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The views of a pastor are the views of a pastor.  Are Catholics running for office supposed to "renounce" their church based on any controversial political messages of the Pope (and Catholics are "supposed" to follow what the Pope says, while no one is ever expected to follow pastors in that way)?   Who would treat Jews this way based on the political views of a rabbi?  

Once we get real - stepping away from this dirty little racist game of "gotcha" which actually "gets" nothing at all about the lived life of the person - and look at ACTIONS and the tangible experience of the person toward others, then Hillary Clinton is standing in very deep stuff, having been historically involved with and now currently working with, one of the most despicable organizations on the face of the earth.  

Rather than play such nonsense games as to go after someone's pastor, let's take religious principles seriously.

The Catholic Church has seven new mortal sins, the first among them - genetic engineering.

Hillary Clinton's involvement with Monsanto, world's largest genetic engineering corporation, presents an ethical and religious dilemma for faithful Catholics.

Hillary Clinton has long-term and current ties with Monsanto.  Her campaign is run by, Mark Penn, CEO of Burson-Masteller, a PR firm for Monsanto.  http://www.sourcewatch.org/...  

MMonsanto may be unfamiliar to most.  But it is the driving force behind laws to ban labeling of milk, http://www.nytimes.com/...  
http://blog.wired.com/... 2008/01/indiana-may-ban.html  

http://consumerist.com/... monsanto-is-trying-to-ban-hormone-labeling-at-the-state-level
http://www.organicconsumers.org/...  
http://www.healthfreedomusa.org/...  asiseeit.austin360blogs.com/entry. aspx?q=fa79c216-76f3-465f-91cc-9a5f016acaee   ga3.org/campaign/Ohio_rBGH3

- genetically engineered (GE) food, cloned meat, sues has sued farmers for honest labeling; Ben and Jerry's has fought them for years to label their ice cream rBGH-free.

Monsanto is an immense presence in our lives, without most of us having ever heard of it.

(1) GENETIC MODIFICATION

"Pope John Paul II said ... using genetically modified organisms to increase production was contrary to God's will.  He told farmers worldwide to

"resist the temptation of high productivity and profit that work to the detriment of the respect of nature ... when (farmers) forget this basic principle and become tyrants of the earth rather than its custodians ... sooner or later the earth rebels. ... [Iif modern farming techniques} don't reconcile themselves with the simple language of nature in a healthy balance, the life of man will run ever greater risks, of which already we are seeing worrying signs."

http://online.sfsu.edu/...

Others agree:

"The large-scale release of transgenic organisms is much worse than nuclear weapons or radioactive nuclear wastes, as genes can replicate indefinitely, spread and recombine. There may yet be time enough to stop the industry's dreams of turning into nightmares if we act now, before the critical genetic 'melt-down' is reached." -- Mae-Wan Ho

"I never imagined people would patent plants and animals. It's fundamentally immoral ... That violates the integrity of life itself, and our deepest sense of morality." -- President, Guaymi General Congress

http://home.clara.net/...

"GMOs threaten Kenya’s environment. ... We believe that God created life, and no one can own it, not even Monsanto ..."  
The Thika Declaration on GMOs. Statement from the Kenya Small Scale Farmers http://www.grain.org/...

(2) HUMAN EXPERIMENTATIONS

Monsanto is conducting the largest biologic experiment in the history of the world, on all its people, without their knowledge or consent.

 

In blocking labeling - at state, national and international level - Monsanto is performing global experimentation on millions of people, who, in being prevented from knowing, are prevented from escaping.

Ethical Guidelines for Biotechnology:  

"Responsibility for future generations requires maintaining the genetic integrity of all peoples and not using or studying their genes or those of their indigenous species without their express permission, truly informed consent and suitable compensation."  

http://environmentalcommons.org/cetos/articles/codeethics.html

"Transgenes transferred into the wider environment cannot be tracked down ...  A ripple effect on other species will take place, even if it cannot be predicted when such an effect will occur, to what extent, or in which species." -- Ricarda A Steinbrecher

"... [T]hese newly introduced microbial proteins is uncertain, unpredictable and untestable." -- Dr Nestle

http://home.clara.net/...

Marc Lappe, ethicist: ... [T]he major issue ... often missed in informed consent, ... that goes back to the Nuremberg Code: you can't ask somebody for informed consent unless they're freely situated to give that consent. ...[I]n this country, and particularly in other countries ... being bound ... to take [GE] food crops without disclosure ...they are doing so, people are not ...[free] to say yes or no."  http://www.21stcenturyradio.com/...

