton or Senator Obama "It's time we teach that (fill in your own expletive here) a lesson, lets burn down all their campaign offices"  you'd be just fine with that?

                My bet is that would be HR'd to oblivion in a nanosecond and a massive troll hunt initiated immediately.  All for a little venting ...

                Venting is a wonderful thing and I do it too, but I think it's worth maintaining a bright line against venting (or even joking) that advocates crime.  I think that degrades this site and damages our purpose.  

                But as you said, you're free to disagree.  But if this becomes the norm I'm going to have to seek my political advocacy fix elsewhere, I guess.

                Thank you Senator Dodd!

                by jrooth on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 10:07:18 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

        •  Legally, protected by Brandenburg v Ohio (0+ / 0-)

          Site rules are open to further interpretation.

          U.S. Supreme Court:  BRANDENBURG v. OHIO, 395 U.S. 444 (1969)

          Since the statute, by its words and as applied, purports to punish mere advocacy and to forbid, on pain of criminal punishment, assembly with others merely to advocate the described type of action, it falls within the condemnation of the First and Fourteenth Amendments. Freedoms of speech and press do not permit a State to forbid advocacy of the use of force or of law violation except where such advocacy is directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action and is likely to incite or produce such action.

          Keep your eyes on November, Frodo. Don't use The Ring.

          by ben masel on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 10:00:06 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I never claimed the post was illegal. (0+ / 0-)

            Just not a line I like to see crossed.  There are plenty of ways to vent that don't involve advocating crime.  See the incomparable Hunter, for example.  Best damn rants in history and I don't think I've ever seen any suggestion of criminal behavior.

            Thank you Senator Dodd!

            by jrooth on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 10:10:01 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Glad you understood the distinction. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:

              The Brandenburg excerpt may have been useful to others.

              Keep your eyes on November, Frodo. Don't use The Ring.

              by ben masel on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 10:13:55 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  advocating the overthrow of the british (0+ / 0-)

              was illegal during the revolution, no?

              Experience teaches only the teachable. -Aldous Huxley // We have a Democratic Congress now and there's still no oversight. - Carl Bernstein

              by DontTaseMeBro on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 01:05:26 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  That's true (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:

                Hence "We must, indeed, all hang together, or most assuredly we shall all hang separately."

                But I don't particularly think dailyKos is an appropriate place to foment revolution either.  As I understand the purpose of this site, it is one of working within the system (i.e. by promoting progressive activism within the structure of the Democratic Party.)

                Thank you Senator Dodd!

                by jrooth on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 01:16:01 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  So I submit to you... (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:

                  that's the 'line' we have to consider -- is the message being posted here on Kos an actual call to arms, a theoretical one, venting, and so on.  Crossing the line may vary from person to person.

                  Your comments are thoughtful and we value the discussion.  I prefer to reserve troll rates to uncivil discourse.


                  Experience teaches only the teachable. -Aldous Huxley // We have a Democratic Congress now and there's still no oversight. - Carl Bernstein

                  by DontTaseMeBro on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 01:51:25 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

          •  Imminent (0+ / 0-)

            I would also TR someone who said "Meet me at 2:00 on Saturday to Smash The Telcos."  That's imminent.  And jrooth, let's be real -- nobody is likely to incite or produce such action as a result of the declaration.

            Experience teaches only the teachable. -Aldous Huxley // We have a Democratic Congress now and there's still no oversight. - Carl Bernstein

            by DontTaseMeBro on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 01:01:18 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  jrooth, would you care to explain your troll rate (0+ / 0-)

      I agree with your comment about not advocating an illegal act, but I was under the impression that troll ratings were for uncivil or abusive comments, not for an opposing opinion.

      In fact, we are living during times where discussions of acts that are illegal may be good for the soul -- our own government is abusing the constitution, so the expression of 'taking matters into our own hands,' as The People, makes sense.

      Experience teaches only the teachable. -Aldous Huxley // We have a Democratic Congress now and there's still no oversight. - Carl Bernstein

      by DontTaseMeBro on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 12:53:23 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I did explain my Hide rating. (0+ / 0-)

        Specifically because there was advocacy of an illegal act and in my understanding allowing such advocacy is contrary to the interest and purpose of this site.

        As Hunter wrote:

           To [Hide] Rate something has exactly one meaning. When you [Hide] Rate something, as a trusted user, you are stating that the comment should be made invisible to all site users.  You're saying that the comment is so bad -- so disruptive or damaging to the community -- that it isn't worth even a debate, but should be deleted from the discussion as being simply inflammatory, simply off-topic, or simply a lie.

           Remember that, because that is the only use of the troll rating. It is an editorial vote to delete a comment from the conversation.

           Conversely, there is one particular reason [hide] ratings should never be used: to express disagreement with a poster's opinion.

        My HR was not for disagreement on opinion - I even stated that I sympathize.  My HR was due to my conviction that this is a slippery slope to further degeneration.

        While I'm all for venting, in my opinion as a TU of this site is that allowing venting to venture into calling for criminal behavior is damaging to this site.  Obviously I'm in the minority here, since I'm the only HR and there are four uprates, but despite the ensuing discussion my opinion is unchanged.  And as I understand it, this is precisely how the system is intended to work.

        Thank you Senator Dodd!

        by jrooth on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 01:45:13 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Fair enough (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          I think it's interesting that my take on the HR is different from yours, and that's what makes the world go 'round.  From where I sit, you are censoring an opinion.  I am respectfully differing with you on the use of a HR.


          Experience teaches only the teachable. -Aldous Huxley // We have a Democratic Congress now and there's still no oversight. - Carl Bernstein

          by DontTaseMeBro on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 02:04:32 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  I just got back. I would have jumped in... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          First, I'm not advocating any specific plan. I don't even know where the equipment is.

          I don't know what the solution is, but I am surprised that you are unwilling to entertain even the possibility that we advocate for ourselves at some point.

          I too believe in the rule of law. Let me quote from a diary that I wrote a few weeks ago:

          The bedrock of all society is justice. Justice ensures that actions and transactions are zero-sum endeavors. Justice provides the capital to balance inequities: I don't steal a bag of chips from the store, I buy them if I am willing to pay the price. If I steal them, justice puts up the capital for me and charges interest.

          When an injustice is allowed to stand, it results in something far worse than the injustice itself. It is an affront to all, and fuels the notion of an entitled class that is above the law, and a government that is indifferent to the needs of its people. The perception of belonging to a "lower" class cuts right to our dignity and breeds resentment. Resentment is our internal justice system that corrects the inequities not by raising our own sense of importance, but by lowering the value of the other class.

          mcjoan has been capturing the slow-motion abortion of justice that is happening on this one issue. Don't you feel it? Don't you just get the sense that not only will the crime be permitted to stand, but that the justice system itself will be deprived of even the chance to ascertain the scope and nature of the crime.

          Why do you think mcjoan is reporting on this every single day? This is not just about FISA per-se. This is about the violence being done to the very checks and balances that civilization has found to work to keep things zero-sum.

          If the lawmakers capitulate, what do you suggest would be the remedy for the people? Voting them out won't fix it because you can't go back and make something retroactively illegal, and that's assuming they would even entertain the idea.

          You are talking about saving equipment, I am talking about something a bit more symbolic.

          FISA is just one of many, but FISA carries with it some extra significance in that it is the first step being taken toward the wholesale collection of our private lives. It may even be used someday to prevent the organization of opposition to some other dangerous government policy. I have no idea where your threshold is, but I assume there is some injustice that the government may perpetrate that you may feel needs direct intervention. If not, then you don't deserve freedom.

          I say the case can be made that if they cave in on FISA, the people should dump the equipment in Boston harbor.

          I was happiest as a heathen.

          by MouseOfSuburbia on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 03:43:18 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I don't know how to expand (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            on what I've already written.

            My HR was not an attack on you nor am I labeling you a troll.  Furthermore, as I said in explaining myself initially, I empathize with the sentiment.  I share the worry and frustration.  But my opinion of what is best for this site remains.


            Thank you Senator Dodd!

            by jrooth on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 04:16:26 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I don't care if it was an attack on me (0+ / 0-)

              I was just trying to clarify my position.

              I didn't take your attack personal, and I don't care a bit about the donut. I just wanted to base my original comment, which was done in haste.

              This site is well protected from comments that meet the criteria of sedition. It is dealt with swiftly.

              I'm not sure it's up to you to determine what's best for this site. I'm not saying that to be mean, all I'm saying is think about what you are suggesting. Can it be up to anyone else too? That's not sarcastic; I'm just turning it around so you see things from a broader point.

              If my comment recieved another donut, it would have been hidden, and yet there was nothing offensive or illegal (in a tea-party sense) about it - or it was at least not as offensive as capitulating on FISA.

              What do you think the proper course is for the people if Congress does capitulate? It's an important question because it's not just sanctioning an illegal act and providing immunity, it also removes the only avenue the people legally have to even uncover the scope of what is being done against us.

              Please answer this, because I need to be made aware of what other remedies we have. I am all ears for ideas. This is a very serious matter.

              I was happiest as a heathen.

              by MouseOfSuburbia on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 04:48:19 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Of course it's up to others as well (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:

                I'm not the Unitary trusted user.

                As I said above, obviously I'm in the minority here since mine is the sole HR.  And as I understand it, that's exactly how the TU system is supposed to work.

                But I don't think you can read the whole exchange above and not recognize I've thought about it.  My opinion is still the same.

                DailyKos has a focus.  It's been described in various ways, but I'll stick with what I said above:

                As I understand the purpose of this site, it is one of working within the system (i.e. by promoting progressive activism within the structure of the Democratic Party.)

                Now it's perfectly possible that this approach will fail.  But as of now I still think it may succeed.  And so long as that's the purpose of the site I think that ought to be respected and practiced.

                I can't predict the future, but if some set of people conclude that some other method, be it civil disobedience or work stoppages or whatever you wish to propose is necessary, then I expect they'll choose something other than a prominent public forum to discuss it.

                Thank you Senator Dodd!

                by jrooth on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 05:19:32 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I hope they do (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:

                  I hope any possible capitulation is not allowed to stand. I am honestly at a loss for ideas on how to get them to listen and advocate for the people.

                  I too gave it some thought, and as you can see, my comment was not just a knee-jerk call for popular uprising.

                  I am actually going to investigate the legality of writing a program that simply broadcasts a continuous stream of innocuous statements such as "Please flea bomb the white house at the end of the street".

                  If, on a voluntary basis, people chose to run it as a background task for one day, the automated intelligence gathering and threat assessment equipment would be rendered useless from an overload of non-specific, non-localized, threatening sounding, non-threats - I would like to call it FOX news but that is already taken.

                  The point is, flagged communications need human eyes to make the final judgement. If they had to read 75 billion messages that were deemed threatening, they would never get it done. They couldn't desensitize the software without major analysis because they wouldn't want to let things slip through.