Monsanto knows people have refused consent.  From a leaked internal Monsanto report:  "There is substantial opposition from the public, from the media, and not least, from retailers."

(3) POLLUTING THE ENVIRONMENT

Monsanto made PCBs.  The Great Lakes areas is heavily polluted, fish, shellfish contaminated.  PCBs, highest in cities, are detected up to north of the Arctic Circle.

Animals eating PCB-contaminated food get liver damage, has led to emaciated seabird corpses washing up on beaches, 400,000 birds dead from poultry-feed in Japan, polar bears, whales developing both sex organs, males unable to reproduce, serious reproductive risk to top predators.

In humans: systemic poisoning, liver damage, Yusho Disease, dermal and ocular lesions, unusual skin sores, poor cognitive development in children, altered estrogen levels and menstrual cycles, feminization of male embryos, intersex babies,, babies with male and female organs, cancers, and more ....
http://en.wikipedia.org/...

Washington Post:  "For nearly 40 years, while producing ... PCBs... in Anniston, Alabama, Monsanto Co. routinely discharged toxic waste into a ... creek and dumped millions of pounds of PCBs into oozing open-pit landfills. ... [T]housands of pages of Monsanto documents -- many emblazoned with warnings such as "CONFIDENTIAL: Read and Destroy" -- show that for decades, the corporate giant concealed what it did and what it knew.

... Monsanto managers discovered that fish submerged in that creek turned belly-up within 10 seconds, spurting blood and shedding skin as if dunked into boiling water. They told no one. ... [T]hey found fish ... with 7,500 times the legal PCB levels. They decided "there is little object in going to expensive extremes in limiting discharges." ... [A] company study found that PCBs caused tumors in rats. They ordered its conclusion changed from "slightly tumorigenic" to "does not appear to be carcinogenic."  

http://www.commondreams.org/...

(4) SOCIAL INJUSTICE

Monsanto uses large-scale child-labour in Indian cottonseed production.  An estimated-17,000 children, mostly girls, work ... ten to thirteen hours a day for ... Monsanto and their ... subsidiary Mahyco, getting no education, earning less than 40 Eurocents ... a day, exposed to poisonous pesticides like Endosulphan.

http://www.indiaresource.org/...

Millions of Vietnamese are suing Monsanto, maker of Agent Orange, for suffering, disfigurement, deaths.  Vietnam vets are suing for effects from exposure.

Monsanto "drenched" Anniston, Alabama, a working-class town, in PCBs and hid dangers for decades.  http://www.commondreams.org/...

" ... any farmer that buys their seed may not do research on the seed, may not resell the seed or give it away or provide it for their own family's use the next year if they want to replant the seed that they get from this years crop. ... This ... complete hegemony and control over a patented seed type ... violates the norms by which agriculture has been practiced over the millennia. ....

"... Monsanto has Pinkerton Guards going on crop fields ...  a hotline in the Mid-west where farmers can ... report on their neighbors .... It's a terrible draconian system.
.... through satellites they can monitor already now who is doing what. And the idea is control.  http://www.21stcenturyradio.com/...

... there is ... danger of relying of an increasing small number of genetic types for ... crops [The Irish potato famine taught that lesson.]. .... suddenly instead of having 38 ... varieties of soybeans ... [t]he farmer today no longer has a choice  ... The objective of Monsanto is to completely convert the soybean crop from it's present 50% transgenic or genetically engineered mix to 100% ...."

http://www.21stcenturyradio.com/...

Monsanto currently holds 647, the most plant biotech patents.  Their Technology Agreement enforcing those patents "opens farmers' books and fields to virtually limitless scrutiny and incursion."  

Monsanto employee told one farmer, “We own you- we own anybody that buys our Roundup Ready products.”   http://www.planetark.com/...

(5) CAUSING POVERTY

Monsanto patents its GE-seeds, claiming everything from them as "intellectual property."   They have investigated 1000s of farmers and sued many.

Farmers found in violation of the agreement face huge liability.  Bankruptcy is common, farmers losing land in their family for generations. http://www.planetark.com/...

One man said “When they [investigators] came up here, they were bragging to other farmers about all of the farmers they had put out of business.