                  The only reason I am even blue-skying this is because the rational me views the possibility of terrorists actually communicating in clear text via email or on the phone is patently absurd.

                  On the other hand, the rational me views the possibility of an unchecked eavesdropping system being targeted at Democratic phones for instance as eventually quite high. In fact, the FBI is already admitting they have used illegally gathered intel on US citizens that had nothing to do with terrorism.

                  There is another issue here too: the phone companies themselves now possibly have major leverage over the government with what they know. They are prevented by law from analyzing the telemetry of calling patterns other than for gross statistics. If they decide that they are interested when the frequency of calls increases between a large investment bank and some other large company, who could stop them from speculating that maybe the other company might be in play?

                  They have access to information that others don't, and they can use that information to gain an unfair advantage not possible for everyone else. The government is much less likely to stop it for fear of stirring the pot.

                  Once a crack is allowed to stand, the whole system is weakened. I view a FISA capitulation as a grave threat because of the huge and tempting potential of all the information that can be used outside of oversight.

                  Think of the possibilities; tipping off corporations about lawsuits, undermining legislation research. It is endless. They have already admitted using the system outside the bounds of legality and claim they will correct it. If there is no oversight, or no way to even know what they are doing, how can they be trusted?

                  The usefulness of the system to society cannot possibly be so great that it offsets the massive violation of our liberties.

                  The only conclusion is they are going to have find another way to keep us safe. A change in foreign policy might go quite a ways toward that goal. I can live without the system. I assess risk all the time - after all, I drive in traffic.

                  Please excuse the grammar and spelling, I'm being glared at by small children. I think they are hungry (west coast time).

                  I was happiest as a heathen.

                  by MouseOfSuburbia on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 06:15:38 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

        •  Also, I don't fear donuts... (0+ / 0-)

          I eat them for breakfast.

          I was happiest as a heathen.

          by MouseOfSuburbia on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 03:46:09 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Klein will be on PBS friday night (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    chimpy, jrooth, Ken in MN, jnhobbs, bsmechanic

    Check your local listing for NOW on PBS

    To think is easy. To act is difficult. To act as one thinks is the most difficult of all -Goethe

    by commonscribe on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 08:07:27 AM PDT

  •  The missing piece here (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Ken in MN, forgore, DontTaseMeBro

    Is to map the telecom donations to the various positions of the electeds. I think that will tell us all we need to know.

  •  The chair of the Senate committee (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Ken in MN, forgore

    that has oversight of the Dept of Homeland Security too - Joe Lieberman (and former chair Susan Collins) haven't had the Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs Committee look into this either.

  •  Mark Klein (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    tarheelblue, forgore

    has the protection of the people so the Congress should likewise be interested on this guy.

    As we speak, Total Information Awareness or an uglier form of it is a reality. If Americans knew it would be an outrage.

    The DLC has robbed Democrats of their voice.

    by Data Mining Telecom Fascist on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 08:11:59 AM PDT

  •  I was under the distinct impresssion that he had (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    eco d

    testifed, at least to committte hearings" I distinctly remember watching him testify on CSPAN some months ago.

    I really appreciate these attempt by the blogosphere to keep their elected reps feet to the fires but am also seriously beginning to wonder about this 'government by universal committee'. How many of us could operate efficiently in our daily lives if every five minutes we received a phone call or an email from someone looking over our shoulders to say we should take another course of action.

    I doubt much creative or competent work would ever get done. I see that principle now emerging in the presidential campaigns as the candidates are being forced into responding publicly to their opponenys charges and counter charges, by not only the media but the blogosphere as well. I don't see it is making Obama look any stronger as he is forced to try and prove the charges of being fit to be commander and chief and vice president are counter intuitive. All it is doing is making him look like the oft quoted line 'methinks my lady/lad doth protest too much' and is  ripping his much vaunted claim to be the above it all uniter a complete sham.

    There will be no unification of this nation any time soon   and oddly enough, to me anyway, this latest Spitzer flap has just taken the entire battle back to the underlying one which involves America's cultural attitudes towards sex and violence, whereby illict sex is immoral and illegal war is patriotic.  The 'Values' argument is now paramount once more. We are a nation of hypocrites!

    Was the Spitzer wire-tapping legal?  or will that all fall by the wayside as  'the end justifies the means' and he got caught doing something wrong meme hits cyberspace.  I yearn for the days when one could rely on a certain degree of privacy in one's life, these days I feel like I have an electronic probe in my brain as i sleep, directed from a satellite in the sky.

    •  Wow, great catch (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      I looked back and you're right, he did testify Nov 8. before House and Senate Judiciary committee members (or staff?) it looks like most of what i was able to find, though was about how he was going to testify. I still haven't found any reporting on what he actually testified about, if anyone finds a link on that this would be great info.

      Here are a couple of links talking about it the day of or before. may need NYT login for this one

      Guil: So there you are. Ros: Stark raving sane. - T. Stoppard, Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead

      by eco d on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 08:28:09 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I think your concern is overall valid and fair... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      but I think it is, in practice, it is grossly exagerrated.

      Any silicon valley startup could track and manage 100x the complexity of what's out there ... and task manage all the parts, and keep resources focused on the most impt things.

      It's just that we are conditioned to an inefficient and, sorry but i believe true, incompetent govt so we exagerrate the complexity of their tasks.

      Let the people who run the Cooperative Research project -- and the 9/11 Timeline get tasked with this -- and take every dollare allocated to Congressional staff and funnel it to a competent organ izational structure who have experience with information architecture and tracking... then we'd see NOTHING slipping thru the cracks.. Not one thing.

      This really is what's needed. I think it's time we examine how we fund our government. because they routinely, every day, mis-spend our money and apply it toward the wrong priorities (witness the steroids hearings as but one example).

      _ yes he is. >> * | *

      by rhfactor on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 08:31:47 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Define efficient (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      If you define efficiency as the ability to get legislation passed quickly then the republicans are your party. Why they can get a bill passed and signed without even taking the time to read it.

      Perhaps efficiency isn't the highest priority?

      I think the way the committee structure used to work, works well for a democracy, it was efficient when clear action is called for, deliberative when more information was needed. Congress should take time to gather information and explore alternate solutions when they don't have a clear idea of what action is needed.

      Some people claimed it was broken, taking the time to find the best solution meant they didn't get what they wanted right away or perhaps at all because it came at the expense of others.

      Fortunately, the republicans have fixed it, now it is deliberative when action is needed and efficient when more information is needed.

      Quite a system they have worked out. Did you know now they send the bills they want vetoed to committee and the bills they want modified to the president?

      Live to create the world you want to live in.

      by beerm on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 08:56:48 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  It is so obvious, it is sickening. (0+ / 0-)

    Look, the deals have been made. Everything that you see is merely a charade. They don't WANT to know the truth, nor the nature and extent.

    Just look at the bullshit report that the 9/11 Commission concocted. You think they spent untold millions, months of time, and loads of PR, with a few bits of tid to spice things up, without knowing the result ahead of time? Hell, they could have written the report on day one, and it would have looked the same.

    Klein could upset their plans, much like Clarke was coming close to upsetting their war on terror and Iraq plans.

    In the United States, doing good has come to be, like patriotism, a favorite device of persons with something to sell. - Mencken

    by agnostic on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 08:15:18 AM PDT

  •  "Can you hear me now?" (0+ / 0-)

    "LALALALALALALALA!!!!!!" replied Congress...

    I want my Two Dollars!

    by Ken in MN on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 08:17:05 AM PDT

  •  What is the legal status of internet traffic? (0+ / 0-)

    No question that the internet can be as damaging to privacy or even more than telephone calls, but does it have the same legal status?

    Have the courts addressed the question of whether we have a reasonable expectation of privacy in our internet traffic?

    I'm thinking, for examples, of warnings not send private information out in unencrypted e-mails because all manner of folk can get hold of them.

    If there is not expectation of privacy, he'd be called to testify about...I'm not sure.

    Maybe it's the creation of something new and nefarious by comprehensive collection and correlation of information -- much of which is merely a lark by people who think they are anonymous.

    In that case, an appearance in the process of creating a new law would seem very appropriate.

    Free speech? Yeah, I've heard of that. Have you?

    by dinotrac on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 08:17:49 AM PDT

    •  Mixed. (0+ / 0-)

      Postings to publicly accessible sites, ie blogs and forums do not carry any expectation of Privacy.

      International E-mail with one end in the US seems to fall under the customs exemption to the 4th Amendment, but may again have Statutory protection with the expiration of the PROTECT Act.

      Then there's the Stored Communications Act, which makes old, but not current, Email open game.  

      Keep your eyes on November, Frodo. Don't use The Ring.

      by ben masel on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 08:27:19 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yuck. (0+ / 0-)

        I really hate to have a mishmash of standards.  Not only can it lull the senses, it makes successful criminal prosecution harder, as crimes require proving some level of intent:

        You mean we got stuff we weren't supposed to get?  Why that's just terrible, terrible I say.  We were really going after this perfectly permissible stuff.  Guess our filter is hosed.  We'll fix it right away, yesirree, Bob!!!!!

        Free speech? Yeah, I've heard of that. Have you?

        by dinotrac on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 09:03:24 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  "Content' vs Headers of Email (0+ / 0-)

          The Administration's been going with an interpretation distinguishing the text of emails, which get at lerast minimal protection, from the ostensibly "outside of the envelope" fields, To: From: When: CC:, and sometimes Subject:

          In a 2002 post to the Politech list, John Gilmore explains why even this data should enjoy protection... Read the whole thing, it's excellent. FC: UK wiretapping "traffic" vs. "contents" a sham, by John Gilmore

          They're trying to claim the "addressing" or "signalling"information not just at the physical circuit-switched level, where the previous law anchored it, but at every level of abstraction available inside the content of the communication.

          The reason you can't just let this concept "float" to higher levels is because there is no limit to the "addressing" or "signalling" information. EVERY bit of the communication is just "addressing" or"signalling" information, at some level of abstraction.  What is"signaling" information to one layer is the CONTENT of the next layer down. That CONTENT is protected by today's wiretap laws and by the


          OK, up one level from this human-oriented addressing information, we clearly have "content".  Well, or do we?  There are human generatedwords in there, but it might well be that there are other levels of abstraction to our communication. The communication is happening in a context.  Jim works at CDT, I'm on the board of EFF.  Those
          organizations have a long and detailed history. The fact that I'm taking the time to respond to Jim's query in detail, at 4AM, communicates something about the current state of the relationship between the two organizations.  The fact that the message relates to a government wiretapping initiative also says something about what the
          two organizations feel are important issues to put our time into. This is all very relevant "content", of the sort that a CIA analyst or a prosecutor might well impute into an intercepted message, but which is only implied by the actual text of the communication.

          When my ex-girlfriend of years ago phoned me on the night of September 11th, the real message wasn't what she said; the real message was that when the world looked shaky and strange, she thought to call me.  The actual words we exchanged were merely signaling information.