"Farmers are being sued for having GMOs on their property that they did not buy, do not want, will not use and cannot sell," says Tom Wiley, a North Dakota farmer

http://www.mindfully.org/...

... [A]ny farmer.. [planting] a Roundup-ready-crop has to pay an $8.00 per acre fee directly back to the company that makes the seed.

For some other crops, they pay technology fees of up to $32.00 per acre. ... outrageous prices for ... farmers in other countries to pay, much less the premium that they're already paying for the seed.

... these genetically manipulated seeds, particularly ... ones ... treated with an antibiotic ... [and] no longer can produce itself after ... one ... season, ... can kill off the natural seed bank in neighboring fields that farmers depend on for their - not only their livelihood, but just to stay alive.

....  people think ... [killing off] the weed is the advantage -- not realizing ... you're killing off a ... part of the ecosystem that supports life on earth .... causing ecosystem disruption on a gross scale and beneath the soil, we believe, ... also annihilating hoards of the key microbacteria and mycorhizzia fungal species ....  needed to keep ... soil healthy to allow plants to grow in the future. http://www.21stcenturyradio.com/...  

http://www.21stcenturyradio.com/...

(6) FINANCIAL GLUTTONY

"Monsanto enjoyed a lucrative four-decade monopoly on PCB production in the United States, and battled to protect that monopoly long after PCBs were confirmed as a global pollutant.  "We can't afford to lose one dollar of business," one internal memo concluded. http://www.commondreams.org/...

"Of course, another major concern (of genetic engineering) is monopolies. The entire industry instead of being controlled by the small farmer and by consumer choice, is being dominated by corporate greed."  Marc Lappe http://www.21stcenturyradio.com/...

[T]he biotechnology industry has been promoted on ... a very false and misleading premise: that the objective of this science is to feed the world. The initial objective of this science is clearly to line the pockets of the major corporations who design these products to tolerate and accept over-sprays of the chemical herbicides that they themselves produce. It had nothing to do with feeding the world. The initial yields of these products were less than the conventional yields ....  http://www.21stcenturyradio.com/...

"It is clear that everyone is in it for the money. The risks can be dismissed by appealing to the benefits, and when the benefits are not forthcoming, the promises have to be kept alive. Biotechnology is the South Sea Bubble at the end of the millennium. -- Mae-Wan Ho  http://home.clara.net/...

(7) TAKING DRUGS

Causing to be taken?

Aspartame is an addictive www.aspartame.ca/page_a13.htm  and dangerous drug.   http://www.rense.com/...  During the Clinton Administration, Monsanto controlled FDA, approved Aspartame for use as sugar despite strong medical opposition.  http://www.youtube.com/...
rBGH is a drug, and yet Monsanto prevents us from knowing where it is so it can be avoided.  A 2007 FDA citizens petition has linked it to a 7-fold increase in breast cancer risk.  
http://www.sustdev.org/...  
The same year, a Monsanto-connected law firm http://www2.wabash.edu/...  pushed a law to limit FDA citizens petitions.  http://www.fdalawblog.net/...

Banned for athletes as a dangerous drug, Monsanto makes steroids for animals which show up in our food.  

Monsanto "pushing" drugs on the entire population through our food.

Monsanto commits all 7 mortal sins and on a massive and global scale.

Hillary Clinton claims time in the White White as part of her 35 years of experience.  She was either part of Monsanto's actions there or was silent.  She has never renounced any portion.

Hillary Clintons' deep ties to Monsanto present a major religious dilemma for Catholics.  

... and for anyone with ethical or religious principles.

Originally posted to Scaredhuman on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 02:59 PM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

  •  This story needs to be pushed harder! (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    egmacrae, marykk, allie123

    Hillary is a Skrull

    by LoLoLaLa on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 03:02:29 PM PDT

  •  I'm not sure I'd blame it on Hillary (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Ice Blue

    (and please, let's keep our eyes on the prize and not let the party self-destruct) but this is a very important story.  The pronouncement from the Vatican gives the dems some great opportunities to set out an agenda that will respond to these concerns and remains consistent with traditional Dem values.

    If you think you're too small to be effective, you've never been in the dark with a mosquito.

    by marykk on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 03:07:00 PM PDT

    •  You always (0+ / 0-)

      seem to say don't blame it on Hillary. If Hillary is being bank rolled by Monsanto then she IS responsible for Monsanto policies and practices.