          Keep your eyes on November, Frodo. Don't use The Ring.

          by ben masel on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 09:33:31 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Having spent a little time programming http (0+ / 0-)

            communications, I have a hard time accepting the notion of addressing as content in the sense Gilmore is trying to present in that first quote, but the second is something else altogether - the actual fact that we are, with intent, reaching out to somebody else for some purpose, is, in fact, information about us.

            The steps in-between, they're just the by-products of shuffling packets around the network.

            Free speech? Yeah, I've heard of that. Have you?

            by dinotrac on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 11:51:03 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  ? (0+ / 0-)

        What about traffic that is intended to be private like VPNs.

        Will VOIP traffic be treated the same as phone conversations?

        What about postings to public sites with an expectation of privacy as in confidential replys to surveys or secure transactions?

        Finally, are the privacy expectations for a communication dependent on the OSI layer. Does a communication have the same privileges at the SMTP layer as it does at the data link layer. Put one other way, "Is it okay to intercept the frames at the data link layer, when it would require a court order to retrieve a message from a mail server?".

        Live to create the world you want to live in.

        by beerm on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 09:20:25 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  All good questions. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          The Gilmore piece I link above disects further.

          Keep your eyes on November, Frodo. Don't use The Ring.

          by ben masel on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 09:38:28 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  asdf (0+ / 0-)

            Yes, thanks for the link. It is a much more detailed version of the questions I was asking.

            A couple of important points they discuss, first I like that they point out that  addressing information is content information at a different layer of the communications process. This is true even of non-electronic information.

            Addressing information about you is also content information. Knowing who you communicate with is sometimes more valuable than the contents of the communication.

            I also like the example he used to illustrate what I call meta-information, content carried with a communication outside of the content. The fact that his ex-girlfriend called him on 9/11 carried more information than the call itself.

            This is the sort of information useful in social network analysis. Just knowing the patterns of communications without ever knowing the contents can be analyzed to identify hubs which are opinion leaders and high value targets if you want to disrupt a network of people.

            Live to create the world you want to live in.

            by beerm on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 10:22:54 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  never been 4th Amendment protected (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:

              at least not since DrugWar rulings in the early 70s. This is why the Congress then created procedures for "Pen Registers," less due process than "wiretaps," but still some accountability. My hunch is that these procedures not being followed is the biggest piece behind the immunity fight. Lots more plaintiffs, hence big bucks.

              Keep your eyes on November, Frodo. Don't use The Ring.

              by ben masel on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 10:56:01 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Understood (0+ / 0-)

                The whole concept of the pen register is based upon the mechanical relay model of phone circuitry. Telephone communication circuits were established as direct links and the 'addressing information' was on the 'outside' of the communication, in a public area, the telephone exchange.

                This model isn't and hasn't really been applicable for a couple of decades. The phone systems as well as the internet are all just bitstreams on the backbone, hence some of my questions concerning whether the protections were the same on different layers.

                The point that I wish to make is that civil rights protections for communications should be media independent. The conversation should be protected whether it is a direct circuit or packets on the internet.

                I agree that given the nature of internet communications, it is highly unlikely that the companies can follow the rules for pen registers but, I also do not think it would generate sufficient public outrage to warrant the administrations concern.

                I think the big problem that they have is, because they were working outside of process, the administration has given the information to entities that should not receive it.

                I think what they fear is that the telcoms would testify that the information collected was provided to companies like Halliburton, KBR, or Blackwater or political entities like the RNC. That would generate public outrage.

                I don't see the administration going to the mat over telco money, I do see them going to the mat to protect themselves.

                Live to create the world you want to live in.

                by beerm on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 11:51:57 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  You underestimate the $ involved. (0+ / 0-)

                  If I'm right that it's about "pen register" data, the statutory damages could be a trillion bucks. ATT's total market capitalization is 1/3 of that.

                  Keep your eyes on November, Frodo. Don't use The Ring.

                  by ben masel on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 12:15:29 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

  •  I wonder how they're using all the info. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    they're collecting.  Don't be surprised if it's used to get their enemies, and I don't mean terrorists.  This is a slippery slope into gutter politics.  If they keep this up, they'll destroy the phone business.  Maybe we should go back to using the post office.  At least we can usually discover if a letter has been opened, or maybe they can read it without opening.  How about carrier pigeons?  I wonder if they used this to get Spitzer.

  •  Wonderful Advertisement (0+ / 0-)

    Boy! Wasn't that a awesome advertisement stuck right in the middle of the interview!

  •  COMPUTERS, FREEDOM, AND PRIVACY conference (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    chimpy, trinite

    18th Annual CFP conference
    May 20-23, 2008
    Omni Hotel
    New Haven, CT


    This election year will be the first to address US technology policy in the information age as part of our national debate. Candidates have put forth positions about technology policy and have recognized that it has its own set of economic, political, and social concerns. In the areas of privacy, intellectual property, cybersecurity, telecommunications, and freedom of speech, an increasing number of issues once confined to experts now penetrate public conversation. Our decisions about technology policy are being made at a time when the architectures of our information and communication technologies are still being built. Debate about these issues needs to be better-informed in order for us to make policy choices in the public interest.

    This year, the 18th annual Computers, Freedom, and Privacy conference will focus on what constitutes technology policy. CFP: Technology Policy '08 is an opportunity to help shape public debate on those issues being made into laws and regulations and those technological infrastructures being developed. The direction of our technology policy impacts the choices we make about our national defense, our civil liberties during wartime, the future of American education, our national healthcare systems, and many other realms of policy discussed more prominently on the election trail. Policies ranging from data mining and wiretapping, to file-sharing and open access, and e-voting to electronic medical records will be addressed by expert panels of technologists, policymakers, business leaders, and advocates.

    Open participation is invited for proposals on panels, tutorials, speaker suggestions, and birds of a feather sessions through the CFP: Technology Policy '08 submission at

    Suggested topics for discussion include:

    * Information Privacy * Anonymity Online * Government Transparency * Voting Technology * Online Campaigning * Social Networks * Citizen Journalism * Cybercrime & Cyberterrorism * Digital Education * Copyright and Fair Use * Patent Reform * Open Access * P2P Networks * Information Policy and Free Trade * Media Concentration * Genes & Bioethics * Electronic Medical Records * Web Accessibility * Open Standards * Network Neutrality * High-Speed Internet Access Policy * Freedom of Information * Technology Policy Administration

    Submission Deadlines:
    Panel, Tutorial, and Speaker proposals: March 21, 2008.
    Birds of a Feather Session (BoFs) proposals: April 21, 2008.

    Panel, Tutorial, and Speaker proposals accepted by the Program Committee will be notified by April 7, 2008.

    Registration available online

    Funding for Journalists

    The Yale Law School Law and Media Program (LAMP) announces an opportunity for journalists to receive full funding to attend CFP: Technology Policy '08.  CFP: Technology Policy '08 will begin with a full day of tutorials and programming specifically geared toward journalists writing about information technology and policy, followed by a networking reception for journalists and other participants in the Law and Media Program. Journalists writing on privacy, intellectual property, telecommunications and cyberlaw are encouraged to apply for conference funding, which will include travel, hotel, meals and any registration fees for the full conference.

    To apply, please send a cover letter explaining your interest in the program, along with your resume and three writing samples (by e-mail and hard copy) to Tracey Parr (, Yale Law School, P.O. Box 208215, New Haven, CT 06520-8215, by March 31, 2008. Up to twenty
    journalists will receive conference funding. Applicants accepted for conference funding will be notified by April 4, 2008.

    Eddan Katz
    Chair, CFP: Technology Policy '08
    International Affairs Director, Electronic Frontier Foundation
    Senior Fellow, Yale Information Society Project
    Lecturer and Associate Research Scholar, Yale Law School

    Keep your eyes on November, Frodo. Don't use The Ring.

    by ben masel on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 08:20:29 AM PDT

    •  Not official yet, but looks like (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      chimpy, trinite

      Sen. Feingold may keynote.

      Keep your eyes on November, Frodo. Don't use The Ring.

      by ben masel on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 08:22:38 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Maybe Spitzer would like to join him (0+ / 0-)

      I think this is the tip of the iceberg heading into election season Ben.  With what they have recorded they can continue to 'change the channel' whenever they want.  If they have Spitzer, then no one is safe.  Look at the press this thing has gotten.  One of these a month from now until the election.  We'll never hear an actual word uttered by their candidates.  They'll be squeezed off the front pages by this crap.

  •  Who pays ATT to build and run the sweep? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    chimpy, forgore

    Follow the money, that's our money.

    This is us governing. Live so that 100 years from now, someone might be proud of us.

    by marthature on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 08:22:52 AM PDT

    •  AT & T called me up to ask me questions (0+ / 0-)

      about what I thought of them.  They said it was a survey.

    •  No shit. that IS our money. (0+ / 0-)

      But if they can't/won't defund dumbass Iraq surges inot perpetuity, imagine our losers seeking to unfund "warrantless domestic spying".

      I am more & more convinced we need to bypass Congress all together - and start communicating with America citizen to citizen -- WE the people -- the forgotten branch of government.

      The method of communication would be TV/youtube... And the message would be a barrage of "ads" as instructional tidbits about what our govt does daily --- with a "Did you know that XYZ goes on every day right in your community?"

      And those producing these messages would be collaborative teams from epluribusmedia, TPM, foredoglake, dKos, DFA, moveon, etc.

      This would be relatively easy to do if we looked at this problem from the vantage point of outerspace looking back toward Earth. From that vabtage point, it is simple to see that resource allocation is all F*d up in American govt.

      Until we can complete the Dean 50-state strategy and push out and purge the whole Pelosi-feinstein class of old school politicians and replace them with real progressives out to actually do their jobs and get stuff done, vs "stay in office" as Job #1, we have to bypass this completely useless Congress. That's my conclusion watching the netroots/govt interaction since 2003.

      _ yes he is. >> * | *

      by rhfactor on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 08:39:33 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  The Dems are complicit. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    What other conclusion should I make?  I remember being so happy in 2006 that we had finally elected the Dems with a mandate for oversight...  Oh what a sham..

    The future isn't what it used be.

    by Beelzebud on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 08:26:05 AM PDT

    •  We've got to keep up the pressure (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      on elected officials.  We cannot give up.  Success only comes with persistence.

      •  sorry, there is no such thing as PRESSURE. the (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        only thing, it has come to pass, that impacts congressional members is ousting them by voting out. Sorry, but show me one single example in past 5 years where we ultimately WON a measure that all our MoveOn and WorkingAssets and TrueMajority sent us Action Alerts on "Tell your Senator to vote against Gonzales. This is IMPT!"

        Sorry, but what I have seen on occasion is a DELAY -- as with useless feinstein and retro immunity. But sure enough, when comes time for vote, despite us FLOODING her offices, both in DC and in SF with calls, emails, faxes, in person visits,it has NO BEARING at all on her.

        These people do not respond to our mobilizations.