      What goes around,comes around.

      by munodi on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 03:23:27 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  doesn't Obama have a Monsanto Lobbyist on his (0+ / 0-)

        campaign?

        •  If he does show me (0+ / 0-)

          I'd like to know

          What goes around,comes around.

          by munodi on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 03:48:49 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

            •  Good, because everyone needs to be held to (0+ / 0-)

              account about Monsanto.  But it's critical to notice the difference as well, in terms of length of involvement and anything that may have come out of it.  

              Read http://www.dailykos.com/...
              to see that Hillary's connections go back 30 years.  

              Notice, as well, what the Clintons have already done for Monsanto during Bill's presidency and against the American people:

              *  appointing Monsanto people to the FDA (Taylor, Miller, to name just two)

              *  introduction of the first GE-product ever approved by FDA - Monsanto's  rBGH for dairy cows

              *  ignoring clear and major problems with it - sick and dead cows

              *  Miller allowing (or ordering) a 100 times increase in antibiotics to mask the illness

              *  not warning it was being used

              *  not labeling it (here's where the non-labeling of milk began)

              *  threatening farmers with confiscation of products if they labeled

              * attempting to alter organic standards to include GE-foods and cloned meat (both for Monsanto's benefit)

              scuttling of the 1996 BioSafety protocol

              So, the Clintons (she claims that time as part of her 35 years of experience) introduced genetic engineering and then undid the international agreement to keep the world safe and then kept the public in the dark about which things were genetically engineered, while aggressively pushing GE-crops on the US and internationally, despite strong resistance.

              She has never denounced any of that.  That is being in deep with Monsanto.

              And her call for a Department of Food Safety is headed toward centralizing food even more and easy to expect it will be into Monsanto's hands again.  Yet

              "food safety" is used by Big Ag to impose regulations that crush small farmers who are not responsible for the diseases in the first place.  

              With 32,000 hogs a day slaughtered at the Smithfield Plant in Tar Heel, NC, there is no way to stop the splashing of fecal matter on everything.  They want to speed that up to 39,000 a day.

              It is not family farmers creating e-coli contamination and disgusting Sinclair Lewis conditions for American food but family farmers who are overwhelmed more each time new USDA regulations come down - which do NOT address the slaughterhouse conditions because the corporations run the USDA.

              When Monsanto owns the corn and soy used in feed and Tyson runs animal factories that grind them up into feed, you are looking at Big Ag creating Mad Cow and selling it.  Under Clinton, KNOWN Mad Cow material was ALLOWED in pet food, and fish and pig and chicken feed, only keeping it from cows and ruminants.  For sure Bush hasn't banned it further.

              It is not the family farmer who mixed sick animals into feed but their stocks get wiped out in a scare and they are least able to restock or come back from that.

              The giant feed lots where they shoot cattle so full of steroids their organs fall out and have to be shoved back in and stitched to be kept there, that's Monsanto's steroids, and Big Ag's lots.  That's where they have to give vast amounts of antibiotics to try to counter the filth the animals live in.

              It's not the family farmer who doing that but the family farmer who is scared that NAIS - the National Animal Identification System - pushed by Monsanto and Cargill and the big meat packers, who fears it will be used

              1) to shift liability for diseases the rancher or farmer didn't cause, to them,
              2) by Monsanto to know what still "normal" animals are out there and monitor them in ways beneficial to Monsanto plans,
              3) by Big Ag to chill the burgeoning interest in small farming because it is so onerous and intrusive of privacy,
              4) to push farmers and ranchers over the edge into giving up their livelihood.  

              Number 2 is the most disturbing in terms already knowing about the truly totalitarian level of control Monsanto is gaining over agriculture in general, and it is doing something very similar to NAIS with normal seeds, seeking laws to know exactly what varieties there still are, who has them, and pushing regulations that are enormously onerous and intrusive.

              It's Monsanto and Big Ag who are pushing to change "grassfed" to mean "sometimes" and "naturally raised" to mean  to include even cloned animals who never stepped outside a day in their lives.  

              It's the family farmer who raises his animals cleanly on grass and gives them decent lives who must compete against that giant lie.

              It's the giant poultry factories that are now linked to Bird Flu, the contaminated waste from them spread on fields,.

              It's the little local Asian farmers whose stocks get wiped out and who are being pushed to replace them with GE-chickens.  As in "rent a chicken" just as Monsanto has created "rent a seed" with patents on seeds.  