        It;s time we get real with that and stop going through these exercises that give us the illusion of effectivenesss. These methods do not produce effective r3esults. We need to use media to communicate to America at large -- and -- at same time -- to publicly shame these officials -- but I mean really hard hitting ads.

        That's the domain where we will prove effective.

        It requires a RE-SET and re-think about what we do as a whole when we do action alerts.

        _ yes he is. >> * | *

        by rhfactor on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 08:45:44 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  boingboing = hypocrisy (0+ / 0-)

    I'm glad that is working to bring some attention to this issue, but as much as they talk a good game for openness and against censorship they really don't practice what they preach.  Try doing a search at boingboing for "th".  What you'll find is a long list of posts eviscerated by the moderators - they remove all the vowels from posts they disagree with.  (th = the with the e removed)  

    Boingboing would have a lot more credibility as defenders of free speech if they actually practiced it at home.

  •  Why hasn't he testified?? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    Because IF he testified, it would become clear that Congress would need to DO SOMETHING about the illegal wiretapping that goes on as we speak . . . and Congress already knows that the DoJ or the FBi won't do jackshit about it, and Mukasey won't do anything about it, and if Congress REALLY WANTED TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT . . . they'd impeach Bush & Cheney . . . but that's off the table.

    So they'd rather just masturbate, thanks.

    "we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex" Dwight D. Eisenhower

    by bobdevo on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 08:29:18 AM PDT

  •  He's not alone (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    A LOT of whistleblowers have been ignored by Congress.  But,  ignoring Klein surely is one of the more egregious oversights.  Overall, Congress' refusal to hear testimony from whistleblowers is more evidence that Congress has abdicated its oversight role.  

    What is needed is a law that requires investigation by a committee comprised equally of representatives from Congress and concerned citizen volunteers, drawn at random.

    Currently, the only formal structure provides for Executive Branch oversight of the Executive Branch by means of program managers and judges selected by the President or OPM.

    Speak the truth, but ride a fast horse.

    by Deep Harm on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 08:29:36 AM PDT

  •  Dodd for Senate Majority Leader (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    trinite, forgore

    Again, Dodd has shown unparalleled leadership. With all due respect for Feingold, Boxer and others, I can't think of anyone more capable of holding the current administration accountable for their treasonous abuses than Senator Dodd. What can we do, at the net-roots level, to persuade the Democratic party to replace Reid with someone who has demonstrated the intestinal fortitude to actually lead?

  •  Love it. (0+ / 0-)

    I dream of the day when I can get both my BoinbBoing and Kos fixes in one place. Good to see the crossover.

    "Hey, wait a minute, there's one guy holding up both puppets!" -Bill Hicks

    by Tismo70 on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 08:34:33 AM PDT

  •  Mark Klein, American hero. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    forgore, DontTaseMeBro

    George Bush, American zero.

    by Steve Everett on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 08:34:47 AM PDT

  •  Find the Narus...Locate the Tap (0+ / 0-)

    From the Wired article

    One of the documents listed the equipment installed in the secret room, and this list included a Narus STA 6400, which is a "Semantic Traffic Analyzer".

    Anyone do a search on the delivery numbers and sites receiving a Naurus?

    Beware the Will o'the Wisp. A lantern that leads to the edge of the chasm is not a true light...

    by portorcliff on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 08:36:36 AM PDT

  •  Rockefellers office was (0+ / 0-)

    very cool and aloof (go figure), Reyes office was gung ho go getter energized against spying on americans and giving immunity to the telecoms.

    Any man's death diminishes me because I am involved in mankind. Therefore, send not to know for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee. John Donne

    by scurrvydog on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 08:43:43 AM PDT

  •  Just called (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    Rockefeller and Durbin's office.

    "Virtue is more to be feared than vice, because its excesses are not subject to the regulation of conscience" --Adam Smith

    by BlackBox on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 08:46:12 AM PDT

  •  While they are at it (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    maybe Congress should finally give Sibel Edmonds a hearing too.

    At some point, the cover up is going to become worse than the crime, and the dems are going to find themselves in just as much hot water as the guilty parties in this administration.  How incredibly unwise it is for them to behave this way.

    "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." --Samuel Johnson

    by joanneleon on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 08:47:11 AM PDT

  •  Excellent point, thanks for Reminding us!! (0+ / 0-)

    ....the visual that Mark Klein painted of an internet backbone line being split off and then being fed into a secret room is a powerful one....

  •  I know this is sexist... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    ..but putting the meat of the story behind.  Is it just me or is Xeni HOT.  Add to the fact that she works in technology just makes my inner geek's heart beat a little faster.  :)

    She isn't as hot as my wife...but hey. :)

  •  Congress is too busy (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sistersilverwolf, DontTaseMeBro

    Interviewing baseball players on drugs.  

    Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity. Horace Mann (and btw, the bike in kayakbiker is a bicycle)

    by Kayakbiker on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 08:51:33 AM PDT

  •  Mark Klein DID go to Washington (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    looks like he was there around abouts Nov 8 of last year. According to news articles he was to testify in front of the House and Senate Judiciary committees (or staff) and hold a press conference. There was news coverage prior to his doing this, but i've only really been able to find post coverage of his press conference (and very little of that, mostly it looked like it was coverage of his subsequent interviews).

    Here are a few of links leading up to his appearance

    If someone has more accurate info about what exactly  happened that day (whether he actually testified, just met with Dodd's people, or just had a press conference) it would be much appreciated.

    Guil: So there you are. Ros: Stark raving sane. - T. Stoppard, Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead

    by eco d on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 08:54:55 AM PDT

    •  Klein went to lobby Washington last November (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      eco d

      but he was not invited by any committee to testify. He and the Electronic Frontier Foundation held a press conference in DC on Nov. 7. He got lots of media attention, including the Washington Post piece you linked to, and he was present in the audience when the Senate Judiciary Committee met on Nov. 8 with lots of press there. But the Senators ignored him and no committee invited him to testify.

  •  There is something up here. (0+ / 0-)

    The failure to move on this issue and just stop the FISA problems means to me that someone has got something on these dems.  Why else, when everyone seems to agree that this is a violation of the law?

    These guys are supposed to be representing us.  It feels like I gotta knock on the door for something so obvious that a layperson like me recognizes the danger.

    Sheesh.  Where is the sanity?

    (thanks for your constant attention to this!)

  •  The telephone companies operate with impunity (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    Whenever you talk to your friends and try to persuade them that the telephone companies don't deserve immunity, don't refer to them using the more technically accurate word telecom, use 'telephone company'. You'll get a more visceral reaction because most people hate the 'telephone company'. Telecom is neutral and you may even get a blank stare. It makes me think of one of those old telex machines.

    Which question do you think will get a better reaction?

    "Should the telecoms be given retroactive immunity?"


    "Bush wants to guarantee that the telephone companies can break the law with impunity. Should Congress give the 'telephone companies' retroactive immunity?"

    "Never have so few taken so much from so many for so long."

    by londubh on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 08:57:05 AM PDT

  •  What can a Naurus do? (0+ / 0-)

    From Daily Kos Commentor Bewert Post All About NSA's and AT&T's Big Brother Machine, the Narus 6400

    And what does it monitor while looking at this 10 billion bits of IP data per second? First lets take a look at what the network model is, the OSI model of seven layers. NarusInsight focuses on two layers: number four, the transport layer, built on standards like TCP and UDP, the physical building blocks of internet data traffic, and number seven, the application layer, built on standards like HTTP and FTP, which are dependent on the application using them, i.e. Internet Explorer, Kazaa, Skype, etc. It monitors 10 billion bits per second at level four and 2500 million bits per second at level seven. For reference, the 256K DSL line I am using equals .25 million bits per second. So one NarusInsight machine can look at about 39,000 DSL lines at once in great detail. That is a pretty damn big number. This is some really serious hardware with equally serious software. Which is our next subject.

    39,000 lines all at once! Massive power.

    So what exactly is done to and with this data? That's kind of a grey area, so let's try to find what we can. The starting point is called the Internet Protocol Detail Record, which Narus helped found. From that FAQ I just linked to, we learn that

    IPDR stands for the Internet Protocol Detail Record, the name comes from the traditional telecom term CDR (Call Detail Record), used to record information about usage activity within the telecom infrastructure (such as a call completion).

    NDM-U stands for Network Data Management - Usage. It refers to a functional operation within the Telecom Management Forum's Telecom Operations Map. The NDM function collects data from devices and services in a service providers network. Usage refers to the type of data which is the focus of this document.

    Call Detail Records are one of the results from standard police investigation requests to telcoms.

    An Internet Protocol Detail Record is the Internet equal.

    This data flows right into NarusInsight Intercept Suite, which enables

    Packet-level, flow-level, and application-level usage information is captured and analyzed as well as raw user session packets for forensic analysis, surveillance or in satisfying regulatory compliance for lawful intercept.

    The Lawful Intercept module offers carriers and service providers compliance with regulatory requirements regarding lawful intercept. The Lawful Intercept module provides an end-to-end solution consisting of Administration, Access and Delivery functions. The Lawful Intercept module is compliant with CALEA and ETSI standards. It can be seamlessly integrated with third party products for testing/validation or as a complete law enforcement solution.

    The Directed Analysis module seamlessly integrates with NarusInsight Secure Suite or other DDoS, intrusion or anomaly detection systems, securely providing analysts with real-time, surgical targeting of suspect information (from flow to application to full packets). The Directed Analyis module provides industry standard formats and offers tools for archival and integration with third party investigative tools.

    These capabilities include playback of streaming media (i.e. VoIP), rendering of web pages, examination of e-mail and the ability to analyze the payload/attachments of e-mail or file transfer protocols. Narus partner products offer the ability to quickly analyze information collected by the Directed Analysis or Lawful Intercept modules. When Narus partners' powerful analytic tools are combined with the surgical targeting and real-time collection capabilities of Directed Analysis and Lawful Intercept modules, analysts or law enforcement agents are provided capabilities that have been unavailable thus far.

    Did I just read that naurus can Reconstruct and playback specific web pages, streaming media and examination of email.


    Beware the Will o'the Wisp. A lantern that leads to the edge of the chasm is not a true light...

    by portorcliff on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 09:03:59 AM PDT

  •  Spitzer Tap (0+ / 0-)

    Spitzer has had a hell of a good record fighting corruption and I really could give a shit about prostitution involving consensual adults.  What should concern us all is how Democrats think they are gaining the upper hand when the NSA and the judicial have the power to use wiretaps to destroy opposing politicians, while other evidence showing Republican corruption can be destroyed and hidden.

  •  HILARIOUS..that Verizon is the sponsor (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    of the interview in this video. What irony.

    Verizon hit with $20bn wiretapping lawsuit
    21st February 2006
    By Staff Writer
    The largest telecoms company in the US, Verizon Communications Inc, has been hit with a class action lawsuit after a lawyer alleged that it has illegally collaborated with a wiretapping operation conducted by one of the most secretive intelligence agencies in the US.

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