              The Rose Law Firm where Hillary began, represents Tysons and Monsanto, the largest meat producer and largest genetic engineering corporations in the world, full of favors to get Bill into office, full of donations now to Hillary.  And the favors flowed like putrid fecal matter to those corporations during Bill's term.  

              She was there.  She claims that time as experience.  She has never denounced any part of the massive things they did to food or farmers or to nature.

              Last year, citizens filed a petition listing at least 30 scientific journals that indicated that milk from Monsanto's rBGH in dairy cows is associated with a 7-fold increase in breast cancer risk.  Coincidentally, a law firm that represents Monsanto is pushing a law at the same time to limit citizens' petition.  Not enough to control the FDA itself,  it seems, so Monsanto is now trying to make sure that no input about its products, from anywhere, can reach anywhere.  

              Family farmers, our last best hope of honesty and at least avoiding risks, have been sued for saying their milk is rBGH-free.  

              If Hillary is in trouble for her relation with Monsanto, let Obama be forewarned.  That's all good.  Let all the politicians be forewarned.

              •  so you're saying all of her experience (0+ / 0-)

                is valid? interesting. i'm not going to hold Hillary responsible for all of Monsanto's ills anymore than i'll hold Obama responsible for the ills caused by Monsanto and others as part of the Global Poverty Act and anything else he's done in the past that may or may not connect him to an evil AG company. the idea is to get them to STOP.

                do you have a link on the Breast Cancer? the DK link doesn't work.

                did you ever go through and fact check that open letter? and have you thoroughly vetted Obama on all these issues? including his state senate days, shadowy k-street lobbyists, connnections with big AG and how his state has or hasn't benefited? his history with corn ethanol? Cheney Energy Bill? his support for NAIS? his authoring and push to get the Global Poverty Act through the Senate? all 'donations' he's received from ag/others over the past 10 or so yrs?

                http://www.govtrack.us/...

                and i am familiar on the dif between family farms and large producers. i'm meeting with one of mine in the AM  ;)

                •  Thanks for writing. I hold Hillary responsible (0+ / 0-)

                  for things that happened during Bill's term that she claims as part of her experience and for never renouncing any of it.

                  It is great that you are on top of Obama's stuff.  I am coming at things from another angle, figuring it is critical to expose Monsanto and its political connections and make it hard for politicians to be close to them without the stench affecting them, too.  In that way, whatever I am doing about Hillary and Monsanto is meant as a warning to other politicians as well.

                  In fact, my fear was she would be defeated so quickly, there wouldn't be room to use her past connections to Monsanto to expose Monsanto itself and thus put pressure on Obama, too.

                  Here is the link.  http://www.sustdev.org/...  It works for me, hope it does for you.  I'm written them, hoping to hear back with details of the journals they used to make their argument in the petition.

                  My feeling is that 1) any risk is too much since normal milk has none and 2) that I see the FDA run by Monsanto which is using every means possible to distort science there for its purposes and now to block citizens petitions to it.

                  I agree, the point is to stop Monsanto and Big Ag.  So, I hope you will understand I am taking one thread that is personal to me (Hillary and Monsanto) and pulling hard on that, and not trying to come at the whole cloth but believing that if one part can be affected, it will help undo the rest.  

                  So, please, go after Obama with all you know.  That's great.  

                  And I'll do what I can do with the piece.  

                  I have said from the beginning that I am not an Obama supporter.  I only know he isn't in as deep as Clinton with Monsanto and what matters to me is what Monsanto is doing to the whole world.  I hold her accountable for helping them at all.  And for being with them now.

                  Thanks a lot for writing.  

      •  You talkin' to me? (0+ / 0-)

        'cause I don't even play in the primary wars diaries.  

        If you think you're too small to be effective, you've never been in the dark with a mosquito.

        by marykk on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 03:45:04 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  look...BHO - HRC Pro Choice (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    DWKING, Ice Blue

    lost cause to Catholics from the git-go...except that Catholics vote overwhelmingly for Democrats.  Why?  We are the American Catholic Church and have never listened to the Vatican since the discovery of the pill.

    "I do think it is kind of sad when everybody who owns a laptop thinks they are Thomas Paine" Redlief take on Helen Thomas, 2008

    by redlief on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 03:10:26 PM PDT

  •  While I agree... (0+ / 0-)

    ...Monsanto, in a just society, would be considered criminal, However, I don't agree to tying a legitimate area of research and development in genetic modification to the unrelated nature of corporate greed and manipulation. Nor, would I look to the catholic church for judgements on issues of science.
    Very careful scrutiny and strict monitoring of genetic engineering research must be maintained.  And extensive research must be done before any genetically modified organism is introduced into the environment.  Further, the patent laws surrounding living organisms must be reevaluated by congress to eliminate the abuse by the corporations such as Monsanto, ADM or others; as patent law is the constitutional prerogative of congress the abuse can be stopped there.

    Liberalism is trust of the people tempered by prudence. Conservatism is distrust of the people tempered by fear." W.E. Gladstone -8.25 / -5.64

    by carver on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 03:32:42 PM PDT

    •  Yes, but... (0+ / 0-)

      ... "careful scrutiny and strict monitoring" hasn't so far guaranteed that unapproved GMOs won't be accidentally released in the environment.   Remember Starlink corn?   GM contamination is as bad as ever, and unapproved GM products are still escaping into the environment.

      Unapproved Biotech corn grown in Iowa (Des Moines Register, Feb 2008)

      Agribusiness and "scientific research" can't be self-policing on this issue.  Ethics has a place alongside science here, and I'm fine with the church  having (or would Obama say buying?) a seat at the table.

  •  Obama and Monsanto? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    empathy

    http://www.govtrack.us/...

    12/7/2007--Introduced.
    Global Poverty Act of 2007 - Directs the President, through the Secretary of State, to develop and implement a comprehensive strategy to further the U.S. foreign policy objective of promoting the reduction of global poverty, the elimination of extreme global poverty, and the achievement of the United Nations Millennium Development Goal of reducing by one-half the proportion of people worldwide, between 1990 and 2015, who live on less than $1 per day.

    http://www.business-humanrights.org/...

    The Millennium Task forces are...multi-disciplinary, with strong representation from the public, private and not-for-profit sectors...The UN invited Unilever, Norsk Hydro, Time-Warner and Monsanto, representing the food, fertiliser, communication and seed industries, to serve on the taskforce on Hunger.

    http://www.unmillenniumproject.org/...

  •  I don't care what (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Translator

    the Catholic Church's stance is on any scientific matter; in fact, I haven't since they imprisoned Galileo ;-)

    It's not the tragedies that kill us; it's the messes--Dorothy Parker

    by Libertaria on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 03:51:38 PM PDT

    •  I am with you about Galileo but while (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      marykk

      you may not care what Catholics say about science since that rather awful time, Catholics care about these quite important ethical issues.  Yet, they have been voting for Hillary Clinton when, as I hope to show, it is a large contradiction to their core values, to do so given her association with one of the most evil organizations on earth.

      The issues raised by Catholics' new seven mortal sins reflect many deep progressive values as well - human rights, justice, environmental, poverty, etc.  And their stance on genetic engineering is quite good and clear, and is reflected by many cultures who are suffering from what Monsanto is doing.

      Thanks for writing.

  •  First, let me say that (0+ / 0-)

    I am not a big fan of Monsanto, and I do not own any Monsanto stock.

    With that said, I would like to know why you insist of repeating the lie (yes, lie, because I already pointed out the inaccuracy of the statement in a comment to a previous diary of yours, so now it is a lie) that Monsanto developed aspartame?  And now you claim that the FDA under Bill Clinton approved it.  This is not so.

    GD Searle developed aspartame while Donald Rumsfeld was CEO of Searle.  The FDA, under Jimmy Carter, rejected the application for approval for aspartame.  After the first Bush was elected, Searle reapplied and Bush's FDA commissioner approved it.  Monsanto later bought Searle.

    Your disregard for simple, easily verifiable facts make everything you say suspect, especially after your previous error was pointed out.  You have crossed the line from simply misinformed to outright lying.  No regards, Doc.

    Sometimes I feel like Robert Louis Stevenson created me. -6.25, -6.05

    by Translator on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 04:54:26 PM PDT

    •  I apologize for an error on my part. (0+ / 0-)

      It was FDA under Reagan, not Bush, that approved aspartame.  I have tried to block Reagan from my mind so long that it obviously has worked.  Once again, I apologize for the error.

      Sometimes I feel like Robert Louis Stevenson created me. -6.25, -6.05

      by Translator on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 05:00:30 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I had hoped your apology was for how you (0+ / 0-)

        spoke to me.

        No need to apologize about saying Bush and not Reagan.  It's okay to make a mistake.  We all do that.  That can be corrected.  

        It's not okay to attack someone.  Not so easy to correct.  Damage can be done. Whether you are right or wrong, it's unnecessary.

        Monsanto owned Searle by the time the Clintons got in.  

        Aspartame had been approved for certain uses but not yet for use as a sugar.  That happened under Clinton.  Despite strong medical objections.

        And that was the same time there was Monsanto-run-FDA effort to keep Stevia, a natural sweetener NOT owned by Monsanto, and which had 900+ studies showing it to be entirely harmless, out of the country.

    •  Careful reading might spare you the embarrassment (0+ / 0-)

      of speaking so harshly to someone writing perfectly accurately.  Read my past responses on this repeated accusation.

      Monsanto bought Searle and thus they owned Aspartame during the Clinton administration, during which time they controlled the FDA, and succeeded in getting it blanket approval to be used as a sugar.  I did not mention and do not care who developed it.  I care about the time period during which the Clintons and Monsanto did a number of very serious things to threaten health in the US.

      Even were I wrong, how you are speaking to me, is just not a good way to deal with anyone.  In the lengthy, serious things I am writing about, to leap on one thing (and wrongly, it turns out) to the exclusion of the endless number of true and accurate things, and not have a sense of the whole, misses everything that should have easily kept you from calling me a liar, and especially an intentional one.  

      Even had you been right about the fact, such an approach to anyone is so wrong in itself.  I am writing sincerely and with a great deal of work behind what I am doing.  I am happy to respond to any concerns you have (if I check back and see it) and to correct anything I may have gotten wrong, appreciating when you or anyone else bring things to my attention.  

      Shall we proceed like that?  

      •  I will give you high marks for (0+ / 0-)

        defending your position, and actually I agree with you on many points.  However, stating that Monsanto developed aspartame is incorrect.  To present that as a fact and then to say that you did not mention and do not care who developed it is a lie in the did not mention area, and I am sure that you do not care because it does not support your dishonest position.

        Fact:  Searle discovered aspartame in 1965.
        Fact:  FDA rejected approval of aspartame in 1980 (under Carter).
        Fact:  FDA approved aspartame first in 1981 for dry goods (under Reagan).
        Fact:  FDA approved aspartame for carbonated beverages (by far the largest use even today) in 1983 (under Reagan)
        Fact:  FDA removed all restrictions from aspartame in 1996 (under Clinton).

        May we review?  Rejected under Carter, approved for around 95% of current market use under Reagan, cleared for the other 5% under Clinton.  By the way, Monsanto sold its interest in aspartame in 2000.  So, Monsanto did not develop it, did not get it approved, and finally sold it off because it was not in their business plan.

        Back to my initial point.  I think that your sincerely are doing what you think is good work, but your methods are atrocious.  Distorting facts to suit your purpose at hand is never defensible.  We see way too much of that from the Republicans.  If you will become less attached emotionally and more attached with fair statements about the facts, you will further your cause much more than descending into what is truly propaganda.  And I pointed it out to you weeks ago that your were spreading inaccurate information.  You chose to continue to do so.

        Insofar as my alleged harsh treatment of you goes, I just have a very low tolerance for people who spread misinformation, which you do on a regular basis.  I homed in on aspartame because it is relatively easy to research, and is well sourced.  If I were to choose to look at other parts of your arguments, based on your very poor coverage of aspartame, I suspect that much of it is untrue as well.

        High marks for your passion, very low ones for your accuracy.  Doc.

        Sometimes I feel like Robert Louis Stevenson created me. -6.25, -6.05

        by Translator on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 05:48:01 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  You are still missing what I actually wrote. (0+ / 0-)

          I never said Monsanto developed Aspartame.  That is not the issue at hand, but what they did with it AFTER they bought Searle, and DURING the Clinton Administration.  If anything, I am extremely precise about a particular period that has not been focused on.  

          You keep trying to tell the basic story of the development of Aspartame.  I don't care about that.  I care about one slice of history that to do with Monsanto's ownership of Aspartame, their control of the FDA when it got another level of approval, and that that happened while Bill and Hillary were in the White House.  

          I was accurate.  You were mistaken in your reading of what I wrote.  And you continue to be critical in a way that is global and unpleasant it doesn't help anything.

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